God doesn't want some people to be saved?

[Mark Christopher]

"He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." John 12:40

A lot of people have trouble with is verse in which Jesus is quoting Isaiah 6:10. There's another version which reads "that they should turn and be saved". Or they use it as a "God is cruel" excuse for apostasy and atheism.

I'd like to hear some explanations of this, to better increase my comprehension, to help others when this comes up (which is fairly often).

Thanks

[jabcat]

Excellent, and IMO, VERY important question.  Part of the God turning all to disobedience, so He may have mercy on all.

I believe it's all in God's time...He's choosing some now that He is using and will use in special ways...in large part, to bring the rest of humanity in and to rule the nations..."Savior of all men, especially of those believing"...especially means set aside for a specific purpose.  He has plans for the ages...Israel is (generally) blinded and will not come in (in fullness, the nation as a whole) "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in"...then "all Israel will be saved"...all this leading up to God being "all in all"...To me that's part of the mystery that began to dawn on me shortly after God showing me UR, and it ties into all eventually being reconciled...He's not doing it all now...I call it God's Big Plan...there are stages/steps in the ages that mainstream has not seen...they think it's "live this life, then heaven or hell forever"...thankfully God's up to much more than that...Ultimate Reconciliation!  There's nothing He will lose!   :notworthy:.  God's blessing, James.

[martincisneros]

John 12:34 says they were blinded through false doctrine.  Matthew 13:19 says that when someone doesn't understand the Word of the Kingdom that it's Satan that steals the Word that's sown in them.  2Corinthians 4 indicates that Satan has blinded the minds of unbelievers.  The Isaiah 6:10 reference, in context, is what the prophet was to speak over them.  Sorta like when Ezekiel spoke to the valley of dry bones, not all things that are said either to or over a crowd are directly to that crowd.  Job was in the power of Satan because of his fear and God wasn't going to lie about it.  The Scriptures say that Satan goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.  Whom he may devour.  And again, it's when people don't understand the Word of the Kingdom that Satan steals it, according to Matthew 13:19.  Mark 4:24-25 says that it'll be EXACTLY as YOU measure it, and if you don't have ears to hear then even what you have will be taken away.  By whom? 

John 10:10 in contrasting the devil with Christ Jesus says that the thief cometh not but for to steal, kill, and to destroy, but I am come that they might have life and have it more abundantly.  And Jesus said that those that have seen Him have seen the Father.  Matthew 13:10-15 indicates to me that Jesus was speaking in parables, otherwise they wouldn't ever get it.  People were going to get it in parables that wouldn't have gotten it any other way.  Good teachers do that.  Bad ones don't and say that a Good teacher is just trying to keep me ignorant.  Different people experience different stages of the Word at different stages of the growth of the Word of God.  That's the whole reason for the parable of the sower in Matthew 13, Mark 4, and Luke 8.  GOD IS NOT ANYONE'S PROBLEM!!

[rosered]

  this is weird cause I just  read thios in  a message bible , I  do not fully agree with the messgae bible , but it does clarify  pretty good  in modern day terms 
see if helps you  ok ? 35-36Jesus said, "For a brief time still, the light is among you. Walk by the light you have so darkness doesn't destroy you. If you walk in darkness, you don't know where you're going. As you have the light, believe in the light. Then the light will be within you, and shining through your lives. You'll be children of light."

Their Eyes Are Blinded
36-40Jesus said all this, and then went into hiding. All these God-signs he had given them and they still didn't get it, still wouldn't trust him. This proved that the prophet Isaiah was right:
   God, who believed what we preached?

   Who recognized God's arm, outstretched and ready to act?
First they wouldn't believe, then they couldn't—again, just as Isaiah said:

   Their eyes are blinded,
      their hearts are hardened,
   So that they wouldn't see with their eyes
      and perceive with their hearts,
   And turn to me, God,
      so I could heal them.
41Isaiah said these things after he got a glimpse of God's cascading brightness that would pour through the Messiah.

42-43On the other hand, a considerable number from the ranks of the leaders did believe. But because of the Pharisees, they didn't come out in the open with it. They were afraid of getting kicked out of the meeting place. When push came to shove they cared more for human approval than for God's glory.


  there is also another place Isaiah is quoted , see how easy this is to grasp , it helped me  to simplify
Matt 13 .............

Why Tell Stories?
10The disciples came up and asked, "Why do you tell stories?"
11-15He replied, "You've been given insight into God's kingdom. You know how it works. Not everybody has this gift, this insight;

it hasn't been given to them.
Whenever someone has a ready heart for this,
  the insights and understandings flow freely.
  But if there is no readiness, any trace of receptivity soon disappears.
That's why I tell stories:
  to create readiness, to nudge the people toward receptive insight. In their present state they can stare till doomsday and not see it, listen till they're blue in the face and not get it. I don't want Isaiah's forecast repeated all over again:
   Your ears are open but you don't hear a thing.
      Your eyes are awake but you don't see a thing.
   The people are blockheads!
   They stick their fingers in their ears
      so they won't have to listen;
   They screw their eyes shut
      so they won't have to look,
      so they won't have to deal with me face-to-face
      and let me heal them. [/u]
16-17"But you have God-blessed eyes—eyes that see! And God-blessed ears—ears that hear! A lot of people, prophets and humble believers among them, would have given anything to see what you are seeing, to hear what you are hearing, but never had the chance.

  I dont see it as  negative now  as I once did , nor as  confusing 

  God bless you in your searching

[Mark Christopher]

I caught part of something the other day talking about the veil God has placed over Israel, and how people keep forgetting the veil, and that God will remove it in the last days. That made me first think of Isaiah 6:10, and then Romans 11:26, where we see all Israel shall be saved.

[jabcat]

Yep.  IMO, I need to take God at his word/Word, and allow it to change me and my opinion, not try to change it to fit what seems to make sense to me.  God has every right to veil and reveal as He sees fit, and He'll do it just right.  I see an inch ahead (if that much  :bigGrin:)...He sees from the "beginning" to the "end".  God's blessing, James.

[claypot]

"He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." John 12:40

I tend to believe that God is showing us what is going on within each of us. So what is this saying?

I think God made us one way only to be transformed into something different. We start out a living soul and end up a life giving spirit. What is this saying? We have the unique opportunity to be involved in our own salvation, our own progress from mortal to immortality, from natural to spiritual.

In a sense we start out with blind eyes and a hard heart, at least compared to the spiritual eyes and heart we end up with. When we are converted God does heal us for that is what God's conversion for us is.

cp

[Pierac]

"He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." John 12:40

A lot of people have trouble with is verse in which Jesus is quoting Isaiah 6:10. There's another version which reads "that they should turn and be saved". Or they use it as a "God is cruel" excuse for apostasy and atheism.

I'd like to hear some explanations of this, to better increase my comprehension, to help others when this comes up (which is fairly often).

Thanks

He says, "The kingdom of God comes not with observation.  Neither do they say, look here!  Or, look there!  For, behold the kingdom of God is within you."  Now, who will not interpret the words "within you" to mean in your hand, within your power?  That is, if you hear and do the commandment of God.  Tertullian

On account of the goodness and faithfulness that he displayed towards God own earth, there was given to Him a kingdom, and glory, and dominion.  And all peoples, tribes, and languages will serve Him... And this is understood in two ways.  First, even now He has an everlasting dominion- when [people of] all nations and languages adore His name, confess His majesty, follow His teaching, and imitate His goodness.... Second, when he comes again with majesty and glory to judge every soul and to restore the righteous to life, then He will truly have the dominion of the whole earth. Lactantius

Trypho: Do you really admit that this place Jerusalem shall be rebuilt?  And do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the patriarchs...?

Justin: I and many others are of that opinion, and believe that this will take place, as you are assuredly aware... Moreover I point out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical and foolish... I chose to follow not men or men's teachings, but God and the doctrines delivered by Him.  For it you have fallen with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit the truth of the resurrection... who say that there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls when they die are taken into heaven, do not imagine that they are Christians... but I and others who are right-minded Christians on all points are sure that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah and others declare... we have perceived, moreover, that the expression, "the Day of the Lord" is connected with this subject.  And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the Apostles of Christ, who prophesied by a revelation that was made to him that those who believe in our Christ would dwell at thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general and the eternal resurrection of all men would take place.
Justin Martyr

It would appear some early Christians believe the "Gospel of the Kingdom" related to this glorious future reign of God on earth, through His appointed Messiah.  Some early Christians believed God had destined that they "reign upon the earth" with the Messiah (Rev 5:10).  And all who joined Jesus in repentance and faith would be the elite of this final world order, entitled to the highest honors because of their loyalty to him in this present world.  To some early Christians the gospel of "salvation" related to the reality of God's promise future of a renewed earth.  To "be saved" meant being preserved in the day of messianic judgment, and being entitled to reign with the Messiah in his terrestrial (earthly) kingdom.  So why did they believe differently from most churches today?

Paul