SERPENT Means " To learn from experience"? :icon_flower:
Ecc 3:10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.
Ecc 3:11 He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
Ecc 3:12 I know that [there is] no good in them, but for [a man] to rejoice, and to do good in his life.
AV — enchantment 4, divine 2, enchanter 1, indeed 1, certainly 1, learn by experience 1, diligently observe 1
Yiks we are to Diligently obseve the ways of the serpent~ and NOT the ways Of our Lord# The Definitions are screwed Right~ :icon_flower:
ya Know we have been fed myths for eons# but again the Mind of man is an illusion under the Influence of a Spell. Witchcraft## so its hardly surprising man Mind is still drugged SEEING the ILLUSION# believing it to be the reality###
so how do we break the spell?
With the last two versus of the book:
All has been heard; the end of the matter is:
Fear God [revere and worship Him, knowing that He is] and keep His commandments, for this is the whole of man [the full, original purpose of his creation, the object of God's providence, the root of character, the foundation of all happiness, the adjustment to all inharmonious circumstances and conditions under the sun] and the whole [duty] for every man.
For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it is good or evil.
Quote from: redhotmagma on October 27, 2011, 04:40:35 AM
so how do we break the spell?
The Curse OF death~ The Serpent, the Father who fed the seed Eve Birthed= Caranal Mind~
The sepent is the cause of death~CURSED to go upon thy Belly[ the Belly is often used as Metaphor for the Mind~The spirit of man [is] the candle of.the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly. ~ To eat DUST[ being fed\living from carnal reasoning being death ~all the days of HIS life]~
The Curse of the Serpent perished through Christ upon the Cross [ at Golgotha~the place of the SKULL] = CURSE REVERSED~ ~Mans fate was decided by the SERPENT until The seed of Christ CRUSHED its HEAD~And I will put" enmity "between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. ~
Itall allegory~ as it takes part within our minds\soul= Our womb= our eve= our Garden~ so do the Two Children birthed within the Womb of EVE, As Cain in Type is the first Born after the carnal Mind , Abel in type is Christ seed, slain by the Cain who seed remains sleeping [ His Blood cries from the ground]within the carnal mind Until made awake~ Christ was laid to REST in the GARDEN, it pictures HIM SLEEPING within Our Minds~~ the carnal Mind is defeated by HIS DEATH~ the carnal mind is not made better~ its Slain~
NOW that we know — Come quickly LORD JESUS!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 27, 2011, 07:32:41 PM
NOW that we know — Come quickly LORD JESUS!
Mar 4:37 And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full.
Mar 4:38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?
Mar 4:39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.
Mar 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?
Mar 4:41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?
Shalom~
It's not just the carnal mind. We believers in Christ are going to live forever--he has given us eternal life.
Therefore, we do not have to live in fear of death anymore, because he has conquered death for us.
Quote from: Molly on October 27, 2011, 07:51:45 PM
It's not just the carnal mind. We believers in Christ are going to live forever--he has given us eternal life.
Therefore, we do not have to live in fear of death anymore, because he has conquered death for us.
wqhat do you mean Its not just the carnal mind# expound some?
Quote from: Taffy on October 27, 2011, 07:53:36 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 27, 2011, 07:51:45 PM
It's not just the carnal mind. We believers in Christ are going to live forever--he has given us eternal life.
Therefore, we do not have to live in fear of death anymore, because he has conquered death for us.
wqhat do you mean Its not just the carnal mind# expound some?
You seem to focus only on this life and only on the carnal mind.
I'm not even sure what you mean by the carnal mind.
We Christians have already moved beyond it though, I think, because there is now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus...
We walk by faith, not by sight.
we are already walking after the Spirit.
And, when this life is over, we will live with him forever.
Quote from: Molly on October 27, 2011, 07:59:15 PM
Quote from: Taffy on October 27, 2011, 07:53:36 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 27, 2011, 07:51:45 PM
It's not just the carnal mind. We believers in Christ are going to live forever--he has given us eternal life.
Therefore, we do not have to live in fear of death anymore, because he has conquered death for us.
wqhat do you mean Its not just the carnal mind# expound some?
You seem to focus only on this life and only on the carnal mind.
I'm not even sure what you mean by the carnal mind.
We Christians have already moved beyond it though, I think, because there is now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus...
We walk by faith, not by sight.
we are already walking after the Spirit.
And, when this life is over, we will live with him forever.
No Molly as we move Death unto Life but many are not really sure what death is~ the serpent\satan etc aids in our understanding#
heres a Cand P of study shared with a Brother~
The great red dragon,serpent,Satan, and the devil, These are the natures of the carnal mind. ( earthly counciousness ) Rev. 12. v. 9 and Rev. Chap. 20. v. 2 Genes...is Chap. 3. v. 15 I will put enmity between thee and the woman... Romans Chap. 8.v. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God. Serpent = ( lieing thoughts ) Satan = Allowing your 5 senses to rule you. Devil = accuser ,Father of all lies. Dragon = vehicle or body of evil. Serpent comes from the word ( Nachash ) which means ,serpent or shining one. In this scripture it is used as a symbol of the earthly mind. Also a serpent ( snake ) goes by its 5 senses, A snake has no ears,( Jesus said let those who have an ear ), it goes by feeling the vibrations from his belly. The dust is the religious teachings. Being led by feelings and not by the Spirit. Also google Nachash. Matthew Chap. 23. v. 33 Ye serpents. How can ye escape the damnation of hell ( carnal mind )...Romans Chap. 8.v. 6 For to be carnally minded is Death. ( demons,hate,fear,devils,evil spirits,condemnation,division,WITCHCRAFT,etc. ) .But to be Spiritually minded ( Life and Peace ). Proverbs Chap. 23. v. 7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he.
Satan = 5 senses, In this physical world. We are led by our senses, Example, Fear,drama, greed, hate, division,strife,Mans religion,sickness,poverty,the list goes on and on. This is not the mind of God. Jesus was not led by his sen...ses, He was led by the Spirit. Lets look at the book of Job. He was perfect and upright,and one that feared God. Now we know ,God talked with Satan. Lets look at Job Chap. 3. v. 25 For the thing which I greatly ( FEARED ) is come upon me, and that which I was (AFRAID ) of is come unto me. Job had to come face to face with ( HIS FEAR ) so he could overcome it. Same as we do. Now look at Job Chap. 42 .v. 11 All the evil that the ( LORD ) had brought upon him. Now read Matthew Chap. 16 .v. 23 But he turned and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan thou art an offence unto me, for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Now he called Peter Satan, Because he was being led by his own Intellect. And not by the Spirit. Now read Luke Chap. 22. v. 3 . Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. Judas Was being led by Greed. He was allowing the outward things to rule him. Now read 2 Corinthians Chap. 12 .v. 7 There was ( GIVEN ) to me a thorn in the flesh.The messenger of Satan. v.10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches,in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ sake, for when ( I AM WEEK THEN AM I STRONG ). God also uses the carnal mind for purifing. Any time you read about Satan in the Bible, It always fefers to the man of God. Satan is symbolic for the 5 sense realm. What we see,hear,smell,touch,and taste, is the voice for are feelings :icon_flower:
The Illusion caused by witchcraft from the serpent,, the spell, GIVING man the Dream of LIFE other then the reality~ the serpent means to learn by experience, our WALK[LIFE], until we are drawn back to the REALITY WHO is LIFE ~Curse Removed~
... and if in "this life" ONLY we have hope, we are of all men most miserable... for "to be" PHYSICALLY ALIVE is still "to be" DEAD... which speaks of "this life"... and if in "this life" ONLY we have hope, we are of all men most miserable... for "to be" PHYSICALLY ALIVE is still "to be" DEAD...
o~Jesus was Led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil ( carnal mind ). Read Matthew Chap.4.v. 1 through 11. Jesus was tested in three areas , as we all are. v. 3 command that these stones ( law of sin and death ) ...be made bread. ( word of God ), Jesus is the bread of life. He was tempted a second time from v. 5 through 7. A third time from v. 8 through 11. Now read 1 John Chap.2. v. 16 For all that is in the world the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. The first test was the lust of the eyes, The second test was ,the lust of the flesh, And the third test was the pride of life. Now the things in the world are ok. The problem is when they begin to rule you. The wilderness is within our soul. You cannot die to the carnal mind in Egypt ( bondage ). You must go into the wilderness. The battle is between our ears, Life and death is in the power of the tongue.~
Yes, I understand your position on Satan. I disagree with it, but I understand it.
But didn't I already address the five senses?
WE WALK BY FAITH, NOT BY SIGHT. [2 Cor 5:7]
Satan is below our feet, and our head in the heavenlies with Christ.
So, what's to fear? Jesus has already conquered the world for us.
Death is no longer a concern because he has given us eternal life.
Quote from: Molly on October 27, 2011, 08:15:35 PM
Yes, I understand your position on Satan. I disagree with it, but I understand it.
But didn't I already address the five senses?
WE WALK BY FAITH, NOT BY SIGHT. [2 Cor 5:7]
Satan is below our feet, and our head in the heavenlies with Christ.
So, what's to fear? Jesus has already conquered the world for us.
Death is no longer a concern because he has given us eternal life.
Molly I was sharing some thoughts come the serpent who some believe is a Mythical monster~ No debate needed# but for me its just another lie~
Blessings~
Quote from: Taffy on October 27, 2011, 08:17:25 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 27, 2011, 08:15:35 PM
Yes, I understand your position on Satan. I disagree with it, but I understand it.
But didn't I already address the five senses?
WE WALK BY FAITH, NOT BY SIGHT. [2 Cor 5:7]
Satan is below our feet, and our head in the heavenlies with Christ.
So, what's to fear? Jesus has already conquered the world for us.
Death is no longer a concern because he has given us eternal life.
Molly I was sharing some thoughts come the serpent who some believe is a Mythical monster~ No debate needed# but for me its just another lie~
Blessings~
I understand. :HeartThrob:
But I still have to live this life and each day I have to walk by faith, not by sight.
Because if I walked by sight, I would have given it up a long time ago. lol
QuoteAnd, if I walked by sight, I would have given it up a long time ago
:HeartThrob: :icon_flower:
Because God's children are human beings--made of flesh and blood--the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had the power of death
Only in this way could he set free all who have lived their lives as slaves to the fear of dying. [Heb 2:14, 15]
We have been given eternal life by Jesus.
Therefore, live as though you are living forever, because you are.
Quote from: Molly on October 27, 2011, 08:29:36 PM
Because God's children are human beings--made of flesh and blood--the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had the power of death
Only in this way could he set free all who have lived their lives as slaves to the fear of dying. [Heb 2:14, 15]
We have been given eternal life by Jesus.
Therefore, live as though you are living forever, because you are.
amen Molly there only two scrpis which refer to the POWER of Death, the devil = carnal mind= Flesh on MAN= the other is in the POWER of the Tongue+~Life and DEATH are In the power of the Tongue, again its time to Divide## the carnal minded man shown in type as those of the LAW spoke the The minsitry of DEATH, those\WE speak the GOOD NEWS of the LIFE who is#~it correlates~
Shalom~
Quote from: Taffy on October 27, 2011, 07:41:10 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 27, 2011, 07:32:41 PM
NOW that we know — Come quickly LORD JESUS!
Mar 4:37 And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full.
Mar 4:38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?
Mar 4:39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.
Mar 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?
Mar 4:41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?
Shalom~
How do WE awake the Master?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 27, 2011, 09:49:56 PM
Quote from: Taffy on October 27, 2011, 07:41:10 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 27, 2011, 07:32:41 PM
NOW that we know — Come quickly LORD JESUS!
Mar 4:37 And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full.
Mar 4:38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?
Mar 4:39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.
Mar 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?
Mar 4:41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?
Shalom~
How do WE awake the Master?
BY the Faith HE GIVES US~ :icon_flower:
Psalm 44:23;
Awake, O Lord!
Why do you sleep?
Rouse yourself!
Do not reject us forever.
Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
Shake thyself from the dust; arise, [and] sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.
:HeartThrob:
2 Chronicles 5:13
It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;
Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2011, 11:49:10 PM
2 Chronicles 5:13
It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on October 27, 2011, 11:48:32 PM
Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
:HeartThrob:
Genesis 7:16;
A male and female of each kind entered, just as God had commanded Noah.
Then the LORD closed the door behind them.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 27, 2011, 11:52:16 PM
Quote from: Taffy on October 27, 2011, 11:48:32 PM
Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
:HeartThrob:
Genesis 7:16;
A male and female of each kind entered, just as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD closed the door behind them.
HIS PLACE of """""REST""""""""~
The truth never changes, only our perspective can. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on October 27, 2011, 11:48:32 PM
Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
:HeartThrob:
Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.
indeed# the First Born is the carnal Mind, the liar and muderer from the Beginning~ SO~A good name [is] better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.# Selah~ :icon_flower:
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1 John 1
2. Hereby-"Herein."
know . the Spirit of God-whether he be, or not, in those teachers professing to be moved by Him.
Every spirit-that is, Every teacher claiming inspiration by the Holy Spirit.
confesseth-The truth is taken for granted as established. Man is required to confess it, that is, in his teaching to profess it openly.
Jesus Christ is come in the flesh-a twofold truth confessed, that Jesus is the Christ, and that He is come (the Greek perfect tense implies not a mere past historical fact, as the aorist would, but also the present continuance of the fact and its blessed effects) in the flesh ("clothed with flesh": not with a mere seeming humanity, as the Docetæ afterwards taught: He therefore was, previously, something far above flesh). His flesh implies His death for us, for only by assuming flesh could He die (for as God He could not), Heb 2:9, 10, 14, 16; and His death implies His LOVE for us (Joh 15:13). To deny the reality of His flesh is to deny His love, and so cast away the root which produces all true love on the believer's part (1Jo 4:9-11, 19).
--Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
[that] "confesses"
G3670
ὁμολογέω
homologeō
hom-ol-og-eh'-o
From a compound of the base of G3674 and G3056; to assent, that is, covenant, acknowledge: - con- (pro-) fess, confession is made, give thanks, promise.
This word homologeo is a covenant word, from two words, homou--the same--and logos--mind of Christ. This 'confession' comes from the same mind [logos]
as Christ--homologeo--Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.
Come in the flesh, he thus is able to sanctify this tabernacle that we are currently living in.
1 Corinthians 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
Quote from: Molly on October 28, 2011, 02:14:21 AM
Come in the flesh, he thus is able to sanctify this tabernacle that we are currently living in.
I'm on the edge of my seat!
Knowing this — it must have been torture for the first apostles — aware that they were born out of season.
...although, sometimes deep in my spirit, I wonder if John "made it!"
And, where I am, there shall also my servant be. Jn 12:26
I would say John would likely made it more than the others, whom Jesus loved.
do anyone wonder why John was Given To Tend for HIS natural Mother after HIS cricifixion, and Not James? or maybe why was It John[ Beloved of God~] given the Revelation of Christ?
James=jacob
i THINK HE WAS TO SIGNIFY THE ELIJAH SPIRIT THAT WAS TO COME....THE REVELATION OF CHRIST FOR OUR DAY PROPHESY'S
Quote from: sheila on October 28, 2011, 09:52:56 PM
i THINK HE WAS TO SIGNIFY THE ELIJAH SPIRIT THAT WAS TO COME....THE REVELATION OF CHRIST FOR OUR DAY PROPHESY'S
:icon_flower:
The Master in the boat(fellow-ship)was never asleep as He is not asleep today. No need to wake Him, we just need to KNOW.
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 29, 2011, 03:49:00 AM
The Master in the boat(fellow-ship)was never asleep as He is not asleep today. No need to wake Him, we just need to KNOW.
oh He sleeps till the removing of the veil# Each man in HIS Own Order#He hidesbehind the veil, till made awake## the ilusion of MEN is the veil
Shalom~
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 29, 2011, 03:49:00 AM
The Master in the boat(fellow-ship)was never asleep as He is not asleep today. No need to wake Him, we just need to KNOW.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 03:52:53 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 29, 2011, 03:49:00 AM
The Master in the boat(fellow-ship)was never asleep as He is not asleep today. No need to wake Him, we just need to KNOW.
oh He sleeps till the removing of the veil# Each man in HIS Own Order#He hidesbehind the veil, till made awake## the ilusion of MEN is the veil
Shalom~
We sleep, he doesn't.
He who keeps Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps. [Psa 121:4]
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2011, 03:54:20 AM
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 03:52:53 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 29, 2011, 03:49:00 AM
The Master in the boat(fellow-ship)was never asleep as He is not asleep today. No need to wake Him, we just need to KNOW.
oh He sleeps till the removing of the veil# Each man in HIS Own Order#He hidesbehind the veil, till made awake## the ilusion of MEN is the veil
Shalom~
We sleep, he doesn't.
He who keeps Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps. [Psa 121:4]
dARKNESS AND lIGHT are the same to thee~~ even so, To sleep he remains DEAD, until made awake~~ how many do you KNOW he lays asleep in, and are NOT AWARE WHO HE IS~~lets talk reality~ Dead In us~ doesnt mea HES DEAD AS HES LIFE~
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 03:59:50 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2011, 03:54:20 AM
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 03:52:53 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 29, 2011, 03:49:00 AM
The Master in the boat(fellow-ship)was never asleep as He is not asleep today. No need to wake Him, we just need to KNOW.
oh He sleeps till the removing of the veil# Each man in HIS Own Order#He hidesbehind the veil, till made awake## the ilusion of MEN is the veil
Shalom~
We sleep, he doesn't.
He who keeps Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps. [Psa 121:4]
dARKNESS AND lIGHT are the same to thee~~ even so, To sleep he remains DEAD, until made awake~~ how many do you KNOW he lays asleep in, and are NOT AWARE WHO HE IS~~lets talk reality~ Dead In us~ doesnt mea HES DEAD AS HES LIFE~
I'm just sayin'
He was always there, even when I didn't know it.
But, I could see it in retrospect. I was dead. He wasn't.
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 04:05:42 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2011, 04:04:35 AM
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 03:59:50 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2011, 03:54:20 AM
Quote from: Taffy on October 29, 2011, 03:52:53 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 29, 2011, 03:49:00 AM
The Master in the boat(fellow-ship)was never asleep as He is not asleep today. No need to wake Him, we just need to KNOW.
oh He sleeps till the removing of the veil# Each man in HIS Own Order#He hidesbehind the veil, till made awake## the ilusion of MEN is the veil
Shalom~
We sleep, he doesn't.
He who keeps Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps. [Psa 121:4]
dARKNESS AND lIGHT are the same to thee~~ even so, To sleep he remains DEAD, until made awake~~ how many do you KNOW he lays asleep in, and are NOT AWARE WHO HE IS~~lets talk reality~ Dead In us~ doesnt mea HES DEAD AS HES LIFE~
I'm just sayin'
He was always there, even when I didn't know it.
But, I could see it in retrospect. I was dead. He wasn't.
Molly you always seem to be splitting Hairs~ Peace and Shalom~
I guess because I see it as a theological point. It makes a difference to me.
Psalm 121
1I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.
2My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth.
3He will not suffer thy foot to be moved: he that keepeth thee will not slumber.
4Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.
5The LORD is thy keeper: the LORD is thy shade upon thy right hand.
6The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night.
7The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.
8The LORD shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore
Quote from: Molly on October 27, 2011, 07:59:15 PM
Quote from: Taffy on October 27, 2011, 07:53:36 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 27, 2011, 07:51:45 PM
It's not just the carnal mind. We believers in Christ are going to live forever--he has given us eternal life.
Therefore, we do not have to live in fear of death anymore, because he has conquered death for us.
wqhat do you mean Its not just the carnal mind# expound some?
You seem to focus only on this life and only on the carnal mind.
I'm not even sure what you mean by the carnal mind.
We Christians have already moved beyond it though, I think, because there is now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus...
We walk by faith, not by sight.
we are already walking after the Spirit.
And, when this life is over, we will live with him forever.
I think that is the deception Molly. Many claim they walk in faith without fully comprehending what faith actually is. I totally agree with the "no condemnation" toward ANYONE . . .that's just the nature of Christ in us to do so. But we all still have serpents in our gardens because we all have the two trees in us, one of life (spirit) one of knowledge (flesh). Eve was tempted by the serpent in the tree of knowledge, which as Taf now illuminates, that it really pertains to physical engagement (learn by experience) which completely fits with the fact that knowledge also pertains to the exact same thing. it learns by experience. Only our spirit grows by way of revelation. The more we feed our serpent the more it matures into the dragon Revelation speaks of.
Eve was tempted by the serpent and gave in to it. Jesus was tempted by the same serpent and over came it. Note also when he "was" tempted, he "did" quote Scripture, but it wasn't until he personally made a command that the tempter retracted. And ONLY FOR A SEASON. Which is also interesting. Back to that "man can not live on bread alone" thing . . .Jesus quoted Scripture and all it did was cause the tempter to try a different angle. But the moment he engaged in the authority from within, the tempter withered instantly.
I still think that there's just a morbid sense about this Satan/devil belief out there in that God is love but yet he still lets this evil, destructive, horrific being run around loose among the very beings his Son died for . . .once again . . .does that REALLY fit the nature of God? So, we don't believe in eternal hell, but we "do" agree that this devil can still torture the living??? What's the difference whether the torture is on this earth or in the next life? God created this evil force so it can use everything in it's power to humiliate, deteriorate and completely tear us down . . .all for the purpose that He (God) gets the credit for bringing us back up. You don't find that the least bid morbid?
Morbid?
He would thereby be the most proud, egotistical, conceited, self-centered, and vainglorious personality in the universe.
Whats the difference if He created an actual devil to torment us or our minds? Both could be seen as morbid.
Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away.
He created us with our minds, aka "satan". I don't see how that is any less cruel by God than creating an outside agent.
Quote from: redhotmagma on November 02, 2011, 10:39:38 PM
He created us with our minds, aka "satan". I don't see how that is any less cruel by God than creating an outside agent.
:icon_flower: Amen Friend~
The difference is, where we are in this carnality is not God's choosing. Did he create carnality? He created the universe in it's balance. WE took that balance and perverted it. Carnality is what it is because WE left the tree of life for it. That's why it went from a serpent . . .in which Jesus states we can WALK ON and NOT BE HARMED . . .but because of us, we fed the serpent until it's become a dragon . . .God didn't create the dragon, WE DID.
So yeah, there's a huge difference between thinking that God created Satan as an evil being set out to seek and destroy, and thinking that due to our over-emphasizing only specific aspects of the overall divine design of life, WE are the ones that let the lion loose, seeking whom it may devour.
There was a question along these same lines pertaining to Job and the setting there . . .my question back to that is, if God is a purifiying presence just by nature . . which I believe it truly is . . .death can not be in his presence . . .then how could it be that this satan tradition has inflated, can come and go from God's presence and NOT be affected by him at all? Who is more powerful here . . .God? Or their version of satan??
Satan does have a lot of power, and is very dangerous, especially in these end times, as he knows his time is short.
So should we underestimate that? I don't think so.
People have gone to sleep, have stopped being vigilant, and look at what has happened.
When they wake up they are going to be furious at how they have been duped.
But whose fault is that? God's or theirs?
Quote from: Nathan on November 03, 2011, 03:02:05 PM
The difference is, where we are in this carnality is not God's choosing. Did he create carnality? He created the universe in it's balance. WE took that balance and perverted it. Carnality is what it is because WE left the tree of life for it. That's why it went from a serpent . . .in which Jesus states we can WALK ON and NOT BE HARMED . . .but because of us, we fed the serpent until it's become a dragon . . .God didn't create the dragon, WE DID.
So yeah, there's a huge difference between thinking that God created Satan as an evil being set out to seek and destroy, and thinking that due to our over-emphasizing only specific aspects of the overall divine design of life, WE are the ones that let the lion loose, seeking whom it may devour.
There was a question along these same lines pertaining to Job and the setting there . . .my question back to that is, if God is a purifiying presence just by nature . . which I believe it truly is . . .death can not be in his presence . . .then how could it be that this satan tradition has inflated, can come and go from God's presence and NOT be affected by him at all? Who is more powerful here . . .God? Or their version of satan??
We could substitute Lucifer in to your response here and get the same conclusion God didn't create him that way He became the devil. Also that still doesn't take away the fact that God created the ability for the carnal mind to take over. If the potential is there He created it. You said God didn't create the dragon we did, well He created the serpent then, if it is the mind He's still the first cause.
I'm just playing carnal minds advocate here :winkgrin:
Yes. What puzzles me is that some find an entity of a dragon, repulsive and a misrepresentation of God, but yet are willing to entertain the idea of the same entity within their own minds, the adversary, created by God.
Quote from: redhotmagma on November 03, 2011, 09:07:19 PM
Quote from: Nathan on November 03, 2011, 03:02:05 PM
The difference is, where we are in this carnality is not God's choosing. Did he create carnality? He created the universe in it's balance. WE took that balance and perverted it. Carnality is what it is because WE left the tree of life for it. That's why it went from a serpent . . .in which Jesus states we can WALK ON and NOT BE HARMED . . .but because of us, we fed the serpent until it's become a dragon . . .God didn't create the dragon, WE DID.
So yeah, there's a huge difference between thinking that God created Satan as an evil being set out to seek and destroy, and thinking that due to our over-emphasizing only specific aspects of the overall divine design of life, WE are the ones that let the lion loose, seeking whom it may devour.
There was a question along these same lines pertaining to Job and the setting there . . .my question back to that is, if God is a purifiying presence just by nature . . which I believe it truly is . . .death can not be in his presence . . .then how could it be that this satan tradition has inflated, can come and go from God's presence and NOT be affected by him at all? Who is more powerful here . . .God? Or their version of satan??
We could substitute Lucifer in to your response here and get the same conclusion God didn't create him that way He became the devil. Also that still doesn't take away the fact that God created the ability for the carnal mind to take over. If the potential is there He created it. You said God didn't create the dragon we did, well He created the serpent then, if it is the mind He's still the first cause.
I'm just playing carnal minds advocate here :winkgrin:
Oh yeah . . . you could easily substitute Lucifer there . . but . . .for me it's because Lucifer isn't the devil as tradition holds. I believe Lucifer is Adam . . .
How about this analogy . . .God created a battery. Inside it is all the power that runs the earth. But in order for us to tap into that power, we have to take a hold of both the positve and the negative. But the moment the negative cable is approached, it becomes the emphasis. But the purpose of it is to bring balance to the entire circutry.
So, you want to embrace satan but no eternal hell? What happens to satan in the end then? Because that's one of the bigger cheers the ET'rs carry around with them as they boast of his destruction along with all those other lost souls who are going to get what they got coming to them.
How can you justify no hell but still hang on to satan?
Well as usual and probably for the better I am LOST again.
Nathan I'm not embracing Satan, I actually am up in the air here. I'm just saying that your reasoning seems flawed. By lucifer I meant the standard interpretation. You're saying we created the dragon God didn't. Ok but God created the mind which you claim is the serpent that becomes the dragon. Now instead of mind put angel, and instead of dragon put the devil. The scenario is the same thing as far as God's culpability in it.
I DO NOT believe lucifer is satan, but is Adam, I'm not so sure about whether satan is an outside spirit or our mind.
Also you said that God didn't create darkness, or an evil being
Isa 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil; I, the LORD, do all these things .’
I'm not trying to nit pick here, just understand
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
The Lord did Indeed Create Darkness[ Ignorance] as The earth he created was IN DARKNESS## ALL things COMEfrom HIM##Im sure Nate will have his own say ~ But Darkness and Light are the Same to The [ Lord]
~
Darkness came through the carnal Mind who HE MADE~
Quote from: Taffy on November 04, 2011, 02:50:27 AM
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
The Lord did Indeed Create Darkness[ Ignorance] as The earth he created was IN DARKNESS## ALL things COMEfrom HIM##Im sure Nate will have his own say ~ But Darkness and Light are the Same to The [ Lord]
~
Darkness came through the carnal Mind who HE MADE~
Friend you certainly do have a way at looking at things. You might want to clean your speck's once in awhile. Just a thought.
Darkness is only ignorance when you see things from the earthy. Darkness is only LIGHT at its lowest lumen.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 04, 2011, 03:08:12 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 04, 2011, 02:50:27 AM
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
The Lord did Indeed Create Darkness[ Ignorance] as The earth he created was IN DARKNESS## ALL things COMEfrom HIM##Im sure Nate will have his own say ~ But Darkness and Light are the Same to The [ Lord]
~
Darkness came through the carnal Mind who HE MADE~
Friend you certainly do have a way at looking at things. You might want to clean your speck's once in awhile. Just a thought.
Darkness is only ignorance when you see things from the earthy. Darkness is only LIGHT at its lowest lumen.
and who created it?~Iask a SIMPLE QUESTION~WHO?
You are not really asking me who created darkness are you? I mean are you?
what was discussed Micah was Darkness , if you have been following the Previous couple Of Posts~~ but if you Have a Direct question please share?
Darkness and Light
Exodus 14:19-21 (Amplified Bible)
19 And the Angel of God Who went before the host of Israel moved and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before them and stood behind them,
20 Coming between the host of Egypt and the host of Israel. It was a cloud and darkness to the Egyptians, but it gave light by night to the Israelites; and the one host did not come near the other all night.
21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night and made the sea dry land; and the waters were divided.
Exodus 20:20-22 (Amplified Bible)
20And Moses said to the people, Fear not; for God has come to prove you, so that the reverential fear of Him may be before you, that you may not sin.
21 And the people stood afar off, but Moses drew near to the thick darkness where God was.
22 And the Lord said to Moses, Thus shall you say to the Israelites, You have seen for yourselves that I have talked with you from heaven.
Deuteronomy 5:22-24 (Amplified Bible)
22 These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He spoke not again [added no more]. He wrote them on two tables of stone and gave them to me [Moses].
23 And when you heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, while the mountain was burning with fire, you came near me, all the heads of your tribes and your elders;
24 And you said, Behold, the Lord our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice out of the midst of the fire; we have this day seen that God speaks with man and man still lives.
THE UNVEILING OF JESUS CHRIST (CLV)
4 And they shall be seeing His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads.
5 And night shall be no more, and they have no need of lamplight and sunlight, for the Lord God shall be illuminating them.
And they shall be reigning for the eons of the eons.
6 And he said to me, "These sayings are faithful and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, commissions His messenger to show to His slaves what must occur swiftly.
Quote from: Taffy on November 04, 2011, 03:19:32 AM
what was discussed Micah was Darkness , if you have been following the Previous couple Of Posts~~ but if you Have a Direct question please share?
No not really. I have found that one just has to throw something in and let it bounce. It has been my experience that the main post has really nothing to do with the discussion, most times the thread is lost after about 4-5 posts. So no, not really.
Let me see "SERPENT Means "To learn from experience"?
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 04, 2011, 04:32:33 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 04, 2011, 03:19:32 AM
what was discussed Micah was Darkness , if you have been following the Previous couple Of Posts~~ but if you Have a Direct question please share?
No not really. I have found that one just has to throw something in and let it bounce. It has been my experience that the main post has really nothing to do with the discussion, most times the thread is lost after about 4-5 posts. So no, not really.
Let me see "SERPENT Means "To learn from experience"?
Topics diverse as Christ is ONE HUGE subject## so let them Flow where the spirit leads Us~but that JUST me,not the general rule of thumb of this Forum~well I suppose this is the thread I was given to start so Flow My man~
well again Look to the Root word Dear Scholar and I find we see it means to Learn by e3xperience or diligently Observe~
Deceitful speech.
The cloven tongue confused in Genesis, and the cloven tongue confuses today.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2011, 04:41:00 AM
Deceitful speech.
The cloven tongue confused in Genesis, and the cloven tongue confuses today.
the Tongue which Breathes Lies~who believe its TRUTH# such is the DRUG of witchcraft and the bewitched MIND~
Yeah now I can dig that! Hey, not to be frivolous but what is the "#" mean in your posts?
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 04, 2011, 05:13:03 AM
Yeah now I can dig that! Hey, not to be frivolous but what is the "#" mean in your posts?
My uncrontrolled Digit pressing the wrong KEY~ it needs Training
serpent, lol,
forked tongue!
...so obvious!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2011, 05:24:21 AM
serpent, lol,
forked tongue!
:sigh:................................................................................ :laughing7:
I know micah, I know.
I hear a guy say this the other day, not heard this before but interesting idea, which is that Adam failed to subdue the Animals, the serpent was one of those animals, which allowed the serpent to seduce Eve.
Quote from: thinktank on November 04, 2011, 08:59:35 PM
I hear a guy say this the other day, not heard this before but interesting idea, which is that Adam failed to subdue the Animals, the serpent was one of those animals, which allowed the serpent to seduce Eve.
I was about to say "duh," but.....that is an interesting point; this "dominion or charge" was given in chp. 1 which in my reasoning has not yet been completed. Thanks
Quote from: thinktank on November 04, 2011, 08:59:35 PM
I hear a guy say this the other day, not heard this before but interesting idea, which is that Adam failed to subdue the Animals, the serpent was one of those animals, which allowed the serpent to seduce Eve.
The serpent was the only one who could speak.
All the others were dumb animals.
That is a really interesting observation, Beloved Servant.
It's so obvious but I never thought about it before lol.
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2011, 11:44:28 PM
That is a really interesting observation, Beloved Servant.
It's so obvious but I never thought about it before lol.
Yes it is Molly, and it is so obvious we had not seen it! Beloved posted, "The serpent was the only one who could speak."
I ask this question pertaining to that, I may show my lack of intelligence, Gen 1:3 And
God said—Light, be, And light was.
Is this "said" what we understand t be our way of speaking? The same word is used in Gen. 3:1 what Im considering is was this an actual dialogue as we understand it?
But it is and interesting study. HELP :bigGrin:
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 05, 2011, 12:31:58 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2011, 11:44:28 PM
That is a really interesting observation, Beloved Servant.
It's so obvious but I never thought about it before lol.
Yes it is Molly, and it is so obvious we had not seen it! Beloved posted, "The serpent was the only one who could speak."
I ask this question pertaining to that, I may show my lack of intelligence, Gen 1:3 And God said—Light, be, And light was.
Is this "said" what we understand t be our way of speaking? The same word is used in Gen. 3:1 what Im considering is was this an actual dialogue as we understand it?
But it is and interesting study. HELP :bigGrin:
I think it shows how very powerful words are. And, that powerful beings have the ability to speak, and to speak things into existence. Adam was a powerful being since he had language, as was Satan, and the sons of God in Job, and of course God himself who spoke the world into existence.
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and
calleth those things which be not as though they were. [Rom 4:17]
"calleth"G2564
καλέω
kaleō
kal-eh'-o
Akin to the base of G2753;
to "call" (properly aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise): - bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-) name (was [called]).
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 27, 2011, 11:52:16 PM
Quote from: Taffy on October 27, 2011, 11:48:32 PM
Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
:HeartThrob:
Genesis 7:16;
A male and female of each kind entered, just as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD closed the door behind them.
:cloud9: AMEN, the "rib" is to return, and He will close up his side (door). The veil (door) was rent, so that "she" could return. The foundation of the church/ecclesia is built upon the apostles and prophets (two). First it happens within (each individual), then without (and the two became one flesh), the invisible taking on visibility. Blessings....
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 28, 2011, 03:06:19 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 28, 2011, 02:14:21 AM
Come in the flesh, he thus is able to sanctify this tabernacle that we are currently living in.
I'm on the edge of my seat!
Knowing this — it must have been torture for the first apostles — aware that they were born out of season.
:cloud9: Amen; I've often had this thought. I believe this is what Paul was relating to when he asked to be freed from the thorn in his flesh (carnal mind). He was out of season, in the age of grace GIVEN, but NOT YET PERFECTED (the 7th day). When that which is PERFECT IS COME.......Blessings.... :HeartThrob:
:cloud9: @ Taffy......and "demon" means, "a knowing one". Fallen angels.....hmmm...... :winkgrin:
Adios :sigh:
Quote from: Cardinal on November 05, 2011, 03:14:16 PM
:cloud9: @ Taffy......and "demon" means, "a knowing one". Fallen angels.....hmmm...... :winkgrin:
"The word demon comes from the ancient root "da", meaning the knowing ones. From the beginning, the demons knew who Jesus was and they knew something about His mission here on earth."
Luke 4:33-35. "In the synagogue there was a man possessed by a demon, an evil spirit. He cried out at the top of his voice, 'Ha! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are -- the Holy One of God!'
'Be quiet!' Jesus said sternly. 'Come out of him!' Then the demon threw the man down before them all and came out without injuring him.
Where oh where is Cardinal and when will she come back to us? :sigh:
Quote from: Cardinal on November 05, 2011, 03:14:16 PM
:cloud9: @ Taffy......and "demon" means, "a knowing one". Fallen angels.....hmmm...... :winkgrin:
Babylon , the habitation of Demons has Fallen, No more mixing causing confusion being the slain Cain :icon_flower:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on November 05, 2011, 03:30:42 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 05, 2011, 03:14:16 PM
:cloud9: @ Taffy......and "demon" means, "a knowing one". Fallen angels.....hmmm...... :winkgrin:
"The word demon comes from the ancient root "da", meaning the knowing ones. From the beginning, the demons knew who Jesus was and they knew something about His mission here on earth."
Luke 4:33-35. "In the synagogue there was a man possessed by a demon, an evil spirit. He cried out at the top of his voice, 'Ha! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are -- the Holy One of God!'
'Be quiet!' Jesus said sternly. 'Come out of him!' Then the demon threw the man down before them all and came out without injuring him.
Where oh where is Cardinal and when will she come back to us? :sigh:
Legion# for we many[ after the Flesh, the SON ommited] each seed\Flesh produces after its own Kind, The Pigs[ carnal Flesh, also a symbol of the pharisees, :icon_flower:
he who can control the tongue...is a perfect man
Quote from: sheila on November 05, 2011, 04:44:18 PM
he who can control the tongue...is a perfect man
Met or know any?
we have a 'helper'...the Holy spirit....he does not speak on his own
I was thinking of some of the above posts....and their 'knowing' their lies would not prevail against Father and Son and truth......... TRUTH IS A GREAT LIGHT!!
lies..beleived...is a great darkness..worked of the kingdom of darkness
Quote from: sheila on November 05, 2011, 05:07:16 PM
I was thinking of some of the above posts....and their 'knowing' their lies would not prevail against Father and Son and truth......... TRUTH IS A GREAT LIGHT!!
lies..beleived...is a great darkness..worked of the kingdom of darkness
Amen Sheila! And somehow this post got back on line with the opening post!
Quote from: sheila on November 05, 2011, 05:07:16 PM
I was thinking of some of the above posts....and their 'knowing' their lies would not prevail against Father and Son and truth......... TRUTH IS A GREAT LIGHT!!
lies..beleived...is a great darkness..worked of the kingdom of darkness
:icon_flower:
TRUTH \Light is The Revelation of HIM,# as we wake from sleep ,HIS Unfolding Fire[LOVE\TRUTH] , comes via a TWINKLING[ Light] of the EYE[ Understanding]
The LIGHT[ HIM] of the BODY is the EYE[ understanding] , when the EYE is {WHOLE] the Body is Full of Liight= Truth, when thy eye[ understanding ]is in Darkness[ Ignorance\lie] your BODY is Full of DARKNESS~
~ How can Darkness see LIGHT~ as Darkness is the ABSENCE of LIGHT~ :icon_flower:
for LOVE IS AS STRONG AS DEATH IT'S JEALOUSY AS UNYIELDING AS THE GRAVE
IT BURNS LIKE BLAZING FIRE LIKE A MIGHTY FLAME MANY WATERS CAN NOT QUENCH LOVE
Quote from: sheila on November 05, 2011, 05:36:13 PM
for LOVE IS AS STRONG AS DEATH IT'S JEALOUSY AS UNYIELDING AS THE GRAVE
IT BURNS LIKE BLAZING FIRE LIKE A MIGHTY FLAME MANY WATERS CAN NOT QUENCH LOVE
HIS HEDGE of the everlasting Flame[ Love] around US and In US~ :HeartThrob:
....THEY MARCHED ACROSS THE BREADTH OF THE EARTH AND SURROUNDED THE CAMP OF THE CITY HE LOVES
BUT FIRE COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN AND DEVOURED THEM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 05, 2011, 05:19:33 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 05, 2011, 05:07:16 PM
I was thinking of some of the above posts....and their 'knowing' their lies would not prevail against Father and Son and truth......... TRUTH IS A GREAT LIGHT!!
lies..beleived...is a great darkness..worked of the kingdom of darkness
Amen Sheila! And somehow this post got back on line with the opening post!
Oops! Was I wrong about back to the opening post :sigh:
NAH IT'S STILL ON TOPIC,MICAH...
BORN INTO SURROUNDING LIES AND DECEPTION...HIS FIRE OF LOVE BURNS UP THAT WHICH HAS SURROUNDED ALL US IN DARKNESS
As the fire burns wood, and as the flame sets the mountains on fire; He shall make his angels as Spirits , Ministers of Flame~ :icon_flower:
Proverbs 16:11;
A just beam and balances are Jehovah's, His work are all the stones of the bag.
Quote from: Taffy on November 05, 2011, 05:23:44 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 05, 2011, 05:07:16 PM
I was thinking of some of the above posts....and their 'knowing' their lies would not prevail against Father and Son and truth......... TRUTH IS A GREAT LIGHT!!
lies..beleived...is a great darkness..worked of the kingdom of darkness
:icon_flower:
TRUTH \Light is The Revelation of HIM,# as we wake from sleep ,HIS Unfolding Fire[LOVE\TRUTH] , comes via a TWINKLING[ Light] of the EYE[ Understanding]
The LIGHT[ HIM] of the BODY is the EYE[ understanding] , when the EYE is {WHOLE] the Body is Full of Liight= Truth, when thy eye[ understanding ]is in Darkness[ Ignorance\lie] your BODY is Full of DARKNESS~
~ How can Darkness see LIGHT~ as Darkness is the ABSENCE of LIGHT~ :icon_flower:
Darkness is LIGHT at its lowest lumen :icon_flower:
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 05, 2011, 06:45:47 PM
Quote from: Taffy on November 05, 2011, 05:23:44 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 05, 2011, 05:07:16 PM
I was thinking of some of the above posts....and their 'knowing' their lies would not prevail against Father and Son and truth......... TRUTH IS A GREAT LIGHT!!
lies..beleived...is a great darkness..worked of the kingdom of darkness
:icon_flower:
TRUTH \Light is The Revelation of HIM,# as we wake from sleep ,HIS Unfolding Fire[LOVE\TRUTH] , comes via a TWINKLING[ Light] of the EYE[ Understanding]
The LIGHT[ HIM] of the BODY is the EYE[ understanding] , when the EYE is {WHOLE] the Body is Full of Liight= Truth, when thy eye[ understanding ]is in Darkness[ Ignorance\lie] your BODY is Full of DARKNESS~
~ How can Darkness see LIGHT~ as Darkness is the ABSENCE of LIGHT~ :icon_flower:
Darkness is LIGHT at its lowest lumen :icon_flower:
Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light [are] both alike [to thee]. Light and Darkness the SAME to THEE~?MMMM
Quote from: sheila on November 05, 2011, 06:26:23 PM
NAH IT'S STILL ON TOPIC,MICAH...
BORN INTO SURROUNDING LIES AND DECEPTION...HIS FIRE OF LOVE BURNS UP THAT WHICH HAS SURROUNDED ALL US IN DARKNESS
Well I just went back and looked at the posts from the OP and if this post is still on the topic, then its like a room full of ping pong balls being blown around from strong blasts of wind forced in from all directions! But then again maybe it is and were all learning by experience :Oops: :dunno: :eek:
if the light that be in thee,be darkness,how great is that darkness
for satan transform himself..into an angel of light
see...back on topic
Quote from: Micahthen its like a room full of ping pong balls being blown around from strong blasts of wind forced in from all directions!
This board is fun, huh? :winkgrin:
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
[John 3:8]
http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=5172
Quote from: Molly on November 05, 2011, 06:58:46 PM
Quote from: Micahthen its like a room full of ping pong balls being blown around from strong blasts of wind forced in from all directions!
This board is fun, huh? :winkgrin:
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
[John 3:8]
Only thing though, a good part of the time it is "our" wind which at times can be "hot air." And we are all vulnerable.
Quote from: sheila on November 05, 2011, 06:56:29 PM
if the light that be in thee,be darkness,how great is that darkness
for satan transform himself..into an angel of light
see...back on topic
If you say so. :icon_flower: :HeartThrob: :bgdance: :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 05, 2011, 07:02:15 PM
http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=5172
Above link is — on topic!
...good find,Beloved
for as lightening coming from the east is visible even in the west..so to will be the coming of the Son of Man
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 05, 2011, 07:05:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 05, 2011, 06:58:46 PM
Quote from: Micahthen its like a room full of ping pong balls being blown around from strong blasts of wind forced in from all directions!
This board is fun, huh? :winkgrin:
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
[John 3:8]
Only thing though, a good part of the time it is "our" wind which at times can be "hot air." And we are all vulnerable.
Are you the wind police? :winkgrin:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 05, 2011, 07:10:22 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 05, 2011, 07:02:15 PM
http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=5172
Above link is — on topic!
The "serpent" is a verb, not a noun!
An action rather than a thing!
there is no law against the spirit.....and the Lord does away with the lawless one with the breath of His coming...
nothing but chaff on His threshing floor..this constant nit-picking and badgering and faultfinding..due to be BLOWN AWAY by a mighty wind...
The word that Beloved Servant gave us is strong's H5172.
But the word of Gen 3:1 is strong's H5175 which is a noun.
Still, Beloved gets 10 points for being ON TOPIC. :winkgrin:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 05, 2011, 07:23:57 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 05, 2011, 07:16:32 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 05, 2011, 07:15:20 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 05, 2011, 07:10:22 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 05, 2011, 07:02:15 PM
http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=5172
Above link is — on topic!
The "serpent" is a verb, not a noun!
An action rather than a thing!
It's also a noun.
Not according to the above link.
It's a verb.
It's the wrong word.
"serpent"H5175נחשׁ
nâchâsh
naw-khawsh'
From H5172; a snake (from its hiss): - serpent.
.
The word is listed as a verb.
hey, maybe it's a thing that causes an action :grin:
Quote from: sheila on November 05, 2011, 07:59:37 PM
hey, maybe it's a thing that causes an action :grin:
heres a question~ WE KNOW THE lord causes the Lying spirit within Men# He also becomes the Nature of the satan Himself being mans adversary~So wheres Satan in all this~ then of course we Have the old Serpent called the devil taking His part in the The Flame along with the False prophet~~~~? if [ which HE DOES]the Lord control ALL spirits Lying[ opposing]and beComes mans adversary~ can some Please tell me why He needs another entity to do it~?
Quote from: Taffy on November 05, 2011, 09:42:36 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 05, 2011, 07:59:37 PM
hey, maybe it's a thing that causes an action :grin:
heres a question~ WE KNOW THE lord causes the Lying spirit within Men# He also becomes the Nature of the satan Himself being mans adversary~So wheres Satan in all this~ then of course we Have the old Serpent called the devil taking His part in the The Flame along with the False prophet~~~~? if [ which HE DOES]the Lord control ALL spirits Lying[ opposing]and beComes mans adversary~ can some Please tell me why He needs another entity to do it~?
Taffy, there is good and bad in everything. There is a good God and a bad satan, Serpent, Devil, which ever you may call him. My personal opinion on it all is as the original post says, "to learn from experience" we are learning good and bad from experience. Since God is not evil or bad he created the bad spirit for us to learn firsthand what bad was. How would we know what good was if there was no bad in the world?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on November 06, 2011, 12:21:31 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 05, 2011, 09:42:36 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 05, 2011, 07:59:37 PM
hey, maybe it's a thing that causes an action :grin:
heres a question~ WE KNOW THE lord causes the Lying spirit within Men# He also becomes the Nature of the satan Himself being mans adversary~So wheres Satan in all this~ then of course we Have the old Serpent called the devil taking His part in the The Flame along with the False prophet~~~~? if [ which HE DOES]the Lord control ALL spirits Lying[ opposing]and beComes mans adversary~ can some Please tell me why He needs another entity to do it~?
Taffy, there is good and bad in everything. There is a good God and a bad satan, Serpent, Devil, which ever you may call him. My personal opinion on it all is as the original post says, "to learn from experience" we are learning good and bad from experience. Since God is not evil or bad he created the bad spirit for us to learn firsthand what bad was. How would we know what good was if there was no bad in the world?
CHB
As Card often Mentions we are walking this out in shoe leather~~ as it was finshed before it Began~ Meaning it was completed in the Invisible walked out in the Visible ~ Job ws PERFECT, before his Ordeal began~
~ Im not saying God is evil etc~~~ I was Putting the question Out there Charlotte for the Input of Others~Shalom :icon_flower:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 05, 2011, 07:37:07 PM
The word is listed as a verb.
Yes, the word you gave is listed as a verb but you have the wrong word.
The word in Gen 3:1 is a noun, H5175, not H5172 [which is its root]
Gen 3:1 Now
the serpentH5175 wasH1961 more subtilH6175 than anyH4480 H3605 beastH2416 of the fieldH7704 whichH834 the LORDH3068 GodH430 had made.H6213
The root meaning doesnt negate the Noun Molly~
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 01:22:32 AM
The root meaning doesnt negate the Noun Molly~
I didn't say it did, whatever that means.
I said the actual word in Genesis 3:1 is a noun H5175.
If you look at Beloved Servant's link, you will see he gave the link for H5172, which is a different word.
I seem to be having trouble communicating this for some reason.
THE WORD SERPENT IN GEN 3:1 IS A NOUN, H5175.
The SERPENT is a Person, Place, or Thing.
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 01:24:46 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 01:22:32 AM
The root meaning doesnt negate the Noun Molly~
I didn't say it did, whatever that means.
I said the actual word in Genesis 3:1 is a noun H5175.
If you look at Beloved Servant's link, you will see he gave the link for H5172, which is a different word.
I seem to be having trouble communicating this for some reason.
THE WORD SERPENT IN GEN 3:1 IS A NOUN, H5175.
Moly~ Even SERPENT IN gEN 3:1 HAS THE SAME ROOT~
The simples are the ROOT meaning of the SERPENT [Noun]is a VERB~~thats It!
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 01:29:28 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 01:24:46 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 01:22:32 AM
The root meaning doesnt negate the Noun Molly~
I didn't say it did, whatever that means.
I said the actual word in Genesis 3:1 is a noun H5175.
If you look at Beloved Servant's link, you will see he gave the link for H5172, which is a different word.
I seem to be having trouble communicating this for some reason.
THE WORD SERPENT IN GEN 3:1 IS A NOUN, H5175.
Moly~ Even SERPENT IN gEN 3:1 HAS THE SAME ROOT~
The simples are the ROOT meaning of the SERPENT [Noun]is a VERB~~thats It!
What? I don't know what you are talking about.
Yes, Beloved Serpent gave the root for the word serpent which is a noun.
The serpent is a person who is a divinator, a cunning trickster, a magician, but the word given for serpent H5175 in Gen 3:1 is a NOUN.
The serpent is a person.
the word H5175.#Noun~Serpent
then Hit the root word From נָחַשׁ (H5172)
~ to learn by experience, dilengly observe bieng a Verb~~~its constant~
how are you so confused~
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 01:43:04 AM
the word H5175.#Noun~Serpent
then Hit the root word From נָחַשׁ (H5172)
~ to learn by experience, dilengly observe bieng a Verb~~~its constant~
how are you so confused~
I'm not confused, are you? rofl
I'm saying the word in Gen 3:1 is a NOUN, not a verb.
The serpent is a person, not an action.
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 01:45:00 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 01:43:04 AM
the word H5175.#Noun~Serpent
then Hit the root word From נָחַשׁ (H5172)
~ to learn by experience, dilengly observe bieng a Verb~~~its constant~
how are you so confused~
I'm not confused, are you? rofl
I'm saying the word in Gen 3:1 is a NOUN, not a verb.
The word Serpent always Presents itself as Noun~ where you got PERSON from . even so, the Root remains contant everytime~~ Molly I dOnt mean to be rude But this is Kids stuff~ whats your problem?
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 01:47:57 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 01:45:00 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 01:43:04 AM
the word H5175.#Noun~Serpent
then Hit the root word From נָחַשׁ (H5172)
~ to learn by experience, dilengly observe bieng a Verb~~~its constant~
how are you so confused~
I'm not confused, are you? rofl
I'm saying the word in Gen 3:1 is a NOUN, not a verb.
The word Serpent always Presents itself as Noun~ where you got PERSON from . even so, the Root remains contant everytime~~ Molly I dOnt mean to be rude But this is Kids stuff~ whats your problem?
Where I got PERSON from is that the serpent in Gen 3:1 is a noun and a noun by definition is a person, place, or thing.
Beloved Servant said the serpent is a verb. It's not a verb. It's a noun.
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 01:51:16 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 01:47:57 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 01:45:00 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 01:43:04 AM
the word H5175.#Noun~Serpent
then Hit the root word From נָחַשׁ (H5172)
~ to learn by experience, dilengly observe bieng a Verb~~~its constant~
how are you so confused~
I'm not confused, are you? rofl
I'm saying the word in Gen 3:1 is a NOUN, not a verb.
The word Serpent always Presents itself as Noun~ where you got PERSON from . even so, the Root remains contant everytime~~ Molly I dOnt mean to be rude But this is Kids stuff~ whats your problem?
Where I got PERSON from is that the serpent in Gen 3:1 is a noun and a noun by definition is a person, place, or thing.
BUT AT LEAST nOW YOU CAN ACCEPT THE oBVIOUS~~ ~ Thing~~ nows Interesting. :winkgrin:
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 01:53:38 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 01:51:16 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 01:47:57 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 01:45:00 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 01:43:04 AM
the word H5175.#Noun~Serpent
then Hit the root word From נָחַשׁ (H5172)
~ to learn by experience, dilengly observe bieng a Verb~~~its constant~
how are you so confused~
I'm not confused, are you? rofl
I'm saying the word in Gen 3:1 is a NOUN, not a verb.
The word Serpent always Presents itself as Noun~ where you got PERSON from . even so, the Root remains contant everytime~~ Molly I dOnt mean to be rude But this is Kids stuff~ whats your problem?
Where I got PERSON from is that the serpent in Gen 3:1 is a noun and a noun by definition is a person, place, or thing.
BUT AT LEAST nOW YOU CAN ACCEPT THE oBVIOUS~~ ~ Thing~~ nows Interesting. :winkgrin:
Accept the obvious? There you go again--condescending.
The word in Gen 3:1 for serpent is a NOUN not a verb.
I hope that's finally obvious.
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 02:00:13 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 01:55:48 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 01:53:38 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 01:51:16 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 01:47:57 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 01:45:00 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 01:43:04 AM
the word H5175.#Noun~Serpent
then Hit the root word From נָחַשׁ (H5172)
~ to learn by experience, dilengly observe bieng a Verb~~~its constant~
how are you so confused~
I'm not confused, are you? rofl
I'm saying the word in Gen 3:1 is a NOUN, not a verb.
The word Serpent always Presents itself as Noun~ where you got PERSON from . even so, the Root remains contant everytime~~ Molly I dOnt mean to be rude But this is Kids stuff~ whats your problem?
Where I got PERSON from is that the serpent in Gen 3:1 is a noun and a noun by definition is a person, place, or thing.
BUT AT LEAST nOW YOU CAN ACCEPT THE oBVIOUS~~ ~ Thing~~ nows Interesting. :winkgrin:
Accept the obvious? There you go again--condescending.
The word in Gen 3:1 for serpent is a NOUN not a verb.
I hope that's finally obvious.
Moly condecending PLEASE look back over your last Postings~~ as Sheila said earlier these posts are For you~~~
I'm not confused, are you? rofl
not unlike the other Night Personally I dont take offence Molly But ones does Tire of it~~~ how many points did you Give Beloved for staying on topic 10 wasnt It## thatss Very Nice of you~~ Godd night Molly~~no more of this~
LOOK. I said that the word for serpent in Gen 3:1 was a NOUN about ten posts ago. Then I had to go down this rabbit hole with you doing and saying who knows what--none of it made any sense.
I also made the comment about 10 points in a playful way, because there was talk about staying on topic. But, God forbid I try to be playful or erudite or anything else when you are in one of your moods
So now you dismiss me. Say goodnight, Molly.
...and all this time I was under the impression that they are the same word!
There's a difference?
QuoteI said that the word for serpent in Gen 3:1 was a NOUN about ten posts ago.
YES, Indeed you did~ Is theres any post Ihave disagreed the word Being the Noun~~~ No Molly I havent~
QuoteThen I had to go down this rabbit hole with you doing and saying who knows what--none of it made any sense.
who TWISTED your Arm Molly~whos bLAME is it this Time # the serpent, or Eves~No One MADE you do ANYTHING mOLLY# YOU CHOOSE~~IS their any responsiblity for our own actions~ :dontknow:
QuoteI also made the comment about 10 points in a playful way, because there was talk about staying on topic.
you now Molly No one Knows the Heart Right~ SO you say I said This In a Playful, Iwas but then Judge ME that I I was condescending In My Comment~~ Hows strange we Judge the Heart of others and expect others to KNOW OURS~
QuoteBut, God forbid I try to be playful or erudite or anything else when you are in one of your moods
and God forbid when one makes a Comment and WINKS~Mood ~No Molly No MoOd this END~ :icon_flower:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 06, 2011, 02:49:31 AM
...and all this time I was under the impression that they are the same word!
There's a difference?
No ~ one is a Noun the Other a Verb~ a Namiing word Being a Doing WORD # SIMILAR TO LOVE##
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 06, 2011, 02:49:31 AM
...and all this time I was under the impression that they are the same word!
There's a difference?
Yes.
One is the root of the other. You posted H5172 which is a verb. The word for serpent in Gen 3:1 is H5175 which is a noun. The difference is in the jots and titles.
That's why the translator says "the serpent."
Gen 3:1 Now
the serpentH5175 wasH1961 more subtilH6175 than anyH4480 H3605 beastH2416 of the fieldH7704 whichH834 the LORDH3068 GodH430 had made.H6213
H5172 nâchash
H5175 nâchâsh See the extra mark over the second a ?
Quote from: Taffyyou now Molly No one Knows the Heart Right~ SO you say I said This In a Playful, Iwas but then Judge ME that I I was condescending In My Comment~~ Hows strange we Judge the Heart of others and expect others to KNOW OURS~
If Beloved Servant had taken umbrage at what I said, I would have apologized to him and said I was just being playful.
This, from you, was playful?
"Molly I dOnt mean to be rude But this is Kids stuff~ whats your problem?"
"how are you so confused~"
"BUT AT LEAST nOW YOU CAN ACCEPT THE oBVIOUS~~ "
"not unlike the other Night Personally I dont take offence Molly But ones does Tire of it~~~"
"how many points did you Give Beloved for staying on topic 10 wasn't It## thatss Very Nice of you~"
"Godd night Molly~~no more of this~"
I'm only trying to make one point in all these posts from hell. The word for serpent in Gen 3:1 is a NOUN. That's all I'm trying to say. Agree or disagree, I don't care any more.
Quote from: CHB on November 06, 2011, 12:21:31 AM
Taffy, there is good and bad in everything. There is a good God and a bad satan, Serpent, Devil, which ever you may call him. My personal opinion on it all is as the original post says, "to learn from experience" we are learning good and bad from experience. Since God is not evil or bad he created the bad spirit for us to learn firsthand what bad was. How would we know what good was if there was no bad in the world?
CHB
This is something I've been thinking alot about lately. I was going to write a post on it, but now I can't even remember what I was thinking about :dontknow: I'm sure it will come back though. :winkgrin:
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 03:12:16 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 03:08:51 AM
Quote from: Taffyyou now Molly No one Knows the Heart Right~ SO you say I said This In a Playful, Iwas but then Judge ME that I I was condescending In My Comment~~ Hows strange we Judge the Heart of others and expect others to KNOW OURS~
If Beloved Servant had taken umbrage at what I said, I would have apologized to him and said I was just being playful.
This, from you, was playful?
"Molly I dOnt mean to be rude But this is Kids stuff~ whats your problem?"
"how are you so confused~"
"BUT AT LEAST nOW YOU CAN ACCEPT THE oBVIOUS~~ "
"not unlike the other Night Personally I dont take offence Molly But ones does Tire of it~~~"
"how many points did you Give Beloved for staying on topic 10 wasn't It## thatss Very Nice of you~"
"Godd night Molly~~no more of this~"
I'm only trying to make one point in all these posts from hell. The word for serpent in Gen 3:1 is a NOUN. That's all I'm trying to say. Agree or disagree, I don't care any more.
and the other Points to the previous Post are?
Trying to communicate that one fact to you.
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 03:17:17 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 03:12:16 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 03:08:51 AM
Quote from: Taffyyou now Molly No one Knows the Heart Right~ SO you say I said This In a Playful, Iwas but then Judge ME that I I was condescending In My Comment~~ Hows strange we Judge the Heart of others and expect others to KNOW OURS~
If Beloved Servant had taken umbrage at what I said, I would have apologized to him and said I was just being playful.
This, from you, was playful?
"Molly I dOnt mean to be rude But this is Kids stuff~ whats your problem?"
"how are you so confused~"
"BUT AT LEAST nOW YOU CAN ACCEPT THE oBVIOUS~~ "
"not unlike the other Night Personally I dont take offence Molly But ones does Tire of it~~~"
"how many points did you Give Beloved for staying on topic 10 wasn't It## thatss Very Nice of you~"
"Godd night Molly~~no more of this~"
I'm only trying to make one point in all these posts from hell. The word for serpent in Gen 3:1 is a NOUN. That's all I'm trying to say. Agree or disagree, I don't care any more.
and the other Points to the previous Post are?
Trying to communicate that one fact to you.
no Molly the hard bit was trying to Convey the Noun and the Verb## Beloved was RIGHT in The word He defined being the VERB and you were Right In It being the NOUN### Right?
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 03:21:50 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 03:17:17 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 03:12:16 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 03:08:51 AM
Quote from: Taffyyou now Molly No one Knows the Heart Right~ SO you say I said This In a Playful, Iwas but then Judge ME that I I was condescending In My Comment~~ Hows strange we Judge the Heart of others and expect others to KNOW OURS~
If Beloved Servant had taken umbrage at what I said, I would have apologized to him and said I was just being playful.
This, from you, was playful?
"Molly I dOnt mean to be rude But this is Kids stuff~ whats your problem?"
"how are you so confused~"
"BUT AT LEAST nOW YOU CAN ACCEPT THE oBVIOUS~~ "
"not unlike the other Night Personally I dont take offence Molly But ones does Tire of it~~~"
"how many points did you Give Beloved for staying on topic 10 wasn't It## thatss Very Nice of you~"
"Godd night Molly~~no more of this~"
I'm only trying to make one point in all these posts from hell. The word for serpent in Gen 3:1 is a NOUN. That's all I'm trying to say. Agree or disagree, I don't care any more.
and the other Points to the previous Post are?
Trying to communicate that one fact to you.
no Molly the hard bit was trying to Convey the Noun and the Verb## Beloved was RIGHT in The word He defined being the VERB and you were Right In It being the NOUN### Right?
No. The word in Gen 3:1 is the noun, not the verb.
The english word for the noun H5175 is a snake [from its hiss], serpent.
The english word for the verb H5172 is
to hiss, that is, whisper a magic spell, to prognosticate, to divine, to use enchantment,
to learn by experience, to diligently observe.
lol,
The Cloven Tongue still at work TODAY!
HSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!
yes and Ive been saying this all the Time~ now look at the word serpent presented in the OT and youll always se it rendered a noun H5175 and ALWAYS as the ROOT presented as a VERB~RIGHT?
As the Lord's is a still, small voice.
Is that YOU LORD?
Or do I see through a glass darkly?
Will I never know You Lord?
Or...
AM I YOUR FRIEND?
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 04:28:37 AM
yes and Ive been saying this all the Time~ now look at the word serpent presented in the OT and youll always se it rendered a noun H5175 and ALWAYS as the ROOT presented as a VERB~RIGHT?
Yes, the root is a verb, but the point is still made that the serpent in Gen 3:1 is a person, place, or thing--it's a noun, not a verb.
So there are 3 in the garden at the beginning of Gen 3, and I guess everyone can decide for themselves who the 3 are.
I say they are Adam, Eve, and the Serpentine Being known as Satan, that ancient Devil, the liar and father of lies.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 06, 2011, 04:43:17 AM
Is that YOU LORD?
Or do I see through a glass darkly?
Will I never know You Lord?
Or...
AM I YOUR FRIEND?
we are Known as we are and have always BEEN ~ one in HaElohim for we are ONE~ SEE ITS AS IT IS AND ALWAYS have been
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 04:44:22 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 04:28:37 AM
yes and Ive been saying this all the Time~ now look at the word serpent presented in the OT and youll always se it rendered a noun H5175 and ALWAYS as the ROOT presented as a VERB~RIGHT?
Yes, the root is a verb, but the point is still made that the serpent in Gen 3:1 is a person, place, or thing--it's a noun, not a verb.
So there are 3 in the garden at the beginning of Gen 3, and I guess everyone can decide for themselves who the 3 are.
I say they are Adam, Eve, and the Serpintine Being known as Satan, that ancient Devil, the liar and father of lies.
well TY Molly for going Ten rounds with me to state what was already Known~~ so it is Right Right~~
3 make One last I heard~ Selah~
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 04:49:11 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 04:44:22 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 04:28:37 AM
yes and Ive been saying this all the Time~ now look at the word serpent presented in the OT and youll always se it rendered a noun H5175 and ALWAYS as the ROOT presented as a VERB~RIGHT?
Yes, the root is a verb, but the point is still made that the serpent in Gen 3:1 is a person, place, or thing--it's a noun, not a verb.
So there are 3 in the garden at the beginning of Gen 3, and I guess everyone can decide for themselves who the 3 are.
I say they are Adam, Eve, and the Serpintine Being known as Satan, that ancient Devil, the liar and father of lies.
well TY Molly for going Ten rounds with me to state what was already Known~~ so it is Right Right~~
3 make One last I heard~ Selah~
Why do you do this? Beloved Servant was saying the word was a verb. It is not a verb. So it was not already known.
These 3 make 2 dead.
Interesting, though, that creation accounts for light and dark, all the animals, Adam and Eve, but never mentions the creation of the serpentine being.
Which, by the way, turns my stomach even typing the idea.
It is only a verb.
You, Molly, have no proof otherwise.
Your canter is banter and nothing more than the beat of hoofs.
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 04:51:18 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 04:49:11 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 04:44:22 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 04:28:37 AM
yes and Ive been saying this all the Time~ now look at the word serpent presented in the OT and youll always se it rendered a noun H5175 and ALWAYS as the ROOT presented as a VERB~RIGHT?
Yes, the root is a verb, but the point is still made that the serpent in Gen 3:1 is a person, place, or thing--it's a noun, not a verb.
So there are 3 in the garden at the beginning of Gen 3, and I guess everyone can decide for themselves who the 3 are.
I say they are Adam, Eve, and the Serpintine Being known as Satan, that ancient Devil, the liar and father of lies.
well TY Molly for going Ten rounds with me to state what was already Known~~ so it is Right Right~~
3 make One last I heard~ Selah~
Why do you do this? Beloved Servant was saying the word was a verb. It is not a verb. So it was not already known.
Yikes Molly# do what## The Noun as you say is a Person but you also presented it as a Thing or Place Right~ the serpent is BOTH but YOU keep telling us ALL its a PERSON## Right#'if its a PERSON FOR YOU FINe~ But else let other have theres## but you caould at least ADMIT its now a Verb and a Noun#but nah## ya wont will you~
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 06, 2011, 04:52:24 AM
Interesting, though, that creation accounts for light and dark, all the animals, Adam and Eve, but never mentions the creation of the serpentine being.
Which, by the way, turns my stomach even typing the idea.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 04:55:21 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 04:51:18 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 04:49:11 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 04:44:22 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 04:28:37 AM
yes and Ive been saying this all the Time~ now look at the word serpent presented in the OT and youll always se it rendered a noun H5175 and ALWAYS as the ROOT presented as a VERB~RIGHT?
Yes, the root is a verb, but the point is still made that the serpent in Gen 3:1 is a person, place, or thing--it's a noun, not a verb.
So there are 3 in the garden at the beginning of Gen 3, and I guess everyone can decide for themselves who the 3 are.
I say they are Adam, Eve, and the Serpintine Being known as Satan, that ancient Devil, the liar and father of lies.
well TY Molly for going Ten rounds with me to state what was already Known~~ so it is Right Right~~
3 make One last I heard~ Selah~
Why do you do this? Beloved Servant was saying the word was a verb. It is not a verb. So it was not already known..
Yikes Molly# do what## The Noun as you say is a Person but you also presented it as a Thing or Place Right~ the serpent is BOTH but YOU keep telling us ALL its a PERSON## Right#'if its a PERSON FOR YOU FINe~ But else let other have theres## but you caould at least ADMIT its now a Verb and a Noun#but nah## ya wont will you~
The verb is a different word. It is spelled differently in Hebrew. That's why it has a different number, H5172
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 06, 2011, 04:52:24 AM
Interesting, though, that creation accounts for light and dark, all the animals, Adam and Eve, but never mentions the creation of the serpentine being.
Which, by the way, turns my stomach even typing the idea.
Some say the creation of him is dealt with in the Bible.
Some say...
Obey the law!
The Hebrew root has 3 consonants usually. We now come to the central theme of all word building in Hebrew; it is the central rhythm of the whole vast far flung structure of the Hebrew language. Practically all words in Hebrew go back to a root and this root must have in it 3 consonants. You can do anything you want to the root, you can use it in any verb form or tense, you can turn it to nouns, adverbs, prepositions, adjectives. No matter what you do you will see always staring you in the face? The 3 constants of the root, you can never escape them and equally important, what you do with the root, no matter in to what word you turn it, that word must carry in it something of the meaning of the root.
The noun does carry something from the root.
The noun:
A snake [from its hiss] H5175
The root:
to hiss, that is, whisper a magic spell H5172
The cloven tongue.
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 05:07:23 AM
The HISS is a Voive of Soorts## but why is It a Whisper Molly? WHISPERS cARRY
Why a whisper? Good question.
I would say because it is being done in secret..
But, Adam watched and was not deceived.
not deceived!
lol,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E2hYDIFDIU
Eve is ADAMS mind In type Molly His very soul# but the whisper carries More then ~
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 05:16:39 AM
Eve is ADAMS mind In type Molly His very soul# but the whisper carries More then ~
I agree you could see it that way, but you have the problem of who is the serpent then.
the whisper carries More then? This makes no sense to me. Explain.
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 05:18:46 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2011, 05:16:39 AM
Eve is ADAMS mind In type Molly His very soul# but the whisper carries More then ~
I agree you could see it that way, but you have the problem of who is the serpent then.
the whilsper carries More then? This makes no sense to me. Explain.
oddly enough Molly a short time ago I found this Link~~~it confirmed In ME much of what I was Given to see## even so## I appreciate you may see differently
# dig Into this Beloved
http://members.cox.net/8thday/serpent.html
The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.
Bingo!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 06, 2011, 05:25:11 AM
The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.
:sigh: :icon_flower:
Blame my sin on "satan" instead of ME!
The devil made me do it!
Hubris, Avarice and the Pride of Life.
could we please discuss this with the idea of actually helping each other
Blessings.
Back to the original topic--
From Taffy's link
Adam, Eve, and Discernment [the carnal mind]
I'm not sure I can make that work.
Is the carnal mind more subtil than any beast of the field the LORD God has made?
I'm not sure I can think of the carnal mind as 'subtil.'
Is the carnal mind a liar and the father of lies?
One good thing about our senses is that they often give us good information about the physical world--they do not lie about pain, danger, pleasure, etc--on a very local level.
So if I touch a hot stove, I can be sure my senses will tell me the truth-- that it's hot.
The carnal mind used in the right way is a helper to us living in this world.
It's so difficult. Generally, with a few exceptions (trashing the scriptures/heavy textual criticism, ongoing contentious free will/all sov and Trinity debates) we really try to not moderate or edit people's beliefs, thoughts, questions...people can believe how they see things, or not believe at all. If we chased away everyone that didn't agree with us, at some point, what would we be accomplishing? Seems to me this is a very good place for ET'ers or atheists to come...aren't we supposed to interact with them, love them, share the gospel with them? Same thing with varying beliefs. I'll "bet" there's not any 2 people on these boards that see everything absolutely 100% the same. And IMO, that's OK - IF, WE TREAT EACH OTHER WITH RESPECT, DON'T TAKE OBVIOUS OR VEILED SHOTS AT EACH OTHER (which is baiting, flaming, calling out others beliefs as stupid, ridiculous, etc [outlined in the FAQ section] which are all warnable/bannable offenses).
Some absolutely won't abide by the forum guidelines, or respond to ongoing attempts to help them be able to do so, so unfortunately, in a community like this some will be banned. That doesn't mean they're not loved, concerned about, prayed for...but if someone just continues to stir up dissension, cause strife, criticize others, embarrass others - all things against the clearly stated Forum Guidelines, then at some point the limit is reached and they may be banned.
So, there's still room for MANY varying opinions, understanding, interpretations, beliefs...there are just ways those all need to be presented. And the main thing I believe we often get away from is, POST 'AS I UNDERSTAND', 'IN MY OPINION'!!! Then things can be discussed, considered, and then either learned from or respectfully dismissed. No one choking the other into submission OVER PERSONAL UNDERSTANDINGS of things that are otherwise not outside the forum guidelines.
Vapor of vapors!
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 06:29:08 AM
Back to the original topic--
From Taffy's link
Adam, Eve, and Discernment [the carnal mind]
I'm not sure I can make that work.
Is the carnal mind more subtil than any beast of the field the LORD God has made?
I'm not sure I can think of the carnal mind as 'subtil.'
Is the carnal mind a liar and the father of lies?
One gopd thing about our senses is that they often give us good information about the physical world--they do not lie about pain, danger, pleasure, etc--on a very local level.
So if I touch a hot stove, I can be sure my senses will tell me the truth-- that it's hot.
The carnal mind used in the right way is a helper to us living in this world.
Isee a Difference of learning from them then By living by them~inc out emotions Molly~
I rarely read my pm's.
They once went to my e-mail but no longer do. (?)
I do think though that we should get rid of people that disagree with us after a given amount of time to conform.
"...move it off the boards."
:laughing7:
:laughing7:
:laughing7:
:laughing7:
This verse compares the serpent [the nachash] to a babbling fool.
If serpent and [carnal mind of] man were one and the same, how could you compare them?
You compare two different things, not one thing to itself.
Ecc 10:11 SurelyH518 the serpentH5175 will biteH5391 withoutH3808 enchantment;H3908 and a babblerH1167 H3956 is noH369 better.H3504
Ecc 10:12 The wordsH1697 of a wise man'sH2450 mouthH6310 are gracious;H2580 but the lipsH8193 of a foolH3684 will swallow upH1104 himself.
without the numbers:
11Surely the serpent will bite without enchantment; and a babbler is no better.
12The words of a wise man's mouth are gracious; but the lips of a fool will swallow up himself.
lol,
babbling fool!
lol.
What else would the Spirit call it!
i think he's talking about a 'babbler' from your quoted scrip
...you left out the "fool!"
i thought you just added that, but now i see it's in the last line :mblush: :punish:
Nope.
The fool has always been there.
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 06:48:18 AM
This verse compares the serpent [the nachash] to a babbling fool.
If serpent and [carnal mind of] man were one and the same, how could you compare them?
You compare two different things, not one thing to itself.
Ecc 10:11 SurelyH518 the serpentH5175 will biteH5391 withoutH3808 enchantment;H3908 and a babblerH1167 H3956 is noH369 better.H3504
Ecc 10:12 The wordsH1697 of a wise man'sH2450 mouthH6310 are gracious;H2580 but the lipsH8193 of a foolH3684 will swallow upH1104 himself.
without the numbers:
11Surely the serpent will bite without enchantment; and a babbler is no better.
12The words of a wise man's mouth are gracious; but the lips of a fool will swallow up himself.
The fool, jabcat, is also in the first line — not only the last!
Quote from: jabcat on November 06, 2011, 07:03:29 AM
i thought you just added that, but now i see it's in the last line :mblush: :punish:
You're right.
I put the two words together. I shouldn't have done that.
Here he compares the serpent and the babbler--both bite.
11Surely the serpent will bite without enchantment; and a babbler is no better.
In the next verse, he compares a wise man and a fool.
But--my point--if you are doing a comparison, the serpent is not the babbler [and the wise man is not a fool,]
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 06, 2011, 05:26:52 AM
Blame my sin on "satan" instead of ME!
Bingo! :bigGrin: :icon_flower: :thumbsup:
In my opinion, the way I see it is that the serpent is only the carnal within the carnal mind.
Isnt the carnal mind how we think before the Lord renews us?
And then the mind of Christ overcomes the carnal mind when we are caused to yield to His Voice?
The carnal mind is mans mind, his brain, his intellect, how he thinks. His 5 senses arouse the mind(carnal) and then man follows in suit as or should it "feel" good or how he is moved to desire the pleasure. This carnal mind is not the adversary or satan but that "spirit" the adversary fondles, like foreplay the senses and when those senses are aroused man/adam will do the most hideous and morbid things. IMO
Brothers,sisters...
an aside......name denotes property,character or action...Adam observed animals before naming them...and after ascertaining their 'character' named them
it has to do with holding dominion[reason no one knows new name but you] ex; duck means to immerse due to it's immerseing itself in water.
serpent=subtil..it is this very subtility and low key 'whispering' enchanter that leads into deception. Beleiving a lie changes your whole reality...the majic
spell
"....Adam observed animals before naming them.." Shelia
Now I can say you maybe correct, I will also say I may agree with you. It sounds logical, makes sense and common sense, but...here it comes, but that is an assumption right? We dont know that adam/man observed...before he named them.
He could have just named them when " which he brought in unto the man, that he might see what he should call it,—and, whatsoever the man should call it—any living soul, that, should be the name thereof." Rrotherham Gen.2:19
I'm only saying this because I consider this is how most of us begin to bring forth what we think we know. Again I may agree with you about adam. I assume that in Gen 1:3 And God said, that it is like "we" speak.
SAID- H559 - 'âmar A primitive root; to say (used with great latitude):
Just considering. :icon_flower:
Example Thinktank Reply #77 on: November 04, 2011, 01:59:35 PM »
Reply with quote
I hear a guy say this the other day, not heard this before but interesting idea, which is that Adam failed to subdue the Animals, the serpent was one of those animals, which allowed the serpent to seduce Eve.
i can understand that,Micah
but i did a very involved study years ago on it. and while i cant' tell you where i read it all,it pertains to ancient customs,God renaming someone
when they had a change of nature.saul/Paul...Abraham/Abram.Sarai/Sarah You have the liberty to accept/reserve or have a contrary opinion.
also it has to do with language..and when we go back to root meanings of words..we are often surprised
ex; Beloved naming his dog..he observed him,noted certain characteristics and similiarities,named him the proper name and has dominion through that name
Seth comes to the call
Quote from: sheila on November 06, 2011, 07:01:29 PM
i can understand that,Micah
but i did a very involved study years ago on it. and while i cant' tell you where i read it all,it pertains to ancient customs,God renaming someone
when they had a change of nature.saul/Paul...Abraham/Abram.Sarai/Sarah You have the liberty to accept/reserve or have a contrary opinion.
also it has to do with language..and when we go back to root meanings of words..we are often surprised
ex; Beloved naming his dog..he observed him,noted certain characteristics and similiarities,named him the proper name and has dominion through that name
Seth comes to the call
Yes, Ive read about the name changes and it has GREAT significance.
"... pertains to ancient customs..." now me, personally, I would not even go there.
and didnt someone on the dog naming said we should not name a dog after a man? I think? Now right there is a difference in thinking. I, personally would not name a dog or animal after a man, and certainly not after a biblical name, but that is just me. I am in no way upset in anyway that one chooses to do so. :happy3:
Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2011, 06:29:08 AM
Back to the original topic--
From Taffy's link
Adam, Eve, and Discernment [the carnal mind]
I'm not sure I can make that work.
Is the carnal mind more subtil than any beast of the field the LORD God has made?
I'm not sure I can think of the carnal mind as 'subtil.'
Is the carnal mind a liar and the father of lies?
One good thing about our senses is that they often give us good information about the physical world--they do not lie about pain, danger, pleasure, etc--on a very local level.
So if I touch a hot stove, I can be sure my senses will tell me the truth-- that it's hot.
The carnal mind used in the right way is a helper to us living in this world.
Maybe I'm fussing over words here, but what is the carnal mind?
If carnal mind simply means human flesh or brain etc, then it is simply a machine that the spirit of man directs. This biological machine can either do good and evil. If the human flesh is excluisvely evil, then why does the body feel good when doing good, such as feeding the poor, why smile etc when others are delivered.
Paul lists the sins, that is the lust of the eyes, the pride of life etc
So not sure what the word carnal mind means. It could mean instrement, or it means the evil intentions of the inner man, that needs to transform renew to Christ.
For me "carnal" is all things natural . . .which in and of itself is not a bad thing, but when you are pursuing spiritual truths, you are leaving the natural behind . . .at least that's how I see that it's supposed to be and the problems come when people try to use natural means to enter into spiritual truth . . .which is why I pound on laying one's mind down so much. People with eyes but can't see are those who can see literally but not spiritually because they rely on what can be seen/understood rather than embracing what they can't see or understand. And even as I write that, in this realm, that makes no sense. How can you rely on something you don't understand or can't see? But in the spirit, everything is in the reverse so it makes perfect sense. Faith is the evidence of things unseen. The only way we can please God is by embracing what we can't see. Once we do that, vision of truth is "birthed" in us so that we begin seeing what others still can't see. It's all connected to spiritual intimacy and relationship rather than knowledge and natural reasoning.
But carnality . . .it's like a child . . in and of themselves, they are quite innocent, but if the child is left unattended, they become destructive in their innocence, to the point of even putting their own lives in grave danger. I think carnality does the same thing to us. When it's kept in check, there's no harm in it, but when you feed into it, it becomes your master and you become bound by it. We "are" carnal by nature, but it's only a temporary state. Perhaps that'd be another litmus test to what carnality is . . .anything not eternal . . .
And Molly, for me, "that's" one of the things that clicked into place the loudest for me when I saw how the serpent's identity as the most subtle creature in all the earth (natural realm) is exactly the same characteristic as a carnal mind. It's SO subtle that things can creep in our nature without us even being aware of it. Or sometimes our motives to achieve or obtain a personal goal or possession would APPEAR to be driven by an innocent motive to our consciousness, but subconsciously, beneath the surface of our "self" there are hidden agendas working against us. Psychiatrists are really good at digging deeper into those areas where those hidden things lie in our own minds.
When we sing songs like "more of you" or " I want more of Jesus" . . ."Where you lead me, I will follow . . ." What exactly are we singing there? If we truly believe God is infinite, then why the resistance when God brings us to places that are beyond our comprehension? isn't that what an infinite God desires to do? In all of these discussions on the allegories, analogies, patterns and symbolisms, does "any" of what's been said in supporting those things lead one into bondage? Into death? Granted, it's a different place, but I've always thought that's the way our relationship with God is "supposed" to operate. He will always lead us to the edge of who we are, and then call us to go beyond the comfort zone of our intellect and identity and depend TOTALLY on the sound of his voice rather than on our knowledge "about" his voice.
"It's SO subtle that things can creep in our nature without us even being aware of it. " Nathan
I contend that nothing creeps in like you say, its ALL in man from the beginning, those "things" you speak of, are just dormant and our senses wake them. Should the Lord have found us and we yield to His voice, we are able to put them off... by and through Christ in me, the hope of glory. :HeartThrob:
I know what I should do but don't, I know what I don't do but do anyway . . .oh what a wretched man I am . . .
Sounds to me like Paul still had struggles even after his conversion as well. :dontknow:
Quote from: Nathan on November 08, 2011, 12:00:03 AM
I know what I should do but don't, I know what I don't do but do anyway . . .oh what a wretched man I am . . .
Sounds to me like Paul still had struggles even after his conversion as well. :dontknow:
I totally agree with that thought. I am sure we dont like to think about Paul like that (I dont), but I reason that Paul who I know had a greater strength spiritually than anyone I have met in this walk, yet Paul was as human as you and I, he was a mortal human being made of the same flesh as anyone else. But Nathan what are you saying or trying to infer? :dontknow:
those "things" you speak of, are just dormant and our senses wake them. Should the Lord have found us and we yield to His voice, we are able to put them off
This makes it sound as though all we need to do is get saved and we're free from the power of our selves . . .I was merely indicating that no one is exempt from carnality from within . . .cuz it's SUBTLE . . .it's there without us even being aware that it's there. Only with the light of his presence manifests in us does it then illuminate the things that need to be purged.
God's promises come by way of proclamation (from Him) and revelation . . .from Him as well. But our old man takes those promises and attempts to manipulate situations that will bring about those promises . . .the man in us is always at work trying to control things that ought not be under our control . . .the Spirit is like the wind, you don't know from where it comes or to where it goes, such are those who are born of the Spirit. The subtlety of carnality withn us steels that freedom from us should we let it.
It aint subtil, its us.
So the consensus is that Job's carnal mind killed Job's animals and children and servants, caused Job's house to burn down, and caused boils all over Job's body?
the Lord brought the the evil upon Job by the council of will~ I create EVIL~ HE also Brought the evil spirit within Men, their Lying Tongues~ no Mention of Satan doing the WORK there~~~HE also becomes the adversary to man Himself// he was the serpent who caused Paul to fall from His Horse~ Things to ponder
So God killed Job's animals and children and servants, caused Job's house to burn down, and caused boils all over Job's body?
And God is satan?
But, Adam is also satan, created in God's image?
So who is this middleman called satan in the Job story?
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2011, 04:59:42 AM
So God killed Job's animals and children and servants, caused Job's house to burn down, and caused boils all over Job's body?
And God is satan?
But, Adam is also satan, created in God's image?
So who is this middleman called satan in the Job story?
Just things to Ponder along side~
The Absence of Satan in the Old Testament
Posted By MSH on February 1, 2010
--by Michael Heiser
Several commenters to the last post asked for some information on the satan.
Although English Bibles continue the practice of capitalizing the word "satan" in passages like Job 1 and 2, those passage do not have a specific individual in mind — that is, "satan" in these passages should *not* be understood as a proper personal name.
The reason for this is straightforward. In biblical Hebrew, the definite article (the word "the) is a single letter (heh). Hebrew prefixes (attaches) the definite article to a noun (or participle to make it a substantive) so that, like all languages that have definite articles, the noun is made specific. Biblical Hebrew does not, however, put the definite article (the word "the") on proper personal nouns (personal names). In this respect, Hebrew is like English. I don't call myself "the Mike".No one (except maybe Donald Trump ) puts the word "the" in front of their first name. Hebrew simply does not do this at all. As the well known biblical Hebrew reference grammar by Jouon-Muraoka notes: "No proper noun of person takes the article, not even when it has the form of an adjective or a participle."[1.Paul Joüon and Takamitsu Muraoka, A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew (Editrice Pontificio Istituto Biblico, 2003; 2005), vol. 2:505; Par 137.b.]
Without exception, the word "satan" in Job occurs *with* the article. This indicates quite clearly that "satan" is *not* a personal name. It is generic, and means "the adversary". The word can be used of human beings (1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:23; 1 Kings 5:18; 1 Kings 11:14). All of these examples have "satan" without the article, but the referent is a human being, not a divine being, so we don't have "Satan" here either.
In terms of statistics, the noun "satan" occurs 27 times in the Hebrew Bible, ten times *without* the article.
Of these ten, seven refer to human beings and two refer to the Angel of Yahweh for sure. The lone outlier is 1 Chron 21:1. This is the famous passage where "Satan" provokes David to take a census, but in the parallel passage, 2 Sam 24:1-25, it's Yahweh provoking David to take the census. Due to this parallel, and due to the fact that "satan" here has no article, this is viewed by some as the single instance of an evil, cosmic figure called "satan" in the OT. It actually isn't, though. If you're familiar with my work on the two Yahwehs in the OT, the parallel (Yahweh-satan) is striking to you. The "satan" figure here is none other than the Angel of Yahweh — and so this instance without the article is akin to the two instances in the book of Numbers where "satan" was used of the Angel. This relieves the "is Yahweh Satan?" question and any notion of contradiction — since it would mean BOTH passages have Yahweh provoking David — one appears to be the invisible Yahweh; the other is the visible Yahweh.
There's actually been a good recent article on why the satan in 1 Chron 21:1 is the Angel. The article is freely available online, so I've posted it here as a PDF. Consider this one fact that the article notes. It is in THIS passage that, after verse 1 mentions the "satan" provoking David, we read the Angel is there "with a sword drawn in his hand". The Hebrew phrasing behind this occurs only three other times: Joshua 5:13 and Numbers 22:23, 31. ALL of these references are the Angel of Yahweh. and in one of them (Num. 22) he is the satan.
This would mean there are ZERO verses in the OT that have a personal name "satan", and ZERO references to Satan as a cosmic evil entity as in the NT.
So where does this leave us?
Basically, "the satan" in Job is an officer of the divine council (sort of like a prosecutor). His job is to "run to and fro throughout the earth" to see who is and who is not obeying Yahweh. When he finds someone who isn't and is therefore under Yahweh's wrath, he "accuses" that person. This is what we see in Job — and it actually has a distinct New Testament flavor. (We also see it in Zechariah 3). But the point here is that this satan is not evil; he's doing his job. Over time (specifically the idea of "being an adversary in the heavenly council" was applied intellectually to the enemy of God — the nachash (typically rendered "serpent") in Eden, the one who asserted his own will against Yahweh's designs. That entity eventually becomes labeled "Satan" and so the adversarial role gets personified and stuck to God's great enemy (also called the Devil). This is a good example of how an idea in Israelite religion plays out and is applied in different ways during the progress of revelation.
http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/2010/02/the-absence-of-satan-in-the-old-testament/
http://luonline.academia.edu/ElkeSpeliopoulos/Papers/499943/Theological_Development_of_Satan
Theological Development of Satan from the Old to the New Testament
Although Satan becomes more specifically associated with an evil, malevolent enemy of God in the New Testament [the serpent of Gen 3:1],
he still remains under the control of God, and is defeated by Jesus.
One interesting observation of the writer is that whereas all other world views show good and evil being a kind of ying and yang of equal
and opposing forces, in both the Old and New Testament, the evil force is always shown as subordinate to and under the control of a good God.
:cloud9: My :2c: Re, Adam named them. When God names someone He breathes that nature into them, as a creative being. Adam was made a creative being as well, and imparted the natures of his soul (the vanity he had within him that was given him to overcome thru Christ) that he had received.
All the names denote natures which have been long forgotten for the most part, natures within man that must bow the knee to the Christ within us. He allowed me to recover thru the Spirit, some of the natures of the creation. The creation is witness to Him and His glory. This is why when you read about them, you are confronted with a witness of the patterns revealed in the Word and the Tabernacle.
This wisdom given regarding the creation and the natures of the beasts, is part of Him reconciling all things unto Himself. All things were fragmented, He reconciles them back into proper alignment, ie. subject to Him again. Earth/natural creation over Him (like a covering or dominion) = the grave. Him (standing, uprightness, righteousness) over the earth/creation (as a covering or dominion) = resurrection. Blessings....
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2011, 04:41:22 AM
So the consensus is that Job's carnal mind killed Job's animals and children and servants, caused Job's house to burn down, and caused boils all over Job's body?
Wow . .. really? You think that's what we're trying to say in all of this? It seems everyone has a great grasp on the story, but no one is willing to go off the deep end of the spirit and see what lies beneath the story. So . . .Job was torn down and rebuilt again . . . it's got some great morals that go with it, but where's the spiritual truth? What is the unseen message in all of it? If you're not willing to be open to that, then none of our words will make any sense.
IF I'm saying satan is to be seen on a spiritual dimension rather than JUST a literal one . . . then you can't leave everything else as literal either. The loss of his sons . . .SPIRITUALLY . .the loss of his livestock SPIRITUALLY . .the lost of his wife SPIRITUALLY . . .. I'm not going to try to chew it for you. What is revealed is based on your relationship with God in the same manner as what is revealed to me is based on my relationship with God.
I just received an email from a church member who God has used greatly in a number of church circles. In the past, they had taught one particular church group on this very subject . . . satan and the demonic. But God has changed their perspective, they approached me Sunday and shared their concern because they had already agreed to do the class and they were about to head over to teach it this time as well but they knew if they got too deep, they'd lose the class because the group is VERY tightly wrapped around the manifestations of the ministries rather than around Christ himself.
The email they sent was an update of the class, the group could feel the intensity of life coming through the message and asked if this person would continue teaching, but she had to decline because even though they felt the power, they were not willing or ready to digest the source from which it comes. It reminded me of Ezekiel and John who were instructed to eat the scroll/little book and it was sweet to the taste but bitter to the stomach . . .
There is a sweetness to the message but the moment people start realizing the details from which the message comes from, they become resistant toward it.
The message in Job is not about the loss of natural things and the restoration of natural things which in the end, the main character is much richer with natural possessions than he was in the beginning . . .
Jesus is in the volume of the book . . .including Job . . .where do you see Jesus in the story with satan at God's throne dickering at how much he can or can't attack Job?
:thumbsup:
lion will lie down with the Lamb....a mere infant put his hand into nest of serpents............
all this on HIS HOLY MOUNTAIN........
depicts lesser natures ruled over by Christ.and Christ's dominion over the creation.
subtility is not evil of itself,neither is cautiousness.....spirit motive behind the creature is what shows it 'good or evil'
a serpent can rid a barn of mice that 'spoil' the wheat...an honourable purpose and function
satan is a spirit/tool used to destroy what God would have destroyed...but the 'hammer' will not exalt itself over He that weilds it
SPIRITUAL EXPIERENCE COMES BY TRIAL AND ERROR WHETHER OBEDIANT OR DIS OBEDIANT [Christ obediant,us disobediant at times]
a mere child shall lead them...
now man has tamed all animals..but the tongue[serpent cloven tongue/unclean lips] that is why Holy spirit come in the form of cloven tongues
of fire[coal to lips] subtle discernment of spirits/distinctions,rightly dividing/righteous judgement.....purifying unclean 'liar and murdering lips] into tongues of truth
grace,love.
the tribe of Benjamin was as a ravening wolf...that became a distributor of food
"Let us remember that Satan is not the "angel" of the pit, nor does he hold the "key" to the pit, nor is he the "king" over the pit. All of this has been transferred to our Lord Jesus Christ who is Lord of all! Satan is a nobody and has no power at all. Someone says, "But, brother Eby, it says that the name of this angel of the bottomless pit, or this king over the locusts, is Abaddon and Apollyon — which mean DESTROYER! Surely that can't be Christ!" I will confess that my view of Abaddon and Apollyon is very different from most. I make no effort to connect these names with the devil, the antichrist, nor any other dark personage or power. Apollyon is the "angel" of the abyss or the one who has power and control over the abyss. Here he has the "key" to the abyss and authority to open it.
Now let us UNDERSTAND! "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is called the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. And he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more..." (Rev. 20:1-3). Now let us consider some pertinent questions. In this symbolic scene, who is it that has the key to the abyss? An angel! Where is the angel from? From heaven! Therefore, where did the key to the abyss come from? From heaven! What did the angel do? He bound the devil, shut him up in the pit, and locked it with the key! How, then, could Satan be the one who has the key? Impossible! Who is it that has bound, and does bind, the power of Satan? Our Lord Jesus Christ! Who is the symbolic "angel from heaven" all through the book of Revelation? Christ is! Ah, can we not see by this that the "destroyer," that is, Abaddon and Apollyon, is the Christ of God! This is not some negative entity out of a realm of darkness — this is CHRIST!" (Eby #115 Candle Stick series) Thoughts?
I have no idea what your trying to say. I am having computor probls today.
God has said'BY MY SPIRT...and I will not give MY GLORY TO ANOTHER......signifying an adversairal 'another' Christ has victory and dominion
through the spirit.The Glory is the victory and dominion....and it only comes through the spirit of God.
we are told to test the spirits, if it is of Christ thus God...and to NOT be misled by deceiving spirits
See the problem Molly is the fact that we are looking at this from different angles. You are still looking at this literally. Of course, the carnal mind didn't meet with God literally, or put sores on him literally. The question for you is what could this story be saying if it is indeed to be read like a parable? Have you ever read a parable that was spoken about by Jesus and say to yourself, "well that is ridiculous that wouldn't happen"? Probably not. And the reason? Because it is to be read symbolically.
So can the carnal mind destroy homes, takes lives, steal health, steal wealth...basically cause catastrophic damage to a person and their family? No? I deal with a whole population of people that would disagree with you.
It's all about how you look at Job. If you believe it's a literal story and I believe it to be a parable...then we will just need to agree to disagree and move on.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 08, 2011, 07:01:49 PM
"Let us remember that Satan is not the "angel" of the pit, nor does he hold the "key" to the pit, nor is he the "king" over the pit. All of this has been transferred to our Lord Jesus Christ who is Lord of all! Satan is a nobody and has no power at all. Someone says, "But, brother Eby, it says that the name of this angel of the bottomless pit, or this king over the locusts, is Abaddon and Apollyon — which mean DESTROYER! Surely that can't be Christ!" I will confess that my view of Abaddon and Apollyon is very different from most. I make no effort to connect these names with the devil, the antichrist, nor any other dark personage or power. Apollyon is the "angel" of the abyss or the one who has power and control over the abyss. Here he has the "key" to the abyss and authority to open it.
Now let us UNDERSTAND! "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is called the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. And he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more..." (Rev. 20:1-3). Now let us consider some pertinent questions. In this symbolic scene, who is it that has the key to the abyss? An angel! Where is the angel from? From heaven! Therefore, where did the key to the abyss come from? From heaven! What did the angel do? He bound the devil, shut him up in the pit, and locked it with the key! How, then, could Satan be the one who has the key? Impossible! Who is it that has bound, and does bind, the power of Satan? Our Lord Jesus Christ! Who is the symbolic "angel from heaven" all through the book of Revelation? Christ is! Ah, can we not see by this that the "destroyer," that is, Abaddon and Apollyon, is the Christ of God! This is not some negative entity out of a realm of darkness — this is CHRIST!" (Eby #115 Candle Stick series) Thoughts?
I see the angel with the key is from God and maybe Jesus gives him the key to open the pit and the evil king escapes with a large army, but I don't see the angel of the bottomless pit being christ. This is, rather wishful thinking. Just because Universal reconciliation is true, does not mean that all of a sudden evil beings, become fluffy hamsters :icon_flower:.
Evil cannot be reasoned with, it's purpose is to thief, kill and destroy. Jesus paid a heavy price in order to disarm them.
I see these as pertinent questions, Molly;
"So God [or Job's carnal mind - addition mine] killed Job's animals and children and servants, caused Job's house to burn down, and caused boils all over Job's body?
So who is this middleman called satan in the Job story?"
I believe that "middleman" is the tool, satan, used by God to accomplish His purposes - but that satan also does often work through our carnal mind, seeking to kill and destroy. Looking at Job as a parable seems worth considering to me too, but even so, I'm still not sure there aren't plenty of other mentions of satan that would indicate a being rather then solely our carnal mind (Jesus' temptations, for just one example). :2c:
Alright, I'll try to get back out and let others discuss.
IMO, we ALL see through a glass darkly, and this is probably not to be our biggest focus. :bigGrin:
Should I embrace this as a literal story only, what am I going away with?
In spite of how much of a righteous life we live, God will turn satan loose on us with no warning "to" us or comfort "for" us through the attack.
If you read the whole story of Job in the Old Testament, the guy complained the entire time. Yes, he had terrible things happen to him but the story is just so depressing. He had everything ripped from him, he was tormented by those he once confided in, his own wife gave up on him and told him to just curse God and die . .get it over with. That's what "we" as servants of the most High God have to look forward to?
What was Job's reward in the end? He walked away with greater possessions than he had going in. But the greater question for me is . . .was it really worth it? Was it worth seeing his kids, the ones he loved so much he actually gave animal sacrifices on their behalf . . .only to see a tornado kill them all. Was it worth it? All that he had, all his livestock suffered and died, was it worth the death of all he had only to have it be replaced by more of the same? Is "that" really all this story is about? Worldly possessions??? A better wife than before, more cattle, more sheep . . .yay me. Now what?
And then there's still the fact that God talks more to satan here than he does to Job. Job didn't have a clue that this was coming. If you follow the storyline, he wasn't putting his trust in God because of his love for God . . .a Daniel or Joseph he wasn't. What he kept reaffirming was the fact that regardless of how sick he was, how bad his life got, it wasn't because he did anything wrong, which was the traditional reasoning. If you were sick it's because you had sin in your life. That even carried over into the New Testament when the disciples asked Jesus what bad things this cripple guy did to become a cripple . . .
But to just take the story of Job at face value, there's so much of the nature of God that is missing for me.
Shawn I LOVE what you wrote about how the NATURE of the adversary takes away family members, causes friends to make fun and despise you, bring you to a state of sickness even . . .you don't think your mind can make you sick? You do realize worry is one of the greatest forces of nature . . .greater than hurricanes or tornadoes. People literally go crazy . . .I mean . . .looney, they literally lose their minds because their mind became so warped and obsessed that it ruined their entire life.
When Paul speaks about my mind being at enmity against God, for me that's a direct link to the relationship between Eve and the serpent. That's not the first time Paul connected the dots between my mind and the serpent with Eve . . .see for yourself . . .
2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ
Eve represents my mind, the serpent is the carnality that corrupted my mind.
Quote from: ShawnSo can the carnal mind destroy homes, takes lives, steal health, steal wealth...basically cause catastrophic damage to a person and their family? No? I deal with a whole population of people that would disagree with you.
Yes, I can understand the population you are talking about, they destroy their own and each others lives.
But, not Job. Job was a righteous man, perfect in all his ways. We know this to be true, because God tells us so.
So it makes no sense that this would apply to Job. Nor does he change when disaster after disaster begins to happen to him. He stays faithful to God. He passes the test.
No, I don't see this story as a parable. Nor can anyone explain to me what it might mean as a parable. Job stands for what? his wife stands for what? Satan stands for what? His children stand for what? The sons of God stand for what? The friends stand for what?
Quote from: TTJust because Universal reconciliation is true, does not mean that all of a sudden evil beings, become fluffy hamsters .
Evil cannot be reasoned with, it's purpose is to thief, kill and destroy. Jesus paid a heavy price in order to disarm them.
Agree. Jesus whole ministry is about destroying the enemy of God and man.
Quote from: NathanShould I embrace this as a literal story only, what am I going away with?
In spite of how much of a righteous life we live, God will turn satan loose on us with no warning "to" us or comfort "for" us through the attack
As a literal story, you will take away a lot. Job is a righteous man, meaning he had Christ with which he overcame the evil one. Greater is the one in you than the one in the world. So take heart! Persevere. Job was given a double blessing at the end, the blessing of Joseph.
QuoteWas it worth it?
Yes, of course, because the conclusion is-- I know that my redeemer lives and in my flesh I shall see God.
It also gives us a look behind the scenes at what is going on in the heavenlies, which is part of the big picture for those of us who know that we literally will end up there ourselves.
My problem with treating everything as not literal is --where do you draw the line? Ok no real Satan, so is there a real God? No real enemy but the carnal mind, so is this all in my mind? And so on.
So, in your mind Molly it makes more sense to assume God was playing a cosmic game with the devil over the life of Job? In your opinion, what was the purpose?
You're probably not going to understand this any better, but you ask where I draw the line . . .and that's just it. When you look at it spiritually, there are no lines to be drawn. Remember? The spirit is like the wind, you can't tell from where it comes to where it goes . . .SUCH ARE THOSE WHO ARE BORN OF THE SPIRIT . . . no lines of what you can and can't see. It takes my logic out of the scenario. And yes, it "changes" my original perception of who God is in the first place. It changes my opinion of what and where heaven is. It changes everything. No lines drawn because no boundaries to try to contain and control it. What is shared is merely what is revealed, not because we've done our math and this is our conclusions.
Life that is abundant from the spirit of truth is the result of allowing the walls to come down and letting God show me what he desires, regardless as to how much sense it may or may not make to my logic. Should it challenge my original fortress of doctrine on who the devil is, so be it. I lay down every teaching of men willingly and let God burn every form of chaff, wood, hay, straw . . .should there be anything left, I will embrace it with all my heart. Should the form of satan be changed in that process, I embrace that as well. Should others question the validity of my personal transitioning of what I see and believe, let them measure what they will.
Quote from: NathanYou're probably not going to understand this any better, but you ask where I draw the line . . .and that's just it. When you look at it spiritually, there are no lines to be drawn. Remember? The spirit is like the wind, you can't tell from where it comes to where it goes . . .SUCH ARE THOSE WHO ARE BORN OF THE SPIRIT . . . no lines of what you can and can't see
This I mostly agree with, but then why do you draw a line at the literal? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, as they say.
Quote from: ShawnSo, in your mind Molly it makes more sense to assume God was playing a cosmic game with the devil over the life of Job? In your opinion, what was the purpose?
That's not how I see this story. This story started with God bragging on his servant Job. Wouldn't you like God to brag on you? And, what about Job? It brings Job into a much closer relationship with God:
5I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. [Job 42]
Quote from: NathanShould the form of satan be changed in that process, I embrace that as well. Should others question the validity of my personal transitioning of what I see and believe, let them measure what they will.
You haven't yet convinced me that this story shows Satan as the carnal mind, or anything other than 'the prosecutor' in the council of God who accuses God's people. Job stays faithful.
This story is very meaningful to me because it taught me so many things at a time when I was re-finding God because I had so much evil coming at me. It teaches about how God hedges in his people. About how he controls Satan, and will not let Satan kill Job. About how God can see the big picture and is in control and protecting Job, even though it might not look that way to the flesh. It teaches how to be strong, how to hold on, how to persevere, how to stand [a military term meaning to stand and face the opposing army instead of running like a coward]. It is about how Job keeps walking by faith--no matter what--which is what we all HAVE to do. As a literal story, it's one of the richest stories in the Bible.
So, you believe the story of Job to be about God bragging on his servant Job? And for his obedience God grants satan the ability to take everything from Job.
And if this is Job's lot...what can the rest of us sinful men expect? If I looked at Job like this, I would have a hard time sleeping at night.
Quote from: shawn on November 08, 2011, 11:53:26 PM
So, you believe the story of Job to be about God bragging on his servant Job? And for his obedience God grants satan the ability to take everything from Job.
And if this is Job's lot...what can the rest of us sinful men expect? If I looked at Job like this, I would have a hard time sleeping at night.
We can expect that Jesus has already judged the ruler of this world, and put him under our feet.
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. [Lk 10:19]
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2011, 11:59:48 PM
We can expect that Jesus has already judged the ruler of this world, and put him under our feet.
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
[Lk 10:19]
That caught my attention Molly - rightly dividing between the old and new. That's something I OFTEN fail to do, and that's a blessing. Thanks!
It's all for our learning, but it's true that if we look at God as He dealt with natural Israel and directly applied every detail of that literally to us today, then yep, I'd be in trouble too! :mshock: Wouldn't be pretty. Thankfully God's Plan is for the age
s. Blessings.
Something beautiful, something good
All my confusion He understood
All I had to offer Him was brokeness and stife
But he made something beautiful of my life
- Bill Gaither
Quote from: jabcat on November 09, 2011, 12:17:25 AM
Something beautiful, something good
All my confusion He understood
All I had to offer Him was brokeness and stife
But he made something beautiful of my life
- Bill Gaither
The Gaither's wrote some very good songs.
Molly, what do get out the Book of Job taking it literally?
Just what do you receive from that book as history and literal that helps you spiritually in your walk?
The adversary/satan is brought forth as a proper noun, as a being;
That is how theology and religion presents the book; but is not the adversary a spirit?
Is it not religion and theology that led us in the direction of a personal entity?
"Job 1:7 And Yahweh said unto the accuser" Rotherhamn
"Job 1:7 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary.." YLT
"Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan." KJV
Doesnt Paul teach us Eph 6:11 put on the whole armour of God, for your being able to stand against the wiles of the devil,
Eph 6:12 because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;
As you know I contend and believe the entire Bible is a parable and certainly Job, is a parable.
Jesus spoke in parables.... Mat 13:34 All these things Jesus speaks in parables to the throngs, and apart from a parable He spoke nothing to them,
I
Quote from: MicahThat is how theology and religion presents the book; but is not the adversary a spirit?
Can't you be both a spirit AND a person? I know you as a spirit. So I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Satan--the spirit being filling that role in Job--has a definite personality,
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
4And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
5But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
6And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
7So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
---Job 2
QuoteIs it not religion and theology that led us in the direction of a personal entity?
Does that mean it's automatically wrong because religion never gets anything right?
You say this story is a parable but I still cannot see how to read it as a parable--if you or others care to explain that more, I'll listen. There's a lot in this Book that I don't understand. But I find the basic story to be pretty simple and straightforward.
As I pointed out in an earlier post, in the OT, many different characters seem to be filling the role of Satan, but in the NT there is [mostly] only one we are concerned with, the serpent of Genesis 3:1. When he falls, they all fall.
And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. [Rev 20:2]
Quote from: Molly on November 09, 2011, 07:18:33 AM
Quote from: MicahThat is how theology and religion presents the book; but is not the adversary a spirit?
Can't you be both a spirit AND a person? I know you as a spirit. So I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Satan--the spirit being filling that role in Job--has a definite personality,
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
4And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
5But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
6And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
7So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
---Job 2
QuoteIs it not religion and theology that led us in the direction of a personal entity?
Does that mean it's automatically wrong because religion never gets anything right?
You say this story is a parable but I still cannot see how to read it as a parable--if you or others care to explain that more, I'll listen. There's a lot in this Book that I don't understand. But I find the basic story to be pretty simple and straightforward.
As I pointed out in an earlier post, in the OT, many different characters seem to be filling the role of Satan, but in the NT there is [mostly] only one we are concerned with, the serpent of Genesis 3:1. When he falls, they all fall.
And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. [Rev 20:2]
I, am not a spirit...the vessel that I have been given to dwell in temporarily makes me a breathing creature aka a living soul...
"i" am OF THE SPIRIT and one with HIM.
Not to to be offensive or hard of speech but,
You will not allow yourself to see or understand the book of Job as a parable ( it would seem.)
Man depends much on their earthy understanding, which is the weight that shackles them from the greater knowledge that remains hidden until they see.
:cloud9: My :2c:.....I see Job both literal and spiritual. EVERYTHING in there is both literal and spiritual in application. It can be no other way BECAUSE the literal (body) HAS to do what it "sees" it's head (spiritual) do. One sees the spiritual only, one sees the literal only, and then the *fireworks* begin, but both are correct, IMO.
And: Job is a pattern for the Tabernacles experience, because Job receives the DOUBLE PORTION. Blessings..... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2011, 11:36:57 PM
Quote from: NathanYou're probably not going to understand this any better, but you ask where I draw the line . . .and that's just it. When you look at it spiritually, there are no lines to be drawn. Remember? The spirit is like the wind, you can't tell from where it comes to where it goes . . .SUCH ARE THOSE WHO ARE BORN OF THE SPIRIT . . . no lines of what you can and can't see
This I mostly agree with, but then why do you draw a line at the literal? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, as they say.
I'm not sure I understand your argument. It's not that I'm drawing the line, I just think there's so much more beyond the one you've already drawn, which is the natural or literal. Spiritual realm is "above" natural and we're called to walk in the spirit . . .so I have no issues of taking note of natural, only for the use of seeing what direction it's taking spiritually.
It's kind of like after Jesus was crucified and resurrected and returned to the disciples. They were totally ready for him to literally become the king of Israel, literally . . .and they were talking amongst themselves as to what their picking order would be and Jesus basically told them even then that he didn't come to be the literal king and their discussion was a waste of time because his directive was about spiritual order and not literal.
And even before that when he sent them out to basically prepare the atmosphere in the cities he himself would be passing through and they came back bewildered that even demons respond when they use his name and his response to that? "Don't let that distract you from what really matters, and that is the fact that your name is written in the book of life . . ." Again, literal not as important as we tend to make it to be.
Luke 10
17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
This kinda opens a whole other can of worms . . .if satan is spirit, then how can Jesus see him fall "from" heaven, when heaven is spirit as well? Now if I liken this to the serpent in the tree that would represent carnal nature, the tree of knowledge was in the garden, which for me was a spiritual place, which of course is heaven, and when Adam ate from Eve they were not the only ones removed from the garden, but the serpent was as well and after all of that was over with, the only thing mentioned still in the garden after that was the tree of life . . .the tree of knowledge "became" the dominant realm we live in now . . .but again, I'm sure I'm a minority on that one as well. But . . . the passage in Luke would then "fit" into that as Jesus indicates there was a removal from one realm into another.
Because of our limited abilities in life, we just can't comprehend exactly "what" the serpents role was "before" the act of deceit took place. But for me, carnality in and of itself wasn't the problem. It was part of the balance in the kingdom. The problem with it happened when "it" became the emphasis in Adam's life. I personally believe that was why Jesus then tied demons in with the falling of satan and walking on SERPENTS . . .he took it back to the garden . . .satan and serpents are one and the same. It even says that in Revelation. It's merely a NATURE of ADVERSARY proportions to God's righteousness.
When we look at it from an ascended place, it's under our feet. But when we look at it from a fallen place, from a "natural state" then it's not only NOT under our feet, but it's ALL we can see. Death, doom, gloom, destruction, judgment, condemnation, control, hopelessness . . .the list goes on and on. We all have "the" adversary nature in us, but those who walk in the spirit are not deceived or influenced by it's subtly in our lives.
Quote from: Cardinal on November 09, 2011, 03:21:43 PM
:cloud9: My :2c:.....I see Job both literal and spiritual. EVERYTHING in there is both literal and spiritual in application. It can be no other way BECAUSE the literal (body) HAS to do what it "sees" it's head (spiritual) do. One sees the spiritual only, one sees the literal only, and then the *fireworks* begin, but both are correct, IMO.
And: Job is a pattern for the Tabernacles experience, because Job receives the DOUBLE PORTION. Blessings..... :HeartThrob:
This I would agree with, and I would love to hear you expound on the spiritual behind Job.
I also said earlier that Job received the double blessing of Joseph. Is the double blessing combining both natural and spiritual?
It's seems like a picture of resurrection.
Quote from: NathanBecause of our limited abilities in life, we just can't comprehend exactly "what" the serpents role was "before" the act of deceit took place.
Jesus tells us "the devil" was a murderer from the beginning. Could he be referring here to the specific being in the garden?
He tells the Pharisees they are serpents, a generation of vipers, and like their father, the devil.
One thing he's not saying here is that Adam is the serpent. Jesus called himself son of Adam.
Quote from: Cardinal on November 09, 2011, 03:21:43 PM
:cloud9: My :2c:.....I see Job both literal and spiritual. EVERYTHING in there is both literal and spiritual in application. It can be no other way BECAUSE the literal (body) HAS to do what it "sees" it's head (spiritual) do. One sees the spiritual only, one sees the literal only, and then the *fireworks* begin, but both are correct, IMO.
And: Job is a pattern for the Tabernacles experience, because Job receives the DOUBLE PORTION. Blessings..... :HeartThrob:
Isee in Job The pattern laid out in the ABOVE, prior to it being walked out in the physicall~ The Literal is the platform of the spiritual as is the Torah of The Living Word~ one the Witness of the Spiritual reality :icon_flower:
Quote from: jabcat on November 09, 2011, 12:07:23 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2011, 11:59:48 PM
We can expect that Jesus has already judged the ruler of this world, and put him under our feet.
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
[Lk 10:19]
That caught my attention Molly - rightly dividing between the old and new. That's something I OFTEN fail to do, and that's a blessing. Thanks!
It's all for our learning, but it's true that if we look at God as He dealt with natural Israel and directly applied every detail of that literally to us today, then yep, I'd be in trouble too! :mshock: Wouldn't be pretty. Thankfully God's Plan is for the ages. Blessings.
And I understand what you are saying. But, we are talking about the nature of God here and that doesn't change. How Molly understands the nature of God through the book of Job, certainly isn't how I understand the nature of God. Does that make Molly wrong, me right or vice versa? Is it about one point of view lording over another? And while I believe the book of Job to be a literal story with personification of spiritual elements that doesn't make it so. But, what I see now, probably won't be what I see tomorrow. Does it really matter how I view satan? I don't believe so...at least not in the grand scheme of things. I don't believe it effects my relationship to Christ. And while I lean more towards the view that satan is a non person spiritual entity, that doesn't mean I will believe that tomorrow.
Sometimes I feel like we as believers are so set on having a firm opinion about spiritual things. We feel wishy washy, swayed by the wind if we don't take a dogmatic stance about a particular subject. I would suggest this...being dogmatic about most things inhibits growth. It is one more wall preventing revelation through relationship. It's one more area that we are in essence saying is "off limits". Me...I no longer want to live like that.
Another piece of the puzzle:
John 5:22 [Jesus speaking]: "Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgement to the Son...."
God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
[John 3:17]
"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.
[John 12:47]
John 8:15 [Jesus speaking]: "You [Jews/Pharisees] judge by human standards; I pass judgement on no one."
The judgment is entrusted to the Son but he has not come to judge the world but to save it. Jesus did not come to judge men but to judge the devil.
John 12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
John 3:8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
The world's sin is that it refuses to believe in me.
Righteousness is available because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more.
Judgment will come because the ruler of this world has already been judged. [John 16:9,10,11]
Same chapter.
25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (this isn't about literal dead people at the rapture in the far distant future)
26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Because this isn't about a future event, nor is it about literal dead people, it then tells me this is speaking about spiritual dead and the light will bring it's illumination to those who are of the spirit and those who are of the flesh, just what the Word of God does as it's sharper than any two edged (spirit and flesh) sword that DIVIDES SPIRIT FROM FLESH . . .life from death, bone from marrow . . .
30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
In our eyes, judgment is a negative thing, in God's eyes, judgment isn't destructive "to" us, it destroys the carnal nature "in" us, it's influential power, control and bondage. For me, the cross brought judgment upon all men through the Son of man. "That" was our judgment. not just those that ask him into their hearts, but for ALL men. But those that do acknowledge him in this realm, receive eternal life in this realm . . .again, this isn't about physically living forever. This is about resurrection life demolishing the limitations of our understanding . . .eternal . .without end . . .
Asking Christ in my heart doesn't cause my carnality to disappear . . . remember, in it's proper place, carnality, flesh, natural desires .. .they are not evil in and of themselves. But when we turn our reliance away from Life and "to" our own imaginations, "that's" when carnality becomes adversarial and we get into trouble. So, asking Christ in my heart merely puts carnality in it's place. Even when Jesus dealt with your version of satan and demons, he never destroyed them, he merely controlled them.
and Men Shall fall \die Like Princes~Death\Flesh is JUDGED and becomes No more ~ as Life is in the NEW DAY ABOVE~
the word Prince comes from HE who holds Dominion~ as did the carnal Minded man\Old ManPrince\esau Cain all women born barren Sarai Rebekkah , Rachel~ The seprents Belly Barren in the DUST, oj\Pharoah\EgyptSodom\Babylon et all etc etc
Psa 82:1 [[A Psalm of Asaph.]] God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
Psa 82:2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
Psa 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Psa 82:4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid [them] out of the hand of the wicked.
Psa 82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
Psa 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Psa 82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
Quote from: shawn on November 09, 2011, 05:15:53 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 09, 2011, 12:07:23 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2011, 11:59:48 PM
We can expect that Jesus has already judged the ruler of this world, and put him under our feet.
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
[Lk 10:19]
That caught my attention Molly - rightly dividing between the old and new. That's something I OFTEN fail to do, and that's a blessing. Thanks!
It's all for our learning, but it's true that if we look at God as He dealt with natural Israel and directly applied every detail of that literally to us today, then yep, I'd be in trouble too! :mshock: Wouldn't be pretty. Thankfully God's Plan is for the ages. Blessings.
And I understand what you are saying. But, we are talking about the nature of God here and that doesn't change. How Molly understands the nature of God through the book of Job, certainly isn't how I understand the nature of God. Does that make Molly wrong, me right or vice versa? Is it about one point of view lording over another? And while I believe the book of Job to be a literal story with personification of spiritual elements that doesn't make it so. But, what I see now, probably won't be what I see tomorrow. Does it really matter how I view satan? I don't believe so...at least not in the grand scheme of things. I don't believe it effects my relationship to Christ. And while I lean more towards the view that satan is a non person spiritual entity, that doesn't mean I will believe that tomorrow.
Sometimes I feel like we as believers are so set on having a firm opinion about spiritual things. We feel wishy washy, swayed by the wind if we don't take a dogmatic stance about a particular subject. I would suggest this...being dogmatic about most things inhibits growth. It is one more wall preventing revelation through relationship. It's one more area that we are in essence saying is "off limits". Me...I no longer want to live like that.
Excellent post in (mho) especially, " Does it really matter how I view satan? I don't believe so...at least not in the grand scheme of things. I don't believe it effects my relationship to Christ."
Quote from: Nathan on November 09, 2011, 05:58:31 PM
Same chapter.
25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (this isn't about literal dead people at the rapture in the far distant future)
26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Because this isn't about a future event, nor is it about literal dead people, it then tells me this is speaking about spiritual dead and the light will bring it's illumination to those who are of the spirit and those who are of the flesh, just what the Word of God does as it's sharper than any two edged (spirit and flesh) sword that DIVIDES SPIRIT FROM FLESH . . .life from death, bone from marrow . . .
30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
In our eyes, judgment is a negative thing, in God's eyes, judgment isn't destructive "to" us, it destroys the carnal nature "in" us, it's influential power, control and bondage. For me, the cross brought judgment upon all men through the Son of man. "That" was our judgment. not just those that ask him into their hearts, but for ALL men. But those that do acknowledge him in this realm, receive eternal life in this realm . . .again, this isn't about physically living forever. This is about resurrection life demolishing the limitations of our understanding . . .eternal . .without end . . .
Asking Christ in my heart doesn't cause my carnality to disappear . . . remember, in it's proper place, carnality, flesh, natural desires .. .they are not evil in and of themselves. But when we turn our reliance away from Life and "to" our own imaginations, "that's" when carnality becomes adversarial and we get into trouble. So, asking Christ in my heart merely puts carnality in it's place. Even when Jesus dealt with your version of satan and demons, he never destroyed them, he merely controlled them.
"
In our eyes, judgment is a negative thing..." Nathan
I do not see judgment as negative, have not for sometime now. Fact is I, me, myself personally... do not see negative in the Bible. I've been led to know that to be a truth.
Quote from: Cardinal on November 09, 2011, 03:21:43 PM
:cloud9: My :2c:.....I see Job both literal and spiritual. EVERYTHING in there is both literal and spiritual in application. It can be no other way BECAUSE the literal (body) HAS to do what it "sees" it's head (spiritual) do. One sees the spiritual only, one sees the literal only, and then the *fireworks* begin, but both are correct, IMO.
And: Job is a pattern for the Tabernacles experience, because Job receives the DOUBLE PORTION. Blessings..... :HeartThrob:
:2thumbs: AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 09, 2011, 06:23:05 PM
Quote from: Nathan on November 09, 2011, 05:58:31 PM
Same chapter.
25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (this isn't about literal dead people at the rapture in the far distant future)
26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Because this isn't about a future event, nor is it about literal dead people, it then tells me this is speaking about spiritual dead and the light will bring it's illumination to those who are of the spirit and those who are of the flesh, just what the Word of God does as it's sharper than any two edged (spirit and flesh) sword that DIVIDES SPIRIT FROM FLESH . . .life from death, bone from marrow . . .
30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
In our eyes, judgment is a negative thing, in God's eyes, judgment isn't destructive "to" us, it destroys the carnal nature "in" us, it's influential power, control and bondage. For me, the cross brought judgment upon all men through the Son of man. "That" was our judgment. not just those that ask him into their hearts, but for ALL men. But those that do acknowledge him in this realm, receive eternal life in this realm . . .again, this isn't about physically living forever. This is about resurrection life demolishing the limitations of our understanding . . .eternal . .without end . . .
Asking Christ in my heart doesn't cause my carnality to disappear . . . remember, in it's proper place, carnality, flesh, natural desires .. .they are not evil in and of themselves. But when we turn our reliance away from Life and "to" our own imaginations, "that's" when carnality becomes adversarial and we get into trouble. So, asking Christ in my heart merely puts carnality in it's place. Even when Jesus dealt with your version of satan and demons, he never destroyed them, he merely controlled them.
"
In our eyes, judgment is a negative thing..." Nathan
I do not see judgment as negative, have not for sometime now. Fact is I, me, myself personally... do not see negative in the Bible. I've been led to know that to be a truth.
You're a minority then.
Quote from: Cardinal on November 09, 2011, 03:21:43 PM
:cloud9: My :2c:.....I see Job both literal and spiritual. EVERYTHING in there is both literal and spiritual in application. It can be no other way BECAUSE the literal (body) HAS to do what it "sees" it's head (spiritual) do. One sees the spiritual only, one sees the literal only, and then the *fireworks* begin, but both are correct, IMO.
And: Job is a pattern for the Tabernacles experience, because Job receives the DOUBLE PORTION. Blessings..... :HeartThrob:
I guess it is where your head is at. :cloud9:
Quote from: Nathan on November 09, 2011, 07:32:17 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 09, 2011, 06:23:05 PM
Quote from: Nathan on November 09, 2011, 05:58:31 PM
Same chapter.
25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (this isn't about literal dead people at the rapture in the far distant future)
26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Because this isn't about a future event, nor is it about literal dead people, it then tells me this is speaking about spiritual dead and the light will bring it's illumination to those who are of the spirit and those who are of the flesh, just what the Word of God does as it's sharper than any two edged (spirit and flesh) sword that DIVIDES SPIRIT FROM FLESH . . .life from death, bone from marrow . . .
30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
In our eyes, judgment is a negative thing, in God's eyes, judgment isn't destructive "to" us, it destroys the carnal nature "in" us, it's influential power, control and bondage. For me, the cross brought judgment upon all men through the Son of man. "That" was our judgment. not just those that ask him into their hearts, but for ALL men. But those that do acknowledge him in this realm, receive eternal life in this realm . . .again, this isn't about physically living forever. This is about resurrection life demolishing the limitations of our understanding . . .eternal . .without end . . .
Asking Christ in my heart doesn't cause my carnality to disappear . . . remember, in it's proper place, carnality, flesh, natural desires .. .they are not evil in and of themselves. But when we turn our reliance away from Life and "to" our own imaginations, "that's" when carnality becomes adversarial and we get into trouble. So, asking Christ in my heart merely puts carnality in it's place. Even when Jesus dealt with your version of satan and demons, he never destroyed them, he merely controlled them.
"
In our eyes, judgment is a negative thing..." Nathan
I do not see judgment as negative, have not for sometime now. Fact is I, me, myself personally... do not see negative in the Bible. I've been led to know that to be a truth.
You're a minority then.
Yep and I thank the Lord for the insight. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on November 09, 2011, 05:29:13 PM
Another piece of the puzzle:
John 5:22 [Jesus speaking]: "Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgement to the Son...."
God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
[John 3:17]
"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.
[John 12:47]
John 8:15 [Jesus speaking]: "You [Jews/Pharisees] judge by human standards; I pass judgement on no one."
The judgment is entrusted to the Son but he has not come to judge the world but to save it. Jesus did not come to judge men but to judge the devil.
John 12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
John 3:8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
The world's sin is that it refuses to believe in me.
Righteousness is available because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more.
Judgment will come because the ruler of this world has already been judged. [John 16:9,10,11]
:cloud9: Here's some things to ponder that tie in with these. Jesus was the Word (that is and always has been, Spirit) MADE FLESH. He said, paraphrasing because I'm short on time, "I (speaking as the Son that is NOT visible, ie. the Spirit) don't judge you, but the WORD (letter and the natural man) judges you."
How did the flesh Word judge? Because He as flesh man was representative of the letter and part of the waters below the firmament (the firmament was called heaven), ie. the Word that was visible. The law/letter judges the flesh, but the Spirit is love and against love there is no law.
This is why He said above that righteousness (which comes via His SPIRIT ONLY) was available, because He (was released from the visible, literal, natural) went to the Father, and so, indeed they saw Him ie. the visible, literal, natural representation of the Son that is Spirit, no more.
So that Seed that ascended (no man has ascended except who first descended and He who first descended is/was the SPIRIT SON called CHRIST) was as a drop of moisture that is received up into the clouds, to come back again as RAIN, even as the latter rain of the sons of God (the multiple-yet-one, fullness of Him as a many-membered body that is SPIRIT), seeded into the earth (-en vessels) as the firstfruits of the harvest of Tabernacles. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on November 10, 2011, 12:18:09 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 09, 2011, 05:29:13 PM
Another piece of the puzzle:
John 5:22 [Jesus speaking]: "Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgement to the Son...."
God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
[John 3:17]
"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.
[John 12:47]
John 8:15 [Jesus speaking]: "You [Jews/Pharisees] judge by human standards; I pass judgement on no one."
The judgment is entrusted to the Son but he has not come to judge the world but to save it. Jesus did not come to judge men but to judge the devil.
John 12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
John 3:8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
The world's sin is that it refuses to believe in me.
Righteousness is available because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more.
Judgment will come because the ruler of this world has already been judged. [John 16:9,10,11]
:cloud9: Here's some things to ponder that tie in with these. Jesus was the Word (that is and always has been, Spirit) MADE FLESH. He said, paraphrasing because I'm short on time, "I (speaking as the Son that is NOT visible, ie. the Spirit) don't judge you, but the WORD (letter and the natural man) judges you."
How did the flesh Word judge? Because He as flesh man was representative of the letter and part of the waters below the firmament (the firmament was called heaven), ie. the Word that was visible. The law/letter judges the flesh, but the Spirit is love and against love there is no law.
This is why He said above that righteousness (which comes via His SPIRIT ONLY) was available, because He (was released from the visible, literal, natural) went to the Father, and so, indeed they saw Him ie. the visible, literal, natural representation of the Son that is Spirit, no more.
So that Seed that ascended (no man has ascended except who first descended and He who first descended is/was the SPIRIT SON called CHRIST) was as a drop of moisture that is received up into the clouds, to come back again as RAIN, even as the latter rain of the sons of God (the multiple-yet-one, fullness of Him as a many-membered body that is SPIRIT), seeded into the earth (-en vessels) as the firstfruits of the harvest of Tabernacles. Blessings....
That's really beautiful, Cardinal. Thanks.
":cloud9: Here's some things to ponder that tie in with these. Jesus was the Word (that is and always has been, Spirit) MADE FLESH." Cardinal
Jesus IS the Word, The Saviour was Made flesh. You declare "that is and always has been Spirit" I contend that the Spirit is the very Energy and the Power and
Strenght (His muscles flexed for purpose and reason) the Father's Will do His Will. I contend that there are but The Father and The Son. To make the Holy(sacred)
Spirit(wind) the Power-Energy, an entity(personified) is the same as giving the adversary/satan and entity(personified), which I contend is product of our(mans) imagination.
God IS Spirit.
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.'
"So that Seed that ascended (no man has ascended except who first descended and He who first descended is/was the SPIRIT SON called CHRIST)" Cardinal
(When ever I have been led to bring forth that "no one, no man has ascended but Jesus" I am always get hit with Enoch and Elijah, even Moses were ascended.)
Your statement is true.
What you wrote below is beautifully said, yet, are you not the painter for this picture? I mean this is how YOU see it.
I do not doubt the gathering and falling of the early and the latter rain at the same time. Nor do I have any doubt of the consumation of Tabernacles; it just that it reads like, "that's it," either one is on that bus or.........?
"was as a drop of moisture that is received up into the clouds, to come back again as RAIN, even as the latter rain of the sons of God (the multiple-yet-one, fullness of Him as a many-membered body that is SPIRIT), seeded into the earth (-en vessels) as the firstfruits of the harvest of Tabernacles. Blessings...." Cardinal
I just weary of all the conclusions from brothers and sisters that I should see it their way. I want to, I desire to, but I have not been led to see "that way."
Maybe in time I will, maybe it will not. Peace and Love Through Jesus.
:cloud9: Micah, He is no respector of persons. Ask Him for wisdom; that's what I did. :HeartThrob: