What is the Biblical Basis for "Believe in Jesus or when you die you go to..."

[Msandino]

Greetings ---

I'm trying to talk to my Christian friends who feel I'm lost in heresy.

They say, The Bible teaches that you have to accept Jesus while there is still breath in your body..."

What is their Scriptural Basis for this?

Thanks,
Martha

[James Zimmerman]

Hi!  I am a music minister at a church where the pastor still preaches eternal damnation.  The verses I hear him go to repeatedly are John 14:8, and another in Acts where Peter says there is no other Name under Heaven and Earth by which men can be saved. 

John 14:8 is where the Gospel writers record Jesus saying,"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.  No one comes to the Father but by Me."  But a closer examination of this passage reveals that Jesus is confirming His oneness with God, not a threat to unbelievers.  It was written as a response to the disciples asking Jesus where He was going, and how they could find the way.   The verses following this scripture prove that Jesus was referring to His unity with God, not anywhere near a threat for eternal damnation.

As for the Scripture in Acts(I apologize for not having the chapter and verse), Peter never specifies what Jesus is saving us from.  John 3:16 says that whosoever believes shall not perish.  Jesus doesn't say whosoever believes shall not go to eternal damnation.  The Apostle Paul also wrote that the wages of sin is death.  I believe Jesus came to save us from destruction in this life too.

I'm out of time right now, but I'll check in later.  There are, of course, some other verses that Hell believers use.  I encourage you to explore the "Bible threatenings explained" link on the Tentmaker site.

God bless and the peace of Jesus be with you

Your brother,
James

[jabcat]

Good post James.

I would restate it as "Believe in Jesus or..."

then there are several possible ways to finish it.  "you will face the consequences of your rebellion" (as James said, death, spiritual or otherwise)..."whatever He has to do He will bring you to the point of believing, bowing, and confessing"... "you will one day see Him for Who He is and accept Him" (for some, who are perhaps in total ignorance or simply fully veiled), etc....  bottom line to me, it's imperative to know Him now if it's our time, and be obedient now (Life, peace, joy - living in the kingdom), and each will have his day of reckoning/recognition.  But there are no scriptures that say it all, for everyone, occurs in this life/age.   And they add the "will go to hell for eternity" part based on some misunderstandings and misinterpretations of scripture, and sometimes from assumptions.   :2c:

[Msandino]

Thanks - but what I really mean is,

Where does it say in the Bible that you must confess Jesus is Lord before you die? You know, the sinner's prayer while their gasping their last breath and we all breath a sign of relief cuz he's not going to hell...

Where is the Biblical basis for the cutoff being while breathing on the earth? I can actually see indications that the confession could come after. Specifically, why would Jesus preach to the dead of Noah's days if there wasn't a chance that they could accept him?

So why do they think it has to be on earth?

Thanks!

Martha

[Ross]

Interesting observation for me is about the maths of what many churches believe.
The current number of "believers" is still a small percentage of the global population.
Through history there have been countries who had not even heard of Christ.
Then add in everyone born before Christ.
The maths, for me, places way more people in hell than in heaven.
Ergo satan must be bigger/better  than Christ. Or man greater than the creator.
Hellfire promotes Christ as a failure.

When I was at church this concept NEVER got talked about. Literally blinded by the doctrines just like a horse gets blinders across it's eyes.

He came to seek and save that which was lost. TO me He was 100% successful.

1 Cor 15;22 As in Adam all die, so in Christ will ALL be made alive, each in his own turn.

[Ross]

Where does it say in the Bible that you must confess Jesus is Lord before you die? You know, the sinner's prayer while their gasping their last breath and we all breath a sign of relief cuz he's not going to hell...

Hellfire is usually based on Revelations where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Rev 20;15
The beliefs utterance probably based on Romans 10;13 " Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

[jabcat]

Ha Martha, I was trying to address your point, and maybe did a little here

they add the "will go to hell for eternity" part based on some misunderstandings and misinterpretations of scripture, and sometimes from assumptions.   :2c:

but I mostly fumbled around  :laugh:.  I didn't really mean you should change your question, I was just trying to address yours but said it poorly.  Carry on :)

[darryl]

Thanks - but what I really mean is,

Where does it say in the Bible that you must confess Jesus is Lord before you die? You know, the sinner's prayer while their gasping their last breath and we all breath a sign of relief cuz he's not going to hell...

Where is the Biblical basis for the cutoff being while breathing on the earth? I can actually see indications that the confession could come after. Specifically, why would Jesus preach to the dead of Noah's days if there wasn't a chance that they could accept him?

So why do they think it has to be on earth?

Thanks!

Martha

they seem to base it on 'after death comes the judgement'...specifically, Hebrews 9:27 ►

New International Version
'Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,'
doesn't say 'to face eternal torment in hellfire'...

[darryl]

Hellfire promotes Christ as a failure.

if most humans get tortured forever, I'd say that's a failure..thank God that's not what happens.

[rosered]

Thanks - but what I really mean is,

Where does it say in the Bible that you must confess Jesus is Lord before you die? You know, the sinner's prayer while their gasping their last breath and we all breath a sign of relief cuz he's not going to hell...

Where is the Biblical basis for the cutoff being while breathing on the earth? I can actually see indications that the confession could come after. Specifically, why would Jesus preach to the dead of Noah's days if there wasn't a chance that they could accept him?

So why do they think it has to be on earth?

Thanks!

Martha

Hi Martha !
  the Very breath in them    is God ,  whom  IS  the Spirit of Life ,     and it goes back to God whom gave it ..   Being  the Spirit of Life and    HOLY  and LOVE and  truth and  a consuming fire  by which the WORD OF GOD being JESUS CHRIST  as  the WORD made flesh  John 1 ,   having all things being created    though HIM  and nothing was made   that was NOT though Him , being the  WORD OF TRUTH   as a witness by the Spirit  of Truth which is GOD HIMSELF as  heavens & earth  WITNESS

  I have considered    this being ONE GOD    that all living things comes from   and never  leaves GOD   but is the core of all  LIFE sustainable , when something dies  ,  the Spirit leaves it and it corrupts   decays and is considered loss  of life , but   dying a little more daily  is   the  perishing  in the  using of Life  ,  just as a flower  comes from a   seed and is planted  in the dark earth /soil  [just as us also can be compared to this process]   the seed being the'' Word of God / aka  Jesus Christ ''   but it is the increase of God sustaining it , with food and light and water    that make it grow for a time and has its glory [in the earth ]   and it dies and the cycle is repeated   by the new seeds   from its   maturity [  fruits /works of God  though Christ anointing....   etc


...5For even if there are so called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords),

6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist. 7But not everyone has this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that they eat such food as if it were sacrificed to an idol. And since their conscience is weak, it is defiled....
  Being weak in faith  these    stumble   OVER THE WORD  /Wisdom of God  /  Jesus Christ the Light , without  this knowledge of God ... as the waters of Life freely  flow   though showers of blessing   and rivers of life though the belly [womb]   leaping with new life   , it is all God  and to His  glory  on earth as it is the heaven [peace and joy and the Holy Spirit ]  double peace ..

Deuteronomy 4:35
"To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him.

Deuteronomy 4:39
"Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.

Deuteronomy 6:4
"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

Isaiah 46:9
"Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,

Jeremiah 10:6
There is none like You, O LORD; You are great, and great is Your name in might.

Jeremiah 10:7
Who would not fear You, O King of the nations? Indeed it is Your due! For among all the wise men of the nations And in all their kingdoms, There is none like You.

Malachi 2:10
"Do we not all have one father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously each against his brother so as to profane the covenant of our fathers?

John 1:3
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:10
He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him.

John 13:13
You call Me Teacher and Lord, and rightly so, because I am.

  In the beginning  was the WORD [John 1] Genesis 1 (NASB)   Jesus Christ being the WORD OF GOD IS THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD AND THE DAY .. the 1000 YEARS REIGN  to me .  from Adam  dying  to Christ ALIVE

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

And what is in that Day ?  but'' all things '', life and death,  all things are yours and you belong to Christ and Christ belongs to God !!

It  is all in how we  think and repent   change our minds from the  earthly  sensual and devilish thinking   waters below  thinking    to    thinking on the things ABOVE  the holy things the pure and lovely things of God   by His   own Spirit of life  made by the Word of  Life , being Jesus Christ  IS  His name  under heaven by which  salvation comes though   , Gods  Son  , His one of a kind   offspring [seed /Word of new Life   though  the  new and living way,   sustained by His own Spirit of Life ..

Just  trying to  keep my eyes of Jesus and looking up   and beholding Him  , lifting Him up as   to draw all  men unto Him ,,,       Love and God bless  :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

  I  believe it is very important and was reminded    that if God had not left us a seed [ hope is in the seed of Life  rising  up out of the earth   as a tree of Life as the name the LORD JESUS CHRIST  as the WORD is made flesh  ,John 1 ,  within each and every one of us  , to me   , we would have been   exactly or just the same fate of Sodom and Gomorrah  , that is to say be  destroyed by the fiery law   ...

Deut  33 New International Version
He said: "The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.

New Living Translation
"The LORD came from Mount Sinai and dawned upon us from Mount Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran and came from Meribah-kadesh with flaming fire at his right hand.

English Standard Version
He said, "The LORD came from Sinai and dawned from Seir upon us; he shone forth from Mount Paran; he came from the ten thousands of holy ones, with flaming fire at his right hand.

New American Standard Bible
He said, "The LORD came from Sinai, And dawned on them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran, And He came from the midst of ten thousand holy ones; At His right hand there was flashing lightning for them.

King James Bible
And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

The descriptives   in each of these  text     give a more  clear  view   to me as to being  , the letter of the law that KILLS ,   the jot and tittle of all   the law and breaking one has  no hope because ALL are broken   AND   CHRIST MAKING ALIVE   ,  OUR TRUE HOPE   as  Being the WORD OF LIFE /seed to rise up from death in which all things are being fulfilled    in you  , in all generations and  in the earth as it is in heaven , the Holy Spirit & fire    as promised  to be baptised in ,  that is dipped  , submerged and   sunken  down deep  into    and  come up  , raised up  permanently  changed   By Gods  power and glory and  HOLY SPIRIT AND WORD OF LIFE   :HeartThrob:

[James Zimmerman]

Hi Martha! Great discussion you started!  In Mark 16:16, Jesus says, whoever believes and is baptized will be blessed, and whoever does not believe will be condemned.  Not only does the word condemned not mean forever, but just a few verses  before this one, Jesus rebukes His own disciples for not believing.  He obviously forgave them.  What makes us think he wouldn't forgive others?  He even forgave His own murderers. 

I read John chapter 3(Young's literal translation) not too long ago, and I noticed that Jesus describes the judgement for nonbelievers. He says that the judgement is that light came into the world, but men loved darkness.  Wicked men don't  want to enter the light because their wickedness will be exposed.   So they choose to continue to live in darkness. 

Again, there is no reference to the afterlife here.  When we choose darkness, we reap what we sow.   You have plenty of other info here, so I'll keep it short.  There is obviously no clear evidence that those who do not pray a sinner's prayer will go to everlasting torment.  I am glad that you are here on the Tentmaker sight, so that others may not bring you into further bondage of the fear of Hell.  Thanks for the good question!

[Patinak]

Hi Martha! Great discussion you started!  In Mark 16:16, Jesus says, whoever believes and is baptized will be blessed, and whoever does not believe will be condemned.  Not only does the word condemned not mean forever, but just a few verses  before this one, Jesus rebukes His own disciples for not believing.  He obviously forgave them.  What makes us think he wouldn't forgive others?  He even forgave His own murderers. 

I read John chapter 3(Young's literal translation) not too long ago, and I noticed that Jesus describes the judgement for nonbelievers. He says that the judgement is that light came into the world, but men loved darkness.  Wicked men don't  want to enter the light because their wickedness will be exposed.   So they choose to continue to live in darkness. 

Again, there is no reference to the afterlife here.  When we choose darkness, we reap what we sow.   You have plenty of other info here, so I'll keep it short.  There is obviously no clear evidence that those who do not pray a sinner's prayer will go to everlasting torment.  I am glad that you are here on the Tentmaker sight, so that others may not bring you into further bondage of the fear of Hell.  Thanks for the good question!

:iagree:

[CHB]

what comes to my mind is.... (Phil. 2:10-11) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I think every one will acept Jesus but in their own time period. I don't see where it says it has to be a certain time or you will not be saved.

CHB

[micah7:9]

what comes to my mind is.... (Phil. 2:10-11) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I think every one will acept Jesus but in their own time period. I don't see where it says it has to be a certain time or you will not be saved.

CHB

:iagree:

[James Zimmerman]

Looks like I'm obsessing about your post a bit... I wanted to make sure and say that I am totally for receiving God's atonement for sin through Christ Jesus.  I wouldn't want anyone to wxperience what Jesus calls "outer darkness", even if it were only for a season, in this life or the next.    I think it's great  for the soul to recieve God's gift of Grace.

There are many verses that suggest a blanket pardon for all people, especially in Romans 5.  Also, in Hebrews 8 and Hebrews   10 the author refers and explains new covenant without any mention of a prayer or exclusion.
I am still learning about these things myself.  That's why I am on this site!  I guess you asked a question I also ask myself too.    If every knee will bow and confess Jesus one day, and all who confess shall be saved, then it would lead one to believe there will be an opportunity in the life to come.

[Lazarus Short]

I could cite many things to indicate that some will enter the Kingdom after death, but what comes to mind is Matthew 21:31, where Jesus tells His hearers that the harlots and publicans will enter the Kingdom before them.  Since surely few harlots or publicans are to become followers of Jesus in this life, then many of them will do so, after death and before those Jesus was addressing.  Otherwise, Jesus was sitting Himself up to be proved a liar.

[Msandino]

In Mark 16:16, Jesus says, whoever believes and is baptized will be blessed, and whoever does not believe will be condemned.  Not only does the word condemned not mean forever, but just a few verses  before this one, Jesus rebukes His own disciples for not believing.  He obviously forgave them.  What makes us think he wouldn't forgive others?  He even forgave His own murderers. 

I read John chapter 3(Young's literal translation) not too long ago, and I noticed that Jesus describes the judgement for nonbelievers. He says that the judgement is that light came into the world, but men loved darkness.  Wicked men don't  want to enter the light because their wickedness will be exposed.   So they choose to continue to live in darkness. 

I love this!! Thank you!   :iagree: :gimmefive:

[Ross]

Good observations happening folks;

One of my favourite points about all we do is made by Paul in Romans and 1 Cor 15;
Christ's works are greater than Adam's.
The spirit is greater than the flesh, but both parts were planned so we could literally learn right from wrong.
Christ became like us and died for us so that He could be FIRST IN EVERYTHING.
Many lies, such as immortality, try to cover this, or distract from this.
The father of lies, satan, stimulates many half-truths that twist, or cover-up, what Christ did for ALL mankind.

[anti_nietzsche]

Maybe I can help a bit too. The others might base their opinion on Paul having written, "It is appointed for all men to die, and after this, the judgment". The probably believe that their faith in Jesus means that they are not condemned in that judgment session. "Who believes in me doesn't come into judgment but has passed from death to life." Another bible verse they may have had in mind.

But they forgot much. Apostle John identifies Jesus as an advocate of sinners, Paul said the same about the Holy Spirit representing our case before God.

Also, they might forget what kind of judgment we're awaiting (and there is no doubt we do await a judgment, all of us). In Germany, a judge has more options than just a simple Thumb up or Thumb down like in a theater. For example, I live in a group home because of an illness and a judge arranged that for me (this was no punishment, I just had to check with a judge before I could get in here, I'm legal!). The punishment that is sometimes given as eternal fire, because we believe in a God who is love, can also mean being impressed with your evil deeds in the presence of God and you would feel shame and regret, and that's the fire that doesn't go out until God's love is fully with you again and cleanses you.

Jesus also once said, about his mission in Israel, he would have much to judge and teach the Jews. But he never condemned anyone during his life on Earth and when he got murdered on that cross He actually forgave everyone who ever lived and will live, "Father, forgive them, for the know not what they are doing!", and then, "It is finished!". In the Gospel of John Jesus specifically makes clear that he would judge nobody being the Savior of the world, not its destroyer. He adds and practically means that he would talk again in the judgment of people, and that means, in effect, that people see Jesus again and can put their faith in him also in the afterlife. Jesus runs after every lost sheep and searches for every lost coin, so if he would condemn someone to eternal punishment in the afterlife would not be in his logic. Again, he is Savior, not judge, and when he judges he listens to his Father who is love!

[darryl]

There are many verses that suggest a blanket pardon for all people, especially in Romans 5.  Also, in Hebrews 8 and Hebrews   10 the author refers and explains new covenant without any mention of a prayer or exclusion.

I too believe nobody will be eternally lost...can you imagine the uproar in heaven if people thought their loved ones were forever lost ?..the 'saved' would be badgering God forever to have pity on their loved ones...heaven would be a terribly sad place,  utter hell in fact..parents in heaven would be panicking about their children being tormented in hell, beside themselves with grief...God would have to remove the very memory of people's loved ones and all who even knew them or knew of them..a preposterous idea

[Seth]

Thanks - but what I really mean is,

Where does it say in the Bible that you must confess Jesus is Lord before you die?

Nowhere whatsoever.

Notice that even the scriptures you said other Christians quoted don't say that. That conclusion is based on inferences from scripture and mistranslations. But, by nature, inferences are guesses not infallible truth.

When it says that "there is no other name by which man may be saved," they bring in an assumption that there is a deadline about that. But the scripture itself doesn't actually say it.

It blew my mind to discover that for the first time.

[rosered]

Thanks - but what I really mean is,

Where does it say in the Bible that you must confess Jesus is Lord before you die?

Nowhere whatsoever.

Notice that even the scriptures you said other Christians quoted don't say that. That conclusion is based on inferences from scripture and mistranslations. But, by nature, inferences are guesses not infallible truth.

When it says that "there is no other name by which man may be saved," they bring in an assumption that there is a deadline about that. But the scripture itself doesn't actually say it.

It blew my mind to discover that for the first time.

:thumbsup:

I know what you mean  Seth ,     In the the beginning is the Light    , knowledge of God to see , JESUS CHRIST BEING THE WORD OF GOD IS OUR LIGHT AND RULER OF THE DAY / Bringing forth children of the Day [man child ]   He was the first and pattern SON  of God and Son of Man  making all things new ..


   We read there is no name under heavenby which you must be saved .....   BIG CLUE for me  after reading the  woman clothed with  the Sun  in heaven

in REV 12




13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.

14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.


15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.


16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth.


17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

These are the sons  of God  and the sons of man    being revealed        whom have the Spirit of prophecy / testimony of Jesus Christ within them   and following GODS Command , love Him first with your   all  and everyone else as your own self ....   

  There is no respecter of person  in this nor   exclusion    , it is ONE FOR ALL   and all  for ONE  TRUE AND LIVING   LOVING  GOD ..

[TheJason]

Plenty of basis if you interpret things in a non-UR fashion.  However, though, a bigger reason seems to be an obsession with not looking weak.  Apparently, they believe God has to be the way he is falsely portrayed or be soft - and you know, these conservative types hate softness!

[rosered]

Plenty of basis if you interpret things in a non-UR fashion.  However, though, a bigger reason seems to be an obsession with not looking weak.  Apparently, they believe God has to be the way he is falsely portrayed or be soft - and you know, these conservative types hate softness!

  I believe it is more of a balance   Jason ,

Opinions/judgments  come from knowledge or lack of   knowledge of God

Everyone reads the bible  with a carnal mind /limited  ,  as a beast  that is not the same as reading it with the Mind of Christ  or anointed   with Holy Spirit  /limitless
Two entirely  opposing  ways to   process and view  /interpret      Bible  meaning   of  death and Life ..   

GOD hid Himself  very well  and can only be  seen   though a  purified and changed heart  from a transformed   entirely different creature   and nature .