If one suffers we all suffer

[jabcat]

That L.Ray response is a hoot, and it's amazing the unscriptural mumbo-jumbo in Hagee's sermon  when it's really looked at, and not just accepted as mainstream's "truth"  :mshock:...

[Paul Hazelwood]

Maybe Hagee is still blind to the truth but to believe ET makes God look vindicative and cruel.

Or he doesn't believe at all and makes tons of money entertaining those that like the gospel of  "they have it coming".

[Taffy]

I cannot attend a church that teaches ET, some can overlook this, My mind is too vulnerable to put myself through this.
It is so easy to get caught up in the drama and lies.
I just read L Ray Smith letter to pastor John Hagee, almost everything Hagee says in the letter Ray used was a lie yet Hagee is on TV still preaching the same.. even after it was brought to his attention he was adding too scriptures.
Maybe Hagee is still blind to the truth but to believe ET makes God look vindicative and cruel.
I would rather be an atheist than believe the ET lies.

Lets Put this in perspective...before we get to carried away thinking what Truth IS.

Show me in the Scriptures, where its a Prerequisite to Come to the Understanding Of UR, which in Turn makes us More righteous, therfore SAVED...obviously, the More Truth, the More Righteous

Or did I miss Read In eph

[WhiteWings]

Maybe Hagee is still blind to the truth but to believe ET makes God look vindicative and cruel.
I would rather be an atheist than believe the ET lies.

Maybe Hagee is hungry for cash....

"Peace sells but who is buying?"

[jabcat]

I agree Taf, I've been told before that if someone doesn't yet see UR, then they're basically still lost and depraved, not our brothers and sisters.  I think that stinks.  On the other hand, when God does reveal UR, it is such a MAJOR shift in thinking and approaching our relationship with God...how we view Him, ourselves, our fellow man, our purpose...all that stuff  :thumbsup:.

[Taffy]

I agree Taf, I've been told before that if someone doesn't yet see UR, then they're basically still lost and depraved, not our brothers and sisters.  I think that stinks.  On the other hand, when God does reveal UR, it is such a MAJOR shift in thinking and approaching our relationship with God...how we view Him, ourselves, our fellow man, our purpose...all that stuff  :thumbsup:.

I agree but it can also be a major shift in arrogance, tiss what we are saying.

Ive always stated , BLESSED are those who SEE UR, we are But a few,..but by faith we are saved...now before anyone Jumps in on that,... :bigGrin:

[SQ]

Lets Put this in perspective...before we get to carried away thinking what Truth IS.

Show me in the Scriptures, where its a Prerequisite to Come to the Understanding Of UR, which in Turn makes us More righteous, therfore SAVED...obviously, the More Truth, the More Righteous

Or did I miss Read In eph

What I was speaking of is Eternal Torment and to preach this is a faith killer.
I myself am not righteous at all and hope you didn't think I implied I was.
When I did believe in ET which I was taught in church I operated in fear.

Hey I am trying to get my post number to 15 so I can check profiles. :bigGrin:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Lets Put this in perspective...before we get to carried away thinking what Truth IS.

Show me in the Scriptures, where its a Prerequisite to Come to the Understanding Of UR, which in Turn makes us More righteous, therfore SAVED...obviously, the More Truth, the More Righteous

Or did I miss Read In eph

What I was speaking of is Eternal Torment and to preach this is a faith killer.
I myself am not righteous at all and hope you didn't think I implied I was.
When I did believe in ET which I was taught in church I operated in fear.

To me that is a fundamental problem with fellowship in a eternal hell believing church.  If it is fellowship in a church we must not forsake, then there will be a conflict.  The idea behind typical church attendance is that when you decide to become a member of a church you make a general statement whether specific or implied that you agree to the doctrine of that church.

During the time I was studying and working through all of what eventually brought me to UR was the fact that you can go to all different kinds of churches and they will all teach a variation on how to know if your "really" saved.

So which one is correct?  I come to realize why so many people do not dig into study for themselves.  It's not that people don't, its they find so many things opposite of what they have heard in church and that scares them.  They fall back upon the words that carefully instruct you to listen to the "leaders" of the church, so, many feel that they are being deceived when they read in scripture and see something so opposite.  Of course then they go to the leaders of the church who "nurture" and "guide" you back to the faith, because of course they are "leaders" so they inherantly are more "spiritual"   :Yeahright:

It's scary to stand in a group of "christians" that believe in an eternal hell and start implying that what they believe is a lie.   It's also scary to contemplate all these teachings about salvation and realize that if Traditional Christianity is right then most of us are going to Hell despite  "saying" we believe.   

Because you eventually read  the verse that if we do not follow even one Law of God we are guilty of breaking the whole Law,  of course who could follow the whole law? 

Then we read about the pharasees who may have indeed followed the letter of the law better than anyone imaginable. We find that their hearts we not worthy either.   So according to the "theology" that brings about a belief that there is a danger of "eternal" hell, we are ALL screwed.

Faith killer, yes indeed.

[Taffy]

.................because of course they are "leaders" so they inherantly are more "spiritual"   

Indeed, was Very much the case in the WWCG, and Dare you not believe them

[Shadowland]

What is ET?

Think of all in One....like the big bang theory in reverse?  Maybe like a White Hole....and Hell being the black hole.  What is not white is black.  Could it be this simple?

Everywhere in nature is a likeness as to God.

Ok think maybe I love my little grandson so very very very very much.....but I sure don't like some of the things he does(carnality)!
Take away the carnality and there is pure Love.

[Taffy]

What is ET?

I Know this..Please Miss can I?..... Can i? :cloud9:


Hes That Little Guy..the Extra Terrestrial, Kinda Cute.... :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

No silly . . .it's the Estimated Time it takes for you to go from heaven to hell when you lose your salvation. . . .DUH.

[Taffy]

Shucks Nat,
Estimated Time, of Course :thumbsup:

..I watch to many movies, then become too Easily convinced :bgdance:

[Shadowland]

How does one loose their salvation?

[WhiteWings]

How does one loose their salvation?

By achieving the impossible.
Outsmarting God for example....

[Nathan]

I'm guessing most on this board will agree that losing your salvation isn't an option as we've been taught it to be.  If my eternal end isn't left up to me, and if God's gifts are unreturnable . . .and salvation "is" a gift from God . . .then I'd have to say . . .you can't lose what's never lost.  When we learn that we didn't choose God, he chose us, then we'd also realize he didn't choose us recently, or because we finally acheived enough good deeds to get his attention to look our way, but that he chose before he created.  If my redemption was his will before I was born . .then what makes me think I could lose it in the first place?  Ah, the power of the mind . . .the most subtle beast in the field

[jabcat]

I'm still just enough Southern Baptist to believe the One Who has started a good work in us will finish it...the Author and Finisher of our salvation.  I also still believe though there's that specific time for all of us, either in this lifetime or the next, when He personally approaches us with His Spirit and we're "saved"...beginning to actively believe on Him, with the faith He provides...but again, as I understand, His call is irrevocable..we are sealed with His Spirit...God's blessing, James.

[Doc]

Lets Put this in perspective...before we get to carried away thinking what Truth IS.

Show me in the Scriptures, where its a Prerequisite to Come to the Understanding Of UR, which in Turn makes us More righteous, therfore SAVED...obviously, the More Truth, the More Righteous

Or did I miss Read In eph

What I was speaking of is Eternal Torment and to preach this is a faith killer.
I myself am not righteous at all and hope you didn't think I implied I was.
When I did believe in ET which I was taught in church I operated in fear.

To me that is a fundamental problem with fellowship in a eternal hell believing church.  If it is fellowship in a church we must not forsake, then there will be a conflict.  The idea behind typical church attendance is that when you decide to become a member of a church you make a general statement whether specific or implied that you agree to the doctrine of that church.

During the time I was studying and working through all of what eventually brought me to UR was the fact that you can go to all different kinds of churches and they will all teach a variation on how to know if your "really" saved.

So which one is correct?  I come to realize why so many people do not dig into study for themselves.  It's not that people don't, its they find so many things opposite of what they have heard in church and that scares them.  They fall back upon the words that carefully instruct you to listen to the "leaders" of the church, so, many feel that they are being deceived when they read in scripture and see something so opposite.  Of course then they go to the leaders of the church who "nurture" and "guide" you back to the faith, because of course they are "leaders" so they inherantly are more "spiritual"   :Yeahright:

It's scary to stand in a group of "christians" that believe in an eternal hell and start implying that what they believe is a lie.   It's also scary to contemplate all these teachings about salvation and realize that if Traditional Christianity is right then most of us are going to Hell despite  "saying" we believe.   

Because you eventually read  the verse that if we do not follow even one Law of God we are guilty of breaking the whole Law,  of course who could follow the whole law? 

Then we read about the pharasees who may have indeed followed the letter of the law better than anyone imaginable. We find that their hearts we not worthy either.   So according to the "theology" that brings about a belief that there is a danger of "eternal" hell, we are ALL screwed.

Faith killer, yes indeed.

It's scary to stand in a group of "christians" that believe in an eternal hell and start implying that what they believe is a lie.   It's also scary to contemplate all these teachings about salvation and realize that if Traditional Christianity is right then most of us are going to Hell despite  "saying" we believe.

Paul; I have a friend (that I'd been talking to about UR) in our Sunday school class do what you just mentioned here. You should have seen the reaction. (I wasn't there that week) There were audible gasps and immediate statements of disagreement with what he said regarding the concept of true justice pointing toward UR. Funny thing is, he's the only member of our class that has any 'degreed' Theological education.

[alihaymeg]

Being lobotomized in order to remove memories of lost souls?
That is the most heretical thing I've ever heard.
We are His children, not lab rats.

[bobbys43]

Does anyone feel this way?

It's quite a difficult thing to try to describe this and that makes things so frustrating.  It's like if suffering exists for some we could not be happy.  If suffering exists for one person do we not suffer with them?  I read article after article of people trying to say that eternal hell is real and that its biblical and that we should believe in it.  These people do not understand.  Of course they don't understand that it's NOT BIBLICAL but they also don't understand that if what they're saying is true it destroys all hope for all people.  It's like if one person goes to hell forever I would know they're suffering torment and therefore I in turn would be in torment.  If you have just any feelings for the lost and believed they're fate is eternal torture then how could you possibly go from day to day.  Why not go insane?  Why not lie in bed constantly barely able to function?  It's what should happen if that person TRULY believes in eternal conscious punishment.  But no, they go throughout their day, talk about their new car they just got, go out to dinner and laugh and tell stories.  The truth is, the doctrine of eternal hell makes people selfish because the only way to cope with it is to think "it's not going to happen to me so why worry".  You have to forget about the fact that when you come face to face with a lost soul, you could've been them.  Does anyone else here believe that it is now impossible for them to believe in the false doctrine of eternal punishment?

Thankfully, the Bible speaks of universal salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

I'm sorry if I may have been venting with this post.  Truth is I thought about posting it on the prayer boards but decided against that.  Still I could use your prayers as today i've been really sad and frustrated because of what is being taught in the majority of churches.  That is the doctrine of eternal punishment in hell.  I hate that doctrine.

I understand your feelings and thoughts on this very question. it seems to me that most people are very selfish these days. It is all about them, and I am guilty of this myself at times and more than I would like to admit.

I have been in different churches throught my life and it seems most christians take pleasure in knowing that some will get their come upens. I know I thought that myself and yet was terrified of the thought of hell,but not for others only for me. Oh yes we would go out on visitation to win souls and I really only did that out of obedience for me than really caring for those we visited. That was not only selfish but down right stupid.

Jesus loves all of mankind regardless of what they have done and that is hard for some of us to realize and accept. I still have a problem with that to this day and I want to love like He loves. I just need to let Him do His work me instead of kicking and screaming the whole way. I personally make it harder than it should be and I believe that othwers may have this same problem.

By the way I am new here and this is my first post that caught my eye and my first real response. Thank you.

bobby

[MacPherson]

I think for most people there's a mental wall that keeps them from suffering over others who are suffering. I think a lot of us who come here either don't have that wall, or the wall crumbled. There are thousands of people in this world right now, who are in agony one way or another. Do any of us really suffer because of it? Oh sure, if a particular individual is placed before us one way or another, we feel compassion for that person. And we do say "there but for the grace of God go I". But do we actually suffer with those who suffer, since we don't know who 99.9% of them are? Me, I'm healthy and vital. I don't suffer from chronic pain or have any infirmities. I live in the lap of luxury. I'm considered poor by American standards. But I just crawled out of my nice soft warm bed. I'm leisurely sitting in my warm apartment, typing on my personal computer. I just grabbed good food which I have in ample supply for breakfast. I'm going to enjoy a nice warm shower, in a few minutes and put on clean clothes. Meanwhile there are thousands of people huddled in alleyways, sleeping in filth, getting ready to spend their day digging through the garbage.
Do I feel sorry for them? Sure. Do I try to help some of them? Sure. Do I suffer because they suffer? No, not really. Do I say to God, "why are you doing this to these people?" No.