What is Paul really talking about?

[ed]

Romans 9
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Why does he sorrow so for Israel?  If Paul knows that God shall have mercy on all, what salvation are they missing out on?

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

That verse, verse six, was used to say "all Isreal shall be saved" does not mean all Israel shall be saved.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

What destruction is Paul talking about?  Is this a destruction that has already happened?  Is this a was/is/will be destruction?

Romans 10
10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Saved from what?  If Paul knows that they will eventually be saved.......what salvation are they missing out on?  The present salvation in Christ?

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Zeal for God is so close to the salvation that we now enjoy.

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Saved from what?  Are we talking about a future salvation or a present salvation?

Romans 11
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

What Israel and what salvation are we talking about here?

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Thanks for your insight.  I'm just slightly confused.

[Ross]

This seems to be saying that Paul is wishing that the current Israel did not have to go through missing out on the first resurrection, but he knew they would. Being  a Jew he knew that  the current Israel thought they were behaving correctly according to the law. The zeal they had was pointed out;
Rom 10;2-4 " For I bear witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
                     FOR IGNORING THE RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT COMES FROM GOD AND SEEKING TO ESTABLISH THEIR OWN
                     THEY DID NOT SUBMIT TO GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS.
                      FOR CHRIST IS THE END OF THE LAW SO NOW THEIR IS RIGHTEOUSNESS FOR EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES."

This all goes through the teaching about differentiating between grace and personal works.

I.M.O this reinforces the concept that there will no longer be Jew or gentile, slave or free but all one in Christ; Gal 3;28, Col 3;11
I.M.O Israel, a little group in this current age amongst many nations is an example/illustration of how the Israel to come, which will be all mankind, will be relatively small in comparison to the heavenly nations already in existence.

Paul makes the observation about families in heaven already being there;
Eph 3;14,15 " For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,
                      from Whom every family IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH derives it's name."
All pretty awesome really.
Hope this makes sense for you.

[eaglesway]

Definitely awesome. I think the portion in Galations 4 where Paul speaks of Hagar as symbolizing the first Israel as a bondwoman(under law) and Sarah as the "freewoman" is a key. We are in Sarah who have received Jesus by grace through faith. In Romans Paul explains that branches that have been cut off for unbelief can be re-grafted in at a later date- after they believe..."and so all Israel shall be saved."

Israel stumbled at the stumbling stone,(Rom 10:3) becaused they pursued the law as establishing their own righteousness rather than by faith even as many still do today, and as many do also with the gospel.

Also 2 Corintians 3 15-18 provides additional insight.

Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil [e]remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Paul is characterizing Israel as the glory that fades away because it is veiled, even as in another place he characterized it as the "shadow" of the solid reality to come in Christ. This solid reality is the covenant of faith renewed in Jew and Gentil through Christ... the covenat of Abraham, which Paul says, cannot be superceded by the law which came 400 years later...

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

For me, Gal 4 is the prime explanation, but Romans 9-11 gives the whole picture of how it is that "for from Him and through Him and to Him are all things"- this glorious plan that is spoken of in Roans 8, by which the entire creation will be restored from futility(chaos/sin/death) into the glorious liberty of the children of God- which children we all are, as it says in Gal 4, "For you are all sons of God through Jesus Christ".

[ed]

Romans 8
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



..................................But.............There is Israel.
Israel my kinsman.
They love God, but they are enemies of the gospel.

[sheila]

Zechariah 12;7  The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first..that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the

  inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.   a jew inwardly[spirit] Jesus Christ through which

  we gain access to H.O.H.  very presence.  All Israel isn't Israel[not a jew inwardly as yet]

[sheila]

 :2c:  all men[Israel] not yet come into their promised spiritual inheritance...born again from Jerusalem above/free.


   bondage as bound yet..versus Jerusalem above which is free. The scepter shall not depart from Judah until Shiloh comes.

    Shiloh as Holy spirit[I will not leave you as orphans] it is for your benefit that I go away...that the 'Comfortor' may come to

you.   Comforted and dandled on the knee as born from Jerusalem above..promise/free.

    Thus,I see those who enter in through Christ[Judah/King and Priest] saved first through faith in Christ and new birth.......

   yet all Israel..is not Israel....as they must pass under the 'rod' and be brought into the covenant[shepherd the nations

  with a rod of iron]   seeing flesh body as clay pot...and man's redeemed spirit as El's jew[jewel]  or man's spirit in this

  body of death[clay pot]bound in spirit of disobedience....

[eaglesway]

Romans 8
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



..................................But.............There is Israel.
Israel my kinsman.
They love God, but they are enemies of the gospel.

Verily.

[marie glen]

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

...will be saved from their unbelief..

Hebrews 4:1-11

(The Promise of Rest, of which the Sabbath is a shadow of; Jesus is that rest?)

4 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

"So I swore in My wrath,
'They shall not enter My rest,'"
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works"; 5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said:

"Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts."
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.