Three men check into a hotel.
They pay 30 dollars for the room.
Each man pays 10 dollars each.
After a while the clerk realizes a mistake.
He calls the bellboy and says the room is only 25 dollars.
He gives the bellboy 5 dollars to take back to the men.
On the way there, the bellboys wonders how to divide 5 dollars among 3 men.
He pockets 2 dollars, and gives each of the men 1 dollar.
Originally the men paid 10 dollars each for the room.
Each got back 1 dollar.
Now they have paid 9 dollars each for the room.
9 x 3 = 27.
Bellboy pocketed 2 dollars.
27 + 2 = 29 dollars.
Where is the missing dollar?
Every number was true.
How I told the story led you to believe there was a contradiction.
Here is the reality.
They paid 25 dollars for the room.
The men got 3 dollars.
The bellboy pocketed 2 dollars.
25 + 3 + 2 = 30 dollars.
Both sides can use the same scriptures, but depending on how one tells the story, one can come off telling a completely different and contradictory story from the true one.
Please share what examples you might have heard or read where the scriptures were told in such a way as to do this.
Ronen
Ok, here is one.
1Co 15:22
Just as all in Adam die, so also all in Christ will be made alive.
This is how you typically hear this explained by those who do not believe in universal reconciliation.
The implication is that all humanity is in Adam and thus die, yet not all are in Christ, only a few (the elect), and those are the only ones that he makes alive.
Here is what is really says...see how reading it slightly different makes a difference in what it communicates:
Just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
The first rendering is changed slightly to make 'in Adam' and 'in Christ' location statements...i.e.,
located in Adam, located in Christ.
Just as all located in Adam die, so also all located in Christ will be made alive.
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The actual rendering however communicates 'in Adam' and 'in Christ' as source statements...i.e.,
by means of Adam, by means of Christ.
Just as by means of Adam all die, so also by means of Christ, all will be made alive.
Ronen
The math in the first calculation is flawed.
So is every contradicting Bible interpretation.
QuoteBoth sides can use the same scriptures, but depending on how one tells the story, one can come off telling a completely different and contradictory story from the true one.
Change use into abuse and you got your answer.
I see Biblical interpretation more like someone that doesn't understand math. They state 3x3=6. Then at another place in the Bible they start using that knowledge to proof something. And guess what, their proof is airtight if 3x3 really is 6 instead of 9.
And that's the the main problem with doctrines they got the basic math wrong, That flawed math is the basis of each and every doctrine.
Of course the Bible doesn't use math but it's about wrong understanding of words. Hell/purifying, eternal/age, punishment/correction, etc.
QuotePlease share what examples you might have heard or read where the scriptures were told in such a way as to do this.
So to answer your question: There aren't such examples. The flaw isn't in the interpretation/doctrine but the very foundation of it. Meaning of words. Most Bible scholars don't even understand pre-school math....
:2c:
Quote from: gregoryfl on October 10, 2014, 05:21:16 PM
Ok, here is one.
1Co 15:22
Just as all in Adam die, so also all in Christ will be made alive.
This is how you typically hear this explained by those who do not believe in universal reconciliation.
The implication is that all humanity is in Adam and thus die, yet not all are in Christ, only a few (the elect), and those are the only ones that he makes alive.
Here is what is really says...see how reading it slightly different makes a difference in what it communicates:
Just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
The first rendering is changed slightly to make 'in Adam' and 'in Christ' location statements...i.e.,
located in Adam, located in Christ.
Just as all located in Adam die, so also all located in Christ will be made alive.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The actual rendering however communicates 'in Adam' and 'in Christ' as source statements...i.e.,
by means of Adam, by means of Christ.
Just as by means of Adam all die, so also by means of Christ, all will be made alive.
Ronen
Good example and it kinda supports my math example.
First of all they don't seem to have a clue about who the elect are, what their function is and if the elect is the only group that's gonna be changed. I'm not going to take your thread off-topic so I will only say a wedding party also has many guests. That can be equaled to not understanding the concept of math.
The different rendering I already explained in my previous post.
Interesting posts, thank you both!
In this regard, I see scriptural truth like a building. The ET doctrine is a foundation that has caused the rest of the building to be constructed incorrectly. To give one example, the hyper-focus on 'saving everyone before they slip off to a Christless eternity', has led to everyone being encouraged to be an evangelist, and people often tormented with guilt if they have not witnessed enough. Yet the scriptures say He gave some to be evangelists, not all.
Another erroneous stack of bricks that sits on this foundation is how winning one's ticket to heaven leaves believers with little other vision or focus. If the race is already run and the prize (salvation) won, what is left to do but polish one's spiritual resume as one sees fit? There is no vision of Jesus Christ being formed in us, the great mystery of the ages. This can also lead to sloppy lives, as believers are soft on their own continued flaws with the disclaimer "I am not perfect, only saved", while condemning others to hell for the same flaws.
Finally, and perhaps worst of all, it is nigh on impossible to love people unconditionally if one does not believe the Father loves them in this way, and this leads to a very sad state of affairs, as believers talk out of both sides of their mouth when it comes to love. Does God love us? Or is He angry with us? Who knows, as it changes by the minute!
One of the many blessings of seeing the reality of Christ's complete, utter, and transcendently universal triumph is that it brings everything into a sweet harmony, and the scriptures agree with one other amicably.
:iagree:
Amen