I understand that the Pharisee's of Jesus' day predominantly considered Gehenna to reference eternal punishment (or, in some cases, temporal punishment or annihilation). In warning his listeners about Gehenna then, was Jesus referring to something most of the Jews of his day would recognize as eternal conscious torment? The common people, after all, tended to follow the Pharisee's words. If Christ was referencing something other than the Pharisee's Gehenna—the Gehenna that Jews already knew—would he not have clarified that he was speaking about something different?
Christ's 'Gehenna' warnings sure do seem to reference eternal punishment, destruction, or non-remedial punishment. They seem much more in line with the Pharisee's view than simply referencing the Gehenna has the garbage dump of Jerusalem.
Mark 9:47-48 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into Gehenna, where the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched."
Matthew 10:28 " Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."
I have been a Christian Universalist for about three years now, mostly because I don't think I could know God any other way. I cling to those hopeful verses that seem to point to universal restoration, but doubt still clings—lately, much more strongly than hope.
GEHENNA (excerpt from Wikipedia )
Rabbinical Judaism
The picture of Gehenna as the place of punishment or destruction of the wicked occurs frequently in the Mishnah in Kiddushin 4.14, Avot 1.5; 5.19, 20, Tosefta t. Berecraph 6.15, and Babylonian Talmud b.Rosh Hashanah 16b:7a; b. Berecraph 28b. Gehenna is considered a Purgatory-like place where the wicked go to suffer until they have atoned for their sins. It is stated that the maximum amount of time a sinner can spend in Gehenna is one year There are also four people who do not get a share in Olam Ha-Ba.[19] Those people are Doeg the Edomite, Ahitophel, Balaam, and Gehazi.
Due to Jewish religious tradition regarding the bloodiness of its history, Gehenna became a metonym for "Hell" or any similar place of punishment in the afterlife.
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. 1200 CE). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Hermann Strack and Paul Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources.[20] Also, Lloyd R. Bailey's "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell"[21] from 1986 holds a similar view.
There is evidence however that the southwest shoulder of this valley (Ketef Hinnom) was a burial location with numerous burial chambers that were reused by generations of families from as early as the seventh until the fifth century BCE. The use of this area for tombs continued into the first centuries BCE and CE. By 70 CE, the area was not only a burial site but also a place for cremation of the dead with the arrival of the Tenth Roman Legion, who were the only group known to practice cremation in this region.[22]
In time it became deemed to be accursed and an image of the place of destruction in Jewish folklore.[23][24] However, Jewish folklore suggests the valley had a 'gate' which led down to a molten lake of fire.
Eventually the Hebrew term Gehinnom[25] became a figurative name for the place of spiritual purification for the wicked dead in Judaism. According to most Jewish sources, the period of purification or punishment is limited to only 12 months and every Sabbath day is excluded from punishment.[26] After this the soul will ascend to Olam Ha-Ba (the world to come), be destroyed, or continue to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse.[27]
this doesn't say the Pharisees all believed Gehenna was 'eternal torment'..it was temporary in their belief, 12 months at most.Maybe some thought Gehenna was eternal but generally the Pharisees believed it was temporary. If the chastisement/ correction in Gehenna was 'never ending' Jesus would surely have said so . To remove any doubt over such an important matter Jesus surely would have used a Greek word such as 'aidios' (everlasting,eternal) to describe the duration of chastisement/ correction there but He did not He uses the Greek word 'aionios' (age -during)which is derived from the Hebrew concept of 'olam'. Olam definetly does not mean eternal... so Gehenna is definitely not eternal/everlasting.
hi! we recently had a very active thread on here about gehenna.. I will see if I can find it and will post the link :smile:
I've never heard before that the pharisees considered it to be eternal punishment, etc.. But have always heard the Hebrews did not have any concept of a 'hell' or 'hell' like place. From what most of us understand, I think, is that gehenna was the Jerusalem town dump. And egads, even the bodies of criminals were thrown there.. it was a valley outside of Jerusalem.. nearby to.. or part of ? the Hinnom Valley where the nation sinned greatly against Jehovah, our heavenly Father.
And the Greek.. so pedominant in the world in Jesus' day was a very dramatic culture.. their speech, stories, dramas, etc. For Jesus to say.. if your hand causes you to offend one of these little ones - earlier in the chapter - it would be better to throw your hand away, is a dramatic turn of speech. And of course, he's right! As metaphor of course!
In the old testament it was "sheol".. "all meet in sheol" .."oh that you would hide me in sheol" .."I will go down to sheol grieving.." .."in sheol there is neither thought nor doing.."
The greek hades means "place of the dead".. they were a pagan culture in a long line of paganism.. the place of the dead is still the grave.. every 'hell' reference can be easily debunked.
It doesn't bother me that He can destroy ones, body and psyche/being. I consider that if not for His intervention (and intent) we would all perish, the natural result of "missing the mark" (being flawed/imperfect).
Most folks here, I believe, think of the lake of fire as a spiritual lake.. one we, as believers now experience, the purifying fire of God's love. And the more we love Him.. the purer the fire in us..
I'm off to find the other thread.. it's a good one! :gsmile: oh! and to read Darryl's post..
:Chinscratch: that thread took a bad turn.. :sigh:
please study the Hebrew term 'olam' and its relationship to 'aionios'..in the Septuagint Greek translation of the Old Testament, which Jesus and the apostles all quote from so its authoritative, the Hebrew word 'olam' is translated 'aionios' or 'aionion' (the word mistranslated as 'eternal' in Matthew 25:46).Olam does not mean eternal or everlasting. It carries the meaning of 'something just over the horizon' or 'something that lasts as long as its needed then it ends'...really, there is so much study to do on these matters and it is essential to study 'olam' and its relationship to 'aionios'...there's a great thesis on 'olam' and its relationship to 'aionios' on this website..I'll try find the link when I get time...it conclusively proves that 'aionios' does not mean everlasting.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :iagree: :iagree:
Quote from: marie glen on January 25, 2016, 05:20:20 AM
I've never heard before that the pharisees considered it to be eternal punishment, etc.
they didn't...there was no general consensus within the Pharisees regarding the duration of time spent in Gehenna...most believed it only lasted 12 months at the most then people were released.
Quote from: darryl on January 25, 2016, 05:03:46 AM
GEHENNA (excerpt from Wikipedia )
Rabbinical Judaism
The picture of Gehenna as the place of punishment or destruction of the wicked occurs frequently in the Mishnah in Kiddushin 4.14, Avot 1.5; 5.19, 20, Tosefta t. Berecraph 6.15, and Babylonian Talmud b.Rosh Hashanah 16b:7a; b. Berecraph 28b. Gehenna is considered a Purgatory-like place where the wicked go to suffer until they have atoned for their sins. It is stated that the maximum amount of time a sinner can spend in Gehenna is one year There are also four people who do not get a share in Olam Ha-Ba.[19] Those people are Doeg the Edomite, Ahitophel, Balaam, and Gehazi.
Due to Jewish religious tradition regarding the bloodiness of its history, Gehenna became a metonym for "Hell" or any similar place of punishment in the afterlife.
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. 1200 CE). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Hermann Strack and Paul Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources.[20] Also, Lloyd R. Bailey's "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell"[21] from 1986 holds a similar view.
There is evidence however that the southwest shoulder of this valley (Ketef Hinnom) was a burial location with numerous burial chambers that were reused by generations of families from as early as the seventh until the fifth century BCE. The use of this area for tombs continued into the first centuries BCE and CE. By 70 CE, the area was not only a burial site but also a place for cremation of the dead with the arrival of the Tenth Roman Legion, who were the only group known to practice cremation in this region.[22]
In time it became deemed to be accursed and an image of the place of destruction in Jewish folklore.[23][24] However, Jewish folklore suggests the valley had a 'gate' which led down to a molten lake of fire.
Eventually the Hebrew term Gehinnom[25] became a figurative name for the place of spiritual purification for the wicked dead in Judaism. According to most Jewish sources, the period of purification or punishment is limited to only 12 months and every Sabbath day is excluded from punishment.[26] After this the soul will ascend to Olam Ha-Ba (the world to come), be destroyed, or continue to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse.[27]
this doesn't say the Pharisees all believed Gehenna was 'eternal torment'..it was temporary in their belief, 12 months at most.Maybe some thought Gehenna was eternal but generally the Pharisees believed it was temporary. If the chastisement/ correction in Gehenna was 'never ending' Jesus would surely have said so . To remove any doubt over such an important matter Jesus surely would have used a Greek word such as 'aidios' (everlasting,eternal) to describe the duration of chastisement/ correction there but He did not He uses the Greek word 'aionios' (age -during)which is derived from the Hebrew concept of 'olam'. Olam definetly does not mean eternal... so Gehenna is definitely not eternal/everlasting.
my take on the NT 'Gehenna' passages re the 'worm' and 'everlasting fire' is this...earthly worms (maggots) devour rotting flesh..maggots are even used by doctors for cleaning out necrotic tissue within a wound and disinfection.
There is also evidence that maggot therapy may help with wound healing..similarly,the 'worm' (maggot) in 'Gehenna' devours the rotten soul (NOT the spirit) and destroys the parts of the soul that need destroying..it's the worm of God so does not die (unlike earthly worms)..the fire in 'Gehenna' purifying the soul is the fire of God so is not extinguished...it's all corrective in nature, non eternal, and for the sinners ultimate good.
Quote from: marie glen on January 25, 2016, 05:20:20 AM
It doesn't bother me that He can destroy ones, body and psyche/being. I consider that if not for His intervention (and intent) we would all perish, the natural result of "missing the mark" (being flawed/imperfect).
Interestingly enough the Bible never talks about one's 'spirit' being destroyed only one's soul and body...God is the 'Father of spirits' and He does not destroy the 'spirit' of his creatures (human beings).
Amen! :thumbsup: ..and even if He wanted to, which He doesn't.. He wouldn't have to, as "the wages/result of sin/imperfection is death.." (We would all just naturally perish.) Since He is Life itself.. and also Perfection, to differ with Him in any tiny way in thought, word or deed is to be imperfect, the opposite of life". (Or that's how it seems to me:)
It's my belief all 'punishment' is but results and consequences of mankind's own doings.. and rain falls on all, as we're in an imperfect world.. Even the lof, if it's gehenna, is the sorrow of repentance, the burning of remorse.. Or so I believe! I'm not saying He feels no anger whatsoever when horrible and despicable things are done to innocent folks.. I mean I wouldn't know, but I'm thinking logic..
Two ends of a pole.. that He is love and infinitely merciful.. kind.. I mean, He is after all, Love.
It's late.. I think I'm starting to babble.. I enjoy your posts, darryl! :smile:
Quote from: marie glen on January 25, 2016, 06:20:12 AM
Amen! :thumbsup: ..and even if He wanted to, which He doesn't.. He wouldn't have to, as "the wages/result of sin/imperfection is death.." (We would all just naturally perish.) Since He is Life itself.. and also Perfection, to differ with Him in any tiny way in thought, word or deed is to be imperfect, the opposite of life". (Or that's how it seems to me:)
It's my belief all 'punishment' is but results and consequences of mankind's own doings.. and rain falls on all, as we're in an imperfect world.. Even the lof, if it's gehenna, is the sorrow of repentance, the burning of remorse.. Or so I believe! I'm not saying He feels no anger whatsoever when horrible and despicable things are done to innocent folks.. I mean I wouldn't know, but I'm thinking logic..
Two ends of a pole.. that He is love and infinitely merciful.. kind.. I mean, He is after all, Love.
It's late.. I think I'm starting to babble.. I enjoy your posts, darryl! :smile:
yes !...good points !..I'm enjoying yours too, marie ! :gimmefive:
Quote from: Kate on January 25, 2016, 03:52:27 AMMark 9:47-48 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into Gehenna, where the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched."
'worms'?..in the plural ?..that's interesting because it's actually singular, 'worm', in the original Greek (skolex = worm) text of this passage.
Quote from: darryl on January 25, 2016, 07:01:17 AM
Quote from: Kate on January 25, 2016, 03:52:27 AMMark 9:47-48 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into Gehenna, where the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched."
'worms'?..in the plural ?..that's interesting because it's actually singular, 'worm', in the original Greek (skolex = worm) text of this passage.
This could be helpful Daryll recently many of posts made and covered a lot of ground on the worm verses worms subject :dsunny:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/worm-dieth-not/ (http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/worm-dieth-not/)
:Chinscratch: I agree! That's very interesting..
?...worm as metaphor for decadence.. disintegration, corruption.. rot! (sin, imperfection, opposite of God/Life/Perfection, so is nonlife? which ='s? the knowing of good from not good. Knowing it is life from nonlife - Go not that way.) ....?
Thank you both very much-- I will reply more in depth soon, as I worked late tonight. Truthfully, I just feel so spiritually exhausted. Such literary and linguistic ananlyses sound so foreign to me, and if I am being honest, a Universalist argument can sound as convincing and research-based as an ECT argument to my untrained mind. The only difference seems that my heart simply FEELS shut to a god of eternal punishment, but of course, most Christians would simply tell me that this is my carnal mind leading me astray.:/
Quote from: rosered on January 25, 2016, 01:05:46 PM
Quote from: darryl on January 25, 2016, 07:01:17 AM
Quote from: Kate on January 25, 2016, 03:52:27 AMMark 9:47-48 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into Gehenna, where the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched."
'worms'?..in the plural ?..that's interesting because it's actually singular, 'worm', in the original Greek (skolex = worm) text of this passage.
This could be helpful Daryll recently many of posts made and covered a lot of ground on the worm verses worms subject :dsunny:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/worm-dieth-not/ (http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/worm-dieth-not/)
k..thanks !..actually I've already read that thread..I still like my take on 'the worm' as a metaphor for the purifying agent of God that consumes all that is depraved,worldly,prideful, unGodly etc within people ( the stuff that prevents people from seeing Jesus for who He truly is ) so that after this (maybe arduous) process they might see Jesus for who He is, turn to him, repent, cry out and be saved from Gehenna or the Lake of Fire ...
to tell the truth the 'worm' doesn't scare me like it did when I was an 'eternal hellist'..it terrified me then but now I'm more in touch with God's love I really do see 'the worm' of Mark 9:47-48 in an entirely new,different and beneficial way ( as I tried to explain in my post somewhere above ).
It's interesting to note that the Bible speaks of the soul being destroyed or the body but NEVER the spirit...that's very significant in my view.
Quote from: Kate on January 26, 2016, 03:23:02 AM
Thank you both very much-- I will reply more in depth soon, as I worked late tonight. Truthfully, I just feel so spiritually exhausted. Such literary and linguistic ananlyses sound so foreign to me, and if I am being honest, a Universalist argument can sound as convincing and research-based as an ECT argument to my untrained mind. The only difference seems that my heart simply FEELS shut to a god of eternal punishment, but of course, most Christians would simply tell me that this is my carnal mind leading me astray.:/
much of the problem is due to the fact that we read the Bible in English translated by 'ET' translators and not in the original language(s)...
anyway, in Mt7 : 23 Jesus says, "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me you who practice lawlessness'.'Please note He doesn't say 'depart from me into 'eternal (aidios) punishment (timora) in hellfire...in fact, Jesus NEVER uses the Greek words which unequivocally mean 'eternal' (aidios) and 'vindictive punishment' (timora). He uses 'aionios' (age- during) and 'kolasis' (chastising/ corrective punishment)
....so yes, they do depart but only into a period of corrective chastening, not eternal torment...again, how do I know this ?..one reason is because in Mt 25:46 Jesus says,
46. "And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian (Greek word used is 'aionion') pruning (Greek word used is 'kolasis' meaning a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age).MITCHELLS TRANSLATION.
again, Jesus NEVER uses the Greek term for 'eternal punishment' (aidios timora). He uses 'AIONION KOLASIS' meaning 'age- during correction'.
Also in Jeremiah 32:35 concerning sacrificing children by burning them alive to Molech, God says burning people in fire is an abomination to Him..the very thought never entered His mind.
So, God hates the act of burning humans alive for Molech yet will burn human beings, whom He created, alive for all eternity ?. No, this idea of 'eternal torment' is obviously wrong.I am certain it hurts God when 'Christians' unjustly present Him as a God who torments human beings forever without end.
My view diverges from the norm to some extent, so I'll put it out there Kate.
In my opinion aion is a Greek transliteration of "olam".
Olam occurs around 440 times in the OT. It use is diverse to the extent it always means something hard to see- whether because of distance(ancient times in Gen. 6:4), long-duration (Gen 9:16), or uncertain circumstances(a slaves lifespan Deut 15:17) or, in some cases even, forever(Psalm 90:2; 92:8)
Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations.
2Before the mountains were born
Or You gave birth to the earth and the world,
Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.
God is God as far back as you can see and beyond and as far forward as you can see and beyond, from olam to olam.
But a slave is indentured "olam"- for the rest of His life, how ever long that is, or until his bond holder releases him from indenture.
an aion is a time appropriate to a purpose, and when it come to Gehenna, it could be many stripes or few. It is "olam"- impossible to see from here.
olam
Word Origin
from an unused word
Definition
long duration, antiquity, futurity
NASB Translation
ages (1), all successive (1), always (1), ancient (13), ancient times (3), continual (1), days of old (1), eternal (2), eternity (3), ever (10), Everlasting (2), everlasting (110), forever (136), forever and ever (1), forever* (70), forevermore* (1), lasting (1), long (2), long ago (3), long past (1), long time (3), never* (17), old (11), permanent (10), permanently (1), perpetual (29), perpetually (1)
The Pharisees saw olam as refering to world/ages. To this day among Jews "olam Ha- ba" means the world of light to come, "olam ha- ze" means this present dark world, "tikkun olam" means "repairing the world"- the mission of God's people. Look it up!
This is what Jesus was (imo) referring to -correction in the world to come, or the life of blessing in the world to come, based on repairing the world(with Him) in this age.
You can see this in Paul's writing in 1 Cor 3:12-15...and remember, Paul was a Pharisee.
12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
The Pharisees were building wood, hay and stubble, and the Day(the presence of Jesus whose face shines like the sun shining in its strength) was revealing it. Gehenna is a symbol Jesus used for the place of the removal of this garbage....remember from the beginning He said things like "I will separate the wheat from the chaff, and I will thoroughly purge my threshing floor, and i will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
The chaff is what gets broken off the wheat. It is good for nothing but to be burned. Every grain has wheat and chaff. The wheat is gathered. The chaff is burned.
In revelations 14 you see that the devil and his angels are tormented "in the presence of the Lamb and His holy angels"....remember, there is fire in His eyes and a two-edged sword comes out of His mouth and "every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess".
When shall they bow? When the sword of His mouth has pierced their hearts, separating the wheat fron the chaff, and the flames have consumed the darkness of the chaff(carnal man/Adam)- they will bow, and they will confess, and they will be gathered.
Here are three verses from Paul that are consistent with these thoughts
Eph 1:9,10
In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.
Col 1:18-20
He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
1 Cor 15:25-28
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
Many stripes or few, according to the need, "You will not get out until you have paid the last penny".
That last penny is the same for all, it is humbling ourselves before our Savior and Lord. Bending the knee, confessing His Lordship, receiving reconciliation, being filled up with love.
As we were once also enemies and have been saved by grace, and purified by fire, eventually every last enemy will be subjected, reconciled and then gathered into the "all in all" of God's love.
At question is whether we will participate in it as priests and children of God.
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Eph 2:3-10
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. rev 20:6
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. Rom 8:18-23
Or will we be among those who say "Lord, Lord" and list our works and our professions, when all He wanted was a heart of compassion, a lil "tikkun olam" :o)
How much of our works will be burned up in the fire that comes from the eyes of the one who "tries the reins and the hearts" :o)
:thumbsup: :dsunny: :HeartThrob: Great posts
Daryll , Marie and John!!! , great thoughts Kate!!!!! John that was wonderful and helpful for me about OLam !
second death is harm
I have considered the lake of fire
as purification and it is the most painful part to avoid
and JESUS keeping us from the last two woes in the earth and the last two vials poured out those are explained well in REV 9
For me the first resurrection is raised to Life from the dead in Christ and keeping you from those fiery trials that come on the rest of the world
But the dead did not live again till after the 1000 year reign of Christ Rev 20
Many different views on what the 1000 year reign of Christ is ,
But for me it is as simple as keeping you in HIM and protected ''that last hour '' protected from the harm that the rest of the world shall experience to learn righteousness in the earth , because Jesus Christ will make a short work of it ... Romans 9
Weymouth New Testament
for the Lord will hold a reckoning upon the earth, making it efficacious and brief."
World English Bible
for He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth."
Young's Literal Translation
for a matter He is finishing, and is cutting short in righteousness, because a matter cut short will the Lord do upon the land.
keep you from the hour of trial Romans 9 The Calling of the Gentiles
...27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA,
IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; 28FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY."
29And just as Isaiah foretold, "UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY/SEED , WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."
Rev 3 is the brotherly lOVE Message to the Church in Philadelphia
...9Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan,
who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie-- I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. 10Because you have kept the word of My perseverance,
I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown....
the feet are the teaching [ good news of the gospel that the dead will hear HIS VOICE AND LIVE ] the foot over the neck is to conquer the enemy and making him bow down in submission To hear what the Spirit is saying ... Those in Christ will be as the VOICE of many waters and give to drink in the very parched and barren waste land
How and when and where ? those things may have been and are and will be still , as I know all things are possible with God :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on January 26, 2016, 01:15:17 PM
and JESUS keeping us from the last two woes in the earth and the last two vials poured out those are explained well in REV 9
For me the first resurrection is raised to Life from the dead in Christ and keeping you from those fiery trials that come on the rest of the world
you know, our world has suffered so much..so many awful wars, pestilence, disease and child mortality thru out human history even today..I'm starting to think maybe, just maybe all those terrible judgments in Revelation will not happen cuz God our Daddy will not go thru with it..there's times in the OT God threatens to do stuff then relents..I hope its the same with all the horrors in Revelation..that God will relent.
Quote from: darryl on January 26, 2016, 02:35:40 PM
Quote from: rosered on January 26, 2016, 01:15:17 PM
and JESUS keeping us from the last two woes in the earth and the last two vials poured out those are explained well in REV 9
For me the first resurrection is raised to Life from the dead in Christ and keeping you from those fiery trials that come on the rest of the world
you know, our world has suffered so much..so many awful wars, pestilence, disease and child mortality thru out human history even today..I'm starting to think maybe, just maybe all those terrible judgments in Revelation will not happen cuz God our Daddy will not go thru with it..there's times in the OT God threatens to do stuff then relents..I hope its the same with all the horrors in Revelation..that God will relent.
Hi Daryll ,
When I have considered the reasons the Lord Jesus Christ come as grace as a "gift" to us from God in His wisdom
He come to give a more abundant spiritual life in my opinion .. and put an end to the works/ fruits of satan and destroy Babylon in one Day /1000 yr reign
I believe Revelations is all about the works of God though Jesus Christ destroying both
that warring is spiritual wickedness in high places
To me that starts and has a beginning in the haughty and high minded thoughts that rise up against God whom is LOVE and God is a consuming fire but there is no death in HIM AT ALL
Death is all we know and call it life with eyes though the carnal mind perceiving it , we see in the news murders daily over money and power , loved ones die , there are all kinds of evil being constantly done to the unsuspecting and good natured souls just trying to help , killing just to be killing
as in the days of Noah JESUS SAID HE WOULD COME , re intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5)
not water but fire this time , Jesus was baptised and kindled that fire in the earth in LUKE 12 ;4949 "
I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed!
2 Peter 3
Christ's Coming Judgment...6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8
But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. I see the Revelation in the 1000 year reign as that ONE DAY OF THE LORD to destroy the works of satan and Babylon , because John foretold that He was in the Spirit on the LORDS DAY and saw all this happening and going down and the write it down for us to know as well ...
1 John 3 ;8
I can very well see that the works of satan would be delt with in Jesus Christ the WORD OF GOD made flesh , in our flesh
7Little children, make sure no one
deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous,
just as He is righteous;
8
the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one who is born of God practices sin,
because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God....This seed of Christ is the only thing that can endure the sodom and Gomorrah lake of fire and brimstone effect
If you would read that in Gen 19 what was the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah ?
, those men with men acts against the 2 angels messengers of rev 11 witnesses to warn of the coming destruction same as Romans 1 we have the HOLY WORD SPEAK men marrying men come on ?? women marring women , as the days of Noah , golly does it get any more perverse than that even going against nature /beast lying with intimately in thoughts of perversion and acts of violence Leviticus 18:22 much less GODS WORD ...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+19 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+19)
We are so conditioned to the death mode and carnal nature , how can the HOLY SPIRIT LIVE amongst such things ?!
Though JESUS CHRIST Whom has
overcome the world already and that seed remains , Sodom /Gomorrah is our example of those things to come
:2c: the things in Revelation are already occurring.. and right now the 4 angels (7:1) are holding back the (new) fiery wind unleashed by man (13:13; 6:12-17 - but the seals are a blend of their 1st & their last - a 'lock' on the vision) -- when those winds are once again used in warfare (limited?) is the opening of the 7th seal which ushers in world governing, marshall law for 5 months..
the bowls (or vials) I believe occur all at once and is seal 6 & 13:13 occurring again, and is the fire He arrives in/with and with His angels to gather the elect.. as the fire 'comes down' the elect 'meet Him at His arrival.. the flames not touching.. 666, i believe runs for 45 days-Dn 12:11,12 45 days to keep a very low profile in His guiding Spirit w/o having to buy or sell..
(have we hijacked the thread?) :mshock: (revelation is a fire in my heart and mind for many years now.. man's world is built on sand.. if the whole world repented and turned to YHWH.. would be a different culmination of man's doings upon earth.. but I honestly cannot see it happening)
When I was a young man of God, full of zeal and vision, I used to weep and mourn before the Lord over the awesome things he had shown me, concerning the body of Christ, the kingdom of God- and the ignorant arrogance of organizational Christians. I never worried too much about the world and its evil, because somehow I always new that the work of God in this age was the Bride, the first fruits, the ecclesia. That is where the hope of the world is hidden. Jesus is the treasure and the answer, but we are the vessels that bear this treasure of "Christ in you"- and hold the keys to the kingdom. Why, the very gates of Sheol cannot stand against us.
As Jesus said to Peter, "When you were young, you went where you would and strengthened yourself, but when you are old another will strengthen you and lead you where you dont want to go".
The earth must be sown with the blood of the martyrs- that is where the victory comes, "Except a corn of wheat fall to the ground and be hidden in the earth, it cannot bear fruit like unto itself."
The Lord spoke to me pretty clearly one night many years ago as I was interceding and worrying the Lord about His work in the earth and my part in it.
The jist of it was,
"This is my plan, from the beginning. I am the progenitor, the initiator. Satan reacts to what I do, I do not react to him. I am way ahead of him. In this way he does my bidding though he doesnt kno it.
I will do as I will. I am in control of everything. I will have my way whether you are a part of it or not. I am not dependent on you to accomplish all my plan. I will have my glory and fulfill all my desire in the earth whether you are a part of it or not."
Oddly enough, this mild rebuke set me free into an abundant joy. God was not waiting on me. He was not waiting on the world. He is patient and full of mercy, not willing that any should perish, and giving all abundant opportunity to come to the fire and stand in it. Now I wait upon the Lord in a full assurance of faith. He will have His way, and all flesh shall see it, but no flesh will glory in His presence. If we are patient, and humble, and let patience have its perfect work that we may be wholly equipped lacking nothing- He may allow us to walk in those works created from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them.
If we cease from our own works, and enter His rest, and cease striving, and know that He Is God, we might get to see His glory manifest in the earth right where we live.
If we humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God he will lift us up, in due time- whether we are like Abraham, who saw it from a distance but went to his grave in the faith of his vision without touching it, or Moses who stood on the mountain and looked over the promised land, even as he passed the baton on to Joshua, never to walk on that land himself- but THATS OK!
Faith is the SUBSTANCE OF THINGS HOPED FOR! Our faith is embracing the reality as we hold onto Him, even if we pass in seeming invisibility, we carry this treasure in earthen vessels, and everyone of us who dies in faith tears another little tear in the veil that covers all the people, and one day the heavens will roll back like a scroll and His glory will flood the earth and we will be revealed with Him in glory.
If He puts His sickle in the earth he will harvest both wheat and tares. Only the angels will see the difference. They will gather His elect from the four winds of heaven, and the tares will be gathered, bound and burned in the fire. Death releases everyone from time into something else. But God will have His way. His will, will be done on earth as it is in heaven, because Jesus prayed in faith believing. He believed because He had seen it already. He was Alpha and He could see all the way through to Omega, knowing that the hope of all creation would be fulfilled in the earth and in heaven through the blood of His cross.
I believe the body will be unified in one Spirit on the earth before He comes, a giant messenger standing with one foot on the land and one foot on the sea, head in the heavens, clothed in the clouds, uttering 7 thunders with a little book in His hands. A little book bearing the everlasting gospel. The euaggelion. The good news.
There are beautiful feet coming, a generation of servants who will spend it on Him and on beautifying the world with their blood, filling up the sufferings of Jesus Christ, many sons unto glory- and some of them are on this forum, seeing the glory of the Lord from a distance and staying warm by the coals of the fire that He blows on from time to time until a flame busts out of the smoldering glow and the smoke of our prayers for the world and for the ecclesia of God.
There is no cause to fear or fret. He comes on the clouds in thick darkness with thunder rolling and lightning flashing from His right hand. Yet even so He know the numbers of the hairs on every head and sees each sparrow that falls and cares beyond all our reasoning for everyone He ever created out of the womb.
Its just too much to encompass! :o)
Isnt that GREAT!
If I could define it and explain it down to the jot and tittle- HOW SMALL IT WOULD BE!
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
a God who tortures? forever..?
:Chinscratch: surely(?) God can only be perfect, or he too would fade, fall apart, disintegrate, pass away...
(surely?) He created evil (albeit indirectly) by endowing thinking ability to man and angel.. Since He opened that Pandora's box, (surely?) He built the rescue (for all) into His works from the very foundation (beginning).
..."the firstborn of all creation.." and crown..
"The lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow.." (Isaiah 11:7) He will be "all in all" (1 Cor 15:28) "Behold I make all things new.." Rev 21:3 "God is the savior of all.." (1 Tim 4:10) "If I (Jesus) be lifted up from the earth" (on the cross) "I will draw all to me." (Jn 12:32) "All the ends of the earth.. will turn to the Lord and all the families of the nations shall worship/joy before Him." (Ps 22:27)
Our habits of thinking are well worn neuron paths we have fallen into. But "as many as received him, to them gave he power to become a child of God, even to them that believe on his name." (Jn 1:12)
...
refutations (imo:) to verses which are thought to refer to a hell:
gehenna.. to simplify was the city dump where even criminals bodies were burned..
"Jesus descended to the lower part of the earth".. the dust of the grave
The "place of the dead" is still the grave..
"Angels in deepest darkness/tartarus in chains awaiting judgment" are in their despicable state and cannot reverse their course back to perfection, as they are imperfect.. they are therefor locked into judgment, aka, the results.
"Jesus by the Spirit preached to those who awaited while Noah was building the ark.." He reached out to them, not in 'hell' (for what purpose do they imagine? what with the whole forever theme going) but reached out to them via the Spirit while the ark was being built.. (Isn't that a little more logical? :doh: :faint: ) (Silly children, we humans are.)
And the lake of fire.. well, there's not really much to suggest a "forever" in the Hebrew nor the Greek.. Personally, I think some very hard cases may end up there for a duration ("aionian") [In Rev ch 19 the 'big' beast and the false prophet(teaching,theory) who are thrown alive into the lof,are institutions of mankind which are active at the time of Jesus' return, imo, that is:)
Even though all will be saved, the First Resurrection still far surpasses the 2nd - at least for a time, anyway. The 2nd resurrection is of all those who "died, still in their sins" so they will awaken still in their imperfection. Judgment Day, not as joyful, at first, as the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.. banquet, picnic, hoedown, party.. celebration..!
"God is love" 1 Jn 4:8
A Good Prescription for all of us, at any time - to read the writings of the disciple/apostle of love - John. The gospel of John and the books of John.
Who wrote:
"This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all." - 1 John 1:5
"If God be for us who can be against us!?" :dsunny: :banana: :gthumbsup:
Quote(revelation is a fire in my heart and mind for many years now.. man's world is built on sand.. if the whole world repented and turned to YHWH.. would be a different culmination of man's doings upon earth.. but I honestly cannot see it happening)
:HeartThrob:
Awesome !! Amen Marie !
and Thanks John
AMEN !!!! so much more ..........
I find it hard to say in words what really is burning in our hearts already !! so impossible to express .. GOD KNOWS :HeartThrob:
:grouppray:
Awesome post Eaglesway! :dsunny: :cloud9:
Especially,
Quote from: eaglesway on January 26, 2016, 07:44:31 PM
..and one day the heavens will roll back like a scroll and His glory will flood the earth and we will be revealed with Him in glory.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 26, 2016, 07:44:31 PM
I believe the body will be unified in one Spirit on the earth before He comes, a giant messenger standing with one foot on the land and one foot on the sea, head in the heavens, clothed in the clouds, uttering 7 thunders with a little book in His hands. A little book bearing the everlasting gospel. The euaggelion. The good news.
:Chinscratch: hmmm, possibly (to my way of thinking) the "sealing of the foreheads of God's servants" in Rev chapter 7.
...Everyone notices the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel ("you will not
see me again
until you say,
blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD" .."if their falling away is salvation what is their gathering in, but life from the dead?"/resurrection,etc.)
...but folks don't notice the great multitude/crowd "from every tribe, people and nation.." (the gathering in of Israel, aka, sealing the foreheads/minds of Israel follows, for the most part, that of the sealing of the foreheads of God's servants who are gentiles..
because.. last minute stuff.."And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with
the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and" (by then) "have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Rev 12:17, last verse. (Chapter 12 is an insert, as is ch 13, complete on their own.) - "
And the nations gathered them to Armegeddon, behold I come as a thief, and they gather to armegeddon" (gathered in bundles).. Rev 16:14,15,16 "He cometh with His angels.. who gather His elect.. and in fire.."
sealed - 1. great crowd all nations, tongues, peoples..
2. of tribes of Israel
seal on forehead to go with seal on the heart which makes us cry abba father.. I like to think of the seal on the forehead as 100% clarity.. no beam nor splinter in the perception.. no spot nor wrinkle in what we believe/know..
:Peace2: very :goodpost: :goodpost:
case in point -
Quote from: eaglesway on January 26, 2016, 07:44:31 PM
"a giant messenger standing with one foot on the land and one foot on the sea, head in the heavens, clothed in the clouds, uttering 7 thunders with a little book in His hands. A little book bearing the everlasting gospel. The euaggelion. The good news."
UR! ...the 100% good news.. 100% true gospel
P.S.... Rose, God does know! :girlheart: :friendstu:
Marie, EW, Rose :thumbsup: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Hi Kate,
You might find this helpful:
Many think of Gehenna or Lake of Fire as having the same meaning as the orthodox Christian teaching of Hell. Most in this forum recognize that Hell is not a place of endless torment for the wicked. Rather it is simply the grave (from the Greek word Hades meaning the unseen or imperceptible). Interestingly the words Hell, Gehenna and Lake of Fire are not describing the same thing (IMO). They are different and are not interchangeable. Gehenna is not Hell and Hell is not Gehenna! So why did Jesus talk about Gehenna and what did He mean when He used the word in the gospels (good news)? Most Christians think Gehenna is a place of eternal torment in a literal unquenchable fire.
While nearly all "orthodox" authorities of eminence concede that Sheol and Hades do not denote a place of torment, most of those who accept the doctrine of endless torment claim that Gehenna does convey that meaning.
But no such meaning resides in the word, nor is there a shred of evidence that it ever conveyed such an idea until many years after Christ.
The word Gehenna has nothing to do with a place of fiery torment for lost souls as in commonly believed. The world gehenna is not even mentioned in the Old Testament and endless torment is nowhere to be found in its pages.
In the King James Version the translators decided to translate the Greek word Gehenna as Hell or hell fire. In this popular version, as well as others, the Greek word Gehenna which stands for the Hebrew word "GeHinnom is translated twelve times as hell or hell fire?" Does Gehenna fit the description of the Christian hell? NO! Bible students knows that Gehenna, spelled GeHinnom or GayHinnom according to Hebrew, is a real historical and geographical location just southwest off of Jerusalem's walls.
In the Greek New Testament text the Scriptures that mention Gehenna are only found in the first three gospels and in the epistle of James.
Jesus referred to it 11 times and James once? Only Jesus and James mentioned it. So why didn't the Apostles including Paul NOT mention Gehenna in their writings? Did they miss something?
Amazingly, the word is nowhere used in the book of Acts. Luke recorded thirty years of preaching by Paul and other Apostles in the book of Acts, yet the word Gehenna is not used once. Not only does Acts not record any of the teaching on Gehenna, it doesn't even mention the word! Paul said he declared the whole counsel of God".
Christ reintroduces the Old Testament valley of Hinnom into His New Testament teaching, but His use of this Old Testament symbol of evil, idol worship, and slaughter has nothing to do with the definition of a Christian hell.
Whatever Jesus meant when He spoke of Gehenna fire, it certainly was not what the pagans of the past or the Christians of the last five centuries mean by the doctrine of "hell." His teaching on this has much to do with living a Christian life and Judgment. Each time Jesus used the word Gehenna it was in the context of judgement.
The purpose of Jesus was to show how specific and demanding is Christianity and how narrow is the path. God judges the motives of the heart. Christianity, that even if one is contemptuous towards another, he will be judged by Christian principles of love, as "he who hates his brother has already committed murder in his heart."
Of course, those who contend that much of what is written in the Scriptures is figurative rather than literal will be accused of "spiritualizing away" the Scriptures. Certainly the case with Jesus use of the wore Gehenna. Sure many people have said that parables are to be taken literally. What they don't realize is that the words of our Saviour have a deeper spiritual meaning than just taking them as literal. The words Jesus spoke are spiritual.
John_6:63 ... the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
The Twelve Gehenna Passages
The First Use of Gehenna
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire (the Greek - Gehenna of fire).
Jesus did not use the term "hell fire" in this verse, He used the Greek word Gehenna of fire for the first occurrence in the gospels. Should we assume that if someone calls a person a fool the result would be thrown into a literal eternal hell fire of torment? No it does not say that.?
1. Whosoever is angry without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment
2. Whosoever says Raca ( Chaldee - worthless ) shall be in danger of the council ( Sandheidren judgement).
3. Whosoever says you a fool shall be in danger of Gehenna fire.
Please notice that these three instances refer to a judgement situation.
Being angry with someone can result in judgement.
Calling someone worthless can result in judgement.
Calling someone a fool can result in judgement (in this case God's chastising judgment which is Gehenna judgement).
Mans judgement is not the same as Gods judgement. God judges and chastens by spiritual fire. What is spiritual fire you ask? We will look at that in another article. Gehenna is NOT eternal damnation in a fabled hell fire.
Obviously there is a problem with the Christian teaching of eternal hell fire? Does not this statement by Jesus prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that whatever Gehenna fire is, its judgement is not extraordinarily worse than being in danger of a council of judges, or by a local judicial court.
Being angry with anyone, calling a person Raca, calling another a fool, are for all practical purposes almost the same. They are all sins against others and they must be repented of or they will all be brought into appropriate judgements. This is one of the primary lessons we learn when we understand the meaning of Christ's use of Gehenna of fire in the words He spoke. Gehenna fire is a vital ingredient in the process of repenting and overcoming sin, being chastened by God and growing as a Christian. Also we need to realize that Jesus said shall be in danger. He did not say that those judgments would occur. But if one is not mindful of their tongue, they could experience Gehenna fire which is figuratively the torment of the conscience
What if Jesus called someone a fool? Should Jesus be considered as being in danger of Gehenna fire? Well Jesus did call someone a fool. In fact He called the Pharisees fools in 4 different verses. It would be irrational for us to even harbour the thought that Jesus would be in danger of Gehenna fire.
Fire purifies and burns up unwanted character traits likened to "straw, hay, and stubble". Every soul that sinned, and all have sinned, will go through God's chastening, cleansing fire. It is part of the salvation process.
This phrase, "For our God is a consuming fire," (Heb. 12:29) is not literal, so as to contradict the rest of Scripture, but rather is a spiritual statement --the words are literal words, but the statement, the declaration, is spirit. God, as invisible Spirit, spiritually burns up the spiritual wood, hay, straw, and carnality of the human heart, in a similar way that literal fire burns up these physical materials.
This whole Sermon on the Mount which began in Mat. 5:1 and ended in Mat 7:29 is Christ's teaching on how to live an exceedingly higher level of morality and righteousness than was taught prior to the new covenant
It should be noted that Christ's words concerning Gehenna were for the ears of the disciples. This further proves that His admonitions were for His followers and not the general population. His disciples were to learn righteous living and not succumb to the trappings of sin and subsequent Gehenna judgement.
The only other time He mentioned Gehenna was in regards to His rebuking the Pharisees for their hypocrisy.
James 3:5-6
In James 3:5-6 James gives us further insight to a meaning of Gehenna and is consistent with the way Jesus Christ used it in the gospel accounts. Just like Jesus, James uses it as a figure of speech, a metaphor. Nothing at all to do with hell fire.
Jas 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell . (the Greek - Gehenna).
James is using the fire of Gehenna as a metaphor for the destructiveness of sin. Fire burns up and destroys things. And, James is using that metaphor in connection to the body, how that a small part of the body, like the tongue, is like a fire, which can create a larger fire. Just like a small spark can ignite a blazing forest fire.
He tells us that a tongue, a small member of the body is like a fire which can contaminate more of the members of the body A small destructive fire ( the tongue) can ignite a larger fire affecting the entire being -- the heart and mind of a man resulting in sin. Evil thoughts and deeds contaminate and lead to sin.
Seth gave some insight also here:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-threatenings-explained/a-comparison-of-james-and-jesus-concerning-gehenna/msg173598/#msg173598
Jas_3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Jas 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Jas 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
After all, one moment you are verbally ridiculing someone, and soon after you could be plotting his murder. It can happen that way. The end result is sin unless it is caught and repented of before it blossoms into a serious sin.
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Sin brings forth death not hell fire.
Scripture validates the admonition of Christ to repent of sin, avoid Gehenna and thereby ultimately bring many sons to glory.
Mt. 5.29-30 , Mark 9:43, 45, 47 and Mat. 18:9
The next passages are as follows:
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell . (the Greek - Gehenna)..
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell . (the Greek - Gehenna)..
Essentially the same comments that were made regarding Mat 5:22 regarding Gehenna. Gehenna or Gehenna fire being a figure of speech referring to the chastising and corrective process whereby our sins are burned out of us. Nothing to do with an ever burning hell fire! Also the verses below from Mark refer to the same event as Matt. 5:29-30 quoted above.
Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell (the Greek - Gehenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell (the Greek - Gehenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire (the Greek - Gehenna fire):
Also:
Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire (the Greek - Gehenna fire).
Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire (the Greek - Gehenna fire).
Again this cannot be regarded as literal. Truly Jesus is not suggesting that we maim ourselves. He is saying it is better to enter the Christian life destitute of some great worldly advantage, comparable to a right hand, than to live in sin, with all worldly privileges and accolades , and thereby experience that moral death which is a Gehenna of the soul.
If these Scriptures are to be taken literally, and if the consequences are eternal torment, then the church should be full of one-eyed, one-armed, one-footed members who have problems with lustful eyes and hearts, and greed. Extending this thought to the "after-life", we don't think in terms of some people being in heaven with missing eyes and limbs, and some in hell with all of theirs.
Compare James 3:6 to Matthew 5:29-30 which were quoted above, we see that they are saying same thing, with slightly different words. Jesus is warning of DANGER, just like James did. It is telling us why is it needful to cut out a body part (metaphorically) than to venture into sin.
If a body part is on fire, what do you do? You cut it off before the fire spreads. Then, you throw it out into Gehenna Valley (metaphorically) to burn away until it's gone, then you enter life thus avoiding that sin that leads to death.
This is much more profitable than if the tongue fire spreads to the whole body, and you find your whole body aflame in sin, from your feet to your hands and so forth. It's better to stop the offending limb from guiding you into a bigger problem with sin.
Pro_6:27- 28 Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned? Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned?
Mt. 10.28 and Luke 12:4-5
Another occasion Jesus used Gehenna was when he said:
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (the Greek - Gehenna).
Luk 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell (the Greek - Gehenna).; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
A person can kill a another. But after that there is nothing else that person can do to the one killed. But God can destroy the soul and body. So, if God destroys the soul, what happens to the soul that He destroyed? Does it end up in Heaven or the pagan Hell. Neither. Other threads on the topic of Hell proves that man does not have an immortal soul. So what happens to a destroyed soul? Is it destroyed and obliterated, gone for good? Is being destroyed a condition from which there is no salvation? No. It is a temporary condition.
The biggest problem in understanding these verses, is to understand who this is addressed to. The orthodox Church will tell you that it is talking about those who will suffer loss of salvation in the eternal fires of hell. Yet nothing could be further from the truth. This verse was addressed directly to and about the 12 disciples, and is applied to all Christ's followers throughout all generations.
In the gospels that when Christ spoke about Gehenna, He was not referring to an ever burning hell fire for the wicked but rather He used it in a figurative sense for dealing with sin in our lives as a necessary step in the salvation process. Gehenna or Gehenna fire is JUDGEMENT.
Mt. 23.15 and Mt. 23.33
The final time Jesus used gehenna was when He addressed the hypocritical scribes and Pharisees. He said:
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell (the Greek - Gehenna).than yourselves.
This one might seem more severe on the surface than the others, but it's not. In verse 15 Jesus says that they turn their proselytes into children of hell or Gehenna. Think about that.
Did the Pharisees encompass land and sea to make one proselyte and then turn that convert in a "child of Gehenna?" Yes, they did, Jesus said they did. But will that "child of Gehenna" loose salvation and be tortured eternally in some Christian eternal hell of fire because they were brainwashed by these evil men? Of course not. A child of Gehenna is a condition and not a place.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation (Strong's G2920 Greek -krisis meaning judgement) of hell (the Greek - Gehenna).?
Verse 33 tells us how they will be saved. They will be saved by "the damnation of Gehenna." What is this damnation? It is judgment. Check a concordance. They will be saved through judgement which leads to salvation. The word "damnation" is from the Greek word, krisis, and it means "tribunal, justice, accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgement." What specific judgment is Jesus talking about? Why the damnation of judgement of gehenna. This "judgment" is not an evil thing. It is a righteous thing! It's just that the old English word "damnation" sounds so terrible and awful, when it is not.
It can be a stern word, but remember that Jesus is coming to judge the world in "righteousness".
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge (Greek -krisis meaning judgement ) the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; ...
The word judge in this verse is from the same Greek word krisis, and it is not an evil word. We just looked at Matt. 23:23 and saw exactly how fair and good this word krisis/judge is:
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment (Greek -krisis meaning judgement ), mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Many theologians have perverted the simple and righteous words of God. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for not exercising proper krisis/judgment with Israel.
To judge, is to set things right. Men can only make feeble attempts at doing this properly, but when God Almighty sets His hand to "set things right," they will be set right! Just as God has brought many of us to our knees for the sins we have committed, so will God bring this whole world to repentance. It will be emotionally traumatic and painful, but it will be a good thing.
And so Gehenna is clearly seen as a way in which Jesus judges sinners, and specifically, the sins of the eyes, hands, and feet. Gehenna fire is judgment. God's judgement is righteous judgement.
So the words of Jesus concerning Gehenna were spiritual and not literal.
Gehenna under Christ's new covenant is judgment. It is not torture in literal fire. The word should never have been translated "hell," for as we saw, the two words have nothing in common. The literal Gehenna of the Old Testament has long since disappeared. The worms are dead and gone and the fire no longer burns. Under the New Covenant It should be recognized as judgement upon God's people to purify them; to make them holy and blameless; and to make them spiritually mature. Jesus addressed His "Sermon on the Mount" to His disciples. This "Gehenna " is not for the world of unbelieving sinners, but for His Own disciples, and that includes all who are followers of Christ. That truly is good news.
Sorry, I did not format it for easy reading.Joe
:dsunny: :Peace2:
Excellent, comprehensive, balanced.
Quote from: rosered on January 26, 2016, 05:25:35 PM
Quote from: darryl on January 26, 2016, 02:35:40 PM
Quote from: rosered on January 26, 2016, 01:15:17 PM
and JESUS keeping us from the last two woes in the earth and the last two vials poured out those are explained well in REV 9
For me the first resurrection is raised to Life from the dead in Christ and keeping you from those fiery trials that come on the rest of the world
you know, our world has suffered so much..so many awful wars, pestilence, disease and child mortality thru out human history even today..I'm starting to think maybe, just maybe all those terrible judgments in Revelation will not happen cuz God our Daddy will not go thru with it..there's times in the OT God threatens to do stuff then relents..I hope its the same with all the horrors in Revelation..that God will relent.
Hi Daryll ,
When I have considered the reasons the Lord Jesus Christ come as grace as a "gift" to us from God in His wisdom
He come to give a more abundant spiritual life in my opinion .. and put an end to the works/ fruits of satan and destroy Babylon in one Day /1000 yr reign
I believe Revelations is all about the works of God though Jesus Christ destroying both
that warring is spiritual wickedness in high places
To me that starts and has a beginning in the haughty and high minded thoughts that rise up against God whom is LOVE and God is a consuming fire but there is no death in HIM AT ALL
Death is all we know and call it life with eyes though the carnal mind perceiving it , we see in the news murders daily over money and power , loved ones die , there are all kinds of evil being constantly done to the unsuspecting and good natured souls just trying to help , killing just to be killing
as in the days of Noah JESUS SAID HE WOULD COME , re intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5)
not water but fire this time , Jesus was baptised and kindled that fire in the earth in LUKE 12 ;4949 "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed!
2 Peter 3 Christ's Coming Judgment
...6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. I see the Revelation in the 1000 year reign as that ONE DAY OF THE LORD to destroy the works of satan and Babylon , because John foretold that He was in the Spirit on the LORDS DAY and saw all this happening and going down and the write it down for us to know as well ...
1 John 3 ;8
I can very well see that the works of satan would be delt with in Jesus Christ the WORD OF GOD made flesh , in our flesh
7Little children, make sure no one deceives you;
the one who practices righteousness is righteous,
just as He is righteous;
8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God....
This seed of Christ is the only thing that can endure the sodom and Gomorrah lake of fire and brimstone effect
If you would read that in Gen 19 what was the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah ?
, those men with men acts against the 2 angels messengers of rev 11 witnesses to warn of the coming destruction same as Romans 1 we have the HOLY WORD SPEAK men marrying men come on ?? women marring women , as the days of Noah , golly does it get any more perverse than that even going against nature /beast lying with intimately in thoughts of perversion and acts of violence Leviticus 18:22 much less GODS WORD ...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+19 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+19)
We are so conditioned to the death mode and carnal nature , how can the HOLY SPIRIT LIVE amongst such things ?!
Though JESUS CHRIST Whom has overcome the world already and that seed remains , Sodom /Gomorrah is our example of those things to come
yayaa, that's a kool idea..that all the momentous things that happen in Revelation are metaphorical not literal...lotsa 'hell fire and damnation' preachers use Revelation to teach God is so wrathful, furious and vengeful...how wrong they are !
Beautiful, joeteekay!
Thank you so much!
:sunny:
D.
I too have enjoyed your post very much so Joe !!! :thumbsup: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Many great insights !!! an can see how the 12 disciples/students at Jesus feet would increase to an innumerable measure !!!
to fill all the ends of the earth ..
I am going to read it in more depth
God bless you
Quoteyayaa, that's a kool idea..that all the momentous things that happen in Revelation are metaphorical not literal...lotsa 'hell fire and damnation' preachers use Revelation to teach God is so wrathful, furious and vengeful...how wrong they are !
I don't think that at all daryll ,,,,,,,as long as both covenants are in effect in the earth , We have the I kill/ judgment under the old law to be fulfilled in us still and I make alive / in Christ by the grace of God ..
and Babylon is still very much Babylon that some must still come out of Her my people unless you receive her plagues , those 7 are for the mystery of God to be completed in ,
It never says revealed at any time , but completed and I am one who sees this as a continual deliverance message as long as God desires it to be so ...
To me
time is a human element, that the carnal mind ''hold on to'' making many liars manifested , that has no spiritual significance what so ever
as to Gods will being done ..
It has always been by faith , not by sight .... man does not call the shots ,,, When Jesus said He come to save mens lives , He meant it , When it was written and spoken back in that day , it was Gods will none should perish , GODS patience cannot be measured in time or any thought
It has always been the SAME ONE SPIRIT and always will be ONE and the SAME SPIRIT ... that has never ever changed throughout eternity , for the lack of a better Word ... but to us in our small space of time and urgency and being in the here and now it is very significant to us
This is the only variable difference to me ...
It was never quantity of life it was the quality of Life , Gods mercy was to shorten the days of our flesh and suffering by Adams day to this day , 930 years was a day to the Lord , see what I mean ?
and 70 years 80 by grace is our DAY , to the Lord ...
Most don't understand this part and I did not either , til the Holy Spirit placed it in my heart ,, I am one who is really big on being taught of the Holy Spirit and that waiting on it is the hardest part to me .. When running to far ahead I stumble and fall EVERY TIME :sigh: so humbling and weakened , so is waiting on the LORD for His help again to be lifted out of the pits of despair , what is not of faith is sin / error and missing the mark to that narrow path that leads to life in the Spirit of Christ ...
so simple and yet difficult / pressing in the same manner ... We get to ''feel'' experience everything and that is a lot of ''all things '' ....
God bless you
Quote from: eaglesway on January 26, 2016, 07:44:31 PM
When I was a young man of God, full of zeal and vision.......[ http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/christ's-use-of-gehenna/msg194890/#msg194890 ]
i like this post john..interesting things to think on... :thumbsup:
:thumbsup: and beautiful things,too!
:cloud9: Really beautiful stuff coming forth. :thumbsup:
Just wanted to comment about the Jews belief because I'm in a body of them and a few weeks months back I went through a communal prayer with them that they do for those that may/may not be in that year of judgment following death. It's called the Kaddish, and because Jesus was raised with such, some of the prayers like this that they do at particular times of the year, I believe He too would have prayed, because you cannot fault them for preserving what they received for millenia. Blessings....
he who is merciful..will be shown mercy,he who refreshes others..will be refreshed.
Amen to all I loved it when I read that Daniel prayed for his sins against God and for the sins of His people , I see this as a priesthood type and shadow
and was so blessed by this , in my foolish youth I only prayed for my sins and family protection lol , and the Word of God says pray for your enemies
, I was so silly and think how in the world did God put up with such selfish foolishness ??? :flowerred:
My grandfather always prayed , for the children and the children's children and the children to come .... I never forgot that and wondered if it was not for all of Gods children
Daniel 9
20Now while I was speaking and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel,
and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God in behalf of the holy mountain of my God,
21 while I was still speaking in prayer, then the man Gabriel,
whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering.
Loving everyone where they are at , It is the Lord whom will finish what He has started perfectly and completely
not by power or by might but By His Spirit Zech 4
...5So the angel who was speaking with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?"
And I said, "No, my lord."
6Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.
7What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of "Grace, grace to it!"'"
Jesus Christ is not only risen He is reigning being the Lord of the dead and living :HeartThrob:
Mark 1619So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.
20And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.
And they promptly reported all these instructions to Peter and his companions. And after that, Jesus Himself sent out through them from east to west the sacred
and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation.