Simple outline of "end time events" vs. "what"?

[jabcat]

Here's the "mainstream" view as I interpret it and understand it...somebody please provide some other thoughts and A SIMPLE, STRAIGHTFORWARD OUTLINE AS YOU UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURE.

According to mainstream, starting right now, we're headed toward....

1.  The "End Times", things getting worse and worse, "great falling away".
2.  The "rapture"
3.  7 year tribulation, revival of Temple Worship, AntiChrist, etc.
4.  Jesus physically returns with saints who are already in heaven!? and does battle somehow with Satan's armies (Armageddon)
5.  Satan defeated, unsaved thrown into hell
6.  Jesus reigns ON EARTH 1,000 years
7.  Satan released, does battle again (against who/what?)
8.  Satan defeated again
9.  Saved (back?) to heaven, unsaved to hell, "forever".

Somewhere in there, there's a mark of the beast, 2 witnesses seen on CNN, Jesus physically stands on Mt. Olive and ALL eyes see him, there's a resurrection or 2, and a judgment or 2 in which a literal Book of Life is read and eveyone's sins announced....

Within this belief system that mainstream has, besides the basic accuracy-to-scripture aspect, seems to me there are things that don't fit, i.e., back and forth to and from heaven, how many resurrections, re-establishment of Temple Worship...  :mshock:. 

Thanks, James.

[martincisneros]

Farewell to the Rapture
By: N.T. Wright

Little did Paul know how his colorful metaphors for Jesus' second coming would be misunderstood two millennia later.

The American obsession with the second coming of Jesus — especially with distorted interpretations of it — continues unabated. Seen from my side of the Atlantic, the phenomenal success of the Left Behind books appears puzzling, even bizarre¹. Few in the U.K. hold the belief on which the popular series of novels is based: that there will be a literal "rapture" in which believers will be snatched up to heaven, leaving empty cars crashing on freeways and kids coming home from school only to find that their parents have been taken to be with Jesus while they have been "left behind." This pseudo-theological version of Home Alone has reportedly frightened many children into some kind of (distorted) faith.

This dramatic end-time scenario is based (wrongly, as we shall see) on Paul's First Letter to the Thessalonians, where he writes: "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first; then we, who are left alive, will be snatched up with them on clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

What on earth (or in heaven) did Paul mean?

It is Paul who should be credited with creating this scenario. Jesus himself, as I have argued in various books, never predicted such an event². The gospel passages about "the Son of Man coming on the clouds" (Mark 13:26, 14:62, for example) are about Jesus' vindication, his "coming" to heaven from earth. The parables about a returning king or master (for example, Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem, not about Jesus returning to earth. This, Jesus seemed to believe, was an event within space-time history, not one that would end it forever.

The Ascension of Jesus and the Second Coming are nevertheless vital Christian doctrines³, and I don't deny that I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within God's new creation. This is taught throughout the New Testament outside the Gospels. But this event won't in any way resemble the Left Behind account. Understanding what will happen requires a far more sophisticated cosmology than the one in which "heaven" is somewhere up there in our universe, rather than in a different dimension, a different space-time, altogether.

The New Testament, building on ancient biblical prophecy, envisages that the creator God will remake heaven and earth entirely, affirming the goodness of the old Creation but overcoming its mortality and corruptibility (e.g., Romans 8:18-27; Revelation 21:1; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22). When that happens, Jesus will appear within the resulting new world (e.g., Colossians 3:4; 1 John 3:2).

Paul's description of Jesus' reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brightly colored version of what he says in two other passages, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21: At Jesus' "coming" or "appearing," those who are still alive will be "changed" or "transformed" so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but here he borrows imagery—from biblical and political sources—to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.

First, Paul echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah. The trumpet sounds, a loud voice is heard, and after a long wait Moses comes to see what's been going on in his absence.

Second, he echoes Daniel 7, in which "the people of the saints of the Most High" (that is, the "one like a son of man") are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor, applied to Jesus in the Gospels, is now applied to Christians who are suffering persecution.

Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. Paul's image of the people "meeting the Lord in the air" should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.

Paul's mixed metaphors of trumpets blowing and the living being snatched into heaven to meet the Lord are not to be understood as literal truth, as the Left Behind series suggests, but as a vivid and biblically allusive description of the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.

Paul's misunderstood metaphors present a challenge for us: How can we reuse biblical imagery, including Paul's, so as to clarify the truth, not distort it? And how can we do so, as he did, in such a way as to subvert the political imagery of the dominant and dehumanizing empires of our world? We might begin by asking, What view of the world is sustained, even legitimized, by the Left Behind ideology? How might it be confronted and subverted by genuinely biblical thinking? For a start, is not the Left Behind mentality in thrall to a dualistic view of reality that allows people to pollute God's world on the grounds that it's all going to be destroyed soon? Wouldn't this be overturned if we recaptured Paul's wholistic vision of God's whole creation?




¹Tim F. Lahaye and Jerry B. Jenkins, Left Behind (Cambridge, UK: Tyndale House Publishing, 1996). Eight other titles have followed, all runaway bestsellers.

²See my Jesus and the Victory of God (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1996); the discussions in Jesus and the Restoration of Israel: A Critical Assessment of N.T. Wright's Jesus and the Victory of God, ed. Carey C. Newman (Downer's Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1999); and Marcus J. Borg and N.T. Wright, The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions (San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco, 1999), chapters 13 and 14.

³Douglas Farrow, Ascension and Ecclesia: On the Significance of the Doctrine of the Ascension for Ecclesiology and Christian Cosmology (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1999).



This message was taken from a page at this site: http://www.ntwrightpage.com

[martincisneros]

On the other stuff, I don't have a problem with the idea of a tribulation, and half of the things envisioned by your typical premillenial crowd for that time period.  It's not hard to see how one person could try to take over either the whole world or the mediteranean world.  The technology has been in place for years for an even bigger brother government.  I just have issues with the rapture, some of which are covered by the N.T. Wright article that I just posted.  And I don't believe that Revelation 19 is the second coming.  I do believe that the Postmillenial interpretation that I've posted on Revelation 19 on another thread makes the most sense.  Revelation 19, besides being a vision of the conquering Church as Jesus is leading the way from the right hand of God in His High Priestly ministry could also be the biggest outpouring of the Holy Spirit in history when you compare the Armageddon conflict of the book of Revelation with the armed conflict of the book of Joel. 

But, I generally agree with the premillenialists that are on television that Ezekiel 38 and 39 are pretty much what's next on the horizon.  That Russian-Iranian confederacy that tries to invade Israel in the latter days, only to have most of their army destroyed by God as He makes their nuclear weapons explode in their faces with one heck of a hail storm has been in the planning stages since '93/'94.  I don't believe that that conflict is the same one that happens at the end of the thousand years because Revelation 20 indicates that "they try" but God immediately sends fire down and stops it.  The Revelation 20 scenario seems more like just the surrounding of God's people by the demonic rather than any type of rebellion on the part of human beings.  However, Ezekiel 38 and 39 get pretty detailed about specific human  armies being under the control of the Gog and Magog chief princes.  And Israel either becomes a monarchy again out of this situation, or they'll simply have a Prime Minister or series of Prime Ministers that share the name "David," or that will simply have King David's spirit, sorta like John the Baptist was "Elijah."

I personally believe that the Second Coming isn't until Revelation 21.

[jabcat]

So Martin, taking into account things like the Manifest Sons of God, all creation worshipping, Jesus' return (physical/spiritual, 2nd time/millionth time/continual coming) etc., what would a simple #1,#2,#3 timeline of your understanding look like?

[jabcat]

Maybe more people believe the "mainstream" time frame/outline of "end-time" events than I thought. :dontknow:  Hmmm...guess I'll research this some more.

[martincisneros]

I've been slow in giving a reply to your follow up question about an outline of the order of events because I'm just slower in replying these days in general.  Plus, I've been keeping it before the Lord since my eschatology includes the Hosea 2:18 covenant, as you know, so I've been seeking Him for the best wording for a short outline that's not going to accidentally create a Jihad around here. :icon_jokercolor:  I don't debate my reunification theology just in general, but I'm sure not going to get into a tit-for-tat over any finer points of my understanding of the reunification of all of Creation under the Last Adam.  There are things that are related to this particular question that involved a 5 day absolute fast for the Holy Spirit to really get through my thick head about in '02.  If God had to come dangerously close to shutting down my kidneys, liver, and whatever to crack my hard head, then I don't expect for many people to understand what I'd say about certain things until it was really God's timing for them. 

I've come to the conclusion that some things aren't a matter of intelligence and humility, but some things are just in the area of grace and mercy for them to finally click because we're each greater parts of this present age than we'd care to admit.  The Scriptures speak of some areas of knowledge of our Lord being things that you have to grow into and can't just fully understand from someone's CD of the month.  Many of us have had the experience, just where the human side of UR is concerned, where we've shared over a hundred passages on it and some people still couldn't get it.  And yet that's "entry level UR."  I definitely want to share in response to your question on this thread, otherwise I'd of already sent you a two to ten page PM about what I see and then just left it at that.  The timing or some semblance of an ordering of the events is where you get into the tar pit.  I'm not even talking about persecution right now.  But just knowing when this or that starts, matures, and is consummated in relation to other events that are going through the same process of starting, maturing, and being consummating gets prickly. 

I've been inspired by Joseph Huntington and by Elhanan Winchester from the 18th century and by Charles Hodge and a few others in the 19th century to try to write out a systematic theology where I blend everything about my understanding of the nature and worship of God with my understanding of Creationism, with my Word of Faith substitutionary theology, with my partial preterist, yet futurist postmillenialism, with where the Animal Gospel fits in there somewhere, with where the Gospel to Angels comes in, as well as my interpretation of the book of Revelation that I shared the earliest seeds of on this book of Revelation board, etc.  I have no illusions about it becoming a popular work among UR folks, simply because I don't see how anything that thorough would be less than 900 to 1500 pages.  Maybe even 2000 pages when you talk about presenting my case and then closing each chapter with dealing with the top 50 objections to each chapter that I'd write for it.  I'm talking about something with easily over 50 chapters.

Both for fun and for clarity, I'd probably have some deliberately inflammatory comments in it, like those that don't believe in so-called blab it, grab it theology genuinely don't believe in Biblical salvation because Romans 10:9-10 says to blab it, grab it and Mark 11 says that that's how you deal with any mountains of unforgiveness in your life, by constantly talking it down; constantly talking it uprooted and sunk elsewhere other than your heart, etc.  Colossians 3:12-17 would be a supporting passage for that monologue.  Where people have gotten hung by the throat has been in not understanding that you can't call forth anything that's not a provision of redemption and anything that your heavenly Father hasn't spoken to you about since faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, according to Romans 10:17. 

And many people have wanted faith to cover for their irresponsible lives.  They decided to buy all new clothes and then think that God would cover their rent just because they said it, when in reality the rent should have come first and then just believe God for the clothing 'cause you're generally not going to get put on the street for having a hole in your shoes, but occasionally they get ugly over that rent money!  Some things like health and income because they're daily issues, in the daily bread category, need to be spoken to and about in redemptive ways every single day of your life rather than just when something fell out of someone's butt that they don't think should have, like a prostate, an ovary, an intestine, or whatever.  And then they want to run to the anointing oil, prayer clothes, and intercessors when they'd previously exercised absolutely no faith for their health and had no foundation on the Word to stand on because it wasn't an area of priority in their studies, meditation, and application of the Word.  Hint: When you wake up and the blood is flowing for 200 miles up to a horse's bridle and you're seeing a beast with seven heads and ten horns -- that's not the time to call Oral Roberts' prayer line.  That's the time to get your draining butt down to the hospital and call the Prayer Tower after you've been admitted and they've plugged your leak!  Attempts at faith without a clearly exploding passage of Scripture in your heart right on the scene, right at that moment, and/or without a supernatural Word of Wisdom, Word of knowledge, or Discerning of Spirits at work is only the kind of presumption that's going to get you killed and make half of your relatives deists out of the deal: "Well, you know how God's faithfulness is.  Sometimes He does and sometimes He doesn't."

I've had twenty years of hearing the teachings, studying the Bible for myself, and hearing all of the testimonies of it working and of it not working and the common denominator has been that the only parts of the Word that'll be fruitful in your life (i.e. in your own personal eschatology) are the parts that you daily emphasize and fellowship with the Holy Spirit over.  So, I've gotten to where I just say it absolutely every single day; many, many times a day:

"by His stripes I was healed."

"no weapon formed against me will ever prosper."

"God satisfies my mouth with good things so that my youth is renewed as the eagle's."

"I know and receive the grace of my Lord Jesus Christ that though He was rich, yet for my sake He became poor on the Cross, that I through His poverty on the Cross would be made RICH."

For me, that's my eschatology.  My own personal eschatology.  People will argue you out of everything else as far as eschatology is concerned and get into stupid stuff about the beast, horns, the mark, the destruction of babylon, and 629 other things if you'll let them.  But nobody has a right to intrude on those things that you've personally taken your daily stand on the Rock about.  When I get up and when I'm laying down all 4 of those Scriptures I've just quoted are coming out of my mouth.  And many times when I'm in the restroom they're coming out of my mouth.  And as often as I'm able to receive communion every single day those Scriptures get mentioned somewhere as though I were taking my medicine for this or that.  Other things come flying out of my mouth when my faith is particularly edified by the above, like "I can do all things through the Anointing which strengthens me" and a lot of other Scriptures, but those 4 listed above are foundational and when I can't sleep I'll just confess 'em over and over and over again until I fall asleep.

I've got too many things on the prayer altar that I'm believing God for as far as my life and ministry, and the above Scriptures cover health, strength, areas of vulnerability, and the resources to touch every person on the whole planet with the reunification theology that's been growing in me.  If anybody wants the phrase "reunification theology" they can have it for whatever.  I've actually got another term that the Holy Spirit dropped in my heart earlier tonight for what to publish my future stuff under.  But I'm clammed up on that term, that's probably even a good healthier alternative to both the terms "Word of Faith" and "Christian Universalism" until I've published some stuff that may be the earliest proto-systematic theology that I'll be writing.  Perhaps just as a collection of articles it'll seem less intimidating for me to put out there, at first, than trying to arrange my ideas into a coherent order for such a massive book:

One goes before Two which goes before Three, but One touches on Three so maybe One should be Four. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
And all of the other nightmares that people get into when trying to arrange the text of a larger composition.

I want to start a college in a few years, so even if I don't write out this thing that's bigger than a couple of [back to back] Strong's Concordances, I think that my thinking is clarifying in the direction of a textbook or two, minimally.  That's my personal eschatology and what I wrestle daily for with my thanksgiving, singing in other tongues, and the Bread and Cup.  What's been coming to me as the interpretation of tongues spoken or sung as hymns before the Lord is astonishing enough to blow brain tissue out of a lot of people's ears!  How about a network of Gospel Universalist Television Stations?  A vast network where all of the money was believed in, in advance, so that the owner could easily get an attitude similar to St. Paul's cockiness, if he wanted to, where he could just as easily say "You're not paying for this, so don't tell me how to do it!"  Now that's overcoming the world in Christ!! :Sparkletooth: (As long as you don't forget Deuteronomy 8:18.)

24/7 television with every UR and Postmillenial Bible teacher that you can think of would be on, if they were willing to participate.  And since television stations that are digital now involve the ability to simulcast multiple television signals at once, it wouldn't be hard to have an Inspirational Movie Channel as well that would show every movie that you could think of that's ever had the slightest hint of UR in it, plus the resources to produce other blatantly UR movies, and perhaps glimpses into the future -- into that 1Corinthians 15:28 world.  What about having a couple of UR movies where the afterlife punishment scenario is sensationalized for the sake of the kids to make it more interesting, [and 'cause movies are parabolic when they're at their best,] and having Christians going in there with the water hoses and the new shoes, ring, robe, etc., that's mentioned in the Prodigal Son parable?  Plus, every station having some type of homeless shelter on the property and some amazingly good cooking!  As a transitional phase to the ultimate...

I can talk about that kind of eschatology from now on; a world where Christian Universalists are the leaders of the Body of Christ rather than the hooligans of the Body that are standing outside of Churches throwing rocks through the stained glass windows! :laughing7:  What about Christian Universalist bookstores that are as big as Barnes and Noble bookstores that are open 24/7 with Christian Universalist music [lightly] playing around the clock and that are as much reading rooms as places to buy stuff?  What about a world with no more homelessness and no more hunger?  And I don't mean a bunch of stupid FEMA trailers for the homeless either!  I mean something nicer than what most people at these boards currently have!!  I see a millenium coming in which the Church is in control of everything prior to the coming of Christ Jesus in Revelation 21. 

I don't care about politics and war issues and catastrophic eschatology.  The Lord's opened my eyes and I've seen the Promised Land that's beyond all of the nonsense and attempts at unifying the world under wickedness rather than under Christ Jesus.  I see the Kingdoms of this world becoming the Kingdoms of our Lord's and of His Christ's.  I don't see any more struggle any more.  I don't.  I can see beyond the birthpangs.  That's all I've been able to see for the longest time now!  I can see every disease being cured within a matter of months or a few short years, animal oppression ceasing, and for their sake and not ours the bows, swords, and battles will cease from the land and He'll cause them to lie down peacefully, in safety.

I can see beyond the birthpangs.  I can see beyond it with my eyes open or closed, anytime that I wish so that it's nearer than any of us have dared to think after all that we've been through!  I can see the end of all religions spoken of in the book of Revelation and only the teachings of Christ's Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers mattering to anyone.  I believe that that's a transitional phase preceding the New Earth where on the New Earth the promise will be fulfilled that no longer will anyone tell his neighbor 'know the Lord' because they'll all know Him from the least to the greatest.  That promise will be fulfilled during the millenium, but not in the fullness that it'll be fulfilled in with the New Earth where as St. John said "you have no need for any man to teach you."  When he made that statement, he was within a few verses of talking about the New Earth where he said "we know that when He appears, we'll be just like Him because we'll see Him as He is."

This may get some hissing and perhaps some venom from some folks, but I don't believe we're at that stage yet.  The gifts have not ceased, and according to Ephesians 4 the Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers have been given to the Body and not to the world.  Biblically, it's the world that has no need of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers because that five-fold ministry is to equip the saints to do the work of the ministry which is the building as well as the building up of the Body of Christ 'til we all come in the unity of the faith and in the unity of our knowledge of the Son of God, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of the burden removing, yoke destroying power of God.  We're not yet there with the fullness of the manifestation of the anointings of the Body as long as there's any feeble, sick, or prematurely dying among us, according to 1Corinthians 11. 

You qualify for no longer needing the ministry of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers when you're as anointed as any of the ones you've ever seen and gawked at, when their works are no longer incredible and subject to your accusations that they're paying people to give those testimonies, but you're finally to the point of surpassing them (John 14:12), and when you're discipling the nations (Matthew 28) and pulling the Body closer together (1Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4) rather than screaming about and cursing the diversity that Christ Jesus Personally wants in the Body.  Otherwise, we've pretty much all got to shut up and accept our milk bottles into our mouths while the Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers that Christ appoints for each of our lives, myself included, pull us out of our diapers without the stink being noticeable in another county or province when we're out of our diapers.  I, myself, have a whole lot that I've got to learn, but I'm gaining on it everyday. :Sparkletooth:  And my shorts aren't as soiled as they used to be! :icon_jokercolor:

[jabcat]

Wow, thanks for this reply Martin.  I'll study it more closely tonight at work.  As usual in your posts, there's a lot to think about and absorb. And I see what you're saying about the dangers of getting "pinned down" on specifics.  Probably a sure opening for debate.  OK, more later, thanks again.  James.