Near death experience

[truthseeker]

 Has anyone read this Guy`s account of his time spent in hell, what do you think?  http://www.near-death.com/mccormack.html

[rosered]

  :mblush:
   I noted he wanted money for his ministry in the end of his page  :mshock:

[SQ]

Satan can appear as an Angel of Light.
2 Corinthians 11 : 13 - 15

13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel, for even Satan disguises himself into an agent of light. 15 Therefore, it is no great thing if his helpers also disguise themselves as helpers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

Possibly this is the answer. :dontknow:

[alihaymeg]

You know that argument from the perspective of reason that states that this kind of experience comes from a dreamlike state induced by physiological activity in the brain? Well, we should stop trying to discredit such scientifically based reasoning that has been substantiated. We dream about what we believe and what is real to us on a subconscious level.

Just because we are Christians and believe in God and an afterlife is no reason to reject scientific proof of a phenomenon. It's nice and cutesy to tell these stories and use them to try and prove our perspective, but the reality is that the truth requires no defense. The descriptions of Hell have been driven into our subconscious for so long that it is not at all surprising that someone whose heart has stopped and whose brain is set to auto pilot may start to conjure up these visions of Hell. So was he in Gahenna (the valley of Hinom), or Sheol, or Hades, or what?
"Come let us reason together" Reason is never unreasonable.

[WhiteWings]

You know that argument from the perspective of reason that states that this kind of experience comes from a dreamlike state induced by physiological activity in the brain?
......
We dream about what we believe and what is real to us on a subconscious level.

Some/many NDEs are from people that claim that they where atheists.
Shouldn't atheists have none religious NDEs if a NDE is just a 'dream above what we know/believe'?

[alihaymeg]

In theory, but how many of them have never heard of Hell? How many of them would be considdering their life after death at that moment? Even an atheist would be wondering.

[alihaymeg]

Should we base our religious beliefs on the stories of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens? It is the same kind of mental illusion. I prefer to base my beliefs on the Biblical texts. The original texts do not reflect the idea of eternal torment. Only after 500 years of universal restoration being the common teaching did eternal damnation sneak its way into popular belief. Not until the texts were translated into Latin did that occur.

[WhiteWings]

True, (almost) everyone has heard of hell.
But an atheist doesn't believe hell exists.
So I would think an atheist would have an NDE about his/her greatest hobby or something like that.
In general something that was of great importance in someones life. Having a good laugh at the Bible/Hell during your life doesn't qualify for that IMO

Why do religious people always have NDEs about heaven or hell?
Why not for example that they watch the crucifixion of Jesus. Or standing in the crowd listening to Jesus preaching. Witnessing the flood or any other important Biblical theme.
Etc.

There are also (many) hospital NDEs. People witness their own churgery, hear doctors speak and can remember details afterwards they can't know.

[sven]

what i would find interesting, depend NDEs on social background?

has a buddhist in india, ever had a "christian" hell NDE?

a muslim in lets say turkey, has there anyone ever had a NDE based on "christian" believes?

might christians in NDEs maybe see Jesus, muslims Mohammed, and buddhists Buddha?
or are all NDEs about the world similar, having a "christian" background?

[WhiteWings]

Muslims also believe in hell. According to this moslim NDE they also believe angels are made of white light.
http://www.near-death.com/muslim.html

Mebruke is a thirty-year-old Saudi Arabian living in New York City. At the age of twenty she was swimming in the Mediterranean Sea off the coast of Italy when she became tired. As she headed for shore, she realized that she was too far out to make it back. She began to struggle and swallow water. Finally she slipped beneath the waves.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I went under for the fourth time, and my body went limp and I wasn't aware of it anymore. It was at this point that I saw a beautiful white light. It was so bright and yet it had such a calming effect that the more I looked at it, the calmer I felt. To this day I can't really say what that light was. In my religion (Muslim) there are beings called angels who are made out of pure white light. Maybe that is what I saw.

Anyway, while I was underwater, I heard a voice say, "You are not to die like this." Suddenly I felt this energy shoot through me from my feet to my head, and at the same time I seemed to be propelled out of the water. It was as if someone was physically bringing me out of the water, but I can swear that there was no physical being there.

I was moved through the water, I don't know how else to describe it. Before long a boat came, and a man reached over the side and pulled me out. When he did that, I started to laugh because I was so glad to be out of the water.

http://pmhatwater.blogspot.com/2007/09/are-there-ndes-in-which-buddhist.html
"His main contention is that the being of light encountered in NDEs is most often seen as Jesus Christ, not other major religious figures as is often said. He cites cases of devout Muslims who encounter Christ in NDEs, but has challenged us to find even one case of a person of Islamic faith or Buddhist faith encountering other beings of light. The implication, whether he says it directly or not, is that there is only one path to God (the famous 'I am the light and the way' passage).
.....
The most common components of near-death states are the out-of-body experience and the light. There are many other components, but these are the most typical - both for adult and child experiencers - and have been throughout time and what we can know of history anywhere in the world. Light is not always experienced as a light being. Many times the focal point is the light itself as a loving and intelligent presence that is quite alive. The scripture of all the religious and sacred traditions known to exist talk about and try to describe this light, since it is as commonly experienced in religious and prayer life as with near-death experiencers and in other transformative shifts of consciousness. This is undisputed.
.....

It is true that those who report being greeted by a religious figure will usually associate that being with either the religion of their youth or one they are familiar with. Thus, most Christians will report being visited by Jesus, Buddhists by Buddha, and so forth. However, there can be mixups. Refer to "Beyond the Light" and the case of Jeanie Dicus. She was a Jew yet she was visited by Jesus. This so surprised her and confounded her that she promptly challenged Jesus, and continued to do so throughout her entire near-death episode, saying: "I don't believe in you. Why are you here?" Of note, atheists report the same type of visitations as do religious folk. In other words, you don't have to believe in anything to be surprised at what you find when you die or nearly die.

[WhiteWings]

— Teenage Muslim NDE due to drug reaction. This is the most detailed Muslim NDE we have encountered so far.

Anita M's NDE. 8/21/06 From Hong Kong: "I was drifting in and out of consciousness during this time, and I could feel my spirit actually leaving my body. I saw and heard the conversations between my husband and the doctors taking place outside my room, about forty feet away down a hallway. I was later able to verify this conversation to my shocked husband. Then I actually 'crossed over' to another dimension, where I was engulfed in a total feeling of love. I also experienced extreme clarity of why I had the cancer, why I had come into this life in the first place, what role everyone in my family played in my life in the grand scheme of things, and generally how life works. The clarity and understanding I obtained in this state is almost indescribable. Words seem to limit the experience—I was at a place where I understood how much more there is than what we are able to conceive in our 3-dimensional world. I realized what a gift life was, and that I was surrounded by loving spiritual beings, who were always around me even when I did not know it."

There are a few reports of NDE's by Muslims - but they show no characteristics of Islam ie no Mohammed, no virgins, no Allah etc etc, a white light, family members, but interestingly no life reviews or messages to bring back.

I know that according to Islam the dead sleep till judgement day, so anyone talking about an NDE might be accused of blasphemy - but there are 1.5 billion Muslims, there ought to be a lot more accounts of NDE's than there seem to be.

Researching Muslim NDEs, on the web at the NDERF home page, I find that there are only a handful of Muslim NDE experiences out of the thousands of NDE's they have listed on their web site. There is only one really deep Muslim NDE in which there is a reference to "the Light". Not surprisingly, this NDE occurred to a teenage boy. In the handful of somewhat deep Muslim NDEs that I have read about, the Muslim NDES never mentioned "the Light", "Supreme Being" or a "Being of Light". If this holds steady for all Muslim NDEs, then this will fall into stark contrast to the majority of deep Judeo/Christian NDE testimonies of s for the western world.

The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of `going'. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific s, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. (Murphy 99)

The Holy Bible by various Authors under the inspiration of God

Greyson and Bush (1996) classified 50 Western reports of distressing NDEs into three types:
* The most common type included the same features as the pleasurable type such as an out-of-body experience and rapid movement through a tunnel or void toward a light but the NDEr, usually because of feeling out of control of what was happening, experienced the features as frightening.
* The second, less common type included an acute awareness of nonexistence or of being completely alone forever in an absolute void. Sometimes the person received a totally convincing message that the real world including themselves never really existed. (note* according to one preliminary study , a similar type of this NDE may be common among the Buddhist culture in Chinese NDEs)
* The third and rarest type included hellish imagery such as an ugly or foreboding landscape; demonic beings; loud, annoying noises; frightening animals; and other beings in extreme distress. Only rarely have such NDErs themselves felt personally tormented.

The estimated incidence of distressing NDEs (dNDEs) for western cultures has ranged from 1% to 15% of all NDEs (Bonenfant, 2001). The results of prospective studies in which the researchers interviewed everyone who experienced cardiac arrest in one or more hospitals during a period of at least several months are noteworthy. In the four prospective studies conducted between 1984 and 2001 1, 2, 3, 4 involving a total of 130 NDErs, none reported distressing experiences. This finding seems to confirm that the experience is relatively rare in western cultures.

[AJ]

I asked another person who lives in NZ about this guy:
and the following is his response.



I have not heard of this chap, but have heard similar stories before. Quite frankly, they are a classic example of experience determining truth rather than what should be the other way round.

The Bible clearly teaches:

1) When dead, there is no remembrance, no thought.
2) There is no such thing as an immortal soul - we are a soul, we do not have a soul.
3) The only life after death is found in bodily resurrection - eg, Jesus the firstfruits. not soul going to heaven or hell
4) Hell is the grave not a place of eternal torment for sinful souls.

Was he really dead? I do not think so - if he was in a medic's care and later hospital, he would have had some sort of life support. To experience these things, his brain was still functioning and all of the things experienced were subjective - in his brain. That it caused him to be converted - great! But it does not negate Bible truth. He was in hell? and then wasn't? he said himself you can't pray out of hell - in tradition you go there or you don't!

The bight light and tunnel effects are caused by oxygen rushing back into the brain after a starvation of oxygen - he may have lost vital signs for a time, but he was certainly not clinically dead. The interesting thing is nobody ever has these experiences having been "dead" for say a week, or a whole day, or even a few hours. It is only a matter of minutes, during which time, depending on the circumstances, oxygen can be supplied and the brain and heart not suffer damage.

He appeared to be alive enough to see the doctor, turn his head etc. although the doctor seemed surprised that he was.
Maybe also the doctor was not too good at monitoring vital signs - perhaps the pulse was weak etc.

The dead know nothing - Ecc 9 v 5

The scripture quoted about the spirit going back ( Ecc) should be understood to be our breath. The Hebrew word is Ruach = literally breath, blast, wind. The life is in the blood through the oxygen that is in it. This is what God did in Gen 2 - breathed into man the braeth of life.

Good to hear from you again. Our thesis on the "Nature and Destiny of man" deals in detail with this subject.

God bless
John

[WhiteWings]

The dead know nothing - Ecc 9 v 5

To use that verse to debunk NDEs you need to understand when the things take place you see in the NDE.
If the hell NDE is about people in "hell" right now it is a lie.
But can't a hell NDE be a vision of the future? Then the dead are resurrected and know things again.

[alihaymeg]

As with most subjects like this one, it is open to interpretation. I don't see any convincing proof worthy of building a doctrine on. I can see why you would be able to pull some subjective evidential reasoning from it, but it is by no means concrete proof either way. The real proof of the nature of God seems to come from within a person. If you can believe that He is willing to lose even one of His children forever, then you may be able to justify eternal punishment. I personally have never been able to believe that about Him. Even though I was raised in an environment where eternal damnation was the accepted doctrine, it never made sense to me. Now I know why. Please forgive any offense that these statements may cause. It is not my intention to offend you. I just know what a freedom that comes with the realization that God is perfectly benevolent and; "Romans 5:20 (Young's Literal Translation) 20And law came in, that the offence might abound, and where the sin did abound, the grace did overabound."

I Corinthians 15:22. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

[WhiteWings]

The bight light and tunnel effects are caused by oxygen rushing back into the brain after a starvation of oxygen - he may have lost vital signs for a time, but he was certainly not clinically dead..

That perhaps can explain the white light.
But the white light usually is just the start of the NDE.
When you brain i shutting down I wouldn't expect that you can remember sound, views, smells, words. And certainly not as a clear 'story'

The interesting thing is nobody ever has these experiences having been "dead" for say a week, or a whole day, or even a few hours. It is only a matter of minutes, during which time, depending on the circumstances, oxygen can be supplied and the brain and heart not suffer damage.

There is one of IIRC a pastor in Africa that already was in his coffin for a while. The article decribes that his body was already decaying.

[Doc]

There are a number of NDE accounts that cannot be explained away so easily. I have read accounts of people who were clinically dead, not on life support for hours or days. On the whole, there are no significant differences between them and those with less verifiable accounts. McCormack's account is a fairly standard one, with the possible exception of what happened to him after he "came back". His is also one of the few where a salvation experience was had on the way to death or near death.

If NDE's are not 'real' experiences in some sense, (that are more than hallucinations) then explain to me how blind people (who've been so from birth) that have NDE's can see during their NDE's and recount detailed, verifiable visual data later that would be impossible for them to know otherwise.

[Nancy]

Hi TruthSeeker,

I am fascinated by near death experiences as i have read a few where people see their long deceased pets and that's what i'm interested in.

But to me they are fascinating.

I believe that we feel that we know EXACTLY what the bible writers meant when explaining death,etc, but i feel that maybe we don't and we shouldn't just pooh pooh these accounts which to the experiencers are very real and not at all 'satanic'. How can a 'satanic' NDE make you a better person afterwards, as lots of people have attested to?

I also believe in a kind of purgatory where people that aren't in the first resurrection maybe, go.  But nowhere do people say that they had to stay there forever. Several people said that when they prayed they instantaeously disappeared out of there!!!

But to me the most fascinating instances, is where the person floated above their bed and saw a trainer on the hospital roof, that they couldn't possibly have seen if they hadn't been floating on the ceiling proper!!! And of course the blind NDE's.

I keep a very open mind on all this.
Godbless
Nancy

[IceMan84]

This is a good site for reading NDE accounts and NDE research... www.near-death.com. Alot of the conclusions from NDE's coincide with Universalism. One thing that makes me skeptical though is that certain drugs, especially DMT, have been shown to be able to recreate the near death experience. Some scientists believe that DMT is released by the brain in situations of extreme stress, such as the process of dying, and this is what triggers the NDE. However, it still doesn't explain the cases with blind people being able to see and other extraordinary events like that.

[Doc]

Hi TruthSeeker,

I am fascinated by near death experiences as i have read a few where people see their long deceased pets and that's what i'm interested in.

But to me they are fascinating.

I believe that we feel that we know EXACTLY what the bible writers meant when explaining death,etc, but i feel that maybe we don't and we shouldn't just pooh pooh these accounts which to the experiencers are very real and not at all 'satanic'. How can a 'satanic' NDE make you a better person afterwards, as lots of people have attested to?

I also believe in a kind of purgatory where people that aren't in the first resurrection maybe, go.  But nowhere do people say that they had to stay there forever. Several people said that when they prayed they instantaeously disappeared out of there!!!

But to me the most fascinating instances, is where the person floated above their bed and saw a trainer on the hospital roof, that they couldn't possibly have seen if they hadn't been floating on the ceiling proper!!! And of course the blind NDE's.

I keep a very open mind on all this.
Godbless
Nancy

Exactly, Nancy. I commented in another thread that the scriptural account is but a shadow of the reality pointed to or described by scripture. There are so many things we "think" we know, but we don't, really...

I also agree with IceMan; many aspects of NDE's coincide with Universalism. There are also many relatively common aspects of NDE's (such as something akin to "reincarnation") that are so far out there, that they don't coincide with anything I can personally reconcile with scripture. Then again, many things in scripture are "hidden"-- not easily discerned; and frankly, the "letter" of scripture likely doesn't tell the "whole story".

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Doc... :hithere:

If NDE's are not 'real' experiences in some sense, (that are more than hallucinations) then explain to me how blind people (who've been so from birth) that have NDE's can see during their NDE's and recount detailed, verifiable visual data later that would be impossible for them to know otherwise.

Don't know about the "impossible" thing bro...

These are like UFO reports Doc... you either believe them as actually occuring or you believe them to be contrived...

I don't particularly believe (or absolutely disbelieve) in this "phenomenon", but also admit just like FAITH in GOD, it cannot be proven or disproven...

Just because a blind person notes "visual data", does not mean he "saw" that data, ...someone may have conveyed to this person (before or after), the outlines of the room in which his "vision" took place...  :dontknow:

The testimony can be believed (or disbelieved), as originating from the blind one claiming it, but only [God, and] that ONE really knows for sure...  :laughing7:

peacE...
willieH    :skittles:

[Doc]

willieH: Hi Doc... :hithere:

If NDE's are not 'real' experiences in some sense, (that are more than hallucinations) then explain to me how blind people (who've been so from birth) that have NDE's can see during their NDE's and recount detailed, verifiable visual data later that would be impossible for them to know otherwise.

Don't know about the "impossible" thing bro...

These are like UFO reports Doc... you either believe them as actually occuring or you believe them to be contrived...

I don't particularly believe (or absolutely disbelieve) in this "phenomenon", but also admit just like FAITH in GOD, it cannot be proven or disproven...

Just because a blind person notes "visual data", does not mean he "saw" that data, ...someone may have conveyed to this person (before or after), the outlines of the room in which his "vision" took place...  :dontknow:

The testimony can be believed (or disbelieved), as originating from the blind one claiming it, but only [God, and] that ONE really knows for sure...  :laughing7:

peacE...
willieH    :skittles:

Willie, what these people saw was way more detailed than what you're suggesting. Things like describing medical instruments they'd never seen or even heard described to them...

[WhiteWings]

Willie, what these people saw was way more detailed than what you're suggesting. Things like describing medical instruments they'd never seen or even heard described to them...

Doc,

I've also heard about that. If true that's indeed a strong proof NDEs aren't just illusions/dreams.
But, what Willie perhaps also means, can you believe those stories?

OTOH people in the Bible people have visions; not exactly NDEs but it has a 'supernatural taste' to it like an NDE.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi WW & Doc... :hithere:

Willie, what these people saw was way more detailed than what you're suggesting. Things like describing medical instruments they'd never seen or even heard described to them...

Doc,

I've also heard about that. If true that's indeed a strong proof NDEs aren't just illusions/dreams.
But, what Willie perhaps also means, can you believe those stories?

Thanks WW... that is EXACTLY what I meant...  :thanks:

There are FICTITOUS accounts of many things which are proposed to be true...

My point was... the ones which are REAL and ACTUAL ACCOUNTS and which are CONCOCTED, is only known by GOD and the one or ones giving the account... :yes:

There are accounts of UFO's, Bigfoot, Crop Circles, etc... some of which are ACTUAL, but MOST of which, appear as very convincing, yet are nothing but  creative hoaxes...  :dontknow:

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif)


PeacE...
...willieH   :ty:

[WhiteWings]

Willie agreeing with me....sounds even more unbelieveble than Bigfoot in a UFO  :laughing7:

[Mark Christopher]

what i would find interesting, depend NDEs on social background?

has a buddhist in india, ever had a "christian" hell NDE?

Good question!

a muslim in lets say turkey, has there anyone ever had a NDE based on "christian" believes?

Too close to home. Judaic/Christian/Islamic. As some lump them together.

might christians in NDEs maybe see Jesus, muslims Mohammed, and buddhists Buddha?
or are all NDEs about the world similar, having a "christian" background?

If someone had absolutely no prior Christio influence, someone from a remote village, with no TV, radio, books, magazines, newspapers, then maybe I'd be more inclined to believe their story.