Tentmaker Forum

"I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the Lord: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them. A curse on him who is lax in doing the Lord's work! A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed." [Jer. 13:14; 48:10]

Can anyone explain this?

There is another part in the Bible (which i cant find), but in my NIV (somewhere it says)

"Stone them to death! Be the first to stone them!".


Sometimes i just think about living a life of as much love as i can, and leaving the Bible far behind.

Is it just me, or can other reasoning minds just not accept this from coming from God?

If God told me to 'not keep my sword from bloodshed', i'd have a few things to say.

If he said "Stone them! Be the first too!" 
I'd be thinking 'isnt there a quicker less painful way to rid someone of their life? (if thats what you want) Rather than stone them?'  ...

...Stoning could go on for hours....Id have trouble stoning a rabbit never mind another human being.  Couldn't we just have mercy on the criminal and hope he repents?  After all most of the crimes they are being stoned for seem pretty trivial anyway.

Sometimes it seems (for moral reasons) i just want to let go of religion full stop. 
I just cant group these passages with an all loving God at all. 

I know these parts of the Bible are hard to 'chew on',  But having answers to such things is a major faith increaser.  If anyone can shed some light id be very greatful, ive been looking online but most seem to avoid such things.

 

  Hi Marc ,
the Old covenant  God  and the New Covenant God  are   described very different indeed
  and many a ''bone of contention''   over this very fact and  has been even here at Tentmaker  over the years 
Jeremiah the ''weeping prophet '' is one of the most exposing of Gods   wrath in my opinion 

    when I read   in Jeremiah  somewhere where he says not to pray for these people  , I freaked out ..   wondering if God was  really this cruel ?
Jer 7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee. 
Jer 11:14 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear [them] in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble. 
Jer 14:11 Then said the LORD unto me, Pray not for this people for [their] good. 

  I  look into what  people he was referring to   and   over the years I have learned to just   ''take it all in '' and let the Spirit lead me in whatever direction  God wills 

   Jesus words  in the red letters always help me out in a bind ...
  I feel He is  the  leader of the New and better way /covenant , and thats  what I also desire  :HeartThrob:
 
I sure hope someone will give a good answer to you bro real soon on this  subject ..

 :cloud9: This is how I see it and I've shared this before, but I had a dream/vision real as day, I was caught up by the Spirit in the spirit into the realm of the stars and witnessed balls of light with faces on them, that I knew were people coming into the earth to inhabit flesh bodies. We were one with Him from the foundation of the world, which means we pre-existed in spiritual bodies before we were lowered into this corruption of flesh.

So thru the oneness of the Spirit, I was able to "hear" their conversations as they were descending, and they were aware of who they were going to be individually to each other, and were discussing in detail their "assignments". The joy of the Lord hit me, as they were in joy totally over what they were being "called" to do, and all knew they were going to be as lively/living stones used to polish one another into the perfection like unto the Son of God from which they came.

So having said that, we are told that EVERYTHING that happened of the OT peoples were for a type and a shadow of spiritual realities found in the Truth that is Christ. We are also told no greater love has any man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. We are also told that THEY (those that came before us) can be made perfect or complete without us, the sons of God arising upon Mt. Zion.

So those that had those "parts" to play that were distasteful to say the least, I believe knew it beforehand, before they ever put on suits of flesh to act it out. I believe they played a part to display the "fractional" way God deals with re-assembling man that was fragmented in his being lowered into this corruption. So what He had to say was viable as teaching to those of us ordained to this hour, and his judgments are always to the flesh of man, that the spirit might be saved, which is why it says His judgments are unto victory.

So having said all this, if they laid down their lives for us to see the pattern, no wonder He is calling us to lay down our lives that THEY might be made perfect or complete in Christ. My  :2c: Blessings......                 

Thanks for your replys everyone.
Ive been a little busy lately but im determined that once i have time im going to look into the passages i sent further and see what sense i can make of them from a scriptural point of view. 
What i really want to find out is exactly who God was speaking to at that time and who he was having killed etc.  I have to remember that God was preserving his people at that time and couldnt let anything stand in the way of his grand plans (to save mankind), i just find these passages hard sometimes at the best of times to accept.

Founds these commentaries if anyone is interested


Geneva Study Bible
{h} Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.

(h) He shows that God would punish the Chaldeans if they did not destroy the Egyptians, and that with a courage, and calls this executing of his vengeance against his enemies, his work though the Chaldeans sought another end, Isa 10:11.

King James Translators' Notes

deceitfully: or, negligently

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

10. work of . Lord-the divinely appointed utter devastation of Moab. To represent how entirely this is God's will, a curse is pronounced on the Chaldeans, the instrument, if they do it negligently (Margin) or by halves (Jud 5:23); compare Saul's sin as to Amalek (1Sa 15:3, 9), and Ahab's as to Syria (1Ki 20:42).

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

48:1-13. The Chaldeans are to destroy the Moabites. We should be thankful that we are required to seek the salvation of men's lives, and the salvation of their souls, not to shed their blood; but we shall be the more without excuse if we do this pleasant work deceitfully. The cities shall be laid in ruins, and the country shall be wasted. There will be great sorrow. There will be great hurry. If any could give wings to sinners, still they could not fly out of the reach of Divine indignation. There are many who persist in unrepented iniquity, yet long enjoy outward prosperity. They had been long corrupt and unreformed, secure and sensual in prosperity. They have no changes of their peace and prosperity, therefore their hearts and lives are unchanged, Ps 55:19.

Matthew Henry's Whole Bible Commentary

Chapter 48

Moab is next set to the bar before Jeremiah the prophet, whom God has constituted judge over nations and kingdoms, from his mouth to receive its doom. Isaiah's predictions concerning Moab had had their accomplishment (we had the predictions Isa. 15 and 16 and the like Amos 2:1), and they were fulfilled when the Assyrians, under Salmanassar, invaded and distressed Moab. But this is a prophecy of the desolations of Moab by the Chaldeans, which were accomplished under Nebuzaradan, about five years after he had destroyed Jerusalem. Here is, I. The destruction foretold, that it should be great and general, should extend itself to all parts of the country (v. 1-6, 8, and again v. 21-25, 34), that spoilers should come upon them and force some to flee (v. 9), should carry many into captivity (v. 12, 46), that the enemy should come shortly (v. 16), come swiftly and surprise them (v. 40, 41), that he should make thorough work (v. 10) and lay the country quite waste, though it was very strong (v. 14, 15), that there should be no escaping (v. 42, 45), that this should force them to quit their idols (v. 13, 35) and put an end to all their joy (v. 33, 34), that their neighbours shall lament them (v. 17-19) and the prophet himself does (v. 31, 36, etc.). II. The causes of this destruction assigned; it was sin that brought this ruin upon them, their pride, and security, and carnal confidence (v. 7, 11, 14, 29), and their contempt of and enmity to God and his people (v. 26, 27, 30). III. A promise of the restoration of Moab (v. 48).

Verses 1-13

We may observe in these verses,

I. The author of Moab's destruction; it is the Lord of hosts, that has armies, all armies, at his command, and the God of Israel (v. 1), who will herein plead the cause of his Israel against a people that have always been vexatious to them, and will punish them now for the injuries done to Israel of old, though Israel was forbidden to meddle with them (Deu. 2:9), therefore the destruction of Moab is called the work of the Lord (v. 10), for it is he that pleads for Israel; and his work will exactly agree with his word, v. 8.

II. The instruments of it: Spoilers shall come (v. 8), shall come with a sword, a sword that shall pursue them, v. 2. "I will send unto him wanderers, such as come from afar, as if they were vagrants, or had missed their way, but they shall cause him to wander; they seem as wanderers themselves, but they shall make the Moabites to be really wanderers, some to flee and others to be carried into captivity." These destroyers stir up themselves to do execution; they have devised evil against Heshbon, one of the principal cities of Moab, and they aim at no less than the ruin of the kingdom: Come, and let us cut it off from being a nation (v. 2); nothing less will serve the turn of the invaders; they come, not to plunder it, but to ruin it. The prophet, in God's name, engages them to make thorough work of it (v. 10): Cursed be he that does the work of the Lord deceitfully, this bloody work, this destroying work; though it goes against the grain with men of compassion, yet it is the work of the Lord, and must not be done by the halves. The Chaldeans have it in charge, by a secret instinct (says Mr. Gataker), to destroy the Moabites, and therefore they must not spare, must not, out of foolish pity, keep back their sword from blood; they would thereby bring a sword, and a curse with it, upon themselves, as Saul did by sparing the Amalekites and Ahab by letting Benhadad go. Thy life shall go for his life. To this work is applied that general rule given to all that are employed in any service for God, Cursed by he that does the work of the Lord deceitfully or negligently, that pretends to do it, but does it not to purpose, makes a show of serving God's glory, but is really serving his own ends and carries on the work of the Lord no further than will suit his own purposes, or that is slothful in business for God and takes neither care nor pains to do it as it should be done, Mal. 1:14. Let not such deceive themselves, for God will not thus be mocked.

III. The woeful instances and effects of this destruction. The cities shall be laid in ruins; they shall be spoiled (v. 1) and cut down (v. 2); they shall be desolate (v. 9), without any to dwell therein; there shall be no houses to dwell in, or no people to dwell in them, or no safety and ease to those that would dwell in them. Every city shall be spoiled and no city shall escape. The strongest city shall not be able to secure itself against the enemies' power, nor shall the finest city be able to recommend itself to the enemies' pity and favour. The country also shall be wasted, the valley shall perish, and the plain be destroyed, v. 8. The corn and the flocks, which used to cover the plains and make the valleys rejoice, shall all be destroyed, eaten up, trodden down, or carried off. The most sacred persons shall not escape: The priests and princes shall go together into captivity. Nay, Chemosh, the god they worship, who, they hope, will protect them, shall share with them in the ruin; his temples shall be laid in ashes and his image carried away with the rest of the spoil. Now the consequence of all this will be, 1. Great shame and confusion: Kirjathaim is confounded, and Misgah is so. They shall be ashamed of the mighty boasts they have sometimes made of their cities: There shall be no more vaunting in Moab concerning Heshbon (so it might be read, v. 2); they shall no more boast of the strength of that city when the evil which is designed against it is brought upon it. Nor shall they any more boast of their gods (v. 13); they shall be ashamed of Chemosh (ashamed of all the prayers they have made to and all the confidence they put in that dunghill deity), as Israel was ashamed of Beth-el, of the golden calf they had at Beth-el, which they confided in as their protector, but were deceived in, for it was not able to save them from the Assyrians; nor shall Chemosh be able to save the Moabites from the Chaldeans. Note, Those that will not be convinced and made ashamed of the folly of their idolatry by the word of God shall be convinced and made ashamed of it by the judgments of God, when they shall find by woeful experience the utter inability of the gods they have served to do them any service. 2. There will be great sorrow; there is a voice of crying heard (v. 3) and the cry is nothing but spoiling and great destruction. Alas! alas! Moab is destroyed, v. 4. The great ones having quitted the cities to shift for their own safety, even the little ones have caused a cry to be heard, the meaner sort of people, or the little children, the innocent harmless ones, whose cries at such a time are the most piteous. Go up to the hills, go down to the valleys, and you meet with continual weeping (weeping with weeping); all are in tears; you meet none with dry eyes. Even the enemies have heard the cry, from whom it would have been policy to conceal it, for they will be animated and encouraged by it; but it is so great that it cannot be hid, 3. There will be great hurry; they will cry to one another, "Away, away! flee; save your lives (v. 6); shift for your own safety with all imaginable speed, though you escape as bare and naked as the heath, or grig, or dry shrub, in the wilderness; think not of carrying away any thing you have, for it may cost you your life to attempt it, Mt. 24:16-18. Take shelter, though it be in a barren wilderness, that you may have your lives for a prey. The danger will come suddenly and swiftly; and therefore give wings unto Moab (v. 9); that would be the greatest kindness you could do them; that is what they will call for, O that we had wings like a dove! for unless they have wings, and can fly, there will be no escaping."

IV. The sins for which God will now reckon with Moab, and which justify God in these severe proceedings against them. 1. It is because they have been secure, and have trusted in their wealth and strength, in their works and in their treasures, v. 7. They had taken a great deal of pains to fortify their cities and make large works about them, and to fill their exchequer and private coffers, so that they thought themselves in as good a posture for war as any people could be and that none durst invade them, and therefore set danger at defiance. They trusted in the abundance of their riches and strengthened themselves in their wickedness, Ps. 52:7. Now, for this reason, that they may have a sensible conviction of the vanity and folly of their carnal confidences, God will send an enemy that will master their works and rifle their treasures. Note, We forfeit the comfort of that creature which we repose that confidence in which should be reposed in God only. The reed will break that is leaned upon. 2. It is because they have not made a right improvement of the days of the peace and prosperity, v. 11. (1.) They had been long undisturbed: Moab has been at ease from his youth. It was an ancient kingdom before Israel was, and had enjoyed great tranquillity, though a small country and surrounded with potent neighbours. God's Israel were afflicted from their youth (Ps. 129:1, 2), but Moab at ease from his youth. He has not been emptied from vessel to vessel, has not known any troublesome weakening changes, but is as wine kept on the lees, and not racked or drawn off, by which it retains its strength and body. He has not been unsettled, nor any way made uneasy; he has not gone into captivity, as Israel have often done, and yet Moab is a wicked idolatrous nation, and one of the confederates against God's hidden ones, Ps. 83:3, 6. Note, There are many that persist in unrepented iniquity and yet enjoy uninterrupted prosperity. (2.) They had been as long corrupt and unreformed: He has settled on his lees; he has been secure and sensual in his prosperity, has rested in it, and fetched all the strength and life of the soul from it, as the wine from the lees. His taste remained in him, and his scent is not changed; he is still the same, as bad as ever he was. Note, While bad people are as happy as they used to be in the world it is no marvel if they are bad as they used to be. They have no changes of their peace and prosperity, therefore fear not God, their hearts and lives are unchanged, Ps. 55:19.

They will remove your nose and ears, consuming you by the harlotry of their fire:

"Put your sword back in its place; for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon punishment, or reward.

peacemaker

  Jesus said, at present ,my kingdom is not of this world,

  if it were, then[John 18;36] my servants would fight to

prevent my arrest by the jews,But now,my kingdom is from

another place.Now David's kingdom was of this world..a

nation specifically and uniquely set apart as God's chosen

people, a nation in the midst of many nations[a king given at

the request of the people to be like other nations around them]


  David could not build the house of the Lord because he was a

man of war.Warring  in the manner of flesh and blood..CAN

serve as an accurate shadow of the Kingdom of God, in that

spiritual warfare precedes and defends the Kingdom and

delivers into a peaceful reign. As David's warring was

prepartory in storing up provisions for Solomon to build with.

[there is a time for war and a time for peace]A peaceful reign

can be wrested and end by turning your heart from God


   
    All the scriptures is a story told of God as He speaks and

causes to come to pass His word and plan. As it unfolds

there are certain 'principalities" that would attempt to

corrupt the story line.


   For instance,Judah's  two sons were struck dead by God for

purposely spilling their seed on the ground,to prevent

conception by Tamar. Now, many men have done this very

thing..and were not struck dead immediately by God. What was

at issue was the promised seed of the line of Judah being

fulfilled as the Word of God come in flesh.What was being

messed with was the linage of the lion of the tribe of Judah


  Now, Tamar played the prostitute to eventually get that seed

and Judah had to admit 'she is more righteous than I'


  Now David commited adultery with Bathsheba and had her

huband killed, however,he wasn't struck dead by God

immediately..his son born to Bathsheba was. But the lineage

come down through Solomon by Bathsheba through another son.


  He is not a respector of persons, but He is a respector of HIS

FULILLED WORD AND ANY INTERFERENCE WITH IT'S

  FULFILLMENT IS SWIFTLY DEALT WITH.


  Some He deals with to serve as types and shadows for us..

  Annais and Sapphira..they are not the last ones to lie to the

Holy spirit..but their swift judgement serves as a type for

what awaits those that do. They served as an example for what

awaits lying spirits in opposition to the spirit of God. Annais

and Sapphira are delivered from that lying spirit and are fine,in

heaven. But any lying spirit messing with the fulfillment of

God's word through the Holy spirit will think twice about  that

maneuver again.


  The little children have not understood many of such things

and may judge our Father's actions  as very  harsh.


  Ecc 3  There is a time for everything,and a season for every

activity under heaven...a time for war,and a time for peace


  take a purse..don't take a purse....

     Sheila
 

Hi there JHAK (Jesushandsarekind for short)

I agree with you that the bible does seem strange at times.  God is love. Period.

Didn't Christ rebuke the Pharisees because they searched the scriptures thinking that they would find eternal life through them!  Words kill but the Spirit gives life. Religious people do it today, following the commandments, struggling to not do this or that and only getting worse and having less peace.

I am coming to the conclusion that not the whole bible is divinely inspired, how could it be with 'God' telling people to do that to each other?
Maybe the Israelites saw 'God' through their own eyes.

There is a story that i read concerning a Sufi mystic who crossed out a line in the Koran because it didn't ring true to her. It was the line, 'Hate the devil'.  When someone questioned her, she said that she couldn't hate the devil or anyone, because she was so full of the love of God, so as that line didn't ring true to her, she crossed it out.

Godbless
Nancy

While the day will come when all of humanity will study war no more, for now, you'd have to agree there are armies in this world.  God will have the last word and He has his hand in every pot.  If men are cookin', God's a lookin'.  Our culture is very feminizing.  All the way from not allowing the use of masculine adjectives for humanity in general to virtually requiring males to keep their faces hairless like females.  We are taught subservience is kindness.  Standing up for what is right is seen as an unnecessary rocking the boat.  It's usually difficult to see beyond our cultural bias.

There are armies and God uses them even in today's world without their permission.  Believe it or not, there are Godly soldiers and even armies fighting just wars.  They're not as spiritually developed as Elijah or Paul; but, how advanced are you?  If I support His word that "You shall not kill" and do so with all my soul, heart, strength and mind, as He did say I should love Him (hence, His word,) then I am justifying self defense, defending my family and even country.  We very well could see Moslem terrorists making a big difference in how we live in this country.  That will make a lot of people come to stand against what is evil and others cringe in fear.  One brother prophesied that in public schools they would allow time for the Moslem children to pray, but not allow Christian children the same right because of fear.

God can look at life and death different than we do.  He slays and makes alive.  People can't do that.  He also knows how we all will be changed.  We mostly just see a few breaths here and then we're gone.  Look at how distorted some people's character can be.  Some raised by dogs, if not gotten to young enough, never learn to talk.  The bones in their legs are permanently fused from running around on their knees.  People spending a lifetime in prison are not allowed to develop in many ways.  Some are sold into sexual slavery as children.  We tend to see only this short sojourn in the veil of flesh.  God knows He will perfect, bring to completion what concerns us:  to be formed in the image and likeness of God.  That has to continue beyond the body of this humiliation or God is a liar.

 :cloud9: Amen, Sheila and reFORMer.  :thumbsup: Blessings....

Quote from: reFORMer on October 26, 2009, 01:56:54 AM
We tend to see only this short sojourn in the veil of flesh. God knows He will perfect, bring to completion what concerns us: to be formed in the image and likeness of God That has to continue beyond the body of this humiliation or God is a liar.

Thus, are we not to strive for the higher principle in this life?

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect."

Wars are the backdrop of this world which derive from the hearts of men, opposing the things of God; the fruit of the Spirit. If something is not good, right and just one-hundred percent of the time at the spiritual level than its not truth. As for defense and offense (operating out of fear) given the mind of men, those are two different things.

"Spiritual things run upward, ascending; not down."

It is the serpent, or spineless ego that goes down from the mind. Look at the word ego, spelled backwards (ogee), it is a double curve that meets at a given point, such as in the a classical framework of a doorway in century old churches. Where man has sat on the throne of his mind, promoting or exalting himself as the "old man" of authority.

Positional preference is a learned behavior, it's not about a separate entity (i.e. Moslem vs. Christianity or Satan for that matter)

A practical test of a belief is whether it has a universal application, as in "All the inhabitants" will learn righteousness because "All" have fallen short; letting the soul instruct the Spirit, instead of walking in the Spirit.

Jesus said, "Follow Me." (In Spirit and Truth)
He did Not say to follow the doctrines which are from the souls of men.

Blessed are ALL peacemakers in my humble opinion.

Quote from: sheila on October 25, 2009, 11:16:26 PM
  Jesus said, at present ,my kingdom is not of this world,

  if it were, then[John 18;36] my servants would fight to

prevent my arrest by the jews,But now,my kingdom is from

another place.Now David's kingdom was of this world..a

nation specifically and uniquely set apart as God's chosen

people, a nation in the midst of many nations[a king given at

the request of the people to be like other nations around them]


  David could not build the house of the Lord because he was a

man of war.Warring  in the manner of flesh and blood..CAN

serve as an accurate shadow of the Kingdom of God, in that

spiritual warfare precedes and defends the Kingdom and

delivers into a peaceful reign. As David's warring was

prepartory in storing up provisions for Solomon to build with.

[there is a time for war and a time for peace]A peaceful reign

can be wrested and end by turning your heart from God


  
    All the scriptures is a story told of God as He speaks and

causes to come to pass His word and plan. As it unfolds

there are certain 'principalities" that would attempt to

corrupt the story line.


   For instance,Judah's  two sons were struck dead by God for

purposely spilling their seed on the ground,to prevent

conception by Tamar. Now, many men have done this very

thing..and were not struck dead immediately by God. What was

at issue was the promised seed of the line of Judah being

fulfilled as the Word of God come in flesh.What was being

messed with was the linage of the lion of the tribe of Judah


  Now, Tamar played the prostitute to eventually get that seed

and Judah had to admit 'she is more righteous than I'


  Now David commited adultery with Bathsheba and had her

huband killed, however,he wasn't struck dead by God

immediately..his son born to Bathsheba was. But the lineage

come down through Solomon by Bathsheba through another son.


  He is not a respector of persons, but He is a respector of HIS

FULILLED WORD AND ANY INTERFERENCE WITH IT'S

  FULFILLMENT IS SWIFTLY DEALT WITH.


  Some He deals with to serve as types and shadows for us..

  Annais and Sapphira..they are not the last ones to lie to the

Holy spirit..but their swift judgement serves as a type for

what awaits those that do. They served as an example for what

awaits lying spirits in opposition to the spirit of God. Annais

and Sapphira are delivered from that lying spirit and are fine,in

heaven. But any lying spirit messing with the fulfillment of

God's word through the Holy spirit will think twice about  that

maneuver again.


  The little children have not understood many of such things

and may judge our Father's actions  as very  harsh.


  Ecc 3  There is a time for everything,and a season for every

activity under heaven...a time for war,and a time for peace


  take a purse..don't take a purse....

     Sheila
 

Sheila this was the answer i was looking for.
You explained how God was preserving his purpose and not letting anything stand in the way, and it made a lot of sense to me.  I cant thank you enough for your reply here.  I just have to have some doubts settled in my mind before i can press on, im afraid to go to deep with something that i might later regret, but at the same time i know God is a million times more moral than myself or anyone else, sometimes as a human living in this sometimes cruel and horrible planet i just need to hear it.

Quote from: Nancy on October 26, 2009, 12:51:13 AM
Hi there JHAK (Jesushandsarekind for short)

I agree with you that the bible does seem strange at times.  God is love. Period.

Didn't Christ rebuke the Pharisees because they searched the scriptures thinking that they would find eternal life through them!  Words kill but the Spirit gives life. Religious people do it today, following the commandments, struggling to not do this or that and only getting worse and having less peace.

I am coming to the conclusion that not the whole bible is divinely inspired, how could it be with 'God' telling people to do that to each other?
Maybe the Israelites saw 'God' through their own eyes.

There is a story that i read concerning a Sufi mystic who crossed out a line in the Koran because it didn't ring true to her. It was the line, 'Hate the devil'.  When someone questioned her, she said that she couldn't hate the devil or anyone, because she was so full of the love of God, so as that line didn't ring true to her, she crossed it out.

Godbless
Nancy

Nancy i understand but, to me, either the Bible is the word of God or it isn't, it's that simple to me.  I don't want to score parts of it out and add parts in to suit myself, because I would always know that I was lieing to myself, and always know that under that part i scored out it still said what it said.  Rather i look at these doubts and try to find answers to them, to help myself and also to help others i might come across with the same doubts.  Some of the answers on here has been great and it has satisfied me that God was doing what he had to do at a particular time in history to particular people to get us where we are now.  I am confident he used apparent 'bad' for good.

Quote from: reFORMer on October 26, 2009, 01:56:54 AM
While the day will come when all of humanity will study war no more, for now, you'd have to agree there are armies in this world.  God will have the last word and He has his hand in every pot.  If men are cookin', God's a lookin'.  Our culture is very feminizing.  All the way from not allowing the use of masculine adjectives for humanity in general to virtually requiring males to keep their faces hairless like females.  We are taught subservience is kindness.  Standing up for what is right is seen as an unnecessary rocking the boat.  It's usually difficult to see beyond our cultural bias.

There are armies and God uses them even in today's world without their permission.  Believe it or not, there are Godly soldiers and even armies fighting just wars.  They're not as spiritually developed as Elijah or Paul; but, how advanced are you?  If I support His word that "You shall not kill" and do so with all my soul, heart, strength and mind, as He did say I should love Him (hence, His word,) then I am justifying self defense, defending my family and even country.  We very well could see Moslem terrorists making a big difference in how we live in this country.  That will make a lot of people come to stand against what is evil and others cringe in fear.  One brother prophesied that in public schools they would allow time for the Moslem children to pray, but not allow Christian children the same right because of fear.

God can look at life and death different than we do.  He slays and makes alive.  People can't do that.  He also knows how we all will be changed.  We mostly just see a few breaths here and then we're gone.  Look at how distorted some people's character can be.  Some raised by dogs, if not gotten to young enough, never learn to talk.  The bones in their legs are permanently fused from running around on their knees.  People spending a lifetime in prison are not allowed to develop in many ways.  Some are sold into sexual slavery as children.  We tend to see only this short sojourn in the veil of flesh.  God knows He will perfect, bring to completion what concerns us:  to be formed in the image and likeness of God.  That has to continue beyond the body of this humiliation or God is a liar.

Cutting, slicing words here Reformer, and i fully agree.  God is doing whats best for everyone, whether anyone realizes it or not.

Quote from: peacemaker on October 26, 2009, 04:24:26 AM

Quote from: reFORMer on October 26, 2009, 01:56:54 AM
We tend to see only this short sojourn in the veil of flesh. God knows He will perfect, bring to completion what concerns us: to be formed in the image and likeness of God That has to continue beyond the body of this humiliation or God is a liar.

Thus, are we not to strive for the higher principle in this life?

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect."

Wars are the backdrop of this world which derive from the hearts of men, opposing the things of God; the fruit of the Spirit. If something is not good, right and just one-hundred percent of the time at the spiritual level than its not truth. As for defense and offense (operating out of fear) given the mind of men, those are two different things.

"Spiritual things run upward, ascending; not down."

It is the serpent, or spineless ego that goes down from the mind. Look at the word ego, spelled backwards (ogee), it is a double curve that meets at a given point, such as in the a classical framework of a doorway in century old churches. Where man has sat on the throne of his mind, promoting or exalting himself as the "old man" of authority.

Positional preference is a learned behavior, it's not about a separate entity (i.e. Moslem vs. Christianity or Satan for that matter)

A practical test of a belief is whether it has a universal application, as in "All the inhabitants" will learn righteousness because "All" have fallen short; letting the soul instruct the Spirit, instead of walking in the Spirit.

Jesus said, "Follow Me." (In Spirit and Truth)
He did Not say to follow the doctrines which are from the souls of men.

Blessed are ALL peacemakers in my humble opinion.

Peacemaker thanks for taking the time to respond to my post, it was very helpful.

I really think that perhaps i have been guilty here of taking words out of context...Just showing a passage of scripture that seems pretty nasty but without reading into the full story.

I have said things in my life that were taken the wrong way, or 'taken out of context' or just not understood by people.
Thats why i believe i have to have more patience that when i come across one of these passages i dont like i have to just sit back and say
"Ok, well this cant be bad as it appears because God is love, lets just chill out and look at the logic and find out as much about this passage as i can before i make a judgement on it".

Just the other day i was talking about my illness (depression) and i said to someone "Im glad i have it".
They didnt understand what i meant at first.  How could i be glad i was so miserable i couldnt even bring myself to speak at times?
What i meant was that it humbled me and made me a better person...I like myself more now, and i appreciate and love others more as a result of the illness.  The illness will (is) passing and im learning a lot from it.  If i had just gone on the way i had before without suffering i wouldnt have learnt a lot of things i have learned lately and would have been miserable my whole life.  At least this way i get to hit rock bottom, and as you know when your flat on your back the only way to look is up....Or when your down on your knees, all you can do is pray.

Thats a good thing for me.  Even Jesus had to suffer in the body.
Paul says he who suffers in the body is done with sin.
I hope i will be too, because sin almost destroyed me, but God pulled me out, slapped me around a bit (and still is), and knocked some sense into me, and i love him for it because to me its evident he cared enough to help, although admittedly it doesnt feel like help sometimes, but I feel i know him pretty well and trust that this is for my own good.

Amen! God's hands

  Sometimes He 'dungs' us to  increase fruitfulness.

   Luke 13;6 -9

   v8 Sir,the man replied,'leave it alone for one more year,and I'll dig around it and fertilize it.If it bears fruit next year,fine! If not,then cut it down."

   I was afflicted also..hemmed in....and it resulted in much
  spiritual growth.....sometimes when surrounded by great suffering and evil..it makes us turn to God in a way we wouldn't have,otherwise.

   Psalms 119;71,75 

   It was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees

   I know,O'Lord, that your laws are righteous, and in faithfulness you have afflicted me.

 :cloud9: I have lived most all of my life in a "dung pile", waiting for the fullness of joy that comes in the morning. Without it, I would have never pressed in to see His face/nature.

Glad you are seeing a glimpse of His sovereignty, Marc. It will serve you well. Blessings guys.....

 Oh yes!  I can relate.. :thumbsup:

Remember Job who realized the strength that comes from adversity as well as the satisfaction that comes from God's blessing — and with NO HEDGE!

hi there,

I'm not disagreeing that ALL things happen for a purpose and usually at times of crisis, people realise what is important in life.  So if anything brings you closer to God, it is a good thing.
But i'm starting to believe that as God is within us at all times, surely it is WE who are resisting God blessings, not the other way round.
As reFORMer says, man allows the ego to be king and it believes God has enemies that need to be conquered.  How could God have any enemies?

But jesushandsarekindhands, everybody believes that their scriptures are the right ones and that they are divinely inspired and i personally believe that all scriptures have come from the divine, but why this insistence that only your particular belief system is the right one.
Truth is truth and God doesn't change with a particular belief.  He can't!
But i don't need the bible to be perfect as i can look at nature and within to know what God is and what He is not.

Godbless
Nancy

Quote from: NancyHow could God have any enemies?

God says he has enemies.


7The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.

8But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.

9What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

--Nahum 1

Hi there Molly,
If God had enemies, then He would be divided against Himself. How can God be divided?
God IS love not God loves'.  God IS LOVE!!!  And love CANNOT have enemies. We don't understand the language that the bible was written in or what was meant by that comment.  But if God can have enemies, then why did Christ say love your enemies. You cannot love anyone whom you perceive to be an enemy.  I believe Christ was saying 'See nobody as an enemy then you will love them.

Godbless
Nancy

Then what would be the point in loving enemies Nancy? 
Even sinners love those who love them.
I can assure you this...God has enemies!
I mean, they crucified Jesus, calling him an enemy for starters!

The challenge is to love our enemies.
You said "you cant love someone who you perceive as an enemy".
Well, maybe you can't...But you are supposed to!

Hmmm ive read a few of your posts and i disagree with most of what you say, but thanks for your input none the less, but its very unbiblical from what i can see.

Quote from: Nancy on October 29, 2009, 07:40:56 PM
hi there,

I'm not disagreeing that ALL things happen for a purpose and usually at times of crisis, people realise what is important in life.  So if anything brings you closer to God, it is a good thing.
But i'm starting to believe that as God is within us at all times, surely it is WE who are resisting God blessings, not the other way round.
As reFORMer says, man allows the ego to be king and it believes God has enemies that need to be conquered.  How could God have any enemies?

But jesushandsarekindhands, everybody believes that their scriptures are the right ones and that they are divinely inspired and i personally believe that all scriptures have come from the divine, but why this insistence that only your particular belief system is the right one.
Truth is truth and God doesn't change with a particular belief.  He can't!
But i don't need the bible to be perfect as i can look at nature and within to know what God is and what He is not.

Godbless
Nancy

Does nature show you a good God?  Or is it to you evidence of the destructive power of sin?
Do you find it nice when a lion rips into a wildebeast and see an all loving God behind it or nice when a child is born with no arms or legs or with a disease?  Im just curious.  The bible hints and why these things go on.

Nature shows me that something is far wrong in the world and the Bible gives the answer.

I also believe the Bible to be the only word of God because i believe mankind needs a saviour and by works (ourselves) 'we can do nothing' as our goodness is filthy rags before God....Quite a big difference from other religions really.

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on October 30, 2009, 12:54:34 AM
Then what would be the point in loving enemies Nancy? 
Even sinners love those who love them.
I can assure you this...God has enemies!
I mean, they crucified Jesus, calling him an enemy for starters!

The challenge is to love our enemies.
You said "you cant love someone who you perceive as an enemy".
Well, maybe you can't...But you are supposed to!

Hmmm ive read a few of your posts and i disagree with most of what you say, but thanks for your input none the less, but its very unbiblical from what i can see.

Rom 11:28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Col 1:21  And you, being in time past alienated and enemies in your mind in your evil works,

"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son." -- Romans 5:10

Col. 1:21. "The carnal mind is enmity against God," Rom. 8:7

Matthew
Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


God has enemies but loves them, and we are to do the same, i don't see what is so hard to grasp about that.  If there were no enemies to love, what would we be doing more than 'the tax collectors' and 'pagans'.

You can't say that someone who tries to stab you, rape your mother and shoot your dog isn't an enemy.  They ARE an enemy, but we are still to reach out in love...That is the greatness of God (love).

 :boyheart:

Quote from: Nancy on October 30, 2009, 12:31:05 AM
Hi there Molly,
If God had enemies, then He would be divided against Himself. How can God be divided?
God IS love not God loves'.  God IS LOVE!!!  And love CANNOT have enemies. We don't understand the language that the bible was written in or what was meant by that comment.  But if God can have enemies, then why did Christ say love your enemies. You cannot love anyone whom you perceive to be an enemy.  I believe Christ was saying 'See nobody as an enemy then you will love them.

Godbless
Nancy

Jesus didn't say "Dont see your enemies as an enemy, because you CANT love an enemy".

He said "Love your enemies".

That's good enough for me, because when people start to distort scripture and say
"This is what i think Jesus meant"..
.. before we know it we have a world that believes in a lunatic who burns people in flames forever. 

Scripture says what it says, and we should accept it.

"Having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself;

Col 1:20 

For your consideration.  Blessings.

http://sigler.org/seed1.htm

"He has broken down the middle wall of partition between us, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of two, (the Jew, the Gentile, the saved the lost), one new man so making peace. And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross."

2Co 5:16  Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

IMO, to be "born again" is to have a totally new identity, and even a new concept about who you are; not a change in God's view of me.  but a Waking up to WHO I AM. 


"Awake you who are sleeping. Arise from the dead, and Christ shall shine on you." Ephesians 5:14

The mind of Christ,

I and the FATHER (ABBA) are one. 


"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross; having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in the cross.

2Co 10:5  Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

"This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart" (Eph. 4:17-18).

hi,

As you rightly say,  'before we know it we have a world that believes a lunatic is going to burn everyone in flames forever'.  Forever being the operative word, because in the bible, it has been grossly distorted as are others words. 

How could a HEBREW AND ARAMAIC language be translated properly into English with all its nuances.  We have trouble understanding people of different nations today, never mind over 2 thousand years ago.  And also what Jesus says in the new testament is hardly anything than what He taught His disciples in secret.  Christ even said that there are things that cannot be taught to the masses because they wouldn't understand it.

Jesus spoke on 2 levels.  One for the people and one for the initiated/disciples.

I totally respect that you don't agree with my views.

Brilliant post though. You are getting us all to think!
Godbless
Nancy

Quote from: Nancy on October 30, 2009, 12:03:24 PM
hi,

As you rightly say,  'before we know it we have a world that believes a lunatic is going to burn everyone in flames forever'.  Forever being the operative word, because in the bible, it has been grossly distorted as are others words. 

How could a HEBREW AND ARAMAIC language be translated properly into English with all its nuances.  We have trouble understanding people of different nations today, never mind over 2 thousand years ago.  And also what Jesus says in the new testament is hardly anything than what He taught His disciples in secret.  Christ even said that there are things that cannot be taught to the masses because they wouldn't understand it.

Jesus spoke on 2 levels.  One for the people and one for the initiated/disciples.

I totally respect that you don't agree with my views.

Brilliant post though. You are getting us all to think!
Godbless
Nancy

Nancy, i know 'forever' was mistranslated, that kind of proves my point about what happens when people try to make the Bible say something it doesnt say.

When a passage clearly says "Love your enemies' however, there is no other way to read it, it is very clear to me.

Quote from: Zeek on October 30, 2009, 03:14:29 AM
"Having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself;

Col 1:20 

Yes God made peace, it does not say his 'enemies' have accepted that peace, they are still enemies therefore God has enemies just like I have enemies...I can't make them friends as hard as I can try, they will always be an enemy because they won't meet me halfway and it's the same with God, although I know that one day God will 'be all in all' and win his enemies over with his great love.

I have an enemy who hates everything about me. 
That person is convinced in their own mind that I am their enemy which i am not, i tried to be their friend and what they believe about me is completely wrong and comes from their own minds.
Nevertheless, until they realize that or admit that they were wrong about me, they will continue to be an 'enemy' or 'adversary' because they are 'working against me', not 'with' me, hence 'enemy', or 'at emnity'.
I don't want it to be that way, on the contrary i want this person as a friend more than anyone could ever know and have tried many times, but this person prefers to be an enemy because (dun dun dun...That person is evil).
I don't feel warm and fuzzy all over having to admit that, i wish it wasn't so, but it is so, and i have to accept that they will always be my enemy until they realize that i wasn't their enemy after all...They made me THEIR enemy.
In short, I'm reaching out and they are not, and if anyone ever asked that person what I was to them they would not hesitate in saying "HES AN ENEMY!!!!".

Quote from: Zeek on October 30, 2009, 03:16:23 AM
For your consideration.  Blessings.

http://sigler.org/seed1.htm

I haven't got much time to read this today, but I have copied all the chapters onto my PC and will read it soon, from what i have read it looks spot on, thank you Zeek.

hi,

Jesushandsarekindhands, that person can see YOU as an enemy (you cannot change their mind about you) but you can choose whether to see them as an enemy or not.
I believe Christ is saying when you don't have any enemies, it is easier to love 'them'.

Godbless
Nancy

hi again Jesushandsarekindhands,

Forgive me.  I think i am misunderstanding you.
You are saying that there are people who are against God aren't you, not that God has got enemies, has got people He doesn't like!!

Sorry
Godbless
Nancy

Hey Nancy no probs, its easy to misunderstand on forums, im the worlds worst for that.

i think you know what im saying now; in short - God loves everyone, but not everyone loves God. (At this present time).

hi ya jesushandsarekindhands,

Yes i totally understand now (phew)!
But you know God is ok with that and we certainly don't have to defend Him as some 'religious' people think they have to.

Godbless
Nancy

Quote from: Nancy on October 31, 2009, 09:21:34 PM
hi ya jesushandsarekindhands,

Yes i totally understand now (phew)!
But you know God is ok with that and we certainly don't have to defend Him as some 'religious' people think they have to.

Godbless
Nancy

Yes, i think God is completely able to defend himself!

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on October 23, 2009, 04:29:09 PM
"I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the Lord: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them. A curse on him who is lax in doing the Lord's work! A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed." [Jer. 13:14; 48:10]

Can anyone explain this?

There is another part in the Bible (which i cant find), but in my NIV (somewhere it says)

"Stone them to death! Be the first to stone them!".


Sometimes i just think about living a life of as much love as i can, and leaving the Bible far behind.

Hi JHAKH. My take is that when you stop seeing the sword as physical and start to see Spiritually what God is saying, then the words, while carnally understood by carnal people and therefore carnally fulfilled, take on a meaning more applicable to putting to death the "old man of sin" within us.

The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Those who see God's words with a carnal mind will see the complete reverse from what those who see those same words with a spiritual mind. That's my understanding on it for what it is worth.

 :cloud9:  :thumbsup:

JHAKH,
You said in one post that you sometimes feel that you would like to leave the bible far behind.  Maybe that is the Spirit telling you to give it a rest for a while and observe nature and feel His presence in silence.
Maybe you will think me a devil for saying this because you have been taught that to be a good 'christian' you have to read the bible.  Where did St. Paul get his teachings from? Certainly not from the OT or the gospels, they weren't even written yet.  He got them directly from the Spirit.
Be restful, at peace with the Spirit, let Him teach you.

Godbless
Nancy

With respect Seth; to me bloodshed, however way you want to view it is 'bloodshed'.  Spirits don't bleed.

Trying to read this 'spiritually' looks like an excuse to me to be honest, to just simply whisk away a seemingly 'bad' passage.  If i told an atheist he wasn't reading this passage spiritually and he was just carnally minded he would laugh in my face and rightly accuse me of making excuses for the 'bad' parts in the Bible.

EG stoning someone to death, does mean stoning. 
That's why we find even people in the NT trying to stone Jesus etc....The Jews knew exactly what God meant when he said "Stone them to death".  Or 'you shall not suffer a witch to live' etc etc.

I respect your opinion however.

Quote from: Nancy on November 03, 2009, 11:50:41 AM
JHAKH,
You said in one post that you sometimes feel that you would like to leave the bible far behind.  Maybe that is the Spirit telling you to give it a rest for a while and observe nature and feel His presence in silence.
Maybe you will think me a devil for saying this because you have been taught that to be a good 'christian' you have to read the bible.  Where did St. Paul get his teachings from? Certainly not from the OT or the gospels, they weren't even written yet.  He got them directly from the Spirit.
Be restful, at peace with the Spirit, let Him teach you.

Godbless
Nancy

Well Nancy, more and more recently I have been trusting more in my feelings and what God has done in my life, rather than on what people have written about him which much of has been lost in translation or mistranslated. 

Years ago when I inwardly 'knew' by revelation that God would save all, what i knew about God was battling with the writings about God that were saying that God will burn most of mankind in flames forever.  I still believed deep inside that God wasn't like that, that there must have been some kind of translation error...I knew something was wrong.
Then of course i found out about theons and aeons and how the word hell was added etc etc and it confirmed what i inwardly already knew.

Its a very strange and sometimes overwhelming subject that i sometimes need a rest from, and i do take frequent rests.  I'm not sure I could give up altogether, but i do feel like it sometimes because sometimes it feels like im not getting anywhere,  the only thing that has kept me looking for God over the years has been the 'miracles' he did in my life which to me were beyond all understanding and chance....  If it wasn't for them, I really very much doubt I would be here right now.  I feel i have been led here, and feel i am being led to start a Universalist church or group in my area, but i'm not doing anything until God gives me a clear go ahead (if he does).  I'll just have to see what happens, as it stands I don't have the faith to preach to others yet.

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on November 03, 2009, 01:31:51 PM
With respect Seth; to me bloodshed, however way you want to view it is 'bloodshed'.  Spirits don't bleed.

Trying to read this 'spiritually' looks like an excuse to me to be honest, to just simply whisk away a seemingly 'bad' passage.  If i told an atheist he wasn't reading this passage spiritually and he was just carnally minded he would laugh in my face and rightly accuse me of making excuses for the 'bad' parts in the Bible.

EG stoning someone to death, does mean stoning. 
That's why we find even people in the NT trying to stone Jesus etc....The Jews knew exactly what God meant when he said "Stone them to death".  Or 'you shall not suffer a witch to live' etc etc.

I respect your opinion however.

HI JHAKH,

Bloodshed and stoning mean different things to the carnal and the spiritual.

Do you agree there are two different swords? An earthy weapon of steel, and the Word of God?

Paul said that we have weapons of war, but they are not carnal weapons. Physical things have a spiritual counterpart. That is the essence of scriptural metaphors and it is how God veiled the truth.

You have to be very careful about viewing Spiritual discernment as "an excuse."

hi ya JHAKH,

hi there JHAKH,
have you heard of Lionel Fanthorpe. His book Mysteries of the bible is very thought provoking.
it may be what you are looking for clarity in your views.
Godbless
Nancy

.

 :cloud9: Cute image for illustration, but really, it's the "wrong" one. The image should be of the High Priest since the elements of "armor" relate to the High Priest's garments. Blessings......

So when God said two men who lie together are to be stoned to death what happened to them?  Were they stoned to death?  Or were they spiritually stoned? 

Somethings one can view something as spiritual, other times, one cannot.

Leviticus 20

9 " 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.

10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

11 " 'If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

12 " 'If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.

13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

14 " 'If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.

15 " 'If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal.

16 " 'If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

17 " 'If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible.

18 " 'If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people.

19 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of you would be held responsible.

20 " 'If a man sleeps with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They will be held responsible; they will die childless.

21 " 'If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity; he has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on November 04, 2009, 12:39:27 AM
So when God said two men who lie together are to be stoned to death what happened to them?  Were they stoned to death?  Or were they spiritually stoned? 

No they were not spiritually stoned. Please take into account what I said: Carnal people, who understand carnal things will carnally fulfill the words. As it happens, that was all they could do because carnal minds were all they had at their disposal.

When spiritual understanding comes, one begins to realize that the adulterer, and the murderer is not "out there" but in you and me. That's the one who needs stoning and the blood of the Sword (word of God). Yet the carnal man looks outward first, not inward first, and that is why instead of putting the adulterer to death in themselves, they were looking for other people to kill...

However, do not assume that just because it was ordered by God, that it was fulfilled as commanded..at least not very often. As Peter said, the Law was very hard to bear. Alot of folks simply didn't do as commanded because it was too much to bear. You didn't see alot of Pharisees stoning people in Jesus time, because it would have been a slaughterfest. If Jesus wasn't there, do you think the Pharisees would have pulled the adulteress out and stoned her? Maybe, but I think not. They would have to stone much of the population....then they wouldn't be so revered.

Just curious, Seth - how do you reconcile the idea that those commands are spiritual in nature with the fact that elsewhere in Leviticus, such as Leviticus 22:14, there are commands where the punishment for failing to keep them is clearly not spiritual in nature?  What is the tip-off that can let someone know that the "put to death" passages are not also supposed to be taken literally?

Quote from: Gab on November 04, 2009, 03:16:13 AM
Just curious, Seth - how do you reconcile the idea that those commands are spiritual in nature with the fact that elsewhere in Leviticus, such as Leviticus 22:14, there are commands where the punishment for failing to keep them is clearly not spiritual in nature?  What is the tip-off that can let someone know that the "put to death" passages are not also supposed to be taken literally?

Well, I didn't say that God did not mean for them take them to take an outward fulfillment; they were not given eyes to see that the Law testified about Christ. To say that God did not mean for them to carnally fulfill the Law would be to say that God didn't have a clue as to their given natures. But IF they had eyes to see, they would have fulfilled the Law in an inward fashion. Until then, the Law was in an outward fashion.

All this I believe to be the architecture of God. I don't want to make myself misunderstood by saying that God never "intended" for them to fulfill the Law outwardly, only that they were not meant to understand the true MEANING behind the words.

QuoteSomethings one can view something as spiritual, other times, one cannot.

Romans 7
14We know that the law is spiritual

You see, it doesn't say "We know that SOME of the Law is spiritual" it says "The law is spiritual." The question is, how much of the Spirit can we see in the law? I may not understand every shadow in the Law, but I know that EVERY part of it is Spiritual, and that spiritual discernment is needed to know that the Law is to be fulfilled by Christ, ALL of it, and that fulfillment occurs within us.

Amen.
The law was put in the arc and the Mercy Seat (CHRIST) above it.

Blessed Rebecca.

Quarries are full of stones, but the culminating point is that of their own guilt and shame, which is upon them.  And the measure at the lower end is expressed in terms of being dead. Thus, the people wanted to stone the woman for adultery, forgetting that it takes two?

"Who will cast the fist stone; a precious stone of forgiveness, or that of lapidating?"

One reason,  I think God has operated in ways like that, is because it makes it harder for people to believe in God and the Word in general. It makes it impossible for many people accually,  for a while only. As God intended.    God is into keeping himself hidden from the World.  He reveals himself only to those who he foreordained  . And those God has foreordained,  are gifted to be able to believe in God,  NO MATTER WHAT. They will still have struggles sometimes.  But they will always overcome, by the power of the Spirit, through faith, working by love.    Scriptures like what you mentioned may bother temporarily,  but the Spirit will empower  believers to TRUST God instead!  After all,  God is love AND omnipotent. God knows the end from the beginning.  So,  ANY person who EVER went through any horrible, evil, painful experience,   it was preplanned by an omnipotent God of love!  That means that God  prepared and enabled ALL those people to endure and go through all the very difficult experiences.  Those experiences look worse to our limited minds which see only through a glass darkly.   But make no mistake,  God had, has, and always will have,   EVERYTHING in control!  :happy3:
 

Quote from: fullarmor2 on November 04, 2009, 05:12:02 AM
God is into keeping himself hidden from the World.  

There are two kinds of people:

One to whom belief is more precious than truth, and
the other to whom truth is more precious than belief.

"Truth doesn't hide itself, it contains nothing false."

Quote from: fullarmor2 on November 04, 2009, 05:12:02 AM
One reason,  I think God has operated in ways like that, is because it makes it harder for people to believe in God and the Word in general. It makes it impossible for many people accually,  for a while only. As God intended.    God is into keeping himself hidden from the World.  He reveals himself only to those who he foreordained  . And those God has foreordained,  are gifted to be able to believe in God,  NO MATTER WHAT. They will still have struggles sometimes.  But they will always overcome, by the power of the Spirit, through faith, working by love.    Scriptures like what you mentioned may bother temporarily,  but the Spirit will empower  believers to TRUST God instead!  After all,  God is love AND omnipotent. God knows the end from the beginning.  So,  ANY person who EVER went through any horrible, evil, painful experience,   it was preplanned by an omnipotent God of love!  That means that God  prepared and enabled ALL those people to endure and go through all the very difficult experiences.  Those experiences look worse to our limited minds which see only through a glass darkly.   But make no mistake,  God had, has, and always will have,   EVERYTHING in control!  :happy3:
 

Wondeful post. Amen!  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Seth on November 04, 2009, 04:09:46 AM

Quote from: Gab on November 04, 2009, 03:16:13 AM
Just curious, Seth - how do you reconcile the idea that those commands are spiritual in nature with the fact that elsewhere in Leviticus, such as Leviticus 22:14, there are commands where the punishment for failing to keep them is clearly not spiritual in nature?  What is the tip-off that can let someone know that the "put to death" passages are not also supposed to be taken literally?

Well, I didn't say that God did not mean for them take them to take an outward fulfillment; they were not given eyes to see that the Law testified about Christ. To say that God did not mean for them to carnally fulfill the Law would be to say that God didn't have a clue as to their given natures. But IF they had eyes to see, they would have fulfilled the Law in an inward fashion. Until then, the Law was in an outward fashion.

All this I believe to be the architecture of God. I don't want to make myself misunderstood by saying that God never "intended" for them to fulfill the Law outwardly, only that they were not meant to understand the true MEANING behind the words.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.  You say that God did intend them to carnally fulfill their the Law, but then you say that they were really supposed to fulfill it in an inward fashion had they, in essence, known better.  Is it in some sense both, or what?  Why would he give them a command knowing that they would fulfill it in one way if he really ultimately wanted them to fulfill it in another way?

What is the evidence that this second hidden way of reading the text was intended to be conveyed?

Quote from: Gab on November 04, 2009, 07:44:56 AM
I'm not sure I understand what you mean.  You say that God did intend them to carnally fulfill their the Law, but then you say that they were really supposed to fulfill it in an inward fashion had they, in essence, known better.

Did I really say that they were supposed to fulfill it in any other way than they did? I only said that carnal people will carnally fulfill God's words. As it is, they couldn't be anything other than carnal.

QuoteWhy would he give them a command knowing that they would fulfill it in one way if he really ultimately wanted them to fulfill it in another way?

I think for the same reason He does anything knowing what the end result will be, because it fits into His plan.

QuoteWhat is the evidence that this second hidden way of reading the text was intended to be conveyed?

None, because the mystery of Christ was not to be revealed until much later. Remember, I wasn't saying that God intended for them to do anything other than what they did. My explanation in response to JHAKH is that the meaning of the two quotes scriptures were fulfilled in a carnal way, but that there is a much higher way for them to be fulfilled which has nothing to do with killing anyone other than the man of sin within them.

Eyes to see Christ in the Law simply were not given to them.

Quote from: Seth on November 04, 2009, 12:50:19 AM

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on November 04, 2009, 12:39:27 AM
So when God said two men who lie together are to be stoned to death what happened to them?  Were they stoned to death?  Or were they spiritually stoned? 

No they were not spiritually stoned. Please take into account what I said: Carnal people, who understand carnal things will carnally fulfill the words. As it happens, that was all they could do because carnal minds were all they had at their disposal.

When spiritual understanding comes, one begins to realize that the adulterer, and the murderer is not "out there" but in you and me. That's the one who needs stoning and the blood of the Sword (word of God). Yet the carnal man looks outward first, not inward first, and that is why instead of putting the adulterer to death in themselves, they were looking for other people to kill...

However, do not assume that just because it was ordered by God, that it was fulfilled as commanded..at least not very often. As Peter said, the Law was very hard to bear. Alot of folks simply didn't do as commanded because it was too much to bear. You didn't see alot of Pharisees stoning people in Jesus time, because it would have been a slaughterfest. If Jesus wasn't there, do you think the Pharisees would have pulled the adulteress out and stoned her? Maybe, but I think not. They would have to stone much of the population....then they wouldn't be so revered.

Interesting Seth.
I still wouldnt stone myself for working a Sabbath though, or for cursing my parents,  i find the OT rules pretty bizarre whichever way i look at them.
But great post, thank you.

Quote from: Seth on November 04, 2009, 04:21:51 AM

QuoteSomethings one can view something as spiritual, other times, one cannot.

Romans 7
14We know that the law is spiritual

You see, it doesn't say "We know that SOME of the Law is spiritual" it says "The law is spiritual." The question is, how much of the Spirit can we see in the law? I may not understand every shadow in the Law, but I know that EVERY part of it is Spiritual, and that spiritual discernment is needed to know that the Law is to be fulfilled by Christ, ALL of it, and that fulfillment occurs within us.

Hmmm very interesting Seth. 

Quote from: fullarmor2 on November 04, 2009, 05:12:02 AM
One reason,  I think God has operated in ways like that, is because it makes it harder for people to believe in God and the Word in general. It makes it impossible for many people accually,  for a while only. As God intended.    God is into keeping himself hidden from the World.  He reveals himself only to those who he foreordained  . And those God has foreordained,  are gifted to be able to believe in God,  NO MATTER WHAT. They will still have struggles sometimes.  But they will always overcome, by the power of the Spirit, through faith, working by love.    Scriptures like what you mentioned may bother temporarily,  but the Spirit will empower  believers to TRUST God instead!  After all,  God is love AND omnipotent. God knows the end from the beginning.  So,  ANY person who EVER went through any horrible, evil, painful experience,   it was preplanned by an omnipotent God of love!  That means that God  prepared and enabled ALL those people to endure and go through all the very difficult experiences.  Those experiences look worse to our limited minds which see only through a glass darkly.   But make no mistake,  God had, has, and always will have,   EVERYTHING in control!  :happy3:
 

Good post, thank you.

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on November 04, 2009, 02:59:37 PM

Quote from: Seth on November 04, 2009, 04:21:51 AM

QuoteSomethings one can view something as spiritual, other times, one cannot.

Romans 7
14We know that the law is spiritual

You see, it doesn't say "We know that SOME of the Law is spiritual" it says "The law is spiritual." The question is, how much of the Spirit can we see in the law? I may not understand every shadow in the Law, but I know that EVERY part of it is Spiritual, and that spiritual discernment is needed to know that the Law is to be fulfilled by Christ, ALL of it, and that fulfillment occurs within us.

Hmmm very interesting Seth. 

  wow , you have no idea what a blesssing it is to  read you guys exchanges!!!  :icon_flower:    praise the Lord!!! 

   I know that the law required blood ...  Jesus blood / life  is the  perfect 
but until he come
  the letter of the law kills
  the4 Spirit is life  :HeartThrob:  I see that as the difference
  both moses chosen of God was a bloody husband  because of the circumscision [paul describes this both natural and spiritual of the heart ] 

and David/beloved  was a bloody man also his son Solomon was given  the ''honor'' to build the  temple    Solomon  ''  son of peace ''
I find lots of
 
hidden tresures in the hidden name meanings    :HeartThrob:
 
seems the natual and spiritual Laws  are two types of witnesses   one of heaven and the other of earth  perhaps

 

I feel so 'unspiritual' now lol.

I have struggled with passages where on face value it seems God basically tells people to murder others. Back when I used to try and force mysef to believe in hell (i thought it was in the bible) I had to use the same logic as when I forced myself to accept god wanted his armies to kill women and children.

These days I just trust God that it must have been for a blummin good reason and unlike with the hell thang it would have only been a temporary suffering and then they would be asleep in the grave. And one day they will be in heaven and they can ask Him why themselves.

I think that maybe we cant fuly appreciate just how terrible sin is and how awful its consequences are for us in reality. Maybe God was being merciful, I dunno. I do know however that if God had not set out in books like Leviticus just how holy He is and what the price of sin is then I personally would never be able to appreciate just what a cost Christ paid on the cross. When we are in heaven it will all become clear and we'll be like, ooooooooh  :idea2: ping!

My  :2c: for what its worth  :gangel:

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on November 04, 2009, 02:58:05 PM

Quote from: Seth on November 04, 2009, 12:50:19 AM

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on November 04, 2009, 12:39:27 AM
So when God said two men who lie together are to be stoned to death what happened to them?  Were they stoned to death?  Or were they spiritually stoned? 

No they were not spiritually stoned. Please take into account what I said: Carnal people, who understand carnal things will carnally fulfill the words. As it happens, that was all they could do because carnal minds were all they had at their disposal.

When spiritual understanding comes, one begins to realize that the adulterer, and the murderer is not "out there" but in you and me. That's the one who needs stoning and the blood of the Sword (word of God). Yet the carnal man looks outward first, not inward first, and that is why instead of putting the adulterer to death in themselves, they were looking for other people to kill...

However, do not assume that just because it was ordered by God, that it was fulfilled as commanded..at least not very often. As Peter said, the Law was very hard to bear. Alot of folks simply didn't do as commanded because it was too much to bear. You didn't see alot of Pharisees stoning people in Jesus time, because it would have been a slaughterfest. If Jesus wasn't there, do you think the Pharisees would have pulled the adulteress out and stoned her? Maybe, but I think not. They would have to stone much of the population....then they wouldn't be so revered.

Interesting Seth.
I still wouldnt stone myself for working a Sabbath though, or for cursing my parents,  i find the OT rules pretty bizarre whichever way i look at them.
But great post, thank you.

Again, though, I don't think you are expected to stone yourself literally.

Now, I can't say for sure, but on the main post of this thread, I have this to say:

The Bible should brought into context with a specific time. I mean, we wouldn't say that God still curses those who don't partake in bloodshed. (Jesus even promoted the opposite: peace!)

Also... part of me seriously wonders if some of the Old Testament was written by people who claimed to hear from God, but were really trying to control people. I mean, seriously, threatening a curse on anybody that doesn't fight along side a certain army sounds like a threat from man, rather than God.

Quote from: Seth on November 04, 2009, 06:42:35 PM

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on November 04, 2009, 02:58:05 PM

Quote from: Seth on November 04, 2009, 12:50:19 AM

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on November 04, 2009, 12:39:27 AM
So when God said two men who lie together are to be stoned to death what happened to them?  Were they stoned to death?  Or were they spiritually stoned? 

No they were not spiritually stoned. Please take into account what I said: Carnal people, who understand carnal things will carnally fulfill the words. As it happens, that was all they could do because carnal minds were all they had at their disposal.

When spiritual understanding comes, one begins to realize that the adulterer, and the murderer is not "out there" but in you and me. That's the one who needs stoning and the blood of the Sword (word of God). Yet the carnal man looks outward first, not inward first, and that is why instead of putting the adulterer to death in themselves, they were looking for other people to kill...

However, do not assume that just because it was ordered by God, that it was fulfilled as commanded..at least not very often. As Peter said, the Law was very hard to bear. Alot of folks simply didn't do as commanded because it was too much to bear. You didn't see alot of Pharisees stoning people in Jesus time, because it would have been a slaughterfest. If Jesus wasn't there, do you think the Pharisees would have pulled the adulteress out and stoned her? Maybe, but I think not. They would have to stone much of the population....then they wouldn't be so revered.

Interesting Seth.
I still wouldnt stone myself for working a Sabbath though, or for cursing my parents,  i find the OT rules pretty bizarre whichever way i look at them.
But great post, thank you.

Again, though, I don't think you are expected to stone yourself literally.

Thanks Seth, great posts.  

hi there,

Tim B I agree with you totally.  Those words come from man not God.  All religions are about controlling people not allowing them freedom.  Exactly like Leviticus. God/truth doesn't change.  I don't believe that Jesus came to say that God had changed but He came to say that the Jewish people as they were taught were wrong about what Gods' character was like. That's why He was considered dangerous because He upturned the priests views of what God is really like and if believed the people would not need the priests anymore.

Godbless
Nancy

Quote from: Nancy on November 04, 2009, 11:44:06 PM
hi there,

Tim B I agree with you totally.  Those words come from man not God.  All religions are about controlling people not allowing them freedom.  Exactly like Leviticus. God/truth doesn't change.  I don't believe that Jesus came to say that God had changed but He came to say that the Jewish people as they were taught were wrong about what Gods' character was like. That's why He was considered dangerous because He upturned the priests views of what God is really like and if believed the people would not need the priests anymore.

Godbless
Nancy

2 Timothy 3:16

  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

So, i am on sides with Seth in many ways, the bible clearly says it is God breathed.  Jesus constantly quotes from the OT.
So although it would be easy to say -
"Oh it must be man that wrote that part because i dont like it and I SAID SO!", its not that simple.  ALL scripture is GOD BREATHED, even the parts we might not like.

So, we have to find a way to interperate them and like Seth says we are too look at it spiritually.

If we as a people are not even going to accept what our own 'GOOD BOOK' says, then we may as well just pack it all in and make a big fat IDOL for ourselves to worship instead, because Nancy, that is what you seem to have done.

If i did that, i wouldnt call myself a Christian, personally and certainly wouldnt hang around a Christian forum or website...it would be pointless, and i wouldnt want to corrupt other peoples views with my MAN MADE Beliefs.

 :cloud9: Just a revelation given me about the man that was stoned on the Sabbath day for picking up sticks.......

Sticks = wood/carnal nature

Stones = word/scriptures that have NOT been "struck" as the Rock was, to release
              the life/revelation of the Spirit within

Sabbath day = rest of the Spirit

And so to us those that walk in the new spiritual covenant, the message is....

That men will be adding to their carnal nature (sticks) on the Sabbath day/7th day, but we are to "stone them to death with stones", ie.  kill the carnal flesh nature with scriptures that HAVE BEEN  "struck" to bring forth the life of the Spirit to them.

This is how God's judgments are unto victory; it's a two edged sword. The letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life. Blessings....

JHAKH,
Who says it is OUR Good Book. From a very young age, priests, clergyman, parents, society have told us that it is OUR good book.  Do you ever stop to think that if you were born in a Muslim country the Koran would be YOUR good book, or if you were born in India, etc you know what i'm getting at.  Do you have to call yourself a christian or anything else?  For years i used to be hung up on what i called myself (and still do to a certain degree)  I was bought up a catholic but didn't believe that they held the truth so i un-catholicised myself!!  But i swore that i would never enter a protestant church!!!! Guess what!!!
We are constantly told to be a good christian you have to do xyz.  But do you?
I do not knowingly wish to corrupt anybodys' firmly held beliefs, just telling you mine. The truth doesn't hide, you cannot corrupt the truth with untruths. The truth always shows itself.
We all have to find the truth in our own ways JHAKH but surely we can discuss them openly and maturely.

Godbless
Nancy

Quote from: Nancy on November 05, 2009, 10:40:09 PM
JHAKH,
Who says it is OUR Good Book. From a very young age, priests, clergyman, parents, society have told us that it is OUR good book.  Do you ever stop to think that if you were born in a Muslim country the Koran would be YOUR good book, or if you were born in India, etc you know what i'm getting at.  Do you have to call yourself a christian or anything else?  For years i used to be hung up on what i called myself (and still do to a certain degree)  I was bought up a catholic but didn't believe that they held the truth so i un-catholicised myself!!  But i swore that i would never enter a protestant church!!!! Guess what!!!
We are constantly told to be a good christian you have to do xyz.  But do you?
I do not knowingly wish to corrupt anybodys' firmly held beliefs, just telling you mine. The truth doesn't hide, you cannot corrupt the truth with untruths. The truth always shows itself.
We all have to find the truth in our own ways JHAKH but surely we can discuss them openly and maturely.

Godbless
Nancy

Nancy, you said -
"Those words come from man not God.  All religions are about controlling people not allowing them freedom."

Now the Scriptures (Paul) says ALL scripture is GOD BREATHED...Your saying they are not, (because you don't like the parts in the OT where God orders people to kill people). 
That is idolitory, your making a God to suit yourself!  The bible says it is God breathed!  Im not the one making false statements here!

It would be very easy to pick and chose what parts of the Bible we believe and what parts we dont...Hell i could just ignore the whole book aside from the part where God says "Stone people for working the Sabbath", and every Sunday i could get the bag of stones out and start pelting people from my window!

What im saying is that either the Bible is Gods word or it isnt, its not for us to pick and chose parts, but to try to understand it better.

That was all i was saying, i really mean no harm by all this and understand where you are coming from, i just hope you 'get' what im saying to you here because we cant play tit for tat with the word of God, who are we to change it or say that we are right and St Paul wasnt?

Quote from: rosered on November 04, 2009, 03:11:33 PM

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on November 04, 2009, 02:59:37 PM

Quote from: Seth on November 04, 2009, 04:21:51 AM

QuoteSomethings one can view something as spiritual, other times, one cannot.

Romans 7
14We know that the law is spiritual

You see, it doesn't say "We know that SOME of the Law is spiritual" it says "The law is spiritual." The question is, how much of the Spirit can we see in the law? I may not understand every shadow in the Law, but I know that EVERY part of it is Spiritual, and that spiritual discernment is needed to know that the Law is to be fulfilled by Christ, ALL of it, and that fulfillment occurs within us.

Hmmm very interesting Seth. 

  wow , you have no idea what a blesssing it is to  read you guys exchanges!!!  :icon_flower:    praise the Lord!!! 

   I know that the law required blood ...  Jesus blood / life  is the  perfect 
but until he come
  the letter of the law kills
  the4 Spirit is life  :HeartThrob:  I see that as the difference
  both moses chosen of God was a bloody husband  because of the circumscision [paul describes this both natural and spiritual of the heart ] 

and David/beloved  was a bloody man also his son Solomon was given  the "honor" to build the  temple    Solomon  "  son of peace "
I find lots of
 
hidden tresures in the hidden name meanings    :HeartThrob:
 
seems the natual and spiritual Laws  are two types of witnesses   one of heaven and the other of earth  perhaps

 

Good stuff Rose,

I have been pondering this: Jesus Christ in the flesh was much like the Letter of the Law. When I realized that not even Peter was converted while Christ was in his earth ministry I started to see the similarities. Christ in the flesh healed people.....externally. Christ in the Spirit heals people....internally.

The Law was the externalized expression of God's righteousness....to the carnal mind which "cannot recieve the things of the Spirit, neither can he know them."

When Christ was resurrected, the Law, rather than being an enumerated lists of commandments by the letter, became one: namely, bear eachother's burdens. Basically, Love became ONE in him, rather than split apart into many different commandments.

But while Love is veiled in the flesh (Christ's flesh was a veil according to the scripture) the carnal mind sees outwardly. Jesus commanded them to drink his blood. That is a command. The carnal man could obey the command by killing an innocent man (Christ) and drinking his blood. Or, the Spiritual man can do the opposite, knowing that the blood, water and spirit testify of Christ. The carnal man would be trying to obey Christ and thinking that he was successfully doing so, but he never heard Christ's voice because Christ's words are Spirit and life.

What I see regarding the hard commandments in the Law, is God speaking over their heads. He was talking about the Messiah and they didn't even know that, which is why they obeyed the Law carnally. Why are we not to be judged for not observing the Sabbath as a day of the week? Because those things are the shadow and Christ is the body casting the shadow.

Same thing goes for stoning the adulterer. WHO IS THE ADULTERER? That is the question. The carnal man thinks the adulterer is this girl over here, or that guy over there. To the carnal man, the adulterer is never within himself. That's too hard to accept.

But, once spiritual discernment comes and the spiritual Law finally becomes known as an expression of Christ, we then can realize that God does want us to still stone the adulterer, ourselves. That is how (per Romans 6) that our old man dies and we can walk in newness of life, having no need to literally stone anyone else, because those things are a shadow cast by the body which is Christ.

Now, while I believe God knew their minds would understand carnally, and therefore his Law became a ministration of death, He has all authority in Heaven over earth to say "You may have thought you were obedient, but you had never heard my voice."

Paul said that as a Pharisee, concerning the Law he was nearly a perfect observer. And He also called himself the "chief sinner." How can a nearly perfect observer of the Law be simultaneously chief sinner? Because while he saw the letter, He hadn't heard the voice. He saw the words but did not hear the music, to quote Mark Twain.

Because someone hears a sentence, does not mean they understand the meaning of that sentence. And when a carnal man obeys the Law of Moses, he may think he is obeying, but because he is carnal, Moses, who he trusted is continually his accuser.

Quote from: Seth on November 05, 2009, 11:42:52 PM

Quote from: rosered on November 04, 2009, 03:11:33 PM

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on November 04, 2009, 02:59:37 PM

Quote from: Seth on November 04, 2009, 04:21:51 AM

QuoteSomethings one can view something as spiritual, other times, one cannot.

Romans 7
14We know that the law is spiritual

You see, it doesn't say "We know that SOME of the Law is spiritual" it says "The law is spiritual." The question is, how much of the Spirit can we see in the law? I may not understand every shadow in the Law, but I know that EVERY part of it is Spiritual, and that spiritual discernment is needed to know that the Law is to be fulfilled by Christ, ALL of it, and that fulfillment occurs within us.

Hmmm very interesting Seth. 

  wow , you have no idea what a blesssing it is to  read you guys exchanges!!!  :icon_flower:    praise the Lord!!! 

   I know that the law required blood ...  Jesus blood / life  is the  perfect 
but until he come
  the letter of the law kills
  the4 Spirit is life  :HeartThrob:  I see that as the difference
  both moses chosen of God was a bloody husband  because of the circumscision [paul describes this both natural and spiritual of the heart ] 

and David/beloved  was a bloody man also his son Solomon was given  the "honor" to build the  temple    Solomon  "  son of peace "
I find lots of
 
hidden tresures in the hidden name meanings    :HeartThrob:
 
seems the natual and spiritual Laws  are two types of witnesses   one of heaven and the other of earth  perhaps

 

Good stuff Rose,

I have been pondering this: Jesus Christ in the flesh was much like the Letter of the Law. When I realized that not even Peter was converted while Christ was in his earth ministry I started to see the similarities. Christ in the flesh healed people.....externally. Christ in the Spirit heals people....internally.

The Law was the externalized expression of God's righteousness....to the carnal mind which "cannot recieve the things of the Spirit, neither can he know them."

When Christ was resurrected, the Law, rather than being an enumerated lists of commandments by the letter, became one: namely, bear eachother's burdens. Basically, Love became ONE in him, rather than split apart into many different commandments.

But while Love is veiled in the flesh (Christ's flesh was a veil according to the scripture) the carnal mind sees outwardly. Jesus commanded them to drink his blood. That is a command. The carnal man could obey the command by killing an innocent man (Christ) and drinking his blood. Or, the Spiritual man can do the opposite, knowing that the blood, water and spirit testify of Christ. The carnal man would be trying to obey Christ and thinking that he was successfully doing so, but he never heard Christ's voice because Christ's words are Spirit and life.

What I see regarding the hard commandments in the Law, is God speaking over their heads. He was talking about the Messiah and they didn't even know that, which is why they obeyed the Law carnally. Why are we not to be judged for not observing the Sabbath as a day of the week? Because those things are the shadow and Christ is the body casting the shadow.

Same thing goes for stoning the adulterer. WHO IS THE ADULTERER? That is the question. The carnal man thinks the adulterer is this girl over here, or that guy over there. To the carnal man, the adulterer is never within himself. That's too hard to accept.

But, once spiritual discernment comes and the spiritual Law finally becomes known as an expression of Christ, we then can realize that God does want us to still stone the adulterer, ourselves. That is how (per Romans 6) that our old man dies and we can walk in newness of life, having no need to literally stone anyone else, because those things are a shadow cast by the body which is Christ.

Now, while I believe God knew their minds would understand carnally, and therefore his Law became a ministration of death, He has all authority in Heaven over earth to say "You may have thought you were obedient, but you had never heard my voice."

Paul said that as a Pharisee, concerning the Law he was nearly a perfect observer. And He also called himself the "chief sinner." How can a nearly perfect observer of the Law be simultaneously chief sinner? Because while he saw the letter, He hadn't heard the voice. He saw the words but did not hear the music, to quote Mark Twain.

Because someone hears a sentence, does not mean they understand the meaning of that sentence. And when a carnal man obeys the Law of Moses, he may think he is obeying, but because he is carnal, Moses, who he trusted is continually his accuser.

Seth out of curiosity, what would you make of God saying "Stone homosexuals"  (man sleeping with a man as one would a woman)?

What does that mean 'spiritually' to you?

Does it mean the same as the other passages?  That we are too look within ourselves first to see if we have done such things or had such longings?

I only ask because im gay and God really didnt seem to bothered about it, in fact i had a little revelation that he was cool with it as long as i didnt go sleeping around and was sincerly looking for love. 

 :cloud9: Good post Seth  :thumbsup: Blessings....

QuoteI have been pondering this: Jesus Christ in the flesh was much like the Letter of the Law. When I realized that not even Peter was converted while Christ was in his earth ministry I started to see the similarities. Christ in the flesh healed people.....externally. Christ in the Spirit heals people....internally.

The Law was the externalized expression of God's righteousness....to the carnal mind which "cannot recieve the things of the Spirit, neither can he know them."

When Christ was resurrected, the Law, rather than being an enumerated lists of commandments by the letter, became one: namely, bear eachother's burdens. Basically, Love became ONE in him, rather than split apart into many different commandments.

But while Love is veiled in the flesh (Christ's flesh was a veil according to the scripture) the carnal mind sees outwardly.

What I see regarding the hard commandments in the Law, is God speaking over their heads. He was talking about the Messiah and they didn't even know that, which is why they obeyed the Law carnally. Why are we not to be judged for not observing the Sabbath as a day of the week? Because those things are the shadow and Christ is the body casting the shadow.

Same thing goes for stoning the adulterer. WHO IS THE ADULTERER? That is the question. The carnal man thinks the adulterer is this girl over here, or that guy over there. To the carnal man, the adulterer is never within himself. That's too hard to accept.

But, once spiritual discernment comes and the spiritual Law finally becomes known as an expression of Christ, we then can realize that God does want us to still stone the adulterer, ourselves. That is how (per Romans 6) that our old man dies and we can walk in newness of life, having no need to literally stone anyone else, because those things are a shadow cast by the body which is Christ.

Now, while I believe God knew their minds would understand carnally, and therefore his Law became a ministration of death, He has all authority in Heaven over earth to say "You may have thought you were obedient, but you had never heard my voice."

Paul said that as a Pharisee, concerning the Law he was nearly a perfect observer. And He also called himself the "chief sinner." How can a nearly perfect observer of the Law be simultaneously chief sinner? Because while he saw the letter, He hadn't heard the voice. He saw the words but did not hear the music, to quote Mark Twain.

Because someone hears a sentence, does not mean they understand the meaning of that sentence. And when a carnal man obeys the Law of Moses, he may think he is obeying, but because he is carnal, Moses, who he trusted is continually his accuser.

 wow!!    great posting ,  I have noticed  you   believe alot along the same  lines as I do

 you just much better express your thoughts  Bro Seth ,
   good thoughts too ..
 I so agree we could   nor cannot see  with spirtual eyes  till the Lord come to  heal us   give us the new eyes , ears to hear and  mainly heart to understand , the start of His earthly ministry        and open show of things in the new covenant .
 I really liked the part  you  brought up about     not being able to see our selves as the adulterer  ,  this is so true   the  stoning / hardened hearts  we cast  at one another  a judgement  and yet we are to see  the law  applied to ourselves  , looking  though the glass darkly.. when we see face to face  we have to remember what  type of man we were
 2Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.    and being known
  Jesus told us  plain judge not unless  you be judged
 it is  the tree of knowledge of good and evil [ a witness for or  against us perhaps ]  Just as the tree of Life is given to those who have entered into  His kingdom
moses   had a veil over his face  as well ..  make me think  about these things  more in depth .
 here Hbr 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?  

Hbr 10:30   For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.  


Hbr 10:31   [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
 I aways wondered about them two witnesses ......
any ways love how you  described  the inward   work and outward  work
 
of Gods righteouness  in the Laws  the  servant  verses the son in

  the perfect  law of Liberty /free man the book of   James  describes

 Love does conquer all  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on November 05, 2009, 11:52:12 PM
Seth out of curiosity, what would you make of God saying "Stone homosexuals"  (man sleeping with a man as one would a woman)?

What does that mean 'spiritually' to you?

Does it mean the same as the other passages?  That we are too look within ourselves first to see if we have done such things or had such longings?

Well, I say honestly, that I do not know every shadow. But I just know that they ARE shadows, and that the Law is not carnal but Spiritual. That is a foundation of verifiable scriptural truth that I build on. So regarding stoning of homosexuals. I actually see that carnal sins have spiritual counterparts. So when God told his prophet to marry a prostitute, it was expressly symbolic of the fact that His people were committing spiritual fornication. When we have an idol before God (money, power etc) we are adulterers. Just as marriage in the physical realm is symbolic of the union of Christ and his people by the Spirit (becoming one), adultery is to put an idol between the two.

As for homosexuality. I don't know. I could theorize to say that it speaks about fornication with "another Jesus" and "another Gospel" or worshipping not the true God but whatever God suits ourselves etc. But I do know that the commandment is spiritual, and that through deliverance from sin through grace, I am freed from the necessity to commit violence on another person.

QuoteI only ask because im gay and God really didnt seem to bothered about it, in fact i had a little revelation that he was cool with it as long as i didnt go sleeping around and was sincerly looking for love. 

Well, that is a whole can of worms. Where did your revelation come from?

Quote from: Seth on November 06, 2009, 12:21:25 AM

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on November 05, 2009, 11:52:12 PM
Seth out of curiosity, what would you make of God saying "Stone homosexuals"  (man sleeping with a man as one would a woman)?

What does that mean 'spiritually' to you?

Does it mean the same as the other passages?  That we are too look within ourselves first to see if we have done such things or had such longings?

Well, I say honestly, that I do not know every shadow. But I just know that they ARE shadows, and that the Law is not carnal but Spiritual. That is a foundation of verifiable scriptural truth that I build on. So regarding stoning of homosexuals. I actually see that carnal sins have spiritual counterparts. So when God told his prophet to marry a prostitute, it was expressly symbolic of the fact that His people were committing spiritual fornication. When we have an idol before God (money, power etc) we are adulterers. Just as marriage in the physical realm is symbolic of the union of Christ and his people by the Spirit (becoming one), adultery is to put an idol between the two.

As for homosexuality. I don't know. I could theorize to say that it speaks about fornication with "another Jesus" and "another Gospel" or worshipping not the true God but whatever God suits ourselves etc. But I do know that the commandment is spiritual, and that through deliverance from sin through grace, I am freed from the necessity to commit violence on another person.

QuoteI only ask because im gay and God really didnt seem to bothered about it, in fact i had a little revelation that he was cool with it as long as i didnt go sleeping around and was sincerly looking for love. 

Well, that is a whole can of worms. Where did your revelation come from?

I posted it a while ago on the welcome board when i first joined Seth, if you are interested you could dig it up.  Basically i asked God if he would kill me if he wasnt happy with me being gay, but he didnt.  I found it pretty hard going accepting who i was.
One night i prayed, telling God i couldnt change and that i was stuck with being the way i was and God did a little miracle.
He must have a sense of humour because he made a song on the radio play twice in a row, (a famous gay song) and also it was the first song that woke me up the next day on the radio.

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on October 23, 2009, 04:29:09 PMA curse on him who is lax in doing the Lord's work! A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed." [Jer. 13:14; 48:10]

In one sense, this is one of those Words that has a historical limitation and a particular situation that was being addressed. Spiritualized, I'm sure many Christians would go into Ephesians 6 about Christians putting on the full armor of God in order to successfully stand against the strategms of the Adversary....taking the Word of God which is the Sword of the Spirit.  But that's for obviously babyhood and perhaps adolescent areas/eras of Christianity in one's life.  The full armor of God appearing to be the garments of the High Priest could also indicate that the blade would be what's used on the sacrifices before the Lord and obviously it says in Proverbs to put a knife to your throat if you're given to gluttony, and there is a "cutting off" from the camp of the people of God all that defiles in the Mosaic Law and that's implicit in St. Paul's teachings as having a New Covenant application.

But there are higher levels/realms in the grace of God than all of this, once all of one's personal flesh has been trimmed away from getting in the way of God's purposes.  And a trimming away of the flesh isn't uniquely a matter of asceticism but is often just a "cutting off of what offends" in the language of the sermon on the mount when it comes to abiding by His promises, purposes, and commitments that He's making.  It says in Song of Solomon that the sword is worn by the soldiers because of fear in the night, and there is a place that we can cut our way towards to where as 2Peter 1 says, you'll NEVER stumble EVER.  It's not hard to get there for most Christians.  The problem most Christians fall into is staying in that "secret place of the most high" as it's described in Psalm 91 once they've gotten into it via time in the Word 'til it's flushed all fear out and have stayed fasted before Him until His Spirit has completely taken over, as in Mark 5 when Christ Jesus got violent with kicking people full of unbelief out of the room so He could raise someone from the dead.

Now the curse you've mentioned in this passage of Scripture still stands even under the New Testament. St. Paul understood preaching the Gospel to be the Lord's Work he himself (i.e. in his own particular case) was uniquely called to and saw "woe" to himself if he didn't preach the Gospel, and peaking in the book of Revelation about what a "woe" is would cause most folks to go "whoah!!" roflol  Disobedience is never cool, and the above passage that you cited happens to be another one of those "get serious with His purpose and each thing He's called you to or else..." kinda passages like the Gospels, some of the epistles, and the first 3 chapters of Revelation are full of.

We're supposed to cut off anything that's trying to cut us off from the vine, both generally in Christ Jesus being the vine in John 15 and in whatever else He specifically speaks to each individual about being vitally united to and clinging to where He's indicated that your open heavens will be all of the days of your life while you're where He wants you.  Elijah in the Old Testament had to leave the dried up river and go to the widow of Zeraphath (male/female connection here for those studying those in Scripture) before there would be a sustaining in the midst of the famine that was in the land that was caused by his proclaimed drought that he'd introduced in judgment.  He couldn't get his needs met just anywhere or with anyone, even though he was the prophet of the Lord. The Lord met him to bring blessing and abundance of multiplication where He told him to be.  Half a block away, he could have died in that famine.

For some people that would involve a particular Church, for others a career choice, while for others it might involve the 1Corinthians 15 warning that evil company corrupts good habits/manners and one will be called to prune one's entertainment and relational endeavors and to receive the grafting into one's life and being what He's wanting grafted to it.  Some people that occasionally visit these boards hate Church and want to blame Church and various rituals for all of the evils in their communities and in their own personal lives prior to the so-called level of enlightenment that they've supposedly attained.  But Scripture lays all of the blame for unfruitfulness and lack of contentment upon the relationships one is cultivating or failing to cultivate that He's putting a premium on in one's life to have one's own Garden of Eden that He's intending for each of us at the end of the day as we progress in obedience to the Gospel, thankfulness, and those things His Holy Spirit prompts us to do, join, ditch, and become.

Hi Martin seen this the other day and didnt have enough time to read it all.

Its really interesting what you have said here, i have seen the statement from a whole new angle, and am thinking about a lot of what you said, thanks a lot  :bigGrin: