Luke 12:5New King James Version (NKJV)
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
The word here is "Gehenna" but the words also say, "after" death cast into.. ((Not as a purgatory for why would the 2nd resurrection need more stringent handling than the first, if all is God's election and will??))
This is my belief this is the potential. The very real potential Father Almighty has rescued all from.
And the very real potential He is revealing to, and deeply engraving upon, every heart, mind and psyche with the very tip of His finger as He wrote His principals upon stone for Moses so long ago. (So God need not be eternal babysitter).
This being the lesson and story of every human life and the story and lesson of history as a whole.
God, surely? is life, itself. And to wander from Him (who is also Perfection) is to become imperfect, the opposite of life. Bottom line, the lesson, apart from Him - nothing.
That apart from life, there ultimately is only nonlife and nothingness.
Luke 12:5 "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!" is that very real potential, which begins with the "outer darkness" of separation from He who is life and all.
The life of every of every person or creature, and any and every thing man, woman or angel may build, apart from God ("built on sand") is conclusively revealed (by this life) as nothingness.. As apocalypse in its modern sense of the word.
The potential? (He has prevented) - to wander from God can only result in dust and ashes and a self destructive wisp of smoke.
It's my belief this is an infinite truth God is building into the structure and awareness of all life and a marvelous universe which will be forever athrob with joyful singing to He who is Life and all Love. All the life and love there is, was, and will be, is Him.
Question: why did God wait and create man & woman and the universe only after Lucifer and "celestial ones left their first place and had not only fallen from grace, but outright sedition and trickery had taken its place? (Sorry, been reading and writing a lot of poetry lately. :laughing7: )
The next verse, Luke 12:6 (NASB)
"Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God."
Did you read this in the Bible? "Question: why did God wait and create man & woman and the universe only after Lucifer and "celestial ones left their first place and had not only fallen from grace, ...."
Without interpretation, where is the record of such an occurrence. Just curious. :dontknow:
I've thought that God was the one with the authority to cast into Gehenna, but just now wondered if it is the devil. Which one is it? :dontknow:
A look from Young's Literal Translation:
Luk 12:4 `And I say to you, my friends, be not afraid of those killing the body, and after these things are not having anything over to do;
Luk 12:5 but I will show to you, whom ye may fear; Fear him who, after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna; yes, I say to you, Fear ye Him.
Jesus was speaking about the Pharisee's, about the Law, or the Commandments. For the commandments convict man of sin, thereby decreeing the death sentence of man.
The sin is recognized and man stands guilty. The next step is the sacrifice, the burnt offering. So the sinner is purged by the fire, cast into hell/gehenna, to destroy the first man Adam, that a new man, the second Adam may arise, which is then evidence by baptism. Look at the temple and this is plainly seen.
So yes, it is God that is Feared!
Check out a comparison of two scriptures:
James 3
5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! 6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of Gehenna.
James is likening the fire of Gehenna to sinfulness which sets the course of our nature into destruction. It starts as a little fire, the tongue, and grows into full-blown sinfulness. That is what I believe Gehenna represents. Comparing to:
Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness....24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
So one of God's methods of wrath is to give people exactly what they want. Their own affections. Looking back to "fear him who is able to cast into Gehenna." I think Luke 12:5 is another way of saying "be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it."
Personally, I think Gehenna represents more than just the fruit of sin in this life. It represents being outside the city in the garbage dump where detestable things are burned- which can be in this life- but I believe it also refers to the fire of matthew 25:41, which I personally believe extends for many beyond the Great White Throne and into the Lake of Fire. The context, "after He has killed" says something beyond reaping what we have sown in this life, to me.
I explain my opinion of what that is about here..... http://hell-is-a-myth.webs.com/thefireofgod.htm (http://hell-is-a-myth.webs.com/thefireofgod.htm)
I totally agree EW. I think this life only contains a manifestation of Gehenna.
:friendstu:
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 12, 2014, 07:03:41 PM
Did you read this in the Bible? "Question: why did God wait and create man & woman and the universe only after Lucifer and "celestial ones left their first place and had not only fallen from grace, ...."
Without interpretation, where is the record of such an occurrence. Just curious. :dontknow:
...the serpent and Eve is what I base it on.. Is there a rule against "interpretation"? I try to remember to put imo, or I believe in each post..
Is evil (all imperfection) going to be vanquished? Or is that just metaphor? (This is not a sincere question, it is sarcasm.)
How about the crucifixion? literal or metaphor? Creation? Why is everything internalized..?
The first lie is "surely you won't die?"
But the Bible says the wages of sin is death. Why is death thought of as another form of life and living, so imbedded in the human psyche? (such a "stronghold")
I'm saying w/o God's merciful intervention, all humans and 1/3 of all angels (ReV 12) would "die" / "perish" / "be destroyed"
Those words are literally in the Bible. (What false belief/doctrine demands they be taken away from God's Word?)
Let us move on from the milk (yes, we're all sinners) to meat.. why is the Bible all internalized as one thing only?
UR has embedded doctrines which will keep it small. [imo]
Quote from: marie glen on July 13, 2014, 05:18:34 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 12, 2014, 07:03:41 PM
Did you read this in the Bible? "Question: why did God wait and create man & woman and the universe only after Lucifer and "celestial ones left their first place and had not only fallen from grace, ...."
Without interpretation, where is the record of such an occurrence. Just curious. :dontknow:
...the serpent and Eve is what I base it on.. Is there a rule against "interpretation"? I try to remember to put imo, or I believe in each post..
as a side note here--- Serpent in the scriptures were referred to as being men in various places---John the Baptist call Men Serpents--So from a scriptural basis we can conclude that the Serpent in Gen. was Adam--he was the only man there--and the cause of all troubles--sin and Death came through Adam--in essence he also committed murder(he was a murderer from the beginning) when he murdered his own wife and his self also--he was a liar------------
There is more scriptural basis that the serpent of gen. was a Man --as other scriptures make evident.
This is from my perspective--also notice that there is no warning or any mention in the Book of Moses of a so called fallen angel with herds of fallen angels with him that is deceiving and killing people--such a one that existed would have caused Moses to warn the people about(don't you think so???)but Moses did no such thing.
But you can find man behind all the evil in the scriptures---and it was MAN that was judged in the Flood---not some fallen angels.
Just some thoughts from scripture :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: marie glen on July 13, 2014, 05:30:42 PM
Is evil (all imperfection) going to be vanquished? Or is that just metaphor? (This is not a sincere question, it is sarcasm.)
How about the crucifixion? literal or metaphor? Creation? Why is everything internalized..?
The first lie is "surely you won't die?"
But the Bible says the wages of sin is death. Why is death thought of as another form of life and living, so imbedded in the human psyche? (such a "stronghold")
I'm saying w/o God's merciful intervention, all humans and 1/3 of all angels (ReV 12) would "die" / "perish" / "be destroyed"
Those words are literally in the Bible. (What false belief/doctrine demands they be taken away from God's Word?)
Let us move on from the milk (yes, we're all sinners) to meat.. why is the Bible all internalized as one thing only?
UR has embedded doctrines which will keep it small. [imo]
Apostle James provides an internalized view of Gehenna, why shouldn't I?
Quote from: FreeAtLast on July 13, 2014, 07:55:41 PM
Quote from: marie glen on July 13, 2014, 05:18:34 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 12, 2014, 07:03:41 PM
Did you read this in the Bible? "Question: why did God wait and create man & woman and the universe only after Lucifer and "celestial ones left their first place and had not only fallen from grace, ...."
Without interpretation, where is the record of such an occurrence. Just curious. :dontknow:
...the serpent and Eve is what I base it on.. Is there a rule against "interpretation"? I try to remember to put imo, or I believe in each post..
as a side note here--- Serpent in the scriptures were referred to as being men in various places---John the Baptist call Men Serpents--So from a scriptural basis we can conclude that the Serpent in Gen. was Adam--he was the only man there--and the cause of all troubles--sin and Death came through Adam--in essence he also committed murder(he was a murderer from the beginning) when he murdered his own wife and his self also--he was a liar------------
There is more scriptural basis that the serpent of gen. was a Man --as other scriptures make evident.
This is from my perspective--also notice that there is no warning or any mention in the Book of Moses of a so called fallen angel with herds of fallen angels with him that is deceiving and killing people--such a one that existed would have caused Moses to warn the people about(don't you think s at o???)but Moses did no such thing.
But you can find man behind all the evil in the scriptures---and it was MAN that was judged in the Flood---not some fallen angels.
Just some thoughts from scripture :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
I find the scriptures to be far less clear than you do on the subject of who the serpent was. Perhaps if you only look at one or two and extrapolate as you hav it seems very clear, but a full topical and contextual study presents a very strong case that there is a malevolent spirit that is outside Adam, working within Adam by his permission, and participating in the evil of man. Whether or not that spirit was creaated by God as an assayer or fell from heaven in some rebellion or another is far less clear(imo)- but by no means are the scriptures clear that Satan, or, the devil, is Adam. Such a positions requires a lot of interpretation.
It's my belief God endowed thinking ability to angel and man.. and that thinking ability includes, sooner or later, the ability to choose (tho limited of course).. and that all are taking this unavoidable journey and lesson together, instead of spread out over eternity.. the lesson of learning good from evil..
From Revelation 12(one of three Bk of Rev inserts?) verses 3-16 - Young's Literal Translation (pls read)
"dragon ..old serpent, called Devil.. Adversary"
"3 And there was seen another sign in the heaven, and, lo, a great red dragon...and his tail doth draw the third of the stars of the heaven,...and the dragon" (in the person of Herod?) "did stand before the woman that when she may bring forth, her child he may devour; (Him)
5 and she brought forth a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron" (unbreakable principle) "and caught away was her child unto God and His throne,
6 and the woman" (now the faith as Christ-ianity) "did flee to the wilderness" (a first, for the most part, migration of the faith)
"7 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon, and the dragon did war, and his messengers," (called "winds of fire" elsewhere, the same 1/3 "stars" of verse 3)
8 and they did not prevail, nor was their place found any more in the heaven;
9 and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.
10 And I heard a great voice saying in the heaven, `Now did come the salvation, and the power, and the reign, of our God, and the authority of His Christ, because cast down was the accuser of our brethren, who is" (at the time this was written) "accusing them before our God day and night;" (Christ Crucified won the victory, half the victory manifest)
"...13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast forth to the earth, he pursued" (inquisitioned?) "the woman who did bring forth the male," ("manchild"/Son of man)
"14 AND there were given to the woman two wings of the great eagle, that she may fly" (sail?) "to the wilderness, to her place, where she is nourished a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent;" (1620+350)
15 and the serpent did cast forth after the woman, out of his mouth, water as a river," (vomit/filth) "that he may cause her to be carried away by the river," (wash the faith in Christ off the earth)
"16 and the land did help the woman, and the land did open its mouth and did swallow up the river," (LUKE 23:28,31) "that THE DRAGON did cast forth out of his mouth"
:girlheart:
There is a common thread between Satan, Eve, Adam and all of mankind.
REASON
That is reasoning without God!
In Job, Satan reasoned with God about the righteousness of Job. In the Garden, the serpent (whatever it was) reasoned with Eve (who was deceived first), and Eve then reasoned with Adam to take the forbidden fruit.
Isn't it the same now, that those who don't "walk" with God and commune with him in everything lust after their own ways, not God's ways. Don't we who draw close to God and pray to Him become righteous?
Evil is selfishness! Righteousness is selfLESSness.
my :2c:
I agree about the inner workings of the Spirit, but also see an outer working as to the world and history..
I believe all come to repentance before the end of judgment day..
Jesus told the pharisees unless they repented they would die in their sins - were they not dead in carnality at the time?
Inn other words, to me, if the Bible says the serpent is the dragon which deceives the whole world, the adversary who once had a place in heaven (the verses in my previous post) then that is the straightforward thing I believe, and find no need for otherwise.. even if mankind can be called serpents..
:)