Right now, I am pretty much the definition of a lukewarm Christian, and probably will be for some time. This scripture (too lazy to look up exactly where in the Bible it is now, my apologies) always disturbed me, making me think that only a handful of uber-Christians would be able to escape eternal damnation. But that's not me and it never will be. I will never try to poke my nose in who people marry/sleep with or what women do with their own bodies, I will never try to convert my friends, I will always respect their own personal beliefs, and I will especially never believe that everyone in the world deserves eternal torture for something that is beyond their control (having a sinful nature). I am sure that God, if He exists, understands and respects where I'm coming from, having created me and all. But enough of my soapbox lecture, what do you make of this apparent Bible threatening?
I hear there are ways of casting out spirits and diseases and the way its done is through vomit so the spirits can exit the body... Perhaps Jesus will vomit out the unclean and lukewarm spirits in you, that you may be pure after your period of backsliding?
This in no way affirms eternal damnation, but I believe is aligned with the same teachings that those fruitless branches that don't abide must be cut off to be pruned, or a cutting off from the brethren... e.g. hand over to Satan for destruction of the flesh but spirit saved on the day of the Lord Jesus... stuff like that...
Quote from: PaoloNuevo on March 29, 2011, 04:14:50 AM
I hear there are ways of casting out spirits and diseases and the way its done is through vomit so the spirits can exit the body... Perhaps Jesus will vomit out the unclean and lukewarm spirits in you, that you may be pure after your period of backsliding?
This in no way affirms eternal damnation, but I believe is aligned with the same teachings that those fruitless branches that don't abide must be cut off to be pruned, or a cutting off from the brethren... e.g. hand over to Satan for destruction of the flesh but spirit saved on the day of the Lord Jesus... stuff like that...
Yeah, I have to agree with your last paragraph. There are consequences to walking our own path. That certainly doesn't mean burning in hell for eternity. God has his best in mind for us when he gives us an instruction book on holy living. When we walk outside of that path, there will be some sort of correction. Living how we see fit leads to death...there is no doubt in my mind about that. I think most of us have found ourselves in the spot where you are at. I took that path and it almost took my life and sanity. Only by the grace of God was I delivered from that season of rebellion. The desire for me to serve God with all of my heart took many years. It came from the realization that my best plans gave birth to destruction in my life. It took watching the hand of our God who loves us all agape, remove desires and move in me. He moved in ways I couldn't do for myself.
Quote from: shawn on March 29, 2011, 05:40:44 AM
Quote from: PaoloNuevo on March 29, 2011, 04:14:50 AM
I hear there are ways of casting out spirits and diseases and the way its done is through vomit so the spirits can exit the body... Perhaps Jesus will vomit out the unclean and lukewarm spirits in you, that you may be pure after your period of backsliding?
This in no way affirms eternal damnation, but I believe is aligned with the same teachings that those fruitless branches that don't abide must be cut off to be pruned, or a cutting off from the brethren... e.g. hand over to Satan for destruction of the flesh but spirit saved on the day of the Lord Jesus... stuff like that...
Yeah, I have to agree with your last paragraph. There are consequences to walking our own path. That certainly doesn't mean burning in hell for eternity. God has his best in mind for us when he gives us an instruction book on holy living. When we walk outside of that path, there will be some sort of correction. Living how we see fit leads to death...there is no doubt in my mind about that. I think most of us have found ourselves in the spot where you are at. I took that path and it almost took my life and sanity. Only by the grace of God was I delivered from that season of rebellion. The desire for me to serve God with all of my heart took many years. It came from the realization that my best plans gave birth to destruction in my life. It took watching the hand of our God who loves us all agape, remove desires and move in me. He moved in ways I couldn't do for myself.
:thumbsup: Do we live "in the kingdom" (righteousness, peace, joy - closeness in relationship) or linger on the outskirts, perhaps even outside the gates?
I'm not so sure it's about spirits.
I think it's more like constantly switching between beliefs.
If there is lukewarm there is also hot and cold.
Hot and cold are opposites; so at first thought if the spitting out is about a wrong religion then either hot or cold would be even more wrong as lukewarm.
So why is only the middle ground spit out?
Secondly if Jesus spits it out it is/was already in Him.....?
Could it for example be about Jews who follow Jesus but still do Temple sacrifices?
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 29, 2011, 09:15:20 AM
I'm not so sure it's about spirits.
I think it's more like constantly switching between beliefs.
If there is lukewarm there is also hot and cold.
Hot and cold are opposites; so at first thought if the spitting out is about a wrong religion then either hot or cold would be even more wrong as lukewarm.
So why is only the middle ground spit out?
Secondly if Jesus spits it out it is/was already in Him.....?
Could it for example be about Jews who follow Jesus but still do Temple sacrifices?
I think it's certainly a possibility. It may be refering to those who want to straddle the faith fence...wishy washy. But, I will say this there are many subjects I take an agnostic stance on...ie soul sleep. I think the danger of reading that into this verse or any associated verse is the fact that it makes us dogmatic. And, in dogma there is rigidity and a closed mindedness that inhibits growth. If God changing my views on a subject ascribes me to the wishy washy crowd then sign me up. There are absolutes of my faith ie Jesus died on the Cross for the sins of mankind, but there are many issues with which I just don't know or my stance is tentative.
I really think this is more of a statement about the trial and error of trying to serve two masters.
It's about the great tribulation. Those who are no clean enough, must go through a fiery trial, so that they can be harvested at the end of the age. Some people are dead against the great tribulation, and cannot understand why God would allow such an event, but God has already allowed tribulations in the world since the time of Christ. I think the great tribulation is Gods way of speeding up harvest, so that the first batch, those who believe, can be harvested and for God to deal out his chastisment on those who remain.
Hi TT,
Cold --> Lukewarm --> Hot
If "Hot" is the saints then my guess would be both cold and lukewarm are part of the fiery trial. :dontknow:
Quote from: jimbo99 on March 29, 2011, 02:28:31 AM
Right now, I am pretty much the definition of a lukewarm Christian, and probably will be for some time. This scripture (too lazy to look up exactly where in the Bible it is now, my apologies) always disturbed me, making me think that only a handful of uber-Christians would be able to escape eternal damnation. But that's not me and it never will be. I will never try to poke my nose in who people marry/sleep with or what women do with their own bodies, I will never try to convert my friends, I will always respect their own personal beliefs, and I will especially never believe that everyone in the world deserves eternal torture for something that is beyond their control (having a sinful nature). I am sure that God, if He exists, understands and respects where I'm coming from, having created me and all. But enough of my soapbox lecture, what do you make of this apparent Bible threatening?
I can relate. Sometimes I don't even know if I can call myself a Christian. Very often I feel more like a spiritual seeker, still. My faith is rather weak at best and I can't really say I feel a connection between myself and God, except for sometimes when I pray maybe. When I take this to more advanced believers they say I shouldn't base my faith on feelings. Then they say I should just "hold on to Jesus" and "keep my eyes on Jesus". However, I never fully understood how I'm supposed to hold on to someone I cannot touch or keep my eyes on someone I cannot see? I believe one major hindrance is that I do have a lot of hatred and bitterness on my heart. It says somewhere in the Bible that if we expect God to forgive us our sins, we have to first forgive our enemies. I have never fully succeeded in that. I can fold my hands and utter some beautiful words about forgiveness, but that obviously won't automatically change the fact I still feel bitter towards the people who've done me wrong.
I do have some spiritual experiences, though. For example, last year I had a period when I was in a really bad place spiritually, and I even wrote here on TM that I was ready to commit suicide over the ET doctrine. I don't remember how it went down exactly, for I was very broken and alcohol was in the picture, but I do remember asking God to "please show me the whole picture". Very shortly after that I bumped into this (http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=6840&searchfor=%7C%7CVAN%20ASSEN,%20DORA%7C%7C&type=&what=author) diagram when surfing the web. That material answered some questions about UR I hadn't found answers to before. Coincidence? I don't think so. I like to think God actually answered my prayer.
Sorry I seem to digress... Anyway, as for Bible threatenings, over time I've sort of learnt not to worry too much. I see it as both a positive and a negative thing. On the negative side, indifference can lead to carelessness. But on the positive side, I've learnt to sort of trust on God's love I guess. It's like... I give this my best shot, and I hope I can make it. But should I fail, the worst that can happen to me is I'll be banned from the Millennial Kingdom, and I'll have to go through the Lake of Fire. For God does not cast men off forever. Neither will he be wroth forever. As Aldai Loudy would put it: The goal of universe - God All in All.
Quote from: Aleax on March 29, 2011, 10:33:38 PM
Anyway, as for Bible threatenings, over time I've sort of learnt not to worry too much. I see it as both a positive and a negative thing. On the negative side, indifference can lead to carelessness. But on the positive side, I've learnt to sort of trust on God's love I guess.
There is another option....
If you don't care to much you can search for other things instead of rereading that a bunch of hell verses on daily basis.
QuoteIt's like... I give this my best shot, and I hope I can make it. But should I fail, the worst that can happen to me is I'll be banned from the Millennial Kingdom, and I'll have to go through the Lake of Fire.
Not necesserily.... there are 3 harvests. Only the third one seems to be LoF. http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/harvests_god_5946.msg119417.html#msg119417
No worries Aleax; you have a big B tattoed on your forehead :icon_flower:
Gonna bump this up a bit again . . .got me to thinking . . .
God would rather I be hot (on fire for him?) or cold (rejecting him) but to be complacent with him makes him sick . . . Okay, I get why the luke warm guy gets pushed out . .but why does the cold guy stay in?? Just thinking out loud here, but could it be because at least the one who's cold toward him is acknowledging him? It may be negative, but at least he's showing something? Or . . .could it be that the one who's cold is one that is hungry . . . how is it that complacency is worse that rejection? perhaps rejection is evidence of disillusion, so that's something God can work with . . .but complacency is no interest at all.
Looking at it from an intimacy perspective . . .ever try to procreate with someone who didn't care whether you did or didn't? As compared with someone who adamantly didn't . . .the one who rejected openly at least gave reason for communication . . as opposed to the one who was numb about all of it.
That one has always intrigued me.
My 2 cent brain suggests to me that hot water is definitely good for something and so is the cold water. Now compared to the benefits of hot and cold, lukewarm is not beneficial, at least not anywhere near what hot and cold are.
cp
Quote from: Taffy on April 20, 2011, 08:23:17 PMI dont believe your far off there WW?????---
Sure I am. I know everything. (I'm just very good at hiding it)
There is also another way to look at it.
Hot=saints=obviously good.
Cold=pagan=not good but they don't know better. So they can't really be blamed for what they do.
Lukewarm people know (almost) as much as the saints but sometimes act like saints and other times like pagans. Serving two masters. Taking benefit from both sides. etc
QuoteSure I am. I know everything. (I'm just very good at hiding it)
well dont keep it--share it :thumbsup:
Quote from: Nathan on April 12, 2011, 10:08:16 PM
Gonna bump this up a bit again . . .got me to thinking . . .
God would rather I be hot (on fire for him?) or cold (rejecting him) but to be complacent with him makes him sick . . . Okay, I get why the luke warm guy gets pushed out . .but why does the cold guy stay in?? Just thinking out loud here, but could it be because at least the one who's cold toward him is acknowledging him? It may be negative, but at least he's showing something? Or . . .could it be that the one who's cold is one that is hungry . . . how is it that complacency is worse that rejection? perhaps rejection is evidence of disillusion, so that's something God can work with . . .but complacency is no interest at all.
Looking at it from an intimacy perspective . . .ever try to procreate with someone who didn't care whether you did or didn't? As compared with someone who adamantly didn't . . .the one who rejected openly at least gave reason for communication . . as opposed to the one who was numb about all of it.
That one has always intrigued me.
I believe, Nathan, that this is a very close thinking on the matter. I would not see it as the difference between on fire for him and rejecting him, but instead as how one relates to him, whether in their triumphs or in their disappointments. I think what is hated so much is indifference toward God, as though he is not in the center of a situation.
When I read the Psalms I see this hot and cold all over the place. Same with Job. In here we see, not a rejection of God, but a mixture of emotions ranging from being elated with him for what he has or is doing, to being upset and wondering what in the heck is he doing to them, and when is he going to put it to a stop.
I call that the difference between having a REAL relationship with our Creator, rather than a RELIGIOUS relationship to him, where we taught to think it is so bad to be upfront with God no matter how we feel, even in the times when we are stinkin thinkin. :)
Ron
Quote from: claypot on April 20, 2011, 07:48:09 PM
My 2 cent brain suggests to me that hot water is definitely good for something and so is the cold water. Now compared to the benefits of hot and cold, lukewarm is not beneficial, at least not anywhere near what hot and cold are.
cp
I may agree with you CP still what jumped out for me was "lukewarm is not benefical" the first thing I thought of was when I tell my grandson to wash his hands. He'll use cold, but he wont use hot, but if I set the water at lukewarm he likes it and seems to wash his hands longer. Just my thought at the time that lukewarm is benefical in away. I will not attempt to interpret.
Minnesota is very cold in the winter. In the 70's I lived there in several cabins in the country. I cut down and split my own wood to keep warm, dragging it in on a toboggan. I had an outdoor toilet. I didn't have a car and I lived alone. I survived on food stamps and a little farm work. In the summer I cut and baled hay. When stacking it I would throw two bales at a time. Each one weighed 75 to 150 pounds, depending on how dry it was. I also took care of various animals and milked goats. They have to be milked whether you want to or not. Even if you're so sick you have to drag yourself with your elbows, you can't miss even one milking.
During that time I read from the greatest flowering of English theology known as the Puritans who wrote from about 1675 through 1725. I would turn the radio on when I was in my cabin. Classical music was always playing in the background. Somehow I got the idea of turning off the music. When I was left to myself I discovered heights and depths in my consciousness, laughing and weeping, continually offering up praise and prayer throughout the day. I didn't express like this with music in the background. The sound would flatten my affect. It would lower my highs and raise my lows, leveling my moment to moment existence by distracting me from the reality of myself and God with me. It made me live a more shallow life.
Mark 949-50; (Concordant Literal Translation)...
49 "...For everyone will be salted with fire, and every sacrifice will be salted with salt.
50 Ideal is the salt, yet if the salt should be becoming savorless, with what will you be seasoning it? Have salt in yourselves and be at peace with one another."
God finds us more palatable to consume when we've been salted with fire. We need to burn with passion, express value differences and deeply care; yet, not to the extent of provoking fights with one another, if possible.
If an older brother goes to their father about a sibling that's not doing too well & this elder brother's looking a bit green about 'em, does this mean that we give up the younger brother for adoption that's not doing too well in the household? Lord Jesus's spitting ministry brought healing in the Gospels; REMOVAL OF BLINDNESS OR A CURE TO THE MUTE, under the Law, but we expect it to bring damnation under grace? Some translations have the word "vomit" instead in Revelation, but later in Revelation the only thing forcefully coming out of His mouth is the Sword of the Word of God. A prophet spitting you out, sorta, would involve your name & specifics being brought up, wouldn't it?
Then why would our Lord Jesus going to the Father looking a little green during His intercessions imply a brother or sister in Christ is about to fall off of a cliff into an eternal volcano? John could have simply been saying they'd be called out by name in public rebuke, since Lord Jesus taught doing that sometimes. But for some reason, preachers have looked for an additional Scripture to throw an additional brother or sister away for whom Christ died when Revelation 3 mentions discipline and repentance, gold (perhaps faith) brought from the fire and the possibility of soothing garments for the cold. The passage mentions eye salve, which could easily be referring to Jesus's spitting ministry again, from the Gospels, for those who believe that's the way to translate that.
Because I think that although many of us might think that we know what is "right" and "wrong" behavior - ii.e., how God wants us to behave, perhaps it is most useful if we tell Him that we would like to do what He thinks is right and pray that He guides us accordingly toward that behavior, whatever that behavior might be.
Quote from: deances on January 07, 2012, 08:46:02 PM
Because I think that although many of us might think that we know what is "right" and "wrong" behavior - ii.e., how God wants us to behave, perhaps it is most useful if we tell Him that we would like to do what He thinks is right and pray that He guides us accordingly toward that behavior, whatever that behavior might be.
Agreed. :thumbsup:
He also tells us "All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right." 2 Timothy 3:16
Then as you indicate, to be in close fellowship, get His revelation, leading, and Spirit empowerment is vital. It can't just be our own wisdom and effort - "I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing." Jn. 15:5
Quote from: Taffy on April 20, 2011, 08:42:43 PM
QuoteSure I am. I know everything. (I'm just very good at hiding it)
well dont keep it--share it :thumbsup:
I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.
God would not and did not wish any to be pagans.
Hot = Grace
Cold = The perfect keeping of his laws without grace.
The mixing of the two destroys each other, and apparently leaves a bitter taste
Hot=saints=obviously good.
Cold=pagan=not good but they don't know better. So they can't really be blamed for what they do.
......they went out from us,because they are not of us. Acts 20;30 1 Peter 4;12. he who marries will have tribulation in the flesh
very good figs and very bad figs/cold and hot..either so bad that you didn't eat them in the first place...or if you did eat them they turned your guts[lukewarm]
He seperates the people one from another,sheep/goats...cold hot...unlawful mixing......tokogae is mixing.....the promised land vomited out
the people for their sins before the Israelites took possession. Christ/Kingdom/is our promised land
we all will bear the image of the corruptible[fallen angels/cast out]temporally[tokogae] and the image of the incorruptible[Christ]eternaly
what will be vomited out of Christ's mouth is this temporal state of man. either make the fruit good or evil....and streams should not run bitter and sweet
when Christ 'vomits' out of His body the lukewarm....the Holy spirit no longer teaches them
you guys brought up a lot of good points on your posts!
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
The opposites in the bible hot or cold.
Are not good guys HOT doing what they think will please God.
Bad guys COLD doing things they know will not please God.
That is just an elementary use of this worlds wisdom.
The opposites in the bible are Old Man and New Man.
To be in communion with God one must be holy.
Not holy as some denomination would pronounce Holy,
but holy as you are convinced in your own mind.
No on knows your mind but you and your sprite.
When you think of God. You are conscious of
who you believe him to be and who you are.
You are aware of the relationship between the two.
When you allow yourself time to study that relationship.
You are either convinced that it is a good relationship and going to get better.
Or a bad relationship going to get worse.
That relationship seems to change second by second moment by moment.
until you dwell upon the cross .The center of all unchanging things.
The center where hot and cold meet .Dead center of hot and cold is not Luke warm.
The sword of the spirit is sharp enough to divide hot from cold.
The pathway between hot and cold is so narrow that if you touch
either side you become Luke warm.
When you are convinced and conscious of a good relationship
with God, because of the cross. That is as good as it gets. Like the natural sun the more time you spend in its radiance the more people will notice.
When you add the time you've spent being conscious
of a good relationship with God to eternity .
You get eternity plus this time. This Time
Is your reward in Heaven. This Time is your crown. This time will be eternal and all will see . This Time will be your works that are not burned.
This Time plus eternity is not an equation this worlds wisdom has an answer for .
This Time plus eternity equals reconciliation.
(tx2)+e =r
Quote from: jimbo99 on March 29, 2011, 02:28:31 AM
Right now, I am pretty much the definition of a lukewarm Christian, and probably will be for some time. This scripture (too lazy to look up exactly where in the Bible it is now, my apologies) always disturbed me, making me think that only a handful of uber-Christians would be able to escape eternal damnation. But that's not me and it never will be. I will never try to poke my nose in who people marry/sleep with or what women do with their own bodies, I will never try to convert my friends, I will always respect their own personal beliefs, and I will especially never believe that everyone in the world deserves eternal torture for something that is beyond their control (having a sinful nature). I am sure that God, if He exists, understands and respects where I'm coming from, having created me and all. But enough of my soapbox lecture, what do you make of this apparent Bible threatening?
In the beginnig of that prophecy Jesus walks among the 7 Lampstands, which are churches- and holds in his hands the 7 stars- which represent the shepherds of those churches.
IMO, The spewing that Jesus does, to those who are typified by the church of Laodicea, is rejection from the privilege of being Lampstands for him in the world and priests of reconciliation in the age to come. It has nothing to do with "eternal damnation". It is like the story of Jacob and Esau in old testament. Esau loved this world, so his brother Jacob was chosen over him to carry the prohetic promises of God forward in his generation. I know it may be hard to understand right now, but this privilege is a source of such joy and meaning to those who know it, that such a threat would carry much weight.
This is interesting from www.gty.org.
I don't know their position on ET.
"Laodicea was a very wealthy city. It had material wealth, it gave its people a false security. They were famous for that wealth and apparently the church thought it was wealthy, too.
You say, "Were they talking about money here?" No, no, I don't really think they were talking about money. I think they thought they were rich in spiritual reality. I think they thought they had spiritual riches. Let me go a step further. I think the heresy in Colossae was a form of incipient Gnosticism, a sort of a preview to what later became known as Gnosticism. And Gnosticism comes from the word gnosis which means "to know." In other words, there were people who believed that they had attained to the ascended knowledge. Christ was not enough for them. They had gone beyond Christ. Christ was just an emanation from God, an angelic being on a descending ladder of beings that go from good to bad. And He was somewhere up in the good category.
The gnostics said, "But we have ascended beyond the simplicity of Christ. Christ is only a part, a component. We have reached the ascended knowledge. We have gone beyond that. And that's why Paul in Colossians chapter 2 so explicitly says of Christ, "In Him are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge and you are complete in Him and don't you let anybody spoil you through philosophy and empty deceit and think there's something more elevated than Christ." That same heresy had found its way over here, no doubt, and these people are saying, "We are the ascended ones." If this isn't the typical, hypocritical, liberal line. "All of you mindless fundamentalists. All of you people who just believe the simplicity of the Bible are not educated. You're not erudite. You haven't attained to the ascendent knowledge." We are anti-intellectual.
No, they had spiritual pride. They were rich. They had become spiritually wealthy. They had attained the ascended knowledge. They had gone past that simple belief about Christ that these uneducated and non-trained Christians believe. They think they're spiritually rich. So they said I am rich, that's their state, and have become wealthy, that's...that's the process to that state. They did it by themselves. I'm rich and guess who got me there? Me. And I have need of nothing. That's a self-righteous works system, isn't it? I've attained it all. I've reached the elevated level.
This is the hardest person to reach. The intellectual apostate, the intellectual unsaved hypocrite who stays in the church. Liberal churches flood our country, Europe, Canada, the world...full of people who think they have ascended beyond. They have an aberrant view of Christ. They see Him not as the creator God. They have an infatuation with their own intellect and assume that they have been elevated beyond the simplicity of fundamental truth. And they have developed a self-righteous work system that makes them think they are the spiritually elite who need absolutely nothing. And when you come with the simple gospel, they laugh.
These are the ones, by the way, in the words of Jesus, Matthew 7:13 and 14, who are on the broad road."
Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 11, 2012, 05:10:02 AM
This is interesting from www.gty.org.
I don't know their position on ET.
Maybe a good take on Laodicea...here's his take on ET/"hell";
John MacArthur [gty - "Grace To You"] has said,
Punishment in hell is defined by the word aionios, which is the word eternal or everlasting. There are people who would like to redefine that word aionios and say, "Well, it doesn't really mean forever." But if you do that with hell, you've just done it with heaven, because the same word is used to describe both. If there is not an everlasting hell, then there is not an everlasting heaven. And I'll go one beyond that. The same word is used to describe God. And so if there is not an everlasting hell, then there is not an everlasting heaven, nor is there an everlasting God. It is clear that God is eternal; and, therefore, that heaven is eternal, and so is hell. (John MacArthur, "A Testimony of One Surprised to Be in Hell, Part 2")
Augustine put it simply more than 1,500 years ago: "To say that life eternal shall be endless, [but that] punishment eternal shall come to an end is the height of absurdity."
To say passages like Matthew 25:46 refer to eternality as a quality of judgment but say nothing about the duration, especially without exegetical support, is simply to beg the question. The meaning of "eternal" in that passage is clear—it's everlasting.
It appears he goes to the same church at Laodicea that he speaks about in that piece.
That's kind of short sighted, isn't it?
If Hell is eternal and life for the saints is eternal, what happens when God is all in all?
For the saints, eternal life is just a subway stop on the way to something much better.
So will it be the same for everyone.
The whole "hell" thing is just weird.
They seem to assume that if aionios life ends, that means death. Therefore, aionios must mean eternal.
Obviously, it doesn't because we go onto another state--God all in all.
Even the Son, at that point, will hand the kingdom over to the Father.
But--we really aren't given much information about this in the Bible.
Yet, Paul talks about things changing for those living saints when others are brought in.
He's talking about the Jews, but it's interesting how he puts it:
15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
--Rom 11
Good perspective. It's almost like a mystery, that has to be seen through the haze. :mthumbsup:
yes,the doing away with the satn inspired condemnation and hate and hypocrisy and lies of the spiritual leaders by the spirit of Christ,which speaks love forgiveness
without hypocrisy is life from the dead.
the man of sin,Christ does awy with,with the breath[living word] of His coming
Quote from: Molly on January 11, 2012, 06:48:34 AM
They seem to assume that if aionios life ends, that means death. Therefore, aionios must mean eternal.
Obviously, it doesn't because we go onto another state--God all in all.
Even the Son, at that point, will hand the kingdom over to the Father.
But--we really aren't given much information about this in the Bible.
Yet, Paul talks about things changing for those living saints when others are brought in.
He's talking about the Jews, but it's interesting how he puts it:
15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
--Rom 11
As I was reading your post, I had this thought, that from this point of view, in the parable of the prodigal son......
Israel is the prodigal, having taken the inheritance and left the estate(forgotten their first estate), lived riotuosly in the world spending what the Father had reserved for them in earthly pursuits(dancing round the golden calf), wound up starving(spiritually) in the pig trough(living as Gentiles among Gentiles under the rules of Gentiles-in chains of darkness olam). When they hit bottom and come to their senses(all Israel shall be saved) they will return to the Fathers estate(life from the dead), merely desiring to serve(as Messiah did). The Father, seeing them coming from the distance(through a haze, eh Jabcat?) will be moved to tears of joy, immediately restore them to their proper estate (signet ring of sons, many colored coat of Joseph), throw a huge party(wedding supper of the Lamb) where we will sit all together at table with Abraham Isaac and Jacob and sup (break bread-fellowship; drink wine- purified love) with Jesus. At first, some of us, having wondered all this time why the Father pines so for their return, may object, "But we have been your servants, remaining here in the house, and doing the work of this estate." The Father looks at us with pity in His eyes, mixed with compassion for our failure to understand who He is and what FAMILY is, and says, "Don't you understand? This is my son, even as you are, and he was lost, but now he is found, he was dead, but now HE LIVES!" Perhaps the son who stayed home will hear, and understand, and awaken, and welcome his found brother with new born joy.........finding himself as well having awakwened from death into LIFE MORE ABUNDANT, in the SPIRIT OF RECONCILIATION.
Whaddya think? lol
hi last week i was googling and i dont know how i ended up at this site i will post a link to soon but i did, i think it may be cause i was checking out a scripture that a hell preaching facebook friend was posting lol! it put a whole new perspective on luke warm for me, one i would have never thought about! heres a little glimpse of what the page in my link is like ( i have so been one and prob am one from time to time, im sure jesus is getting sick of spitting me out lol)
##These people did great works for the Lord—even miracles—and thought well of themselves, but they missed their need for the Lord Himself. Jesus said, "Only one thing is needful," and it isn't to do great works for Him. Jesus wants us to trust Him, rest in Him, believe in Him, see our need for Him, get to know Him, let Him get to know us. That's all one thing: it's called Faith.
That may explain why Jesus says "I wish you were cold or hot." If you're "hot," then of course you're exactly where the Lord wants you to be—surrendering to the All-Consuming Fire. You're seeing your need of Him and depending on Him to burn away your impurities and kindle your love.
If you're "cold," you're apart from Him—and you feel it. Sometimes we have to hit the bottom before we learn to look up. As Martin Luther said, if you're going to sin, you may as well sin boldly. None of this socially respectable stuff. Try it all, if that's what it will take for you to see it doesn't satisfy. When the Prodigal wound up in a pigsty, he realized how good his father really was. The sooner you get to the end of your rope, the sooner you'll see your need to be rescued.
heres the whole page http://www.quiveringdaughters.com/2010/09/myth-of-lukewarm-christian.html
actually if the above is correct in its interperatation I am one alot in recovery mode haha i have to send those self righteous thoughts out of my head alot and sometimes i wish i could put some tape over my mouth to keep it shut,
The tongue is set on fire by hell isn't it?
The problem I have is speaking before I pray... that's always stupid. :fool:
it sure is! the tounge so hard to train! You know I often find myself saying something negative or bitching about someone or something and after i think why the heck did i even say this! Its like it so dosnt feel good afterwards so i just dont understand why i would want to be like that in the first place so yep i sin even when i dont want to, its going to take some practice to keep the trap door shut and my wicked thoughts to myself and maybe then the wont have the place in my heart they must do now and then maybe they might just go away for good, now that would be nice
Yes I hear you girl lol!
I know that when I'm in the Spirit I am much less likely to say (or even think) stupid things. The trick is staying in the Spirit and not letting the flesh take over lol! (Still a work in progress here... lol)
Quote from: eaglesway on February 05, 2012, 08:37:12 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 11, 2012, 06:48:34 AM
They seem to assume that if aionios life ends, that means death. Therefore, aionios must mean eternal.
Obviously, it doesn't because we go onto another state--God all in all.
Even the Son, at that point, will hand the kingdom over to the Father.
But--we really aren't given much information about this in the Bible.
Yet, Paul talks about things changing for those living saints when others are brought in.
He's talking about the Jews, but it's interesting how he puts it:
15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
--Rom 11
As I was reading your post, I had this thought, that from this point of view, in the parable of the prodigal son......
Israel is the prodigal, having taken the inheritance and left the estate(forgotten their first estate), lived riotuosly in the world spending what the Father had reserved for them in earthly pursuits(dancing round the golden calf), wound up starving(spiritually) in the pig trough(living as Gentiles among Gentiles under the rules of Gentiles-in chains of darkness olam). When they hit bottom and come to their senses(all Israel shall be saved) they will return to the Fathers estate(life from the dead), merely desiring to serve(as Messiah did). The Father, seeing them coming from the distance(through a haze, eh Jabcat?) will be moved to tears of joy, immediately restore them to their proper estate (signet ring of sons, many colored coat of Joseph), throw a huge party(wedding supper of the Lamb) where we will sit all together at table with Abraham Isaac and Jacob and sup (break bread-fellowship; drink wine- purified love) with Jesus. At first, some of us, having wondered all this time why the Father pines so for their return, may object, "But we have been your servants, remaining here in the house, and doing the work of this estate." The Father looks at us with pity in His eyes, mixed with compassion for our failure to understand who He is and what FAMILY is, and says, "Don't you understand? This is my son, even as you are, and he was lost, but now he is found, he was dead, but now HE LIVES!" Perhaps the son who stayed home will hear, and understand, and awaken, and welcome his found brother with new born joy.........finding himself as well having awakwened from death into LIFE MORE ABUNDANT, in the SPIRIT OF RECONCILIATION.
Whaddya think? lol
I like it!
Yup Yup. Now transfer that same application to contemporary western Christians and we see the whole enchilada :o)