Hebrews 5:9

[rick]

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[eaglesway]

Phil 2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

John 12:30 "This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

[jabcat]

hi rick.  i suppose a basic direct response would be about aion's (specifically, aioniou here) accurate translation.  Young's renders it age-during (of an age or to the age)..all prior to God becoming all in all as eaglesway mentioned above.

[Psalm91:4]

This reminds me of when he came to his own and they did not receive him, but those who received him were given the right to become the sons of God.  Having that relationship even now, in this present evil  "age."
  ~Experiencing all that it means to be God's child....his salvation, deliverence, chastisement and such things.

And even though it is true that Lord is working in this way even now with his firstborn kids, does not necessarily or even probably exclude his future dealings with the rest of the entire world for whom he also died, in the ages yet to come.

This is one reason I love him so...  because he loves the whole world and accomplished all necessary to bring home all, right down to the very last lost sheep.
Btw....hi rick...I too just joined.  :)

[rick]

hi rick.  i suppose a basic direct response would be about aion's (specifically, aioniou here) accurate translation.  Young's renders it age-during (of an age or to the age)..all prior to God becoming all in all as eaglesway mentioned above.

Youngs is the only one I have seen not say eternal. I can literally list 20 other translations that translate it to be eternal. If your appeal is to authority then you must recognize that all other translators have translated the word to mean eternal.  Strongs defines it as eternal, unending (166. aiónios). BTW, eaglesway has not refuted that the scripture says you must obey Christ for eternal life. While Christ will draw all men there are many scriptures that show people refusing to come to Christ and rejecting the Holy Spirit. Christ says in Mathew 25:46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal... So are you (and eaglesway) implying that we will not enter eternal life or eternal death? So we will only be in heaven or hell for a little while? Strongs 166. aiónios is used in both places.

Don't be led away by your own desires. Christianity is a cross we are required to pick up and carry everyday

[jabcat]

Youngs is the only one I have seen not say eternal. I can literally list 20 other translations that translate it to be eternal. If your appeal is to authority then you must recognize that all other translators have translated the word to mean eternal.  Strongs defines it as eternal, unending (166. aiónios).

There are others if one looks hard enough for accurate translation.  But you're right, most of the translators were influenced by Roman and dark ages teaching, so they see it and translate it through that lens.


BTW, eaglesway has not refuted that the scripture says you must obey Christ for eternal life.

Eaglesway of course can speak to it, but I know him, and neither of us disbelieve we must obey Christ.  However, obeying Christ means initially believing on Him and trusting Him for salvation, His work on the cross, given to each as He draws and gives faith to belief.  Then yes, an obedient child follows from there.  I personallly don't beieve dogma saves us.  I believe it's the work of Jesus on the cross and His gift of faith and grace.  If you believe in eternal torment or eternal death, please don't feel pressured or put upon or off by me.  I'm not a hard-nose and don't believe in arguing.  I'm sharing with you where I believe God has me right now.  If you don't agree or like it, maybe we can share some, pray about it, and move on to other things.  I believe God works all things according to the counsel of His will, and will give us (all who are born again and closely following Him [living in the Kingdom]) understanding as He works in each of us.  You're welcome to reject me, but if you trust Christ as your Savior, as far as I'm concerned we're in the same family.  Sometimes family members have dischord and don't even share meals together, but still have the same Father - the Father of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 

While Christ will draw all men there are many scriptures that show people refusing to come to Christ and rejecting the Holy Spirit.

Yes - for a while.  There are ages to come.

Christ says in Mathew 25:46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal... So are you (and eaglesway) implying that we will not enter eternal life or eternal death? So we will only be in heaven or hell for a little while? Strongs 166. aiónios is used in both places.

Which are you saying, death forever, or "hell" forever?  It can't literally be both.  Again, consider influence in translation, then go from there - through prayer, rightly dividing the Word of truth.


Don't be led away by your own desires.

Good admonition for all of us.  I initially wondered where you were coming from, and thought of asking if you were coming as one open to whatever the truth of God truly is, or just to defend a position.  I spent most of my life after being brought to an old-fashioned altar and saved by God helping me call on the name of Jesus to save me, in the traditions of men.  It's only been about the past 8 years since God graciously showed me some things I'd not seen prior, and there's still much I don't see or understand.  But if He clearly showed me error, and convicted me and changed me from the inside out about it, I hope I'm truly willing to repent and accept what He offers.  Most of mainstream Christianity, at least in certain areas, make the Word of God of no effect by our traditions.  Are you assuming anyone who disagrees with you are being led away by their own desires, without truly knowing where a person, their heart, or where they're coming from, i.e., their personal relationship with Christ, or is it just a good general encouragement?

Christianity is a cross we are required to pick up and carry everyday

Yes, following Him, being obedient is that.  But that doesn't save us.  We can't earn our salvation.  That's a free gift, given to each through faith provided by Him, in each person's turn.  The elect/ekklesia in this age, the rest in the ages to come.  Until God becomes All in All.  The gates of the city are open day and night as the kings of the earth bring their treasures into it.  The leaves of the Tree are for the healing of the nations, there will be no more death, no more tears.

[Seth]

So are you (and eaglesway) implying that we will not enter eternal life or eternal death? So we will only be in heaven or hell for a little while? Strongs 166. aiónios is used in both places.

That is true, both are there. But, one of the things I believe is misunderstood in the scripture is that "aionios zoe" is immortality of itself. Some people may believe that but I don't. This doesn't mean that immortality is not promised in the Bible. Paul himself clearly says in 1 Cor 15, that "this mortal must put on immortality." Immortality is an intrinsic part of the Gospel promise.

As far as the life of the age, the Bible defines the term as being "in Christ." Having his Spirit in these ages and coming to know him (e.g. "and this is life aionios, to know him"). Paul described being delivered from sin as having life, being resurrected from an old life in sin. It doesn't mean that immortality is temporary. It CAN'T be temporary or it wouldn't be immortality. But, the judgment of some people is never compared in the Bible against immortality of the obedient, only against their life in these ages, yet culminating in God being all in all.

More info: http://mercifultruth.com/eternity.html

[eaglesway]

As a literalist, meaning- I believe our doctrine must satisfy and integrate all the scriptures- ask the following questions

Did Jesus mean it when He said "If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me"? Jn 12:32

Was the Logos made flesh was so careless with His language? Did He mispeak? Was He confused?

Did Paul mean it when he said, "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven, on earth, or under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father" Phil 2:10 

Did Paul mean that God, who supposedly so values the free will of man that he will allow billions to make a choice that causes their eternal torment, will force them all to bow and confess just before He throws them into the fire? or did Paul mean exactly what He said, that every knee shall bow to the Lordship of Jesus Chist- TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER?

"For so it pleased the Father to make all the funess dwell in him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of His cross, whether things in heaven or things on earth. Col 1:19,20

Did Paul mean what he was saying here? Is this the Word of God? How can all things be reconciled?

In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. (Eph 1:9-11)

Why does Paul keep saying "all things in heaven and earth?" What is not included in "all things in heaven an earth"? The King James Translates "the gathering together into one of all things in Christ". Isnt this what Jesus said, "If I be lifted up.... I will draw all men unto me"?

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.


Why does Paul say, "As in Adam ALL men die, SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL men be MADE ALIVE, f it is not so? If this part of Paul is not the word of God- WHY BELIEVE ANY OF IT?

What is this- "EACH IN HIS OWN ORDER" or in Eph 1 "the dispensation of the fulness of times" (which means, when all the periods of time are fulfilled)?

Also, if death is the last enemy and it is subjected to Christ and destroyed HOW CAN THE SECOND DEATH LAST FOREVER? When there is no death THERE IS ONLY LIFE.

How shall God be ALL IN ALL if most are in etrnal torment?

These are questions any honest mind must resolve. If death is destroyed, then hell is not forever- because it is the second death. If every enemy is subjected, and everything in heaven and earth "gathered together into one in Christ", and "all things are reconciled to God through the blood of His cross, whether things on earth or things in heaven, and "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess whether in heaven, on earth, or under the earth" - the question is, and must be- "How"- not "IF".

Hell, as it is wrongly translated from Gehenna, is corrective in nature. It is "aionian"(Grk)- of the ages. It is "olam"(Heb)- of long duration. It is not forever- or ALL THOSE VERSES AND MANY MORE ARE NOT LITERALLY TRUE AND THEREFORE NOT THE WORD OF GOD- which invalidates the whole bible, because it is all authoratative, as Paul and Peter both say- or it nothing but myths and platitudes.

Once I recognized the weight of those verses, and many more, I began to study the translations surrounding hell, sheol, gehenna and aion, becaused i realized THERE MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG.

If you would like to see a much more detailed explanation of these things, you could check out my web-site.

www.hellisamyth.com

[eaglesway]

As far as eternal life and eternal death, this is what I believe.

The word forever/eternal/everlasting is a translation of the Greek word aion(n)/aionios(adj)

They come from the OT Hebrew word "olam" which is used over 430 times in the OT.

Olam is a word that means "long duration forward or backward; beyond the horizon"- Strong's, Thayer, Briggs/Driver

It is a word that means beyond knowing in detail- sometimes it means forever(when atteached to God or the life of the redeemed)

Sometimes if means the far distant past(Gen 6:4 "men of old" men olam)

Sometimes it meant the lifetime of a bond-slave("He shall be your slave forever/olam" Exodus 21:6)

Don't take my word for it, check it out for yourself if you have e-sword or biblehub- olam did not always mean forever.

Olam was translated to "aion/aionian"

aion means "age" or "of the age" depending on the conjunctions. "aionian"- translated as eternal, actually means "of the ages". The last age, which you can read about in brief in 1 Corinthians 15, will be the final age, after all things are subjected and reconciled. that age will endure forever, and God, having redeemed all creation in the previous ages(see Romans 8:18-23), will be "ALL IN ALL".

So I believe in eternal life. I do not believe in eternal punishment.

[marie glen]

www.hellisamyth.com

Say! I've been to your site before! Very informative! And I loved your post.. I just wanted to respond one thing.. how gehenna as we know was part of the valley Hinnom where babes were sacrificed to Molech (the Baal of Canaan) and thus Apocalypse says armageddon will be fought, and how Jesus said the fire never goes out.. and other references say the smoke rises for 'ever', I often think this means ultimately the memory of it will remain for ever and ever.. the full understanding of the utter futility and failure of life without God, or rather dispersed, scattered, wandering away from God.. utterly futile, brings only calamity and nonlife-if God were to let that occur.

.."will have their part in the lake which burns with fire.." .."He comes in flaming fire.."

..awesome post! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

Reply #4 on: Today at 12:25:19 AM »
Quote
Quote from: jabcat on February 23, 2015, 01:50:32 AM
hi rick.  i suppose a basic direct response would be about aion's (specifically, aioniou here) accurate translation.  Young's renders it age-during (of an age or to the age)..all prior to God becoming all in all as eaglesway mentioned above.

Youngs is the only one I have seen not say eternal. I can literally list 20 other translations that translate it to be eternal.

Probably true, perhaps they(translators) just don't desire to translate properly for then all their other publications and commentaries would have to be rewritten which be a lot of work and a whole lot of refuting.
1Co 15:26  the last enemy is done away--death;
Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega,is saying the Lord God, Who is and Who was and Who is coming, the Almighty."
Rev 20:14  and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
Nothing in these verses sound like "eternal" when death is destroyed, abolished.. death is no more and just does not fit in to eternal as you seem to desire to embrace.
CLV(i) 9 And being perfected, He became the cause of eonian salvation to all who are obeying Him,
Diaglott(i) 9 and having been perfected he became to those obeying him to all a cause of salvation age-lasting,
Rotherham(i) 9 And, being made perfect, became, to all them that obey him, Author of salvation age-abiding;
JMNT(i) 9 And being brought to the goal of [His] destiny (being brought to maturity and completion; being finished and perfected) He became a cause of eonian deliverance (or: rescue, wholeness and good health and restoration to the original state of being which pertains to and has the character of the Age; safety and healing of and for the ages) for all (or: in all) those habitually listening, paying attention and acting in response (or: the giving of the ear in hearing from below, with obedience) to Him,

[Seth]

Isaiah 45
22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
            For I am God, and there is no other.

      23"I have sworn by Myself,
            The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
            And will not turn back,
            That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

      24"They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.'
            Men will come to Him,
            And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.

All who were angry will come to him and be ashamed. But they WILL bow and "swear allegiance," and they they WILL say of him that in him are righteousness and strength. This statement is found just one chapter before this statement:

Isaiah 46   
9"Remember the former things long past,
            For I am God, and there is no other;
            I am God, and there is no one like Me,

      10Declaring the end from the beginning,
            And from ancient times things which have not been done,
            Saying, 'My purpose will be established,
            And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

He can accomplish ALL his pleasure? Not according to Orthodoxy. So what is his good pleasure?  :Chinscratch:

1 Tim 2
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

So we have a Bible that says that God CAN do and get whatever he wants, plus he wants everyone to be saved, and that every knee shall bow and every mouth shall swear allegiance to him. And I'm supposed to think these things cannot happen because several Bibles agree on a mistranslation?

[micah7:9]

Isaiah 45
22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
            For I am God, and there is no other.

      23"I have sworn by Myself,
            The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
            And will not turn back,
            That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

      24"They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.'
            Men will come to Him,
            And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.

All who were angry will come to him and be ashamed. But they WILL bow and "swear allegiance," and they they WILL say of him that in him are righteousness and strength. This statement is found just one chapter before this statement:

Isaiah 46   
9"Remember the former things long past,
            For I am God, and there is no other;
            I am God, and there is no one like Me,

      10Declaring the end from the beginning,
            And from ancient times things which have not been done,
            Saying, 'My purpose will be established,
            And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

He can accomplish ALL his pleasure? Not according to Orthodoxy. So what is his good pleasure?  :Chinscratch:

1 Tim 2
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

So we have a Bible that says that God CAN do and get whatever he wants, plus he wants everyone to be saved, and that every knee shall bow and every mouth shall swear allegiance to him. And I'm supposed to think these things cannot happen because several Bibles agree on a mistranslation?

Again.....I suspect...yes :rolllol:.

[joeteekay]

hi rick.  i suppose a basic direct response would be about aion's (specifically, aioniou here) accurate translation.  Young's renders it age-during (of an age or to the age)..all prior to God becoming all in all as eaglesway mentioned above.

Youngs is the only one I have seen not say eternal. I can literally list 20 other translations that translate it to be eternal. If your appeal is to authority then you must recognize that all other translators have translated the word to mean eternal.  Strongs defines it as eternal, unending (166. aiónios). BTW, eaglesway has not refuted that the scripture says you must obey Christ for eternal life. While Christ will draw all men there are many scriptures that show people refusing to come to Christ and rejecting the Holy Spirit. Christ says in Mathew 25:46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal... So are you (and eaglesway) implying that we will not enter eternal life or eternal death? So we will only be in heaven or hell for a little while? Strongs 166. aiónios is used in both places.

Don't be led away by your own desires. Christianity is a cross we are required to pick up and carry everyday

You may also look at these translations for that translated word.

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983 
The Emphatic Diaglott, 1912 edition (Greek/English Interlinear)
The Holy Bible in Modern English (Fenton), 1903)
The New Covenant, 1884
The New Testament in Modern Speech, 1910
The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, 1976
The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958
The New Testament a Translation, 1938

:Peace2:

[eaglesway]

I do believe subjection to the Lordship of Jesus Christ is a pre-requisite to receiving eternal life.

I believe every knee will bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father- as it is written in Phil 2:9-11

I believe every adversary will be subjected to Christ until death is abolished and God is all in all- as it is written in 1 Cor 15:22-28

[jabcat]

I do believe subjection to the Lordship of Jesus Christ is a pre-requisite to receiving eternal life.

I believe every knee will bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father- as it is written in Phil 2:9-11

I believe every adversary will be subjected to Christ until death is abolished and God is all in all- as it is written in 1 Cor 15:22-28

  I read some sort of assumption that if one believes God has the power, will, and intent to completely ultimately reconcile His whole creation, then they don't believe in living in a true believers' life.  But amen on the above.

[micah7:9]

I do believe subjection to the Lordship of Jesus Christ is a pre-requisite to receiving eternal life.

I believe every knee will bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father- as it is written in Phil 2:9-11

I believe every adversary will be subjected to Christ until death is abolished and God is all in all- as it is written in 1 Cor 15:22-28

  I read some sort of assumption that if one believes God has the power, will, and intent to completely ultimately reconcile His whole creation, then they don't believe in living in a true believers' life.  But amen on the above.

"then they don't believe in living in a true believers' life." I cannot see that, when one is drawn and led by the Holy Spirit, a true believers' life has no option.  :2c:

[dajomaco]

The punishment for sin is death.
When your body is dead it can't sin.

God having compassion on Adam and Eve chased them out of the garden,
lest they eat from the tree of life and live forever in there sin.

It is the flesh that cannot please God.
There is no pleasure for God, in keeping the flesh alive to torture it.
The flesh cannot please God even if it is being tortured.
It is still just flesh .

We can start to please God the moment we believe our flesh is dead.
WE can bend our knee and confess Jesus is Lord.
We can only do this through the power of the Spirit.

This world's wisdom demands an eye for an eye.
So hell exists in the mind of men who seek justice from God for the flesh.

[dajomaco]

My flesh is a vessel for destruction.
We each have our own flesh vessel.
When our flesh is destroyed .How long is it destroyed for?
The flesh of man is destroyed for ever.

[jabcat]

I do believe subjection to the Lordship of Jesus Christ is a pre-requisite to receiving eternal life.

I believe every knee will bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father- as it is written in Phil 2:9-11

I believe every adversary will be subjected to Christ until death is abolished and God is all in all- as it is written in 1 Cor 15:22-28

  I read some sort of assumption that if one believes God has the power, will, and intent to completely ultimately reconcile His whole creation, then they don't believe in living in a true believers' life.  But amen on the above.

"then they don't believe in living in a true believers' life." I cannot see that, when one is drawn and led by the Holy Spirit, a true believers' life has no option.  :2c:

yes.  just trying to make sure i'm being clear what i'm saying..i think that's what many miss, sort of "oh, you believe in UR, so that means you think you can live like you want, you don't even have to believe, God's going to save everybody anyway".  But i'm saying, that's not what a true believer says, nor how someone following Christ lives.  He works in a believer's life, to do His good pleasure.  Again, I think there are just some misunderstandings of what Biblical, Christian ultimate reconciliation is. 

Never mind if one has called on the name of the Lord, believed and trust Him as Savior, and is in surrender to Him. :(

[marie glen]

yes.  just trying to make sure i'm being clear what i'm saying..i think that's what many miss, sort of "oh, you believe in UR, so that means you think you can live like you want, you don't even have to believe, God's going to save everybody anyway".  But i'm saying, that's not what a true believer says, nor how someone following Christ lives.  He works in a believer's life, to do His good pleasure.  Again, I think there are just some misunderstandings of what Biblical, Christian ultimate reconciliation is. 

Never mind if one has called on the name of the Lord, believed and trust Him as Savior, and is in surrender to Him. :(

I think that's very true, and most think UR is all paths lead to the Father, or all saved but without repentance and being born again, and following via the Spirit..

[eaglesway]

yes.  just trying to make sure i'm being clear what i'm saying..i think that's what many miss, sort of "oh, you believe in UR, so that means you think you can live like you want, you don't even have to believe, God's going to save everybody anyway".  But i'm saying, that's not what a true believer says, nor how someone following Christ lives.  He works in a believer's life, to do His good pleasure.  Again, I think there are just some misunderstandings of what Biblical, Christian ultimate reconciliation is. 

Never mind if one has called on the name of the Lord, believed and trust Him as Savior, and is in surrender to Him. :(

This is true, and clarifying that issue quickly and effectively is one of our biggest challenges.

I think that's very true, and most think UR is all paths lead to the Father, or all saved but without repentance and being born again, and following via the Spirit..

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:  all men must be born again from above[the Father's will/and not of man's will]

[CHB]

Yes, UR is misunderstood and most people think of Unitarian Universalists when you mention UR. We often are associated with this group.

CHB