1 Cor. 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
According to those that believe in free will, those that say "Lord Lord" but did not enter into Heaven used to be saved but lose their salvation because they could not have called Jesus 'Lord' except by the Holy Spirit. How can this be addressed?
Edit: I think I have an answer but I want to ask you first. My answer is that God works through the unsaved and even sends his Spirit to them. Caiaphas, even as he was plotting to murder Jesus, was prophecizing (John 11:49-53). Judas Iscariot had a ministry like the apostles. Yet, according to Jesus, He never loss any of the ones the Father gave him, which infers that Judas was never one of the ones given to Him by the Father.
What do you think?
IMO. John the Bptist had the Holy spirit in him since before birth(as stated in the scriptures and before Jesus birth) While Jesus was on the earth, I don't believe anyone else received the holy spirit until the day of pentecost, when even the apostles were radically changed.
The fact that the Holy Spirit "uses" people to do his will does not necessarily mean that the Holy Spirit is living and residing in them.
All through the old testament, God, Holy Spirit, used good and evil people to attain his ends.
Quote from: CrossoverManiac on May 22, 2013, 04:23:25 AM
1 Cor. 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
According to those that believe in free will, those that say "Lord Lord" but did not enter into Heaven used to be saved but lose their salvation because they could not have called Jesus 'Lord' except by the Holy Spirit. How can this be addressed?
Edit: I think I have an answer but I want to ask you first. My answer is that God works through the unsaved and even sends his Spirit to them. Caiaphas, even as he was plotting to murder Jesus, was prophecizing (John 11:49-53). Judas Iscariot had a ministry like the apostles. Yet, according to Jesus, He never loss any of the ones the Father gave him, which infers that Judas was never one of the ones given to Him by the Father.
What do you think?
Keep in mind as to when it was written and who Jesus was talking to.
(1Cor.) was after the cross. Matt. was before. Law still existed before Christ was crucified. Works and grace. All of it though was according to God's plan.
CHB
well,as all men have been partakers of the tokogae....the good in them is of God..for Jesus said..only God is Good
the good samaritian..may not know what he worships..but any goodness in him..such as the act of compaassion
is of God. Eternal life is knowing the Father and the son. He does not know them because He did not call them
men may have called them. Paul testifies of fals-apostles robbers and theives..who preaach out of contention and cause
divisions,sects. Many are called but few are chosen...James 3;14 ;16............ jealousy and contentiousness in your heart,
Yet God said...'I will make you jealous by a nation that is not a nation" to Israel...and thus Judaizers and teachers
of the law/circumcision..come and caused trouble with Paul and his...super-fine apostles..'certain men' Jude also spoke
of these 'certain men' natural men..or the carnal minded ministries we see out there..that have not the spirit..but
make the natural churches..that do not understand the spiritual..and twist things. their a dime a dozen out there....
they know nothing..they understand nothing...they mimic and mime the scriptures and the gospel..they are blind
leading the blind...always learning..but never coming to the accurate knowledge. IT TAKES THE SPIRIT...
to know and understand the things of God. There will be aa lot of people at the resurrection that thought they were
doing God a service..only to find out different...but,He will give them a new spirit in their heaart..a new mind and new
celestial body...then they will hear wht they had not heard before..and see what they had not seen.......He will seperate
the baloney from His truth,cleanse and purify..that they make an offering of Praise to His name..instaed of Blasphemy
the spirit of presumptousness is the same as withch craft[Babylons majic spell] and she has called many
Quote from: CrossoverManiac on May 22, 2013, 04:23:25 AM
1 Cor. 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
According to those that believe in free will, those that say "Lord Lord" but did not enter into Heaven used to be saved but lose their salvation because they could not have called Jesus 'Lord' except by the Holy Spirit. How can this be addressed?
Edit: I think I have an answer but I want to ask you first. My answer is that God works through the unsaved and even sends his Spirit to them. Caiaphas, even as he was plotting to murder Jesus, was prophecizing (John 11:49-53). Judas Iscariot had a ministry like the apostles. Yet, according to Jesus, He never loss any of the ones the Father gave him, which infers that Judas was never one of the ones given to Him by the Father.
What do you think?
I no longer believe in free will. I think only God has free will. I think the rest of us are compelled to act by unseen spiritual forces. It is a cause and effect thing.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil013.html
Quote from: CrossoverManiac on May 22, 2013, 04:23:25 AM
1 Cor. 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
According to those that believe in free will, those that say "Lord Lord" but did not enter into Heaven used to be saved but lose their salvation because they could not have called Jesus 'Lord' except by the Holy Spirit. How can this be addressed?
Edit: I think I have an answer but I want to ask you first. My answer is that God works through the unsaved and even sends his Spirit to them. Caiaphas, even as he was plotting to murder Jesus, was prophecizing (John 11:49-53). Judas Iscariot had a ministry like the apostles. Yet, according to Jesus, He never loss any of the ones the Father gave him, which infers that Judas was never one of the ones given to Him by the Father.
What do you think?
IMO "Losing salvation" is a religious idea injected thru generations of ET frame of reference theology.
What Jesus says never refers to losing salvation. It says, "I never knew you".
"I never knew you", in my opinion, means, "I never had continual intimate fellowship with you- you did not abide in me".
Remember in John 15 Jesus says He is the vine and we are the branches, if we do not abide(engage in fellowship with Him on an ongoing basis to seek His face and dwell in His presence and love- we begin to dry up, eventually becoming deadwood.) we go into the fire to be burned.
This is terrifying terminology, and unlike many in UR(sorry :o) I believe it is meant to be. We just don t want to be placed in the fire for correction and reformation when we can reap such amazing benefits in our soul and our present life by continuing to press into Jesus. "If you continue in my word you shall kno the truth and the truth shall set you free."
The end of all this is not that we lose our salvation. It is that we enter kolassis/correction.
For example, 1 Cor 3:10-17 talks about gold, silver, precious stone versus wood hay and stubble. If a man builds junk on the foundation, the DAY will reveal it. The DAY is the fire. It burns up the darkness, the wood hay etc- but it clearly says that the person themselves shall be saved but they will lose their reward.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 24, 2013, 08:14:45 PM
Quote from: CrossoverManiac on May 22, 2013, 04:23:25 AM
1 Cor. 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
According to those that believe in free will, those that say "Lord Lord" but did not enter into Heaven used to be saved but lose their salvation because they could not have called Jesus 'Lord' except by the Holy Spirit. How can this be addressed?
Edit: I think I have an answer but I want to ask you first. My answer is that God works through the unsaved and even sends his Spirit to them. Caiaphas, even as he was plotting to murder Jesus, was prophecizing (John 11:49-53). Judas Iscariot had a ministry like the apostles. Yet, according to Jesus, He never loss any of the ones the Father gave him, which infers that Judas was never one of the ones given to Him by the Father.
What do you think?
IMO "Losing salvation" is a religious idea injected thru generations of ET frame of reference theology.
What Jesus says never refers to losing salvation. It says, "I never knew you".
"I never knew you", in my opinion, means, "I never had continual intimate fellowship with you- you did not abide in me".
Remember in John 15 Jesus says He is the vine and we are the branches, if we do not abide(engage in fellowship with Him on an ongoing basis to seek His face and dwell in His presence and love- we begin to dry up, eventually becoming deadwood.) we go into the fire to be burned.
This is terrifying terminology, and unlike many in UR(sorry :o) I believe it is meant to be. We just don t want to be placed in the fire for correction and reformation when we can reap such amazing benefits in our soul and our present life by continuing to press into Jesus. "If you continue in my word you shall kno the truth and the truth shall set you free."
The end of all this is not that we lose our salvation. It is that we enter kolassis/correction.
For example, 1 Cor 3:10-17 talks about gold, silver, precious stone versus wood hay and stubble. If a man builds junk on the foundation, the DAY will reveal it. The DAY is the fire. It burns up the darkness, the wood hay etc- but it clearly says that the person themselves shall be saved but they will lose their reward.
I agree. Correction can come hard for us now because sometimes we have to swallow our pride, but we are sealed for deliverance.
"All scripture is inspired by God, and is beneficial for teaching, for exposure, for correction, for discipline in righteousness, that the man of God may be equipped, fitted out for every good act." (2 Timothy 3:16,17)
"Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. Not according to flesh are they walking, but according to spirit, for the spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus frees you from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:1,2)
"For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor messengers, nor sovereignties, nor the present, nor what is impending, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord." (Romans 8:38,39)
"in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will, that we should be for the laud of His glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ. In Whom you also -- on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation -- in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise (which is an earnest of the enjoyment of our allotment, to the deliverance of that which has been procured) for the laud of His glory!" (Ephesians 1:11-14)
"And do not be causing sorrow to the holy spirit of God by which you are sealed for the day of deliverance." (Ephesians 4:30)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil023.html
Should one believe in free will, one accepts that he has a free will (without any cause) and it would be impossible for that one to believe that The Lord is the all in all.
Man is given free choice, choice is choosing an option from a caused circumstance and The Lord is the creator of all caused circumstances.
Col. 1: 16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,
17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him.
That verse does not imply free will in any way. There are other verses that state clearly that God is in control of our fate, not man.
Quote from: Eduard on June 02, 2013, 06:50:08 PM
That verse does not imply free will in any way. There are other verses that state clearly that God is in control of our fate, not man.
I agree, the verse was given not to imply that man has free will, just the opposite. :dsunny:
I cannot see either verse as proof text for either pole of the discussion.
Sorry, I don't see it either.
Sorry. :dsunny:
I'm searching can anyone show me in the Bible where man was given or received free will? I feel it must have been in Genesis, somewhere in chapter 2. Thank you.
Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Deut 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
2 Samuel 24:12
Go and say unto David, Thus saith the Lord, I offer thee three things; choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee.
2 Chronicles 30:8
Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves unto the Lord, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified for ever: and serve the Lord your God, that the fierceness of his wrath may turn away from you.
Isaiah 65:12
Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not
Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Romans 12:1-3
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Hebrews 4:1-13 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
"As I swore in My wrath,
They shall not enter My rest,"
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works"; and again in this passage, "They shall not enter My rest." Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
"Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts."
For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
Acts 17:26-31 He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
While I do not believe Arminianism or Calvinism, or any other extreme version of the "free-will version sovereignity" debate express anywhere near accurately the complicated issue of man's will versus God's will- or the measure in which God allows man to choose, to yield, or not to yield and to hold man accountable for it in a measure as well, there are some verses that an honest person can read as God having given man a stewardship over his will, his responses to the grace of God and the temporal consequences of those decisions- both as individuals and communites of people, such as cities, nations and local churches. The way I see it is, man is neither totally "free" in his will, nor is he totally "free" from his will and the consequences of how he excercizes it.
Only God knows the how and why of it all. :o)
Romans 12:32-36
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
Now we have verses for the cause for man's choice His Will. Thank you.
Yes Micah, I absolutely agree with that. God is the cause for all things. Whatever is allowed is allowed by Him. Whatever is restrained is restrained by Him. This is how we get to know Him.
Thanks, but He does not allow, He does it all. :dsunny:
yes, I kno how you feel about that, but IMO He allows much, and grace includes the freedom to choose the wrong thing and still be loved, and so we grow as disciples, and sons, or not. :Peace2:
:iagree: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: eaglesway on June 03, 2013, 07:13:42 PM
yes, I kno how you feel about that, but IMO He allows much, and grace includes the freedom to choose the wrong thing and still be loved, and so we grow as disciples, and sons, or not. :Peace2:
Never quite thought of it that way. :thumbsup:
I think that's why one thing we all understand is that of all things, grace is most beautiful :o)
Hello CrossoverManiac,
We most certainly do have "free will", as God gives us the choice of whether we want to be in the Kingdom of God - or not:
http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm (http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm)
Either way, we are all still "saved".
I hope this helps.
Ken
(http://ernestlmartin.com/images/kogpng.png)
So called "free will" is nothing but works.
CHB
We get hung up on terminology that doesnt even mean the same things in our separate minds when we hear them or say them. I do not believe in a "totally free will". God is intervening and moderating in evry life evil or good. He is using our actions in accordance with His grand design in ways to great for us to fathom. He is the one "who causes all things to work in accordance with the counsel of His will" However, I do not believe God "programs" this. His way is, imo, higher than that. It is clear to me from the scriptures that God has given us a qualified freedom, a stewardship lets say- over our lives, gifts, time, etc. It is a growth in discipleship and sonship responsibility in which we must be engaged and accountable. Through it He is leading us into an even greater freedom, the glorious freedom of the children of God(into which the entire creation shall be introduced and enjoy in the consummation when God is all in all).
The way I see it- it will not be until "the end "(1 cor 15:28) that all will be "free"(Romans 8:18-25). Their wills totally in harmony with the I AM and therefore both TOTALLY SUBMITTED AND TOTALLY FREE AT THE SAME TIME.
I think its a shame that religious button pushing makes it so difficult to discuss the subject matter, because it is brilliant material and continually illuminating- but, so be it.
Quote from: eaglesway
God is intervening and moderating in evry life evil or good. He is using our actions in accordance with His grand design in ways to great for us to fathom. He is the one "who causes all things to work in accordance with the counsel of His will"
I think its a shame that religious button pushing makes it so difficult to discuss the subject matter, because it is brilliant material and continually illuminating- but, so be it.
Hi eaglesway, I agree. :dsunny:
CHB
Hey CHB :o) Just got back from Boone Sunday. Next time we'll get that cup o joe :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on June 05, 2013, 06:05:33 AM
We get hung up on terminology that doesnt even mean the same things in our separate minds when we hear them or say them. I do not believe in a "totally free will". God is intervening and moderating in evry life evil or good. He is using our actions in accordance with His grand design in ways to great for us to fathom. He is the one "who causes all things to work in accordance with the counsel of His will" However, I do not believe God "programs" this. His way is, imo, higher than that. It is clear to me from the scriptures that God has given us a qualified freedom, a stewardship lets say- over our lives, gifts, time, etc. It is a growth in discipleship and sonship responsibility in which we must be engaged and accountable. Through it He is leading us into an even greater freedom, the glorious freedom of the children of God(into which the entire creation shall be introduced and enjoy in the consummation when God is all in all).
The way I see it- it will not be until "the end "(1 cor 15:28) that all will be "free"(Romans 8:18-25). Their wills totally in harmony with the I AM and therefore both TOTALLY SUBMITTED AND TOTALLY FREE AT THE SAME TIME.
I think its a shame that religious button pushing makes it so difficult to discuss the subject matter, because it is brilliant material and continually illuminating- but, so be it.
:iagree: :iagree: I believe God endowed thinking ability... which has within it, the ability to make some choices in our little lives.. it is by no means 'free will' for we are certainly in our imperfect state, by no means "free" and even what choices in life we have are very much limited.. not like the sky is the limit for us.. choose whatever we will.. hardly! but we do have the ability to think, reason, ponder, choose.. all of it very limited however, especially compared to the Great I AM! :laughing7: But i daresay, had He wanted robots or simple creatures who were fully programmed to do all His will.. well, obviously that wasn't or isn't what He's after.. (is creating)
blessings to all!
glenda marie
Quote from: CrossoverManiac on May 22, 2013, 04:23:25 AM
1 Cor. 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
According to those that believe in free will, those that say "Lord Lord" but did not enter into Heaven used to be saved but lose their salvation because they could not have called Jesus 'Lord' except by the Holy Spirit. How can this be addressed?
Edit: I think I have an answer but I want to ask you first. My answer is that God works through the unsaved and even sends his Spirit to them. Caiaphas, even as he was plotting to murder Jesus, was prophecizing (John 11:49-53). Judas Iscariot had a ministry like the apostles. Yet, according to Jesus, He never loss any of the ones the Father gave him, which infers that Judas was never one of the ones given to Him by the Father.
What do you think?
About losing salvation, I think that's impossible beyond a certain covenant level.
Saying "Lord Lord" can mean to things from me:
a] Just lies. Example a TV preacher that gives nice sermons to fund his 3rd house.
b] No good works to back things up. It's great speaking God's word but it doesn't sound very honest while slaughtering innocent people. Hypocrites.
Quote from: CHB on June 05, 2013, 04:11:56 PM
Quote from: eaglesway
God is intervening and moderating in evry life evil or good. He is using our actions in accordance with His grand design in ways to great for us to fathom. He is the one "who causes all things to work in accordance with the counsel of His will"
I think its a shame that religious button pushing makes it so difficult to discuss the subject matter, because it is brilliant material and continually illuminating- but, so be it.
Hi eaglesway, I agree. :dsunny:
CHB
:dsunny:
Quote from: marie glen on June 13, 2013, 06:56:29 PM
I believe God endowed thinking ability... which has within it, the ability to make some choices in our little lives.. it is by no means 'free will' for we are certainly in our imperfect state, by no means "free" and even what choices in life we have are very much limited.. not like the sky is the limit for us.. choose whatever we will.. hardly! but we do have the ability to think, reason, ponder, choose.. all of it very limited however, especially compared to the Great I AM! :laughing7: But i daresay, had He wanted robots or simple creatures who were fully programmed to do all His will.. well, obviously that wasn't or isn't what He's after.. (is creating)
blessings to all!
glenda marie
Very interesting observation marie. May I humbly add 'observe'?
I've come to agree with C.S. Lewis that the universe is a class-room and not a place wherein all our hedonistic desires are supposed to be met. What I have come to see is that free-will as it's been bantered about for years in my life is nothing more then a once believed notion. I think one of the things The Father wants is for us to understand things like cause and effect. I imagine myself sometimes in a vehicle (perhaps a school bus) travelling through life and out the window I see things; a little while later I see the consequences of those things. As a result I learn, and eventually understand.
If those things didn't happen, I wouldn't have seen how they turned out. This is true for my own actions as well. Paul talks about not doing what he wanted and doing what he didn't. Could it be that this is the way it is so that Paul could truly understand the nature of himself and his actions? Just a thought.
What does "free will" mean to you?
Here is the way I understand it:
If person Q having made choice X at time T in circumstances C, could have chosen not-X at time T in circumstances C, then he has free will.
Quote from: Timios on December 05, 2013, 11:20:05 PM
What does "free will" mean to you?
Here is the way I understand it:
If person Q having made choice X at time T in circumstances C, could have chosen not-X at time T in circumstances C, then he has free will.
Great question Timios. What does Free Will mean to me?
Firstly, if Father "willed" everything that we know, then free or not, I cannot. Now if "will" means "choice" then arguably this is not nearly as free as we pretend it is. Case in point: how many times has a book, movie, music or even a dish been dismissed because something in our past caused not even a chance. How free is that? Especially, if sometime in the future, what ever it is, is tried and it is Loved!!
Also, on a very pragmatic level. I can choose to jump 18ft high or hold my breath for 20mins, but my "choice" has constraints that I cannot overcome. Even when we make choices through out the day, most fall within our comfort zone.
But Jesus taught through Spirit and as such if one looks at freedom through the eyes of spirit, who really wants to be free??? Don't we all want to be One with Father and all else? I do :cloud9:
Just my thoughts,
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Timios on December 05, 2013, 11:20:05 PM
What does "free will" mean to you?
Pick from a limited set of options God gave you.
Quote from: VineBranch on September 01, 2013, 07:27:57 PM
Quote from: marie glen on June 13, 2013, 06:56:29 PM
I believe God endowed thinking ability... which has within it, the ability to make some choices in our little lives.. it is by no means 'free will' for we are certainly in our imperfect state, by no means "free" and even what choices in life we have are very much limited.. not like the sky is the limit for us.. choose whatever we will.. hardly! but we do have the ability to think, reason, ponder, choose.. all of it very limited however, especially compared to the Great I AM! :laughing7: But i daresay, had He wanted robots or simple creatures who were fully programmed to do all His will.. well, obviously that wasn't or isn't what He's after.. (is creating)
blessings to all!
glenda marie
Very interesting observation marie. May I humbly add 'observe'?
I've come to agree with C.S. Lewis that the universe is a class-room and not a place wherein all our hedonistic desires are supposed to be met. What I have come to see is that free-will as it's been bantered about for years in my life is nothing more then a once believed notion. I think one of the things The Father wants is for us to understand things like cause and effect. I imagine myself sometimes in a vehicle (perhaps a school bus) travelling through life and out the window I see things; a little while later I see the consequences of those things. As a result I learn, and eventually understand.
If those things didn't happen, I wouldn't have seen how they turned out. This is true for my own actions as well. Paul talks about not doing what he wanted and doing what he didn't. Could it be that this is the way it is so that Paul could truly understand the nature of himself and his actions? Just a thought.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 06, 2013, 09:17:43 AM
Quote from: Timios on December 05, 2013, 11:20:05 PM
What does "free will" mean to you?
Pick from a limited set of options God gave you.
Amen guys! Even if we did have totally free will, it too surely, would be imperfect! Very limited.. due to the law of sin and death (imo, imperfection)
And, also, we do not have any free will, or even choice when it comes to our eternal destiny (as some would call it) for the scripture seems to me to clearly say that God chooses whom He will.. one as a vessel for noble use (enlightenment/salvation in this life, the "elect") and another vessel for ignoble use (not saved during this life, I would presume for an excellent reason having to do with God's plan, er lesson plan! (Imo, this drama, of this life, we all in heaven and earth, are watching.)
And too.. what is said to be the best teacher? :smile:
Quote from: Timios on December 05, 2013, 11:20:05 PM
What does "free will" mean to you?
Here is the way I understand it:
If person Q having made choice X at time T in circumstances C, could have chosen not-X at time T in circumstances C, then he has free will.
I distinguish the term "WILL" from "CHOICE." Here is how I define those terms:
WILL: the capacity to make a choice
CHOICE: the selection of one option over other options
A FREE will, therefore is the ability to make a choice completely free of influence, which I do not believe is real. Since the term "free will" is not a scripture term with a scripture definition, it falls upon each person to determine what they believe the term means, which is why we see so many arguments about free will where people are arguing but not realizing they have different definitions of the term, and nobody can agree on a single set definition on which to base an argument.
I don't like to get into long discussions about free will. I will simply say that from the body of scripture I see, the common Orthodox view of "free will" - as in God as a responsive agent to man's choices - is not correct.
The one thing I keep in mind is that God is invisible. So, even if you don't see his hand at work in even your smallest choices, does not mean it's not there.
Amen Seth, our entire lives are the product of influence. Even when called by the Spirit, unless our reasoning comes directly from the heart and not the mind, we are influenced still.
We believe we are free, but really we are but a product of our mind and all that has molded it.
Just how free is that? Is it any wonder why Jesus said to let go of every thing and lean on him. The burdens we carry are crippling and we solider on unaware
Father knows this and LOVE us still. :HeartThrob:
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
If you continue in my word, you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.
I am the way, the truth and the life.
For freedom, Christ has set you free! Why then be subject again to a yoke of bondage?
The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it, but you don't know where it comes from or where it is going.....so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.
Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formeth('yatsar') the man--dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.
Gen 2:21 And Jehovah God causeth a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he sleepeth, and He taketh one of his ribs, and closeth up flesh in its stead.
Gen 2:22 And Jehovah God buildeth('banah'-make) up the rib which He hath taken out of the man into a woman, and bringeth her in unto the man;
Gen 2:23 and the man saith, `This is the proper step! bone of my bone, and flesh of my flesh!' for this it is called Woman, for from a man hath this been taken;
*****Rom 7:18 for I have known that there doth not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh, good: for to will is present with me, and to work that which is right I do not find, Rom 7:19 for the good that I will, I do not; but the evil that I do not will, this I practise. Rom 7:20 And if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it, but the sin that is dwelling in me. *****
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Knowing this, can the thought that man has "free will" be put to rest?
The Lord God, through His Wisdom, by way of the dust of the ground when He formed man, man became FLESH, so I can see how Gen. 2:17, the warning, would be by design.
It seems man's thinking causes man to take part in the responsibility for what is called "the fall" a step(the first), which the Lord God has taken full responsibility for, and that being (Gen. 3:5-6)
In the above thought is there any place that assumes or speculates that man was given a free will? That man's will had a hand in what was planned for the Lord's purpose is obtuse.
Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
PS. How can any UR consider man having a free will, when Paul states 1Ti 2:3 for this is right and acceptable before God our Saviour,
1Ti 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
:dsunny:
What has this to do with man having free will? "the wind(the Lord God) blows where IT wills...." there you have the WILL, nothing to do with me as man. Or what don't I understand? I do not understand what you post EW. I am one of the slow ones.
"If you continue in my word, you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.
I am the way, the truth and the life.
For freedom, Christ has set you free! Why then be subject again to a yoke of bondage?
The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it, but you don't know where it comes from or where it is going.....so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 22, 2013, 07:26:59 AM
What has this to do with man having free will? "the wind(the Lord God) blows where IT wills...." there you have the WILL, nothing to do with me as man. Or what don't I understand? I do not understand what you post EW. I am one of the slow ones.
Oh don't be so hard on yourself Micah. Let's put something to rest now. Free Will to you and I is way different than Free Will to Father. We were given freedom to think, reason, love, hate and for that matter decide what to eat when we are hungry. There is a NOT HUGE difference between us having TOTAL freedom in choosing what we want (based on our own choice boundries) and Father KNOWNG what we will do, when and why. Father knows each of us better than we will ever. He does not need to direct our every thought, word or action. We are free to do what we must. What we must? I will touch on this in a bit. Father has said, that we cannnot even direct our steps; many think therefore each step is directed by Father. This is a fallacy on many levels; however, what Father means is that NO one can come to Jesus until Father opens ones heart. In short, man can walk and say what they want, yet Jesus will say: "I do not know you!"
So here FREE WILL takes a nose dive, we are free on so many fronts but not that one. It is all Father. :HeartThrob:
"If you continue in my word, you will know that truth and the truth will set you free"
Free from what? To "will" what we want? Not likely. To be free from debt, sickness, bullying or sadness? Yes and No. Certainly miracles can happen and without reason, whatever was wrong is fixed. We tend to like miracles such as this, but the true miracle is even greater.
Being set free: is being free of fear to the point of KNOWING everything will be okay. Knowing that HELL is a hoax; bodily death is not the same as spirit, knowing that loved ones (their spirit) will be fully part of you again. Perhaps the greatest Freedom is being FREE of the person you were, being born again so to speak with a Spirit of peace and love that words cannot explain.
Being Free is being able to Thank Father for everything, seeing nothing as a hardship and everything as an opportunity to show ones Love to Father. All of which brings greater peace and contentment than any temporal miracle might bring.
Gosh I hope this helps a little.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
My thought was on free will not free choice. :dsunny:
Micah, you are not slow by any means :o) We just see a huge gem from different perspectives. I am communicating what I see. You are communicating what you see. Neither of us(nor anyone else) can fathom the whole depth of the many faceted wisdom of God, "For who has known the mind of the Lord?"
I believe that God is setting everyone free, "For freedom Christ has set you free". I believe that freedom comes as we grow "in the spirit"- becoming filled up with love. This is how I see the predestination of God( for all who He forknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son"). I believe this is the glorious liberty of the children of God, and that the whole universe will be brought into it.
For me, wind and water describe it perfectly. We are being transformed into wind- totally free. We are being transformed into water, totally immersed in the universal oneness of God, yet, as individual drops, totally self aware and aware of each other.
I do not believe God controls everything, as much as I believe He has set in motion the parameters of the process by which He is transforming all things- Behold I make all things new.
I do believe God is intimately involved every step along the way with each one and all together. I also believe He knows who we are before we are born and what we will become and when.
I also don't think I see this clearly. These are my misty opinions based on my present revelation. I only share them so that they can be resisted, refined, perhaps even overturned ;o)
I just don't think God can set us free if we have NO freedom. He is preparing us for stewardship(ministry of reconciliation, glorious liberty of the sons of God) as He transforms us in love. As partakers of the divine nature we grow in the measure of what He can trust us with, and reflect more clearly the image of His Son.
When love is perfected, freedom will be complete. Perfect love is completely free because it can do no harm and does only well in the joy of its own union and harmony.
You shall know the truth(I am the way the truth and the life), and the truth shall make you free :o).
How the freedom we are being given and the will fo God over all things work together in the inner workings of the wisdom of God and the mind of Christ? I would not presume to say I understand all of that. :o)
"I do not believe God controls everything, as much as I believe He has set in motion the parameters of the process by which He is transforming all things- Behold I make all things new.
I do believe God is intimately involved every step along the way with each one and all together. I also believe He knows who we are before we are born and what we will become and when."
How can He not be in control of everything, if He is "transforming all things" and make all things new? And if God " is intimately involved every step along the way with each one and all together.."
And " He knows who we are before we are born and what we will become and when."
How does that not make Him the cause for each and every choice and turn man makes?
My thought is about how did the teaching of man having free will get into the picture? Where is the evidence that man was given free will?
I am not speaking of the born from above man, for he has the mind of Christ and yes the "wind" then is the Motivator. Man's will after he has been drawn, his will becomes that of the Father, man still falls but gets up in joy because of the Blood, but I am speaking of free will as something man was given, where is that evidence?
Seems to me that man desires this free will, so that he can take some of the responsibility of what the ALMIGHTY takes full responsibility for....His creation and all it's workings.
I quoted all of this EW as it speaks the words of my heart through the glory of Christ, better than I could. THANK-YOU!!!!Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: eaglesway on December 22, 2013, 07:08:20 PM
Micah, you are not slow by any means :o) We just see a huge gem from different perspectives. I am communicating what I see. You are communicating what you see. Neither of us(nor anyone else) can fathom the whole depth of the many faceted wisdom of God, "For who has known the mind of the Lord?"
I believe that God is setting everyone free, "For freedom Christ has set you free". I believe that freedom comes as we grow "in the spirit"- becoming filled up with love. This is how I see the predestination of God( for all who He forknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son"). I believe this is the glorious liberty of the children of God, and that the whole universe will be brought into it.
For me, wind and water describe it perfectly. We are being transformed into wind- totally free. We are being transformed into water, totally immersed in the universal oneness of God, yet, as individual drops, totally self aware and aware of each other.
I do not believe God controls everything, as much as I believe He has set in motion the parameters of the process by which He is transforming all things- Behold I make all things new.
I do believe God is intimately involved every step along the way with each one and all together. I also believe He knows who we are before we are born and what we will become and when.
I also don't think I see this clearly. These are my misty opinions based on my present revelation. I only share them so that they can be resisted, refined, perhaps even overturned ;o)
I just don't think God can set us free if we have NO freedom. He is preparing us for stewardship(ministry of reconciliation, glorious liberty of the sons of God) as He transforms us in love. As partakers of the divine nature we grow in the measure of what He can trust us with, and reflect more clearly the image of His Son.
When love is perfected, freedom will be complete. Perfect love is completely free because it can do no harm and does only well in the joy of its own union and harmony.
You shall know the truth(I am the way the truth and the life), and the truth shall make you free :o).
How the freedom we are being given and the will fo God over all things work together in the inner workings of the wisdom of God and the mind of Christ? I would not presume to say I understand all of that. :o)
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 22, 2013, 07:42:54 PM
How can He not be in control of everything, if He is "transforming all things" and make all things new? And if God " is intimately involved every step along the way with each one and all together.."
And " He knows who we are before we are born and what we will become and when."
How does that not make Him the cause for each and every choice and turn man makes?
My thought is about how did the teaching of man having free will get into the picture? Where is the evidence that man was given free will?
Please excuse me for butting in again Micah. Of course Father is in control of everything, but to what level? Does Father have to micro manage every last detail? Like down to the function of even a single cell. Let's face it, even the complexity of a cell in how it operates, and knows what to do based on a specific DNA sequence. I mean how could something so small operate all by itself, splitting and re-splitting as needed? The answer is obvious? Because Father designed it this way; nothing happens outside of the scope of the design.
So yes Father is in control of the physical universe as we know it, but not to the point of MAKING me take a firearm and walk into a crowded supermarket and kill dozens of innocent people. To think this is giving reason to do what you want to whom. The teachings of Satan for sure. Rather, Father has given one the means to perform such an act, and also the reasoning, compassion (LOVE)and conscious to not commit such an act. We simply choose not to. Father isn't MAKING us decide anything, He just knows what we will do before we do. This is not control, it is knowing. A huge difference.
I am an application developer among other things and can write an application to perform a task and include constraints this ensuring it works as designed and only as designed. I have no control over whom uses the application, when or where, but I do know that it will perform as designed. Knowledge is not controlling. Father KNOWS everything, but HE does not MAKE us LOVE HIM, He just opens the door / window.
Hoping this helps again
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
I gues Micah, it may hinge on our definition of control. I like the analogy of raising children. As they grow we remove the constraints of control. We allow them to grow through the decisions they make- good and bad. I see the Father operating in this way with us.
I don't like the word "control" it falls short, in fact even something ugly, when it comes to the Creator. You see, I do not believe the Lord God began His work with a thought of "controlling," but He set the plan and purpose to work for RESTORATION, one cannot restore anything that has not been ruined.
" The teachings of Satan for sure." As far as my belief, there is no "teaching of satan."
"Father has given one the means to perform such an act, and also the reasoning, compassion (LOVE)and conscious to not commit such an act." Not without Him drawing you. Man was made to do such a thing see Gen. 4:8...We, man can only "choose" not to do evil after we have been caused to KNOW Him.
"Father isn't MAKING us decide anything, He just knows what we will do before we do." Now that is an amazing statement.
I am a retired man, other than having been given, by grace to begin my journey to know the Lord, I am but a shadow in a world of shadows.
Father KNOWS everything, but HE does not MAKE us LOVE HIM, He just opens the door / window."
No He does not make us love Him, simply, when He draws you.....it had to be love given...that embrace is one I did not look for.....I love Him....but am so very weak in that love compared to His.
Micah I would never call you weak in the eyes of Father, for the spirit is clearly seen through your manner on this forum. It seems we are on the same page regarding "Controlling." You are so right in saying: "We, man can only "choose" not to do evil after we have been caused to KNOW him."
There are untold accounts of kind, compassionate and very wise people throughout history (Buddhism and Hinduism and even some native Indian tribes here in the USA.) These people were and I would say still are very much examples of Father causing himself to be known. Of course some will say that they do not know Jesus and thus could not know Father. But Jesus was spirit before becoming man and is spirit once more. Who are we to say (limit) has been given the spirit of Love and who hasn't.
Rev 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Most fail to see the obvious in this Scripture. Christ is the END, not the end that will come but rather the END that has been written.
Ecc 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yetfn no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
I just love this verse. There isn't a people on Earth that doesn't seek something that they know cannot be found in this dimension.
Love is Light and it's fruits are seen through actions, and not words alone.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on December 23, 2013, 03:07:31 AM
There are untold accounts of kind, compassionate and very wise people throughout history (Buddhism and Hinduism and even some native Indian tribes here in the USA.) These people were and I would say still are very much examples of Father causing himself to be known. Of course some will say that they do not know Jesus and thus could not know Father. But Jesus was spirit before becoming man and is spirit once more. Who are we to say (limit) has been given the spirit of Love [?] and who hasn't.
Jn. 1:12 He gave the right and the power to become children of God to those who received Him. He gave this to those who put their trust in His name.
I John 4:1 Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2
This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God, 3 and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God.
Romans 6
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life (the life of the age - to know Jesus Christ). 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
To be free indeed, is to be slave to God. See, I don't believe that God controls the actions of those who commit sins. He simply does not interfere with everyone, because he has a plan and and order by which all who are in Adam will be given life in Christ. When he does not interfere, man is slave to his primal impulses. He does not tempt any man to sin. The flesh does that.
When it comes to the mundane things like what we eat and whether we make our beds, I would not be too quick to rule out God's influences on those things either. As the old example goes, a butterfly flaps its wings, and causes a tidal wave on the other side of the world. I wouldn't be too dismissive of the idea that God might be using even the the most seemingly inconsequential actions.
I'll give you an example from my own life. I have a 5 year old daughter. 10-15 years before she was born, I took an art class, and someone I met encouraged me to go to a certain school. I took his advice and through a long series of events eventually met my wife and we had our child. If I had chosen to take a different class, or even the same class at a different time, my kid would probably not be here today, but I believe God is in control of who he births into the world. I believe his hand was at work even in my decision which I would have thought to be a minor thing.
I'm just saying, if you think back on your life, think upon the small things that steered your course to what caused the larger things to happen for which you praise God. Maybe his invisible hand is not so absent from the smaller things.
Quote from: jabcat on December 23, 2013, 03:46:59 AM
Jn. 1:12 He gave the right and the power to become children of God to those who received Him. He gave this to those who put their trust in His name.
I John 4:1 Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God, 3 and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God.
:iagree:
Maybe it's a bit off topic but I think it's clear that regardless of how white someone's own righteousness is externally, the truth is:
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Abraham believed God and so was called a friend of God (James 2:23)
Thanks Seth for sharing a very heart-warming story...
I did smile when I read "Maybe his invisible hand is not so absent from the smaller things." A few days ago, I met one of the older tenants here at what we call The Free Table... free food, knick knacks, sometimes even an old TV... that day, I found an item (very small) that I really "needed"... she just said "Oh yes, isn't God so loving, He even cares about the small things..." she went on to discuss a couple of really BIG situations, saying "You know, there are no things like coincidences...God is everywhere, every hour hovering over us... longing to care for our every need and want, and yes, sometimes scolding us... but only because He loves us so much He doesn't want us to do things that in the long run will hurt us.... " I smiled as she talked about our loving God. I had been so lonely for some discussion about God's great love and He arranged for me to be at The Free Table at the exact same time as this dear older woman. (I'm 79, she's closer to 99! so I can call her older.)
re: free will Well, I believe that man is free to will anything man is able to will...
the important word is not "free", but "man"... Man like God thinks...but God's thoughts are much higher than man's thoughts... I believe we need to place the word like in the correct place... man like God thinks... NOT man thinks like God...
Quote from: anna274 on December 23, 2013, 09:51:40 PM
re: free will Well, I believe that man is free to will anything man is able to will...
the important word is not "free", but "man"... Man like God thinks...but God's thoughts are much higher than man's thoughts... I believe we need to place the word like in the correct place... man like God thinks... NOT man thinks like God...
Yes, I agree. Man, like God, thinks. Also, man is able to make choices. But is man able to choose anything outside the confines of what he IS and what he KNOWS? If he is flesh and knows only the flesh, he will always choose the flesh, until God drags him to the cross to get rid of the flesh.
This always gets back to defining what "free will" is supposed to mean, because the Bible does not use that term nor define it, which leaves it up to us. I believe that God created the confines which surround creation, thereby creating means by which he can influence his creation as a potter influences clay.
:iagree:
Yet,......"... defining what "free will" is supposed to mean, because the Bible does not use that term nor define it, ...." the phrase got its way into religious teaching and has become somewhat of a mantra, right along with the celebration/recognition of christmas, easter, trinity... could even throw in rapture. I believe and have stated before, to accept in man having a free will, makes/lets, man think he has some part of the responsibility for how everything began.
Here are my thoughts on the freedom of Christ:
John 8
31Then said Jesus to those Jews <b>which believed on him</b>, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, <b>and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?</b>
Now that I find interesting. They didn't know they were in bondage. They thought it was absurd for anyone to say that they were not free, because they felt free. They thought slavery was a matter of externalization, rather than in the mind, and the mind is what controls the choices. So we have people making choices, falsely believing that they are free from bondage.
34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. <b>36If the Son therefore shall make you free</b>, ye shall be free indeed. 37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: <b>and ye do that which ye have seen with your father</b>.
How shocking was it to them to know that they had a father named Satan who they were in bondage to all the while believing they were free men?
To me, if I look at the context there, I don't see a will which has been freed to be autonomous, but one which has been freed from sin. I think from the context above, Jesus is saying that he has to MAKE us free from sin, and in order to do that, he creates this process according to his providence.
Romans 8
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
This process of being MADE to be "free indeed" I do not see as freedom unto autonomy, but freedom from sin according to the foreknowledge, predestination, and active process of conforming them to the image of his Son so that it is all of God and no man may boast.
In other words, "If ye continue in my word, ye are disciples indeed" is God's choice, and if they are free indeed is a matter of whether they have been predestination to be so, and the freedom itself is not in self-rule, but in God ruling over them to make them into the image of his Son.
For those who were made free and then returned to slavery to Satan, John recognizes the Romans 8 process by saying this:
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Good thoughts :dsunny: Somewhat off the subject of man's free will, but good thoughts. :thumbsup:
When the Lord has begun His work in the one the Father has drawn, we become free, free in deed, and no longer work under the natural, even though we fall at times, err, miss the mark, we know we have a mediator. We now begin our walk in HIS Will, a will we did have knowledge of, now we grow, mature, become ONE with Him. :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 23, 2013, 11:46:42 PM
Good thoughts :dsunny:
Indeed, very good and very, very helpful. I have a list of scripture verses (which include these verses) in my notebook under the heading TO BE ARRANGED LATER... for my ongoing study of "from legal bondage to FREEDOM IN CHRIST.
I really like your arrangement of these verses ---> a beautiful flow of spiritual insights into the FREEDOM OF CHRIST.
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 23, 2013, 11:46:42 PM
Good thoughts :dsunny: Somewhat off the subject of man's free will, but good thoughts.
Well, what I am getting at is that if the definition of "free will" is "self rule" I do not see that present within the scripture which includes the phrase "free indeed." I believe the definition of freedom there is ironically tied to the notion of being a clay pot in the hand of the Potter. The above scripture, to me, actually reinforces the idea that freedom from sin depends not on self-rule, but on Christ-rule.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (My reference.)
I have no use for phrases such as "free will or self will" as subjects of my studying of the Word, they do not exist in my Bibles. My reasoning is, not man after... meeting Christ, but man in the very beginning having a "free will-self will", having assisted the Lord God in His Purpose and Plan for His creation. Man had no will, but the Will Lord God. :dsunny:
My reasoning is both before and after meeting Christ. I don't have much of a problem with the idea that man has a will and that man can make choices. I just don't think that man's will is "free." I don't much have a problem with using terms that are not in the Bible either. For example, I believe in universal salvation. That very term is not present in the Bible, so it's up to me to communicate what I mean by that, and what I mean by it is certainly supported by the Bible.
I am not UR and don't use it... I like 1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Man has a will, and that will is to miss the mark, sin, man does have the mental ability to make choices and does everyday.
I would not say I AM UR. I am Seth. But I definitely believe in UR. I think the Bible is clear about it.
I believe it is The Lord's will that all men will be saved. I do not like labels, to me that's how we got all "labels" we have now and call them denominations.
I dunno, Peter accepted the label "Christian" even though it wasn't present within his Bible. :dunno2: :HeartThrob:
I read somewhere why believers were called christians, it was because they were being made fun of, like, "Look at those Christlike people," Don't know. Could be wrong. But then I ask, why Act_11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
is the only recorded time such a thing happened. Why no reference from Paul, James, even Peter for wasn't Acts written by Luke?
Check 1 Peter 4:16
I stand corrected, thank you. One still must wonder why if having worth was not used more. :Peace2:
Been good posting I am going to watch "Quigley Down Under" have a good night. :HeartThrob:
I'm not sure that it has worth particularly but I don't think its much of a big deal. I don't think terms that are not in the Bible are necessarily bad to use I just think it's important that they follow the right doctrine. That's important. the English language has millions of words or at least hundreds of thousands. I think its okay to utilize those words even if they are not technically in the Greek language or Hebrew
Perhaps that's true and I can somewhat agree, yet if one sticks to the A B C blocks it's a whole lot easier to teach. Man's words have disguised much of what is written. For example ALL, man uses universal, is ALL so hard to understand over universal? Or I'm a Believer in Jesus Christ verses I'm a christian? Yes I am gonna watch Quigley!
Quote from: jabcat on December 23, 2013, 03:46:59 AM
Quote from: JulieTang84 on December 23, 2013, 03:07:31 AM
There are untold accounts of kind, compassionate and very wise people throughout history (Buddhism and Hinduism and even some native Indian tribes here in the USA.) These people were and I would say still are very much examples of Father causing himself to be known. Of course some will say that they do not know Jesus and thus could not know Father. But Jesus was spirit before becoming man and is spirit once more. Who are we to say (limit) has been given the spirit of Love [?] and who hasn't.
Jn. 1:12 He gave the right and the power to become children of God to those who received Him. He gave this to those who put their trust in His name.
I John 4:1 Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God, 3 and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God.
Touche, James :HeartThrob: but I feel you are missing something that hopefully I share with you via Scripture. Just turn on the TV any Sunday morning and flip through the many channels and see 1,000s upon 1,000s gleefully professing their love for Jesus and gloating with self righteous indignation about how "good" they are and how bad everyone one else is. I am very happy for you if you have not had someone whom you love, condemn you to something too horrific for words but say they love you. Jesus had much to say about such as these....
Mat 7:22
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'
Mat 7:23
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Mat 15:8
" 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
Jhn 16:2
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
Do YOU really think John was talking about such as these, who spend their whole lives praising Jesus and acting as God, judging everyone with more hatred than Satan himself could muster.
James please consider the following:
Mat 20:1
"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard.
Mat 20:2
He agreed to pay them a denariusfn for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
Mat 20:3
"About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing.
Mat 20:4
He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.'
Mat 20:5
So they went. "He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing.
Mat 20:6
About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'
Mat 20:7
" 'Because no one has hired us,' they answered. "He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'
Mat 20:8
"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'
Mat 20:9
"The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius.
Mat 20:10
So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius.
Mat 20:11
When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner.
Mat 20:12
'These who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'
Mat 20:13
"But he answered one of them, 'I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius?
Mat 20:14
Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you.
Mat 20:15
Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'
Mat 20:16
"So the last will be first, and the first will be last."
PLEASE do not be in a huge rush to put anyone ahead of anyone else. Clearly Jesus was talking about the so called righteous (pious) people of his time, just as I am now. The workers in the story were mortified because they worked so hard for so long and the ones who did so little for such a short time received the same reward.
Jesus does not need people to say his name or to give him testimony. He knows each person intimately, with the same Love as FATHER. :HeartThrob:
Jhn 2:25
He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.Jesus said himself, Father mast be worshipped in SPIRIT, not by what comes out of the mouth. Father knows hearts and this is from which all worship must come; from a Spirit Filled Heart.
Luke 15:16
He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God's sight.This has always amazed me. Jesus's love was so complete that he gave himself up for everyone. But I do not KNOW a single person who would consider giving up what they have been given (not saying there isn't anyone) so that one who cannot see, might. Father knows my heart well enough to know I would do it in an instant. I judge no one James, and I believe without question that Father has revealed himself through SPIRIT to peoples of all types and creeds. The last truly will be first, and those with TRUE love in their hearts would not want it any other way.
Jhn 12:26
If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
So how does one truly serve Christ? Father has given me the understanding of DOING all things that Jesus did. Jesus gave perfect examples of how to LIVE, LOVE and GLORIFY Father in everything. He condemned no one. RATHER he had UNCONDITIONAL Love to all, because he DIED for all.
SO does Jesus care more about the words the come out peoples mouths: "Jesus Saves.....but not you!!!"
or is he interested most in the condition of ones heart? I think the latter.
Gal 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23
gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.With much Love and Respect,
Julie :HeartThrob:
(these sidelines, including Seth's post earlier, appear off topic, but actually is related to the part of the OP that is "calling Jesus 'Lord' ")
Hey Julie. :) Thanks. For my view, though related, I believe there are separate/distinct issues. As far as all that, I've never advocated hate, and neither do the scriptures, or neither does anyone walking by the Spirit. I agree we should be kind to each other and it's very sad when there is abuse. Beyond that, I'll try to keep my reply very focused and hopefully not distract.
The central point for me is, the Gospel is not "all about love" or "all about a spirit of love". It's Christ and Him crucified, as Paul said. All else spiritually grows from that foundation, including love among all other fruits of the Spirit, and from where the healing and true condition of ones' heart flows. That's why we're to proclaim Jesus, Savior, rather than ideologies. Then the Holy Spirit does the works of the Father in each believers' heart. I believe except for any specific instances in which God may choose to express Himself (i.e., speaking through a donkey, the burning bush, using anyone or anything for His glory) anything less than (or apart from) the Person of the Christ is darkness parading as Light.
James, amen. It's about Christ and him Crucified. It's about walking with God by faith and not falling back from it.
Quote from: Seth on December 24, 2013, 08:10:12 AM
James, amen. It's about Christ and him Crucified. It's about walking with God by faith and not falling back from it.
..and He is risen! :thumbsup:
"..and He is risen! :thumbsup:" :dsunny:
what I think of as the stumbling block here, is how the 'choice' is thought to be for within this life only, missing two things.. [#1] ppl only 'choose' when God brings it about! And [#2] there's really only one verse in all the Bible which could be thought to imply the 'choice' can only be made during this short lifetime, when Jesus told the pharisees unless they repent they will die in their sins, which imo, only means they will be part of the 2nd resurrection, a for a time/age, inferior resurrection, not as joyful and filling, etc.
Hebrews 6:2 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
...2 "of the teaching of baptisms, of laying on also of hands, of rising again also of the dead, and of judgment age-during" (age-during judgment..? day..?)
:dsunny: greetings! (have missed being here!:)
Quote from: marie glen on January 02, 2014, 07:45:54 PM
when Jesus told the pharisees unless they repent they will die in their sins, which imo, only means they will be part of the 2nd resurrection, a for a time/age, inferior resurrection, not as joyful and filling, etc.
This may or may not be off topic. But my thoughts on "die in their sins" is that it does not necessarily refer to a future death, or death in the sense of a lack of resurrection to conscious life. I think Jesus means that because they rejected him, they will not be saved from the sins they were already working. They were plotting to kill him, so they were murderers already.
1 John 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life (Life of the age) abiding in him.
The Life of the age is Jesus Christ by the life giving Spirit unto which he was raised. They were already dying in their sins by being slave to sin and working death with their hands. And, by "death" I don't just mean the death of Christ, but their own walking death.
I think this is definitely tru and incorporated in what Jesus was saying to them.
"He that believes in me shall not die, but has passed from death into life". Believers do not die "in their sins" because they have believed, and therefore received the benefit of believing, forgiveness of sin, resurrection power, the gift of eternal life.
The one who does not believe is dead(judged) already. Death, and all that goes with walking in it, is the judgment.
Yes exactly :thumbsup:
Ephesians 2
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us,(H) God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions
absolutely.. but my point was one verse only, in the Bible that some can point to claiming to die in thier sins was a for ever and ever for all eternity event..
the only Bible verse that can be misconstrued so as to seem to say if not redeemed and reconciled before one dies, claiming in that case "all hope is lost" can never be saved..
:smile: :hiya: