LoF is the Millenium Kingdom???

[Molly]

Oh man, lol, I don't know, I'm just suggesting the life eonian piece might be an important fit in there somewhere.  On these type of technical details, don't take my word for it.  I feel I have more of a "bigger picture view" - you and some of the others are better at the details.   :gimmefive:

Yes that makes a lot of sense. 

[jabcat]

I am actually one of the ones who at least "suspects" the Lake of Fire is either God's direct Presence, or "at least", a spiritual condition He sets up to convict and then bring purification with repentance.   :2c:

[Molly]

I am actually one of the ones who at least "suspects" the Lake of Fire is either God's direct Presence, or "at least", a spiritual condition He sets up to convict and then bring purification with repentance.   :2c:

Yes, but we have to prove that lol.

And I suspect the proof will come from the eighth day.  What happens on the eighth day?  circumcision, burnt offerings, dedication of the temple...?  It will take a little time to flesh this out.

22And two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, such as he is able to get; and the one shall be a sin offering, and the other a burnt offering.

23And he shall bring them on the eighth day for his cleansing unto the priest, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, before the LORD.

--Lev 14

[jabcat]

It is interesting.  I think of it more in terms of an outline, an overall BIG PLAN - with some of the main verses and concepts listed as sub-categories.   Then you, WW, Card and others dig into the details.  Go for it!   :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

Or break it in little pieces we can put together later.

I'll start with a very simple question that's likely not so simple to answer.

Say we are halfway the millenium kingdom. WHO are Jesus and the saints ruling over?
Empty world? Sinners still living? Just animals? Ranks of saints? Reigning is a translation issue?

[jabcat]

Molly said this earlier, and the last line really struck me.  Does this help with the "answer"?

"Death and Hell are thrown into the Lake of fire.

Anyone whose name is not written in the book is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

NOTE:  It's interesting that death, the last enemy, is thrown into the lake of fire before any people are.

That means those people in the lake of fire 1) will not die and 2)they are not an enemy."

[Molly]

Or break it in little pieces we can put together later.

I'll start with a very simple question that's likely not so simple to answer.

Say we are halfway the millenium kingdom. WHO are Jesus and the saints ruling over?
Empty world? Sinners still living? Just animals? Ranks of saints? Reigning is a translation issue?

Is there a reason it couldn't be just the people living at that time?  Is there any reason to think things wouldn't go along as usual, people born and dying, with the exception that the world is being ruled by Jesus and his saints?

Satan will be locked up [for the 1000 years].

The LoF happens after the second resurrection [8th day] with maybe the exception of the house of God [judgment begins at the house of God].

[WhiteWings]

"Death and Hell are thrown into the Lake of fire.

The first step is to translate hell into Hades.
Death is just that death. But Hades is a collection of dead people. Kingdom of the dead

Anyone whose name is not written in the book is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

That's dead people.

NOTE:  It's interesting that death, the last enemy, is thrown into the lake of fire before any people are.

Maybe death isn't dead at all. Maybe it's sin....

That means those people in the lake of fire 1) will not die and 2)they are not an enemy."

It's the 2nd death. We all die in this life. That the 1st death. The death of the body.
The 2nd death is the death of sin.

I think: LoF = refiners fire = fullars soap = (power of) Father
I've seen several idea's in this thread (including mine) that look ok but if we that AE Knoch's plan of the ages as a guideline all idea's are very flawed because they simply not (seem to) fit on the time line.
:dontknow:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Adam to Moses = roughly 2000 years. Moses to Jesus = roughly 2000 years. Jesus to now = roughly 2000 years, the 2 days of Pentecost realm. So what day are we in? Both the 7th and the 3rd, a double Sabbath, double perfection, the Head and the body of the elect (cherubim) formed as one in the mercy seat.

Jesus said, tell Herod that fox, today (one 1000 year day) and tomorrow (two 1000 year days) I will do cures and cast out devils (2 days of Pentecost), but tomorrow (3rd day from Jesus, 7th day from Adam) I will be perfected (complete with a place to lay His head/authority).

So because He is our rest, which is Spirit, which is time-less, that "day" is as His garment, neverending, without beginning or end (seamless). Those that step into THAT DAY (promised land), enter in as a small child (as the children of Israel did), Satan IS bound, but because the rest of our brethren must be killed (laying down their lives on the altar) the same way we were (Rev. 5), he is loosed again to be an adversary to THEM, that the glory of God might be shown. My  :2c:

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: Adam to Moses = roughly 2000 years. Moses to Jesus = roughly 2000 years. Jesus to now = roughly 2000 years, the 2 days of Pentecost realm. So what day are we in? Both the 7th and the 3rd, a double Sabbath, double perfection, the Head and the body of the elect (cherubim) formed as one in the mercy seat.

Ever noticed there are 7 months between the 1st and last harvests?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes...... :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

Good :winkgrin:
I didn't until a few seconds after I saw you post :grin:
7 months, 3 harvests. That aligns with what you wrote.
Then we would be teh 3rd harvest.
The problem I have with that is it means harvesting begun before Jesus died.
OTOH I understand salvationis not based on what year one is born in. But then the pattern seems to be lost... :dontknow:

[shawn]

You're blending TT.  You're saying part of it is literal (thousand years) and part of it is spiritual . . .it doesn't work when you blend it.  It gets too messy that way.

I thought most of the bible does this. E.g Genesis has a literal creation, but also uses symbols such as the serpent.

God uses the intellect of the mind and also the illiuminating of the Holy Spirit.

It does get messy as you said, but I find most of the bilble to be messy, with all kinds of doctrines mixing and blending and contextual understanding, word translations, word usage coming in to play etc.

No, the Bible has levels of truths in it . . .but they are layered apart from each other and when you see the layers, they become the whole.  Jeeze . . .it's so tough to put spiritual stuff into words . . .ugh.

And you are right in that we get it all mixed together into a big mess.  I still say it's due to our natural minds trying to reason with spiritual truths . . .

Either it's a literal thousand years, AND Jesus literally meant let dead people bury dead people . . .that's what I mean by mixing it . . .Jesus didn't mean literal dead people, he meant let the spiritually dead people worry about the natural processes of death, the realm of death.  But Revelation had (past tense) a literal application to it, but not for a generation 2000 years removed . . .spiritual truth is endless, so "that's" what effectively applies . . .

Kingdom language uses measures, colors, metals, light, dark, man/woman . . contrasts . . .it uses natural elements for our benefit, to reveal spiritual principles.  (Romans 1:20).  We're not to apply the signs as literal applications, but as spiritual links that connect to already established templates elsewhere in Scripture.  That's what it means to let Scripture interpret itself.  The foundation is already there, we simply just overlay the latter to the former and "that" reveals the spiritual pattern . . .which all points to Christ.  This isn't a revelation of man and Jesus . . .it's a revelation of Jesus . . .we need to get man out of it.

So it's not about literally living and reigning with Jesus for a literal thousand years . . .it's again connecting us directly to the heart of God . . .the dimensions of the holy of holies, patterned again after Jesus . . .it's pointing to the intimacy . .. in our intimacy with the Father, the adversary in us is bound.  When we step out of that intimacy, we are the ones once again releasing the adversarial nature . . .it's the walk of life . . .

The difference now is, no longer is the adversary the continual prince of the air . . .but now, it is only mobile in "seasons".  A SHORT period of time as opposed to what it used to be, before we had a relationship with God at all.

Wow.  That brought tears to my eyes.  Read my PM and know it was written before I read this post.  God is good.

[shawn]

I am actually one of the ones who at least "suspects" the Lake of Fire is either God's direct Presence, or "at least", a spiritual condition He sets up to convict and then bring purification with repentance.   :2c:

Yes, but we have to prove that lol.

And I suspect the proof will come from the eighth day.  What happens on the eighth day?  circumcision, burnt offerings, dedication of the temple...?  It will take a little time to flesh this out.

22And two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, such as he is able to get; and the one shall be a sin offering, and the other a burnt offering.

23And he shall bring them on the eighth day for his cleansing unto the priest, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, before the LORD.

--Lev 14

While I believe it's prudent to support what we believe with scripture I'm not sure we have to "prove" anything.  The Holy Spirit does that work in the hearts of men.  He will approve of truth in hearts ready to listen.

[WhiteWings]

Shawn,
I can also be said if 'we' prove things the seed planted is of higher quality.
I think it often also improves your own knowledge.

That said, I think there are other places where the planting is more effective.
We all have a limited amount of time. Then is wised, imo, to select the best possible soil.

[shawn]

Shawn,
I can also be said if 'we' prove things the seed planted is of higher quality.
I think it often also improves your own knowledge.

That said, I think there are other places where the planting is more effective.
We all have a limited amount of time. Then is wised, imo, to select the best possible soil.

I certainly understand where you are coming from.  There is significant value to study, and understanding through scripture what we have come to believe.  I would also agree that it's important to support what we believe.  My comment was directed at the word prove.  While I'm sure the original poster understands this, I will state it anyhow.  This isn't science, it's faith.  If there was proof it would no longer be faith.  We can not prove anything, we can only plant (as you said a high quality seed).  The Holy Spirit does the work of approving, and growing the seed.

[Nathan]

 :iagree: :rocker :happyclap: :happyclap: :happyclap: :clapping: :beerburp:

[Molly]

The problem I have with that is it means harvesting begun before Jesus died

oddly enough, it did.


Say not you, There are yet four months, and then comes harvest? behold, I say to you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
--John 4:35

[thinktank]

You said let scripture interpret scripture. I think that's what the theory is based upon, i.e 7 days of creation, 1 day is as a thousand years, 7th day is the day of rest, 1000 year rest for the people of God, there is a pattern behind the 1000 years, rather than it just being a random number. E.g the 144,000 in the book of revelation seems to be a random number and therfore cannot really stand much on it's own as being a literal 144,000 saints, but the 1000 years of rest number has a pattern to it and also Satan is bound for an exactly 1000 years, is this a coincidence?

#
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said , As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

#
Hebrews 4:4 KJV
For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.


.Jesus didn't mean literal dead people, he meant let the spiritually dead people worry about the natural processes of death, the realm of death.  But Revelation had (past tense) a literal application to it, but not for a generation 2000 years removed . . .spiritual truth is endless, so "that's" what effectively applies . . .
Nathan

The part that is spiritualized is the bolded part. Perhaps you are correct and it is not allowed in bible 101 to mix a literal piece (1000 years)and then to connect it to a spiritual piece (i.e the living dead I talked about), in biblical rules, but I'm not sure if such a rule exists, if there were such rules it would help make the bible more logical and more stable, but is this a man made rule or a rule God has created  :dontknow:

This is really interesting. wow.

So are you saying that the 1000 year reign of Christ corresponds to the 7th day which is rest?  And that there is a parallel in the OT where He would not let those who refused to trust him into his rest? So they were forced to wander in the wilderness until that generation of stiff necked people died off--also the law, moses couldn't enter, either--and then let Joshua lead the children into the promised land which equals the 7th day, his rest?  So those in the lake of fire will be kept out of the new Jerusalem the way those stiff necked were kept out of the promised land--for one day [1000yrs]?

Is that what you're saying?  wow.  I think you're onto something here.

Only the children were allowed to enter the promised land [plus Joshua and Caleb].


3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

--Mat 18:3

extension

Right.  Sorry.  I forgot the lake of fire happens after the 1000 year reign.  So, those not resurrected in the first resurrection will be sleeping, yes.  So strike LoF from my above post and replace with unbelievers.

I'll get this right eventually lol.


So Lof happens in the 8th day for unbelievers.

Yes, that is what I mean  :thumbsup: . You see if the LOF just happens, not sure but if it is a Lake of destruction, then before the 8th day comes to pass, God can and will save all people by faith and the UR scriptures before they are judged.

So this means that Universal salvation is still true, just that the nature of what the LOF is, is different. There is evidence to suggest that the LOF = Gods pureifying fire, but there is also evidence to suggest that it is a lake of destruction where death is thrown in and everything that belongs to death, including people, but of course as mentioned Jesus will save all from this second death, so Universal salvation is still true, just that the LOF means a lake of annihilation. I think this brings comfort in that at least God won't be tormenting the devil and the fallen angels forever, that that is not his character, but bring them to an end, as Isiah also says that Lucifer shall be brought to ashes before men, just as sodom and Gomorah was also prophecied to burn forever, but actually was destroyed.

[Cardinal]

Good :winkgrin:
I didn't until a few seconds after I saw you post :grin:
7 months, 3 harvests. That aligns with what you wrote.
Then we would be teh 3rd harvest.
The problem I have with that is it means harvesting begun before Jesus died.
OTOH I understand salvationis not based on what year one is born in. But then the pattern seems to be lost... :dontknow:

:cloud9: Not understanding why you find that to be a problem. There are ongoing harvests.... :dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

Good :winkgrin:
I didn't until a few seconds after I saw you post :grin:
7 months, 3 harvests. That aligns with what you wrote.
Then we would be teh 3rd harvest.
The problem I have with that is it means harvesting begun before Jesus died.
OTOH I understand salvationis not based on what year one is born in. But then the pattern seems to be lost... :dontknow:

:cloud9: Not understanding why you find that to be a problem. There are ongoing harvests.... :dontknow:

I think we can agree Jesus is (part of) the first fruit harvest. There can be nothing before that harvest.
Sure there have been many harvests before 31AD. But 31AD was the first spiritual harvest.
Where did the harvested saints go to if Jesus was the first one that went back to heaven?
Somehow I think Jesus was very much present in the creation account. Meaning then was His first time on earth.
But that would be even more problematic because it would mean Revelation happend at His baptism. :msealed:

oddly enough, it did.

Say not you, There are yet four months, and then comes harvest? behold, I say to you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
--John 4:35

That was only a reference to a Sabbath year. The harvest was reasy but the Jews had to wait until September/new year to actually harvest it.

[Aleax]

Random thought of the day, and a possible answer to your problem:

Perhaps qualifying for eonian (Kingdom) life and qualifying as a co-ruler aren't synonymous.
Doesn't Paul write somewhere in his epistles that at teh better resurrection, some will receive terrestrial bodies, and some celestial bodies. (It's past midnight here, I'm too tired to search for the verse)

And that there are different degrees in glories. Sun, moon and stars.
So maybe all believers will receive eonian Kingdom life, but only the elect will get to rule with Christ.
Could this be what's meant with "Many are called, but few are chosen."

[Molly]

And that there are different degrees in glories. Sun, moon and stars.
So maybe all believers will receive eonian Kingdom life, but only the elect will get to rule with Christ.
Could this be what's meant with "Many are called, but few are chosen."

I think this might be true, too.  That's why he talks about winning the 'prize.'


1 Corinthians 9:24
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.


Philippians 3:14
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.