I Have Little Idea Right Now

[jabcat]

I'm in that place with the Book of Revelation, that I am so confused.  I just had read J. Preston Eby's take on it, how he sees it as occurring within the believer.  I have started reading it again, and honestly, I just am not seeing it that way.  He also says if you don't see it that way, then you're just not able to see it spiritually, or something like that.

Some say it's all future - get ready for the tribulation, Armegeddon, the rapture, most of the population of earth will be wiped out, things burned, bombed, generally destroyed.  Then the big battle where Jesus and the saints win, then most go to hell forever and a "few" (millions and millions?) go fly around in the clouds.

Some say the first few chapters are fulfilled, but the rest is future.

Some say parts here and there are fulfilled, some pieces not (take your pick).

Some say it's all literal - some say all spiritual - some say some literal, some spiritual (take your pick).

Some say it belongs earlier in the scriptures, some say at the end.

Some say we're seeing the "signs of the end", some say there will be "no end", it all just gets better and better from here.

Some say it's ALL fulfilled, not IN THE INDIVIDUAL, but in Jerusalem, 70 AD.

We have pre, mid, post-Mil, no mil.  A literal heaven, a literal beast, a literal burning hell, a literal 666, literal clouds, literal horns, literal trumpets - some say "phooey, it's all spiritual".  THEY CITE THE WORD "SIGNIFIED" AS PROVING IT'S ALL SPIRITUAL.  But although that can be ONE definition, it's not the ONLY.  It can also mean along the lines of something being told, passed along, given, explained, described, etc.

After reading J. Preston, I thought I might be ready to "tackle" Revelation again.  Now, maybe not so much.   :sigh:

I know we have umpteen different POVs even on here.  Maybe someone though will say SOMETHING that clicks and brings perspective.  MAYBE  :mshock: it's a matter of prayer for the Lord to reveal to me.  Imagine that  :winkgrin:.

[WhiteWings]

Random quote of the day" "Father is not the author of confusion."  :laughing7:
Of one thing I'm very sure; in part it did proveble happen literally is the past.
But even if I can prove everything did happen literally it still doesn't prove there are also other variations. Sometimes I even have the impression part of Genesis and Exodus repeated in a different way.

He also says if you don't see it that way, then you're just not able to see it spiritually, or something like that.

Classic arrogance. The fun thing is that the same people often say they believed in ET before. I would say that would have made them humble; and not so conviced of their own superiority...

[jabcat]

Random quote of the day" "Father is not the author of confusion."  :laughing7:

You know Tony, great quote.  In this case, I'm not sure how to apply it.   :mshrug:.

Maybe it's don't be confused, just admit I don't understand/not yet revealed regarding The Book of Revelation, and trust God to show it to me.  Like I said, if I ask men, there's a whole bunch of different POVs from different people that I respect.   :sigh:

[noname]

here's my jab at it...no pun intended jabcat  :bigGrin:

what is the all encompassing message of revelation?

It is that God will triumph, His Kingdom will be established in a new earth and heaven...the old ways of the world WILL fall...and those who cling to it, will fall with it

so God warns us about destruction if we hang onto a world system which does not honour Him...He offers us a way out...again...cling to Him

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Jab, this is one of my strongest personal thoughts, I spent over 8 years in prison, I met 100's of liers (religionist), through mail order, this is how I first was turned on to UR, But, one thing that I use to do is "I would check every quote-every reference to bible-in a concordance,(youngs-strongs) to start with, and even the other junk ones...

As I progressed along in UR, J.P. Eby's work never had "one" error in his writings and I read them all - all. Revelation is one that I have read at least 10 times and checked every meaning, and I had come to the understanding that he is the most accurate and I say accurate in misquotes, twisting of scripture and leading people down personal ajenda roads. i.e. He don't do this, and all the others did, like most prison ministry types, baptist, JWitness's and most (all I found) organized religious groups.

So if you took his writings to be %100 Spiritual, that is truly in your own thinking, I do admit that is most of his belief, although he knows that there was many carnal fulfillments of Rev., and he refers to many peoples thought patterns, but at least he give most of the options for his readers to look at. So please don't dis allow him in your library of knowledge...

My personal thoughts, Lee Damboise II

[reFORMer]

While Scripture does say God is not the author of confusion, but of peace (1 Co 14:33) the context is a publicly accessible (not private with select participants) kind of meeting.  To not offend them everybody all at the same time should not speak in tongues or prophecy; only tongues if there is interpretation, and though everybody should prophecy, it should be no more than two or three at most.

There is a problem when the idea God is not the author of confusion is used for ideas that are new to us.  Almost everybody has what was given to them to believe.  It was like a rape.  We were born into other men's homes.  They subjected us to their gods.  We were forced to believe what was taught in their schools of thought withour our exercise of any critical thinking.  We trusted those that surroundeded us and taught us.  They determined what was "orthodox," which is right thinking, and "orthoprax," which is right doing.  We could call this "orthonoia," or, "the right mind," at least what is approved as right by traditions (what is handed down) of men.

When the truth comes into that kind of mind there is an experience of confusion.  We don't know what to think, the old idea or the new. What should we do? what we've always done, or something different? will we lose or gain? which way?  This could be named "paranoia," or, "beside mind."

Out of this turmoil, as we accept the increase of light our minds are changed (metanoia -- which gets translated "repent" rather than "change mind' as it really is.)  This "metanoia" is the new mind, the mind of Christ coming through us into the earth from the heavens.

[jabcat]

Good input guys.  Thanks.  That cognitive dissonance as we learn and are shown new things makes sense.  As always, the context of the confusion verse makes sense  :thumbsup:.

[jabcat]

Jab, this is one of my strongest personal thoughts, I spent over 8 years in prison, I met 100's of liers (religionist), through mail order, this is how I first was turned on to UR, But, one thing that I use to do is "I would check every quote-every reference to bible-in a concordance,(youngs-strongs) to start with, and even the other junk ones...

As I progressed along in UR, J.P. Eby's work never had "one" error in his writings and I read them all - all. Revelation is one that I have read at least 10 times and checked every meaning, and I had come to the understanding that he is the most accurate and I say accurate in misquotes, twisting of scripture and leading people down personal ajenda roads. i.e. He don't do this, and all the others did, like most prison ministry types, baptist, JWitness's and most (all I found) organized religious groups.

So if you took his writings to be %100 Spiritual, that is truly in your own thinking, I do admit that is most of his belief, although he knows that there was many carnal fulfillments of Rev., and he refers to many peoples thought patterns, but at least he give most of the options for his readers to look at. So please don't dis allow him in your library of knowledge...

My personal thoughts, Lee Damboise II

Hi Lee.  Yes, I respect Mr. Eby's writings, and have learned from him.  With your sin-free beliefs, what are your thoughts about all the references in Revelation about overcoming, those who overcome, as well as the martyred saints under the altar?  Thanks, James.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

The same as I have always thought, that Revelation is not for the Gentile in a carnal or literal way, "But" in the Spiritual way, it is the unvailing of God's son IN ALL Mankind...in a progressive manner, never ending.

the overcomers of The Revelation book are those the become attached to the body of Christ or the part of the Bride that births the Body/becomes attached to the Body sort of speaking , all mankind comes out of God and all mankind i.e. the ones that rose with Chirst at Rezz day, and all those after, (two systems)(Old / New ) sorry to swing the batt at this subject but all peoples before Rezz day are IN God Through His Son and ALL those after Rezz day was made( "past tense" )alive --vivified. There is no death, Christ killed it and the alledged devil...

Sorry to be offensive to some of us, UR's... Doug for one.

[SQ]

I found this teaching on Revelation, not read much yet but is interesting so far.

http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/Revelation_Chapter_One.php

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: For me, it's settled with the first line....."The Revelation of Jesus Christ". He's not about a patch of land ANYWHERE, but in US, the dust of the earth, waiting to be revealed, as Paul said of the glory waiting to be revealed, IN US.

There was one night many years ago, that He put me in the book and opened the eyes of my understanding for about an hour and a half before the anointing "wore off". Although He did not let my carnal remembrance retain all of it, I read and understood thru the Spirit, enough to know the whole book is spiritual in nature.

And I think that's exactly why He did it, so I would know and not be dragged into the endless Revelation diatribes from the ones that only seek to know IT (as opposed to knowing HIM personally), and that thru their carnal mind. They're easy to spot; many "ministries" have made millions fleecing the flock by promoting fear over what the book of Revelation supposedly reveals. Blessings....

[Livelystone]

:cloud9: For me, it's settled with the first line....."The Revelation of Jesus Christ". He's not about a patch of land ANYWHERE, but in US, the dust of the earth, waiting to be revealed, as Paul said of the glory waiting to be revealed, IN US.

Blessings....

My sentiments exactly  :thumbsup:

Regarding a couple of comments posted in this thread such as "us tackling Revelations" I kinds think it is the other way around for me as I can be reading elsewhere in the scriptures or maybe even working in the yard when either an understanding of a passage will come or the direction to go somewhere in the scriptures where the answer is waiting........ to me it is more like Revelations tackles us.

When some of the answers in Revelations started to appear at the same time the rest of the Bible Prophecies started to unfold that some of I did not even see as being prophetic in earlier readings of the same scripture. As Jesus said man shall live by every word that proceeds out from God and IMO nothing unlocks prophecies and allegories as much as being familiar with all of the word and especially the Law.

Also IMO where it says that God is not the author of confusion I look at that as God is never the author of contradiction. God does not change and the same God of Abraham is the same Father of Jesus as well as the author of the voice I hear guiding me through the scriptures.

Blessings

Doug

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen  :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

     I believe the revelation of Jesus Christ is like so much of the word, a multi dimensional prophecy that speaks on many levels. At first it seems like jigsaw puzzle, and we try to find how the pieces fit doctrinally and historically.
Then, just as maybe we think we see something coming together like a two dimensional outline, it deepens before our eyes into a three dimensional image with depths we cannot fully fathom.

   From my perspective, at this time, the revelation speaks to me about the Body of Christ and the purposes of God in it. I notice that Jesus begins with the stars(presbyteries) in His hands walking among the Lampstands(churches). Then He reproves, rebukes and exhorts the messengers (presbyteries) of these prototypical local churches, gatherings of called out ones, bodies of believers. Then we see many pictures, most of them relating to the simultaneous work of the Body on earth from its place in the heavenlies, seated in Christ above all principality and power.

    We see a giant messenger with the everlasting good news in his hand, clothed in a cloud, rainbow crowned Head in the heavens, beautiful feet upon the land and the sea(Heb 12:1,2). We see the elders surrounding the throne casting their crowns at His feet(1 Pe 5:1-4; Eph 4:1-3) and the saints under the altar(Ro 12:1-3;Acts 4:23-35) crying out to God, and as the incense rises, peals of thunder and lightning roar out from the throne, and the foundations are shaken. We hear the seraphim worship, their wings as the sound of ten thousands of ten thousands of voices singing "Holy,Holy, Holy Lord God Almighty who was and is to come, the WHOLE EARTH is full of His glory!"(1 Cor 14:24-26) We see the Bride gestating, in "the unity of faith", a "mature man unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of the son of God", as the dragon pours out his flood(craftiness of men in deceitful scheming, deceiving and being deceived)(Eph 4:11-16). Finally, the Spirit and the Bride say COME!. Come where? Come into the wedding supper of the Lamb. Celebrate the union of Christ and the Bride- the New Jerusalem  COMING DOWN OUT OF THE HEAVENLIES- revealed in the earth as the dwelling place of the souls of His feet and His throne, a light to all nations and a habitation of the Spirit of God. This is where God is calling us -"Today, if we hear His voice", the Canaan (the purchased possession, Eph 1:15-23) that awaits those who harden not their hearts, cease from their own works, and enter those works prepared before the foundation of the world.

Let the one who has ears to hear, hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches.Perhaps on another level the book speaks to the individual just as profoundly, but when we categorize and limit something like the revelation of Jesus Christ that John received for the servants, the fellow-workers in Christ, I think we make a profound error. I would never dare to say "let the one who has ears to hear- hear what my ears have heard for everyone".

Rev 22:16-17  `I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!  And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing--let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting--let him come; and he who is willing--let him take the water of life freely.(YLT)

[jabcat]

really makes a lot of sense eaglesway...thanks...nice "summary"


I read this today...Revelation 19:6 Then I heard something like the voices of a great crowd, and something like the sound of many waters, and something like the sound of strong peals of thunder, saying, "Halleluyah ["Praise You, God"]!    Now a voice came out from the throne, saying, "For the Master our God, the Almighty, has begun to reign!"

My thought being, has begun to reign?   Thoughts?

[Beloved Servant]

Because, in the past, His servants have passed away, NOW is the time that His word will not perish from the lips of those who love Him.

[jabcat]

OK, I think I know what you're saying David.  Thanks.

[eaglesway]

   Thats some awesome stuff. I am looking at the whole picture there, which includes the 24 elders and the context includes praises sung because God has judged the great whore. This context reaches back through the entire 18th chapter with many relative descriptions. I know there are always simultaneous truths, because God has judged Babylon(Mystery Sodom & Egypt, the harlot bride) through the ascension and Headship of Christ, yet "we do not yet see" all things subject to Him. In vs. 6, I looked at it in the Greek and several translations and it seems that it could read for the Lord God omnipotent "reigns", or, "has begun to reign".
   I believe we are seated in Christ above all principality and power, so as we experience ascension life, as sons, we see more and more the present reign of God. Yet also as I see it, there will be a time when "the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of our God and His Messiah"(Rev 11:17 at the sounding of the 7th angel).
   So I also see this (19:6) as a prophetic forsight towards the end of this age when the ongoing fornication between the kings and the nations of earth with the Babylonian church system will end because "the word of the Lord will cover the earth as the water covers the sea" and "the mountain of the Lord is exalted above all the other mountains", and they will beat there swords into plowshears and a fool shall no longer be called wise.

   Sort of like Psalm  2 -   Why are the nations in an uproar And the peoples devising a vain thing?  The kings of the earth take their stand And the rulers take counsel together Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,  "Let us tear their fetters apart And cast away their cords from us!"
He who sits in the heavens laughs, The Lord scoffs at them. Then He will speak to them in His anger And terrify them in His fury, saying, "But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
  "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. 'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession. 'You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.'"
   Now therefore, O kings, show discernment; Take warning, O judges of the earth. Worship the LORD with reverence And rejoice with trembling. Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!

It is a present truth with an ultimate fulfillment yet to come.

[jabcat]

I found this teaching on Revelation, not read much yet but is interesting so far.

http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/Revelation_Chapter_One.php

thanks sq...starting to read it now  :bigGrin:

[jabcat]

I believe it all has a spiritual application (often not sure what), but still questioning/comparing the historical/fulfilled, future, "internal revealing" aspects.  One thing that brought that back to the surface for me was recently reading in the Christian Bible, this translation;  Rev. 1:1  "This is the revelation from [FROM, emp. mine] Yesu that God gave to Him to show His slaves what has to occur with a short time."

Also read this from chapter 2 within the past couple of days that caught my attention and IMO, contains multiple details worth discussion and consideration;

"Now to the Messenger of the group of Called Ones in Pergamum [which means, Thorougly Married'] write;  Now the One who has the sharp two-edged blade, says this:  I am aware of where you are making a home, it is where Satan's throne is;  but you are holding onto My name [Yesu], and haven't disowned your faith in Me, even during the days of My trustworthy witness Antipas [meaning;  Anti-Pope (against CHURCHanity and its hierarchies)], who was killed among you, there where Satan [the Adversary] is making a home.  But I have a few things against you, that you have there those [CHURCHites] who are holding onto the teaching of Balaam [a prophet who prophesied for pay and taught people to mix paganism with true worship], who kept teaching Balak how to throw an obstacle that can cause one to trip before the sons of Israel, how to get them to eat idol sacrifices, and how to get them to have nonmarital sexual intercourse.  So then you must change your thoughts and feelings!  Yet if you don't, I'm definitely going to come to you quickly....Whoever is conquering, I will give some of the hidden Manna biscuit, and I will give him a white pebble with a new name written on it that no one is aware of except the person who is obtaining it.  From Rev. 2, The Christian Bible (1991)

[Nathan]

My two cents are these . . .
God want's intimacy with us as individuals.  There are many with many different opinions on what they believe, but only when I have a personal experience of my own, can I then receive my own revelation of what is truth to me. 

Other people's comments are signs leading here and there, but my comments can only lead one "to" the threshold of intimacy.  Only the Spirit can usher us "in" his intimacy.  We're all at different places in our maturity in our growing process, so we're all going to have different levels of revelation.

I'm reminded of when Joseph wrestled with the angel and he persisted on knowing the angels name . . .but it wasn't for him to know.  I think we are to experience all truths, but not all at one time.  It's a progressive process.  But along the way, may we continue to be lights and extensions of His love to one another along the way.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Jab, if you have time Peter D's youtube videos Beloved Servant posted under the Death Fighters thread are short and you might glean there....

[Beloved Servant]

Did God reveal His Plan in a pattern for a corporate Priesthood in the Levites ?

He is looking for a few "good" believers to put His Plan into operation.  How many are needed? If the Levites of Exodus 3:39 are a pattern -- God needs 22,000 (born from above, sold out, submissive) believers all over the Earth to make up a Priesthood Body -- to present this message of Hope to the world.  Hope is the anchor of the soul which enters within the veil (Heb. 6:19 paraphrase).

A friend, in whose church I was teaching the Tabernacle, said something to me which has proven to be an unchanging truth.  My friend was an unlettered black pastor who had profound Godly wisdom in homespun sayings.  He said; "You can't anymore become what you already are than you can come back from where you have never been." (S. Golden).

I believe that God wanted Israel, while they were in the Wilderness, to learn that the "Promised Land" was not geographical -- but spiritual.  
Moses said to them: "For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.  It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it:  Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it.  But the Word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.  See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil" (Deut. 30:11-15).

Doesn't that sound a lot like what Jesus said; "...The kingdom of God cometh not with observation;  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for behold, the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke  17:20-21).

It surely looks like to me that Jesus was teaching the same truth that Moses was teaching.  The Kingdom of Heaven is not a place to go to -- it is not something you do -- it is a person called the Word -- He is nigh unto you, in your heart and in your mouth.  Christ in you is the city; He is the government; and He will fill your whole earth.

The scriptures teach that Abraham looked for a city whose builder and maker is God.  Jesus said to His disciples: "Ye are the light of the world.  A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid" (Matt. 5:14).  Can you see the inference; "the light of Christ which is given you is a city which cannot be hidden" (Matt. 5:14 paraphrase).  

God has hidden the Seed in you -- He had hidden His Kingdom within you -- He hid His City (the New Jerusalem) within you.  He is your Hope -- you are His  Hope.

The word translated "city" in Hebrew is Strong¹s #5892: "Ayar" -- to open the eyes; to awake.  This sounds to me like Our Father is saying; "Come on, wake up.  Wake up to who you are. You have been trying to go to where you already are."  Wouldn't it be something to get there only to find that you had been there, all the time?  

"Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon you" (Isaiah 60:1).

                                                                                                                                                              — Rudy Jones
                                                                                                                                                              www.sigler.org/rjones/aboutme.htm

[Molly]

I have a friend who insists the antiChrist is a man who will appear on the scene and fool the whole world.   Haven't we already had enough of that?  The world is sick and tired of being fooled by men [and women].  I like the simple step by step described in Rev 20 [I'm still enough of a literalist].

 Nothing there about an antiChrist world leader.   They are trying so hard--can you imagine the hubris?--to control the whole world like the worst abusive and controlling husband you've ever met.  But, they will not succeed.   I cling to this--

45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
--Dan 2


The stone uncut by human hands will smash the feet of clay and the whole evil system will come tumbling down.


...and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
--Dan 2


These days I see evil like I have never seen before, but I also see the mind of Christ everywhere, too, in a way I have never seen before.   Something different has been happening, bubbling, beneath the scenes for a long time, and it now seems ready to burst forth.  The world is waking up, coming out of a 6000 year sleep.



Look at this video.  Who has ever seen a thing like this before?  Young and old coming together spontaneously  to delight the people of the world [they rehearsed 2 times--17 million views]. Look at the faces of the observers, shock and suspicion turning to surprise and joy  To me, this is one facet of the mind of Christ bursting upon the world.   It will not be denied.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EYAUazLI9k

[jabcat]

1 ...I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

2 .. behold, there was a throne set in heaven, and one sitting upon the throne;

3 and he that sat was to look upon like a diamond [last of Israel] and a sardius [first of Israel]: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, like a green emerald [Judah].

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty thrones: and upon the thrones I saw four and twenty elders sitting, arrayed in white garments; and on their heads crowns of gold.

5 And out of the throne proceed lightnings and voices and thunders. And there was seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;

6 and before the throne, as it were a sea of glass like a crystal; and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, four living creatures full of eyes before and behind.

7 And the first creature was like a lion [symbolizing nobility], and the second creature like a calf [symbolizing strength], and the third creature had a face as of a man [symbloizing intelligence], and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle [symbolizing swiftness].

8 and the four living creatures, having each one of them six wings, are full of eyes round about and within: and they have no rest day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come.

9 And when the living creatures shall give glory and honor and thanks to him that sitteth on the throne, to him that liveth for ever and ever,

10 the four and twenty elders shall fall down before him that sitteth on the throne, and shall worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and shall cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Worthy art thou, our Lord and our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power: for thou didst create all things, and because of thy will they were, and were created.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FObjd5wrgZ8