Ninth chapter of Romans

[Lorenzo]

Hey guys I need a help with the ninth (?) chapter of the letter to Romans. Let me sum it up. Paul here states that the Almighty preordained some people to receive God's wrath in order to show to the elect His mercies. What? I thought that it might mean that, by first tormenting the wicked and then delivering them, He will show even a greater goodness. Yet the calvinist interpretation says that, by seeing the wicked's torments, the elect will thank God for having saved them. What do you think?


Thanks y'all guys you are very important to me!  :URWelcome:

[marie glen]

I think without God's intervention we all would perish. "The wages" (result) "of sin" (in the Greek originally used "missing the mark") "is death".. Romans 3'23. How is this related you say?

God, surely, is both life and perfection. When He endowed thinking ability, a whole new world (or tree) came to be, because with thinking ability comes the ability to make choices. So, the rescue (salvation) was built into creation from the beginning. (Imperfection being the opposite of life.) Not only is this life, God's allowing all choices form the beginning to run their course, but He is also proving good from evil (life from death) via this unavoidable journey and lesson, this drama called life.

Now any truth proving drama worth its salt needs more than one character. The elect and the not yet elect. If absolutely no one had to drink down the results and consequences of mankind's doings.. what would be proven? (And beyond all doubt, for all.)

Personally i don't believe salvation (reconciliation) will be any more stringent for the 2nd resurrection (not yet saved) than it is was, or is, for we who believe now.

Except for some really hard cases who by time the end of 'judgment' day (day of "decision") still will not "believe" thus have their names written in the Book of Life (note how that's the last line of the chapter). That's why the warning against the unable to be forgiven sin (while it is held) for to habitually harden one's heart against God to the point of hating Him and openly blaspheming God's Holy Presence, so much that every reach out by Him is totally rejected for some time.. habitually hardening the heart to a very hard stony state.

So, I think some  are allowed to run the whole course of the results of straying away from God, so it can be demonstrated and proven that wandering from God can only ever result in a puff of self destructive smoke and dust. Allowed to suffer the wrath, which I think is the results and consequences. The wrath at the very end.. which is fire, i believe to be man's own doings also.
    :Peace2: :smile:

[Lorenzo]

Hey, it sounds quite interesting! Good job  :gimmefive:!

[guest5685]

I like to call your attention to verse 21 as He of the SAME LUMP makes one to dishonor and another to honor. We were lumps of dishonor at one time then at another time changed into lumps of honor. I reckon they all get their turn at both even if the lump of honor comes after this natural lifetime. :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

that's the way I see it,too! we all have our sheep/goat parts that must be seperated by Him.

[GodIsLove]

He1...young's literal supports your assertion even more:

hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?

Note "the one" versus the plural used in other translations  :thumbsup:

[guest5685]

:iagree: Thanks for mentioning that translation. :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:

[Ross]

G'day;
9th chapter then flows through 10th and 11th to expand the point being made.

9;8 " This means it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise who are counted as descendants."

9;11,12 " Even before they were born or had done anything either good or bad, so that God's purpose might stand according to election, not because of works, but because of His call."

9;23,24  " And what if He did so in order to make known the riches of His glory for objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He has called out of the Jews and the Gentiles."

9;31,32 " But Israel, even though it pursued a law that would produce righteousness, did not attain it. Why not? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were works."

10;2-4 " For I bear witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For ignoring the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law, so now there is righteousness for all who believe."

11;6 " And if by grace it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise the grace would no longer be grace."

11;32 " For God has consigned ALL to disobedience so that He may show mercy to ALL."

This becomes a problem for many when the doctrine of hell comes into the equation.
Why? Because this would mean why bother when I am going to eternal condemnation!
Calvinists say hellfire for the damned. Which makes life meaningless, chasing after the wind.
The reality of being first fruit, or ecclesia, or elect, whatever you call that state of being, seems to only be that you are aware before others of the coming glorious kingdom. The others are in the same program, just not yet activated. This seems to be why the scriptures say each in his own turn.
True equality for mankind is In Christ. His works and grace set us free from failure. They also prevent us from boasting in anything except the Lord.

[rosered]

:thumbsup:   :goodpost:   :HeartThrob:


Do Not Judge Your Brother!!!!!!!!  As you judge so shall you BE JUDGED  falling from  grace/ Spirit of grace  ,,into the same    wanting / lack   and subject to worldly  temptations/basically death mode again /carnality   ...   beast mode  subject to the elements of the world  again


...8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. 10But you, why do you judge your brother?


Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt?


For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God....  None can boast and brag what he done  for God  it is what  God   has done for you in CHRIST work of the Cross !!

For Salvation to be a complete GRACE work of the Spirit!!!!!

[Eduard]

G'day;
9th chapter then flows through 10th and 11th to expand the point being made.

9;8 " This means it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise who are counted as descendants."

9;11,12 " Even before they were born or had done anything either good or bad, so that God's purpose might stand according to election, not because of works, but because of His call."

9;23,24  " And what if He did so in order to make known the riches of His glory for objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He has called out of the Jews and the Gentiles."

9;31,32 " But Israel, even though it pursued a law that would produce righteousness, did not attain it. Why not? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were works."

10;2-4 " For I bear witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For ignoring the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law, so now there is righteousness for all who believe."

11;6 " And if by grace it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise the grace would no longer be grace."

11;32 " For God has consigned ALL to disobedience so that He may show mercy to ALL."

This becomes a problem for many when the doctrine of hell comes into the equation.
Why? Because this would mean why bother when I am going to eternal condemnation!
Calvinists say hellfire for the damned. Which makes life meaningless, chasing after the wind.
The reality of being first fruit, or ecclesia, or elect, whatever you call that state of being, seems to only be that you are aware before others of the coming glorious kingdom. The others are in the same program, just not yet activated. This seems to be why the scriptures say each in his own turn.
True equality for mankind is In Christ. His works and grace set us free from failure. They also prevent us from boasting in anything except the Lord.

Excellent!!  :thumbsup: :iagree:

[sheila]

  wonderful truths.........IF I BE LIFTED UP...I SHALL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME.............

    crowns of pride/drunkards[of Babylons cup] will lift up themselves over their brothers.......many will come in my name...

[sheila]

Phillipians 2;3    Proverbs ch 8,9 fellow worker beside Him....Wisdom and her children.    I was especially fond of the sons of men

 

[Patinak]

G'day;
9th chapter then flows through 10th and 11th to expand the point being made.

9;8 " This means it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise who are counted as descendants."

9;11,12 " Even before they were born or had done anything either good or bad, so that God's purpose might stand according to election, not because of works, but because of His call."

9;23,24  " And what if He did so in order to make known the riches of His glory for objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He has called out of the Jews and the Gentiles."

9;31,32 " But Israel, even though it pursued a law that would produce righteousness, did not attain it. Why not? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were works."

10;2-4 " For I bear witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For ignoring the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law, so now there is righteousness for all who believe."

11;6 " And if by grace it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise the grace would no longer be grace."

11;32 " For God has consigned ALL to disobedience so that He may show mercy to ALL."

This becomes a problem for many when the doctrine of hell comes into the equation.
Why? Because this would mean why bother when I am going to eternal condemnation!
Calvinists say hellfire for the damned. Which makes life meaningless, chasing after the wind.
The reality of being first fruit, or ecclesia, or elect, whatever you call that state of being, seems to only be that you are aware before others of the coming glorious kingdom. The others are in the same program, just not yet activated. This seems to be why the scriptures say each in his own turn.
True equality for mankind is In Christ. His works and grace set us free from failure. They also prevent us from boasting in anything except the Lord.

Excellent!!  :thumbsup: :iagree:

Excellent!! :thumbsup: :iagree:

[guest5685]

 :iagree: Wow! This is a really good thread with lots of good posts.  I wish some of my friends and relatives after the flesh could read them. Really beautiful--I think I'm going think of you all as "THE LOVE GANG AT THE TENT". :HeartThrob: :dsunny: