John 3:16

[ed]

John 3:16 is one of the most popular texts in the Bible. It uses the words eternal life and the word perish in apposition.

Death is also used in the Bible as well as the wicked being burned to ashes.

So much for your theory.

I'm talking to a SDA sectarian who has started a thread called "The Bible, God's love letter to us".  His position is from the annihilation perspective.

I'm looking for the translation that is from the universalist perspective.  I remember an on-line translation but can't find it.

Some perspective on ashes whould be nice too.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It seems to me that the verse is say that whoever believes will not be in a state of perishing but have the life.  Fits with Paul's perspective:

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

I've always used Romans 8:6 as a "Checkup from the neck up" verse.

Thanks,
Ed

[ed]

Here is what I have so far.

John 3:16 is one of the most popular texts in the Bible.  It uses the words eternal life and the word perish in apposition.

Death is also used in the Bible as well as the wicked being burned to ashes.

So much for your theory.

:angel:

Lets look at John 3:16 in context and see if your annihilation theory holds water biblically.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

God's intent is that the world be saved.  Saved is the Greek word for healed.  There is healing in Christ.  Christ is the healing.  Christ is the life bringer.  Man in his perishing state is need of the healer.  The believer appropriats the salvation that Christ intended.  Daily there is healing in Christ.

Paul's doctrine on life and death are seen in Romans 8:6
The carnal mind is a state of perishing as noted in John 3:16.  John 3:16 is not talking about a future state of judgment.  John 3:16 is talking about the life that Christ brings and the state of death without Christ.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.






http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/whosoever.htm

[micah7:9]

John 3:16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian.(CLT)

[Seth]

I used to believe in annihilationism and I think they take it from the word "perish". The word is translated from apollumi which means to be "lost". In fact it's the same word Jesus uses in the parable of the LOST sheep. So what's really interesting is when you look at VERSE 19. He talks about wicked works and men loving the darkness.... All a long way of saying I think you have the right interpretation with your Romans reference, Ed.

[micah7:9]

I never believed in "annihilationism" cause I never found any substance in the Bible to build on. Sorry, but I'm a slow learner. Where do people get this this stuff when Love is the very substance of His Creation? People who don't  read the Bible but listen to all the spew, must consider The Lord an ogre. :sigh:

[ed]

John 3:16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian.(CLT)

Do you have an on line source for the CLT version?

Thanks,

[micah7:9]

Just went searching for a Concordant version. Used to have it through e-sword.

[Lazarus Short]

As an ex-SDA, I will say that the idea of the Bible being God's love letter to us is a fine idea, but if the wicked perish eternally, it puts a blot on that Love. 

You just cannot have your theology turn on ONE verse, and ignore the related verses around it, or the general context of the Bible as a whole.  I call it Buffet Theology, where you take, so to speak, the lime jello salad, and tell your table-mates:  This is what is at the buffet. 

Neither should you take Ellen White's word for it.

Keep in mind that the SDA church officially rejected the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith.

[bushy]

Keep in mind that the SDA church officially rejected the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith.

Then what is their official doctrine of salvation? By works? I know several SDA people and I thought they were pretty similar to other christian denominations on this, but haven't gotten into it with them.

[Lazarus Short]

Keep in mind that the SDA church officially rejected the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith.

Then what is their official doctrine of salvation? By works? I know several SDA people and I thought they were pretty similar to other christian denominations on this, but haven't gotten into it with them.

It's a bit of a rabbit hole - they like to appear as a mainstream denomination, but once you get inside, you find that (according to them) salvation is largely based on obedience to the Law, the prophets, and of course, to the teachings of Sister White.  That may be somewhat old-school, and I have talked with some present-day SDA members who have told me that a lot of Adventists hardly know who Ellen White is.  I  :dunno2: but it may be like a Mormon who has never heard of Joseph Smith, or a reformed Mormon who has never heard of Brigham Young.  The RLDS church has renamed itself, BTW, as has the Armstrong organization, and it seems fashionable to "look like" your organization is evangelical.  With the RLDS passing as the "Community of Christ," and other churches doing the same sort of thing, it just makes finding out the theological/theoillogical truth a more difficult thing to do.  We live in an age of deception, and it was better in the old days, when men like Herbert W. Armstrong preached the truth as they knew it, and did not mince words.

The publication of "The Clear Word" bible version by the Adventists, which was translated to support Adventist theology, clinches my opinion that the SDA organization is a cult, though they've backpedaled (more deception) and stated that it is not, after all, official.  It puts the cart before the horse, as theology should follow translation, not the other way around.  My (perhaps not so) humble opinion...

[bushy]

Thanks for that Laz, I think because I know some good SDA people I assume that their church teaching is about the same as all the others except for going to church on Saturday. Of course your opinion of them might be slanted because of being burned by something . :bigGrin: How I've felt plenty from going to church.

I think they aren't the only ones with a translation being done to fit their understanding of  theology, as in KJV and most others which have obvious mistranslations like hell for hades and Gehenna and others.

[Lazarus Short]

Thanks for that Laz, I think because I know some good SDA people I assume that their church teaching is about the same as all the others except for going to church on Saturday. Of course your opinion of them might be slanted because of being burned by something . :bigGrin: How I've felt plenty from going to church.

I think they aren't the only ones with a translation being done to fit their understanding of  theology, as in KJV and most others which have obvious mistranslations like hell for hades and Gehenna and others.

I suppose I will be subject to possible accusations of "sour grapes" for the rest of my days...

Bad theology leads to bad translation, and then bad translation leads to bad theology.  It a vicious, very vicious circle.  :footmouth: :doh: :footmouth: :sigh:

[anna274]

will good translation lead to good theology????? 

[WhiteWings]

will good translation lead to good theology?????

Imo, it will certainly increase the odds.

[anna274]

will good translation lead to good theology?????

Imo, it will certainly increase the odds.

odds!!???!!!

Why gamble with anything as important as learning the truth/understanding the Scriptures.  My great joy is that Jesus promised to send the Comforter to lead/to guide us into all truth.

[marie glen]

John 3:16 is one of the most popular texts in the Bible. It uses the words eternal life and the word perish in apposition.

Death is also used in the Bible as well as the wicked being burned to ashes.

So much for your theory.

I'm talking to a SDA sectarian who has started a thread called "The Bible, God's love letter to us".  His position is from the annihilation perspective.

I'm looking for the translation that is from the universalist perspective.  I remember an on-line translation but can't find it.

Some perspective on ashes whould be nice too.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It seems to me that the verse is say that whoever believes will not be in a state of perishing but have the life.  Fits with Paul's perspective:

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

I've always used Romans 8:6 as a "Checkup from the neck up" verse.

Thanks,
Ed

Absolutely! To be carnally minded is death/nonlife, whereas, imo God is life itself, the life force and also perfection (but endowed thinking ability which includes choice; and to choose anything other than God chooses in any tiny way is to become imperfect) and imperfection is the opposite of life.. hence the rescue needed.

Ancient Israel understood that fiery judgment was upon earth and in this lifetime.. and they occurred.. For example, the carrying away to Assyria and Babylon. The razing of Jerusalem in 70 A.d.

And there shall be "Armageddon" when the sheep are separated from the goats, the armies of the nations gathered around Jerusalem and Jesus returns with angels (sending them out to gather His elect) and with fire taking vengeance upon those who believe not (imo, the fire being the results of man's own doings, the consequences of man's own doings, including splitting the atom/surely?) -- fiery 'judgment/results/consequences. [The two reapings/harvests of Rev chapter 14]

And yes, some will perish and be ashes.. but then there is the 2nd resurrection (why? :Chinscratch: )

And either those not believing will go to the 2nd death made for the devil and his angels [the LOF where death and the grave will be thrown at the end of the long(?) judgment day/DOA] for an "agelasting" time, undergoing purification, repentence, etc..

oR, the 1st advent of Jesus having fulfilled ancient Israels's Spring Holy Days....

      .....In the same manner, His long(!) 2nd advent will fulfill the ancient Fall Holy Days of --- Trumpets - 10 days later --- Day Of Atonement - 5 days later --- Tabernacles (when God will "tabernacle" with man on an earth made new in a universe made new..) 

Making Day Of Judgment to be Day Of Atonement (DOA) lasting 500 years (as the millenium lasts 1000 years, represented by the 10 days between Trumpets and DOA.. At the end of DOJ(udgment)/DOA(tonement) is said "those not believing will go to the 2nd death" - how many after being resurrected and witnessing the intense review of all things.. how many will "not believe"? {Intense review will complete the "writing of God's Law on our hearts.. the unavoidable foundation lesson, the full understanding of good from evil / life from death,nonlife being deeply engraved upon every heart, mind and psyche will make paradise un-breakable and now able to spread thru-out the universe? All knowing, that to wander from God/Life/Perfection can only ever end in a self destructive puff of smoke (apocalypse) and dust and ashes, the dust of which shall rise up forever and ever (i.e. will never be forgotten, the unveiling of all truth from error/untruth which is also good from evil and life from nonlife.)

I believe all perishing and becoming ashes, etc, is of course before resurrection. Peace! and God bless :))

[bushy]

will good translation lead to good theology?????

Imo, it will certainly increase the odds.

odds!!???!!!

Why gamble with anything as important as learning the truth/understanding the Scriptures.  My great joy is that Jesus promised to send the Comforter to lead/to guide us into all truth.

Hi Anna, I guess you don't like the word 'odds'. I know you love the scriptures and know them well. A beginner starts out with a lot of confusion, at least I did. How about saying a bad translation leads to bad theology. Then it will take even longer to understand and know the truth which sets us free.

[anna274]

will good translation lead to good theology?????

Imo, it will certainly increase the odds.

odds!!???!!!

Why gamble with anything as important as learning the truth/understanding the Scriptures.  My great joy is that Jesus promised to send the Comforter to lead/to guide us into all truth.

Hi Anna, I guess you don't like the word 'odds'. I know you love the scriptures and know them well. A beginner starts out with a lot of confusion, at least I did. How about saying a bad translation leads to bad theology. Then it will take even longer to understand and know the truth which sets us free.

Hi Bushy...thanks for your very lovely response and question (How about..)

My problem is not with the word "odds"... rather that the holy Spirit is not dependent on the translation.   "good' or "bad" are relative terms...  who decides which translations are good or bad...

The Holy Spirit alone can guide us into all truth and lead us into understanding the Scriptures.

BTW the Holy Spirit directed me to check the meaning of the word "hell" in my huge unabridged dictionary.... I learned--> hell from the Anglicized hele (dark, covered hole) sounds like the grave, Sheol 

Let us continue to pray for all that we continue to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ...Savior of ALL men.  To Him be all glory now and forever.

[Seth]

Hi Anna,
It seems to me that God is partly using the translations to reveal and to hide his truths, because those mistranslations occurred due to a carnal understanding of Christ's very spiritual words. Those words were spoken to reveal truth to some and hide from others. To me it seems all part and parcel of the Holy Spirit leading to truth is to reveal the mistranslations. I actually think a good translation would make it easier to talk about the Gospel without having to clear the hurtles but since the mistranslations are a result of lower-realm thinking, I think bad theology would persist anyway. At least it would be easier to talk about the problematic interpretations without the pesky mistranslations to clear up. In any case, it's all of God....