Hello,
First, I'd like to start by saying that I'm a recent 'convert' to Universalism, loathe as I am to use the word - can going from believing in the doctrine of eternal torment to the greater hope in universalism really be considered a conversion? - and that this site has been amazing. Though I had been reading about universalism for a while, a lot of the material on your website has really driven it home for me.
However, I still have a few problems. Verses like Revelation 20:11-15 (NIV):
Quote" 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
I've always struggled with what this "lake of fire" and "book of life" means. I tried looking for an explanation on tentmaker and unfortunately I wasn't able to find it. If someone could explain to me what exactly this passage is saying, then I would be very grateful.
Another passage I've struggled with is Matthew 25:31-46. So you don't have to go and look it up, it reads thus:
Quote31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
What does this mean? Verse 46 in particular is what gives me pause. If we accept "eternal punishment" to mean "age-abiding correction" ('aionios kolasis') in the original Greek, what does the second half of the verse mean? Is the life for the righteous only as 'eternal' as the "age-abiding correction" for the wicked? So far as I know, the same word is used to describe both the punishment for the wicked and the life of the righteous.
I was reading CARM (yeah, I know) to test my belief in Universalism, and the two questions I've posed here were the only ones I've been unable to answer.
Thank you so much in advance for any light anybody can shed on these passages. I've searched Tentmaker for the answers, but I was not able to find them - if they're there, I apologize, and a link to those pages would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Ward
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3013.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=5882.0
I suppose I didn't look hard enough. Thanks so much.
Nah, don't worry about it...White Wings is just the master resource/research guy :thumbsup:.
this might help you as well
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=4781.0
second death might rather imply extinction than to survive but continue to live in conscious torment everlastingly (does anybody claim hades and death will be tormented in the lake of fire? - at least that they will be destroyed in the lake of fire seems to be commonly assumed)
you should carefully compare 1 Corinthians 15 with the last chapters of revelation, it seems to go beyond (therefore ages of ages or "for ever and ever" probably not endless).
this might also help you:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6040.0
and also maybe this (especially refuting Augustines argument)
http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=337
Quote from: jabcat on May 19, 2009, 09:10:24 AM
Nah, don't worry about it...White Wings is just the master resource/research guy :thumbsup:.
:cloud9: That he is.... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Ward on May 19, 2009, 08:21:59 AM
Hello,
First, I'd like to start by saying that I'm a recent 'convert' to Universalism, loathe as I am to use the word - can going from believing in the doctrine of eternal torment to the greater hope in universalism really be considered a conversion? - and that this site has been amazing. Though I had been reading about universalism for a while, a lot of the material on your website has really driven it home for me.
However, I still have a few problems. Verses like Revelation 20:11-15 (NIV):
Quote" 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
I've always struggled with what this "lake of fire" and "book of life" means. I tried looking for an explanation on tentmaker and unfortunately I wasn't able to find it. If someone could explain to me what exactly this passage is saying, then I would be very grateful.
Another passage I've struggled with is Matthew 25:31-46. So you don't have to go and look it up, it reads thus:
Quote31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
What does this mean? Verse 46 in particular is what gives me pause. If we accept "eternal punishment" to mean "age-abiding correction" ('aionios kolasis') in the original Greek, what does the second half of the verse mean? Is the life for the righteous only as 'eternal' as the "age-abiding correction" for the wicked? So far as I know, the same word is used to describe both the punishment for the wicked and the life of the righteous.
I was reading CARM (yeah, I know) to test my belief in Universalism, and the two questions I've posed here were the only ones I've been unable to answer.
Thank you so much in advance for any light anybody can shed on these passages. I've searched Tentmaker for the answers, but I was not able to find them - if they're there, I apologize, and a link to those pages would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Ward
Not wanting to add to your confusion, but there are some who hold to the Universal Reconciliation (UR) that claim they are NOT Universalists (namely, Martin Zender), which they define as those who believe that God is too nice to punish anyone in an afterlife scenario.
I'd be careful about using the term Universalist (except around here of course) because Universalist and Universalism are such loaded words, that you have a very high percentage chance of being misunderstood as to what you mean by that by the mainstream church.
I've heard some say that Universalists believe that there are many ways to God, but that certainly isn't true of me, for one. If anything, I'd reverse that and say, No, there's only one way to God, but He has many ways to you... :laughing7:
Hey Ward, I'm not a universalist, nor am I in agreement with "carm". In fact, I'm a true vagabond.
I not seeing the bible teach "eternal" torment, but I do see where souls "perish". I'm seeing humans can only change from mortal to immortal if they cleave to a husband (head/way of thinking).
I'm seeing a difference between human beings and those born from above.
Adam was created and then formed, the form of Adam came from the earth, Adam came from God. That which came from God shall return to God and that which came from the earth shall return to the earth.
Adam was not conscious of his human nature til he considered or consumed it to his spiritual mind.
The human nature sins and perishes, and all that it holds dear perishes. It's only the nature of God in man that survives the death. Not all have a conscious awareness that they can describe. However all have an awareness, but anuable to comprehend or put it in words. Like a child in the womb, it hears and thinks but has no language to describe these thoughts to itself.
There's a question I've heard asked, "what if one gains the whole world but looses his own soul"? I ask, what if one gains eternal life but has no knowledge of expression? The soul expresses the spirit, God judges the spirit, if the spirit has no soul it survives, but what can it express?
My point? The soul is a terrible thing to waste!
There is a way to "see" the kingdom. Our soul is made up of thoughts and perceptions, from both nature's. When our spirit leaves our human vessel it takes with it all that have become one with it. "The woman (soul) is saved through childbearing (expressing the spirit through the soul)". A child is the exact expression of both it's father and mother. It's a picture of the trinity, Jesus Christ, through the Spirit, is the express image of the Father.
God has set into motion certain laws that work for the good of all. The human nature is subject to all the laws and restrictions of the lower realm. However the nature that is born of God is free and never bound, even when we don't think so.
All will be saved, the goats and the sheep. The sheep are saved from perishing with the goats and the goats from eternal torment. How? The sheep nature returns to God where it came from and the goat nature returns to the earth where it came from (perishes).
Hi vagabond,
Sounds like you are talking about Annihilation.
Consider that the word for "perish" in greek is the same word as "lost" - the greek word apollymi.
Then remember that Jesus came to save the lost (apollymi) - Luke 19:10.
Also consider this verse:
Isaiah 57:1 The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil.
If the righteous perish, does that mean that they won't be saved? In fact the verse tells us itself that the reason they were taken was so they would be spared.
Don't assume "destroy" or "perish" is something that cannot be undone by God. When God converts a wicked person to righteousness, can we not say the wicked person has been destroyed? The wicked person is no longer there - he has been remade and reborn in righteousness - a new creation.
Peace...
Hey legoman, I'm seeing mankind made up of two natures. Adam originally being a spirit being made in the image and likeness of God(s) (I show a suggestion of plural because "Elohyim" is a plural Hebrew word and both male and female).
It was the "Lord" of Gods that formed man dust of the ground. All earthen vessels are formed from the dust and have the same "instinctive nature" for survival. What I'm seeing is it's the nature of Gods in man that is to be wed by the humas nature for it to gain eternal life.
As for being lost, the humas nature is not lost, it's exactly where it's suppose to be, it's humas, a Latin term meaning dirt or earth. It has an nature not unlike all the beasts of the field to survive and pro-create. It's the spirit man Adam that is lost and that is exactly what Christ is come for. Unless the humas man accepts the contract offered by the spirit man it shall perish as it should, with all the other beasts. It's the inner man that is now perished, or lost, but a saviour has come for the "ALL".
If God saves the inner man and loses the humas man does he still consider "all" saved?
Ah ok, I think I got you.
The flesh will be destroyed, but the spirit will live on (be saved). Flesh will not inherit the Kingdom, because it is our flesh nature which is sinful.
Later...
QuoteThe flesh will be destroyed, but the spirit will live on (be saved). Flesh will not inherit the Kingdom, because it is our flesh nature which is sinful.
as you mention this, Job 19:26 cames in my mind,
the KJV has
And though after my skin worms destroy this body , yet in my flesh shall I see God:yet other translations (here Rotherham's Emphasized) have
And, though, after my skin is struck off, this followeth , yet, apart from my flesh, shall I see GOD: if the later is true, do you think this has a deeper meaning?
Interesting find Sven.
That's got to be another translation error in the KJV. NIV has the same thing.
But here it is the NASB:
Job 19:26 Even after my skin is destroyed,
Yet from my flesh I shall see God;
Amplified:
Job 19:26 And after my skin, even this body, has been destroyed, then from my flesh or without it I shall see God,
This should clarify it:
1 Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
QuoteThat's got to be another translation error in the KJV.
actually both translations seem to be possible, at least several translations have footnotes that say so
I just remembered the verse cause the Seventh Day Adventist Prof. Veith calls the later translation occult, this is why this verse got my attention.
A very literal translation:
Job 19:26 and.after skin-of.me they-encompass this and.from.flesh-of.me I-shall-percieve Eloah
Each group of English words is a translation of one Hebrew word.
It can be very hard to translate some things.
Companion/Bullinger Bible
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see GOD
Body rots away in the grave. but the resurrected body will face God.
If that is the meaning of the verse it doesn't sound contradicting.
Just guessing.... :winkgrin:
Quote from: legoman on May 22, 2009, 11:20:05 PM
Interesting find Sven.
That's got to be another translation error in the KJV. NIV has the same thing.
But here it is the NASB:
Job 19:26 Even after my skin is destroyed,
Yet from my flesh I shall see God;
Amplified:
Job 19:26 And after my skin, even this body, has been destroyed, then from my flesh or without it I shall see God,
This should clarify it:
1 Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Worms in us refer to an earthly nature ........ as food worms is earthly food that does nothing to increase man unlike manna (bread) from heaven. In hell ones "earthly nature" (worm) dieth not
Wormwood is the curse of an earthly man unable to grasp heavenly things.
Maybe in that light the KJV will not appear so mistranslated
Blessings
Doug
Thanks for all the links, everyone, and especially for the links to L. Ray Smith's stuff. I have yet to read all of it (or even most of it - there's a lot of material there!) but it's obvious that he has a remarkable understanding of the Bible and I've learned a great deal (even though I feel must disagree with him on a few minor issues, though this is not the appropriate topic for that), particularly of my original two questions.
God bless,
Ward
:cloud9: That's good about the worms, Doug....... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on May 23, 2009, 03:02:52 PM
:cloud9: That's good about the worms, Doug....... :thumbsup:
Thanks Card
What is really interesting (IMO) is what caused the manna from heaven to get 'wormy"
Definitely a prophecy of how earthly man can even screw up things from heaven when he does not obey God.......... consequently our generation has inherited what has in most instances become a "Godless church".
Blessings
Doug
:cloud9: Yep, we're supposed to be gathering a double portion of manna until we FULLY spiritually enter the Sabbath day, when we will have to gather no more; for lo, in the twinkling of an eye WE were CHANGED into the manna/bread from heaven to feed the nations. :mshock:
Unlike the "churches" who think they get changed to fly AWAY from the nations. :laughing7: Ask of Me, and I will give you the heathen for your inheritance. I'm asking, Lord! :winkgrin: Blessings....
The carnal mind will rot the present revelation of the Father.
We must follow the pillar of cloud and fire wherever and whenever it leads.
Otherwise, yesterdays manna will become a church, creed or static doctrine of men.
:cloud9: Yes it will. :thumbsup: The carnal mind seeks to corrupt whatever the Spirit speaks to it. This is why the adversary comes immediately to steal the Word (Spirit breathed Word) that has been spoken to our heart. Blessings....