I need help with Revelation 20

[valueallhumanlife2008]

Is the lake of fire itself the second death, or is the second death the act of being cast into the lake of fire?

If universalism is true, why does this chapter of Revelation feel like nothing but doom for the unbelievers?

[Nathan]

From where I am, it's because the old system has engrained in us that this book is depicting the end of the world for mankind and it's basically a convergence of spirit and flesh coming together and spirit beings anihilate the flesh beings. . .when for me, the reality is, these are not men or people that are being destroyed . . .1/3 of men die here, 1/4 of them die there . . I mean Jeeze, when you add up all the fractions of things dying, you wouldn't come to a sum of "1" as a whole, but more like 8 or 10 . . .  For me, the destruction is not coming to men, but to "mAn".  to MY man.  Which reverses the assumption that it's a bad thing.

There was an angel at one point that flew around proclaiming the 3 woes . . .and again, for me, these woes are not against men, but my carnal man.  It is the spirit giving notice to my flesh that the days of wrestling have come to an end just as God decreed in Genesis 6.  Those that are walking in the flesh are about to experience such a flood of watery truth that it's going to wipe out every flesh thing in them and in the end, the purity of spirit will emerge as the victor of all tings. 

[martincisneros]

Is the lake of fire itself the second death, or is the second death the act of being cast into the lake of fire?

If universalism is true, why does this chapter of Revelation feel like nothing but doom for the unbelievers?

Being cast into the Lake of Fire is the second death.  UR is true, but inspite of the implication of some of the Sovereignty teaching that's gone on around here as far as what it may convey to some minds, sin is still serious and will be dealt with forcefully even though there's still the promise of Ultimate Restoration.  Our choices matter.  The implication is still that it's something bad to be avoided, inspite of the implication of spiritual fire or the idea of touchstoning replacing the idea of torment for some people, or the fact that wrath in Strong's Concordance isn't necessarily the dark ages idea of wrath.  The Lake of Fire is still something to be avoided 'cause it's our Father's big paddle against sin.  Some things about the eons that we're living in are our schooling, while other things like the Lake of Fire is the equivalent of being sent to the Principal's [or Head Schoolmaster's] Office. 

To me, it's growing increasingly clear that the Lake of Fire is the flaming version of Noah's Flood.  It'll be this earth being transformed according to 2Peter 3, but brimstone or sulphur is a quality of volcanoes.  If you're up on top of a large volcano, you're essentially on top of a mountain.  If you look across the flaming soup if it's subdued enough for you to get that close, then yeah, that's a Lake.  A frightening one!  Whatever the Lake of Fire entails, that's still the imagery associated with it, even if someone wants to argue spiritual rather than nature fire from the translation.  Even if someone wanted to argue that it's the death of death that's the Second Death, don't lose sight of the fact that those whose names aren't written in the Lamb's book of life are still chucked in.  I don't believe that hyperbole is being used where that's concerned.  But yes, all will one day be restored and all will one day be transformed into His own perfections according to the power that He has for subduing/transforming all things into Himself according to Ephesians 1:10 and Philippians 3:21.  Jesus Christ is the ransom for all men, according to 1Timothy 2.

But the Biblical importance of repentance, discipleship, and sanctification to the Gospel doesn't put a Biblically based Christian Universalist at too great of a distance from the understanding of someone believing in eternal separation or eternal destruction.  We just don't slander the purpose of God, or exaggerate the duration of His judgments, or create finality on what's only the beginning for some.  He's after a change in life in all of His judgments and a total surrender to Christ Jesus as Lord from all of His creatures.  But the Scriptures do insist from cover to cover in there being something both awesome and dreadfully fearful in His judgments.  He doesn't play around until we're on the exact same page with Him.

[rosered]

Is the lake of fire itself the second death, or is the second death the act of being cast into the lake of fire?

If universalism is true, why does this chapter of Revelation feel like nothing but doom for the unbelievers?

  What  do you think it means VAHL ?

The way its worded in my KJV   they have their part in the Lake of fire

part is what is due ... Strong's G3313 - meros μέρος
Transliteration
meros
Pronunciation

me'-ros (Key)

Part of Speech
neuter noun



from an obsolete but more primary form of meiromai (to get as a section or allotment)

TDNT Reference
4:594,585
Vines
View Entry


Outline of Biblical Usage 1) a part

a) a part due or assigned to one

b) lot, destiny

2) one of the constituent parts of a whole

a) in part, partly, in a measure, to some degree, as respects a part, severally, individually
b) any particular, in regard to this, in this respect


  those  who have part in the 1st ressurection ,,    the second death has no power over  them

  what is the power of the 2nd death  than ?
I think of Lazurus  the brother of mary and martha  as a great example that  Jesus raised from the dead ...


here is strongs for that power in the 2nd deathOVER them Strong's G1849 - exousia ἐξουσία
Transliteration
exousia
Pronunciation

eks-ü-sē'-ä (Key)

Part of Speech
feminine noun

from G1832 (in the sense of ability)
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases
a) leave or permission2) physical and mental power

a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)

4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)a) universally

1) authority over mankind

b) specifically
1) the power of judicial decisions

2) of authority to manage domestic affairs

c) metonymically

1) a thing subject to authority or rule

a) jurisdiction

2) one who possesses authority

a) a ruler, a human magistrate

b) the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates

d) a sign of the husband's authority over his wife

1) the veil with which propriety required a women to cover herself

e) the sign of regal authority, a crown

[WhiteWings]

Is the lake of fire itself the second death, or is the second death the act of being cast into the lake of fire?

If universalism is true, why does this chapter of Revelation feel like nothing but doom for the unbelievers?

The Bible starts with Geneis (=start) the story unfolds and the Bible ends with Revelation (=end)
That has been my understanding for quite a while.
But I no longer believe Revealtion is the end of Gods plan.

It greatly contradicts with:
Revelation 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

If the unbelievers stay in the doomed state of Revelation how can the above verse state that all negative things are gone?
I think the following gives you a similar view:

"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1Co_15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1Co_15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22: 

In 1Co_15:22-28, we have:
 
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed
All made alive, immortal 

In Revelation 20-22, we have: 

Still rule (Rev_20:6; Rev_22:5)
Son still reigns (Rev_22:1-5; Rev_21:5)
Authority (Rev_21:24-25)
Power (Rev_21:24-25; Rev_22:2)
Kings (Rev_21:24-26)
Saints reign (Rev_22:5)
Second death still exists (Rev_21:8)
The nations still mortal (Rev_22:2)" 

[WhiteWings]

I want to add a verse from my signature. I think it's a very powerful verse.


Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....

Everyone who is righteous can enter heaven. The verse states that it is declared that the ungodly will be made righteous.

Ungodly: how much more powerful you can get?
Declared: another stong statement. Not just offered or asked. Declared.

[firstborn888]

Revelation 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, ne

If you read in context Rev 21:4 is a direct result of the LOF  :thumbsup:

[rosered]

 
  That is my point too , in my post , it is in part or partial , not eternal  or forever on going
   the cleansing in the LOF  , To me it is the purification process   Paul so speaks of in


1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

  Know ye not that you  are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwells in you? [GOD IS THE CONSUMING FIRE]

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] you  are.

  that be any old man /adam  even that one in you !!
  and it is the works that are judged  and destroyed  as vanity /empty /dead works .

 

.Hbr 1:7 And of the angels he says , Who makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. !
  the body/lake of Fire  is consuming   vanity as we speak ...


  Isaiah  33  answers this for me so beautifully  to be read fully in context  for a great mystery revealed .......... 
Zion is the  = "parched place"1) signpost, monument, market



Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
hope this helps someone  as it has me , very  comforting  to  have ..

[Nathan]

To me, it's growing increasingly clear that the Lake of Fire is the flaming version of Noah's Flood.  It'll be this earth being transformed according to 2Peter 3, but brimstone or sulphur is a quality of volcanoes.  If you're up on top of a large volcano, you're essentially on top of a mountain.  If you look across the flaming soup if it's subdued enough for you to get that close, then yeah, that's a Lake.  A frightening one!  Whatever the Lake of Fire entails, that's still the imagery associated with it, even if someone wants to argue spiritual rather than nature fire from the translation.  Even if someone wanted to argue that it's the death of death that's the Second Death, don't lose sight of the fact that those whose names aren't written in the Lamb's book of life are still chucked in.  I don't believe that hyperbole is being used where that's concerned.  But yes, all will one day be restored and all will one day be transformed into His own perfections according to the power that He has for subduing/transforming all things into Himself according to Ephesians 1:10 and Philippians 3:21.  Jesus Christ is the ransom for all men, according to 1Timothy 2.

So what this is saying then is .  . a natural fire that destroys a natural earth full of natural people . . .is how God removes spiritual carnality?

So maybe we really "are" to cut off our hand if it offends us  . . . pluck out our eye . . .make all the women be quiet in church and only the husbands are to speak, receive and share the word with their wives in private . . .  Being a little sarcastic but the purpose is to just get us to think about what we're saying.  Is the circumcision we receive from God a natural one or a spiritual one?  For me, it's most definitely spiritual.  So then it would beg the question "Why would God purge a natural world of spiritual darkness through natural destruction?"  Then, the next question would be "How?"  How can you deal with spiritual darkness through natural means?

"The flood of Noah did the same thing . . ."  No, what the flood of Noah did was reset the natural order of things.  God used the natural to "reveal" spiritual truth.  Natural can "reveal" spiritual reality by way of association.  I can relate to a kernal of corn being planted and return a 100 fold at harvest.  But this is not to say planting corn is what releases the Spirit of reproduction and Truth.

The flood is a natural symbol to reveal a spiritual truth.  This "end of the world destruction" plan is not based on spiritual truth, but natural reasoning.  Not by "might" not by "power" (natural thinking and effort) but by the SPIRIT does reconciliation come.  This lake of fire is not a natural place.  But for many, it has come already.  I believe that is why there was a visual flame on the heads of all who were in the upper room.  They were passing through the fire of purification whereas they experienced a renewing of their minds through this refining fire experience.

You can believe in a natural fire and brimstone destruction if you choose, but I don't choose to . . .I choose to see it as a spiritual fire and brimstone bringing refinement to the earth IN ME.  May the things that are not sent by God be burned by God.  May my flesh be refined into his holy temple and my garments be purified by the light of his purity and not by my own attempts to get the stains out.  It is a spiritual climate change that takes place in every heart of every man.  Natural things are used to illuminate spiritual truth, but natural things can not eliminate spiritual stains.  It's all spiritual.

The natural is just one of many languages God uses to speak.  But it is not the source of cleansing.  That belongs to the Spirit.

Again . . this is just my point of view on this issue.  I'm sure there are many others.

[martincisneros]

So what this is saying then is .  . a natural fire that destroys a natural earth full of natural people . . .is how God removes spiritual carnality?

That's only by the Blood of Christ.  Not by the fire.

So maybe we really "are" to cut off our hand if it offends us  . . . pluck out our eye . . .make all the women be quiet in church and only the husbands are to speak, receive and share the word with their wives in private . . .

Scriptural truth has never changed.

Being a little sarcastic but the purpose is to just get us to think about what we're saying.  Is the circumcision we receive from God a natural one or a spiritual one?  For me, it's most definitely spiritual.

Yes, it is. 

So then it would beg the question "Why would God purge a natural world of spiritual darkness through natural destruction?"  Then, the next question would be "How?"  How can you deal with spiritual darkness through natural means?

God's stopping the insanity before the application of spiritual means.

what the flood of Noah did was reset the natural order of things.

Exactly, as we've been needing for a while now for God to do again!

God used the natural to "reveal" spiritual truth.  Natural can "reveal" spiritual reality by way of association.

Yes, it can.

I can relate to a kernal of corn being planted and return a 100 fold at harvest.  But this is not to say planting corn is what releases the Spirit of reproduction and Truth.

Correct.

The flood is a natural symbol to reveal a spiritual truth.  This "end of the world destruction" plan is not based on spiritual truth, but natural reasoning.

On the contrary, it's the exact fulfillment of the Word of God.

Not by "might" not by "power" (natural thinking and effort) but by the SPIRIT does reconciliation come.  This lake of fire is not a natural place.  But for many, it has come already.

Not until after the thousand years, sorry.  Don't confuse the fires of Scripture.  There is a baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire, but the Lake of Fire passage isn't associated with those passages.  It's associated with the resurrection of the just and the unjust and the condemnation of the unjust out of the things found in the books.

I believe that is why there was a visual flame on the heads of all who were in the upper room.  They were passing through the fire of purification whereas they experienced a renewing of their minds through this refining fire experience.

They weren't passing through a fire of purification.  They'd already been washed in the Blood of Christ.  They were being tempered in the way that a potter will subject his pottery to fire to give it strength.

You can believe in a natural fire and brimstone destruction if you choose, but I don't choose to

Yes, I'll stick to the Word on it.

. . .I choose to see it as a spiritual fire and brimstone bringing refinement to the earth IN ME.

This doesn't preclude the disaster that's to come at the end of the millenium as we transition from this earth to the New Earth.

May the things that are not sent by God be burned by God.

Where God deems it appropriate, then yes, He will.

May my flesh be refined into his holy temple and my garments be purified by the light of his purity and not by my own attempts to get the stains out.

Garments must be washed in the Blood of the Lamb, according to Revelation 7:13-14.

It is a spiritual climate change that takes place in every heart of every man.

Yes, this will happen for every being in all of Creation.  But that doesn't preclude disasters that are the fruit of sin that produce death. (Romans 6:23)

Natural things are used to illuminate spiritual truth, but natural things can not eliminate spiritual stains.

The Blood of Christ is both natural and spiritual just as we are both natural and spiritual, therefore we're receiving a cleansing that's both natural and spiritual.

It's all spiritual.

See my previous comment.

The natural is just one of many languages God uses to speak.

And He will through the Lake of Fire in the Great Conflagration.

But it is not the source of cleansing.

Cleansing is only by the Blood of Christ.

That belongs to the Spirit.

Actually, it's Jesus' Blood applied through His High Priestly Ministry.  The Holy Spirit brings the conviction of the reality of it, but not the substance of it.  That's only through the Son of God.

Again . . this is just my point of view on this issue.

Same as what I've shared is mine.

[rosered]

 
  Hi Martin , I just read your posts to Nate   
and Jesus is described   as  a Fire  His Eyes and feet  and body of Beryl 
that is a  blazing color of orange /yellow Jasper Stone
  I saw a vision once   of the Lord and He was a FIRE  rounded ! and  it scared me to death   John sees the same thing as Daniel saw too ...Dan 10:6 His body also [was] like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.   Rev 1:14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strengthAnd when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death

  I just think  that Zion is the raised up monument  [ JESUS CHRIST]   The Stone Mountain  , not made with hands  but with the  Mighty God's Spirit  in Daniels prophecy

  I   believe this also ..

   the Blood of Jesus  is   LIFE   ITS SELF   so pure  and holy and just and true  and does cleanse us Christ Divides Men

Luke 12
49"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! to fasten fire to a thing, kindle, set of fire

[glenda]

Notice that this doesn't occur until after has been spoken "those not believing will go to the 2nd death" and that is not spoken until after [1] all have been resurrected and [2] all have witnessed and lived through a very long day of the examination of all things (commonly called judgment, and perhaps,surprise! atonement).. who after all that (resurrection,etc) is not going to believe??

[sheila]

   we need to be very careful in discerning these things..

   we mustn't mix up the tokogae with the TOL

  note ' books were opened' these are the books of the law..

  of which no man could be made perfect..ANOTHER BOOK WAS

   OPENED...which is the BOOK OF LIFE[TOL]

  Daniel 7;10  as I looked thrones were set in place[reign begins] and the Ancient of Days tokk his seat, His clothing was as white as snow,the hair of his head was white like wool.

  His throne was flaming with fire,and it's wheels were all ablaze.A river of fire was flowing,coming out from before Him/
Thousnands upon thousnds atteneded Him

  Ten thousands time tenthousnds stood before Him.
The court was seated...AND THE BOOKS WERE OPENED

  Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking.I kept looking until the beast was slain and it's body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire[Rev19;19]
The other beasts had been stripped of their authority but were allowed to live for a period of time]

  IN MY VISION AT NIGHT I LOOKED AND THERE BEFORE ME WAS ONE LIKE A SON OF MAN[enter TOL/OTHER BOOK OPENED/ENTER BOOK OF LIFE]

  HE approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence

  HE WAS GIVEN AUTHORITY,GLORY AND SOVEREIGN POWER

  ALL PEOPLES  NATIONS AND MEN OF EVERY LANGUAGE

  WORSHIPPED HIM

   Now Satan the accusor of the bethern is abyssed by GRACE

   when He is let loose..he deceives those who have been given life as a free gift of grace not  by works, into surrounding
the camp of the HOLY CITY

  Blessed is the man whose sin is Not counted against him


  Mt 25;34  Then the King will say to those on his right,

  "Come,you, who are blessed by My Father; take your

inheritance, THE KINGDOM PREPARED FOR YOU SINCE THE

  CREATION OF THE WORLD

   the only ones thrown in the lake of fire and that go into the

secound death are the demonic/tares/goats .

  He seperates tares ' from each grain of wheat[man] that

He sowed in the earth and gathers it into the storehouse/barn

of HEAVEN.

   Jesus And Father GIVE US BACK WHAT WAS LOST IN THE GARDEN..that is why He says ;

  COME,YOU WHO ARE BLESSED BY MY FATHER

  TAKE YOUR INHERITANCE

[peacemaker]

Nathan  :goodpost:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer [heylel; the morning star], son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground ... (Isaiah 2:2)

... created He "them" as the first Adam?

Is not Jesus, the "day" star, the consuming fire, the second Adam who overcame his human nature?

"Just a thought for the time being, is short."

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the "day" (star) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire ... If any man's work (exerting effort directed to produce or accomplish something for themselves) shall be burned [katakaio; to burn down to the ground, to consume wholly, burn up, utterly –  from the intensity of that light], he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:13-15, also see Revelation 20:13-15)

[sheila]

  The secound death exists because Moses struck the rock twice.

  Satan was contending with Michael over MOSES body.  It is

  appointed for all men to die ONCE, and then the judgement.

   How are men harmed of the secound death?[secound strike]

   What's this first resurrection and the secound resurrection ?

   Jesus said I AM THE RESURRECTION..these Words I speak are

   ETERNAL  life. When He came the first time..the true words of

   God were spoken..giving life and the WORD OF GOD was put

to death on the cross.The Word of God abysses satan,and as

long as the apostles were alive in this world[1000yrs] they

hindered the man of lawlessness from entering and corrupting

the Word[chained and restrained his activity to mislead]


   Due to striking the Rock twice,two blows fell on the word of

God come in flesh.[two wittnesses/Jesus Christ and Holy spirit]

   

  We that have been resurrected by Him at this time of His

return,have been harmed by the secound death, for we have

been like sheep without a shepherd,skinned and thrown about.

wandering in the wilderness,unable to layhold the inheritance


  Instead of the Grace of God being sufficient..we have had the

yoke of the law and a double[2nd strike] of the law applied to

us.Jesus Christ and Holy spirit's testimony put to death.


  Satan released went about deceiving us,works of law based

salvation,instead of free gift,most perishing etc.Fear of being

everlastingly cut off from Him in judgement,wrath and eternal

destruction applied to mankind.The Lof judgement is applied to

the demonic  only..but we have been 'harmed' of it when we

beleived that those judgements were for us because of the

putting to death of the true testimony[lay as dead in the street]

   Resurrection of the righteous are the true Words of

God..Resurrection of the wicked are the anti-christ spirit putting

to death the testimony of Jesus and the Holy spirit.Striking

another blow of Judgement to the Body of Christ.


     But because the two wittnesses were killed,our first

resurrection has taken place at the time of His return.

   Rev 11;7 Now,when they have finished their testimony, the

beast,that come up out of the abyss will attack them,and

overpower and kill them.Their bodies will lie in the street of the

great city,which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt


   But after three and a half days a Breath of LIFE from GOD

ENTERED THEM, and they stood on their feet,and terror struck

those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven

saying to them,"COME UP HERE" And they went up to heaven in

a cloud while their enemies looked on

                            Sheila

[Livelystone]

Hi Sheila

You have written an interesting and thought provoking post.

My take on some of what is written in Scripture may be different then you or maybe just looked at different than you visualize it however I must admit I have never correlated the rock being stuck twice to the two witnesses of Revelation.

I do see us crucifying Him a second time by our failure to follow Him into resurrection and "sin no more".

However the times associated with the two witnesses of Revelation are all variations of the number 42 that we all know to be when we enter into the promise. We see this as 1260 divided by the 30 day jewish calendar month equaling 42 or as three one half days in years being 42 months because for sure when we complete our wilderness journey and no longer have to follow the fire or cloud it will because the fullness of the Spirit of God will enter into us allowing us to ascend unto heaven just as Jesus said he was in heaven while standing on earth........... thus all the world will see the two witnesses ascend unto heaven while they too will be on earth.......... this is the manifestation of the sons of God  :bgdance:

All of mankind will see the GWT immediately upon their death that is the second resurrection...... the first is available now and only in this life through Christ Jesus as we have already been born into the first state of death through our natural birth (yea I walk through the valley of death) thus Jesus has said blessed are those of the first resurrection. Once we do our natural death it is a second death and the first resurrection is no longer available to us.

We may go through hell now as fire will purify us but I personally do not buy into the LOF being in this life. My take on the LOF is a body of water that consist of many individual drops of water with each drop being a manifested son. At the present time there are no manifested sons of God on earth however I do believe that soon there will be a shout and "the dead in Christ" who have died to the flesh will rise first with signs and wonders following that all of the world will behold praise the Lord!!!

I know I speak rather assuredly concerning the resurrection of the dead but that is because I already experienced it once when flat-lined from an auto accident and eventually I learned to accept it and reject the church's teaching of 1000 years being literal.

I have a PDF of that experience and if you or anyone are interested in reading it PM me your e-mail.

Blessings

Doug

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Thank you Doug........I don't know why but I never really connected the number 42 with the two witnesses.......one of those "duh" moments over here, LOL.....Blessings.....

[Livelystone]

:cloud9: Thank you Doug........I don't know why but I never really connected the number 42 with the two witnesses.......one of those "duh" moments over here, LOL.....Blessings.....

Well iron sharpens iron and you have revealed things unto me in the past just as you will again  :HeartThrob:

I don't know why I never caught it earlier myself but that knowledge just recently came to me........ seems to me that there are lots of things like that going on these days to the extent that I have recently used the term that some are being force fed because the time is drawing near when He who opens the door will do so..........

But then He will shut it and consequently there will be those inside who are chosen to be on the inside where they were ordained to be before the foundations of the earth were ever made.............. On the other hand we all know the story of the foolish virgins who will not be on the inside.  :sigh:

Still I was publicly humbled so heavily a couple of weeks back that it came with many tears and I asked Him why He had forsaken me.......... then it came to me that I had forsaken Him by going ahead without Him and into a battle that was not yet appointed unto me to fight........ school of hard knocks is a very good teacher.

We are nothing without Him

Blessings

Doug

[rosered]

  Dear Bro Doug
  I want to thank you .

  I have read this  thread and your post    a few times now ..

  and also see a few connections ,   and it because of this thread

  the not being harmed by the second death[ In Christ body]     may have something to do with  Rev 9 those that are given power  come   up out of the pit to harm  as scorpions  stings for  5 months ........

i do not explain well :mblush:

   but  the  1290 days to the  1335 , it is  45  days  of waiting on the Lord  in Daniel 12  verses  11  , 12 and 13  have a big signifigance  in the two witnesses in rev   ch 11

  noted in Acts one it was forty days Act 1:1 ¶ The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 


Act 1:2   Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 


Act 1:3   To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

     There is no way  it is fitting for me  :mblush:

  but there is something  missing   that i am unable to grasp  :sigh:

  Do youor anyone know  what it is?
  :HeartThrob:  thanks alot all who have   shared  ...

[Beloved Servant]

Wonderful post Doug!
The Lake of fire is a body of Water with many individual drops!

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Martin...  :cloud9:

I post this answer in hopes you might LEARN... no disrespect toward you is intended...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

Don't mean offense brother M, but what you note below is LESS than truth as I see it for the following REASONABLE REASONS:

Is the lake of fire itself the second death, or is the second death the act of being cast into the lake of fire?

If universalism is true, why does this chapter of Revelation feel like nothing but doom for the unbelievers?

Being cast into the Lake of Fire is the second death.

We are all "cast" into this life... and ALL DEATH takes place here -- 1st -- that of the SPIRITUAL -- 2nd -- that of the FLESH...  :dontknow:

UR is true, but inspite of the implication of some of the Sovereignty teaching that's gone on around here as far as what it may convey to some minds, sin is still serious and will be dealt with forcefully even though there's still the promise of Ultimate Restoration.

FIRST -- No offense dear brother, but this is your opinion, nothing more... It is your perception that SIN shall be dealt with LATER -- in the FUTURE... and your proposal is DEVOID of PEACE, GOOD NEWS, and LOVE... For your proposal in purpose, is FEARFILLED THREATENING to others... no less than a BIG BULLY on a playground makes toward one smaller than himself... :pitiful:

There is much Scripture to attest that SIN is being dealt with -- NOW.  And it is quite SEVERE... as "seen" in INCURABLE DISEASE, RAMPANT IMMORALITY, not to mention the GROWING numbers of major NATURAL CATASTROPHES...  :dontknow:  What is all that stuff Martin?

SECOND -- "Sovereignty" is not allowed to be taught here... and when its truth slips in, only notes that GOD is at the ROOT of ALL THINGS... which is Scripturally stated -- Eph 1:11 -- Isaiah 46:10

Our choices matter.  The implication is still that it's something bad to be avoided, inspite of the implication of spiritual fire or the idea of touchstoning replacing the idea of torment for some people, or the fact that wrath in Strong's Concordance isn't necessarily the dark ages idea of wrath.  The Lake of Fire is still something to be avoided 'cause it's our Father's big paddle against sin.

The "LAKE of FIRE" -- CANNOT be AVOIDED by ANYONE! (irregardless your attempt to place it in "Linear/literal/chronological/Time-type terms")

This just amounts to more of your opinion bro,  against which Scripture plainly notes:

Rev 21:8 designates a LIST of "LOF" candidates/participants... and the HONEST will admit to being on this LIST, which is PLAINLY a description of ALL MEN... Let us examine the LIST for LOF candidates/participants:

(1) -- the FEARFUL -- if you have EVER been FEARFUL -- you qualify -- PERFECT LOVE -- casts OUT FEAR -- something cannot be CAST OUT of one, that was not there TO BEGIN WITH -- 1 John 4:18 -- WHERE & WHEN does "FEAR" take place? ---- IN THIS LIFE [the LOF].

(2) -- the ABOMINABLE -- Gk means STINK / disgusting -- wow!  Who can sidestep this one?  :laughing7: [P. U.]  :pointlaugh:

(3) -- the UNBELIEVING -- ALL have been concluded in UNBELIEF -- you qualify -- Rom 11:32 -- WHERE & WHEN does "UNBELIEF" take place? ---- IN THIS LIFE [the LOF].

(4) -- MURDERERS -- this includes ANYONE who has been ANGRY with a brother, without cause -- HONESTY notes ALL have done this at one time or another -- Matt 5:21-22 -- WHERE & WHEN does "MURDER" take place? ---- IN THIS LIFE [the LOF]

(5) -- WHOREMONGERS -- Gk word means "Fornicators" -- now this one might find a FEW that shall avoid it, ...but in truth, MOST have FORNICATED in their lives, either in MIND or in ACTION -- for even to THINK lustfully is to have committed this act -- Matt 5:28 -- WHERE & WHEN does "FORNICATION" take place? ---- IN THIS LIFE [the LOF]

(6) -- SORCERERS -- Gk word means -- those given over to drugs, things which cast a spell (mind altering), rooted in the word for MEDICATION, and/or MAGIC...  IOW substance abuse, or submitting to "magic".  Those who have been given over to BABYLONIAN teachings, shall have committed this one as well... As Paul addressed the perverted GOSPEL as "bewitched" -- Gal 3:1 -- falling for INIQUITOUS miracles, and WONDERS, performed supposedly in the NAME of CHRIST -- Matt 7:22 -- WHERE & WHEN does "SORCERY" take place? ---- IN THIS LIFE [the LOF]

(7) -- IDOLATORS -- well, this one speaks for itself.  Anyone who has "idolized" ANYTHING aside from God, has indulged in this.  A transgression of the basic and HOLY LAW of God -- Ex 20:1-2 -- ANYONE pointing a finger at another is a hypocrite concerning this one -- WHERE & WHEN does "IDOLATRY" take place?

(8) -- LIARS -- Again, an ALL-MAN qualifier -- Rom 3:4

So ALL men (honestly or dishonestly) easily QUALIFY as "candidates/participants" for the LOF, irregardless of the perception of "WHEN" it is taking place.  :dontknow:

Which exposes ALL MEN, for what they ARE (in this LOF):

LEAN -- MEAN -- fearfilled, unbelievin', stinkin', murderin', fornicatin', idolizin', lyin', drug takin', magic makin' -- MACHINES...   :sigh:

Some things about the eons that we're living in are our schooling, while other things like the Lake of Fire is the equivalent of being sent to the Principal's [or Head Schoolmaster's] Office.  

To me, it's growing increasingly clear that the Lake of Fire is the flaming version of Noah's Flood.  It'll be this earth being transformed according to 2Peter 3, but brimstone or sulphur is a quality of volcanoes.

Peter makes no such indication that his descriptive words in this passage, takes place at the END of time...

It simply mentions the "DAY of the Lord" -- in which the Scripture plainly SAYS --

Gen 2:1 -- These are the GENERATIONS of the heavens and of the earth, WHEN they [each generation] were created, in the DAY that YHVH God made the heavens and the earth  -- and,

This passage in 2 Peter also notes the PASSING AWAY with "fervent heat" of the WORKS of men -- 2 Pet 3:10 -- WHERE & WHEN do our "works" PASS AWAY?  IN THIS LIFE [the LOF] --

As I have maintained, MANY explanations of the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST, take place in the book of Genesis -- this is one!

Part of Adam's "curse" was that --

Gen 3:19 -- In the SWEAT of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken, for dust thou are, and unto dust shalt thou return

"SWEAT" is a by product of "HEAT" and WORK, which both PASS AWAY --  :dontknow:

If you're up on top of a large volcano, you're essentially on top of a mountain.  If you look across the flaming soup if it's subdued enough for you to get that close, then yeah, that's a Lake.  A frightening one!  Whatever the Lake of Fire entails, that's still the imagery associated with it, even if someone wants to argue spiritual rather than nature fire from the translation.

Where do you draw the line between LITERAL and SPIRITUAL imagery, Martin?  Upon what authority do you base this dissection of God's WORD?

GOD's WORDS are SPIRITUAL in their ENTIRETY...  Your proposal above, is FEAR... which is an element, when present is that which notes the state of INCOMPLETION concerning PERFECT LOVE! -- 1 John 4:18

Even if someone wanted to argue that it's the death of death that's the Second Death, don't lose sight of the fact that those whose names aren't written in the Lamb's book of life are still chucked in.  I don't believe that hyperbole is being used where that's concerned.  But yes, all will one day be restored and all will one day be transformed into His own perfections according to the power that He has for subduing/transforming all things into Himself according to Ephesians 1:10 and Philippians 3:21.  Jesus Christ is the ransom for all men, according to 1Timothy 2.

Lose sight?  Hmmm  :Chinscratch:  Let's see what Scripture says Martin,

(1) How many did CHRIST's life encompass? -- 1 Cor 15:22 --
(2) How many did He DIE for? -- Heb 2:9 --
(3) How many SINS are yet left UNPAID for? -- John 1:29 -- 1 Tim 2:6

I think that maybe it is you dear brother, who may have "lost sight"...  :sigh:

In what way does this "gospel" bear "GOOD NEWS", Martin?  Where in this "gospel" is GLAD TIDINGS?  Do you think noting to be AFRAID of GOD, is the way LOVE is established?  You present God as an "I'm bigger than you, so you WILL LOVE me" kinda guy... eh?

Or is LOVE quite different than INTIMIDATING POWER?  LOVE, adores, preserves, provides, patiently nurtures, and protects its OBJECTS... NOT threatens them with IMMEASUREABLE COSMIC sized BICEPS!

Do you also think that proposing that GOD shall "only" burn them (unbelievers/sinners) for a TIME in a literal "volcanic-like" LAKE, is somehow -- "GOOD NEWS"?

The TRUTH is, that this is just another IMPURE version of -- "GOOD NEWS" -- which IMPERSONATES news that is TRULY "GOOD"... something on this order:

EXAMPLE -- If I were to tell someone "hey here is some GOOD NEWS!  You will win the LOTTO today!  But you will have to be thrown in a pit of FIRE, and burn for a few days to collect it... but don't worry, we have plenty of ALOE VERA you can use when you get out of the pit, and besides... after that you'll be RICH!"  :mshock:

This example, is basically YOUR VERSION of the "gospel" Martin...  :sigh:

What PEACE is found in this "presentation" of the MESSAGE of LOVE, bro?

But the Biblical importance of repentance, discipleship, and sanctification to the Gospel doesn't put a Biblically based Christian Universalist at too great of a distance from the understanding of someone believing in eternal separation or eternal destruction.

Speak for yourself bro... I wish to have NOTHING to do with BABYLON, or their false thinking... you are welcome to as much or as little of it, as you might so choose.

By this statement you appear to have "one foot in" and "one foot out" of the "church"  brother M...

Apparently by your words above, having decided that YOU are the authority as to who is, and who is NOT, ...a "Biblically based Christian Universalist" -- eh?  Subliminally saying, that YOUR vision of the Salvation of ALL is the measure of "BIBLICAL observation"?  Please! :rolleye:

I see this statement is "holding ONE hand" with ET believers -- and thereby you percieve yourself as "not so distant" from them...

Other than the belief of JESUS CHRIST as Savior... I have nothing "biblically" in common with them, nor do I wish any proximity to them, ...even though I remain in prayer for them all, as brothers and sisters...  :Pray:

We just don't slander the purpose of God, or exaggerate the duration of His judgments, or create finality on what's only the beginning for some.

"...create finality on what's only the beginning for SOME?"???  I thought GOD was PERFECTLY IMPARTIAL Martin!  :mshock:

How can GOD (who PLAINLY notes in 10 verses  [I'll list them if you need them] that He is IMPARTIAL), ...call Himself IMPARTIAL, with THIS as His "method":

(1)  YOU who are a SINNER, "get off" (with no "torment" for your sins) because HE gave you the "ability" to BELIEVE and HE thereby "CLEANSED you" and,

(2) then to those to whom He GAVE NOT that "ability"... they shall be TORTURED by literal FIRE, for a "time" in order to be "CLEANSED"?

That sounds to me as if GOD "let YOU off the hook" with nothing but a confession (which He EMPOWERED you to do -- 1 Cor 12:3) -- but others will have to SUFFER DEARLY [burning in FIRE] to be reconciled.  :sigh: :rolleye:

He's after a change in life in all of His judgments and a total surrender to Christ Jesus as Lord from all of His creatures.  But the Scriptures do insist from cover to cover in there being something both awesome and dreadfully fearful in His judgments.  He doesn't play around until we're on the exact same page with Him.

:omg:  No offense, ...but IMO, in many ways you have seen little concerning the truth dear brother.  You maintain that you present the LOVE of God and His "LOVE" message, the GOSPEL... when the GOSPEL is GOOD NEWS ONLY, and the Scriptures CLEARLY state that LOVE has NO FEAR within it --- yet your version of the "gospel" is FULL of FEARFUL proposals!!!

...willieH (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

[Livelystone]

Hello RR

With Dan 12 (and most of the rest of Daniel) you are getting into what is for the most part pretty far over my head.

Still I was thinking about that 45 number and was was wondering about the time length between when Daniel wrote of the truth being taken out of the sacrifice and when Jesus appeared...... wasn't that like 450 years that they waited for the Messiah?

I would not even know what to use for a starting date on when the abomination that was the absence of truth in the praises that comes forth from our lips........ One date I would try would be the year that the Apostle John died however I am grasping at straws.

Still if you add the time of maturity (30) that Jesus was when He started His ministry to the 1260 for the 42 generations for us you get 1290 and IMO you are getting a double witness so that may well be a good direction to follow up on


Sorry I cannot help you more  :sigh:


Hi Beloved

Thanks for the kind words....... you are always most gracious. 

IMO once the sons are manifested God will rest because His work will be completed........ death and hell are thrown into the LOF and the sons will continue the work of their Father.

Luke 6:1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.


Blessings

Doug