What's so bad about annihilation

[Truthseeker]

I personally don't understand why so many UR believers are as much against this as ET


If I'm entirely honest with myself, I'd rather just cease to exist altogether one day rather than be forced to live forever, I'm more worried about others/myself being tortured forever than I am about wanting to go to heaven to be with the Lord forevermore

If UR isn't true then annihilation is the next best thing as at least there won't be ET, in other words what I'm saying, is simply this

If I had a choice between going to eternal bliss for myself at the expense of one person being tortured forever, or I have to give up my eternal bliss to save the person being tortured forever (IOW we are both annihilated), then I would choose to give up my eternal bliss

So much for the phantom [mod edit] that we all supposedly have, I couldn't even have chosen whether or not I wanted to play this game in the first place, to me it seems as if we are placed here without our consent and given an ultimatum of "turn or burn", if I understand this "True Gospel Threat"

[Paul Hazelwood]

I personally don't understand why so many UR believers are as much against this as ET


If I'm entirely honest with myself, I'd rather just cease to exist altogether one day rather than be forced to live forever, I'm more worried about others/myself being tortured forever than I am about wanting to go to heaven to be with the Lord forevermore

If UR isn't true then annihilation is the next best thing as at least there won't be ET, in other words what I'm saying, is simply this

If I had a choice between going to eternal bliss for myself at the expense of one person being tortured forever, or I have to give up my eternal bliss to save the person being tortured forever (IOW we are both annihilated), then I would choose to give up my eternal bliss

So much for the phantom [mod edit] that we all supposedly have, I couldn't even have chosen whether or not I wanted to play this game in the first place, to me it seems as if we are placed here without our consent and given an ultimatum of "turn or burn", if I understand this "True Gospel Threat"

My objection simply is that once you assert that a human being might be left to be eternally separated from God in any capacity (even if it might sound humane), there really is no assurance concerning what your fate might be in the first place.

If God cannot keep his promise to do all that he desires, then you have no assurance that he won't let you remain in a torturous state forever. 

I'm just not going to live my life under that umbrella.  It all can be discussed and argued,  but that is how I look at things now.

[WhiteWings]

Maybe you should ask yourself why UR peeps have problems with ED.
Because they think it's a bad thing to do?
Or because they think Scripture simply teaches ED is not true?
Or both?

Even if ET was true your eternal bliss has zero impact on the eternal hell of others.
Each person is personally judged.
You are not asked: What do you want? Eternal bliss and those 3 people to hell or ED for all 4 of you.

That thread is a ET thread. It's just how veiled people read things.
Please don't fall back in you old negative thoughts Shadow.
a] They hurt you.
b] God doesn't judge others by how you feel about it.
c] Nothing you do or don't do makes ET, ED, UR more or less true.

Best is to study. Read why people write on thsi forum and then lock yourself up in a quiet room and start verifying if it's true what they said.
Imo you should  study away your fears. That way you no longer get infected by ET crap.

[Aleax]

Imo you should  study away your fears. That way you no longer get infected by ET crap.

I second that.
Even if that doesn't make you a convinced UR believer, you'll at least notice ET'ers need to do much of the very same thing to support their beliefs they are accusing us of. That is, explaining away stuff.

A common argument against UR is the Greek word "malista" translated "especially" doesn't really mean "especially" but rather "in otherwords", "that is" or "exclusively". Hence, 1 Tim 4:10 is mistranslated. Okay so let's assume they're right. Let's assume "especially" means "that is".

1 Timothy 4:10 (Young's Literal Translation)

10 for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially that is, of those believing.

So far it doesn't look that silly. But.

Galatians 6:10 (Young's Literal Translation)

10 therefore, then, as we have opportunity, may we work the good to all, and especially that is, unto those of the household of the faith.


Are all people believers?
Are we only supposed to be good to believers?

1 Timothy 5:17 (Young's Literal Translation)

17 The well-leading elders of double honour let them be counted worthy, especially that is, those labouring in word and teaching,

Are all elders labouring in word and teaching?
Other elders shouldn't be counted worthy?

So, to support the ET position here one must accept "especially" means "especially" in the last two passages but more like "exclusively" in the first.

[WhiteWings]

^YLT2Tim 4
13 the cloak that I left in Troas with Carpus, coming, bring thou and the books--especially the parchments.

^ET2Tim 4
13 the cloak that I left in Troas with Carpus, coming, bring thou and the books--that is the parchments.

[Lefein]

Annihilation carries all the same faults of Eternal Torture, the only difference here - is that life is ceased, rather than tortured.

The root failure of ET is not in how evil it is - that is certainly a powerful reason to hate it.  But the root failure of it - is that it makes God a failure.

Annihilation means that God did not succeed in his will and task of saving all mankind.  The vast majority of mankind would be destroyed, and God would be the perpetual God of Death and the Dead, but God is the god of the living.

[Beloved Servant]

Nor are we created in His Image if His Image can be annihilated.

[Lefein]

Indeed, and God is Love, Life, and Truth; so we are the image of Love, as well as Life, and Truth.

Love endures all things, and so...in summary it really doesn't make sense that his expressed reflection could be so obliterated.  Much less that his expressed reflection of Love, Life, and Truth would not respond to its own kind.

Love responds to Love, every human being is just...plain and simple built to be loved, and to love, and it would be completely alien for any being to be able to resist Love so stubbornly when every obstacle of flesh, disease, hurt, and circumstances of embitterment are removed in the presence of the all consuming fire who burns away dross - that most Holy God.

[shawn]

Annihilation carries all the same faults of Eternal Torture, the only difference here - is that life is ceased, rather than tortured.

The root failure of ET is not in how evil it is - that is certainly a powerful reason to hate it.  But the root failure of it - is that it makes God a failure.

Annihilation means that God did not succeed in his will and task of saving all mankind.  The vast majority of mankind would be destroyed, and God would be the perpetual God of Death and the Dead, but God is the god of the living.

I would have to disagree.  There is a large gap between ED and ET.  I'm not sure how anyone can say that eternally torturing isn't infinitely worse than just death.  There is so much scripture about the fate of nonbelievers it's hard to ignore or reason away.  Look up destruction and see how many times it's listed when referencing people.

I'm not saying that mean ED is true.  But, I'm saying there is significant scriptural support for it.

[Lefein]

Separation from God, is separation from God.  Tortured or not.

[shawn]

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. 25 As He says also in Hosea,  "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,'  AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"

[shawn]

Separation from God, is separation from God.  Tortured or not.

No one desputes that fact.  But conscious seperation from God is significantly different then not existing.  What did you know of life before you were born?  Was it awful?

[Beloved Servant]

Does God not say that He knew us before we were born?

So, then, we must have also known Him.

I can know of someone without them knowing me, but, I can not truly know them as the Lord states He knows us.

[shawn]

Does God not say that He knew us before we were born?

So, then, we must have also known Him.

I can know of someone without them knowing me, but, I can not truly know them as the Lord states He knows us.

I believe that to be a figure of speech rather than a statement supporting that we existed before we were born.  He knew us because he is timeless and all knowing.  He knew us before he created us.

[Beloved Servant]

I believe that to be a figure of speech rather than a statement supporting that we existed before we were born.

I believe that to be a statement supporting that we existed before we were born — rather than a figure of speech.

[WhiteWings]

I'm not sure yet, but there several verses that at the very least point toward pre-existance.
And none, I'm aware of, denies it.

[shawn]

I believe that to be a figure of speech rather than a statement supporting that we existed before we were born.

I believe that to be a statement supporting that we existed before we were born — rather than a figure of speech.

I won't deny the possibility of such a thing.  Who am I to say it didn't happen that way?  But, God is indeed all knowing, and is not confined by time.  Therefore, he would have always known us before we were created.

Either way, doesn't really change much in my mind.

What I am leary of...us judging and labeling those who do not believe in UR.  I do not know God's judgments nor do I claim to.  But, I do know there is alot of scriptural support despite many here saying there isn't.

LS had a terrific post awhile back and I think I will post it here as a reminder.

Php 3:18 For many, as I have often told you and now tell you even in tears, conduct themselves as enemies of the cross of Christ.
Php 3:19 Their end is destruction.

2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.

2Pe 2:12 But these people, like irrational animals born by nature for capture and destruction, revile things that they do not understand, and in their destruction they will also be destroyed,
2Pe 2:13 suffering wrong as payment for wrongdoing

Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

Act 13:40 "Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:
Act 13:41 'BEHOLD, YOU SCOFFERS, AND MARVEL, AND PERISH;
FOR I AM ACCOMPLISHING A WORK IN YOUR DAYS,
A WORK WHICH YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE, THOUGH SOMEONE SHOULD DESCRIBE IT TO YOU.'"

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: die. the soul that sinneth, it shall die

Sir 15:14 When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice.
Sir 15:15 If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will.
Sir 15:16 There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand.
Sir 15:17 Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.

2Ma 7:14 When he was near death, he said, "It is my choice to die at the hands of men with the God-given hope of being restored to life by him; but for you, there will be no resurrection to life."

Psalms 37:10 "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall be no more."

Psa 5:6 You destroy those who speak falsehood;
The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.

Psalms 37:20 "The enemies of the Lord, like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish, into smoke they shall vanish away."

Psalms 37:38 "But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the future of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psa 73:27 But those who are far from you perish; you destroy those unfaithful to you.

Psalms 145:20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.

Psalm 9:5-6
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
Endless ruin has overtaken the enemy,
you have uprooted their cities;
even the memory of them has perished.

Psalms 92: 7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
Proverbs 10:29 The way of the Lord is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

Proverbs 13:13 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.

Psalms 101:8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the Lord.

Psalms 21:10 Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.

Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more.

Obadiah 1:16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.

Psalms 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

Psa 37:38 But transgressors will be altogether destroyed;
The posterity of the wicked will be cut off.

Proverbs 6:12-15
12 A scoundrel and villain,
who goes about with a corrupt mouth,
13 who winks with his eye,
signals with his feet
and motions with his fingers,
14 who plots evil with deceit in his heart—
he always stirs up dissension.
15 Therefore disaster will overtake him in an instant;
he will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy.

Psa 28:5 They pay no heed to the LORD'S works, to the deeds of God's hands. God will tear them down, never to be rebuilt.

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.)
Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.

Rev 21:8 But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

[micah7:9]

1Co 15:45  so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,
1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:45 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."
1Co 15:45  In the same way also it is written, "THE FIRST MAN ADAM BECAME A LIVING ANIMAL"; the last Adam is a life-giving Spirit.

I read and understand this to mean than man/adam was FIRST(in its/his beginning) was a living soul/creature. Not something else. Or am I reading this in error?

I do not accept the teaching of annihilation, I do not reason that God would create man to annihilate man, I DO believe that He WILL RE-store man and He WILL RE-generate man.

[WhiteWings]

Destroyed. For how long? An Age? Or without an end?
/EDIT I'm also not so sure is the best possible translation.

[shawn]

1Co 15:45  so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,
1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:45 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."
1Co 15:45  In the same way also it is written, "THE FIRST MAN ADAM BECAME A LIVING ANIMAL"; the last Adam is a life-giving Spirit.

I read and understand this to mean than man/adam was FIRST(in its/his beginning) was a living soul/creature. Not something else. Or am I reading this in error?

I do not accept the teaching of annihilation, I do not reason that God would create man to annihilate man, I DO believe that He WILL RE-store man and He WILL RE-generate man.

And that is my hope Micah.  With that said, I think it wise to be cautious when we judge those in the body of Christ because they believe differently than ourselves.  I have seen some very concerning posts recently.  I hope that gets nipped in the bud.  And I am not talking to you.  I am speaking to those who chose to seperate the body rather than embrace brothers with a different view point than our own.

Also, these scriptures are very interesting.  I believe there is much to be derived from them.  From my understanding, animals have a body and a soul.  Man has body, soul, and spirit.  Spirit is the part of us able to worship and have relationship with God.  Before, I start thinking on these scriptures is this correct?

[Beloved Servant]

There is a groom and a bride.
Some Scriptures speak to one and another to another.

[legoman]

I personally don't understand why so many UR believers are as much against this as ET


If I'm entirely honest with myself, I'd rather just cease to exist altogether one day rather than be forced to live forever, I'm more worried about others/myself being tortured forever than I am about wanting to go to heaven to be with the Lord forevermore

If UR isn't true then annihilation is the next best thing as at least there won't be ET, in other words what I'm saying, is simply this

If I had a choice between going to eternal bliss for myself at the expense of one person being tortured forever, or I have to give up my eternal bliss to save the person being tortured forever (IOW we are both annihilated), then I would choose to give up my eternal bliss

So much for the phantom [mod edit] that we all supposedly have, I couldn't even have chosen whether or not I wanted to play this game in the first place, to me it seems as if we are placed here without our consent and given an ultimatum of "turn or burn", if I understand this "True Gospel Threat"

Hi Truthseeker,

In itself I don't think there is much wrong with what you say above.  I would think many people would give up immortality (if they could) so others would not be tortured forever.  That in itself is a noble thing to - not all would do it (even some who claim to be Christian) - yet many would.  And I know what you mean that the idea of living forever seems scary and sometimes wishing for your own annihilation might provide more peace.  But God will provide a better life than all this now.  That is our hope.

But this is not the problem with ED (annihilation), and why UR's have a problem with it.  The real reason - like others have said - is that ED, like ET, makes God a failure, and thus provides no assurance that any of us will not end up in a state where God cannot or does not save us, and perhaps even leaves us in a state endless torture.  There is no assurance if ED is true.

Jesus came to defeat and destroy death so that all could be made alive.  If eternal death is true, either Jesus is a giant failure or the scripture is lying...

[WhiteWings]

But this is not the problem with ED (annihilation), and why UR's have a problem with it.  The real reason - like others have said - is that ED, like ET, makes God a failure, and thus provides no assurance that any of us will not end up in a state where God cannot or does not save us, and perhaps even leaves us in a state endless torture.  There is no assurance if ED is true.

I don't agree with that.
If ED is Scriptual the God and not against the will/desire of God then ED doesn't make God a failure.
But I do think ED is against His desire it would make Him a failure and therefore not true.
:2c:

[shawn]

I personally don't understand why so many UR believers are as much against this as ET


If I'm entirely honest with myself, I'd rather just cease to exist altogether one day rather than be forced to live forever, I'm more worried about others/myself being tortured forever than I am about wanting to go to heaven to be with the Lord forevermore

If UR isn't true then annihilation is the next best thing as at least there won't be ET, in other words what I'm saying, is simply this

If I had a choice between going to eternal bliss for myself at the expense of one person being tortured forever, or I have to give up my eternal bliss to save the person being tortured forever (IOW we are both annihilated), then I would choose to give up my eternal bliss

So much for the phantom [mod edit] that we all supposedly have, I couldn't even have chosen whether or not I wanted to play this game in the first place, to me it seems as if we are placed here without our consent and given an ultimatum of "turn or burn", if I understand this "True Gospel Threat"

Hi Truthseeker,

In itself I don't think there is much wrong with what you say above.  I would think many people would give up immortality (if they could) so others would not be tortured forever.  That in itself is a noble thing to - not all would do it (even some who claim to be Christian) - yet many would.  And I know what you mean that the idea of living forever seems scary and sometimes wishing for your own annihilation might provide more peace.  But God will provide a better life than all this now.  That is our hope.

But this is not the problem with ED (annihilation), and why UR's have a problem with it.  The real reason - like others have said - is that ED, like ET, makes God a failure, and thus provides no assurance that any of us will not end up in a state where God cannot or does not save us, and perhaps even leaves us in a state endless torture.  There is no assurance if ED is true.

Jesus came to defeat and destroy death so that all could be made alive.  If eternal death is true, either Jesus is a giant failure or the scripture is lying...

I don't believe this to be true.  There is assurance in Christ.  Those who are followers of Christ are saved.  This is beyond question.  I take much assurance in that fact.

[legoman]

But this is not the problem with ED (annihilation), and why UR's have a problem with it.  The real reason - like others have said - is that ED, like ET, makes God a failure, and thus provides no assurance that any of us will not end up in a state where God cannot or does not save us, and perhaps even leaves us in a state endless torture.  There is no assurance if ED is true.

I don't agree with that.
If ED is Scriptual the God and not against the will/desire of God then ED doesn't make God a failure.
But I do think ED is against His desire it would make Him a failure and therefore not true.
:2c:

"But I do think ED is against His desire it would make Him a failure and therefore not true."

That was my point...  :thumbsup: