Matthew 3:7-12

[staranthology]

7 And having seen many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming about his baptism, he said to them, `Brood of vipers! who did shew you to flee from the coming wrath?

8 bear, therefore, fruits worthy of the reformation,

9 and do not think to say in yourselves, A father we have -- Abraham, for I say to you, that God is able out of these stones to raise children to Abraham,

10 and now also, the axe unto the root of the trees is laid, every tree therefore not bearing good fruit is hewn down, and to fire is cast.

11 `I indeed do baptize you with water to reformation, but he who after me is coming is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to bear the sandals, he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire,

12 whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor, and will gather his wheat to the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.'

This suggests a devision, that not all of us will face the same fate or be 'saved'- What saved means in this context is debatable, but this passage makes me wonder whether God *will* actually save all- what are we to God? Why are there so many passages about dividing things up if we will all face the same fate?

[jabcat]

My understanding is, for reasons only known to God, there is a first fruits, the elect/ekklesia.  Those given faith to believe unto salvation now.  This is a remnant, a small portion of humanity.  Then the rest are called in next age(s), each in their own turn.  Whatever conditions set that are necessary to bring all eventually to bow and confess Jesus as Lord. 

[rosered]

Jesus   help  us   and  show us the way  truth and life .

  chaff and wheat   both from the same  plant ............

As nouns the difference between chaff and wheat. is that chaff is the inedible parts of a grain-producing plant while wheat is (countable) any of several cereal grains, of the genus triticum , that yields flour as used in bakery.

  it is the bad parts of us , used also in pruning  a tree  , removing the excess   that  takes away from the    holy  fruit bearing .

Paul says of himself  in   Roman  7   the evil is present   within him  and Jesus will deal with that with Holy Spirit and fire   the salting of correction
   every son received is scourged   Hebrews 12 God Disciplines His Children
4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
    and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
    and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."

7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

so many get ''confused '' by saying hardships is  of the devil
  but when you SEE THE LORD  is correcting you   and dealing with you as his own child ..............  you attitude changes in a moment ,, your ah ha !    twinkle of Light

  For me there is only GOD   in control  , and no other ,,,,,,,,,,

  :2c:

[Patinak]

I thought I would throw in my two cents on the Matthew verses.

I think Rose did a very good job of explaining the wheat/chaff part of this (thanks, Rose).

I think James is correct in differentiating the firstfruits from the rest.

Here is kind of how I read the Matthew 3 verses:

Context is that John is speaking to the Sadducees and Pharisees (v.7), he is telling them that Jesus was coming to usher in the new covenant, and to get on board (become one of the firstfruits of the reformation v.8), or be be left behind.

This is from somebody else, but he says it better than I could: "Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel in order that through his regathering and reconstituting the true Israel, the blessing of salvation would be released to flow from Israel and into all the world, just as God promised in the Old Testament."

I look at the "threatenings" in the N.T. (the ax to the root, the fig tree, gnashing of teeth, the outer darkness, etc...) as the judgements that would befall those Jews that would not join the new covenant movement.  Ultimately it resulted in their perishing (physical death), culminating with the destruction of the temple and those holding on to the old system, and the escape of the remnant to carry on the gospel which we now enjoy.

How I wish we had the letters and gospels in plain English without all of the baggage that translations carry with them!

Anyway, my opinions.  I try to put a context in to whatever I read in the Bible and try to make some sense.  Thankfully, I believe that Jesus is the savior of the whole world, so even if some things don't make sense, I still have that "Rock".

Pat

[rosered]

 :thumbsup:  beautifully said , Pat   !!

[marie glen]

It's too bad there's so many (other) teachings! lol. And without the translator's running with verses and words.. and choosing the most extreme usage of words (or just plainly adding to/running with! :doh: !!)

The axe at the root of the tree / nation.. But reading Daniel is a good example of the individual example! Because the king was said to be a tree cut down (to size! lol) but "the stump was left in the ground and when the king came to his senses and realized God is ruler, the stump would put out a shoot and regrow / his kingdom (or 'fortunes') would be restored".

I never thought the whole 'hell' or afterlife torment thing made any sort of logic.. so I decided to study on my own.. bought the big Strong's Concordances, and now of course is the apps, programs and web site programs like biblehub or esword which are even better, having verses in the interlinear with every word with a link to the original word used..

And I was never taught or learned to read it as metaphor which confuses everything.. because I think the idea is the metaphor of something cancels out or is more important than the literal God is doing.

Of course first off to notice is how there is no true "for ever and ever" except when it comes to God "who alone is immortal".

So/if God alone is immortal, how is it thousands/millions are languishing in 'hell' or an 'afterlife' holding place.. (Gen. 3:19)

"All in the graves will hear His voice and rise.. some to the resurrection of life" (at Jesus' return) "and some to the resurrection of judgment" (Jn.5:28) "For God knows how to preserve the un/not yet just for correction on 'day' of Judgment" 2 Peter 2:9. Like we are corrected now.

In this Mighty Truth Proving Drama - of letting imperfection exist and for the most part run its course - if it didn't need more than one type of character, I think all would be given the "gift of faith" now.. "today" - our day of Atonement/Reconciliation.

It all came into focus for me - like a Picasso painting becoming a beautiful, breath-taking landscape - about 20 years ago - I'd been a firm and happy believer previously, but when our son asked me 2 questions, I wasn't happy with my answers so I prayed for better ones..

His questions were - "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "isn't it great, we get to be an ant farm?"

The short answer I know now - we're not an ant farm. "gsmile" but this is how the answers came.. kind of like "bam!" two or three of them one after the other.

(Sometimes I think the churches think something 'went wong'.. took God by surprise, and now He has to rescue us.. But God "is perfect". Perfect makes no mistake(s) - and, can lose nothing! To lose one = not perfect.)

First thing, or bam, lol, was -- how when God endowed thinking ability, a WHOLE new world - or tree! - of possibilities 'came about' and God only able to be honest, there was that tree in the tiny garden of beginning.. Why is thinking and reasoning ability a Pandora's box of troubles? Because, sooner or later, is included the ability to make choices.

Then, was the idea (truth? imo) that God is Life itself. The source, force, spark and breath of life. And that He is also Perfect. And how it means as soon as someone chooses any tiny thing, in thought, word, or deed, that differs with what God our Father chooses, they become imperfect. The opposite of life! :faint: And so imperfection, suffering, death came about.

So.. the remedy was "built in (all things?) from the foundation/beginning" - "Christ Crucified from the foundation of the world" - the blueprint. ... "Lest all perish".

"HE subjected all to disobedience" so since HE did all this - by endowing thinking ability, how can we believe He will punish anyone? (Except for inner torment at repentance! And natural consequences, both individual and collective, because they teach good from evil, which we have to learn.)

Since He IS life, He experiences, suffers and lives through all sufferings that ever occur!

Why would He put Himself through all that?! ...Because He's not creating an ant farm? But His own family of many beautiful branches and an un-breakable paradise perfection..? Un-breakable because all will fully understand good from evil / life from death,nonlife. It being engraved upon every heart and mind - that He IS life. Any-other-way is tribulation, apocalypse, and death (neckros - "lacking Life") . A forever note to self? Go-Not-That-Way. It can never work but can only result in crashing and burning, as the saying goes, in a self destructing puff of smoke.

This is how these things came to mind during prayer. It all ended with a question (it seemed, to me) and it was - Why did God our Father wait so very long.. and only create the universe and man and woman, not only after the first bound to occur rebel thought occurred, but after it had matured into outright revolt and sedition/trickery? Didn't He know what would happen? (Lol, of course He did!) He is perfect, so surely(?!) has done each and every thing in just the way He has, in order to bring about the absolute best of all possible 'end' results.

So it seemed obvious to me right then, that He engineered things so all would take this unavoidable journey/lesson, all together at once. Lest one wander from God's way(s) now.. another later, and another later.. and so on, taking virtually 'for ever'. Unavoidable that is, if we are going to be thinking and reasoning beings.

I suppose it's just 2 truths (imo, that is) that He is life itself.. the spark of, etc. and that He is perfect. It's all natural law from that? (Supported by(?) "the wages/result of sin/"missing the mark" is death.") He's also taught me a lot since.. a lot of it built upon these things.. His 'bams!' :laughing7: I call them that because they knocked my socks off.. and they are still knocked off these many years later. :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :girlheart:

[marie glen]

:thumbsup:  beautifully said , Pat   !!

:iagree:

I think Rose did a very good job of explaining the wheat/chaff part of this (thanks, Rose).

I think James is correct in differentiating the firstfruits from the rest.

Amen!  :iagree: and, :iagree: lol..

[staranthology]

The axe at the root of the tree / nation.. But reading Daniel is a good example of the individual example! Because the king was said to be a tree cut down (to size! lol) but "the stump was left in the ground and when the king came to his senses and realized God is ruler, the stump would put out a shoot and regrow / his kingdom (or 'fortunes') would be restored".

This is really interesting because when reading about the wheat/chaff I took the plant to mean humanity as a whole body and the church as the wheat parts (kind of like how Jesus is the vine and we are the branches in John 15:5) but- as an alternate interpretation, it makes sense for each individual to be a plant, because wheat and chaff are joined together while on the plant but only the good parts are kept.

I am not convinced completely that it is so, yet. But the fact that multiple interpretations make sense is encouraging, and challenges my assumptions. Therefore, I am not saying that these passages are definite proof one way or the other, but to realise that things aren't as black and white as I'd assume makes me feel hopeful? Frightened? How am I supposed to know which one is right?

[staranthology]

Context is that John is speaking to the Sadducees and Pharisees (v.7), he is telling them that Jesus was coming to usher in the new covenant, and to get on board (become one of the firstfruits of the reformation v.8), or be be left behind.

This is from somebody else, but he says it better than I could: "Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel in order that through his regathering and reconstituting the true Israel, the blessing of salvation would be released to flow from Israel and into all the world, just as God promised in the Old Testament."

I look at the "threatenings" in the N.T. (the ax to the root, the fig tree, gnashing of teeth, the outer darkness, etc...) as the judgements that would befall those Jews that would not join the new covenant movement.  Ultimately it resulted in their perishing (physical death), culminating with the destruction of the temple and those holding on to the old system, and the escape of the remnant to carry on the gospel which we now enjoy.

This kinda raises a new issue: If it was God's will for all Israel to 'be saved' as it were, by joining the New Covanent, but obviously not all did that, what are the implications there?

[sheila]

imo that's dealt with by some in Israel being set aside/blinded[not coming in] until the gentiles

Romans11;25,Acts15;13-18

[rosered]

  I believe God is dealing with the world that He loves  and gave Jesus Christ for  as the perfect gift and offering   for all .
 

I believe salvation is of God though Jesus Christ and no one  can save themselves .

  totally  the  opposite of what   I used to think     after reading the  Word many times and prayed for the Wisdom from above  to teach  me His truth ....   we just have to die to the desires  of  carnal living  and thinking we are in control  of anything .

  the bible says  Jesus Teaches in parables  , so many cannot really understand , it does confuse  when we mix our ways with Gods ways  , always a  corrupted outcome .

  Jesus chose 12  , that is a foundational  number to build on these  Israelites , one was chosen to betray Christ  so the scriptures would be fulfilled , poor Judas  who would want to be chosen for that position ?  but he was  so everything will work 
  according to Gods plan 
  notice I am the bread  of heaven [ Jesus Christ  is ]    but the wheat gathered in the barn is from the  gleaning of the harvest of souls   , yes it is parable like , but clearly   wheat is    from the white heads  of the matured  harvest  [pray to the Lord of   harvest  for more workers in the field   Matt 9   or that  GOD GIVE THE INCREASE ]  , this grain is for making the    bread   eat my body and drink my blood that you might be filled  , the grapes  that are crushed  are the same blood and new wine   ,  Jesus is referring to  in my own thoughts about it   and nothing is lost  or wasted   when they gather together  in CHRIST JESUS   ,  but is of His own use  and discretion

  John 6
The Feeding of the Five Thousand
...11Then Jesus took the loaves and the fish, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. 12And when everyone was full, He said to His disciples, "Gather the pieces that are left over, so that nothing will be wasted." [LOST] 13So they collected them and filled twelve baskets with the pieces of the five barley loaves left over by those who had eaten....

we are consumers  we are what we eat  ,   or not eat  as  famine can cause even the hungry to  eat /consume  foods sacrificed unto idols

   sadly  :sigh:

  to me,    prayer to God is key   ,  ask Him  and to do it in private  and  sincerely  and never forget to thank Him when He shows you  somthing wonderful .

  God bless

[marie glen]

Paul said Israel fell away so the gospel would be preached to the (other) nations.. I think He has His set ways.. is letting imperfection exist and in most part, run its course.. in order to prove good from evil and convince the world concerning sin/"missing the mark".

So much runs along inside that framework.. So Israel falling away.. works best for taking the good news to the nations.

Paul also wrote "if Israel"s falling away is salvation to the nations, what will be their being gathered back, but life from the dead?"

Meaning, I think, resurrection (which, of believers, occurs at Jesus' return). "The rest of the dead live not again until after the thousand years". Verses like that make me think He is very organized. Everything "pegged" into place.

I have to read more of this article - http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d050101.htm

which talks about :

The apostle Paul said, however, through the Holy Spirit, that the ekklesia of God, the assembly of people, the holy ones back at his time (and we could extend it up to our time today), that the knowledge of this sacred secret has now been brought to light through the knowledge of Christ and that the “plan of the ages” which He made in Christ Jesus, our Lord, before the foundation of the world, can now be made manifest.

That is why it is important for all of us to know what that plan of the ages happens to be. It involves salvation. It involves the salvation of all people on earth, all human beings. But people on earth will gain salvation in time periods which God Himself has designed. Not everyone, as we all know, accepts Jesus Christ at the present time. The vast majority in the world does not — nor have they ever done so

[sheila]

Romans11;25-32........God's GIFTS AND HIS CALL ARE IRREVOCABLE.........

Judah delivered first Zechariah12;7TheLord will save the dwellings of Judah first..so that the honour of the house of David and

of Jerusalem's  inhabitants may not be greater. First=firstfruits Judah symbolizing Jesus Christ.

   Saviourof ALL men..specially those whobelieve[in Christ/newcovenant..or have/put faith in God/Jesus on this side of the Jordan.

  ALL men the Israel[nation born in a day]of God.

   Ezekiel47;23[gentiles/nations coming in]you are to allot it as an inheritance unto yourselves and for the aliens[gentiles/nations]

who have settled among you. You are toconsider them as native born Israelites.In whatever tribe the alien settles's.

   Thus 'places prepared" and those not keeping their proper dwelling places[I called but you did NOT answer]Paul grieving for those

inIsrael..for to whom the promised seed/inheritance belonged etc.

[marie glen]

I have to read more of this article - http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d050101.htm

which talks about :

The apostle Paul said, however, through the Holy Spirit, that the ekklesia of God, the assembly of people, the holy ones back at his time (and we could extend it up to our time today), that the knowledge of this sacred secret has now been brought to light through the knowledge of Christ and that the "plan of the ages" which He made in Christ Jesus, our Lord, before the foundation of the world, can now be made manifest.

That is why it is important for all of us to know what that plan of the ages happens to be. It involves salvation. It involves the salvation of all people on earth, all human beings. But people on earth will gain salvation in time periods which God Himself has designed. Not everyone, as we all know, accepts Jesus Christ at the present time. The vast majority in the world does not — nor have they ever done so

A good article, but oh my, they have some timing off, especially at the end where is listed the Great White Throne judgment ("the judgment") as after the "all in all"/all things made new event.. That can't work.

Plus they've zeroed in on the judgment/GWT judgment lasting 1000 years, so I know they've not considered the pattern of the (ancient Hebrew) Fall Holy Days as a shadow and type of the 3 peaks of Jesus's long second advent. [Lev.23]

Good at pointing out the ages though.. The way, or another way (?) to count the coming ages - besides the pattern of the Fall Holy Days (FHD,lol) is in a 3.5 pattern.. after Christ (the years of our Lord, A.D. beginning as the white horse and rider/the gospel riding forth into the age, Rev.6) -- after Jesus' first advent, 2000 years ---> to His return - "after two days He returns" (Hosea?) then, of course is "the thousand years"/the millennium, which brings us to 3000 years.

Now, true to the pattern of the Fall Holy Days representing the 3 peaks of His long second advent -- like this :

"Trumpets" of Revelation & His return at the last one
           -- 10 days to Day of Atonement / 1000 years to 'Day' of Judgment -- "The 1000 years" between = the millennium
Day of Atonement - historically, a collective day of repenting and reconciliation = Day of Judgment/GWTJ
          ---- 5 days to Tabernacles, showing / typifying the duration of the GWTJ - if 10 days = 1000 yrs; 5 days = ?

2000
1000
  500
--------
3500 = a 3.5 duration

Though the article's "8 days" is interesting.. :Chinscratch:

..maybe the "all in all"/"making all things new" event is involved.. seven days of "Tabernacles" -- "God will now tabernacle with mankind upon Earth made new" Rev.21:1-5. Which day of Tabernacles is high Sabbath? Day of Atonement is a very high Sabbath (of "no work" - Lev.23:25-27 - whosoever does not afflict their soul on that day will be cut off from the ppl" - of course we know that will not happen. It ALWAYS reminds me of the verse "anyone whose name is not in the book of life will go to lake/pond of fire" (anyone not believing/still not believing.. but we know none shall ultimately 'not believe') and He makes all things new.. a new heavens and a new Earth, the elements melting with a furious heat. 2 Peter 3:11-13 [10-11 being at Jesus' return amidst fiery Armageddon?] The verses/events acting like bookends of the entire long 2nd advent?

[marie glen]

Romans11;25-32........God's GIFTS AND HIS CALL ARE IRREVOCABLE.........

Judah delivered first Zechariah12;7TheLord will save the dwellings of Judah first..so that the honour of the house of David and

of Jerusalem's  inhabitants may not be greater. First=firstfruits Judah symbolizing Jesus Christ.

   Saviourof ALL men..specially those whobelieve[in Christ/newcovenant..or have/put faith in God/Jesus on this side of the Jordan.

  ALL men the Israel[nation born in a day]of God.

   Ezekiel47;23[gentiles/nations coming in]you are to allot it as an inheritance unto yourselves and for the aliens[gentiles/nations]

who have settled among you. You are toconsider them as native born Israelites.In whatever tribe the alien settles's.

   Thus 'places prepared" and those not keeping their proper dwelling places[I called but you did NOT answer]Paul grieving for those

inIsrael..for to whom the promised seed/inheritance belonged etc.

Amen.. our Day of Atonement is "today"..

Jesus died for ALL - all, every, the whole

"The rest of the dead rise not until after the thousand years" - believers rose at His return. After the millennium, the rest rise.

"God knows how to preserve the un/not yet just for CORRECTION on Day of Judgment" - their Day of Atonement (and of being corrected/salted with fire and HS, like ours is "today").

Atonement for ALL.  :banana: All Israel.. all grafted into Israel.. made joint heirs with Christ.. His plan/administration of ages having written His law on every heart, sealed heart and mind unto our Father who made us. (Is making us now.)

:girlheart:

[marie glen]

Ever wonder why not save all now? (During this life.)

[sheila]

..because certain'places' are  prepared before-hand.

Mark 10;40

[staranthology]

Day of Atonement is a very high Sabbath (of "no work" - Lev.23:25-27 - whosoever does not afflict their soul on that day will be cut off from the ppl" - of course we know that will not happen. It ALWAYS reminds me of the verse "anyone whose name is not in the book of life will go to lake/pond of fire" (anyone not believing/still not believing.. but we know none shall ultimately 'not believe') and He makes all things new.. a new heavens and a new Earth, the elements melting with a furious heat. 2 Peter 3:11-13 [10-11 being at Jesus' return amidst fiery Armageddon?] The verses/events acting like bookends of the entire long 2nd advent?

I'd be careful with saying stuff like "of course we know that will not happen." If it's in the Bible, it's in there for a reason, and its presence there should be more important than whether it coheres well with our personal theologies.

[jabcat]

I believe punishments and consequences in the OT were temporal, and many just earthly (of that age/life).  Jesus went and preached to those disobedient and led them out of captivity. 

[staranthology]

I believe punishments and consequences in the OT were temporal, and many just earthly (of that age/life).  Jesus went and preached to those disobedient and led them out of captivity.

I'm not quite sure what this is in response to

[jabcat]

  whosoever does not afflict their soul on that day will be cut off from the ppl"

If it's in the Bible, it's in there for a reason,

I believe punishments and consequences in the OT were temporal, and many just earthly (of that age/life).  Jesus went and preached to those disobedient and led them out of captivity.

I'm not quite sure what this is in response to

I believe it happens, but not "forever"

[staranthology]

  whosoever does not afflict their soul on that day will be cut off from the ppl"

If it's in the Bible, it's in there for a reason,

I believe punishments and consequences in the OT were temporal, and many just earthly (of that age/life).  Jesus went and preached to those disobedient and led them out of captivity.

I'm not quite sure what this is in response to

I believe it happens, but not "forever"

Ah, no, this wasn't a response to that- it was just me expressing concern that saying things like "Lev.23:25-27 - whosoever does not afflict their soul on that day will be cut off from the ppl" - of course we know that will not happen." is a dangerous precedent to set- we can't of course know that things in the Bible will not happen-

That's not to say that Lev 23 and Rev with the LOF *mean* ET is true or that the cutting off/lake of fire lasts forever (Or even that the verse in Leviticus refers to life after death at all. I don't think it does.) I'm just saying that we ought to be more cautious before dismissing things as spurious.

[jabcat]

I know :)

I was just trying to address punishments, redemption, etc.

Carry on :)

[marie glen]

Day of Atonement is a very high Sabbath (of "no work" - Lev.23:25-27 - whosoever does not afflict their soul on that day will be cut off from the ppl" - of course we know that will not happen. It ALWAYS reminds me of the verse "anyone whose name is not in the book of life will go to lake/pond of fire" (anyone not believing/still not believing.. but we know none shall ultimately 'not believe') and He makes all things new.. a new heavens and a new Earth, the elements melting with a furious heat. 2 Peter 3:11-13 [10-11 being at Jesus' return amidst fiery Armageddon?] The verses/events acting like bookends of the entire long 2nd advent?

I'd be careful with saying stuff like "of course we know that will not happen." If it's in the Bible, it's in there for a reason, and its presence there should be more important than whether it coheres well with our personal theologies.

hi! You're very right of course, but what I meant is we know God will not lose anyone.. I figure we know that because of the many verses.. but the ones I always think of right away is how Jesus said He will draw all to Himself (Jn.12:32) and Ps.22:27 says "all" will turn to the LORD, and all families of the nations will worship before Him. (And the longer we keep reading the scripture/bible, the more certain we become.

I didn't mean to imply I think none will go to lake of fire - I used to believe that (the 2 in Rev.19 being, I believe, institutions of man active at the time of Jesus' return, thus there they go, because I now believe - and no I'm not crazy, nor a new believer - I now believe lake of fire to be the splitting of the atom(s) chain reaction that makes a ball of fire.. with its great inward and upward draft, drawing everything swiftly into it. Should I even mention what verses most make me think this? I'm rather compulsive about it..  :laughing7: who knows if anyone reads.. But! I'm not the ONLY person to believe it.. I have the link to someone saying it very well! Comparing verses with the science..

I now think of 2 Peter 3:10-13 as serving as bookends! Actually, verse 10 itself. Bookends of the Lord's long second advent.. And I'm quite excited about it. You know how the Lord builds on things (truth/s He guides us into).

2 Peter 3 - 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night" --- being "thief in the night" always His return - Rev.16:14,15,16 - first bookend --- "in which (same 'day'/age(s) of His 2nd advent) the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat" -- the 2nd bookend when God makes all things new -- "both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. --- the "all in all" event of "all things made new" (Rev.21:1-5).

This is where the mentions of lake of fire are in Rev. - at Jesus' return amidst fiery Armageddon; at the adversary's fiery final defeat in Rev.20; and at the very 'end' after "the judgment" when the elements melt with a furious heat.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which, the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

I used to think "no humans in LOF" because I figure(d) if I rose "still in my sins" [Jesus said, "all in the tombs (graves) will hear His voice and rise.. some to the resurrection of life, and some to the resurrection of judgment" (Jn.5:28) ..."God knows how to preserve the un/not yet just for correction on day of judgment" (2 Pet.2:9)

If I rose still in my sins, thus kind of DOA (dead on arrival) - initially! --- and after witnessing what likely is a rather LONG 'day' of the review of all man's history - in order to judge/discern.. I mean why would such a wise Father miss such a SUPER teaching opportunity and time!? Even if we didn't have 2 Pet.2:9.

So after all that - rising and witnessing 'day' of judgment (GWTJ) ..who's not going to "believe"? And thus be enrolled in the book of life?

I think of our Day Of Atonement as "today", and theirs as occurring at "the judgment" which follows the millennium/the thousand years (Rev.20)

I could write more on this.. but I feel like I've already gone on kind of long.. :doh:

[marie glen]

  whosoever does not afflict their soul on that day will be cut off from the ppl"

If it's in the Bible, it's in there for a reason,

:Chinscratch: I think of it as "if" someone does not afflict their soul on that day

Like "if" there would be someone who never, ever repents, they would perish. Also, it's a double thing.. the ancient, annual, collective Day Of Atonement as a type and shadow (example) of the 'real' (everlasting) thing.. So it applied to Israel's annual DOA also..

I'm not quite sure what this is in response to

I believe it happens, but not "forever"

:Chinscratch: Me too.. At the judgment.. I think there will be lots of weeping and gnashing of teeth of all different degrees.. Plus outer darkness, which I take to be the cutting off from the people.. sort of like the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, tho I think the parable was poking fun of the Pharasees..

When it first came to mind, a few years back, an 'image' (so to speak) of a great day/age of judgment/learning, it was a great crowd of people kind of coming forth, of all the ages of history, dressed in the dress of their culture.. Egyptians, Romans, Greeks, Hebrew.. Indian, Asian.. That's how I feel the HS first presented it.. and I feel as though He has been steadily building upon it.. via the scripture.

The pattern of His long 2nd advent w/ 3 main peaks, His return; the judgment; the all in all event after which God will tabernacle w/ mankind upon Earth made new -- typified by the 3 Fall Holy Days of Lev.23 (the originals - Trumpets; DOA; Tabernacles).
:Peace2: :girlheart:

..can anyone see it? day of judgment/GWTJ is Day Of Atonement.. of repentance, of reconciliation.. of being salted with fire/corrected..

proving, when seen -UR/CU. (imo)