Anyone who don't know God, read Job.

[IceDash]

It clearly said that God does everything in the universe, he said that he made nation great and then later, destoryed.

It perfectly clear that we don't make the nation great, for example, God made New York a great city, then one day it's his choose to make it the worst or destory it, doesn't matter if the city is not evil, it's his choose, he also said that he control the star, gravity, the womb of the baby, the animals, and including us, make it look like he the puppetmaster, Job was angry at God (clearly stated said that) and wanna know why he was punish for no reason, he didn't lose faith in God because he know that God will punish Job or banish job because of fear of losing faith in God, so he want God to tell him why he was punish

It's does look like Satan won the bet! Remember what the bet was? The bet was Satan told God that Job faith in him and Job a perfect guy because he rich and he never have any problem and if you strike him, he will lose faith in you so God said sure, go ahead and see what Job gonna do but don't kill him, so satan want job to lose faith but it's didn;t work because Job very well knew that if he lose faith, it's over for Job. It's look like Satan won the bet, because Job was complaining to god for not losing faith but wanting to know why!

Turn out God is way too powerful and way too much knowledge for poor little puny guy to handle and he said "I won't said it again for my mouth is cover!"

Interesting through, God wasn't angry at Job for complaining, but angry at the three priester who is Job's friend telling Job who is God is:

He is just
He never change
He get mad at people saying wicked thing at God
God punish who is wicked

now, God was mad at them because God said "I am angry at you for not telling the truth about me for what Job is telling the truth about me"


now....that is strange, what's truth is he taking about?


remember what jesus said: "The truth shall set you free"

free from what? god's control? sins? jesus never fully explain what he talking about "truth" is? I look for it and everyone telling me in church and the internet said:

"it's mean you are free of sin!" We still sinning!
"It's mean you shall know God better!" Then why confusing?!
"It's mean about the gospel!" yeah, which?!
"It's about jesus's death" it's isn't about us, we still dead and rise, that's not setting us free, it getting back home, that's differant!
"It's mean about trying to be a new creature" well, we are but we still the same!

It's look like the truth isn't out yet, not even you guys can figure the truth out

My point is: I don't want people telling me "the holy spirit told me" because I think it's a joke because I never felt the holy spirit talkin to me or healin me for almost ever I ahve faith in god, I love God so much, how come you people kepp sayin' "God told me" or "holy spirit told me" you guy need to stop playin game and be honest because I hate faker and false prophet because of "god told me" You just want God to talk to you, I can't force God or spirit to talk to me.

[WhiteWings]

iD,

I'm not arguing with you; just stating posts like this confuse me.

God can control everything including good and evil.
From your post I understand He does so.
If evil deeds are controled by God how can they be bad?
Or better said if God decides some evil needs to be done how can anyone stop it?
But God also states (in the Bible) He doesn't like evil.
Especially in OT I read God punished His people (nation) when they fell away.

It perfectly clear that we don't make the nation great, for example, God made New York a great city, then one day it's his choose to make it the worst or destory it, doesn't matter if the city is not evil, it's his choose,

Let's give that city a name: Sodom.
Made great (and sinful) and destroyed for the way it was made.

Can you explain how you handle that 'contradiction' ?

[IceDash]

yeah, it doesn't make sense if God punish people for something they don't know better, we just can't understand everything, and the bible explain that God made us dumb so we can't understand, it still doesn't make sense that way.

[martincisneros]

My point is: I don't want people telling me "the holy spirit told me" because I think it's a joke because I never felt the holy spirit talkin to me or healin me for almost ever I ahve faith in god, I love God so much, how come you people kepp sayin' "God told me" or "holy spirit told me" you guy need to stop playin game and be honest because I hate faker and false prophet because of "god told me" You just want God to talk to you, I can't force God or spirit to talk to me.

I am genuinely sorry that you've never been around people before with solid relationships with the Lord, but I won't apologize for mine just because you don't understand and just because you haven't experienced it before -- all the while, being one of the loudest these days about God being able to do what He wants.  And I'm sorry that you don't know Him yet as Daddy.  My God is my Daddy.  We do things together every single day.  You'll never experience that while you're offended. Romans 8 and Galatians 4 call Him Daddy, though. If you won't hear these verses, you won't hear all of the others that can be brought up on this. 

And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. (John 10:4)

25"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. (John 16:25 -- time is now, check out the whole chapter, as He's talking about after His ascension.  Following chapter goes on to talk about Him giving us the glory so that we'll know as we're known.  Ephesians 3:14-21 for a second witness on this.)

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Romans 8:14)

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ. (1Corinthians 2:10-16 Did you notice verse 13 above where the Holy Spirit teaches?)

19My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, (Galatians 4:19 -- did Jesus know the voice of His Father?  St. Paul didn't spend the rest of his life travailing.)

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: No ID, you can't make God talk to you, but you can ask Him to. Start by asking, ask Him to give you His wisdom. Then get in His Word every day and spend time with Him. Ask Him to baptize you in His Spirit.

Pick that topic and read every scripture you can associated with it. Meditate on it. And one day you'll find that you had a thought, that was not your thought, that connected some OTHER scriptures together with the ones you picked out.

THAT is how God began to speak to me. That thought is the still, small voice. Over time, and with enough "thoughts", you'll get better at recognizing His thoughts from yours. That's the "inspiration" of the Spirit. He literally breathes something into you, He gives you a breath, a respiration. Blessings...

And the Word will bear it witness, if it's a God thought, even if you yourself don't understand it yet completely.

[martincisneros]

19My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, (Galatians 4:19 -- did Jesus know the voice of His Father?  St. Paul didn't spend the rest of his life travailing.)

I wanted to add something here clarifying how I know that St. Paul didn't spend the rest of his life travailing, but received the petition he'd asked that was according to Father's will, according to everything in the New Covenant, including Romans 8 about being conformed to the image of Christ.  I said that St. Paul wasn't travailing for the rest of his life over this with the Galatians.  How can we know this?  2Timothy 4 is how, with his indications that he didn't leave anything unfinished of all of Christ's will for his life.  And many Bible students have believed that that was the last thing that he wrote.  Even if he wound up writing another epistle after that, that doesn't take away from what I'm saying 'cause it would still mean that by at least 2Timothy 4 he'd concluded his intercessions for the Church of Galatia that as 1John 4:17 says, as Christ is, so were they in this world. 

Christ knows the voice of His Father, and so do many of us.  It's not an exclusive club or anything like that.  I'm not setting myself up as superior to you if I happen to say that God told me something that day that He hadn't told you.  It's where we're all growing to.  He's your Daddy too, and the Daddy of everybody that'll ever read this.  Cardinal gave you really good advise on how to start plugging in.  I've got various comments throughout the boards on how I've personally fine-tuned my own hearing.  Isaiah 58 is a part of what I haven't said a lot about around here.  That chapter describes the fast that God has chosen, where you take the money for the food that you would have eaten that day and give it as a seed, and then it says to avoid pointing accusatory fingers, and it gives other things to do, including what Cardinal was talking about in feeding on your covenant heritage in Christ.  And Isaiah 58 says that when this is your lifestyle, then you'll call out and the Lord will immediately say "I'm right here!" 

And of course, everybody's got their joke about the difference between our 'immediately' and the Lord's 'immediately.'  But the promises are sincerely all over the Bible and I'm not being a smart aleck about it.  Psalm 91 is another one where it says that you'll call upon Him and He'll answer you.  It's just something to be made aware of, and like faith, love, wisdom, and everything else in the Kingdom, it's simply something you grow into.  A larger branch can have more sap from the vine.  Simple as that.  He's the vine and we're the branches according to the Gospel of John.

[IceDash]

I am getting tried of hyprocrites, really, martin, you said that you memrozied all job's bible verse, really? What it said on 17:7? what did it said "WITHOUT CHEATING!" I mean it, you said You memorized all of it, really? Don't play game with ego, I really sick and tired of people think they can memorized all of it, until they didn't trust themselve and check out what it really said, don't cheat by looking in the bible or computer, you better guess it right because I really hate fakers.

[peacemaker]

Isaiah 58 is a part of what I haven't said a lot about around here.  That chapter describes the fast that God has chosen, where you take the money for the food that you would have eaten that day and give it as a seed, and then it says to avoid pointing accusatory fingers, and it gives other things to do, including what Cardinal was talking about in feeding on your covenant heritage in Christ.  And Isaiah 58 says that when this is your lifestyle, then you'll call out and the Lord will immediately say "I'm right here!" 

"Is this not the fast which I choose, To loosen the bonds of wickedness, To undo the bands of the yoke, letting the oppressed go free by breaking every yoke?" (Isaiah 58:6)

"Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry, bringing the homeless poor into the house; When you see the naked, to cover him; And not to hide yourself from your own flesh?" (verse 7)

Bread

3899 lechem lekh'-em from 3898; food (for man or beast), especially bread, or grain (for making it):-- ((shew-)) bread, X eat, food, fruit, loaf, meat, victuals. See also 1036.

3898 lacham law-kham' a primitive root; to feed on; figuratively, to consume; by implication, to battle (as destruction):--devour, eat, X ever, fight (-ing), overcome, prevail, (make) war (-ring).

1036 Beyth l-`Aphrah bayth le-af-raw' from 1004 and the feminine of 6083 (with preposition interposed); house to (i.e. of) dust; Beth-le-Aphrah, a place in Palestine:--house of Aphrah.

1004 bayith bah'-yith probably from 1129 abbreviated; a house (in the greatest variation of applications, especially family, etc.):--court, daughter, door, + dungeon, family, + forth of, X great as would contain, hangings, home(born), (winter) house (-hold), inside (-ward), palace, place, + prison, + steward, + tablet, temple, web, + within (-out).

6083 `aphar aw-fawr' from 6080; dust (as powdered or gray); hence, clay, earth, mud:--ashes, dust, earth, ground, mortar, powder, rubbish.

6080 `aphar aw-far' : a primitive root: meaning either to be gray or perhaps rather to pulverize; used only as denominative from 6083, to be dust:--cast (dust).

Divide

6563 pereq peh'-rek from 6561; rapine; also a fork (in roads):--crossway, robbery.

RAPINE – TO SEIZE, the CARRYING OFF of ANOTHER'S PROPERTY; PLUNDER.

6561 paraq paw-rak' a primitive root; to break off or crunch; figuratively, to deliver:--break (off), deliver, redeem, rend (in pieces), tear in pieces.

Hungry

7437 Ramath Lechiy raw'-math lekh'-ee from 7413 and 3895; height of a jaw-bone; Ramath-Lechi, a place in Palestine:--Ramath-lehi.

3895 lchiy lekh-ee' from an unused root meaning to be soft; the cheek (from its fleshiness); hence, the jaw-bone:--cheek (bone), jaw (bone).

7413 ramah raw-maw' feminine active participle of 7311; a height (as a seat of idolatry):--high place.

7311 ruwm room a primitive root; to be high actively, to rise or raise (in various applications, literally or figuratively):--bring up, exalt (self), extol, give, go up, haughty, heave (up), (be, lift up on, make on, set up on, too) high (-er, one), hold up, levy, lift (-er) up, (be) lofty, (X a-) loud, mount up, offer (up), + presumptuously, (be) promote(-ion), proud, set up, tall (-er), take (away, off, up), breed worms.

Yoke

4133 mowtah mo-taw' feminine of 4132; a pole; by implication, an ox-bow; hence, a yoke (either literal or figurative):--bands, heavy, staves, yoke.

STAVES – a group of persons, (staff) charged with carrying out the work of an establishment or executing some undertaking; a body of officers without command authority, appointed to assist a commanding officer.

4132 mowt mote from 4131; a wavering, i.e. fall; by implication, a pole (as shaking); hence, a yoke (as essentially a bent pole):--bar, be moved, staff, yoke.

4131 mowt mote a primitive root; to waver; by implication , to slip, shake, fall:--be carried, cast, be out of course, be fallen in decay, X exceedingly, fall (-ing down), be (re-) moved, be ready, shake, slide, slip.

Must have missed, OR mis-read something ... Money seed?

peacemaker

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: ID, I didn't have anyone to teach me these things I'm sharing. I had no idea how the gifts were to operate, how to hear Him, or anything else. I fasted at least one day a week, read the Word for hours every day, prayed and asked Him every time I cracked the Book to teach me.

No good man would help bring a child into the world, then go off and leave it and never speak to it again. Man is not more righteous than God, and He didn't birth us into the Kingdom and then never speak to us again.

But my from personal experience, I can tell you that He speaks to you through the Word first, basically repeating what you have read at appropriate times if you have been obedient to take it in. The Word is what you have initially to compare what is spoken to you, with.

Then as you mature in the hearing of His voice, He can begin to speak to you without speaking verbatim scripture, because you know His voice and are not easily moved. My "skills" in this area were honed with praying for people individually in bible studies, every week. They were my "gift guinea pigs!"

I prayed for them, learning how to wait upon the Lord. And He tested me. One week, He might outdo Himself in word of knowledge; the next week I would be tested to see if I would get in my flesh and speak something I wasn't 100%, beat it out of me, sure of. I took it as a serious responsibility, not something to play with, and was as sure as I knew how to be, that I spoke only what I heard or perceived thru the Spirit.

These are the steps I had to walk out. My  :2c: Blessings.....

[martincisneros]

I am getting tried of hyprocrites, really, martin, you said that you memrozied all job's bible verse, really? What it said on 17:7? what did it said "WITHOUT CHEATING!" I mean it, you said You memorized all of it, really? Don't play game with ego, I really sick and tired of people think they can memorized all of it, until they didn't trust themselve and check out what it really said, don't cheat by looking in the bible or computer, you better guess it right because I really hate fakers.

My time in the Word is absolutely nobody's business but mine, my Lord's, and my future wife's (1Corinthians 7:32-35), if that day ever comes.  I'm not a hypocrite.  Synesthetic perhaps/probably.  It's simply a matter of absolutely all of God's grace abounding towards me without limitation or hindrance.  You'd never be satisfied, but on the verse you asked about, all from memory, I promise:

Therefore hath mine eye become dim from vexation, and, my members, are like a shadow, all of them. (Rotherham's)

My eye has also grown dim because of grief, And all my members are as a shadow. (NASB)

My eye also is dim by reason of sorrow, and all my members are as a shade. (Websters)

And mine eye is dim by reason of grief, and all my members are as a shadow. (Darby)

And dim from sorrow is mine eye, And my members as a shadow all of them. (Young's)

Mine eye also is dim by reason of sorrow, And all my members are as a shadow. (ASV)

My eye is dim because of anger, and all my senses are like a shadow. (Pecrapta Lamsa)

My eye also is dim by reason of sorrow. All my members are as a shadow. (Hebrew Names Version of WEB)

I am nearly blind with grief, my limbs reduced to a shadow. (Complete Jewish Bible)

My eye has grown dim because of grief, and all my members are [wasted away] like a shadow. (Amplified)

And my eye is dim from grief; and all my members are like a shadow. (Green's Literal)

My eyes have grown dim from grief, and my whole body has become but a shadow. (Holman Christian Standard)

My eyes are dim with weeping, and I am but a shadow of my former self. (New Living)

Mine eye also is dim by reason of sorrow, and all my members are as a shadow. (KJV)

My eye has also grown dim because of sorrow, And all my members are like shadows. (NKJV)

My eye is dim through indignation, and my limbs are brought as it were to nothing. (Douay Rheims)

Mis ojos se oscurecen también por el sufrimiento, y mis miembros todos son como una sombra. (Biblia de las Américas)

Mine eye therefore is dimme for griefe, and all my strength is like a shadowe. (Geneva)

Myn iye dasewide at indignacioun; and my membris ben dryuun as in to nouyt. (Wycliffe)

caligavit ab indignatione oculus meus et membra mea quasi in nihili redacta sunt (Vulgate)

Mine eye also is dimmed by reason of vexation, and all my members are as a shadow. (JPS OT)


And I could go on and on from memory, but you wouldn't believe from even one translation that I could quote it at random without your being in front of me to see me do it, so your question was sorta pointless and meant from an evil heart to try to impugn my integrity or because by it you thought you proved anything irrespective of whatever I said.  But, I was in a good mood, so I indulged your curiosity on the memory issue; on the game you wanted to play.

[sparrow]

And I could go on and on from memory, but you wouldn't believe from even one translation that I could quote it at random without your being in front of me to see me do it, so your question was sorta pointless and meant from an evil heart to try to impugn my integrity or because by it you thought you proved anything irrespective of whatever I said.  But, I was in a good mood, so I indulged your curiosity on the memory issue; on the game you wanted to play.

Martin... did you just read what you wrote?
an "EVIL" heart...?

I think you owe IceDash an apology.


If he is frustrated with something, then someone who claims to have "no carnality" should have looked past that frustration, and responded in a kinder, gentler way. Maybe tried to understand why he is seeing you in a certain way. When someone gets upset at me, it's difficult, but shouldn't our response be kindness and try to figure out why this person sees something...perhaps it is something that I fail to see and maybe SHOULD see.

We are ALL brothers and sisters here.
To say an "EVIL HEART" is not a very nice thing.

No-one here has an evil heart and I think it was a rather unkind thing to say.

Just had to voice that...

[martincisneros]

I took it as a serious responsibility, not something to play with, and was as sure as I knew how to be, that I spoke only what I heard or perceived thru the Spirit.

Amen to the entire post that Cardinal made.  She pretty much described the 1990s and the first five years of this decade that I had with working out my salvation with reverence and awe.  The problem with seeing someone right now that's sensitive to hearing Him is not knowing the true story on the years spent to get there.  What gets to me is the implication sometimes of some prophets that new converts will necessarily hear Him as clearly as they do.  That's where I wanna grab 'em and shake 'em and remind them that even if they can discern everything He ever said to them, in 20/20 hindsight, during their first few years/decades of discipleship to the Word and the Holy Spirit, doesn't mean they weren't rolling around in agony back then totally full of doubts that they ever heard from Him, that they'd ever be able to obey Him, that they'd ever be able to hear Him, etc. 

Some folks do hear Him with great clarity before and after their conversion to Christ, but if I went through a list of what their natural characteristics likely were, it would be very discouraging for most people that aren't sure if they'll ever get there with a ton of fasting, and doing nothing but listening to Bible CDs for the rest of their lives.  Usually like everything else in the Kingdom, to get it where Christ wants it at the hundredfold, it's going to be a laborious process of pulling weeds from their hearts and planting that good seed of the Kingdom and daily watering it with their thanksgiving, worship, generocity, and obedience to the tiniest nudges to act on particular principles of the Scriptures moment by moment as they occur to them and as the situation would indicate that that particular good treasure of the Word treasured up in their hearts would be applicable. 

I can find everything that I ever say in the Written Word, although it would be a very laborious Bible study if you wanted to know what I'm tying together with what with relation to the High Priestly ministry of Jesus, seed faith, and everything else that I'd say.  So, I usually just say it without the Biblical math equation and say pray and study the Word on your own, and make note of anything in particular that I draw attention to in the Scriptures as land marker passages such as Mark 4, John 10:10, Mark 11, Colossians 3:17, etc.  One of the reasons why I can find everything that I ever say in the Written Word is because I've been in full time ministry since the fall of '92 and much of what I'll say from the Word is material I've already shared dozens of times as my understanding of the Scriptures was evolving with each thing that the Lord would show me along the way, whether through my own studies or any relevant reaping a hundredfold harvest seminars that I've attended with other Bible teachers. 

I don't depart from the subjects that have gotten me thus far and what took me from the spiritual nursery to some degree of proficiency and maturity in Christ.  So, although something may be new to you of what I say, I'm very often sharing something that countless Bibles have had countless notes scribbled into the margins about as tons of highlighters have been worn out as I've read and read and read and reread some more all of the Scriptures that I'll mention or allude to.  I try to avoid sensationalism when I'm sharing principles of the Kingdom by trying to avoid when you'll see such and such that the Father has obviously put in His own power, and I'll simply try to focus on the very principles and disciplines of the Scriptures that are meant to get you from where you're at to where you're walking more closely with your heavenly Father and His plan for your life. 

I'm not presuming to know what that plan is for each individual, but all of it -- whatever it is -- is going to grow out of the discipleship principles of the New Testament where the Bible is pointing to the exact same thing for each of us, namely, conformity to the image of Christ Jesus as Romans 8, Galatians 4, Ephesians 4, and numerous other passages will clearly say.  The Bible is clear that we're not to be conformed to this world (Romans 12, 2Peter 1, Hebrews 5, et. al.), but are to be transformed by the renewing of our mind and the presenting of our bodies as a living sacrifice before the Lord.  That's the perfect will of God for each individual.  That's what I personally focus on the most as a necessary step-by-step to all that the Bible is telling all of us about the end intended by the Lord. 

The Scriptures say where we're heading, and it also says how we're to get there.  And yes, I agree with you 100% that it'll give us picture after picture of people that died in the wilderness without having obtained the promise, but the Scriptures say that we've moved into the eras where we're supposed to be seeing the reheading of all things in Christ, particularly as we obey all of the things that the Lord said were necessary precursors to Him doing what He's going to do.  When He was raised from the dead, He began outlining an agenda of personal development and global discipleship in what He said and in what He had the Apostles write later.  He breathed life into them, retold them everything He'd told them, sent them on their way, and told them what they and each succeeding generation of believers could expect, as each of us obeys Him, leading up to the time of His bodily return.

He said that the times and the seasons of God's government in the earth were in God's hands, but in the meantime, we're supposed to go and take it all over with teaching and training so that we can present every man perfect in Christ Jesus with the superhuman energy which He's ready to so powerfully work within us as we listen and obey to what He's already said and how He'll guide us based upon that each step along the way.  The New Testament describes progressive reordering of all things under the administration of the preaching of the Gospel and the operations of the Holy Spirit through the Church as we follow Him in Word and Spirit with ever increasing closeness and accuracy.  It does say quite a bit of crap will hit the fan along the way.  But the Scriptures do say that the Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of our Lord's and of His Christ's.  And in saying that, it's not talking about His return, but the progress of the preaching of the Gospel as nation after nation falls before His progressing army of believers that are illuminated by His Word and His Spirit with the plans and purposes of His heart.

Many other details are in the New Testament that I've already gotten into introductory details of elsewhere with regards to specific ministry gifts placed within the Body by Christ with each passing generation and their place in the preparation of each believer for every good work.  The New Testament is an eastern book and is very deliberate about a sensei type of relationship even if some haven't perceived that yet.  Think Mr Miyagi if the word sensei doesn't click for you, or the elder Zorro in the Mask of Zorro movie.  Biblical examples include St. Paul's descriptions of the Churches and individuals he'd minister to in his epistles where he'd refer to himself as having fathered them each step along the way into God's plan for their lives (ex: 1Corinthians 4).  A lot of Universalists will deny that aspect of the New Testament, but that's why their lives aren't working any better than they are 'cause Ephesians 4 and elsewhere describes the whole body as interdependent until we're all one soul in Christ.  Peter and John used the same language with regards to their relationship to those that they'd ministered to for many years.

In saying that, I'm not making myself out to be anybody's accountability around here.  Hasn't been time for me to give birth to that aspect of my ministry.  That should be abundantly obvious with nobody doing what I tell 'em to do. :tongue:  But, :laugh2: just because my own ministry isn't at that stage of respect in the Kingdom doesn't mean that other ministries aren't there or that anybody's out of order for mentioning any lineage that God Providentially used in the development of their lives and anointings for His service.  Some people just honestly are, Biblically, fulfilling more advanced roles in His service than others.  They were faithful in few things, so they've become 11 talent believers, or have been given charge over 10 cities, etc.  You don't have to know everybody's story to know whether or not each one is legit.  That's where many people get in serious trouble with the Holy Spirit and regarding their own inheritance is by trying to be the Head of the Body. 

All that's important is for you to understand from the Scriptures is God's faithfulness and passionate love for each individual, His plan in Christ for reheading all things in Him, and at your leisure, when you're the hungriest to know how He's doing these things, then spend some time meditating day and night in the Scriptures of the New Testament carefully separating process from outcome in everything that you're reading and realize that the New Testament describes everything that God is doing in the earth as the planting, careful protection and cultivation of, and reaping of crops -- from His Word, to His Son, to each drop of Blood that's been shed as Creation's natural fertilizer, to everything that we do and everything that we have that He wants activated in His service and for us to constantly be abounding in with each of His graces (2Corinthians 8) where He wants all of our giving and all of our receiving to constantly be abounding by hundreds and hundreds of times according to all of the hundredfold and beyond principles that He's outlined for us in the Scriptures.  If you don't understand a seed of the Kingdom in the Scriptures, perhaps you're looking at a husk, fertilizer, water, or something else if not specifically light and abundance of romance in the particular instance that you're considering in the Scriptures.

[martincisneros]

Sparrow, I love you more than you could ever possibly understand.  But I do tread softly on all of the details of my heart.  What I said was in the New Testament and as the New Testament characters and authors would use it.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen to what you said in the above post Martin, but this part especially......

Martin said,

"The problem with seeing someone right now that's sensitive to hearing Him is not knowing the true story on the years spent to get there.  What gets to me is the implication sometimes of some prophets that new converts will necessarily hear Him as clearly as they do.  That's where I wanna grab 'em and shake 'em and remind them that even if they can discern everything He ever said to them, in 20/20 hindsight, during their first few years/decades of discipleship to the Word and the Holy Spirit, doesn't mean they weren't rolling around in agony back then totally full of doubts that they ever heard from Him, that they'd ever be able to obey Him, that they'd ever be able to hear Him, etc."

is what I want to talk about, as it describes exactly the near torture it is in trying to learn how to hear at first. It's like riding a bicycle. It was real tough when you first started to learn and you fell a lot, but once you got it down pat with a few years under your belt, you made it look deceptively "easy" to learn how to the next generation.

Forgetting all of these and more, worked into the equation.....

Knowing you're accountable, warring with your own mind over what you heard, telling your carnal mind to shut up, asking for clarification of what you heard 5 times, and maybe He won't give you that "comfort zone" because He wants you to step out in faith and learn to trust Him.

Learning how not to care what you look like to others and be courageous, if what He tells you to say makes you look like a blithering idiot on serious drugs for a few seconds (which seems like an eternity if you have an audience of more than one).  :winkgrin:

Being delivered of fear of man gradually through this entire process, and being shunned by more people than you actually knew to begin with (no small feat  :laughing7: ), just because He elected to use you that way with them.  :mshock:

Then; when it is like second nature to you because it's now normal to you, forgetting who you're talking to in some reference to it, or saying "He said", and experiencing that sickening feeling that sorta starts in your toes and goes straight to your face as you blush from the recognition that you have just alienated a few more people.  :mblush:

It's a process, no doubt about it. Blessings...

[sparrow]

Sparrow, I love you more than you could ever possibly understand.  But I do tread softly on all of the details of my heart.  What I said was in the New Testament and as the New Testament characters and authors would use it.

Why do you say "more than you could ever possibly understand" Why would you think that I would not ever possibly understand?

Well IceDash is a person. He is not a character.
Can't we just be real here... and stop wiith all the religion.
Religion is getting in the way of fellowship.
It is creating a barrier.

I see it.
and apparently so does IceDash.

[sparrow]

And I'm not talking about refraining from talking about certain topics.
not at all.
I am talking about being REAL with each other.

and not holding each other at arm's distance.

[martincisneros]

Sparrow,

It's all I am.  You reject the Scriptures, then you reject me.  I don't have anything else.  It's not a mask.  There's nothing else beneath the surface.  This is me.  This is me moment by moment, day by day, process of thought, process of prayer, process of life, process of worship, process of ingestion and elimination, process of hearing, process of understanding, and process of loving.  All you've ever done is criticize me, to me and to others.  I'm not going to ever change.  If I can cram more of God's Word into my life, then I'm going to do it.  If this is vulgar for you, then watch me become more vulgar still, in the Name of Jesus Christ (Colossians 3:17).

[Zeek]

And I'm not talking about refraining from talking about certain topics.
not at all.
I am talking about being REAL with each other.

and not holding each other at arm's distance.

I say this in reflection, for the path of questioning my own "beliefs and thots" that i have taken. 

In wanting others to be "real" assumes then some "are not", and that this is "less than ideal" which in the mind of the person "wanting" change; has created a "division" too; holding that person (who is not "real") at arm's distance.

any desire for others to be different than what they are, is to judge oneself.


http://www.thework.com/index.asp

[sparrow]

Sparrow,

It's all I am.  You reject the Scriptures, then you reject me.  I don't have anything else.  It's not a mask.  There's nothing else beneath the surface.  This is me.  This is me moment by moment, day by day, process of thought, process of prayer, process of life, process of worship, process of ingestion and elimination, process of hearing, process of understanding, and process of loving.  All you've ever done is criticize me, to me and to others.  I'm not going to ever change.  If I can cram more of God's Word into my life, then I'm going to do it.  If this is vulgar for you, then watch me become more vulgar still, in the Name of Jesus Christ (Colossians 3:17).

I honestly do not even know how to respond to this.
We were talking about IceDash.

But I don't SEE the real you.
I DO see a mask. (at times. Other times the real you does appear... TO ME, my perspective. This is just my perspective, Martin. Just letting you in. Not judging you. I'm sure others see me the same way. It's not that big of a deal.)
I believe you are more than what you put out on the boards.

"All you've ever done is criticize me, to me and to others."
"If this is vulgar for you, then watch me become more vulgar still,"
"You reject the Scriptures, then you reject me"

? ? ?

I think we need to get the focus back on IceDash.
Because apparently he has left.
And I hate to see anyone leave.
I believe there is a misunderstanding and if we are all loving, gentle and kind with each other then we can learn to break down the barriers that divide.

THAT is what is important to me.


Zeek... You are misunderstanding me.
There is no IDEAL or NOT IDEAL.
This isn't about that at ALL.

REAL to me... is... well... you know it when you see it.
What else can I say?
I'm not seeing it and just making mention of it, because I believe that BARRIERS are slowly built between people.
Barrier's aren't a positive thing.

I think sometimes folks say things in a way that they try to make it seem like they're saing ONE thing, but in reality they're saying something else. That's not real. That is the beginning of barriers being built.

I hate to see a member leave.
Let's TALK.

Let's just cut the "religion" for a MINUTE.
and talk.

so that way we can GET BACK to talking about God.
sometimes someone falls off the train.
you don't KEEP GOING.
You stop the train.

This isn't about anyone being IDEAL or NOT IDEAL.
For God's sake that's the VERY thing I'm talking about.

We're ALL just brothers and sisters.
A fellow family member has left.

and I think we need to stop the train for a moment.

[Zeek]

whether you agree or not, i do hope you will spend some time on this website, watching some of the videos.   It opened my eyes to how my "belief" in how things should be, is the source of division. 

http://www.thework.com/index.asp

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: ID, you've brought up a lot of good questions on this board, that have led to some very fruitful discussions, and I sincerely hope sparrow is wrong  :sigh:  and you have not left the board. We're all in this boat together and there is no joy in even one member "jumping ship". Blessings to you.... :HeartThrob:

[martincisneros]

Sparrow,

It comes back down to your view of Scripture, that if you don't believe that the Scriptures personify God, then you're not going to believe that the Scriptures personify the person conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.  On the other hand, with my beliefs, I'm simply being consistent with myself, true to the nature that the Holy Spirit has given me in keeping with the plan of Christ Jesus our High Priest, and in fulfillment of the Written Word of God that you don't believe expresses the mind of God for all believers anyway.  If I did otherwise, I wouldn't be real -- what's real for me!  I'm genuinely being real, and in saying that, I'm not saying that you're not -- and neither am I falling back on the ultra liberal "to each his own."  I'm just going to keep sharing Christ as I understand Him, His Kingdom, and the place of a seed in that, and if that's going to continue to particularly bother you, then you're going to have to ask yourself why you keep reading my posts.  Plain and simple. 

I used to be a phoney.  Spent my preliminary years in life as a phoney, and I know the vast difference and what for me is real and isn't real.  If you want to launch into the full discussion of what is a real Christian and what is not and what is in your view the distinguishing marks of a real person, I'm more than willing to engage it, as my scheduling allows,  because I did minor in philosophy.  But I'm just being me and I'm the most comfortable with myself that I've ever been.  I'm having the time of my life and my Father isn't looking to take that away from me.  I'm just sharing my heart.  That's all I'm doing.  If you have an issue with that, then you just simply have rejected my heart.  That's all there is to that, although I know you're not going to see it that way.  I'm happy and confident in all of the places that the Holy Spirit has taken me, all that He's had me say, and I'm making zero apologies for when I know I'm handling the situation 100% the way He would.

Do I always handle the situation 100% the way He would?  No, but that's not a carnal issue in my life.  It often is in other people's lives, but not in mine any more.  That's simply falling off of my bicycle 'cause of a slick street, thick fog, or heavy rain.  And when I've walked in the Throne Room to repent, He's told me that there wasn't anything to repent of 'cause my heart never wandered and neither did my mouth, imagination, or flesh but I simply didn't know enough about the Scriptures that applied to the particular situation and was acting in faith on the Scriptures as far as I understood at the time.  I just didn't know enough about the situation I was dealing with, whether how I should have handled my cat or a job situation or some things that I purchased that were a waste of money when I could have gotten better had I simply used my faith.

This is honestly me.  Do I enjoy movies, food, sports, video games, flowers, candy, sun bathing, swimming, archery, art, museums, concerts, etc.??  Of course.  But I always consistently enjoy the Scriptures infinitely more, talking about them as they relate to each need of Creation and where we're heading, and how to get the most out of these mortal bodies, or out of these mortal bodies by faith, in the meeting of the needs of everyone in the way that Christ Jesus as our Coach and Umpire is discussing a particular strategy related to an individual, community, or whatever.  The thread wasn't about anything else, but with regards to the Scriptures, and from IceDash: whether anyone can ever really understand the heart of God, the Bible, and totally transform this world. 

With any interaction of individuals on a discussion board, you've got to keep the focus of their interactions in context between multiple threads rather than think that someone necessarily got mad over what happened on that particular thread.  I wouldn't have done a thing differently, except to have perhaps gone deeper into the Scriptures had I personally had the time.  But I didn't, so with everything I've said I've had to be much more brief than I've intended to be.  But my conscience is totally clear, and my Lord just complimented me, so I don't know what else to tell you.  I'm going to go and spend time with Him after that, and if there's anything further to be discussed about this, then I'll look at it when I have a chance.

[peacemaker]

Icedash didn't cogitate a deliberate scheme to undermine or challenge your integrity, Martin, any more than you being condescending. But I have a couple questions, mostly out of curiosity.

Why twenty-one variations of Job 17:7 in multiple languages?
Also, was that the 1587-1599 Geneva Bible you quoted from?

If it was, you have an excellent memory!

peacemaker

[sparrow]

If you want to launch into the full discussion of what is a real Christian and what is not and what is in your view the distinguishing marks of a real person,

Nope. That is not what I want to discuss at all.

:sigh:

I'm sorry IceDash, if I took the focus off what you were trying to focus on in this thread.
I apologize for sending it down another path.
That was not my intention.
I merely wanted to break down a barrier I saw being quickly built...

peace to you.
again, I'm sorry.

[martincisneros]

Icedash didn't cogitate a deliberate scheme to undermine or challenge your integrity, Martin, any more than you being condescending.

The Lord redirected me to spend some time with a couple of folks online and said that before I did, there was a couple of questions waiting on me over here. 

Wasn't my intention to be condescending.  I'm not even sure what that is beyond an attitude that I haven't had since I came into UR, having the Gospel to animals commited to my charge, and having my Premillenialism flushed down the toilet.  I have the eagerness of a child many times :trampoline: 'cause I'm genuinely sooo extremely excited by my Lord.  Every single day for me is becoming more and more and more exciting.  When you're seeing more and more and more of all that God has and is giving, it's really difficult to have a condescending attitude when your eyes are bugged out at the lavish abundance and you're stumbling into it like one of the 4 lepers like Gomer Pile going "Goooooolllllly." :mshock: 

There never has been time during the last 19 years, and particularly the last 16 to 18 years that hasn't been that way for me.  I've been disappointed by people, even on these boards, but I genuinely don't recall ever looking at someone with a tone in my voice about them.  I have the relationship with the Lord and the knowledge of what's really going on that I always wanted.  You will not find a more grateful man on the entire planet than me.  It's impossible.  Unless they've seen, in their own spiritual lives, where I'm heading next and are just an indicator that I'm really about to scream like a girl.  The only way someone could be more grateful than me is if they're a few inches ahead of me and have more to scream about, but I'll get there pretty quick to see what all of the giddy fuss is about! 

I'm chasing Him as fast as I can.  And I acknowledge that some people that I haven't met yet have probably got more years down the road on this kind of journey where every letter of the Scriptures is an out of body experience.  I didn't come into UR with dissatisfaction with my spiritual life and a chip on my shoulder against all that God was doing elsewhere like many others have, so I can't relate to all of the absolute bitterness that I hear from many Universalists about how dry things were prior to their seeing UR.  I came into UR because it was the next harvest of all that I'd sown of the Word and of everything else that pertains to my life that I'd sown up until then.  Everything with me thus far has been a harvest rather than rebellion and dissatisfaction with my previous understanding of the Word.  I've sown to where I'm at from the beginning, and have consistently believed for my harvest, and I'm the product of seeds sown prior to my own call to repentance and to have faith in Christ Jesus.

But I have a couple questions, mostly out of curiosity.

Why twenty-one variations of Job 17:7 in multiple languages?
Also, was that the 1587-1599 Geneva Bible you quoted from?

If it was, you have an excellent memory!

peacemaker

I didn't realize it was twenty-one variations.  I was simply quoting it while watching Smallville.  And my point in the multiple translations was that memorization isn't the least bit difficult.  You've just gotta honestly care and reverence God's Word enough to have at least one translation down.  And I brought up synesthesia as one of a million reasons why some people might have more of the Word commited to memory than others.  Could have brought up Autism as well, but I don't know much about that, other than the math wizzes that are heard about every once in a while.  My point was never to indicate that that gave anyone more advantages in hearing from God, but to answer him on that.  It's not a verse that I say much about, but I'm sure that IceDash doesn't understand it at all, based upon what he was saying about Job. 

I spent about 16 years not being able to tell you where most of what I'd say was at, as far as specific chapter and verse numbers, but I got challenged by my reading of Edwin Stone's biography of Elhanan Winchester when he said that Elhanan would write his books right in the midst of multiple conversations with different people in the room with him, and would never pick up a Bible to double check his references, but simply stated the verse and where it was at and never lost his train of thought while discussing everything else that wasn't necessarily the least bit relevant to what he was writing.  I was like, okay, I'm adding virtue, or moral excellence to my faith, according to 2Peter 1 and I'm going to get this address issue on many of these Scriptures resolved at least in my mind whether I ever wind up talking like Jack Van Impe or not with attaching the reference to every sentence that I say.  Just as a further act of self discipline, I'm going to know where it's at. 

Doesn't hurt at all the fact that in Word of Faith circles (i.e. my background) that there's plenty said and written about Job, so that there's probably a stack of books that I could eventually find URLs of ordering information for people on that taken together would essentially be close to a commentary.  So, Job was always coming up in believer's conventions in the 90s and on daily broadcasts as each chapter would get dissected for what was going on, both internally with the translation and externally with the principles given to us by Christ Jesus and the Apostles. 

For me, personally, it teetered on tossing at me "what does Mark 11:23 say? WITHOUT CHEATING!!"  Job, Israel in the wilderness, David's adultery and how that lead to all of his heart ache with Absalom later as his harvest, and every other tragedy or anything misconstrued by the carnal mind as a "que cera, cera" verse is looked at very carefully in those circles and in their publications, or was at least during the 90s when I was the most active in those circles.  I haven't heard it come up much in a while, although dad's brought it up in some of his meetings just in passing while talking about the blessing of the Lord that makes rich and adds no sorrow to it.  I didn't have to modify much in my thinking on those particulars when I came over into UR, other than to take a fuller look at what the New Testament had to say about Job and the end intended by the Lord, which now includes my understanding of Postmillenialism as well as UR.

I stopped quoting translations when I looked up during a commercial and realized that I was getting a little carried away.  I sincerely meant to comment on the verse, and it's context in the chapter, in the book, and how the man was still walking in the spirit although many would look at that and misconstrue carnality into the man, but then I was like hey, I'm sincerely not getting anywhere with you in trying to share.  Here's what it said, although without our being in front of each other, you wouldn't have believed one translation being quoted much less all of these. and closed my post. 

I stopped not because I ran out of gas, but because I realized that if I started chasing that in a "reacting" way, then I'd be chasing him all over the boards about every difference rather than simply taking the proactive stance, as I was taking, in simply outlining my understanding of the Kingdom, the consistency of the Scriptures, and what's available to the new man in Christ, and how we'll always be able to have more and more in this life as He has more and more of us, and is more and more revealed through us in these mortal bodies.

And I'm hoping a couple of people I was supposed to talk with tonight haven't already called it a night or gone to work on some weird shift.  But the Lord said to stop by here, first, and then open up Skype.  I wouldn't necessarily call it an excellent memory that I have 'cause it also means every detail of things I really have to believe God about keeping behind me, otherwise they'll destroy the possibility of a relationship that God's been talking to me about for a pretty long while now that He has great interest in bringing my way soon. 

I'll never get accusatory 'cause I associate too much pain with that and too much pleasure with going with what God's been telling me.  I want all that God has for me, no matter how much blame I ever wind up having to take.  I care more for making things right than being right, and walking into all of the fullness of all that God has for me.  Oh God, get her talking with me again soon.  Even if it meant a good dose of a red sun like in the SupermanII movie.  I, at least, have God's promise that Zod comes down in my life time, though...