21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
God seems to denote seperation from him, at that, people that tried to follow him
Im intresting to see how universalists see this verse
From "Bible threatenings explained"
Much of what Jesus had to say dealt with the coming fall of Jerusalem and the entire Jewish system in 70 AD and the expansion of the Kingdom to include the Gentiles. Jesus himself shows that the application was confined to those to whom he was speaking.
"Lord" (they say) "we have eaten and drunk in your presence and you have taught in our streets." and "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out."
The words apply entirely to those who had heard him speak in their streets, namely the Jews. The Jew's advantages were about to be taken away and given to the Gentiles. The Gentiles were to enter the kingdom by faith with faithful Abraham while the Jews were thrust out. The weeping and gnashing of teeth represents their rage which was aggravated by their dislike of the Gentiles.
"I never knew you"
I am sure that this word will be spoken to the following believers,
who are saying like this: :
"Lord, Lord, I am prophesying in your name that there will be no ET,
and all men will be saved eventually regardless of their faith."
"Lord, I pray for many people and they are being healed."
without doing the will of the Father.
What is the will of the Father?
If they do not know what it is, then it is apparent they are not doing the will of the Father.
And they will be away from Jesus, according to the Scripture.
I can see how it may only apply to the people that heard him speak...but then what is the "day" he talks about when he says "on that DAY". Hes really not very clear about what day that is, whether its judgement day, the day hes crucified... :dontknow:
and people have diffrent intrepreations of what "the will of the father" is based on what they feel the holy spirit saying to them...and if so what kidnof seperation are we talking about here?
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on January 09, 2009, 08:51:12 AM
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
God seems to denote seperation from him, at that, people that tried to follow him
Im intresting to see how universalists see this verse
To me I am finding just the simple facts stated in scripture, back to the basics so to speak.
It is saying that just saying words will not grant someone entry into the kingdom, meaning, over all in the picture of scripture all will enter the kingdom, but if we think it will be as easy as saying some words we are mistaken.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 09, 2009, 11:47:16 PM
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on January 09, 2009, 08:51:12 AM
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
God seems to denote seperation from him, at that, people that tried to follow him
Im intresting to see how universalists see this verse
To me I am finding just the simple facts stated in scripture, back to the basics so to speak.
It is saying that just saying words will not grant someone entry into the kingdom, meaning, over all in the picture of scripture all will enter the kingdom, but if we think it will be as easy as saying some words we are mistaken.
to me it seems that they have to be like little children , trusting the Lord and willing to learn
those who do not do this are deceived , they have not entered yet , Christs words confirm this
And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you,
Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
to be converted to turn around change ones mind ..
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 09, 2009, 11:47:16 PM
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on January 09, 2009, 08:51:12 AM
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
God seems to denote seperation from him, at that, people that tried to follow him
Im intresting to see how universalists see this verse
To me I am finding just the simple facts stated in scripture, back to the basics so to speak.
It is saying that just saying words will not grant someone entry into the kingdom, meaning, over all in the picture of scripture all will enter the kingdom, but if we think it will be as easy as saying some words we are mistaken.
I always thought the will of the Father was to Give Christ , Tis His Pleasure to do so.
Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's
good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Eph 1:5 Having
predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the
good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:9 Having made
known unto us the mystery of his will, according
to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: seems some pharisess also referred to Christ as Lord and Master ..Teacher perhaps....
A need to be reborn :icon_flower:
There are two types of believers.
Type 1 :
They speak to Jesus, but they do not hear what Jesus says.
They pray to God, they do bible study in His name,
they are doing many things differently from what was taught in traditional churches.
Of course, they do not realize that they do not hear Jesus,
on the contrary they think they hear Jesus very well through Holy Spirit.
But its hallucination.
What they think Holy Spirit is evil(non-God) spirit made by themselves in fact.
That's why Jesus says here that they are evil(non-God)doers.
'On that day' is the time when those 'type 1' believers open their ears to Jesus' saying.
On that day, they will realize that the faith so far was nothing but evildoing.
This is the judgment of one's past(first) faith.
So that day can be the judgment day of the first.
[Hbr 10:9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first,
that he may establish the second.
Type 2 :
Blessed is the man who hears this judgment of Jesus while he is alive.
Because from that day on, he can clearly hear true Jesus and follow Him to enter the Kingdom.
When he enters the Kingdom, he will lead a life of Jesus, leading others to the Kingdom.
And this is the loving neighbors as himself.
He will be the man who is doing the will of the Father.
This is the type 2 believer.
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on January 09, 2009, 08:51:12 AM
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
God seems to denote seperation from him, at that, people that tried to follow him
Im intresting to see how universalists see this verse
That's universally (no pun intended) believed to simply be addressing false prophets and teachers, who exploit the name of Jesus for their own personal gain. They used the name as a word of power, but never had anything resembling an actual relationship with Jesus.
Quote from: firstborn888 on January 09, 2009, 10:55:14 AM
From "Bible threatenings explained"
Much of what Jesus had to say dealt with the coming fall of Jerusalem and the entire Jewish system in 70 AD and the expansion of the Kingdom to include the Gentiles. Jesus himself shows that the application was confined to those to whom he was speaking.
"Lord" (they say) "we have eaten and drunk in your presence and you have taught in our streets." and "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out."
The words apply entirely to those who had heard him speak in their streets, namely the Jews. The Jew's advantages were about to be taken away and given to the Gentiles. The Gentiles were to enter the kingdom by faith with faithful Abraham while the Jews were thrust out. The weeping and gnashing of teeth represents their rage which was aggravated by their dislike of the Gentiles.
:thumbsup: But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Mt. 15:24.
Washing feet and lodging strangers would be evil,
if we do not meet Jesus and enter the Kingdom.
Because evil men cannot do good works, but evil works.
[Jer 13:23]
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots?
then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
[Mat 7:17-18]
17/ Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18/ A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
What what?
1. Natural
We ought to do washing feet and lodging strangers and help people in need.
We, as human being, all have natural and basic emotion of such.
I am doing so also.
However, when we think deep,
members of other religions and atheists even are doing so or aiming at it at least.
So we cannot say those deeds are Jesus specific. Agree?
In this world, there is no clear-cut standard that separates good from evil.
In general, good deeds are
love, joy, peace, donation, forgiveness, fast, prayer, etc.
evil deeds are
extortion, unjust, adultery, murder, fight, selfishness, etc.
confusions are
feticide, glbt, white lie, etc.
This standard, which is fixed, is the law.
And it is the world of natural.
2. Spiritual
But there is another standard, which is truth, that separates good from evil.
That is 'God' Himself or 'mind of God'.
All that are of God are good.
All that are not of God are evil.
The standard is 'mind of God', which is flexible.
And it is the world of 'spiritual'.
Believing in Jesus does not mean that we act good according to the case 1 above,
but is that we are to have the mind of God to see as God sees, to be spiritual so to speak.
So, if we want to say that we are Jesus believers,
then we should at least know that where we are heading for in Jesus.
If 'lodging stranger' is the absolute good,
then how could God condemn Esau
who ate red pottage out of extreme hunger.
How could God not allow food to Jesus for more than 40 days?
[Gen 25:30]
And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage;
for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.
[Heb 12:16]
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau,
who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
All the Scriptures sayings, including washing feet and lodging strangers,
should be read spiritual, not natural.
Do we know the spiritual meanings (God's mind) of those verses?
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on January 09, 2009, 08:51:12 AM
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
God seems to denote seperation from him, at that, people that tried to follow him
I was haunted by these words for many years until I realized 2 things. God deals with us like a father and Jesus was talking to His disciples.
Jesus is condemning a very cocky attitude. He will have not have this kind of bondage keeping a hold of people. Sending a child to his room with a very stern reprimand is a most effective way of getting said child to see the errors of his ways.
Notice it doesn't say that Jesus is inferring that they go away from Him forever.
cp
good points...I think we create confusion many times when we forget that much (if not all) of His earthly ministry was to the Jews...Jesus had us Gentiles in mind, as He spoke of "I have other sheep" that He would bring in, but we weren't really brought into the picture yet...until His crucifixion and resurrection...My :2c:.
Quote from: jabcat on January 12, 2009, 03:14:30 AM
good points...I think we create confusion many times when we forget that much (if not all) of His earthly ministry was to the Jews...Jesus had us Gentiles in mind, as He spoke of "I have other sheep" that He would bring in, but we weren't really brought into the picture yet...until His crucifixion and resurrection...My :2c:.
To go even further I would say Jesus' ministry is to the divine (Kingdom) within us. To me the Jews represent the divine in us, the faltering yet chosen of God in each person. People are not all bad, sinners yes, but not all bad. The Gentiles that are to be brought into the fold seem to me to be that which is naturally 'of God' in man. This individual goodness must be baptized in the divine (in Christ) to be worthy to be really called goodness.
Maybe I'm out to lunch here but thinking......
cp
Quote from: claypot on January 12, 2009, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: jabcat on January 12, 2009, 03:14:30 AM
good points...I think we create confusion many times when we forget that much (if not all) of His earthly ministry was to the Jews...Jesus had us Gentiles in mind, as He spoke of "I have other sheep" that He would bring in, but we weren't really brought into the picture yet...until His crucifixion and resurrection...My :2c:.
To go even further I would say Jesus' ministry is to the divine (Kingdom) within us. To me the Jews represent the divine in us, the faltering yet chosen of God in each person. People are not all bad, sinners yes, but not all bad. The Gentiles that are to be brought into the fold seem to me to be that which is naturally 'of God' in man. This individual goodness must be baptized in the divine (in Christ) to be worthy to be really called goodness.
Maybe I'm out to lunch here but thinking......
cp
Don't second guess yourself out of it my friend. You are right on in my book. Keep seeing things with inward perspectives and you'll do well.
Perhaps another way to look at this is: IIRC, whenever we see the phrase "kingdom of heaven" it means "reign of the heavens". In other words, not everyone who does works in His name will qualify to reign in the kingdom. Many are called, but few are chosen.
That doesn't adequately address the "depart from me" phraseology though. The warning to the Jews spoken to makes the best overall sense.
Quote from: Doc on January 12, 2009, 08:42:57 PM
Perhaps another way to look at this is: IIRC, whenever we see the phrase "kingdom of heaven" it means "reign of the heavens". In other words, not everyone who does works in His name will qualify to reign in the kingdom. Many are called, but few are chosen.
That doesn't adequately address the "depart from me" phraseology though. The warning to the Jews spoken to makes the best overall sense.
:thumbsup:
Nathan, you wrote...
Don't second guess yourself out of it my friend. You are right on in my book. Keep seeing things with inward perspectives and you'll do well.
I am grateful for the encouragment. You have made my day and I will heed your advice. Thanks, Brother.
cp
I dont know...this whole concept of everyone gets to go to heaven eventually seems like just wishful thinking to me, no matter how much I pray for Gods answer on it it just seems like wishful thinking and trying to twist verses to mean somthing they dont seem to mean
i dont know...
Ninja, maybe share some of the verses that seem to you to need twisting...someone here can probably help...many times it's either things have been mistranslated for many years so that's what's ingrained in us, and/or they've been taken out of context for so many years, that that's become what we see as truth...when many times, it's not, when scripture is a) accurately translated, b) rightly divided, and c) Spirit-revealed.
God's blessing, James.
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on January 13, 2009, 01:02:14 AM
I dont know...this whole concept of everyone gets to go to heaven eventually seems like just wishful thinking to me, no matter how much I pray for Gods answer on it it just seems like wishful thinking and trying to twist verses to mean somthing they dont seem to mean
i dont know...
Do keep in mind bud, it's still a lake of fire. Cleansing, yes, but it's still a place that ya don't want to have to go through. Those that reject Christ aren't getting away scot free. It's still a great price to be accounted for . . it's just not an eternal one as we've been duped it to be.
Right...there's just too many things that keep happening AFTER judgment...IMO, much more involved in God's Big Plan than mainstream's die, immediately heaven or hell forever.
Quote from: jabcat on January 13, 2009, 02:20:23 AM
Right...there's just too many things that keep happening AFTER judgment...IMO, much more involved in God's Big Plan than mainstream's die, immediately heaven or hell forever.
Man, that's good, Jab. American Christianity stops way too short IMO too.
cp
Thanks. Love your name :thumbsup:. Cool.
Quote from: claypot on January 13, 2009, 03:34:58 PM
Quote from: jabcat on January 13, 2009, 02:20:23 AM
Right...there's just too many things that keep happening AFTER judgment...IMO, much more involved in God's Big Plan than mainstream's die, immediately heaven or hell forever.
Man, that's good, Jab. American Christianity stops way too short IMO too.
cp
If we are in hell now, we will be in hell forever.
If we are in heaven now, we will be in heaven forever.
Future is 'now', forever is 'now'.
Cure 'now', Heal 'now'!
Quotedont know...this whole concept of everyone gets to go to heaven eventually seems like just wishful thinking to me,
You need a paradigm shift. You see heaven and hell as a destination. In reality it is our walk. The Kingdom of heaven is relationship, whereas hell is blindness and deafness. The ditch, the fire and the worms are all natural places for the blind stumbling along. Is is difficult to believe that He is able to cure the blind, all the blind?
Quote from: Sarah on January 14, 2009, 04:24:37 AM
Quotedont know...this whole concept of everyone gets to go to heaven eventually seems like just wishful thinking to me,
You need a paradigm shift. You see heaven and hell as a destination. In reality it is our walk. The Kingdom of heaven is relationship, whereas hell is blindness and deafness. The ditch, the fire and the worms are all natural places for the blind stumbling along. Is is difficult to believe that He is able to cure the blind, all the blind?
Sarah, what you said speaks to me a very good way, thanks.
cp
Quote from: claypot on January 14, 2009, 04:01:20 PM
Quote from: Sarah on January 14, 2009, 04:24:37 AM
Quotedont know...this whole concept of everyone gets to go to heaven eventually seems like just wishful thinking to me,
You need a paradigm shift. You see heaven and hell as a destination. In reality it is our walk. The Kingdom of heaven is relationship, whereas hell is blindness and deafness. The ditch, the fire and the worms are all natural places for the blind stumbling along. Is is difficult to believe that He is able to cure the blind, all the blind?
Sarah, what you said speaks to me a very good way, thanks.
cp
Me too :thumbsup:.
Yep. I'm realizing that in my own life. I think you're right on, Sarah.
I think that may be part of what God is showing/ teaching me right now, in fact.
Just responding to your original post Ninja. Here are the verses again from the KJV:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Lets look at verse 21. What is it really saying?: If you don't do the will of the father, you aren't getting into heaven. Personally I'm glad on this one. I wouldn't want to get to heaven and find out that I still have to worry about liars, thieves, and murderers roaming about.
So there will be no liars, thieves, and murderers that make it into the kingdom of heaven. But wait you say. What about all the people that are currently liars, thieves, or murderers (doesn't that include just about everyone)? What will happen to them? Well, they will be changed. They will be refined in God's consuming fire (see 1 Cor 3:12-15). When God is done with them, they won't want to lie, steal, or murder anymore. They will want to be with Jesus, and then they will get into the kingdom of heaven by accepting Him as their savior.
Moving on to verse 22. What does it say?: Well, on that day... (what is that day?) It is the day when Christ returns. When Christ returns, many will say "Lord did we not do great stuff in your name?" but alas, they were not really in Christ. They only did vain works of the flesh, not the glorifying works of the spirit that God gives us to do (Eph 2:10). So as we see in verse 23, on that day, many will think they are getting into heaven, but they will be in for a surprise. Instead they go somewhere else - the outer darkness, the lake of fire, into eonian shame.
So to summarize this is what we learn from the above verses:
- only those who do the will of the father will get into heaven
- when Christ returns many will not get into heaven on that day
- that's all, that's it: no eternal damnation, hellfire mentioned at all
Indeed only a few will be saved when Christ returns, but the rest go into the Lake of Fire. No biblical UR believer would deny this.
So perhaps that is a good place to focus your studies: What is the Lake of Fire? How long does it last? What is its purpose? There are many pages of articles that have been written about this from the UR perspective on this site and other sites. Its a good place to start - feel free to start another thread on it if you want.
Cheers,
Legoman
Quote from: jabcat on January 14, 2009, 08:53:21 PM
Quote from: claypot on January 14, 2009, 04:01:20 PM
Quote from: Sarah on January 14, 2009, 04:24:37 AM
Quotedont know...this whole concept of everyone gets to go to heaven eventually seems like just wishful thinking to me,
You need a paradigm shift. You see heaven and hell as a destination. In reality it is our walk. The Kingdom of heaven is relationship, whereas hell is blindness and deafness. The ditch, the fire and the worms are all natural places for the blind stumbling along. Is is difficult to believe that He is able to cure the blind, all the blind?
Sarah, what you said speaks to me a very good way, thanks.
cp
Me too :thumbsup:.
Is not hell the same as the lake of fire in purpose? Is it not used to purge and cleanse? Perhaps I'm mistaken. But I think most here agree that it's temporary. So what's it's purpose? If it "is" to purify, then how would that relate to it being blindness and deafness? I kinda thought the blind and deaf would go through hell which eventually, that process would enable them to eventually see. When I see hell cast into the lake of fire . . .I took that to mean they are one and the same . .in purpose if nothing else. No?
Quote from: Nathan on January 14, 2009, 10:21:50 PM
Quote from: jabcat on January 14, 2009, 08:53:21 PM
Quote from: claypot on January 14, 2009, 04:01:20 PM
Quote from: Sarah on January 14, 2009, 04:24:37 AM
Quotedont know...this whole concept of everyone gets to go to heaven eventually seems like just wishful thinking to me,
You need a paradigm shift. You see heaven and hell as a destination. In reality it is our walk. The Kingdom of heaven is relationship, whereas hell is blindness and deafness. The ditch, the fire and the worms are all natural places for the blind stumbling along. Is is difficult to believe that He is able to cure the blind, all the blind?
Sarah, what you said speaks to me a very good way, thanks.
cp
Me too :thumbsup:.
Is not hell the same as the lake of fire in purpose? Is it not used to purge and cleanse? Perhaps I'm mistaken. But I think most here agree that it's temporary. So what's it's purpose? If it "is" to purify, then how would that relate to it being blindness and deafness? I kinda thought the blind and deaf would go through hell which eventually, that process would enable them to eventually see. When I see hell cast into the lake of fire . . .I took that to mean they are one and the same . .in purpose if nothing else. No?
Depends which "hell" you are talking about. You must have read some of the articles on TM about this, if not I recommend it.
"hell" doesn't even exist in the bible. Its terribly mistranslated from 4 different words:
- sheol (OT)/hades (NT) - these just refer to the state of the dead/being in the grave, and is a place of unconsciousness, also referred to as "sleeping" ie. death is like sleep
- gehenna - Jesus spoke of Gehenna which was the local garbage dump where they burned up all the waste. Jesus used it as a metaphor for judgement (ie. God's fiery trials).
- tartarus - I believe this is only referred to 1 time and is an abyss - I don't know too much about this one reference
Anyway Hell (Hades/Sheol) is thrown into the Lake of Fire in Rev 20:14 when death is abolished - this makes sense cause with death gone, there is no need for the "grave/state of the dead" anymore.
The Lake of fire is not the same thing as any of these "hells".
Legoman
Quote from: Nathan on January 14, 2009, 10:21:50 PM
Quote from: jabcat on January 14, 2009, 08:53:21 PM
Quote from: claypot on January 14, 2009, 04:01:20 PM
Quote from: Sarah on January 14, 2009, 04:24:37 AM
Quotedont know...this whole concept of everyone gets to go to heaven eventually seems like just wishful thinking to me,
You need a paradigm shift. You see heaven and hell as a destination. In reality it is our walk. The Kingdom of heaven is relationship, whereas hell is blindness and deafness. The ditch, the fire and the worms are all natural places for the blind stumbling along. Is is difficult to believe that He is able to cure the blind, all the blind?
Sarah, what you said speaks to me a very good way, thanks.
cp
Me too :thumbsup:.
Is not hell the same as the lake of fire in purpose? Is it not used to purge and cleanse? Perhaps I'm mistaken. But I think most here agree that it's temporary. So what's it's purpose? If it "is" to purify, then how would that relate to it being blindness and deafness? I kinda thought the blind and deaf would go through hell which eventually, that process would enable them to eventually see. When I see hell cast into the lake of fire . . .I took that to mean they are one and the same . .in purpose if nothing else. No?
I believe that if God is the consuming fire and hell and death are also cast into it in the End
will not than God be all in ALL ? gives a new meaning to
the consumation !
Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cr 15:26
The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Cr 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 1Cr 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
:HeartThrob:
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And
the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. !!!! :2c:
Rev 20:14 And
death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. many wonder just what the lake of fire is
to me it is the embodiment of many poeoples tongues and nations
Isaiah 33 The LORD is exalted; for he dwelleth on high: he hath filled Zion with judgment and righteousness.
Isa 33:6 And wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times, [and] strength of salvation: the fear of the LORD [is] his treasure.
Isa 33:7 Behold, their valiant ones shall cry without: the ambassadors of peace shall weep bitterly.
Isa 33:8 The highways lie waste, the wayfaring man ceaseth: he hath broken the covenant, he hath despised the cities, he regardeth no man.
Isa 33:9 The earth mourneth [and] languisheth: Lebanon is ashamed [and] hewn down: Sharon is like a wilderness; and Bashan and Carmel shake off [their fruits].
Isa 33:10
Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself. Isa 33:11
Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, [as] fire, shall devour you. Isa 33:12
And the people shall be [as] the burnings of lime: [as] thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire. Isa 33:13
Hear, ye [that are] far off, what I have done; and, ye [that are] near, acknowledge my might. Isa 33:14
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence [shall be] the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters [shall be] sure.
Quote from: Nathan on January 14, 2009, 10:21:50 PM
Quote from: jabcat on January 14, 2009, 08:53:21 PM
Quote from: claypot on January 14, 2009, 04:01:20 PM
Quote from: Sarah on January 14, 2009, 04:24:37 AM
Quotedont know...this whole concept of everyone gets to go to heaven eventually seems like just wishful thinking to me,
You need a paradigm shift. You see heaven and hell as a destination. In reality it is our walk. The Kingdom of heaven is relationship, whereas hell is blindness and deafness. The ditch, the fire and the worms are all natural places for the blind stumbling along. Is is difficult to believe that He is able to cure the blind, all the blind?
Sarah, what you said speaks to me a very good way, thanks.
cp
Me too :thumbsup:.
Is not hell the same as the lake of fire in purpose? Is it not used to purge and cleanse? Perhaps I'm mistaken. But I think most here agree that it's temporary. So what's it's purpose? If it "is" to purify, then how would that relate to it being blindness and deafness? I kinda thought the blind and deaf would go through hell which eventually, that process would enable them to eventually see. When I see hell cast into the lake of fire . . .I took that to mean they are one and the same . .in purpose if nothing else. No?
:Chinscratch: Well, I certainly don't see it that way. I think that historically, seeing "hell" and the lake of fire as one and the same has been what's gotten us into trouble with our traditional theology of hell. We mix literalistic imagery of Gehenna, Tartarus and Hades with a literalistic interpretation of the lake of fire and come up with the "christian" ET hell. I think that the mere fact that Death and Hell (Hades) are
thrown into the lake of fire makes it clear that they are
not the same... In purpose or otherwise. :2c:
I'm not sure if it's the weather, we've had two 7 inch + snowstorms back to back go through with subzero temps . . .or if it's because I've been putting in so many hours . .but things are foggy today with me for some reason.
I very much agree hell . .as we've been taught it to be, is not really what Scripture portrays it to be. I do believe the lake of fire is God as Scripture states he is consuming fire. But what is it that he's consuming? People? I don't think so, I think his presence consumes carnality . .carnalism. For me, hell is simply the grave . . .and those dead are thrown into the lake with death . . .which for me has to do with separation. All things that are separated are once again brought back into "One".
Maybe I need a nap.
Quote from: Nathan on January 14, 2009, 10:59:38 PM
I'm not sure if it's the weather, we've had two 7 inch + snowstorms back to back go through with subzero temps . . .or if it's because I've been putting in so many hours . .but things are foggy today with me for some reason.
I very much agree hell . .as we've been taught it to be, is not really what Scripture portrays it to be. I do believe the lake of fire is God as Scripture states he is consuming fire. But what is it that he's consuming? People? I don't think so, I think his presence consumes carnality . .carnalism. For me, hell is simply the grave . . .and those dead are thrown into the lake with death . . .which for me has to do with separation. All things that are separated are once again brought back into "One".
Maybe I need a nap.
I think that's a likely scenario on all counts, including the nap... :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: Nathan on January 14, 2009, 10:59:38 PM
I'm not sure if it's the weather, we've had two 7 inch + snowstorms back to back go through with subzero temps . . .or if it's because I've been putting in so many hours . .but things are foggy today with me for some reason.
I very much agree hell . .as we've been taught it to be, is not really what Scripture portrays it to be. I do believe the lake of fire is God as Scripture states he is consuming fire. But what is it that he's consuming? People? I don't think so, I think his presence consumes carnality . .carnalism. For me, hell is simply the grave . . .and those dead are thrown into the lake with death . . .which for me has to do with separation. All things that are separated are once again brought back into "One".
Maybe I need a nap.
Look at 1 Cor 3:12-15 again. I believe the Lake of Fire will consume the same things. Carnality as you said is one way of putting it.
Have a nice nap!
Legoman
QuoteLets look at verse 21. What is it really saying?: If you don't do the will of the father, you aren't getting into heaven.
Yes, it is saying that. But the Kingdom of Heaven has a different connotation to me that to you. It is place where God reigns. It is the city described in Revelations. It is a people on the earth. The lamb is their light, not the governments of the world; sun, moon. This is a city made up of those who have died in Christ and the living by faith. Outside the city are dogs, sorcerers, etc. Thank God the gates are always open.
My hope and belief is that the city is here now and is not future. When I feel alone in my purpose, I like to think there are more for me than against me.
QuoteWhat is the Lake of Fire? How long does it last? What is its purpose?
The Lake of Fire is a place where death is destroyed. The temple, its sacrificial systems, and trying to be holy through obeying a commandment written on a page and not of the heart is death....and God destroyed it and its messengers in the lake of Fire awhile ago. I believe this is testimony to what happens to us when we base our life on the 3 sins; lust of the eye, lust of the flesh, and pride of life. On that day when we see Him, we see the depth of our wasteful lives. Their will be great loss. Thank god that streams flow out of the city and trees with leaves for healing the nations. They come out of the city for our healing.
John the Baptist baptized with water, but Jesus baptized with fire. This is the power of God destroying the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life in my life. This power grants relationship. I have access to the city now and do not have to suffer great loss in the lake of fire, but can have life now.
QuoteJohn the Baptist baptized with water, but Jesus baptized with fire. This is the power of God destroying the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life in my life. This power grants relationship. I have access to the city now and do not have to suffer great loss in the lake of fire, but can have life now.
Hi Sis Sarah ,
This is how I am able to see it too now :thumbsup:
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: 70sevens on January 09, 2009, 12:03:51 PM
"I never knew you"
I am sure that this word will be spoken to the following believers,
who are saying like this: :
"Lord, Lord, I am prophesying in your name that there will be no ET,
and all men will be saved eventually regardless of their faith."
"Lord, I pray for many people and they are being healed."
without doing the will of the Father.
What is the will of the Father?
If they do not know what it is, then it is apparent they are not doing the will of the Father.
And they will be away from Jesus, according to the Scripture.
are you saying we're not Christians?
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 20, 2009, 12:03:48 AM
Andromeda, why take it as if he is pointing a finger or including you? He did present whats in scripture. Jesus said they would be prophesying in His name calling Him "Lord Lord" I dont know an athiest who does that do you? :grin:
No, I don't. And sorry about taking it personally, I have Asperger's, so it's a problem of mine.
I think many of us have been reborn all right . . .the problem is, we think we're reborn in the spirit when we're actually reborn in the mind . .which is to say our parents, which is those who led us to this rebirth, our parents were simply doing what they were created to do . .. reproduce after their own kind. It's a hereditary thing we're born into. My parents were born into a religious mindset, and they reproduced that which they were themselves. Religion begats religious. Religious then begats more religious who are just as bound to the religion as their parents. But if you take that lineage all the way back, the father of us all . . .the father of all religious . . .is the mind of "man".
Someone, somewhere WAY back at the beginning, where there were two specific trees . .one of freedom, the other of knowledge of boundaries . . .religion birthed. It is the result of choosing the wrong tree. Religion became the identity of man . .the "sweat of your face" which is a sign of labor. Religion is simply gaining righteousness and acceptance through a works-based mind.
And that's who Jesus was addressing here. When he stated he never knew them, their knee-jerk reaction was to fall back on their works . the things they "did". They felt that their actions would speak of their status. It's almost as if they believed they "deserved" to be with the 'in' crowd of Christ due to all the activities they'd been involved with. But only the sword of of the Spirit has the ability to cut through all of that junk and get to the core of the matter.
Yes, they did a lot of works . .but they had no intimacy. And "that's" what "I never knew you" was all about . . .intimacy. We have it in our heads that if we can cast out a demon or get someone to speak in tongues we, ourselves are now approved and accepted . . .when one has nothing to do with the other. The truth be told, the gifts of the spirit are much like a loaded gun . . .just because you can shoot it, doesn't mean your a marksman.
So many people have used the gifts of the spirit and have been more destructive with them then they have edifying. For me, that's all that this is saying. Your identity should never be in the gifts manifesting in you. Your identity should be in the one your most intimate with.
I wonder what the "intimacy" means.
Jesus is saying, "Do the will of my Father to enter into the kingdom of heaven."
Are "intimacy" and "the will of the Father" equivalent in meaning?
[Mt 7:21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Quote from: jabcat on January 13, 2009, 02:20:23 AM
Right...there's just too many things that keep happening AFTER judgment...IMO, much more involved in God's Big Plan than mainstream's die, immediately heaven or hell forever.
this comes to my mind everyday, which is one of the reasons i havent passed ofer UR yet. because whehter ET is true or not(which I lean towards not) I think things arent as cut and dry as the church makes them out to be
Quote from: Nathan on January 20, 2009, 04:22:21 PM
I think many of us have been reborn all right . . .the problem is, we think we're reborn in the spirit when we're actually reborn in the mind . .which is to say our parents, which is those who led us to this rebirth, our parents were simply doing what they were created to do . .. reproduce after their own kind. It's a hereditary thing we're born into. My parents were born into a religious mindset, and they reproduced that which they were themselves. Religion begats religious. Religious then begats more religious who are just as bound to the religion as their parents. But if you take that lineage all the way back, the father of us all . . .the father of all religious . . .is the mind of "man".
Someone, somewhere WAY back at the beginning, where there were two specific trees . .one of freedom, the other of knowledge of boundaries . . .religion birthed. It is the result of choosing the wrong tree. Religion became the identity of man . .the "sweat of your face" which is a sign of labor. Religion is simply gaining righteousness and acceptance through a works-based mind.
And that's who Jesus was addressing here. When he stated he never knew them, their knee-jerk reaction was to fall back on their works . the things they "did". They felt that their actions would speak of their status. It's almost as if they believed they "deserved" to be with the 'in' crowd of Christ due to all the activities they'd been involved with. But only the sword of of the Spirit has the ability to cut through all of that junk and get to the core of the matter.
Yes, they did a lot of works . .but they had no intimacy. And "that's" what "I never knew you" was all about . . .intimacy. We have it in our heads that if we can cast out a demon or get someone to speak in tongues we, ourselves are now approved and accepted . . .when one has nothing to do with the other. The truth be told, the gifts of the spirit are much like a loaded gun . . .just because you can shoot it, doesn't mean your a marksman.
So many people have used the gifts of the spirit and have been more destructive with them then they have edifying. For me, that's all that this is saying. Your identity should never be in the gifts manifesting in you. Your identity should be in the one your most intimate with.
This was awesome, Nathan,
This is strange that you wrote this. Just this morning I read this, by A. P.Adams:
Natural means pertaining to this fallen state, earthly, fleshly, corrupt. Spiritual, being the opposite of natural means, pertaining to the restored (or resurrection) state, finished, perfect. Both words refer to human beings; they are never applied to spirit beings, to God, or angels, or demons. Now let us look at the Bible and we shall find these statements confirmed. On the word natural see Jas. III. 15 and Jude 19. In both of these passages the words rendered "sensual" are the same in the original as the word rendered "natural" in 1 Cor. XV. 46. The context clearly shows that natural pertains to the fallen man as "earthly, sensual, devilish." The spiritual being the opposite of the natural and coming after it according to God's order, may now be readily identified; the natural. as we have seen, refers to the fallen, corruptible condition; the spiritual then must refer to the restored, incorruptible state; or in other words the natural refers to the process of creation, the spiritual to the finished result. (Editor's Note: this finished result is the manifested purpose of God thru His Christ. For while Christ was on the cross God was in His Christ insuring the reconciliation of all mankind. It was purposed prior to the foundation of time and I dare say that nothing was going to, or would ever hinder God and the reconciliation of all. End of Note).
...
We have seen that "the natural man" is man in the rough, the mere animal man, who has received no spiritual development whatever. The terms natural and spiritual are mutually exclusive; one cannot be natural and spiritual at the same time. But one may be spiritual and carnal at the same time. Many Christians have some spiritual development, and yet the carnal, the fleshly, still predominates; they are, as Paul says, "babes in Christ;" not mature and advanced, but mere infants. We know that after the spiritual begins to be developed we are still in the flesh, and more or less fleshly. Says Paul, "The life that I now live in the flesh., (still in the flesh, but living a higher life), I live by the faith of the Son of God." Again we read, "The flesh lusteth against the spirit; and the spirit against the flesh, and these are contrary, the one to the other." If in this conflict between the flesh and the spirit the flesh predominates, we are babes in Christ and carnal. If the spirit is paramount then we may be called spiritual, as in 1 Cor. II. 15 and Gal. VI. I.
Now read this third chapter of first Corinthians with this explanation in mind, and the carnal Christian will at once be apparent-- a perfect type of many a Christian in these days. The sectarian spirit is perhaps the most hateful manifestation of this carnality. "I am of Paul, I am of Apollos." So in these days we hear, "I am a Methodist to the back bone." "I am a Baptist dyed in the wool." "I am a Congregationalist true blue," and thus these infantile disciples go on in their clannish professions, little thinking that thus they are demonstrating their own carnality and spiritual babyhood. O Lord, help us to "crucify the flesh with its affections and lust" and "press on unto full growth." Heb. VI. 1, N. V., margin; read also the last four verses of the preceding chapter from the New Version.
Not sure what the New Version is. Adams lived in the late 1800's-early 1900's.
Quote from: ScarletWren on January 21, 2009, 01:30:53 AM
Quote from: Nathan on January 20, 2009, 04:22:21 PM
I think many of us have been reborn all right . . .the problem is, we think we're reborn in the spirit when we're actually reborn in the mind . .which is to say our parents, which is those who led us to this rebirth, our parents were simply doing what they were created to do . .. reproduce after their own kind. It's a hereditary thing we're born into. My parents were born into a religious mindset, and they reproduced that which they were themselves. Religion begats religious. Religious then begats more religious who are just as bound to the religion as their parents. But if you take that lineage all the way back, the father of us all . . .the father of all religious . . .is the mind of "man".
Someone, somewhere WAY back at the beginning, where there were two specific trees . .one of freedom, the other of knowledge of boundaries . . .religion birthed. It is the result of choosing the wrong tree. Religion became the identity of man . .the "sweat of your face" which is a sign of labor. Religion is simply gaining righteousness and acceptance through a works-based mind.
And that's who Jesus was addressing here. When he stated he never knew them, their knee-jerk reaction was to fall back on their works . the things they "did". They felt that their actions would speak of their status. It's almost as if they believed they "deserved" to be with the 'in' crowd of Christ due to all the activities they'd been involved with. But only the sword of of the Spirit has the ability to cut through all of that junk and get to the core of the matter.
Yes, they did a lot of works . .but they had no intimacy. And "that's" what "I never knew you" was all about . . .intimacy. We have it in our heads that if we can cast out a demon or get someone to speak in tongues we, ourselves are now approved and accepted . . .when one has nothing to do with the other. The truth be told, the gifts of the spirit are much like a loaded gun . . .just because you can shoot it, doesn't mean your a marksman.
So many people have used the gifts of the spirit and have been more destructive with them then they have edifying. For me, that's all that this is saying. Your identity should never be in the gifts manifesting in you. Your identity should be in the one your most intimate with.
This was awesome, Nathan,
This is strange that you wrote this. Just this morning I read this, by A. P.Adams:
Natural means pertaining to this fallen state, earthly, fleshly, corrupt. Spiritual, being the opposite of natural means, pertaining to the restored (or resurrection) state, finished, perfect. Both words refer to human beings; they are never applied to spirit beings, to God, or angels, or demons. Now let us look at the Bible and we shall find these statements confirmed. On the word natural see Jas. III. 15 and Jude 19. In both of these passages the words rendered "sensual" are the same in the original as the word rendered "natural" in 1 Cor. XV. 46. The context clearly shows that natural pertains to the fallen man as "earthly, sensual, devilish." The spiritual being the opposite of the natural and coming after it according to God's order, may now be readily identified; the natural. as we have seen, refers to the fallen, corruptible condition; the spiritual then must refer to the restored, incorruptible state; or in other words the natural refers to the process of creation, the spiritual to the finished result. (Editor's Note: this finished result is the manifested purpose of God thru His Christ. For while Christ was on the cross God was in His Christ insuring the reconciliation of all mankind. It was purposed prior to the foundation of time and I dare say that nothing was going to, or would ever hinder God and the reconciliation of all. End of Note).
...
We have seen that "the natural man" is man in the rough, the mere animal man, who has received no spiritual development whatever. The terms natural and spiritual are mutually exclusive; one cannot be natural and spiritual at the same time. But one may be spiritual and carnal at the same time. Many Christians have some spiritual development, and yet the carnal, the fleshly, still predominates; they are, as Paul says, "babes in Christ;" not mature and advanced, but mere infants. We know that after the spiritual begins to be developed we are still in the flesh, and more or less fleshly. Says Paul, "The life that I now live in the flesh., (still in the flesh, but living a higher life), I live by the faith of the Son of God." Again we read, "The flesh lusteth against the spirit; and the spirit against the flesh, and these are contrary, the one to the other." If in this conflict between the flesh and the spirit the flesh predominates, we are babes in Christ and carnal. If the spirit is paramount then we may be called spiritual, as in 1 Cor. II. 15 and Gal. VI. I.
Now read this third chapter of first Corinthians with this explanation in mind, and the carnal Christian will at once be apparent-- a perfect type of many a Christian in these days. The sectarian spirit is perhaps the most hateful manifestation of this carnality. "I am of Paul, I am of Apollos." So in these days we hear, "I am a Methodist to the back bone." "I am a Baptist dyed in the wool." "I am a Congregationalist true blue," and thus these infantile disciples go on in their clannish professions, little thinking that thus they are demonstrating their own carnality and spiritual babyhood. O Lord, help us to "crucify the flesh with its affections and lust" and "press on unto full growth." Heb. VI. 1, N. V., margin; read also the last four verses of the preceding chapter from the New Version.
Not sure what the New Version is. Adams lived in the late 1800's-early 1900's.
SW, You and Nathan have again spoken to my very essence and I have to thank you for doing so. I'm going to re-read both your posts now. Matter of fact, I may print them off and carry them with me today. Thanks again.
cp
What is the will of the Father?
Mathew 7:
"12`All things, therefore, whatever ye may will that men may be doing to you, so also do to them, for this is the law and the prophets. "
Later He ties those who are lawless to those who do not know him.
23and then I will acknowledge to them, that -- I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness.
Therefore the will of the Father is to know Him, and whoever knows Him fulfills His law, treating his neighbor as himself.
And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God. rom12.2
I think this ties in nicely.
cp
Quote from: Sarah on January 21, 2009, 03:31:24 PM
What is the will of the Father?
1 Tim 2:
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who
will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Belief in ET would make God out to be confused. Its God's will that all be saved, yet it is God's will that some not be saved. Hmm...
Legoman
Quote from: Nathan on January 20, 2009, 04:22:21 PM
Yes, they did a lot of works . .but they had no intimacy. And "that's" what "I never knew you" was all about . . .intimacy. We have it in our heads that if we can cast out a demon or get someone to speak in tongues we, ourselves are now approved and accepted . . .when one has nothing to do with the other. The truth be told, the gifts of the spirit are much like a loaded gun . . .just because you can shoot it, doesn't mean your a marksman.
So many people have used the gifts of the spirit and have been more destructive with them then they have edifying. For me, that's all that this is saying. Your identity should never be in the gifts manifesting in you. Your identity should be in the one your most intimate with.
:cloud9: :thumbsup: The gifts of the Spirit are as the fruit that Eve desired, if the motive of the heart is wrong. Eve desired the fruit because it looked "pleasant".
They don't realize that the anointing that they are experiencing in this realm is the anointing for burial (of the old man) and so think they have "arrived" and don't continue to press in to decrease so that HE can increase.
That's the thing about anything God gives through His Spirit; because the wheat and the tares are raised up together, the motive of the heart is readily discerned (ours is NEVER pure, LOL), and unless put on the altar immediately to be burned with fire to purify the motive of the heart, it produces the fruit that DOESN'T last, ie. I never knew you. Blessings.....
Well said Cardinal.
I still have things in me that were instilled way back in my early years of churchhood. If someone were to ask me to point out what they are . .I wouldn't be able to. They don't come up until I come across Scripture or a personal revelation that clashes with them. If one thinks that just because one changed direction in one area of doctrine that "that" is all that was out of alignment, one is in for a surprise.
If the foundation is off, the entire structure is off. It's only a matter of time before we learn there are more things within us that need a reforming as well. What it's done is, it's caused me to stop being so closed-minded about spiritual matters. Spiritual truth is not going to change just because I choose not to beleive it. I'm only stunting my own growth when I reject a new thing.
Of course there is also a balance to everything as well. The enemy is always on the move, looking for any crack to pry it's slimy presence into. And if we become "to" open to every "thing", that can be just as detrimental as rejecting everything. Always need the balance.
Quote from: Nathan on January 21, 2009, 05:36:29 PM
If one thinks that just because one changed direction in one area of doctrine that "that" is all that was out of alignment, one is in for a surprise.
If the foundation is off, the entire structure is off. It's only a matter of time before we learn there are more things within us that need a reforming as well. What it's done is, it's caused me to stop being so closed-minded about spiritual matters. Spiritual truth is not going to change just because I choose not to believe it. I'm only stunting my own growth when I reject a new thing.
:cloud9: Amen to that. God told a friend of mine that everything she had ever learned about Him through her carnal mind (as opposed to Spirit revealed) was a lie. That does tend to narrow it down, doesn't it? :laughing7:
I asked Him one time why He couldn't just "flip a switch" and us have have all truth at once through His Spirit, instead of dragging it out on and on and on, LOL.......
He said if He did, we would die instantly from the shock. :mshock: Just some things to ponder with your morning coffee, LOL......Blessings.....
:cloud9: All kidding around aside, I had a dream when I was around 8-10 that was so vivid, it stayed with me into adulthood. I never knew why until I started walking with the Lord 20 years later. In the dream I was in the middle of a massive earthquake, and the carnage was swaying all around me, huge fissures in the earth gaping open, ect.
Where was I? Hanging on for dear life, to the only inexplicably stationary, unmoving object in the scene...... a LIGHT pole. Every time He comes with revelation, it causes another earthquake in our "earth", and EVERYTHING that can be shaken in heaven and in earth, is going to be shaken. Blessings....
Claypot,
here is the link to the whole article that Adams wrote on natural, carnal and spiritual:
http://home.att.net/~spiritword/Adams/spirit_3.htm
If you would be interested in reading other papers he's written, this is the link to those:
http://home.att.net/~spiritword/Adams/adam_1.htm
In some of his articles he references papers that aren't available at this time. Too bad. He had some great insights which I'm sure made him very unpopular with the orthodox church of his time.
Quote from: ScarletWren on January 21, 2009, 07:02:05 PM
Claypot,
here is the link to the whole article that Adams wrote on natural, carnal and spiritual:
http://home.att.net/~spiritword/Adams/spirit_3.htm
If you would be interested in reading other papers he's written, this is the link to those:
http://home.att.net/~spiritword/Adams/adam_1.htm
In some of his articles he references papers that aren't available at this time. Too bad. He had some great insights which I'm sure made him very unpopular with the orthodox church of his time.
SW, Now that's the spirit moving. I have been reading all you all are writing and feel just like I am sitting next to the Maker with Him having His arm around me and explaining things to me. Then I'm thinking that I should say something as it seems kind of rude of me to take only and not at least try to give a bit and then I see the last post is a very thoughtful gift from you to me.Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
My ears especially perk up when I hear talk about seeing things more and more from the spiritual side verses the physical or natural. I can't say enough how I believe that Jesus' huge purpose and goal is to get us from the natural to the spiritual. Where I go you cannot come yet He said. That is true of so many of us in so many ways if viewed as Jesus trying to take us from the carnal to the spiritual way of thinking, which is seeing. Jesus was always focusing on making the blind see.
God's home turf is the spiritual. It's where He really lives and moves and has His being. The physical is God's run down house that He is fixing up, adding a spirtual touch here and there to make it 'comfortable' for Him to at least reside in a bit until the whole enchilada is spiritual.
Jesus' words are spiritual He said. Can it be any clearer?
The presence Jesus said would come after Him to guide us is spiritual.
cp
CP,
No thanks necessary. I just hope you enjoy Adams' writing as much as I do. I rarely hear anyone mention him so it would be great to hear someone else's opinion of what he has to say.
:cloud9: I like A.P. Adams, but I confess I haven't read any of it, except the odd post on the board over the years. Blessings...