What is the motive?

[Andrew]

I found this post on a you tube page.

"I truly want to believe in universalism but what about the "spiritual warfare" that is going on between good and evil, the "battle of our souls"? The rapidly growing new age movement is clearly from an evil source leading people astray, it is a fact that the movement was founded by satanists. There have been countless cases of people being posessed by their "spirit guides" or channeled aliens who were really demons in disguise. What is the motive of these demons if all are saved? Literally all channeled beings teach the same things, from the first glance it's all love and light but they mix in completely destructive beliefs like "there is no good or bad, they're just projections of the ego" and "you create your entire reality", for example . They also teach that you should raise your consciousness in order to ascend to higher stages and that god isn't an individual consciousness but an force the entire universe is made of. And thus you and everyone is god. These teachings are common with pretty much all channeled messages. How can we be so sure that the commonly held view among christians, that there is evil in the world who wants your soul and that people who are deceived are going to lose their soul to the evil side? Also there are multiple very vivid reports of people going to hell during NDE's. I want to believe in universalism but it just doesn't seem very realistic considering all the evidence."


I think he makes a good point when he says "What is the motive of these demons if all are saved". I have wondered that myself as I had been in the "channeled message" new age movement for many years. Why do they teach that there is no hell and its all about love? And yet clearly these beings are demonic as I have experienced.     

I don't think this has been adequately explained from a universalist perspective.

- Andrew   

[DanielB]

I do find new age stuff to be very diabolical, not that all people that believe in it believe in it out of malice(although many are greedy, perverse, vain, etc), I consider new agers to be victims of their own belief system. Many people probably just want a sense of connection or love or hope and are led into empty(or worse than empty) New Age beliefs like pantheism/oneism, occultism, and so on.


It is important to distinguish between Biblical universalism and pluralism and new age beliefs. Universalism sadly attracts many people that believe in it without any good foundation or even pluralists pretending to be Christians and so on. That is not any evidence against Biblical universal salvation. It attracts such people because it is a pleasant belief, it attracts wishy-washy wishful thinkers that don't have any "mean/cold-prickly" beliefs, along with those of us that actually respect the Bible and don't found our beliefs in wishful thinking.


Does anyone really know the motives of demons? Their intentions or at least the devil's intention is to steal kill and destroy but I have no idea what motivates them. Probably out of ignorance(of God, himself, or truth in general) or out of some motivation that would not make sense to humans. Do the motivations of demons have to make any sense? They are demons! If they tried to win some sort of victory against God, they must be woefully ignorant or have some sort of incomprehensible thought process or motivation.

Maybe they are trying to stall God's plans for as long as they can(out of self preservation or something), but who knows? Unless the Bible tells us, it is all speculation.

[GodIsLove]

A million things to tackle in those questions but here's a basic one:

Who says demons know about UR?! Are they all knowing? Nope.

[GodIsLove]

Ok ok taking the bait to tackle some more:

First the person says they don't believe in channeled messages being truthful. Why do they then believe hellish NDEs are truthful? Both are personal spiritual experiences. The person is just choosing to believe the experiences that validate his or her currently held belief, which is called confirmation bias. Also, if he is going to use NDEs as proof, he should be aware that the vast majority of NDEs are experiences of love and going toward a light, feeling at peace and "home." He is choosing to use hellish NDEs as his evidence when they are in the minority when compared to the positive NDEs. And in all of the hellish NDEs, the people escaped by calling out to God/Jesus, which is evidence that hell is NOT eternal.

Hilarious that the word realistic is used when the idea of eternal hell seems more realistic than a creator reconciling his creation, I can't even begin to unpack how many years of religious conditioning it takes for someone to think of eternal hell as a realistic outcome.

Like I said before, demons are not omniscient, they don't necessarily know the outcome. It's not the Christian idea that the devil and his demons are in a race against Jesus and his angels to see who can win more souls. That isn't even biblical. It reduces our lives to a gamble between two equally matched opponents, with the devil ultimately stronger than the GOD WHO CREATED HIM because he's said to win more souls in the end. Insanity!

My current mindset is that demons would be likened to evil humans. Evil humans don't know the end result either, they are just operating out of selfishness, self-satisfaction, self-entertainment, the desire for power over others, etc. They are doing what they do for the short term power it gives them, even if long term it just leads self-destruction. There's a willful denial that they will self destruct, and there's usually not much thought about the future in general, it's all about satisfying urges in the present tense. Whatever negative spiritual beings are, I don't know for sure, but I imagine that is the case.

As an aside, I read some articles about former "spiritual warfare" people who took the route of ignoring the demons/spiritual war etc...and the negative experiences stopped. RESIST the devil and he will flee. Set your mind on the higher things. This has been my goal, after initially getting caught up in the fear and distraction of spiritual warfare, I have found that ignoring that has made it cease, as long as I am trying to keep the focus on love/God.

And if your litmus test is that only true Christians are attacked by evil/demons...is that even biblical? Think of the Bible stories, and those who were plagued were usually NOT Christians. I think it's a new wave Christian thought to want to feel this battle waging. If you stop thinking there's a battle, the battle ceases.

Plus I've known non Christian people to have bad dreams, sleep paralysis, etc, so it's not unique to Christians, but if people want to believe it is, they will see evidence of their belief all around them, again, this is called confirmation bias. It could be they are just bad dreams, and religious teaching is mixing with scenes from movies etc. we really can't know this side of the veil.

[Age-enduring]

I've written some notes about a couple of personal situations I'm in - was inspired to write them by this thread.

In short. Motivations are either I or other focused.  Here's the notes:

It is noted that 'spiritual warfare' has its own torment. Looking for a fight always drags one down. So, 'resisting' is a good maxim.
There is a point where commanding demons to leave/go is necessary, if Jesus model is correct / to be believed.  Demons are probably pre-flood spirits - they are people, much the same as us, with an appointed time for destruction / refining (reconciliation).
We must be clear about what (& when) one must resist, to avoid compromise - discernment is required.
Biggest single factor that pulls us down in spiritual warfare / life is blame / judgement; and in targeting the issue, that we do not wrestle against flesh and blood - the person we see is only a means for the manifestation of the issue - it is not 'them' per se. We have to get our eyes off the person / demon or we will become paralysed.
We cannot however ignore it, so we have an 'opposing thoughts' paradox (problem/solution trance). We know there's a problem but to fix it we have to get out eyes off of it! This happens through seeking the Father only, and his face - not me but him. Compassion (and other greater gifts: discernment, love, revelation etc ) for the afflicted is only given by Him, and power, ultimately for the hardest cases is only through prayer and fasting. It's not about me.

[GodIsLove]

I can probably agree with that distinction.

[Andrew]

Posted by God is Love

"As an aside, I read some articles about former "spiritual warfare" people who took the route of ignoring the demons/spiritual war etc...and the negative experiences stopped"

Do you have a link for this? - that is an interesting topic...my only counter arguement would be perhaps the devil wanted them to stop the warfare against him so he stopped the negative experiences once they stopped - in the same manner some Christians have said that if you stop walking with Christ the devil will leave you alone as you are no longer a threat to his kingdom (perhaps because you are now in his kingdom)...I don't know- id have to see the context of the situations you refered to.   

And I thought your response was very well thought out and does give me some more hope

Thanks

Andrew 

[CHB]

Didn't Jesus say to "resist the Devil and he will flee from you"? Wouldn't that apply to demons as well?  In (1Peter 1:12) at bottom of verse it says that "which things the angels desire to look into". The things that we know are not known by the angels, Devil, or demons.  I had a couple of dreams where I sensed a ghost or whatever it was and in my last dream I ask God to take it away and I haven't been bothered with it since.

CHB

[GodIsLove]

Yeah I guess when I say ignore, I mostly do mean ignore, but when the situations arise that you feel led to pray, pray to God and Jesus to remove the negative spirit, and trust God will do so.

I do that still, though I said I mostly ignore spiritual warfare. And ignoring the warfare is done while simultaneously setting our minds on the higher things, that part is important.  And resisting when necessary. I also often pray for God to remove evil and negativity in all forms from my life and my family's. That would include both earthly and spiritual evil.

I guess the idea of warfare implies evenly matched opponents, and constant struggle, and that part I take issue with the most. God will win, he has a plan, the closer we are to God the further we are from evil in all forms, darkness does not like the light.