Jesus said "fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna". My thought on this is that its referring to physical death only. Thats what death is. The destruction of body and soul. The body goes back to dust. The soul, which is the senses and feelings for the body, ceases to exist with no living body. And the spirit of the person goes into the "unseen" back to God who gave it, without consciousness or awareness. Sort of like being asleep I would think. The person will not exist again until they are resurrected by God. At which time, God will bring the person's body up again, restore the spirit, bringing life again which restores the soul.
I did a study on the words resurrection, rouse, vivify, soul, and spirit, from the CLT and it led to me having this view on death. My point is, so many people think that Jesus is referring to unending punishment in the next life here when it says "destroy body and SOUL" and it doesn't. The soul is destroyed whenever the body is destroyed. Again its just physical death is all.
I agree, except pherhaps we differ on the spirit aspect. I see that Jesus makes no mention of the spirit of man in this passage, so more evidence that ghenna is a place of destruction, that destroys body and soul.
Whereas the lake of fire seems to be about cleansing. Unless Jesus is refering about soul being cleansed/destroyed in the lake of fire, but the problem with this is that it does not talk or mentions about the spirit of man that is withinhim, that also needs to be cleansed and in my personal view, I think that it is the spirit within man that needs to be cleansed in the lake of holy fire, whereas the body and soul are being cleansed now in the believers through sanctification, while Gods fire purifies the belivers spirit.
So I perceive that Jesus is comparing the day of judgment to ghenna, that we are to fear God because he is able to destroy our bodies on the day of judgment, just as he destroyed the bodies of those during the time of Noah.
EBREccl 12
7 And the dust return to the earth, as it was,––and, the spirit, return unto God, who gave it.
2 Kings 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
There you go--body and soul to heaven.
Proverbs 10:25
As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation.
The whirlwind scatters the dust of the wicked but is a foundation to the righteous.
Remember during threshing the wind scatters the chaff but the grain falls in place. That's why they throw the grain up into the air, so the chaff will blow away.
Isaiah 40:24
Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.
Hosea 8:7
For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk; the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up.
Nothing shall be left of the wicked, clouds without water.
Nahum 1:3
The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.
Quote from: fullarmor2 on April 22, 2011, 04:29:07 AM
Jesus said "fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna". My thought on this is that its referring to physical death only. Thats what death is. The destruction of body and soul.
If you look at the whole verse, I think you will notice that what you wrote cannot be right, as Jesus speaks of the destruction of the body and the destruction of the soul as separate and distinct: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:"
This implies that men can kill the body, but not the soul. Something remains and survives death; the Greek word is
psuche ψυχή. It means heart, mind, life, soul.
It is certain that God's memory of his saints would not pass away upon their death.
Quote from: fullarmor2 on April 22, 2011, 04:29:07 AM
The body goes back to dust. The soul, which is the senses and feelings for the body, ceases to exist with no living body. And the spirit of the person goes into the "unseen" back to God who gave it, without consciousness or awareness. Sort of like being asleep I would think. The person will not exist again until they are resurrected by God. At which time, God will bring the person's body up again, restore the spirit, bringing life again which restores the soul.
The soul must be the personality and character. In the context, Jesus was telling his disciples not to be afraid of men, when witnessing to Christ and the gospel. The previous verse says, "What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops." Housetops were evidently a way that news or information was spread quickly throughout the city, in the days before newspapers, radios, TV, the Internet etc. In a following verse he said, "whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."
Quote from: fullarmor2 on April 22, 2011, 04:29:07 AM
I did a study on the words resurrection, rouse, vivify, soul, and spirit, from the CLT and it led to me having this view on death. My point is, so many people think that Jesus is referring to unending punishment in the next life here when it says "destroy body and SOUL" and it doesn't. The soul is destroyed whenever the body is destroyed. Again its just physical death is all.
When he mentioned
Gehenna, Jesus referred to the valley of Hinnom, which is a short valley, outside the city of Jerusalem, on the south west, and southern sides of the city.
Jesus contrasts being cast into
Gehenna with being safe within the holy city, which represents the kingdom of God.
Jesus called Jerusalem "the city of the great King," and he is the king, born to inherit the throne of David. In Isaiah's prophecy, Jerusalem was to be raised up, and established in the top of the mountains, and this is fulfilled, in the New Testament, where Jerusalem is in heaven. It was raised up when Jesus ascended to heaven, Acts 1:9.
The "city of the great King" is the heavenly Jerusalem, the holy city, the camp of the saints, not the earthly city, which like Hagar, was cast out of Abraham's house. (Galatians 4:25-30)
The saints are those in the heavenly Jerusalem. Jesus said, "Salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22] The saints are identified as "Jews" and "the circumcision" in a spiritual sense.[Philippians 3:3] Paul explained that the real Jew is one who is a "Jew inwardly;" his "circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." [Romans 2:29]
The prophets spoke of Jerusalem as being the city of the saints; Isaiah said, "We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks" [Isaiah 26:1] "thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise." [Isaiah 60:18]
So Jerusalem represents salvation, and
Gehenna is a metaphor representing the place or the judgment of those accounted unfit for the kingdom, as the foolish virgins in the parable of the 10 virgins, [Matthew 25:1-13] and like the man who was not wearing a wedding garment, in Matthew 22:11-13.
Doug
Gehenna and the land promise (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/VH/VH-index.php)
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 02:20:33 PM
2 Kings 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
There you go--body and soul to heaven.
Proverbs 10:25
As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation.
The whirlwind scatters the dust of the wicked but is a foundation to the righteous.
Remember during threshing the wind scatters the chaff but the grain falls in place. That's why they throw the grain up into the air, so the chaff will blow away.
Isaiah 40:24
Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.
Hosea 8:7
For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk; the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up.
Nothing shall be left of the wicked, clouds without water.
Nahum 1:3
The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.
Didn't Paul say that our bodies cannot go to Heaven? So Elijah would have had to of been changed, which would be destruction of his temporary body/soul so he could have the right type of body? Anyway, I don't know about Elijah's experience. Scripture doesn't say much about it. I wouldn't base any doctrine on it. For all we know he could have only been caught up for a visit, and then had to come back and die. Like Paul.
Quote from: fullarmorDidn't Paul say that our bodies cannot go to Heaven?
Paul said this:
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
--2 Cor 12
In his case, he did return because he was meant to return. I suspect the reason he didn't know if he was in or out of the body is because he still had the sensation of being in the body.
You guys are the only Christians I have ever met who believe we do not go directly to heaven when we die. [Not that I've met that many Christians.] We don't have to carry this body of flesh with us to do it. God has prepared a tabernacle for us in heaven that is eternal.
Quote from: Doug on April 22, 2011, 03:36:06 PM
If you look at the whole verse, I think you will notice that what you wrote cannot be right, as Jesus speaks of the destruction of the body and the destruction of the soul as separate and distinct: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:"
This implies that men can kill the body, but not the soul. Something remains and survives death; the Greek word is psuche ψυχή. It means heart, mind, life, soul.
It is certain that God's memory of his saints would not pass away upon their death.
That is a good point. I thought all that remains after death is the spirit until God rouses and vivifies.
PS That verb Paul uses when he says he was "caught up" to the third heaven is the 'rapture' word--harpazo.
G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 03:59:32 PM
Quote from: fullarmorDidn't Paul say that our bodies cannot go to Heaven?
Paul said this:
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
--2 Cor 12
In his case, he did return because he was meant to return. I suspect the reason he didn't know if he was in or out of the body is because he still had the sensation of being in the body.
You guys are the only Christians I have ever met who believe we do not go directly to heaven when we die. [Not that I've met that many Christians.] We don't have to carry this body of flesh with us to do it. God has prepared a tabernacle for us in heaven that is eternal.
I was pointing out that Paul said "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom", "this mortal must put on immortality". So if Elijah went to Heaven and stayed then he needed to be changed. But Jesus was the first to be changed like that so I don't know about Elijah's experience. Paul said Jesus alone has immortality. Everyone else is awaiting resurrection, rousal, and vivification according to the flavor of interpretation that I am studying these days. lol
What does it matter whether we go immediately to heaven or not at death? If soul sleep is correct it will still feel immediate no matter how long you were asleep you know? Also wouldn't it be nice to experience Heaven for the first time together with your loved ones? As opposed to them already being there before you? Anyway, I did start leaning towards the soul sleep position shortly after coming to believe UR a few years ago. There are some good scholarly people who teach it. And I didn't mind giving up my earlier position of "to be absent is to be present with the Lord" because I learned that in turn or burn theology which seems to be wrong about everything else. So its probably wrong about this topic as well I bet.
Quote from: fullarmor2 on April 22, 2011, 04:10:49 PM
Quote from: Doug on April 22, 2011, 03:36:06 PM
If you look at the whole verse, I think you will notice that what you wrote cannot be right, as Jesus speaks of the destruction of the body and the destruction of the soul as separate and distinct: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:"
This implies that men can kill the body, but not the soul. Something remains and survives death; the Greek word is psuche ψυχή. It means heart, mind, life, soul.
It is certain that God's memory of his saints would not pass away upon their death.
That is a good point. I thought all that remains after death is the spirit until God rouses and vivifies.
Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Gehenna and the land promise (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/VH/VH-index.php)
Quote from: Doug on April 22, 2011, 04:58:05 PM
Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Great verse. Those who die are indeed set free from the futility of this life to rest in peace in the grave until resurrection. This could be referring to people who die and get resurrected right away without having to sleep for a long time. A beautiful scene either way!
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 03:59:32 PM
Quote from: fullarmorDidn't Paul say that our bodies cannot go to Heaven?
Paul said this:
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
--2 Cor 12
In his case, he did return because he was meant to return. I suspect the reason he didn't know if he was in or out of the body is because he still had the sensation of being in the body.
You guys are the only Christians I have ever met who believe we do not go directly to heaven when we die. [Not that I've met that many Christians.] We don't have to carry this body of flesh with us to do it. God has prepared a tabernacle for us in heaven that is eternal.
I may not be understanding what you are saying.
Is this not a true statement by Jesus?
Joh 3:13 and
no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven.
Also does one believe that this was a literal experience? Paul specificly says "..whether in the body
I have not known, whether out of the body
I have not known,..."It seems to be that it was a spirit revelation, Paul was aloud to see.
2Co 12:2 I have known a man in Christ, fourteen years ago--whether in the body I have not known, whether out of the body I have not known, God hath known--such an one being caught away unto the third heaven;
Where in the Bible does it say that when we die we go to heaven?
And """"""no man"""""""" hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?
Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
He that descended is HE is ascended so all things Be fulfilled
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
:icon_flower:
seek the understanding of the serpent--- maybe putting this into the context of what the lord is saying :icon_flower:
TRUTH is revealed within , NOT SORT by LOOKING OUT
The "simples." I try I really pray for understanding but I continue to remain befuddled when you post the "simples." I am not trying to be a smart aleck, I just dont get your teachings a good part of the time.
Like this "....seek the understanding of the serpent..." :sigh:
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 22, 2011, 05:27:53 PM
The "simples." I try I really pray for understanding but I continue to remain befuddled when you post the "simples." I am not trying to be a smart aleck, I just dont get your teachings a good part of the time.
Like this "....seek the understanding of the serpent..." :sigh:
:icon_flower:
I mean NO offence - WE have two ways of approaching scripture-- seeing and Understanding ONLY the literal OR\with seeing the figurative\parable of what is said--- and one can not teach that-- as ITS only revealed within---THis for me is exactly what lord is saying to the Nicademous-----
HES not confusing Nicademous at all- but Nic is is still seeing only the DUSTY level- the confusion as always layin that eartly wisdom KNOWN AS THE cARNAL MIND WHICHto remains in the DUST
Taffy,
Please share your spiritual understanding of what the serpent of Moses represents.
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 22, 2011, 05:27:53 PM
The "simples." I try I really pray for understanding but I continue to remain befuddled when you post the "simples." I am not trying to be a smart aleck, I just dont get your teachings a good part of the time.
Like this "....seek the understanding of the serpent..." :sigh:
The serpent is the Carnal mind- and this for you is a Stumbling Block--- which was Raised upon a POLE in the WILDENESS BY MOSES--- the SERPENT was BRASS meaning Judgment , the same brass of the ALTER which ANimal[ christ] were BURNED for forgiveness of sin--- The serpent of BRASS on the pole means the SERPENT [ CARNAL MIND ] has been Judged -
who ELSE was RAISED upon a POLE made of wood WHO TOO WAS judged? Yes The LORD on the CROSS who DIED for the very same Carnal Mind wich was Birthed in the GARDEN--- our carnal mind through FAITH are baptised into HIS death , =the perishing of the carnal mind , being RAISED with HIM= moving from DEATH to LIFE which is the symbolism shown in this scripture---MAN entered and descended in the very LOWER depths of the EARTH= HELL= DEATH-- where The LORD joined USin OUR DEATH by which we will be raised[ ascend ] WITH him---
RIGHT now we are In the heanenlies--- sitting with HIM---- why because the OLD MAN is is dead.. ITS MAN who can not enter the heavens--- not the spiritual man----
Blessings :icon_flower:
now ask your self why can we WALK on SERPENTS--- are they Literal like many believe? why didnt the VIPER HURT paul--- alas through the CROSS the Carnal mind can no longer RULE us as HE is the POWER which OVERCOMES as we YEILD[ press into him daily]
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 22, 2011, 05:40:18 PM
Taffy,
Please share your spiritual understanding of what the serpent of Moses represents.
:icon_flower:
Hi Beloved Servant
Therefore the people came to Moses, and said,
We have sinned, for we have
spoken against the LORD, and
against thee; pray unto the LORD, that
he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
They """SPOKE" AGAINST HIM, would that not mean STOOD in Opposition or were aADVERSE in their MIND to HIM] NOW being compared with the the SERPENTS--- why serpents--- why the serpent is in every MAN, that carnal BEAST known as DEATH- the liar -- if you spoke against TRUTH who IS THE LORD--- would you not be a FALSE witness?
This symbolism shows US again the CROSS---shown but hidden MANY times in Genesis - so we see MEN wherethey looked= to see means to understand they werent KILLED-they lived- neither the SERPENTS who were in the DESERT could HURT THEM---
Taffy,
that reminds me of the Scriptures that tell us of the "renewing of our minds" and "putting on the Mind of Christ."
Is this how we are set free?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 22, 2011, 06:06:03 PM
Taffy,
that reminds me of the Scriptures that tell us of the "renewing of our minds" and "putting on the Mind of Christ."
Is this how we are set free?
Its the Carnal MIND which is In PRISON , in Bondage, In DEATH, the Enemy, etc- we now realise we are the WORKS of HIS handS within ,renewing our minds daily , as HE cast off more scales ,But its MORE then This, HIS name is HIS Nature as we press in the more we grow after him--laying down the flesh is a PAINFUL experience-- what we come to discuss isunderstood by our walk with HIM- not the other way about--- :icon_flower:
we ARE free FROM DEATH and tat which caused it
I was given to smile one day when I read of a young boy that after he understood that Jesus lives within him and stands at the door and knocks exclaimed:
Oh! I get it — Jesus isn't looking to get in — He's looking to get OUT!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 22, 2011, 06:29:29 PM
I was given to smile one day when I read of a young boy that after he understood that Jesus lives within him and stands at the door and knocks exclaimed:
Oh! I get it — Jesus isn't looking to get in — He's looking to get OUT!
:HeartThrob: from the mouth of Babes :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 06:35:27 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 22, 2011, 06:29:29 PM
I was given to smile one day when I read of a young boy that after he understood that Jesus lives within him and stands at the door and knocks exclaimed:
Oh! I get it — Jesus isn't looking to get in — He's looking to get OUT!
:HeartThrob: from the mouth of Babes :icon_flower:
That's cute, but that's not what the passage says.
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will
come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
[I will]
"come in" [ to him]
G1525
εἰσέρχομαι
eiserchomai
ice-er'-khom-ahee
From G1519 and G2064;
to enter (literally or figuratively): - X arise, come (in, into),
enter in (-to), go in (through).
Quote from: Taffywe ARE free FROM DEATH and tat which caused it
Do you believe that you are free from death right now?
If so, do you still think that 'you' are going to die? [not your body, 'you.'] And if so, how can you be free from death?
But once He's within, Molly, does He sit silently?
Or does He appear on our lips?
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 07:03:06 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 06:35:27 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 22, 2011, 06:29:29 PM
I was given to smile one day when I read of a young boy that after he understood that Jesus lives within him and stands at the door and knocks exclaimed:
Oh! I get it — Jesus isn't looking to get in — He's looking to get OUT!
:HeartThrob: from the mouth of Babes :icon_flower:
That's cute, but that's not what the passage says.
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
[I will] "come in" [ to him]
G1525
εἰσέρχομαι
eiserchomai
ice-er'-khom-ahee
From G1519 and G2064; to enter (literally or figuratively): - X arise, come (in, into), enter in (-to), go in (through).
For mine Christ is in ALL men Molly ,for NOW just sleeping in the soul of the BOAT- awaiting for the TRUTH[ HIM] to be revealed :icon_flower: some sleeping . some AWAKE- AS THE SCRIPTURES SHOW, HES woken when the trials of Life BEAT upon our SOUL--- :icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 07:07:03 PM
Quote from: Taffywe ARE free FROM DEATH and tat which caused it
Do you believe that you are free from death right now?
If so, do you still think that 'you' are going to die? [not your body, 'you.'] And if so, how can you be free from death?
we being in death were reconcilled while we WERE enemies Molly - DEATH riegns NO MORE - I belive that This SHELL our body will fade - like manya Body before it - Death is Not of this BODY , DEATH is HELL being the seperation of our carnal minds-it is NOT I who LIVE but he who lives THROUGH ME---OUR LIFE hid IN him
...come in to him and will sup with him and he with me.
I think Christ can only talk to Christ, otherwise he sounds to the listener like the punishing angry God of the OT.
So, yes, the Christ inside of man has to be awoken first. [If any man hear my voice and open the door...] He IS the door.
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 07:25:05 PM
...come in to him and will sup with him and he with me.
I think Christ can only talk to Christ, otherwise he sounds to the listener like the punishing angry God of the OT.
So, yes, the Christ inside of man has to be awoken first. [If any man hear my voice and open the door...] He IS the door.
yes Molly an inward one-- not a Christ flies from the skies entering your heart-- no more than SATAN ENTERING the Body of Judas----
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 07:30:39 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 07:25:05 PM
...come in to him and will sup with him and he with me.
I think Christ can only talk to Christ, otherwise he sounds to the listener like the punishing angry God of the OT.
So, yes, the Christ inside of man has to be awoken first. [If any man hear my voice and open the door...] He IS the door.
yes Molly an inward one-- not a Christ flies from the skies entering your heart-- no more than SATAN ENTERING the Body of Judas----
I didn't say that lol.
I don't agree with that.
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 07:33:49 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 07:30:39 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 07:25:05 PM
...come in to him and will sup with him and he with me.
I think Christ can only talk to Christ, otherwise he sounds to the listener like the punishing angry God of the OT.
So, yes, the Christ inside of man has to be awoken first. [If any man hear my voice and open the door...] He IS the door.
yes Molly an inward one-- not a Christ flies from the skies entering your heart-- no more than SATAN ENTERING the Body of Judas----
I didn't say that lol.
I don't agree with that.
Then Christ is a Literal door too then -lol-- :HeartThrob:
yes Molly I appreciate you dont believe it :icon_flower:
LOL
Yes he is a literal door. A door is something you go through to get in and out of buildings [or temples or sheep pens].
A door can keep you in or keep you out.
No one comes to the Father except through me.
--John 14:6
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 07:38:03 PM
LOL
Yes he is a literal door. A door is something you go through to get in and out of buildings [or temples or sheep pens].
A door can keep you in or keep you out.
No one comes to the Father but through me.
--John 14:6
if you known me long enough Molly by Literal, I mean Natural or physical ---- :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 07:45:34 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 07:38:03 PM
LOL
Yes he is a literal door. A door is something you go through to get in and out of buildings [or temples or sheep pens].
A door can keep you in or keep you out.
No one comes to the Father but through me.
--John 14:6
if you known me long enough Molly by Literal, I mean Natural or physical ---- :icon_flower:
well, if I could say, it's all literal, natural, physical. Like physics, it's just a matter of how much we know about the literal, natural, physical. Physics looks different to Fermi than it did to Newton, but they were both right.
Taffy's comments resemble the views of John Thomas (1805-1872). See Chapter 3 of Elpis Israel (http://www.christadelphia.org/books/elpis03.htm).
In the wilderness, the things that happened to the Israelites were for our examples, Paul said. [1 Corinthians 10:11] The serpents were sent because the people had tempted Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:9
Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
The serpent of brass that Moses made, and lifted up on a pole, is symbolic of Jesus, who was crucified to take away the sin of the world. It was his body that was nailed to the cross, not his mind, whether carnal or not.
Isaiah said "the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." [Isaiah 53:6]
This is what we all need to look towards; Jesus took away our iniquities.
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.
Doug
Gehenna and the land promise (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/VH/VH-index.php)
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 07:55:50 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 07:50:30 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 07:45:34 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 07:38:03 PM
LOL
Yes he is a literal door. A door is something you go through to get in and out of buildings [or temples or sheep pens].
A door can keep you in or keep you out.
No one comes to the Father but through me.
--John 14:6
if you known me long enough Molly by Literal, I mean Natural or physical ---- :icon_flower:
or we could say the Natural is the shadow of the ReAlity---- first seek the Kingdom of God ... seek and you shall FIND Knock and it will be OPENED-----the Kingdom is WITHIN as is the DOOR who is purple scarleT and Blue--And he made an hanging for the tabernacle door [of] blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen, of needlework; - WHICH STARTS with faith
well, if I could say, it's all literal, natural, physical. Like physics, it's just a matter of how much we know about the literal, natural, physical. Physics looks different to Fermi than it did to Newton, but they were both right.
TRUTH has been around for eons bro but whos John Thomas?
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 07:50:30 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 07:45:34 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 07:38:03 PM
LOL
Yes he is a literal door. A door is something you go through to get in and out of buildings [or temples or sheep pens].
A door can keep you in or keep you out.
No one comes to the Father but through me.
--John 14:6
or we could say the Natural is the Shadow of the spiritua reality as was the TEMPLE-- seek ye FIRST the Kingdom... seek and yopu shall FIND knock and it will be OPENED--- the Kingdon is WITHIN as is the Door-And he made an hanging for the tabernacle door [of] blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen, of needlework; which begins with FAITH
if you known me long enough Molly by Literal, I mean Natural or physical ---- :icon_flower:
well, if I could say, it's all literal, natural, physical. Like physics, it's just a matter of how much we know about the literal, natural, physical. Physics looks different to Fermi than it did to Newton, but they were both right.
NO WORRIES jUST GOOGLE HIM -- A CHRISTEDELPHIAN---- how odd-- my wife originated her belief ages ago through her folks--- but i didnt know that---as this came from WITHIN and NO man
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 08:03:38 PM
NO WORRIES jUST GOOGLE HIM -- A CHRISTEDELPHIAN---- how odd-- my wife originated her belief ages ago through her folks--- but i didnt know that---as this came from WITHIN and NO man
Do you mean your views are influenced by your wife's background? Can you tell us what that was?
Doug
Gehenna and the land promise
(http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/VH/VH-index.php)
Quote from: Doug on April 22, 2011, 08:23:43 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 08:03:38 PM
NO WORRIES jUST GOOGLE HIM -- A CHRISTEDELPHIAN---- how odd-- my wife originated her belief ages ago through her folks--- but i didnt know that---as this came from WITHIN and NO man
Do you mean your views are influenced by your wife's background? Can you tell us what that was?
Doug
Gehenna and the land promise
(http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/VH/VH-index.php)
ABSOLUTELY not--- RELIGION IS A DEAD BEAST HERE FRIEND--- HAS BEEN 20 YRS--- WHY SHOULD YOU PRESUME SUCH---?just cos another Linked with the Christelphians also understood it----- what are saying Doug-- speak out
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 08:32:02 PM
Quote from: Doug on April 22, 2011, 08:23:43 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 08:03:38 PM
NO WORRIES jUST GOOGLE HIM -- A CHRISTEDELPHIAN---- how odd-- my wife originated her belief ages ago through her folks--- but i didnt know that---as this came from WITHIN and NO man
Do you mean your views are influenced by your wife's background? Can you tell us what that was?
Doug
Gehenna and the land promise
(http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/VH/VH-index.php)
ABSOULUTELY not--- RELIGION IS A DEAD BEAST HERE FRIEND--- HAS BEEN 20 YRS--- WHY SHOULD YOU PRESUME SUCH---?just cos another Linked with the Christelphians also understood it----- wehat are saying Doug-- speak out
I was curious why you mentioned your wife's beliefs in your response. You said: "my wife originated her belief ages ago through her folks"
I was asking for some clarification; how does your wife and her beliefs relate?
Please clarify what you meant, I'm sure others are curious too. I meant nothing sinister by my question.
Doug
Gehenna and the land promise (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/VH/VH-index.php)
Quote from: Doug on April 22, 2011, 08:37:55 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 08:32:02 PM
Quote from: Doug on April 22, 2011, 08:23:43 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 08:03:38 PM
NO WORRIES jUST GOOGLE HIM -- A CHRISTEDELPHIAN---- how odd-- my wife originated her belief ages ago through her folks--- but i didnt know that---as this came from WITHIN and NO man
Do you mean your views are influenced by your wife's background? Can you tell us what that was?
Doug
Gehenna and the land promise
(http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/VH/VH-index.php)
ABSOULUTELY not--- RELIGION IS A DEAD BEAST HERE FRIEND--- HAS BEEN 20 YRS--- WHY SHOULD YOU PRESUME SUCH---?just cos another Linked with the Christelphians also understood it----- wehat are saying Doug-- speak out
I was curious why you mentioned your wife's beliefs in your response. You said: "my wife originated her belief ages ago through her folks"
I was asking for some clarification; how does your wife and her beliefs relate?
Please clarify what you meant, I'm sure others are curious too. I meant nothing sinister by my question.
Doug
Gehenna and the land promise (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/VH/VH-index.php)
what would like her lifes story- i was merely piointed out a coiincidence - thats IT----I know very Little about the CDs--- only that my inlaws started there faith within as did their folks before but left 25 yrs ago---- thay havent been talked about since---
-- I met my wife 86 in the OLDWWCG-- the only foundation of religion we shared was that-- but left that hypocrisy some twenty yrs back-- My wife and I discuss Much--- but not of the DEAD days for sure- :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 08:42:54 PM
what would like her lifes story- i was merely piointed out a coiincidence - thats IT----I know very Little about the CDs--- only that my inlaws started there faith within as did their folks before but left 25 yrs ago---- thay havent been talked about since---
-- I met my wife 86 in the OLDWWCG-- the only foundation of religion we shared was that-- but left that hypocrisy some twenty yrs back-- My wife and I discuss Much--- but not of the DEAD days for sure- :icon_flower:
Ok, thanks.
Gehenna and the land promise (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/VH/VH-index.php)
Quote from: Doug on April 22, 2011, 08:57:03 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 08:42:54 PM
what would like her lifes story- i was merely piointed out a coincidence - thats IT----I know very Little about the CDs--- only that my inlaws started there faith within as did their folks before but left 25 yrs ago---- thay havent been talked about since---
-- I met my wife 86 in the OLDWWCG-- the only foundation of religion we shared was that-- but left that hypocrisy some twenty yrs back-- My wife and I discuss Much--- but not of the DEAD days for sure- :icon_flower:
Ok, thanks.
Gehenna and the land promise (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/VH/VH-index.php)
YW :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 05:47:38 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 22, 2011, 05:27:53 PM
The "simples." I try I really pray for understanding but I continue to remain befuddled when you post the "simples." I am not trying to be a smart aleck, I just dont get your teachings a good part of the time.
Like this "....seek the understanding of the serpent..." :sigh:
The serpent is the Carnal mind- and this for you is a Stumbling Block--- which was Raised upon a POLE in the WILDENESS BY MOSES--- the SERPENT was BRASS meaning Judgment , the same brass of the ALTER which ANimal[ christ] were BURNED for forgiveness of sin--- The serpent of BRASS on the pole means the SERPENT [ CARNAL MIND ] has been Judged -
who ELSE was RAISED upon a POLE made of wood WHO TOO WAS judged? Yes The LORD on the CROSS who DIED for the very same Carnal Mind wich was Birthed in the GARDEN--- our carnal mind through FAITH are baptised into HIS death , =the perishing of the carnal mind , being RAISED with HIM= moving from DEATH to LIFE which is the symbolism shown in this scripture---MAN entered and descended in the very LOWER depths of the EARTH= HELL= DEATH-- where The LORD joined USin OUR DEATH by which we will be raised[ ascend ] WITH him---
RIGHT now we are In the heanenlies--- sitting with HIM---- why because the OLD MAN is is dead.. ITS MAN who can not enter the heavens--- not the spiritual man----
Blessings :icon_flower:
Please pardon my attitude but
I did not know that this forum, other than believing that Jesus died and rose from the dead, knew just about all the other treasures to be revealed.... have been found and that when Im told that the
"serpent is the carnal mind" then thats it. Shut the seeking down on that. Ive reached the bottom line. Either I get that or I just quit.
If Im wrong all I can say is thats the way it reads to me.
no prblem- I meant no offence just being honest with what is TRUE concerning the serpent- so I offend yoAu NO more-- consider this the last post to you Directly--- :icon_flower:
Taffy,
Are the carnal mind and the Son of Perdition one and the same?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 22, 2011, 09:32:19 PM
Taffy,
Are the carnal mind and the Son of Perdition one and the same?
:icon_flower:
The son of perdition is very much the carnal mind[ soul] of US all Judas is an example , THE SOUL of man who is LOST in the FLAMES being straw, stubble etc :icon_flower:
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost,
but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. :icon_flower:
Micah, I don't believe the serpent is the carnal mind.
I believe there were three in the garden in Gen 3.
I believe the carnal mind is susceptible to the serpent.
But we have the mind of Christ.
--1 Cor 2:16
Spirit, soul and body?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 22, 2011, 09:53:51 PM
Spirit, soul and body?
im happy Molly should menton 3-
http://www.greatdreams.com/three/three.htm
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 22, 2011, 09:53:51 PM
Spirit, soul and body?
It could be. I mean it works. But, it reduces Gen 2 and 3 to allegory. And, to my mind, it also maligns the humans, and God.
allegory
Noun
1. A story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.
2. The genre to which such works belong.
Ibelieve Genesis Is allegory---- the THREE as you say in the Garden-- ADAM, eve being HIS soul shown as HIS MIND and what Takes Place within----THEREFORE- 3 making ONE-JUST MY TWO PENNIES molly :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:00:41 PM
Ibelieve Genesis Is allegory---- the THREE as you say in the Garden-- ADAM, eve being HIS soul shown as HIS MIND and what Takes Place within----THEREFORE- 3 making ONE-JUST MY TWO PENNIES molly :icon_flower:
I know you do. That's ok. I'm just saying, I don't. :icon_flower:
When the LORD God kicked the man and woman out of the garden, someone else went outside with them--the LORD.
I consider that real, not allegory.
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 11:07:49 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:00:41 PM
Ibelieve Genesis Is allegory---- the THREE as you say in the Garden-- ADAM, eve being HIS soul shown as HIS MIND and what Takes Place within----THEREFORE- 3 making ONE-JUST MY TWO PENNIES molly :icon_flower:
I know you do. That's ok. I'm just saying, I don't. :icon_flower:
When the LORD God kicked the man and woman out of the garden, someone else went outside with them--the LORD.
I consider that real, not allegory.
the carnal man \mind DOESNT have access to the garden Molly but HE never leaves US
Taffy, Are you saying that WE are the Garden of God?
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:13:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 11:07:49 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:00:41 PM
Ibelieve Genesis Is allegory---- the THREE as you say in the Garden-- ADAM, eve being HIS soul shown as HIS MIND and what Takes Place within----THEREFORE- 3 making ONE-JUST MY TWO PENNIES molly :icon_flower:
I know you do. That's ok. I'm just saying, I don't. :icon_flower:
When the LORD God kicked the man and woman out of the garden, someone else went outside with them--the LORD.
I consider that real, not allegory.
the carnal man \mind DOESNT have access to the garden Molly but HE never leaves US
But they were in the garden. So how does that work? They somehow acquired the carnal mind in the garden? How did the carnal mind get inside the garden if it can't be there?
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 11:18:32 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:13:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 11:07:49 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:00:41 PM
Ibelieve Genesis Is allegory---- the THREE as you say in the Garden-- ADAM, eve being HIS soul shown as HIS MIND and what Takes Place within----THEREFORE- 3 making ONE-JUST MY TWO PENNIES molly :icon_flower:
I know you do. That's ok. I'm just saying, I don't. :icon_flower:
When the LORD God kicked the man and woman out of the garden, someone else went outside with them--the LORD.
I consider that real, not allegory.
the carnal man \mind DOESNT have access to the garden Molly but HE never leaves US
But they were in the garden. So how does that work? They somehow acquired the carnal mind in the garden? How did the carnal mind get inside the garden if it can't be there?
do you consider them perfect prior to the sin?--- it was the sin was caused the exit---were going HOME for mine Molly---
I think he means that the carnal mind cannot access the spiritual riches that are found in the garden. That only the mind of Christ can reach that place.
:2c:
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:25:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 11:18:32 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:13:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 11:07:49 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:00:41 PM
Ibelieve Genesis Is allegory---- the THREE as you say in the Garden-- ADAM, eve being HIS soul shown as HIS MIND and what Takes Place within----THEREFORE- 3 making ONE-JUST MY TWO PENNIES molly :icon_flower:
I know you do. That's ok. I'm just saying, I don't. :icon_flower:
When the LORD God kicked the man and woman out of the garden, someone else went outside with them--the LORD.
I consider that real, not allegory.
the carnal man \mind DOESNT have access to the garden Molly but HE never leaves US
But they were in the garden. So how does that work? They somehow acquired the carnal mind in the garden? How did the carnal mind get inside the garden if it can't be there?
do you consider them perfect prior to the sin?--- it was the sin was caused the exit---were going HOME for mine Molly---
Yes, I do think they were created perfect--in the sense that they were created to be in union with Christ. Satan usurped that role. Jesus bought it back.
Quote from: thinktank on April 22, 2011, 11:27:30 PM
I think he means that the carnal mind cannot access the spiritual riches that are found in the garden. That only the mind of Christ can reach that place.
:2c:
Yes, I understand what he's saying, but they were there.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 22, 2011, 11:17:26 PM
Taffy, Are you saying that WE are the Garden of God?
SOME ONE ASKED - WHAT IS THE KINGDOM of GOD like
It seems a Man PLANTED a Mustard seed in a GARDEN and it GREW like a GREAT TREE#
songs of Solomon SPEAK a Lot about aa GARDEN---
Sgs 4:15 A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon.
Sgs 4:16 ¶ Awake, O north wind;[ Judgment comes from the NORTH] and come, thou south; blow upon my garden, [that] the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits
WE Just maybe Beloved Servant :HeartThrob:
In Genesis 3:1 we read, "Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" The word serpent in our language comes from the Latin serpo meaning "to creep," but the Hebrew term has no relation to the form or motion of any external attribute of a serpent The word used here for serpent is the Hebrew word NACHASH which is a primitive root meaning "to his or whisper." It, furthermore, means "to search or scrutinize closely, to find out by experiment, to practice divination, augury, incantation or enchantment." According to Webster incantation means "the chanting of special words or a formula in magic spells or rites," Incantation may speak in addition of hypnotism. The Serpent, then, is a HISSER, a WHISPERER, a DIVINER, an EXPERIMENTER, an ENCHANTER, a MAGICIAN, and a HYPNOTIST! And, I might add, so is the carnal mind!
In Isaiah 8:19 the Holy Spirit has recorded for our learning a most significant exhortation. "And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? For the living to the dead?" The same inspired prophet penned a prophecy concerning Jerusalem under the prophetic term "Ariel," saying, "Thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be... out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust" (Isa. 29: 4). Here we read of spirits that "peep and mutter," which speak "out of the ground" and "whisper out of the dust." Is this not reminiscent of the Serpent in Eden, the hisser and whisperer, calling to Eve and speaking hypnotically from the dust realm?
Whisperings out of the dust – there is something sinister in the thought, but beyond the evil that is suggested, there is also the thought of subtle suggestion – a whispered temptation – something so subtle one could wonder from whence it comes, a word so low and so whispered as to be almost imperceptible —or is it a thought, a desire, a command from an inner nature These whisperings ARISE FROM THE DUST OF THE CARNAL MIND, OUT OF THE GROUND OF THE ADAM NATURE where lies the Serpent! It is significant to note that "the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made" (Gen. 3: 1). The contrast is drawn between the Garden and the field Adam lived and walked in the Garden, and his responsibility was to "dress and keep it." Garden is from the Hebrew GAN, meaning a fenced or protected area. It was, furthermore, cultivated and tended. Field is from the Hebrew SADEH, indicating that which is spread out; flat land; wild farm or wilderness. The field where the Serpent dwelt was an unfenced and uncultivated area. This field bespeaks of the mind of the flesh – the unbroken, unharnessed, unbridled, untended, unplowed, unprocessed, undisciplined, unprotected sphere from whence the Serpent "whispered out of the dust" – the subtle voice whispering enticingly from the unexplored wildlands of the FLESH! This whisper, this tantalizing hiss is communicated through the thoughts, reasoning, desires, passions, plans, hopes, fantasies and cravings of the CARNAL MIND! In the first age of Adam's creation, God used the Serpent to reveal what lay dormant, undiscovered and uncultivated within man's innermost being – a CUNNING NATURE – EGO – SELFHOOD independent of God. If by the grace of God you can see the truth of this, you will then plainly discern in all the propensities of the carnal mind the CREEPING, SLITHERING, WHISPERING, DIVINING, ENCHANTING, HYPNOTIZING SERPENT OF EDEN!
Before pursuing this thought, we do well to consider also the word translated "subtle" in this passage. "Now the serpent was more subtle than any best of the field." The Hebrew word for "naked" in Gen. 2: 25 is AROM. The English word that describes the Serpent's nature in Gen. 3: 1 is "subtle," and the Hebrew word here is ARUM. Both AROM and ARUM are derived from ARAM which means "to be bare, to be cunning" Hebrew scholars say that originally these three words were the same word – ARAM. Now, why should the expression "naked" and the term "cunning" be the same word? What is the connection? We can answer with only one word: SEDUCTIVE. By way of illustration, a naked woman may be a seductive woman. There is a close connection between the two. The ideas of naked and cunning come together in the word SEDUCTIVE or SEDUCE. Can we not see by this that the Serpent was actually more seductive than anything in the bestial realm. Ah! the mind of the flesh is, in truth, the most seductive thing in the world!
— Preston Eby
ECHOES FROM EDEN Part XXXII
www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Echoes/echoes32.htm
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 11:34:12 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:25:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 11:18:32 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:13:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 11:07:49 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:00:41 PM
Ibelieve Genesis Is allegory---- the THREE as you say in the Garden-- ADAM, eve being HIS soul shown as HIS MIND and what Takes Place within----THEREFORE- 3 making ONE-JUST MY TWO PENNIES molly :icon_flower:
I know you do. That's ok. I'm just saying, I don't. :icon_flower:
When the LORD God kicked the man and woman out of the garden, someone else went outside with them--the LORD.
I consider that real, not allegory.
the carnal man \mind DOESNT have access to the garden Molly but HE never leaves US
But they were in the garden. So how does that work? They somehow acquired the carnal mind in the garden? How did the carnal mind get inside the garden if it can't be there?
do you consider them perfect prior to the sin?--- it was the sin was caused the exit---were going HOME for mine Molly---
Yes, I do think they were created perfect--in the sense that they were created to be in union with Christ. Satan usurped that role. Jesus bought it back.
I just hope The lord doesnt GOOF again when we have spirtual Bodies ans so call REBELL----
Yes, I agree with that--the garden is hidden inside of us now, which mystery was hidden from the ages but revealed to the Gentiles by Paul--Christ in you, the hope of glory. [Col 1: 27]
Which also again explains why he can enter in to us and commune with us.
The Song of Solomon speaks of THREE gardens:
THE GARDEN OF FLOWERS
THE GARDEN OF SPICES
THE GARDEN OF NUTS
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 11:44:31 PM
Yes, I agree with that--the garden is hidden inside of us now, which mystery was hidden from the ages but revealed to the Gentiles by Paul--Christ in you, the hope of glory. [Col 1: 27]
Which also again explains why he can enter in to us and commune with us.
it was Inside ADAM but was LOCKED out like ALL MEN---THANKS Molly :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:40:23 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 11:34:12 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:25:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 11:18:32 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:13:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 11:07:49 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:00:41 PM
Ibelieve Genesis Is allegory---- the THREE as you say in the Garden-- ADAM, eve being HIS soul shown as HIS MIND and what Takes Place within----THEREFORE- 3 making ONE-JUST MY TWO PENNIES molly :icon_flower:
I know you do. That's ok. I'm just saying, I don't. :icon_flower:
When the LORD God kicked the man and woman out of the garden, someone else went outside with them--the LORD.
I consider that real, not allegory.
the carnal man \mind DOESNT have access to the garden Molly but HE never leaves US
But they were in the garden. So how does that work? They somehow acquired the carnal mind in the garden? How did the carnal mind get inside the garden if it can't be there?
do you consider them perfect prior to the sin?--- it was the sin was caused the exit---were going HOME for mine Molly---
Yes, I do think they were created perfect--in the sense that they were created to be in union with Christ. Satan usurped that role. Jesus bought it back.
I just hope The lord doesnt GOOF again when we have spirtual Bodies ans so call REBELL----
He didn't goof. He had a plan.
It was always intended that we would need a Savior.
Someone needed to show us the way.
He had to do it Himself.
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 11:52:16 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:40:23 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 11:34:12 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:25:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 11:18:32 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:13:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 11:07:49 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:00:41 PM
Ibelieve Genesis Is allegory---- the THREE as you say in the Garden-- ADAM, eve being HIS soul shown as HIS MIND and what Takes Place within----THEREFORE- 3 making ONE-JUST MY TWO PENNIES molly :icon_flower:
I know you do. That's ok. I'm just saying, I don't. :icon_flower:
When the LORD God kicked the man and woman out of the garden, someone else went outside with them--the LORD.
I consider that real, not allegory.
the carnal man \mind DOESNT have access to the garden Molly but HE never leaves US
But they were in the garden. So how does that work? They somehow acquired the carnal mind in the garden? How did the carnal mind get inside the garden if it can't be there?
do you consider them perfect prior to the sin?--- it was the sin was caused the exit---were going HOME for mine Molly---
Yes, I do think they were created perfect--in the sense that they were created to be in union with Christ. Satan usurped that role. Jesus bought it back.
I just hope The lord doesnt GOOF again when we have spirtual Bodies ans so call REBELL----
He didn't goof. He had a plan.
It was always intended that we would need a Savior.
ya Miss the POINT -- are you now saying HE planned satan who is supposed have had His creation but and fell although a SPIRIT--how on earth can you destroy a SPIRIT---the Mind boggles???-No The Lord never FAILED - you know the other day Iheard some one say Satan committed sucide-- Ive never laughed so much in my days--- of subject--- time to move on
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:51:31 PM
Quote from: Molly on April 22, 2011, 11:44:31 PM
Yes, I agree with that--the garden is hidden inside of us now, which mystery was hidden from the ages but revealed to the Gentiles by Paul--Christ in you, the hope of glory. [Col 1: 27]
Which also again explains why he can enter in to us and commune with us.
it was Inside ADAM but was LOCKED out like ALL MEN---THANKS Molly :icon_flower:
Adam was in the garden, but when he was locked out, he was hidden in Christ, and Christ and the garden hidden in him.
That is how the Word of God could appear to and talk to men in the OT.
Satan thought he had won, but it was a pyrrhic victory.
Song of Solomon 4:12
A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.
sorry I must share this- he told me that SATAN came down and used the Body of the SERPENT to speak through----so one could help to answer well If the SERPENt, the great Dragon IS satan-- are you saying that Satan who no longer has a BODY popped into the Garden and JUMPED into HIS own Body he didnt have------ excuse me while i do a Bro willie cause for sure this utter nonsence :thumbdown: :laughing7:
You mean this scripture Molly
Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
The world was created before men according to Genesis, regardless of how old the world is or whether it was re created.
Unless it is talking about the world. I.e The sinful world, the world that God speaks of when he says things such as Mine are in the world but not of the world. Or the world heareth them.
If God is talking about the foundation of the fallen world, rather than the foundation of the created earth, then there is a possibility that the plan to send Jesus to die was AFTER the serpent beguiled Adam and Eve. Which means it's a possibility that it was planned to slay the lamb only if Adam and Eve failed.
QuoteAdam was in the garden, but when he was locked out, he was hidden in Christ, and Christ and the garden hidden in him.
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffyya Miss the POINT -- are you now saying HE planned satan who is supposed have had His creation but and fell although a SPIRIT--how on earth can you destroy a SPIRIT---the Mind boggles???-No The Lord never FAILED - you know the other day Iheard some one say Satan committed sucide-- Ive never laughed so much in my days--- of subject--- time to move on
I don't know what you just said. I said God didn't goof when he created Adam.
But, you seem to be saying he did goof, because you are saying God created man with a carnal mind that would be at enmity to God. Why would God do that?
QuoteRevelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
HOW does ONE become written in the BOOK of LIFE? hence those who entered the Lake werent WRITTTEN IN
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Quote from: Molly on April 23, 2011, 12:05:20 AM
Quote from: Taffyya Miss the POINT -- are you now saying HE planned satan who is supposed have had His creation but and fell although a SPIRIT--how on earth can you destroy a SPIRIT---the Mind boggles???-No The Lord never FAILED - you know the other day Iheard some one say Satan committed sucide-- Ive never laughed so much in my days--- of subject--- time to move on
I don't know what you just said. I said God didn't goof when he created Adam.
But, you seem to be saying he did goof, because you are saying God created man with a carnal mind that would be at enmity to God. Why would God do that?
WRONG premise Molly No i didnt meAN That
Satan usurped that role. from your stand point i continued with satan the so called ENTITY
Uncovered, the carnal mind is at enmity with God.
In Christ it is not.
He did this so that we can be like Him.
Quote from: thinktank on April 23, 2011, 12:11:43 AM
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
YOU MEAN THROUGH THE POWER of the CROSS right-- ? so to be written in you have to go terough The Cross, those who go through it are the CARNAL mmnded - the Liars, the theives, the Murderers ect--- so the LOF fire being the 2ND death which is HIS death which becomes OURS we pass through the FLAMES---- :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:37:45 PM
SOME ONE ASKED - WHAT IS THE KINGDOM of GOD like
It seems a Man PLANTED a Mustard seed in a GARDEN and it GREW like a GREAT TREE#
songs of Solomon SPEAK a Lot about aa GARDEN---
Sgs 4:15 A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon.
Lebanon is indeed a tree/wood.
But it's also a name Jews gave to the Holy (of Hollies) because It was made of those trees.
So perhaps that verse is better translated using sanctuary?
Also interesting is the root word of Lebanon.
לבן
lâban
BDB Definition:
1) to be white
1a) (Hiphil)
1a1) to make white, become white, purify1a2) to show whiteness, grow white
1b) (Hithpael) to become white, be purified (ethical)
2) (Qal) to make bricks
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1074b, 1074h
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 23, 2011, 12:15:02 AM
Uncovered, the carnal mind is at enmity with God.
In Christ it is not.
He did this so that we can be like Him.
Was Adam created 'uncovered'? Or when/how did Adam lose his cover? What do you mean by 'covered'?
Not Clothed With Christ.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 23, 2011, 12:20:34 AM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:37:45 PM
SOME ONE ASKED - WHAT IS THE KINGDOM of GOD like
It seems a Man PLANTED a Mustard seed in a GARDEN and it GREW like a GREAT TREE#
songs of Solomon SPEAK a Lot about aa GARDEN---
Sgs 4:15 A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon.
Lebanon is indeed a tree/wood.
But it's also a name Jews gave to the Holy (of Hollies) because It was made of those trees.
So perhaps that verse is better translated using sanctuary?
Also interesting is the root word of Lebanon.
לבן
lâban
BDB Definition:
1) to be white
1a) (Hiphil)
1a1) to make white, become white, purify1a2) to show whiteness, grow white
1b) (Hithpael) to become white, be purified (ethical)
2) (Qal) to make bricks
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1074b, 1074h
:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Psalm 92:12 "The
righteous shall
flourish like the palm tree; he
shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon."
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 23, 2011, 12:34:23 AM
Not Clothed With Christ.
So when Adam left the garden, he lost his cover [of Christ] and was clothed with the skins of beasts?
Adam was hedged in for good reason (body and garden).
God never leaves us.
The plan of God requires a learning process.
Glory to glory as we go.
The cross is the Way of Christ.
While Jesus did it for us by no means instead of us, we too must pick it up and follow.
Quote from: Taffy on April 23, 2011, 12:35:26 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 23, 2011, 12:20:34 AM
Quote from: Taffy on April 22, 2011, 11:37:45 PM
SOME ONE ASKED - WHAT IS THE KINGDOM of GOD like
It seems a Man PLANTED a Mustard seed in a GARDEN and it GREW like a GREAT TREE#
songs of Solomon SPEAK a Lot about aa GARDEN---
Sgs 4:15 A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon.
Lebanon is indeed a tree/wood.
But it's also a name Jews gave to the Holy (of Hollies) because It was made of those trees.
So perhaps that verse is better translated using sanctuary?
Also interesting is the root word of Lebanon.
לבן
lâban
BDB Definition:
1) to be white
1a) (Hiphil)
1a1) to make white, become white, purify1a2) to show whiteness, grow white
1b) (Hithpael) to become white, be purified (ethical)
2) (Qal) to make bricks
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1074b, 1074h
:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Psalm 92:12 "The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree; he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon."
palm branches were used for making the booths during the feast of tabernacles
Quote from: fullarmor2 on April 22, 2011, 04:29:07 AM
Jesus said "fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna". My thought on this is that its referring to physical death only. Thats what death is. The destruction of body and soul. The body goes back to dust. The soul, which is the senses and feelings for the body, ceases to exist with no living body. And the spirit of the person goes into the "unseen" back to God who gave it, without consciousness or awareness. Sort of like being asleep I would think. The person will not exist again until they are resurrected by God. At which time, God will bring the person's body up again, restore the spirit, bringing life again which restores the soul.
I did a study on the words resurrection, rouse, vivify, soul, and spirit, from the CLT and it led to me having this view on death. My point is, so many people think that Jesus is referring to unending punishment in the next life here when it says "destroy body and SOUL" and it doesn't. The soul is destroyed whenever the body is destroyed. Again its just physical death is all.
This is so on target for ME, :thumbsup:
Quote from: HartleyIrvinDamboiseII on April 24, 2011, 03:30:38 AM
Quote from: fullarmor2 on April 22, 2011, 04:29:07 AM
Jesus said "fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna". My thought on this is that its referring to physical death only. Thats what death is. The destruction of body and soul. The body goes back to dust. The soul, which is the senses and feelings for the body, ceases to exist with no living body. And the spirit of the person goes into the "unseen" back to God who gave it, without consciousness or awareness. Sort of like being asleep I would think. The person will not exist again until they are resurrected by God. At which time, God will bring the person's body up again, restore the spirit, bringing life again which restores the soul.
I did a study on the words resurrection, rouse, vivify, soul, and spirit, from the CLT and it led to me having this view on death. My point is, so many people think that Jesus is referring to unending punishment in the next life here when it says "destroy body and SOUL" and it doesn't. The soul is destroyed whenever the body is destroyed. Again its just physical death is all.
This is so on target for ME, :thumbsup:
That goes for me too :thumbsup:
Matthew 10:28 (King James Version)
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [geenna].
Let's see, one can kill the body but not able to kill the soul--the other is able to destroy both body and soul--which should I fear? Neither because it's just death?
Jesus is pointing out to them the power of God vs man.
He is also pointing out by the very wording that the soul survives the body.
The story that always gives me pause when thinking about the devil or demons as merely the carnal mind of men...is the one about Jesus casting demons into the pigs. Casting the carnal mind of men into the pigs? I don't think it fits.
(KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is
able to destroy both soul and body in hell ( gehenna.)
I am not sure of the significance but Jesus was speaking to the disciples, not to the masses. These are words for disciples and let us not forget that Jesus spoke only in parables.
It seems to me, perhaps there is more to Matt.10:28 than what religion and theology has offered up and we as searchers have not been revealed as yet?
I dont know, but it seems to me that there is more to glean. Certainly, when one says "He is also pointing out by the very wording that the soul survives the body."(Molly)
They do not take into consideration or they ignore its worth.... Ezk. 18:4 Lo, all the souls are Mine, As the soul of the father, So also the soul of the son--they are Mine, The soul that is sinning--it does die."
Eze 18:20 The soul that does sin--it does die. A son does not bear of the iniquity of the father, And a father does not bear of the iniquity of the son, The righteousness of the righteous is on him, And the wickedness of the wicked is on him."
Micah--Eze 18
Jesus comes to him and tells him to tell the Israelites to stop using the proverb that the sons will pay for the iniquities of the father.
1The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
2What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
Then he goes on to say, the soul that sins will die [for his own sins not his father's sins]
4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Then he goes on to list a series of caveats to this--
5But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
...Three more verses of caveats...
9Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.
--Eze 18
Molly, then this is not acceptable... ?"The soul that is sinning--it does die." Ezk. 18.20
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 24, 2011, 07:37:22 AM
Molly, then this is not acceptable... ?"The soul that is sinning--it does die." Ezk. 18.20
Why not?
I would think you would be more interested in the caveats. How to live rather than how to die. Have you read them?
I live through Christ. I believe as others that it is the simplicity of the Gospel.
Jesus died that all will live. When we die/expire/quit breathing, our body returns to dust and our breath(spirit) returns to the one who gave it.
That as far as I know means the person/soul has ceased to exsist on the earth as a living breathing creature, and the body will begin to return to dust, and the breath is with the Father/ the One who gave it.
Interesting. I see him as always offering salvation with both hands, even to Cain who is about to kill his brother.
6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?
--Gen 4
And over and over again to the Israelites.
31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
--Eze 18
Why do men hate the thought of salvation?
But King David got it right. He knew a good thing when he saw it.
6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
--Psa 23
Quote from: shawn on April 24, 2011, 04:58:46 AM
The story that always gives me pause when thinking about the devil or demons as merely the carnal mind of men...is the one about Jesus casting demons into the pigs. Casting the carnal mind of men into the pigs? I don't think it fits.
who are these swine and those who now have become the DOGS- just maye the pharisees etc?
ALL THINGS said in parables-Give not that which is holy
unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before
swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. remember its
THE feet which
preach the Gospel- However,
These FEET are those who preach the MINISTRYof DEATH-
the carnal mind is death and belongs where it will remain -IN DEATH--- Note the PIGS[ symbolic] were EATING from a MOUNTAIN, and it wasnt Zion- - SINIA means THORNY \=CURSE \=SIN- , OUR sins are cast into the SEA :HeartThrob:
The sea beneath is likened to the OC, \or the sea of HUMANITY
HE will turn again, HE will have
compassion upon us;
HE will
subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their
sins into the depths of the sea. :icon_flower:
And I saw a
new heaven and a new earth: for the
first heaven and the first earth were passed away[old covenant - natural understanding]; and there was
no more sea. :2c:
Quote from: Molly on April 24, 2011, 09:32:28 AM
Interesting. I see him as always offering salvation with both hands, even to Cain who is about to kill his brother.
6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?
--Gen 4
And over and over again to the Israelites.
31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
--Eze 18
Why do men hate the thought of salvation?
But King David got it right. He knew a good thing when he saw it.
6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
--Psa 23
Cain is a symbol of th e LAW earning SAlvation through the work of his hands- Abel a son of faaith- ie the better offering-- Cain the natrual\Carnal minded who slew His Brother ABEL in Type Jesus - Seth - instead of] Is the risen Christ in TYPE :icon_flower: :2c:
Hi Molly
the soul that sinneth DIED the moment it was Birthed , but alas Adam Didnt fall dead to the ground - HE became seperated from THE TRUTH-- such is - to BE CARNALLY minded is DEATH- :icon_flower: :2c:
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 24, 2011, 08:46:37 AM
I live through Christ. I believe as others that it is the simplicity of the Gospel.
Jesus died that all will live. When we die/expire/quit breathing, our body returns to dust and our breath(spirit) returns to the one who gave it.
That as far as I know means the person/soul has ceased to exsist on the earth as a living breathing creature, and the body will begin to return to dust, and the breath is with the Father/ the One who gave it.
Heeeeeey!! I totally agree with ya on that one bro!! That's where I am today with this as well!! Woot, woot!! :bgdance:
Wow Taf, this is awesome. Great depths that God is leading us into here.
It's so easy for us to become distracted by the natural events that we miss the spiritual principles that the natural events are displaying. I'll admit, seeing the spiritual principles connected to demons has never been a clear picture for me . . .until now . . .thank you for that bro!!
Just as demons are an extension of satan . . .my thoughts are an extension of my mind . . . when Jesus shows he is (not just "has" but "is") the power that casts out demons, he's revealing that his presence in our hearts casts out the power of our carnal thoughts, thus, renewing our minds!
Pigs are connected to uncleanness . . . of the worst kind even . . . when this legion . . .yeah, isn't it interesting that carnality always inflates itself? "Legion . . .for we are MANY . . ." is given permission to enter into the pigs . . .what a picture . . .carnality identifying, connection to, manifesting in unclean beasts . . .not just people ignorant of God's mercy, but religious whoremongers who become spiritual pimps with their followers . . . bound by the power of their own carnality, they paint themselves as white vessels but are nothing but hollow tombs of death, disease and destruction. And the fact that the pigs immediately ran off a cliff into the sea is a perfect picture of what happens when my mind is given over to it's own volitions. I will destroy myself in the carnality of this realm of death . . .the sea of humanity . . .it's the nature of the beast within us.
Once those who oversaw the pigs saw what had happened . . .instead of celebration, they reacted in fear . . .and rejection. But the guy from whom these things were driven out from? The last thing mentioned of him was . . .he was FULLY CLOTHED, (righteousness) SEATED (Rest) and of A SOUND MIND!!!! How can that "not" be a spiritual principle of the identity of one's carnal, stinking, thinking mind?
Awesome stuff man . . . I love it.
Quote from: Nathan on April 29, 2011, 02:04:00 AM
Wow Taf, this is awesome. Great depths that God is leading us into here.
It's so easy for us to become distracted by the natural events that we miss the spiritual principles that the natural events are displaying. I'll admit, seeing the spiritual principles connected to demons has never been a clear picture for me . . .until now . . .thank you for that bro!!
Just as demons are an extension of satan . . .my thoughts are an extension of my mind . . . when Jesus shows he is (not just "has" but "is") the power that casts out demons, he's revealing that his presence in our hearts casts out the power of our carnal thoughts, thus, renewing our minds!
Pigs are connected to uncleanness . . . of the worst kind even . . . when this legion . . .yeah, isn't it interesting that carnality always inflates itself? "Legion . . .for we are MANY . . ." is given permission to enter into the pigs . . .what a picture . . .carnality identifying, connection to, manifesting in unclean beasts . . .not just people ignorant of God's mercy, but religious whoremongers who become spiritual pimps with their followers . . . bound by the power of their own carnality, they paint themselves as white vessels but are nothing but hollow tombs of death, disease and destruction. And the fact that the pigs immediately ran off a cliff into the sea is a perfect picture of what happens when my mind is given over to it's own volitions. I will destroy myself in the carnality of this realm of death . . .the sea of humanity . . .it's the nature of the beast within us.
Once those who oversaw the pigs saw what had happened . . .instead of celebration, they reacted in fear . . .and rejection. But the guy from whom these things were driven out from? The last thing mentioned of him was . . .he was FULLY CLOTHED, (righteousness) SEATED (Rest) and of A SOUND MIND!!!! How can that "not" be a spiritual principle of the identity of one's carnal, stinking, thinking mind?
Awesome stuff man . . . I love it.
PTL Nat- its truly awesome when HIS light reveals---Garden-ares too means REWARD at the "END" :icon_flower: