I personally don't understand why so many UR believers are as much against this as ET
If I'm entirely honest with myself, I'd rather just cease to exist altogether one day rather than be forced to live forever, I'm more worried about others/myself being tortured forever than I am about wanting to go to heaven to be with the Lord forevermore
If UR isn't true then annihilation is the next best thing as at least there won't be ET, in other words what I'm saying, is simply this
If I had a choice between going to eternal bliss for myself at the expense of one person being tortured forever, or I have to give up my eternal bliss to save the person being tortured forever (IOW we are both annihilated), then I would choose to give up my eternal bliss
So much for the phantom [mod edit] that we all supposedly have, I couldn't even have chosen whether or not I wanted to play this game in the first place, to me it seems as if we are placed here without our consent and given an ultimatum of "turn or burn", if I understand this "True Gospel Threat" (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/all_whom_will_be_saved_need_repent_and_believe_gospel_8922.0.html)
Quote from: Truthseeker on November 22, 2010, 06:55:03 PM
I personally don't understand why so many UR believers are as much against this as ET
If I'm entirely honest with myself, I'd rather just cease to exist altogether one day rather than be forced to live forever, I'm more worried about others/myself being tortured forever than I am about wanting to go to heaven to be with the Lord forevermore
If UR isn't true then annihilation is the next best thing as at least there won't be ET, in other words what I'm saying, is simply this
If I had a choice between going to eternal bliss for myself at the expense of one person being tortured forever, or I have to give up my eternal bliss to save the person being tortured forever (IOW we are both annihilated), then I would choose to give up my eternal bliss
So much for the phantom [mod edit] that we all supposedly have, I couldn't even have chosen whether or not I wanted to play this game in the first place, to me it seems as if we are placed here without our consent and given an ultimatum of "turn or burn", if I understand this "True Gospel Threat" (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/all_whom_will_be_saved_need_repent_and_believe_gospel_8922.0.html)
My objection simply is that once you assert that a human being might be left to be eternally separated from God in any capacity (even if it might sound humane), there really is no assurance concerning what your fate might be in the first place.
If God cannot keep his promise to do all that he desires, then you have no assurance that he won't let you remain in a torturous state forever.
I'm just not going to live my life under that umbrella. It all can be discussed and argued, but that is how I look at things now.
Maybe you should ask yourself why UR peeps have problems with ED.
Because they think it's a bad thing to do?
Or because they think Scripture simply teaches ED is not true?
Or both?
Even if ET was true your eternal bliss has zero impact on the eternal hell of others.
Each person is personally judged.
You are not asked: What do you want? Eternal bliss and those 3 people to hell or ED for all 4 of you.
That thread is a ET thread. It's just how veiled people read things.
Please don't fall back in you old negative thoughts Shadow.
a] They hurt you.
b] God doesn't judge others by how you feel about it.
c] Nothing you do or don't do makes ET, ED, UR more or less true.
Best is to study. Read why people write on thsi forum and then lock yourself up in a quiet room and start verifying if it's true what they said.
Imo you should study away your fears. That way you no longer get infected by ET crap.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 22, 2010, 08:16:04 PM
Imo you should study away your fears. That way you no longer get infected by ET crap.
I second that.
Even if that doesn't make you a convinced UR believer, you'll at least notice ET'ers need to do much of the very same thing to support their beliefs they are accusing us of. That is, explaining away stuff.
A common argument against UR is the Greek word "malista" translated "especially" doesn't really mean "especially" but rather "in otherwords", "that is" or "exclusively". Hence, 1 Tim 4:10 is mistranslated. Okay so let's assume they're right. Let's assume "especially" means "that is".
1 Timothy 4:10 (Young's Literal Translation)
10 for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially that is, of those believing.So far it doesn't look that silly. But.
Galatians 6:10 (Young's Literal Translation)
10 therefore, then, as we have opportunity, may we work the good to all, and especially that is, unto those of the household of the faith.
Are all people believers?
Are we only supposed to be good to believers?
1 Timothy 5:17 (Young's Literal Translation)
17 The well-leading elders of double honour let them be counted worthy, especially that is, those labouring in word and teaching,Are all elders labouring in word and teaching?
Other elders shouldn't be counted worthy?
So, to support the ET position here one must accept "especially" means "especially" in the last two passages but more like "exclusively" in the first.
YLT2Tim 4
13 the cloak that I left in Troas with Carpus, coming, bring thou and the books--especially the parchments.
ET2Tim 4
13 the cloak that I left in Troas with Carpus, coming, bring thou and the books--that is the parchments.
Annihilation carries all the same faults of Eternal Torture, the only difference here - is that life is ceased, rather than tortured.
The root failure of ET is not in how evil it is - that is certainly a powerful reason to hate it. But the root failure of it - is that it makes God a failure.
Annihilation means that God did not succeed in his will and task of saving all mankind. The vast majority of mankind would be destroyed, and God would be the perpetual God of Death and the Dead, but God is the god of the living.
Nor are we created in His Image if His Image can be annihilated.
Indeed, and God is Love, Life, and Truth; so we are the image of Love, as well as Life, and Truth.
Love endures all things, and so...in summary it really doesn't make sense that his expressed reflection could be so obliterated. Much less that his expressed reflection of Love, Life, and Truth would not respond to its own kind.
Love responds to Love, every human being is just...plain and simple built to be loved, and to love, and it would be completely alien for any being to be able to resist Love so stubbornly when every obstacle of flesh, disease, hurt, and circumstances of embitterment are removed in the presence of the all consuming fire who burns away dross - that most Holy God.
Quote from: Lefein on November 23, 2010, 08:23:11 PM
Annihilation carries all the same faults of Eternal Torture, the only difference here - is that life is ceased, rather than tortured.
The root failure of ET is not in how evil it is - that is certainly a powerful reason to hate it. But the root failure of it - is that it makes God a failure.
Annihilation means that God did not succeed in his will and task of saving all mankind. The vast majority of mankind would be destroyed, and God would be the perpetual God of Death and the Dead, but God is the god of the living.
I would have to disagree. There is a large gap between ED and ET. I'm not sure how anyone can say that eternally torturing isn't infinitely worse than just death. There is so much scripture about the fate of nonbelievers it's hard to ignore or reason away. Look up destruction and see how many times it's listed when referencing people.
I'm not saying that mean ED is true. But, I'm saying there is significant scriptural support for it.
Separation from God, is separation from God. Tortured or not.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. 25 As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"
Quote from: Lefein on November 23, 2010, 08:42:01 PM
Separation from God, is separation from God. Tortured or not.
No one desputes that fact. But conscious seperation from God is significantly different then not existing. What did you know of life before you were born? Was it awful?
Does God not say that He knew us before we were born?
So, then, we must have also known Him.
I can know of someone without them knowing me, but, I can not truly know them as the Lord states He knows us.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 23, 2010, 08:52:54 PM
Does God not say that He knew us before we were born?
So, then, we must have also known Him.
I can know of someone without them knowing me, but, I can not truly know them as the Lord states He knows us.
I believe that to be a figure of speech rather than a statement supporting that we existed before we were born. He knew us because he is timeless and all knowing. He knew us before he created us.
Quote from: shawn on November 23, 2010, 08:56:22 PM
I believe that to be a figure of speech rather than a statement supporting that we existed before we were born.
I believe that to be a statement supporting that we existed before we were born — rather than a figure of speech.
I'm not sure yet, but there several verses that at the very least point toward pre-existance.
And none, I'm aware of, denies it.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 23, 2010, 09:01:32 PM
Quote from: shawn on November 23, 2010, 08:56:22 PM
I believe that to be a figure of speech rather than a statement supporting that we existed before we were born.
I believe that to be a statement supporting that we existed before we were born — rather than a figure of speech.
I won't deny the possibility of such a thing. Who am I to say it didn't happen that way? But, God is indeed all knowing, and is not confined by time. Therefore, he would have always known us before we were created.
Either way, doesn't really change much in my mind.
What I am leary of...us judging and labeling those who do not believe in UR. I do not know God's judgments nor do I claim to. But, I do know there is alot of scriptural support despite many here saying there isn't.
LS had a terrific post awhile back and I think I will post it here as a reminder.
Php 3:18 For many, as I have often told you and now tell you even in tears, conduct themselves as enemies of the cross of Christ.
Php 3:19 Their end is destruction.
2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.
2Pe 2:12 But these people, like irrational animals born by nature for capture and destruction, revile things that they do not understand, and in their destruction they will also be destroyed,
2Pe 2:13 suffering wrong as payment for wrongdoing
Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
Act 13:40 "Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:
Act 13:41 'BEHOLD, YOU SCOFFERS, AND MARVEL, AND PERISH;
FOR I AM ACCOMPLISHING A WORK IN YOUR DAYS,
A WORK WHICH YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE, THOUGH SOMEONE SHOULD DESCRIBE IT TO YOU.'"
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: die. the soul that sinneth, it shall die
Sir 15:14 When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice.
Sir 15:15 If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will.
Sir 15:16 There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand.
Sir 15:17 Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.
2Ma 7:14 When he was near death, he said, "It is my choice to die at the hands of men with the God-given hope of being restored to life by him; but for you, there will be no resurrection to life."
Psalms 37:10 "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall be no more."
Psa 5:6 You destroy those who speak falsehood;
The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.
Psalms 37:20 "The enemies of the Lord, like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish, into smoke they shall vanish away."
Psalms 37:38 "But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the future of the wicked shall be cut off."
Psa 73:27 But those who are far from you perish; you destroy those unfaithful to you.
Psalms 145:20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
Psalm 9:5-6
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
Endless ruin has overtaken the enemy,
you have uprooted their cities;
even the memory of them has perished.
Psalms 92: 7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
Proverbs 10:29 The way of the Lord is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
Proverbs 13:13 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.
Psalms 101:8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the Lord.
Psalms 21:10 Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.
Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more.
Obadiah 1:16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
Psalms 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
Psa 37:38 But transgressors will be altogether destroyed;
The posterity of the wicked will be cut off.
Proverbs 6:12-15
12 A scoundrel and villain,
who goes about with a corrupt mouth,
13 who winks with his eye,
signals with his feet
and motions with his fingers,
14 who plots evil with deceit in his heart—
he always stirs up dissension.
15 Therefore disaster will overtake him in an instant;
he will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy.
Psa 28:5 They pay no heed to the LORD'S works, to the deeds of God's hands. God will tear them down, never to be rebuilt.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.)
Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.
Rev 21:8 But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
1Co 15:45 so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,
1Co 15:45 Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:45 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."
1Co 15:45 In the same way also it is written, "THE FIRST MAN ADAM BECAME A LIVING ANIMAL"; the last Adam is a life-giving Spirit.
I read and understand this to mean than man/adam was FIRST(in its/his beginning) was a living soul/creature. Not something else. Or am I reading this in error?
I do not accept the teaching of annihilation, I do not reason that God would create man to annihilate man, I DO believe that He WILL RE-store man and He WILL RE-generate man.
Destroyed. For how long? An Age? Or without an end?
/EDIT I'm also not so sure is the best possible translation.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 23, 2010, 09:46:38 PM
1Co 15:45 so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,
1Co 15:45 Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:45 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."
1Co 15:45 In the same way also it is written, "THE FIRST MAN ADAM BECAME A LIVING ANIMAL"; the last Adam is a life-giving Spirit.
I read and understand this to mean than man/adam was FIRST(in its/his beginning) was a living soul/creature. Not something else. Or am I reading this in error?
I do not accept the teaching of annihilation, I do not reason that God would create man to annihilate man, I DO believe that He WILL RE-store man and He WILL RE-generate man.
And that is my hope Micah. With that said, I think it wise to be cautious when we judge those in the body of Christ because they believe differently than ourselves. I have seen some very concerning posts recently. I hope that gets nipped in the bud. And I am not talking to you. I am speaking to those who chose to seperate the body rather than embrace brothers with a different view point than our own.
Also, these scriptures are very interesting. I believe there is much to be derived from them. From my understanding, animals have a body and a soul. Man has body, soul, and spirit. Spirit is the part of us able to worship and have relationship with God. Before, I start thinking on these scriptures is this correct?
There is a groom and a bride.
Some Scriptures speak to one and another to another.
Quote from: Truthseeker on November 22, 2010, 06:55:03 PM
I personally don't understand why so many UR believers are as much against this as ET
If I'm entirely honest with myself, I'd rather just cease to exist altogether one day rather than be forced to live forever, I'm more worried about others/myself being tortured forever than I am about wanting to go to heaven to be with the Lord forevermore
If UR isn't true then annihilation is the next best thing as at least there won't be ET, in other words what I'm saying, is simply this
If I had a choice between going to eternal bliss for myself at the expense of one person being tortured forever, or I have to give up my eternal bliss to save the person being tortured forever (IOW we are both annihilated), then I would choose to give up my eternal bliss
So much for the phantom [mod edit] that we all supposedly have, I couldn't even have chosen whether or not I wanted to play this game in the first place, to me it seems as if we are placed here without our consent and given an ultimatum of "turn or burn", if I understand this "True Gospel Threat" (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/all_whom_will_be_saved_need_repent_and_believe_gospel_8922.0.html)
Hi Truthseeker,
In itself I don't think there is much wrong with what you say above. I would think many people would give up immortality (if they could) so others would not be tortured forever. That in itself is a noble thing to - not all would do it (even some who claim to be Christian) - yet many would. And I know what you mean that the idea of living forever seems scary and sometimes wishing for your own annihilation might provide more peace. But God will provide a better life than all this now. That is our hope.
But this is not the problem with ED (annihilation), and why UR's have a problem with it. The real reason - like others have said - is that ED, like ET, makes God a failure, and thus provides no assurance that any of us will not end up in a state where God cannot or does not save us, and perhaps even leaves us in a state endless torture. There is no assurance if ED is true.
Jesus came to defeat and destroy death so that all could be made alive. If eternal death is true, either Jesus is a giant failure or the scripture is lying...
Quote from: legoman on November 23, 2010, 10:06:55 PMBut this is not the problem with ED (annihilation), and why UR's have a problem with it. The real reason - like others have said - is that ED, like ET, makes God a failure, and thus provides no assurance that any of us will not end up in a state where God cannot or does not save us, and perhaps even leaves us in a state endless torture. There is no assurance if ED is true.
I don't agree with that.
If ED is Scriptual the God
and not against the will/desire of God then ED doesn't make God a failure.
But I do think ED is against His desire it would make Him a failure and therefore not true.
:2c:
Quote from: legoman on November 23, 2010, 10:06:55 PM
Quote from: Truthseeker on November 22, 2010, 06:55:03 PM
I personally don't understand why so many UR believers are as much against this as ET
If I'm entirely honest with myself, I'd rather just cease to exist altogether one day rather than be forced to live forever, I'm more worried about others/myself being tortured forever than I am about wanting to go to heaven to be with the Lord forevermore
If UR isn't true then annihilation is the next best thing as at least there won't be ET, in other words what I'm saying, is simply this
If I had a choice between going to eternal bliss for myself at the expense of one person being tortured forever, or I have to give up my eternal bliss to save the person being tortured forever (IOW we are both annihilated), then I would choose to give up my eternal bliss
So much for the phantom [mod edit] that we all supposedly have, I couldn't even have chosen whether or not I wanted to play this game in the first place, to me it seems as if we are placed here without our consent and given an ultimatum of "turn or burn", if I understand this "True Gospel Threat" (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/all_whom_will_be_saved_need_repent_and_believe_gospel_8922.0.html)
Hi Truthseeker,
In itself I don't think there is much wrong with what you say above. I would think many people would give up immortality (if they could) so others would not be tortured forever. That in itself is a noble thing to - not all would do it (even some who claim to be Christian) - yet many would. And I know what you mean that the idea of living forever seems scary and sometimes wishing for your own annihilation might provide more peace. But God will provide a better life than all this now. That is our hope.
But this is not the problem with ED (annihilation), and why UR's have a problem with it. The real reason - like others have said - is that ED, like ET, makes God a failure, and thus provides no assurance that any of us will not end up in a state where God cannot or does not save us, and perhaps even leaves us in a state endless torture. There is no assurance if ED is true.
Jesus came to defeat and destroy death so that all could be made alive. If eternal death is true, either Jesus is a giant failure or the scripture is lying...
I don't believe this to be true. There is assurance in Christ. Those who are followers of Christ are saved. This is beyond question. I take much assurance in that fact.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 23, 2010, 10:23:54 PM
Quote from: legoman on November 23, 2010, 10:06:55 PMBut this is not the problem with ED (annihilation), and why UR's have a problem with it. The real reason - like others have said - is that ED, like ET, makes God a failure, and thus provides no assurance that any of us will not end up in a state where God cannot or does not save us, and perhaps even leaves us in a state endless torture. There is no assurance if ED is true.
I don't agree with that.
If ED is Scriptual the God and not against the will/desire of God then ED doesn't make God a failure.
But I do think ED is against His desire it would make Him a failure and therefore not true.
:2c:
"But I do think ED is against His desire it would make Him a failure and therefore not true."
That was my point... :thumbsup:
Quote from: shawn on November 23, 2010, 10:26:35 PM
Quote from: legoman on November 23, 2010, 10:06:55 PM
Quote from: Truthseeker on November 22, 2010, 06:55:03 PM
I personally don't understand why so many UR believers are as much against this as ET
If I'm entirely honest with myself, I'd rather just cease to exist altogether one day rather than be forced to live forever, I'm more worried about others/myself being tortured forever than I am about wanting to go to heaven to be with the Lord forevermore
If UR isn't true then annihilation is the next best thing as at least there won't be ET, in other words what I'm saying, is simply this
If I had a choice between going to eternal bliss for myself at the expense of one person being tortured forever, or I have to give up my eternal bliss to save the person being tortured forever (IOW we are both annihilated), then I would choose to give up my eternal bliss
So much for the phantom [mod edit] that we all supposedly have, I couldn't even have chosen whether or not I wanted to play this game in the first place, to me it seems as if we are placed here without our consent and given an ultimatum of "turn or burn", if I understand this "True Gospel Threat" (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/all_whom_will_be_saved_need_repent_and_believe_gospel_8922.0.html)
Hi Truthseeker,
In itself I don't think there is much wrong with what you say above. I would think many people would give up immortality (if they could) so others would not be tortured forever. That in itself is a noble thing to - not all would do it (even some who claim to be Christian) - yet many would. And I know what you mean that the idea of living forever seems scary and sometimes wishing for your own annihilation might provide more peace. But God will provide a better life than all this now. That is our hope.
But this is not the problem with ED (annihilation), and why UR's have a problem with it. The real reason - like others have said - is that ED, like ET, makes God a failure, and thus provides no assurance that any of us will not end up in a state where God cannot or does not save us, and perhaps even leaves us in a state endless torture. There is no assurance if ED is true.
Jesus came to defeat and destroy death so that all could be made alive. If eternal death is true, either Jesus is a giant failure or the scripture is lying...
I don't believe this to be true. There is assurance in Christ. Those who are followers of Christ are saved. This is beyond question. I take much assurance in that fact.
The point I was making perhaps was not clear.
If God wants all to be saved
... yet some end up in ED (or even ET)
... then what assurance do we have that God will even be able to save ourselves, since He is not able to fulfill his desire to save all?
Quote from: legoman on November 23, 2010, 10:56:11 PM
Quote from: shawn on November 23, 2010, 10:26:35 PM
I don't believe this to be true. There is assurance in Christ. Those who are followers of Christ are saved. This is beyond question. I take much assurance in that fact.
The point I was making perhaps was not clear.
If God wants all to be saved
... yet some end up in ED (or even ET)
... then what assurance do we have that God will even be able to save ourselves, since He is not able to fulfill his desire to save all?
Another way to look at it. Suppose there are 2 scriptural statements:
1. God desires to save all
2. Followers of Christ are saved
Perhaps we can accept both of these as true factual statements.
So, if ED is true, this means:
1. God cannot fulfill (at least some of) His desires.
Therefore:
2. What assurance do we have that He will fulfill His desire to save followers of Christ? :dontknow:
See what I mean?
ET, ED and UR; all believe His will shall be done. None of them believes His plans will fail. The thing is that people understand the plan differently...
All=some, age=for ever. Need I say more.... :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 23, 2010, 11:06:29 PM
ET, ED and UR; all believe His will shall be done. None of them believes His plans will fail. The thing is that people understand the plan differently...
All=some, age=for ever. Need I say more.... :winkgrin:
Yep, on the surface of it, all are supported by the bible, even though they cannot all be simultaneously true. (IMHO with a bit of research you can determine for yourself that only UR can be true)... anyway...
In that respect it comes down to your heart:
1. is eternal torture justice? alot of people feel it is, so they think ET is true
2. or does God just dispose of the bad guys? some other people feel this is more merciful, so they think ED is true
3. or does God reconcile all (even the bad guys)? a few people think God is powerful enough to reconcile all
And of course God is in control of your heart too... :winkgrin:
1Ti 4:10
(ASV) For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men[/b], specially of them that believe.
(CLV) (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind,
(KJV) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
(Rotherham) For, to this end, are we toiling and contending, because we have set our hope on a Living God, Who is Saviour of all men—specially, of such as believe.
(RYLT-NT) for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing.
(WNT) and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers.
(YLT) for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men--especially of those believing.
G3122 specially
Quote from: legoman on November 23, 2010, 10:56:11 PM
The point I was making perhaps was not clear.
If God wants all to be saved
... yet some end up in ED (or even ET)
... then what assurance do we have that God will even be able to save ourselves, since He is not able to fulfill his desire to save all?
If I may?
God desires all to be saved ... but by His design has allowed man to reject Him utterly. This is great cost to God Himself, but Love doesn't force itself or seek its own interests, correct? (1 Cor 13) He "could" save all, but to me it isn't a question of whether He is able.
Does it not bring greater glory to God that all who love Him, do so freely? And if we freely love Him, I believe that there are some (a few) who would rather freely choose evil, and utterly reject Him.
In my mind, it's a question of His glory and His plan and His will be done.
Does that make sense?
1Co 15:22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
Is there something I need to know about "all?"
Quote from: LS on November 23, 2010, 11:19:25 PM
Quote from: legoman on November 23, 2010, 10:56:11 PM
The point I was making perhaps was not clear.
If God wants all to be saved
... yet some end up in ED (or even ET)
... then what assurance do we have that God will even be able to save ourselves, since He is not able to fulfill his desire to save all?
If I may?
God desires all to be saved ... but by His design has allowed man to reject Him utterly. This is great cost to God Himself, but Love doesn't force itself or seek its own interests, correct? (1 Cor 13) He "could" save all, but to me it isn't a question of whether He is able.
Does it not bring greater glory to God that all who love Him, do so freely? And if we freely love Him, I believe that there are some (a few) who would rather freely choose evil, and utterly reject Him.
In my mind, it's a question of His glory and His plan and His will be done.
Does that make sense?
Hi LS,
Yes I have seen that POV before.
There are 2 flaws I believe with this argument:
1. If God desires to save all, but implements a plan in which not all will be saved, then He didn't really desire to save all. God is in control, right?
2. Love is not really a 'free' action in the way you are describing. Even in scripture it says we love Him,
because He loved us. But consider love between a man and a wife. Is that love 'free'? 'free' from what you might ask? Free from influence? Certainly love is not free from influence. A man loves a woman because she is beautiful, kind, caring, compassionate, a good cook, is good with children, or any other number of reasons. A woman loves a man because he is handsome, strong, kind, protecting, understanding, and good with children, or again any other number of reasons.
So all of those qualities
influence the other to love that person. It is not 'free' in how you would like it to mean a free choice free from causation. All of these qualities like good looks, strength, kindness, etc. are admired and are attractive - they naturally attract us and
cause us to love. At first it is the superficial things that attract us like physical beauty, good cook, etc. but as we grow in love we learn to love the inner beauty of a person - kindness, compassion, patience - all the attributes of love described in 1 Cor 13.
Scripture confirms this because it tells us that man's natural state is to do evil - and we can only accept Christ when God draws us to Him.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 23, 2010, 11:23:36 PM
1Co 15:22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
Is there something I need to know about "all?"
It doesn't mean all.
Just kidding :laughing7: but that's what some people will tell you...
Quote from: LS on November 23, 2010, 11:19:25 PM
Quote from: legoman on November 23, 2010, 10:56:11 PM
The point I was making perhaps was not clear.
If God wants all to be saved
... yet some end up in ED (or even ET)
... then what assurance do we have that God will even be able to save ourselves, since He is not able to fulfill his desire to save all?
If I may?
God desires all to be saved ... but by His design has allowed man to reject Him utterly. This is great cost to God Himself, but Love doesn't force itself or seek its own interests, correct? (1 Cor 13) He "could" save all, but to me it isn't a question of whether He is able.
Does it not bring greater glory to God that all who love Him, do so freely? And if we freely love Him, I believe that there are some (a few) who would rather freely choose evil, and utterly reject Him.
In my mind, it's a question of His glory and His plan and His will be done.
Does that make sense?
LS...the main problem I have with this stance is the fact that we are born slaves to sin. There is no choice there. We didn't choose sin...we were born into it. The only way we can even be remotely open to the voice of God, to love God and to have relationship is by grace. Are you sure that God reveals himself to all...and those built for destruction reject him?
Lego...let me address your points.
1. If God desires to save all, but implements a plan in which not all will be saved, then He didn't really desire to save all. God is in control, right? Is it possible for God to desire two things that might conflict with each other...thus directing design? One takes priority over the other?
2. Love is not really a 'free' action in the way you are describing. Even in scripture it says we love Him, because He loved us. But consider love between a man and a wife. Is that love 'free'? 'free' from what you might ask? Free from influence? Certainly love is not free from influence. A man loves a woman because she is beautiful, kind, caring, compassionate, a good cook, is good with children, or any other number of reasons. A woman loves a man because he is handsome, strong, kind, protecting, understanding, and good with children, or again any other number of reasons.
So all of those qualities influence the other to love that person. It is not 'free' in how you would like it to mean a free choice free from causation. All of these qualities like good looks, strength, kindness, etc. are admired and are attractive - they naturally attract us and cause us to love. At first it is the superficial things that attract us like physical beauty, good cook, etc. but as we grow in love we learn to love the inner beauty of a person - kindness, compassion, patience - all the attributes of love described in 1 Cor 13.
Scripture confirms this because it tells us that man's natural state is to do evil - and we can only accept Christ when God draws us to Him.
I would agree with all of that.
I contend that there is not a single sentient soul - one who is the image of God, who can resist the Love of God ultimately.
God is Life, Love, Truth, etc, etc. But lets focus on Life, and Love.
If there was a man named Bob, who being made in the image of God, could some how or another be so stubborn, and hard that he did not respond to Love, and Life in all of His glory; if Bob could choose to hate Love itself when it stands boldly before him - fully known (everyone will come to the full knowledge of the truth) - nothing but the pure truth of love, known absolutely to the fullest --- if he could choose to hate Love, that heart would be embittered, and hard to such an extent that he would not have been born. It requires such an inglorious amount of separation from God, Love, Life, the source, maintainer, continuer of these things -- to respond negatively to pure-fully known-true Love, and Life. Such a separation from these, would be total absence of them. The man Bob, would be totally separated and absent of Life - he would never have been born, having no form of Life in him.
Annihilation requires the very same level of separation. It is simply impossible for a being to commit such existential suicide as annihilation, and no one I believe is capable of not responding positively to the full knowledge of Love, or even the lesser manifestations of His glory.
See Paul on the road to Damascus for example.
Quote from: shawn on November 23, 2010, 11:41:17 PM
Lego...let me address your points.
1. If God desires to save all, but implements a plan in which not all will be saved, then He didn't really desire to save all. God is in control, right? Is it possible for God to desire two things that might conflict with each other...thus directing design? One takes priority over the other?
I guess I take the position that God is focused, uncomprised, not "schizophrenic" to put it bluntly.
God is not a man. Men have to make many compromises - I would love to own a Ferrari but I can only afford a Toyota... to give a carnal example.
But I don't believe God has to make choices like that. What I believe God has done is picked the best way - in fact the only way - that we can come to a full knowledge of the truth.
So God cannot have two conflicting goals with different priorities - because the 2nd priority goal would never be achieved. That is what most of the mainstream believes. God has one goal and one goal only - to reproduce himself - to create billions of beings that will be like Himself - made in His image - to become LOVE itself - all coming to a full knowledge of the truth. The goal is not achieved yet. What we witness in this world is a product of what is necessary to achieve that goal.
Its not like there are two conflicting goals and only one can be achieved. No. There is only one goal and there is a plan to achieve that goal. If you only look at a small portion of the plan - it may look like the goal cannot be achieved. But it will be. This is God we are talking about. He cannot fail.
So back on point with ET and ED - essentially both of these doctrines suggest that God fails and does not fulfill His plan. That is, unless you think His plan was to eternally torture or annihilate most of mankind... (obviously some people do think that)...
Quote from: Lefein on November 23, 2010, 11:51:32 PM
I contend that there is not a single sentient soul - one who is the image of God, who can resist the Love of God ultimately.
Yes! :thumbsup:
...from another thread:
So, a guy tells me those in heaven have to continually eat from the tree of life for immortality.
i asked, those in eternal hell dont have a tree to eat from, how do they keep immortality?
i will let yall know what he says......
do these people even THINK???
chucjkt
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/immortality...._6260.0.html
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 24, 2010, 12:10:15 AM
...from another thread:
So, a guy tells me those in heaven have to continually eat from the tree of life for immortality.
i asked, those in eternal hell dont have a tree to eat from, how do they keep immortality?
i will let yall know what he says......
do these people even THINK???
chucjkt
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/immortality...._6260.0.html
Hey is that you Euty? I didn't realize you had changed your user ID.
Immortality is man's way of being redundant about what already belongs to them. Life.
There is Life, and then there is "living" under the principle of "dying you shall die". Thankfully, I have Life. I may shed this dying it shall die garment, this clay mush covered in aprons of skins...but I'll have a robe of glory in due time. But I have Life, I shall never die, I have Life, and he has me, I'll never slip out of his hands.
Quote from: shawn on November 23, 2010, 11:33:35 PM
LS...the main problem I have with this stance is the fact that we are born slaves to sin. There is no choice there. We didn't choose sin...we were born into it. The only way we can even be remotely open to the voice of God, to love God and to have relationship is by grace. Are you sure that God reveals himself to all...and those built for destruction reject him?
I think, first, that "reconciliation" we are discussing in another chapter comes into play here - He HAS reconciled the world - the sin debt all are born into has been paid.
I think there are many scriptures that tell us we are all born with a knowing of Him:
He set eternity on our hearts (Ecc 3:11)
God reveals Himself in all of nature: 19 For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse (Rom 1)
They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them (Rom 2:15)
I think these are the things within us that cause man to seek. And what happens when we seek?
29 Yet there too you shall seek the LORD, your God; and you shall indeed find him when you search after him with your whole heart and your whole soul. (Deut 4)
...and...
9 "And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.10 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Luke 11)
Those who have been exposed more fully to the truth of God's Word will be held more accountable to Him than those who have never heard it, but still all will be held accountable:
47 That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely;48 and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.
And finally, here is part of chapter 13 from Wisdom, a deutercanonical book. It's a little long, but it confirms that all mankind can know God even if we are never told or taught:
1 For all men were by nature foolish who were in ignorance of God, and who from the good things seen did not succeed in knowing him who is, and from studying the works did not discern the artisan;
2 But either fire, or wind, or the swift air, or the circuit of the stars, or the mighty water, or the luminaries of heaven, the governors of the world, they considered gods.
3 Now if out of joy in their beauty they thought them gods, let them know how far more excellent is the Lord than these; for the original source of beauty fashioned them.
4 Or if they were struck by their might and energy, let them from these things realize how much more powerful is he who made them.
5 For from the greatness and the beauty of created things their original author, by analogy, is seen.
6 But yet, for these the blame is less; For they indeed have gone astray perhaps, though they seek God and wish to find him.
7 For they search busily among his works, but are distracted by what they see, because the things seen are fair.
8 But again, not even these are pardonable.
9 For if they so far succeeded in knowledge that they could speculate about the world, how did they not more quickly find its LORD?
10 But doomed are they, and in dead things are their hopes, who termed gods things made by human hands: Gold and silver, the product of art, and likenesses of beasts, or useless stone, the work of an ancient hand.
There's a lot here, I know - I hope I was able to lay it out so it makes some sort of sense. As I've said before, I'm not a teacher and I know I get ahead of myself :mblush: [/color]
Quote from: Lefein on November 23, 2010, 11:51:32 PM
I contend that there is not a single sentient soul - one who is the image of God, who can resist the Love of God ultimately.
That
sounds good ... but I don't think that is supported by scripture. I'm not trying to be rude, but I do know our own reasoning isn't always right ... in the end we have to find it in the Bible and I don't think we can. :mblush:
Quote from: Lefein on November 23, 2010, 11:51:32 PM
See Paul on the road to Damascus for example.
A similar event happened to Balaam ... but He choose a much different path than Paul.
:grouppray:
Quote from: legoman on November 24, 2010, 12:17:06 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 24, 2010, 12:10:15 AM
...from another thread:
So, a guy tells me those in heaven have to continually eat from the tree of life for immortality.
i asked, those in eternal hell dont have a tree to eat from, how do they keep immortality?
i will let yall know what he says......
do these people even THINK???
chucjkt
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/immortality...._6260.0.html
Hey is that you Euty? I didn't realize you had changed your user ID.
No, it's not Euty, just me!
I just bumped the thread here because it was a brilliant question.
Quote from: LS on November 24, 2010, 12:44:06 AM
Quote from: Lefein on November 23, 2010, 11:51:32 PM
I contend that there is not a single sentient soul - one who is the image of God, who can resist the Love of God ultimately.
That sounds good ... but I don't think that is supported by scripture. I'm not trying to be rude, but I do know our own reasoning isn't always right ... in the end we have to find it in the Bible and I don't think we can. :mblush:
Quote from: Lefein on November 23, 2010, 11:51:32 PM
See Paul on the road to Damascus for example.
A similar event happened to Balaam ... but He choose a much different path than Paul.
:grouppray:
See this is where I am LS. UR really appeals to my logic, and emotions on a very deep level. I long for it. But, just because it feels good and makes sense logically doesn't mean that is God's plan. I
must find it in scripture. And while I do think there is some scriptural support for UR...even some tough verses for me to explain...ultimately I believe the english translations widely support ED. I speak english. That is the Bible I had placed in my hands. I am not a linguist nor will I completely trust the word of others on a particular subject in which I plead ignorance.
What I have found peace in is knowing that scripture does not support ET. I can indeed reconcil God who loves agape and ED. My reservations that surround ED is the reservations of many here. It doesn't feel like complete victory to my finite mind. But, I am not God nor does he need or seek my approval for his judgments.
Quote from: LS on November 24, 2010, 12:44:06 AM
Quote from: Lefein on November 23, 2010, 11:51:32 PM
I contend that there is not a single sentient soul - one who is the image of God, who can resist the Love of God ultimately.
That sounds good ... but I don't think that is supported by scripture. I'm not trying to be rude, but I do know our own reasoning isn't always right ... in the end we have to find it in the Bible and I don't think we can. :mblush:
Quote from: Lefein on November 23, 2010, 11:51:32 PM
See Paul on the road to Damascus for example.
A similar event happened to Balaam ... but He choose a much different path than Paul.
:grouppray:
Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess - God will have people worship
in Spirit, and
in Truth; No one can avow the name of Christ except by the Holy Spirit.
I am the Truth, none come to the Father but by me. -Jesus
Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess - God will have people worship in Spirit, by that same Spirit and in Jesus who is Truth, and the saviour, healer, life-giver of all men.
If someone has the Son, he has the Father. If someone is in the Son, he is in the Father - if someone is in God - God is in them; Life, Truth, Love are in them, and vice versa likewise.
Every single soul will confess, profess, avow, acclaim, assent, agree fully to, acknowledge; exomologeo -- God
God wills that everyone shall come to the full knowledge of The Truth - Jesus. To know Jesus, is to know the Father, to fully know Jesus is to be saved.
There is not just ample support - but full support that says that every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess; this means that everyone, the full wholeness of every bowable, and confessable being shall not resist God. There will be no silent tongue, and no unbent knee.
Which is greater, God's ability to command, or God himself who is love?
None shall resist God in his command to acknowledge and bow, it is fully reasonable and scriptural to say that none shall resist God-Love Himself who makes all things beautiful in his due time.
God will not be glorified if his children are divinely aborted after their adoring cry, and adoring bows in spirit, in truth, and after the full knowledge of Truth is given them. It would be...significantly ludicrous of God to slaughter the majority of his worshipers.
God will not lie to himself to force men to bow without reverence in Heaven having the full truth, after letting them choose lives of sin in ignorance while on the Earth. Why should he?
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 12:52:50 AM
See this is where I am LS. UR really appeals to my logic, and emotions on a very deep level. I long for it. But, just because it feels good and makes sense logically doesn't mean that is God's plan. I must find it in scripture. And while I do think there is some scriptural support for UR...even some tough verses for me to explain...ultimately I believe the english translations widely support ED. I speak english. That is the Bible I had placed in my hands. I am not a linguist nor will I completely trust the word of others on a particular subject in which I plead ignorance.
What I have found peace in is knowing that scripture does not support ET. I can indeed reconcil God who loves agape and ED. My reservations that surround ED is the reservations of many here. It doesn't feel like complete victory to my finite mind. But, I am not God nor does he need or seek my approval for his judgments.
I don't disagree with a single word you wrote ... I am in the same place.
Peace to you - it was good seeing you again :cloud9:
Quote from: Lefein on November 24, 2010, 01:11:24 AM
Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess - God will have people worship in Spirit, and in Truth; No one can avow the name of Christ except by the Holy Spirit.
I am the Truth, none come to the Father but by me. -Jesus
Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess - God will have people worship in Spirit, by that same Spirit and in Jesus who is Truth, and the saviour, healer, life-giver of all men.
If someone has the Son, he has the Father. If someone is in the Son, he is in the Father - if someone is in God - God is in them; Life, Truth, Love are in them, and vice versa likewise.
Hi Lefein ... just a few question (and I have no answer for them ... they are just the questions I ask myself when people show me the verses about every knee bowing) ...
Does every bowed knee do so in love and reverence ... or in defeat? Does this bowing take place before judgment ... or could this occur after the wicked are destroyed and it is those who are saved that are all bowing?
Your passages about the Son and the Father called to mind John 8, when Jesus talks about those who belong to His Father, and contrasts them with those whose father is the devil.
Those are just some final thoughts; thank you for reading & replying :Peace:
QuoteDoes every bowed knee do so in love and reverence ... or in defeat?
What better thing for any child, than to be humiliated, and defeated by the all loving, merciful, not-vindictive, forgiving Father who has brought a person to such a state as to have lost all sense of self-leaning pride, such pride that would cause such a person to have rebelled against God in the first place?
It is pride, sin, shame, guilt, and self-centeredness that causes someone to not bow to God - for someone to bow into defeat, is to be humbled by God who has taken the man out of that self-hell of inhumble darkness, and separation from the Father. Why would the loving Father having humbled a man, throw him back into his hell - just so he could destroy the man for his past sins?
Does God, despite what the scriptures say - actually remember the sins of the past that man has repented of? Even and especially since bowing in defeat, and confessing the name of the Lord in Spirit, and in Truth, worshiping even and especially out of acknowledgment of God's glory, and their own defeat being is (imo) the highest, and most acted out way of repenting.
For someone to bow in defeat, is to bow in love and reverence. The man who offers up his life in the sinner's prayer, does so in defeat; and his offering is nothing less glorifying and beautiful to God than what will occur in Heaven when they bow, and confess the name of God whether it is in supplication, or in praise.
To be defeated by God, is to be defeated by a just king worthy of chivalric faerie tales. :2c:
QuoteDoes this bowing take place before judgment ... or could this occur after the wicked are destroyed and it is those who are saved that are all bowing?
If I may be bold, I think it is not an event, but a lifestyle being described.
QuoteYour passages about the Son and the Father called to mind John 8, when Jesus talks about those who belong to His Father, and contrasts them with those whose father is the devil.
God has knit every child in his mother's womb, given it his breath, made it in his image, and knew it before it was ever born, orders its steps, and sends the rain upon it; whether just, or unjust.
The Father is the father of the prodigal, just the same as he is the father the one who remained.
__ __ __
And Jabcat; :thumbsup:
Sorry Lefein, I was still "meddling"... my post you :thumbsup: is ending up here now. :mblush: (Thanks!)
----------------------
IMO, a definitive key verse;
KJV and derivatives translation - ...no one can say Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy (Ghost) Spirit"; despite the many scriptures to the contrary, this one verse as translated could leave room for the interpretation of a forced, "defeated" bowing;
More accurate translations, including the most literal to the New Contract Writings (NT) Koine Greek;
...no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except IN the Holy (Pure) Spirit.
Vital difference. Reconciling many scriptures, being IN the Holy Spirit = reconciled, redeemed, restored, born anew from above.
Quote from: LS on November 24, 2010, 01:52:47 AM
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 12:52:50 AM
See this is where I am LS. UR really appeals to my logic, and emotions on a very deep level. I long for it. But, just because it feels good and makes sense logically doesn't mean that is God's plan. I must find it in scripture. And while I do think there is some scriptural support for UR...even some tough verses for me to explain...ultimately I believe the english translations widely support ED. I speak english. That is the Bible I had placed in my hands. I am not a linguist nor will I completely trust the word of others on a particular subject in which I plead ignorance.
What I have found peace in is knowing that scripture does not support ET. I can indeed reconcil God who loves agape and ED. My reservations that surround ED is the reservations of many here. It doesn't feel like complete victory to my finite mind. But, I am not God nor does he need or seek my approval for his judgments.
I don't disagree with a single word you wrote ... I am in the same place.
Peace to you - it was good seeing you again :cloud9:
Always good seeing you post as well. I also appreciate your thoughts and prayers for my family.
Quote from: Lefein on November 24, 2010, 02:28:47 AM
QuoteDoes every bowed knee do so in love and reverence ... or in defeat?
What better thing for any child, than to be humiliated, and defeated by the all loving, merciful, not-vindictive, forgiving Father who has brought a person to such a state as to have lost all sense of self-leaning pride, such pride that would cause such a person to have rebelled against God in the first place?
For someone to bow in defeat, is to bow in love and reverence. The man who offers up his life in the sinner's prayer, does so in defeat; and his offering is nothing less glorifying and beautiful to God than what will occur in Heaven when they bow, and confess the name of God whether it is in supplication, or in praise.
To be defeated by God, is to be defeated by a just king worthy of chivalric faerie tales. :2c:
Amen. Another pertinent question; what do the scriptures say happens when one confesses Jesus as Lord? :bgdance:
Jabcat; That they're saved! :boyheart: Aelleluyah!
PS: see some edits to my post, it might bolster things I've already said. :)
PSS: more edits to grammar lol xD
Quote from: shawn on November 23, 2010, 08:41:06 PM
Quote from: Lefein on November 23, 2010, 08:23:11 PM
Annihilation carries all the same faults of Eternal Torture, the only difference here - is that life is ceased, rather than tortured.
The root failure of ET is not in how evil it is - that is certainly a powerful reason to hate it. But the root failure of it - is that it makes God a failure.
Annihilation means that God did not succeed in his will and task of saving all mankind. The vast majority of mankind would be destroyed, and God would be the perpetual God of Death and the Dead, but God is the god of the living.
I would have to disagree. There is a large gap between ED and ET. I'm not sure how anyone can say that eternally torturing isn't infinitely worse than just death. There is so much scripture about the fate of nonbelievers it's hard to ignore or reason away. Look up destruction and see how many times it's listed when referencing people.
I'm not saying that mean ED is true. But, I'm saying there is significant scriptural support for it.
In
YOUR opinion... I noticed No "Scriptural support" was named by you... :dontknow:
The FALSE propositions of either
ED or
ET still leaves GOD's plan to SAVE the WORLD He so LOVED... a failure... and the
WORD which was sent out to accomplish (seek and save the LOST --
Luke 19:10 --
ALL which are IN ADAM --
1 Cor 15:22 -- are "LOST") --
Isaiah 55:11 -- DOES indeed "return" ...VOID... :sigh:
YHVH being an UNCHANGING being... shall always
LOVE the WORLD which did NOT return to Him... in the EMPTINESS of the failure.
If even ONE is "lost" (which is the point of the parable of the LOST SHEEP), then the COMPLETE number remains INCOMPLETE... :dontknow:
And the Shepherd which was SENT to seek the LOST sheep, and did not FIND them and SAVE them... has failed in His effort. :thumbdown:
willieH :cloud9:
Hallelujah! WillieH. :grin:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 24, 2010, 12:44:44 AM
Quote from: legoman on November 24, 2010, 12:17:06 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 24, 2010, 12:10:15 AM
...from another thread:
So, a guy tells me those in heaven have to continually eat from the tree of life for immortality.
i asked, those in eternal hell dont have a tree to eat from, how do they keep immortality?
i will let yall know what he says......
do these people even THINK???
chucjkt
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/immortality...._6260.0.html
Hey is that you Euty? I didn't realize you had changed your user ID.
No, it's not Euty, just me!
I just bumped the thread here because it was a brilliant question.
Oh sorry I was confused!
Yes it was a good question...
Quote from: willieH on November 24, 2010, 03:20:53 AM
Quote from: shawn on November 23, 2010, 08:41:06 PM
Quote from: Lefein on November 23, 2010, 08:23:11 PM
Annihilation carries all the same faults of Eternal Torture, the only difference here - is that life is ceased, rather than tortured.
The root failure of ET is not in how evil it is - that is certainly a powerful reason to hate it. But the root failure of it - is that it makes God a failure.
Annihilation means that God did not succeed in his will and task of saving all mankind. The vast majority of mankind would be destroyed, and God would be the perpetual God of Death and the Dead, but God is the god of the living.
I would have to disagree. There is a large gap between ED and ET. I'm not sure how anyone can say that eternally torturing isn't infinitely worse than just death. There is so much scripture about the fate of nonbelievers it's hard to ignore or reason away. Look up destruction and see how many times it's listed when referencing people.
I'm not saying that mean ED is true. But, I'm saying there is significant scriptural support for it.
In YOUR opinion... I noticed No "Scriptural support" was named by you... :dontknow:
The FALSE propositions of either ED or ET still leaves GOD's plan to SAVE the WORLD He so LOVED... a failure... and the WORD which was sent out to accomplish (seek and save the LOST -- Luke 19:10 -- ALL which are IN ADAM -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- are "LOST") -- Isaiah 55:11 -- DOES indeed "return" ...VOID... :sigh:
YHVH being an UNCHANGING being... shall always LOVE the WORLD which did NOT return to Him... in the EMPTINESS of the failure.
If even ONE is "lost" (which is the point of the parable of the LOST SHEEP), then the COMPLETE number remains INCOMPLETE... :dontknow:
And the Shepherd which was SENT to seek the LOST sheep, and did not FIND them and SAVE them... has failed in His effort. :thumbdown:
willieH :cloud9:
Really? You must have missed my lengthy list on the first page of scriptural support. I will repost it here for you.
Php 3:18 For many, as I have often told you and now tell you even in tears, conduct themselves as enemies of the cross of Christ.
Php 3:19 Their end is destruction.
2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.
2Pe 2:12 But these people, like irrational animals born by nature for capture and destruction, revile things that they do not understand, and in their destruction they will also be destroyed,
2Pe 2:13 suffering wrong as payment for wrongdoing
Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
Act 13:40 "Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:
Act 13:41 'BEHOLD, YOU SCOFFERS, AND MARVEL, AND PERISH;
FOR I AM ACCOMPLISHING A WORK IN YOUR DAYS,
A WORK WHICH YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE, THOUGH SOMEONE SHOULD DESCRIBE IT TO YOU.'"
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: die. the soul that sinneth, it shall die
Sir 15:14 When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice.
Sir 15:15 If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will.
Sir 15:16 There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand.
Sir 15:17 Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.
2Ma 7:14 When he was near death, he said, "It is my choice to die at the hands of men with the God-given hope of being restored to life by him; but for you, there will be no resurrection to life."
Psalms 37:10 "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall be no more."
Psa 5:6 You destroy those who speak falsehood;
The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.
Psalms 37:20 "The enemies of the Lord, like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish, into smoke they shall vanish away."
Psalms 37:38 "But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the future of the wicked shall be cut off."
Psa 73:27 But those who are far from you perish; you destroy those unfaithful to you.
Psalms 145:20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
Psalm 9:5-6
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
Endless ruin has overtaken the enemy,
you have uprooted their cities;
even the memory of them has perished.
Psalms 92: 7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
Proverbs 10:29 The way of the Lord is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
Proverbs 13:13 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.
Psalms 101:8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the Lord.
Psalms 21:10 Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.
Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more.
Obadiah 1:16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
Psalms 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
Psa 37:38 But transgressors will be altogether destroyed;
The posterity of the wicked will be cut off.
Proverbs 6:12-15
12 A scoundrel and villain,
who goes about with a corrupt mouth,
13 who winks with his eye,
signals with his feet
and motions with his fingers,
14 who plots evil with deceit in his heart—
he always stirs up dissension.
15 Therefore disaster will overtake him in an instant;
he will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy.
Psa 28:5 They pay no heed to the LORD'S works, to the deeds of God's hands. God will tear them down, never to be rebuilt.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.)
Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.
Rev 21:8 But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
Quote from: jabcat on November 24, 2010, 02:34:34 AM
Quote from: Lefein on November 24, 2010, 02:28:47 AM
QuoteDoes every bowed knee do so in love and reverence ... or in defeat?
What better thing for any child, than to be humiliated, and defeated by the all loving, merciful, not-vindictive, forgiving Father who has brought a person to such a state as to have lost all sense of self-leaning pride, such pride that would cause such a person to have rebelled against God in the first place?
For someone to bow in defeat, is to bow in love and reverence. The man who offers up his life in the sinner's prayer, does so in defeat; and his offering is nothing less glorifying and beautiful to God than what will occur in Heaven when they bow, and confess the name of God whether it is in supplication, or in praise.
To be defeated by God, is to be defeated by a just king worthy of chivalric faerie tales. :2c:
Amen. Another pertinent question; what do the scriptures say happens when one confesses Jesus as Lord? :bgdance:
Yes Amen! Every knee will bow, every tongue will confess and even
swear allegiance! That is what it says in Isaiah 45, and the Lord has sworn that all will do it. I believe Him!
Quote from: LS on November 23, 2010, 11:19:25 PM
Quote from: legoman on November 23, 2010, 10:56:11 PM
The point I was making perhaps was not clear.
If God wants all to be saved
... yet some end up in ED (or even ET)
... then what assurance do we have that God will even be able to save ourselves, since He is not able to fulfill his desire to save all?
If I may?
God desires all to be saved ...
GOD is an UNCHANGING being... so His "desires" shall NEVER CHANGE. If His "desires" are not met... then His "desires" are IMPERFECT, and He is therefore NOT PERFECT...
Even then... in proposing "desire" as a "watered down" presentation of the UNCHANGIN WILL of
YHVH, ...You willingly ignore --
2 Pet 3:9 -- which notes the word
BOULEMA as translated "willing" which means
INTENT...
Quote from: LS on November 23, 2010, 11:19:25 PM
but by His design has allowed man to reject Him utterly.
Upon what Scripture do you found this statement? :dontknow: (that "He allowed man to reject Him)
You are ignoring the FACT that He CONCLUDED ALL in UNBELIEF... it does not say that "He allowed" them to reject... they were CONCLUDED by Him to "reject" --
Rom 11:32 Not only that but it is STATED that NO MAN has "resisted HIS WILL" --
Rom 9:19Quote from: LS on November 23, 2010, 11:19:25 PMThis is great cost to God Himself, but Love doesn't force itself or seek its own interests, correct? (1 Cor 13) He "could" save all, but to me it isn't a question of whether He is able.
You FALSELY tie the hands of the ALMIGHTY and render Him, less than ALMIGHTY... "He COULD save all, but to me it isnt a question of whether He is able"... and in doing so, RENDER Him (which "COULD" save all"), ...a hypocrite which tells NOT the truth, claiming Himself a NON-RESPECTER of PERSONS, and in that HYPOCRISY, in truth was their DELIVERER which COULD have delivered them, but DID NOT. :thumbdown:
Quote from: LS on November 23, 2010, 11:19:25 PMDoes it not bring greater glory to God that all who love Him, do so freely? And if we freely love Him, I believe that there are some (a few) who would rather freely choose evil, and utterly reject Him.
FIRST ---
MOD EDIT... in the above words... crediting SALVATION to YOUR DECISION to "freely love Him"?... :thumbdown:
SECOND --- Either GOD saves us of HIS DOING COMPLETELY (without a "needed assistance" from SINNERS and their "free love" of Him), and is therefore the DELIVERER, ...OR... we DELIVER ourselves by "freely loving Him"... :dontknow:
QuoteIn my mind, it's a question of His glory and His plan and His will be done.
Well... I have already posted the Scripture which notes that NO MAN has "resisted" His will... INCLUDING those who are FAULTED for disobedience... for He YET fault them, even though they had no "choice" to resist --
Rom 9:19-23 -- and is stated as MAKER of both the vessels of DISHONOR as well as those of HONOR...
Quote from: LS on November 23, 2010, 11:19:25 PMDoes that make sense?
Actuallly, no... it does not "
make sense" that a GOD which LOVES the WORLD (which He FOREKNEW to do as they DID and brought them forth without regard to that knowledge), ...but sent His Son to redeem it... and then would "turn coat" and either DESTROY by FIRE, or TORMENT that WORLD He so (FOREVER) LOVES...
Obviously you have little experience in the dealings of LOVE... Love thinks of OTHERS, not of SELF... and GOD knowing that we are in a condition which is IN PERIL... did just THAT. Even though you cannot see it in this moment... :cloud9:
willieH :cloud9:
I see much philosophical reasoning in this thread. If this is like this...then this must be this type of thought. Personally, I am not bright enough to reason out God. I can read scripture but will only understand if the Holy Spirit unveils my eyes. So, for me I will read the Bible set before me and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to me what he wants me to know. Everything else will have to wait until I meet God.
Willie, just a question. Do you find that your tone to other believers is condescending and judgmental? You very well might not, or for some reason you feel you are entitled to speak to other believers like you do. If I was thin skinned I might find you offensive. I love you as a brother in Christ but I can say I do not appreciate your tone towards me, LS, or any other member that disagrees with you. MOD EDIT
PS- A simple apology would be appreciated for accusing me of not using scripture to support my views.
I, myself, me.. find the words of Bro. WillieH very up lifting and quite helpful. My reason for this perhaps is that I Iagree with the Word of God..The Bible is very open to the saints who desire to know that Father loves all His creation and that not one is left out of His plan, not even those believers who have a desire to see one lost will be lost. Destroyed, ruined yes to be made over yes, but lost to ET or ED nope, not in His plan. :grin:
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AM
Really? You must have missed my lengthy list on the first page of scriptural support. I will repost it here for you.
Php 3:18 For many, as I have often told you and now tell you even in tears, conduct themselves as enemies of the cross of Christ.
Php 3:19 Their end is destruction.
2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.
2Pe 2:12 But these people, like irrational animals born by nature for capture and destruction, revile things that they do not understand, and in their destruction they will also be destroyed,
2Pe 2:13 suffering wrong as payment for wrongdoing
Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
Act 13:40 "Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:
Act 13:41 'BEHOLD, YOU SCOFFERS, AND MARVEL, AND PERISH;
FOR I AM ACCOMPLISHING A WORK IN YOUR DAYS,
A WORK WHICH YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE, THOUGH SOMEONE SHOULD DESCRIBE IT TO YOU.'"
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: die. the soul that sinneth, it shall die
Sir 15:14 When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice.
Sir 15:15 If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will.
Sir 15:16 There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand.
Sir 15:17 Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.
2Ma 7:14 When he was near death, he said, "It is my choice to die at the hands of men with the God-given hope of being restored to life by him; but for you, there will be no resurrection to life."
Psalms 37:10 "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall be no more."
Psa 5:6 You destroy those who speak falsehood;
The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.
Psalms 37:20 "The enemies of the Lord, like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish, into smoke they shall vanish away."
Psalms 37:38 "But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the future of the wicked shall be cut off."
Psa 73:27 But those who are far from you perish; you destroy those unfaithful to you.
Psalms 145:20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
Psalm 9:5-6
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
Endless ruin has overtaken the enemy,
you have uprooted their cities;
even the memory of them has perished.
Psalms 92: 7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
Proverbs 10:29 The way of the Lord is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
Proverbs 13:13 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.
Psalms 101:8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the Lord.
Psalms 21:10 Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.
Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more.
Obadiah 1:16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
Psalms 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
Psa 37:38 But transgressors will be altogether destroyed;
The posterity of the wicked will be cut off.
Proverbs 6:12-15
12 A scoundrel and villain,
who goes about with a corrupt mouth,
13 who winks with his eye,
signals with his feet
and motions with his fingers,
14 who plots evil with deceit in his heart—
he always stirs up dissension.
15 Therefore disaster will overtake him in an instant;
he will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy.
Psa 28:5 They pay no heed to the LORD'S works, to the deeds of God's hands. God will tear them down, never to be rebuilt.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.)
Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.
Rev 21:8 But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
Hi Shawn,
I don't think anyone is denying that the wicked will be destroyed - that is what you think these verses mean right? The wicked will be destroyed - I agree, hallelujah! There won't be any wicked people in heaven - it wouldn't be much of a heaven if there were still wicked people around?
However this destruction cannot mean annihilation or eternal death, for that would contradict all the other verses that have been raised - God will have all men to be saved - all will be made alive in Christ - every knee will bow and every tongue confess and even swear allegiance to Him. etc.
So it is imperative to understand what is meant when we read the wicked are destroyed.
Consider Saul/Paul. He should be viewed as the "everyman" - the model for all conversion. First note it was God who did the converting - God is in control. Secondly why was he first called Saul - the chief of sinners who persecuted and killed many, but then when he was converted he became the great apostle Paul?
After Paul's conversion, Saul was no more - he was destroyed. The wicked Saul was destroyed
by destroying the wickedness out of himself. This left only Paul.
Saul was the old carnal self, Paul was the new creation. Note that we all start with a physical name, but when we are converted we are given a new name. The old man is destroyed.
We learn that names are written in the "book of life" (which is Christ). We can be rest assured that Saul was not written in the book of life, but Paul most certainly is. And so it will be for all of us. Like I said, Saul/Paul is the "everyman" - he is the model, for God is not respecter of persons; so all will be converted in a similar manner as Paul was.
And so the wicked are truly destroyed when our carnal self is fully and completely destroyed.
Please consider this when reading the verses you posted above.
Peace out Shawn...
:msealed:
Give me the serenity to accept the things I can't change...the courage to change what I can...And the wisdom to know the difference...
In Jesus' name - Amen...
Quote from: legoman on November 24, 2010, 05:48:53 AM
[Hi Shawn,
I don't think anyone is denying that the wicked will be destroyed - that is what you think these verses mean right? The wicked will be destroyed - I agree, hallelujah! There won't be any wicked people in heaven - it wouldn't be much of a heaven if there were still wicked people around?
However this destruction cannot mean annihilation or eternal death, for that would contradict all the other verses that have been raised - God will have all men to be saved - all will be made alive in Christ - every knee will bow and every tongue confess and even swear allegiance to Him. etc.
So it is imperative to understand what is meant when we read the wicked are destroyed.
Consider Saul/Paul. He should be viewed as the "everyman" - the model for all conversion. First note it was God who did the converting - God is in control. Secondly why was he first called Saul - the chief of sinners who persecuted and killed many, but then when he was converted he became the great apostle Paul?
After Paul's conversion, Saul was no more - he was destroyed. The wicked Saul was destroyed by destroying the wickedness out of himself. This left only Paul.
Saul was the old carnal self, Paul was the new creation. Note that we all start with a physical name, but when we are converted we are given a new name. The old man is destroyed.
We learn that names are written in the "book of life" (which is Christ). We can be rest assured that Saul was not written in the book of life, but Paul most certainly is. And so it will be for all of us. Like I said, Saul/Paul is the "everyman" - he is the model, for God is not respecter of persons; so all will be converted in a similar manner as Paul was.
And so the wicked are truly destroyed when our carnal self is fully and completely destroyed.
Please consider this when reading the verses you posted above.
Peace out Shawn...
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 24, 2010, 05:37:03 AM
I, myself, me.. find the words of Bro. WillieH very up lifting and quite helpful. My reason for this perhaps is that I Iagree with the Word of God..The Bible is very open to the saints who desire to know that Father loves all His creation and that not one is left out of His plan, not even those believers who have a desire to see one lost will be lost. Destroyed, ruined yes to be made over yes, but lost to ET or ED nope, not in His plan. :grin:
You might agree with what he says...but do you agree with how he says it? Do you think it's needed to abuse other believers? When someone consistantly crosses other peoples boundries I consider it abusive. Maybe that is just me.
Quote from: Lefein on November 24, 2010, 05:49:33 AM
:msealed:
Give me the serenity to accept the things I can't change...the courage to change what I can...And the wisdom to know the difference...
In Jesus' name - Amen...
Amen. That sounds familiar for some reason. :bigGrin:
...maybe I need to work on being a little less sensitive. :bigGrin:
willieH: Hi Truthseeker...
Just wanted to address the OP... and its "proposal"...
Is this what the Jewish victims of HITLER thought? -- Do you really think they thought: "whats so bad about ANNHILATION, anyway, ...hey, it aint so bad getting BURNED to death... after all, gotta go sometime"
:omg: ???????????? :mshock:
willieH :winkgrin:
Quote
Please, do tell, Lefein.
I agree with Shawn. I will say no further - I'm already prodding the line, and my point was only to express that he is not alone in his observations, neither is it "just him".
One of the biggest problems with Annihilation, is that it continues The Law, rather than the Grace of Christ which fulfilled it.
Obviously you have little experience in the dealings of LOVE... Love thinks of OTHERS, not of SELF... and GOD knowing that we are in a condition which is IN PERIL... did just THAT. Even though you cannot see it in this moment... :cloud9:
willieH
Ls don't worry about willies remarks, I believe you are sincere in love and the lord and care a great deal about people. Having knowledge that all be saved is not entirely based on love, but is something that is revealed through experience, study and time.
willieH were you not once a non beliver in the salvation of all. So why do you make statements such as these above to fellow believer LS.
Having knowledge of THE Salvation of ALL, YOU think YOURSELF to be BE RIGHTEOUS , and fellow believer LS unrighteous :thumbdown: when the WORD says THAT all are UNRIGHTEOUS :dontknow:
:happy3: :laughing7:
Oh, just that.
When you said: "I better shut up before...," it seemed like you had more to say than — just that.
That's not true TTank.
That is preciously why Jesus was stripped naked.
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AM
Sir 15:14 When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice.
Sir 15:15 If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will.
Sir 15:16 There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand.
Sir 15:17 Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.
2Ma 7:14 When he was near death, he said, "It is my choice to die at the hands of men with the God-given hope of being restored to life by him; but for you, there will be no resurrection to life."
I don't think these are part of scripture, are they?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 24, 2010, 06:27:10 AM
That's not true TTank.
That is preciously why Jesus was stripped naked.
Jesus was/is righteous :thumbsup:
The book of Sirach, is not canon according to the Protestant Bible - I do not believe they are fully inspired myself. However, it does show a very keen insight into Jewish beliefs at the time, and this is important in its own right. And if I may say, while they are not fully inspired - I do believe God had a touch or two in the middle of this ancient-day "Christian book store best seller" or scripture-aligned teaching book.
A few inaccuracies, considered God-Breathed by Catholics, not Protestants - but in general a smart book that may be usable in a situation like this.
Sir 15:17 Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.
Dt 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Just one example...
You entirely missed legoman's point.
QuoteYou entirely missed legoman's point.
You don't even know the point I was addressing, unless you've assumed, and you know what assuming makes of you and me.
Was it not to legoman?
I was commenting on Sirach in general when it was brought up in regards to scripture. Not specifically Legoman's post.
I do not know what his point is, and so I expressed my own thought concerning it, and provided my own sample.
I apologise in hindsight for any confusion, or disharmony that may have arisen. And I forgive you Beloved Servant, for any disharmony perceived on my part.
You forgive me?
umm... lol
For what?
I was offended by you, I forgive you for it. Even if you did not mean to offend me. I am free from feeling offended now.
Though, I did nothing to offend you, you forgive me. Hmmm...
Well, if you're happy then that's all that matters.
Forgiveness isn't merely what we think of it. Forgiveness is the easiest way to begin moving on from any hurt, or displeased feeling one might have towards another - perceived or not. :thumbsup:
Forgiveness is more for "our sake" than it is for the forgiven - like you, they usually don't even know, (or in many cases care) that they've offended. It frees the forgiver to have peace, as well as exonerates the forgiven.
Quote from: Lefein on November 24, 2010, 07:08:18 AM
Forgiveness isn't merely what we think of it. Forgiveness is the easiest way to begin moving on from any hurt, or displeased feeling one might have towards another - perceived or not. :thumbsup:
Forgiveness is more for "our sake" than it is for the forgiven - like you, they usually don't even know, (or in many cases care) that they've offended. It frees the forgiver to have peace, as well as exonerates the forgiven.
Like me???
Like me what???
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 05:20:59 AM
Personally, I am not bright enough to reason out God. I can read scripture but will only understand if the Holy Spirit unveils my eyes. So, for me I will read the Bible set before me and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to me what he wants me to know. Everything else will have to wait until I meet God.
:thumbsup:
Even though you're not a staunch believer in UR, IMO you've raised some pertinent points in this thread Shawn.
You did not know that you offended me.
Can you guys go pm . Your taking up valuable real estate :laughing7:
Quote from: Lefein on November 24, 2010, 07:15:48 AM
You did not know that you offended me.
Please show me the quote to which you refer.
Back to the OP please. Thanks.
Quote from: legoman on November 24, 2010, 06:30:55 AM
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AM
Sir 15:14 When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice.
Sir 15:15 If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will.
Sir 15:16 There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand.
Sir 15:17 Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.
2Ma 7:14 When he was near death, he said, "It is my choice to die at the hands of men with the God-given hope of being restored to life by him; but for you, there will be no resurrection to life."
I don't think these are part of scripture, are they?
They are part of Catholic scripture and I was quoting LS's thread...as stated in the beginning. She is Catholic.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 24, 2010, 06:47:25 AM
Was it not to legoman?
I would love to know what you believe legoman's point was.
I am curious though. This is a group of Christians who very much mistrust the motives, and the translational abilities of 4-5th century church leaders. So, why is it that you trust their ability to canonize scripture? Where does the mistrust end?
lol, this is like a courtroom drama.
read back yourself. it's plain to see.
and why ask me?
ask him.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 24, 2010, 07:37:22 AM
lol, this is like a courtroom drama.
read back yourself. it's plain to see.
and why ask me?
ask him.
edit- because it's really not important.
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 07:32:22 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 24, 2010, 06:47:25 AM
Was it not to legoman?
I would love to know what you believe legoman's point was.
I am curious though. This is a group of Christians who very much mistrust the motives, and the translational abilities of 4-5th century church leaders. So, why is it that you trust their ability to canonize scripture? Where does the mistrust end?
Well I was just a little surprised because I had never seen a scripture that said anything about "free choice". Then I realized it wasn't actually scripture.
I didn't realize it was part of the Catholic bible - I should check it out (since I even go to a Catholic church! My wife is Catholic...)
Anyway since it is not "official canon", we shouldn't really use those books as proof of anything, other than some people wrote it down like that many centuries ago... I suppose it is interesting to quote them, but it should not be treated as scripture IMHO.
Drama, boy you got that right....Im on my second bowl of popcorn! :grin:
Popcorn is annihilated chaff :flamebreath:
Quote from: LS on November 24, 2010, 01:58:59 AMDoes every bowed knee do so in love and reverence ... or in defeat?
The usage of that word elsewhere in the Scripture makes me believe it's honest bowing.
And a blessed revelation:
Matthew 16:17;
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
Quote from: jabcat on November 24, 2010, 07:15:23 AM
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 05:20:59 AM
Personally, I am not bright enough to reason out God. I can read scripture but will only understand if the Holy Spirit unveils my eyes. So, for me I will read the Bible set before me and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to me what he wants me to know. Everything else will have to wait until I meet God.
:thumbsup:
Even though you're not a staunch believer in UR, IMO you've raised some pertinent points in this thread Shawn.
Amen. And more than that, when false witness was borne against you, you maintained your usual honesty, humility, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control - all fruits of the good Spirit. Thank you for reflecting our Lord so well :thumbsup:
On another board, a member used to preach hell, fire & brimstone. Anyone who disagreed in any measure was accused of "calling God a liar!" That same method of reasoning was used to accuse Shawn of "not believing" certain scriptures. If someone wants to level that claim against another person, they ought to prove with a direct quote of Shawn's own words saying, "I don't believe I Cor 15:26 is true." Anything less is a lie and I find it deeply disturbing. It reveals an entirely different spirit, imho.
Quote from: willieH on November 24, 2010, 06:10:46 AM
willieH: Hi Truthseeker...
Just wanted to address the OP... and its "proposal"...
Is this what the Jewish victims of HITLER thought? -- Do you really think they thought: "whats so bad about ANNHILATION, anyway, ...hey, it aint so bad getting BURNED to death... after all, gotta go sometime"
:omg: ???????????? :mshock:
willieH :winkgrin:
I was just addressing this from the perspective of the possibility of God not being all loving, which in all honesty I'm having a hard time believing when I see what the world is like, the evidence doesn't point to an all loving God, it may perhaps be an all powerful God, but not an all loving God, and I have to agree with what Shawn posted Here (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/whats_so_bad_annihilation_8940.msg111103.html#msg111103)
Besides who's to say that a 1000 years down the line, the same thing won't happen again, where people will rebel and the whole thing won't get started again
I'm also fed up with those that espouse ET trying to spread their toxic message all over the place...why must they hound me/others wherever we go on the www, because if what they say is true, then what difference does it make what we do/believe, as this whole life is just a cruel illusion and utter sham anyway, we are just cosmic pawns in a cruel game which we had no control over in the first place, and are just playing our particular role, in it's grim and ghastly prospective..........
Although ED also doesn't reflect an all loving God anymore than ET, at least an ED God is a trillion, billion times more merciful than an ET God, and at least one day there willl be peace and no suffering, even if one eventually has to become non-existent in order to do so
******************
Before you all jump down my throat, I appreciate the spirit of this forum as a whole, but is it possible that UR could really be wrong, I've never ever felt that it was right, as I do not see the evidence for this all benevolent God you all speak of
Quote from: Truthseeker on November 24, 2010, 07:35:29 PMAlthough ED also doesn't reflect an all loving God anymore than ET, at least an ED God is a trillion, billion times more merciful than an ET God
100% agreed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQp75TsnpSA&feature=related
Quote from: Truthseeker on November 24, 2010, 07:35:29 PM
Before you all jump down my throat, I appreciate the spirit of this forum as a whole, but is it possible that UR could really be wrong, I've never ever felt that it was right, as I do not see the evidence for this all benevolent God you all speak of
Hi Truthseeker,
I get what you are saying. For me hope and faith have a lot to do with.
Sure we could all have it wrong and maybe God is the ET God - or worse - maybe this is all a charade and God is the devil and will simply torture everyone forever - but what is the sense in hoping for that outcome?
It is my hope that God will have all people to be saved and all suffering will end one day. And I see evidence for this in the scriptures, and in circumstances I experience in this life.
Don't lose hope... that is part of what this life here is about - so we will learn and understand what hope is, and why it is a good thing. It is a good thing to hope for the best.
...and hope is never hopeless!
Spread the FIRE legoman!
http://www.youtube.com/user/rdthotl#p/a/f/0/i5dSIL358NM
:cloud9: Amen....go Lego, go Lego, go Lego..... :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 24, 2010, 07:46:21 PM
Quote from: Truthseeker on November 24, 2010, 07:35:29 PMAlthough ED also doesn't reflect an all loving God anymore than ET, at least an ED God is a trillion, billion times more merciful than an ET God
100% agreed.
Thankfully, someone agrees with the point I'm trying to get across here
Quote from: legoman on November 24, 2010, 08:24:27 PM
Quote from: Truthseeker on November 24, 2010, 07:35:29 PM
Before you all jump down my throat, I appreciate the spirit of this forum as a whole, but is it possible that UR could really be wrong, I've never ever felt that it was right, as I do not see the evidence for this all benevolent God you all speak of
Hi Truthseeker,
I get what you are saying. For me hope and faith have a lot to do with.
Sure we could all have it wrong and maybe God is the ET God - or worse - maybe this is all a charade and God is the devil and will simply torture everyone forever - but what is the sense in hoping for that outcome?
It is my hope that God will have all people to be saved and all suffering will end one day. And I see evidence for this in the scriptures, and in circumstances I experience in this life.
Don't lose hope... that is part of what this life here is about - so we will learn and understand what hope is, and why it is a good thing. It is a good thing to hope for the best.
It's hard not to lose hope, it also doesn't help that Jesus' followers keep threatening everybody that doesn't think like them with ET, it's always someone else going to hell...except themselves of course
Believe me, with the type of messages that Orthodox Christendom touts as the "good news" I have actually thought on occasion, that the bolded part of what you said could be true...what a truly horrific and scary concept
If Orthodox ET Christianity is right, then no sugarcoating, watering down or smooth talking, will ever alter that cold hard fact that the universe may be run by a cosmic despot and sadistic tyrant :mshock:
Quote from: Truthseeker on November 24, 2010, 09:57:50 PM
If Orthodox ET Christianity is right, then no sugarcoating, watering down or smooth talking, will ever alter that cold hard fact that the universe may be run by a cosmic despot and sadistic tyrant.
But they are not right and that is a malicious lie uttered forth from the den of inequity.
Quote from: Truthseeker on November 24, 2010, 09:57:50 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 24, 2010, 07:46:21 PM
Quote from: Truthseeker on November 24, 2010, 07:35:29 PMAlthough ED also doesn't reflect an all loving God anymore than ET, at least an ED God is a trillion, billion times more merciful than an ET God
100% agreed.
Thankfully, someone agrees with the point I'm trying to get across here
I agree with you too here.
Quote
Quote from: legoman on November 24, 2010, 08:24:27 PM
Quote from: Truthseeker on November 24, 2010, 07:35:29 PM
Before you all jump down my throat, I appreciate the spirit of this forum as a whole, but is it possible that UR could really be wrong, I've never ever felt that it was right, as I do not see the evidence for this all benevolent God you all speak of
Hi Truthseeker,
I get what you are saying. For me hope and faith have a lot to do with.
Sure we could all have it wrong and maybe God is the ET God - or worse - maybe this is all a charade and God is the devil and will simply torture everyone forever - but what is the sense in hoping for that outcome?
It is my hope that God will have all people to be saved and all suffering will end one day. And I see evidence for this in the scriptures, and in circumstances I experience in this life.
Don't lose hope... that is part of what this life here is about - so we will learn and understand what hope is, and why it is a good thing. It is a good thing to hope for the best.
It's hard not to lose hope, it also doesn't help that Jesus' followers keep threatening everybody that doesn't think like them with ET, it's always someone else going to hell...except themselves of course
Believe me, with the type of messages that Orthodox Christendom touts as the "good news" I have actually thought on occasion, that the bolded part of what you said could be true...what a truly horrific and scary concept
If Orthodox ET Christianity is right, then no sugarcoating, watering down or smooth talking, will ever alter that cold hard fact that the universe may be run by a cosmic despot and sadistic tyrant :mshock:
I guess you have to ask yourself, are they really Jesus followers if they threaten you with eternal hell? Jesus said 'many will come in my name... and deceive many'. There is a whole lot of deception in orthodox ET Christianity...
You are right that if Orthodox ET Christianity is right, we are all doomed - as I see it the only way ET could make sense (and I use the word "sense" here loosely) -if you don't end up in ET yourself- is if God either erases all are minds or changes us all so we will enjoy the eternal torment of others. This would be a very sad and scary heaven. But again why hope for such a scenario?
Sure maybe lots of people are telling you right now "you are going to hell..." because you don't do this or that. Is that what is bothering you so much Truthseeker? At a certain point you almost have to laugh it off, and realize what they are suggesting is so wrong - like water off a duck's back. I've come to realize that some of the people who are most lost in this world are the ones who believe and embrace the idea that God lets people be tortured forever.
Personally I am 100% convinced that eternal torment cannot be true. Certain life experiences have convinced me of this - like having kids. I cannot imagine that the God, who is love, created my little girl (she's 6 years old) so that she could possibly end up in a place of endless suffering. It just plain makes no sense at all.
Alot of it has come about by waking up from 'blind acceptance' and actually using a little logic and common sense to reason things out and go against 'what everyone else believes'. The majority is not always right. It really comes down to this: if God is good, and God is able to achieve His desires, then He most certainly will be able to save and reconcile all people.
So why hope for anything else? Why think that ET is true? Why think that ED is true? Why think there is no God? There is no hope in those beliefs. Logically, the best outcome is that 1) God exists, 2)He is good, and 3)He will be able to save, convert, and reconcile all people. Don't let fear corrupt your hope. And don't be afraid of using logic and reason. Its the doom & gloomers who like to say we can't understand God's logic and 'His ways are higher than our ways', implying God does the opposite of what human's think of as logic. I'm sorry but logic is what the truth is based on and Jesus is the truth. I'm not saying I can understand all of God, but I can certainly understand that it is not loving or justice to torture someone infinitely. I can also understand that Jesus came to defeat death so that all can live.
Personally I'm convinced that God must exist - both for logical reasons and because of evidence in this world - therefore my hope lies in a God who is good and powerful enough to achieve His plan.
Be well...
Quote from: Truthseeker on November 24, 2010, 09:57:50 PMIt's hard not to lose hope, it also doesn't help that Jesus' followers keep threatening everybody that doesn't think like them with ET, it's always someone else going to hell...except themselves of course
Do ETs really follow Jesus? You can't blame Jesus for people twisting His message.
A quote: "It's not God I have a problem with; it's His fanclub I can't stand." :winkgrin:
QuoteBelieve me, with the type of messages that Orthodox Christendom touts as the "good news"
TS, it's good that you spot the errors; but you still seem to believe in those errors you just spotted.
If a UR God gets labeled as an ET God, who's to blame? God or the one labeling Him?
QuoteIf Orthodox ET Christianity is right,
Is islam Christianity? They do believe in Abraham, Moses, Noach, etc. I guess all will answer no. Why not? Because muslims mixed Christianity with false teachings.
Does orthodox Christianity exist? I say no because it's the same as islam. Christianity with mixed with false teachings. (Roman, Greek Zoroasterism, etc)
If you mix white paint with to much black paint there comes a point you can no longer call it white paint.
No religion is valid, only Christ.
Quote from: legoman on November 24, 2010, 10:27:43 PM
Personally I am 100% convinced that eternal torment cannot be true. Certain life experiences have convinced me of this - like having kids. I cannot imagine that the God, who is love, created my little girl (she's 6 years old) so that she could possibly end up in a place of endless suffering. It just plain makes no sense at all.
Compared to the age of God even the 106 year old are little kids.
QuoteIts the doom & gloomers who like to say we can't understand God's logic and 'His ways are higher than our ways', implying God does the opposite of what human's think of as logic. I'm sorry but logic is what the truth is based on and Jesus is the truth.
It would also mean Jesus' ministry was a waste of time. Whatever He said couldn't be understand anyway because He spoke about the ways of God.
QuoteI'm not saying I can understand all of God, but I can certainly understand that it is not loving or justice to torture someone infinitely. I can also understand that Jesus came to defeat death so that all can live.
Exactly. It's not that hard to figure out the framework.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 24, 2010, 10:43:04 PM
Quote from: legoman on November 24, 2010, 10:27:43 PM
Personally I am 100% convinced that eternal torment cannot be true. Certain life experiences have convinced me of this - like having kids. I cannot imagine that the God, who is love, created my little girl (she's 6 years old) so that she could possibly end up in a place of endless suffering. It just plain makes no sense at all.
Compared to the age of God even the 106 year old are little kids.
Exactly. Sometimes I think we are all little kids.
Most Christians have this idea of 'age of accountability' - they say:
oh God wouldn't send a 6 year old to hell...I ask myself why is it
not good for God to send a 6-year old to hell, but it is
justice for God to send a 36-year old to hell?!? I guess the 36-year old is mature enough - he can handle it. :mshock: How about a sweet little 76-year old grandma?
And I'm not trying to say we aren't accountable. We are accountable. You stole a chocolate bar once - YOU DESERVE TO BURN IN HELL FOREVER! That's accountability?!?
Again we need to be reasonable and logical. If we say we can't use logic then we may as well not even talk about this anymore because our entire system of language and communication is based on logic. If 'love=hate' and 'justice=torture forever' then things are bound to get screwed up...
dup
We are made in the image of God - we are little expressions of God's being. We are not perfect mind you, but we aren't stupid, and God is not ludicrous.
People who say that God cannot be understood are practicing false humility, and it stinks in the nostrils of God - because God wants his children to know, to listen, to understand him, to trust him, to grow towards him, and etc.
With regards to his ways being higher - it is better explained to these sort that God sometimes does things that seem unreasonable, but then they will make sense after the end has been achieved. It probably seemed unreasonable to tell the Israelites to step into the Jordan carrying the ark - which then parted. But it was faith that understood what the brain did not at the time comprehend. None of this however, should imply that God is ludicrous, and completely irrational.
Hell is not something that "makes sense later", it can't. Its...just plain ridiculous, it doesn't have a benevolent direction like alot of what God does that is seemingly unreasonable when he asks us to step out in faith.
Quote from: Lefein on November 24, 2010, 10:36:00 PM
No religion is valid, only Christ.
Whether your background has been Islam, Hindu, Orthodox Jew, orthodox Christian, agnostic, or atheist - the crucial doctrine is "... if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9
There is no other name under heaven whereby men can be saved. Acts 4:12
Quote from: LS on November 24, 2010, 05:35:36 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 24, 2010, 07:15:23 AM
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 05:20:59 AM
Personally, I am not bright enough to reason out God. I can read scripture but will only understand if the Holy Spirit unveils my eyes. So, for me I will read the Bible set before me and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to me what he wants me to know. Everything else will have to wait until I meet God.
:thumbsup:
Even though you're not a staunch believer in UR, IMO you've raised some pertinent points in this thread Shawn.
Amen. And more than that, when false witness was borne against you, you maintained your usual honesty, humility, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control - all fruits of the good Spirit. Thank you for reflecting our Lord so well :thumbsup:
On another board, a member used to preach hell, fire & brimstone. Anyone who disagreed in any measure was accused of "calling God a liar!" That same method of reasoning was used to accuse Shawn of "not believing" certain scriptures. If someone wants to level that claim against another person, they ought to prove with a direct quote of Shawn's own words saying, "I don't believe I Cor 15:26 is true." Anything less is a lie and I find it deeply disturbing. It reveals an entirely different spirit, imho.
I appreciate your kind words LS.
Quote from: legoman on November 24, 2010, 04:14:58 PM
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 07:32:22 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 24, 2010, 06:47:25 AM
Was it not to legoman?
I would love to know what you believe legoman's point was.
I am curious though. This is a group of Christians who very much mistrust the motives, and the translational abilities of 4-5th century church leaders. So, why is it that you trust their ability to canonize scripture? Where does the mistrust end?
Well I was just a little surprised because I had never seen a scripture that said anything about "free choice". Then I realized it wasn't actually scripture.
I didn't realize it was part of the Catholic bible - I should check it out (since I even go to a Catholic church! My wife is Catholic...)
Anyway since it is not "official canon", we shouldn't really use those books as proof of anything, other than some people wrote it down like that many centuries ago... I suppose it is interesting to quote them, but it should not be treated as scripture IMHO.
Catholic canon was used very little in those quotes. Most come straight from
your Bible. With that said, my question was not addressed. If we do not trust 4th and 5th century religious leaders to translate...why do we trust them to canonize?
One time on one of my favorite shows, Andy was taken to a fancy restaurant by a woman who was ordering for them. She wanted to order escargo (sp?). Andy didn't know what it was it was, and when he found out, he didn't want to eat them. He said "I think I'll just let the snails slide on by".
So, bringing this to my point, I'd hoped that question about canonization could just "slide on by" :laughing7:.
We'll need to be careful to not get into too much textual criticism - one of those slippery slopes - get it? slippery? - that we try to avoid. :bigGrin:
I, for one, believe the Holy Bible is the inspired Word of God not written by or approved of by man.
Tentmaker may have a stance on that, perhaps one of the moderators would tell you if it is not written.
Certain persons, including myself, highly esteem the written Word of God.
Yes David, thank you, the link is in my signature at the bottom of my posts.
I don't think anyone is questioning it, or dis-esteeming there.
I do.
I believe Shawn personally respects what we have. I think he may wonder if some of the other apocryphal books may also have some merit; others have expressed the same, including quoting for example, from the books of Enoch and Judas.
I personally doubt the "absolute" inspiration of the apocryphal books; the manuscripts of the canonized ones are very consistent with each other.
HOWEVER, as I said, we probably need to let this go on past, because it's proven to be too volatile and divisive a subject.
Moving (sliding) right along.... :bigGrin:
Quote from: shawn on November 25, 2010, 12:37:20 AM
Quote from: legoman on November 24, 2010, 04:14:58 PM
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 07:32:22 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 24, 2010, 06:47:25 AM
Was it not to legoman?
I would love to know what you believe legoman's point was.
I am curious though. This is a group of Christians who very much mistrust the motives, and the translational abilities of 4-5th century church leaders. So, why is it that you trust their ability to canonize scripture? Where does the mistrust end?
Well I was just a little surprised because I had never seen a scripture that said anything about "free choice". Then I realized it wasn't actually scripture.
I didn't realize it was part of the Catholic bible - I should check it out (since I even go to a Catholic church! My wife is Catholic...)
Anyway since it is not "official canon", we shouldn't really use those books as proof of anything, other than some people wrote it down like that many centuries ago... I suppose it is interesting to quote them, but it should not be treated as scripture IMHO.
Catholic canon was used very little in those quotes. Most come straight from your Bible. With that said, my question was not addressed. If we do not trust 4th and 5th century religious leaders to translate...why do we trust them to canonize?
Shawn, you seem a little defensive, no offense was meant. I addressed the scriptures you listed about the wicked being destroyed, I'm not sure if you read it or not. Perhaps you could respond to that.
Regarding trusting 4th/5th century leaders - I don't really know what you are expecting me to say. From day one (ok since I was about 8 years old or so) I have a had an English bible (NIV). For a long time I thought it was infallible. Then I learned that the words 'eternal'/'forever'/'hell' are not translated correctly. So I have come to realize the English translation is not infallible. I do believe the text in the original language is correct (or very near correct) - things like the dead sea scrolls and other studies sort of confirm this for me. Of course the question is how it is translated. So do I trust how some bibles have been translated? Not as much as I used to.
Personally I have not studied the non-canon material very much, so I can't say one way or another what it means if anything. I was just pointing out that it was not scripture because the way it was posted mixed in with the other verses, it looked like it was all 'official' scripture. I mean you could quote somebody saying "all sinners will burn in hell and their skin will fall off and then regrow so it can be burned off again" and it doesn't mean its true. In fact I think there is something like that in the Koran, but I'm sure I don't have the quote exactly right.
From the small snippet you posted of Sirach - I don't believe that portion lines up with the rest of scripture that I've read. That's neither here nor there. JMHO.
Be well...
Yes perhaps we can let the question of canon go, I don't really understand how that whole process worked anyway, it was really just an observation from me and that's all.
To get back on topic, did you read my response to your list of verses Shawn? Here it is again:
--
I don't think anyone is denying that the wicked will be destroyed - that is what you think these verses mean right? The wicked will be destroyed - I agree, hallelujah! There won't be any wicked people in heaven - it wouldn't be much of a heaven if there were still wicked people around?
However this destruction cannot mean annihilation or eternal death, for that would contradict all the other verses that have been raised - God will have all men to be saved - all will be made alive in Christ - every knee will bow and every tongue confess and even swear allegiance to Him. etc.
So it is imperative to understand what is meant when we read the wicked are destroyed.
Consider Saul/Paul. He should be viewed as the "everyman" - the model for all conversion. First note it was God who did the converting - God is in control. Secondly why was he first called Saul - the chief of sinners who persecuted and killed many, but then when he was converted he became the great apostle Paul?
After Paul's conversion, Saul was no more - he was destroyed. The wicked Saul was destroyed by destroying the wickedness out of himself. This left only Paul.
Saul was the old carnal self, Paul was the new creation. Note that we all start with a physical name, but when we are converted we are given a new name. The old man is destroyed.
We learn that names are written in the "book of life" (which is Christ). We can be rest assured that Saul was not written in the book of life, but Paul most certainly is. And so it will be for all of us. Like I said, Saul/Paul is the "everyman" - he is the model, for God is not respecter of persons; so all will be converted in a similar manner as Paul was.
And so the wicked are truly destroyed when our carnal self is fully and completely destroyed.
Please consider this when reading the verses you posted above.
Peace out Shawn...
Not defensive. I am not Catholic, what stake do I have in Sirach? But, we do have members who are Catholic here. So, my point was if we are to invalidate scripture that some here hold as Holy Spirit inspired...we should know why we believe what we believe. I just think that is responsible. For instance, I don't believe Sirach to be inspired because...yada yada. I believe most do not consider Sirach inspired because the same guys who many here believe mistranslated the Bible...said so. If that is the case, maybe we should stay silent on certain things until we are able to defend our stances with consistency.
As for your thoughts on the verses I brought up. I think that is well thought out and a very compelling argument. I do think that to be a very reasonable possibility. It doesn't seem contrived and it does make sense to me.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 25, 2010, 12:47:03 AM
I, for one, believe the Holy Bible is the inspired Word of God not written by or approved of by man.
Tentmaker may have a stance on that, perhaps one of the moderators would tell you if it is not written.
Certain persons, including myself, highly esteem the written Word of God.
Do you really believe I am trying to invalidate the word of God? It wouldn't be the first time I have been misrepresented here. But, I am asking a very tough and direct question. The reason I do so is to build some respect and tolerance for other Christians who believe a bit differently than ourselves. If you don't believe the Catholic Bible to be entirely inspired...don't you think you should know why?
No, I don't want to know so please don't force me to know.
The whole idea is vexing.
If I may offer a peaceful position for quotes and verses such as the ones presented, like Sirach?
Let the Holy Spirit bring out what he may - God is not so finite as to be contained to a few pages of his own diary. He can bring something out of a Vedic text if he so chooses, though he did not inspire them. Now, I am not saying that he will bring something out, nor am I suggesting a free-for all.
I only wanted to offer...that we should let the Spirit speak, and not quench him, especially if a benevolent end can be obtained by quoting something that isn't between the covers of the good book. :cloud9:
It is the Spirit who inspires - not the text.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 25, 2010, 01:31:25 AM
No, I don't want to know so please don't force me to know.
The whole idea is vexing.
That is fair enough. All I ask is if that is the stance that we choose to take...then we shouldn't rush to conclusions about the Holy Spirit inspiration of the Deuterocanonicals.
And I must agree with the spirit of Lefein's post. I read through some of Sirach and it touched me where I was at. It uplifted my spirit. It strengthened me in a time when I needed strength.
Rush to conclusions????????????????????????????????
I've been searching most of my life, thank you, shawn.
(I needed to edit out some of your Q marks David. It was making my computer screen stretch like an additional 50% wide and I couldn't see posts. Now it's OK :dontknow:)
Anyway, so as to enforce your original intended effect, there was probably about another 50 '?' :)
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 25, 2010, 01:42:58 AM
Rush to conclusions????????????????????????????????
I've been searching most of my life, thank you, shawn.
(I needed to edit out some of your Q marks David. It was making my computer screen stretch like an additional 50% wide and I couldn't see posts. Now it's OK :dontknow:)
Anyway, so as to enforce your original intended effect, there was probably about another 50 '?' :)
You have been searching all your life about the inspiration of the Deuterocanonicals? I apologize if I misread the situation. What have you learned?
:cloud9: I agree with Lefein that it is the Spirit that inspires, not the text. Having said that, I also think the Bible we have as written is definitely the inspiried word of God, although there are some faulty word translations as we all know by now.
But I also think He can and has spoken in snipets here and there to those that didn't have ears to hear the One, and within reason and common sense selections, it doesn't bother me to read other works like Sirach, the Dead Sea scrolls, ect., GLEANING the inspiration of the Spirit that MIGHT be there. My :2c: Blessings...
God speaks to us in the realities we most simply understand.
A child's smile
or a distant star,
a flower that suddenly
attracts our attention
or the sound
of our name
on the lips
of those we love.
Quote from: shawn on November 25, 2010, 03:26:34 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 25, 2010, 01:42:58 AM
Rush to conclusions????????????????????????????????
I've been searching most of my life, thank you, shawn.
(I needed to edit out some of your Q marks David. It was making my computer screen stretch like an additional 50% wide and I couldn't see posts. Now it's OK :dontknow:)
Anyway, so as to enforce your original intended effect, there was probably about another 50 '?' :)
You have been searching all your life about the inspiration of the Deuterocanonicals? I apologize if I misread the situation. What have you learned?
I've learned the Truth.
:laughing7:
Just the stark reply. It's like I imagine a proffesor asking his student
"so what have you learned here in university for 7 years"
Sudent: "A lot"
Proffessor: :msealed: umm, speechless, "can't argue with that" :happygrin:
That's also the way I am in person.
My dad was in the military all my life, that could be the cause.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 25, 2010, 12:47:03 AM
I, for one, believe the Holy Bible is the inspired Word of God not written by or approved of by man.
Tentmaker may have a stance on that, perhaps one of the moderators would tell you if it is not written.
Certain persons, including myself, highly esteem the written Word of God.
Yes! Rather than a thumbs up..!
willieH: Hi Tank... :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: willieHObviously you have little experience in the dealings of LOVE... Love thinks of OTHERS, not of SELF... and GOD knowing that we are in a condition which is IN PERIL... did just THAT. Even though you cannot see it in this moment... :cloud9:
Quote from: thinktank on November 24, 2010, 06:24:05 AM
Ls don't worry about willies remarks, I believe you are sincere in love and the lord and care a great deal about people. Having knowledge that all be saved is not entirely based on love, but is something that is revealed through experience, study and time.
LS does not need to "worry"... LS needs to consider... and no one inferred that LS was not sincere... just that experience with LOVE by LS's remarks seemed absent.
Quote from: thinktank on November 24, 2010, 06:24:05 AM
willieH were you not once a non beliver in the salvation of all. So why do you make statements such as these above to fellow believer LS.
Actually, LS is able to speak for him/herself. That I was once veiled to the Salvation of all is not the point. And really, is not your business anyway. You were not spoken to...
Quote from: thinktank on November 24, 2010, 06:24:05 AM
Having knowledge of THE Salvation of ALL, YOU think YOURSELF to be BE RIGHTEOUS
Now it is you which mouths off, Tank... Criticizing my remarks to LS, then making false statements of me in your next breath!
I do not think of myself as RIGHTEOUS at all... matter of fact... I more think of myself as completely UNWORTHY of the Salvation provided by
YHVH through
JESUS CHRIST...
And your remarks to me are OUT OF LINE. :thumbdown:
Quote from: thinktank on November 24, 2010, 06:24:05 AM
and fellow believer LS unrighteous :thumbdown: when the WORD says THAT all are UNRIGHTEOUS :dontknow:
YOU are the one contending "righteousness" Tank... I didn't mention it AT ALL! :thumbdown:
Where did I say that "I was righteous, and that LS was not"? The TRUTH is that I DID NOT SAY any such thing, Tank!
Those are
your (FALSE) words... :nod:
willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: jabcat on November 25, 2010, 12:47:56 AM
Yes David, thank you, the link is in my signature at the bottom of my posts.
Yes! Again rather than a thumbs up!
Quote from: thinktank on November 23, 2010, 11:24:05 PM
Having knowledge of THE Salvation of ALL, YOU think YOURSELF to be BE RIGHTEOUS
No, my friend and brother, we think ourselves thankful and humble that Our Father has such great love that He would gather all His children, obedient and disobedient back for the feast. Luk 15:24 because this my son was dead, and did live again, and he was lost, and was found; and they began to be merry.
I love you Thinktank.
QuoteI've learned the Truth.
You've learned Jesus, excellent that's a good start.
Now, let the same Spirit who began his work having drawn you into the Spirit, continue to that work of making you perfect.
If I may be so bold, I believe Thinktank's point was that just because LS is not a Universal Reconciliationist, does not mean that she needs to be looked down upon, or scolded like she was an ignorant beast, or sinful harlot, even by implication.
:cloud9: I'm well on my way, and at such a young age too - May God be blessed through the aions for his brilliant work in me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vnei94grw8k&feature=fvw
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 25, 2010, 04:17:06 AM
Quote from: thinktank on November 23, 2010, 11:24:05 PM
Having knowledge of THE Salvation of ALL, YOU think YOURSELF to be BE RIGHTEOUS
No, my friend and brother, we think ourselves thankful and humble that Our Father has such great love that He would gather all His children, obedient and disobedient back for the feast. Luk 15:24 because this my son was dead, and did live again, and he was lost, and was found; and they began to be merry.
I love you Thinktank.
love you to micah :bigGrin:
Im not quite understanding the friction, I am the one that comes on cynical, sarcastic, and terse... I am hurt.
Annihilate.. to bring to nothing. 1) to destroy completely; put out of existance; demolish 2) to consider or cause to be of no importance or without effect; nullify 3) to kill 4) to conquer decisively; crush
All of these descriptions seem very much in line with what the Lord, Jehovah has in mind. I must confess, and am quite thankfull that He is "ANNIHILATING" me right now! I am all smiles. :grin:
2Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
NOW THE DESCRIPTION OF AN EVENT
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
THAT DAY
1)The Lord Jesus Christ will be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2)He will take vengeance on those that do not know God or believe the Gospel
3)They will be punished with aionios destruction from the presence of the Lord. [aionious separation from the face of God]
4)The Lord will be glorified in his saints
This will denote the beginning of a new Age.
11 In which thing also we pray evermore for you, that our God make you worthy to his calling, and fill all the will of his goodness [and fulfill all the will of his goodness], and the work of faith in virtue;
12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ be clarified in you, and ye in him, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [after the grace of our God, and of the Lord Jesus Christ].
--2Thess 2
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
--2 Thess 1
[who] "shall be punished"
tinō dikē
G5099
τίνω
tinō
tee'-no
Strengthened for a primary word τίω tiō (which is only used as an alternate in certain tenses); to pay a price, that is, as a penalty: - be punished with.
G1349
δίκη
dikē
dee'-kay
Probably from G1166; right (as self evident), that is, justice (the principle, a decision, or its execution): - judgment, punish, vengeance.
"with everlasting"
G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
"destruction"
G3639
ὄλεθρος
olethros
ol'-eth-ros
From ὄλλυμι ollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.
"from"
G575
ἀπό
apo
apo'
A primary particle; "off", that is, away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.
"the presence"
G4383
πρόσωπον
prosōpon
pros'-o-pon
From G4314 and ὤψ ōps (the visage; from G3700); the front (as being towards view), that is, the countenance, aspect, appearance, surface; by implication presence, person: - (outward) appearance, X before, countenance, face, fashion, (men's) person, presence.
of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.
Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2010, 02:37:17 PM
2Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
NOW THE DESCRIPTION OF AN EVENT
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
THAT DAY
1)The Lord Jesus Christ will be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2)He will take vengeance on those that do not know God or believe the Gospel
3)They will be punished with aionios destruction from the presence of the Lord. [aionious separation from the face of God]
4)The Lord will be glorified in his saints
This will denote the beginning of a new Age.
11 In which thing also we pray evermore for you, that our God make you worthy to his calling, and fill all the will of his goodness [and fulfill all the will of his goodness], and the work of faith in virtue;
12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ be clarified in you, and ye in him, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [after the grace of our God, and of the Lord Jesus Christ].
--2Thess 2
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved,
but Esau have I hated.
*********************
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory*******************************
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
I was born as an Esau, instead of a Jacob so there isn't much I can do about it anyway :sigh:
:cloud9: Esau is the carnal nature.....we were all born with an Esau to overcome. Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on November 25, 2010, 04:07:40 PM
:cloud9: Esau is the carnal nature.....we were all born with an Esau to overcome. Blessings...
:thumbsup:
Quote from: TSRom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
The Law will serve Grace--this is the prophecy.
22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman
was by promise. 24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.--Gal 4
willieH: Hi Shawn... :cloud9:
You requested that I apologize for ACCUSING you of not noting Scriptural support... I did not ACCUSE you of anything. The post I addressed was DEVOID of Scriptural support. I later indicated that it was an OVERSIGHT of mine that you had previously noted that Scriptural support... that notation (of oversight) is all you are due, and all you shall get from me... hope its enough. :winkgrin:
Now as was my intent (now that I have time to do so), ...here is my response your "Scriptural support"... in which I shall use the
WORD in making that "address"...
BTW... I will be waiting upon
YOUR ADDRESS of the list I provided... YOU in this thread, brother Shawn... :winkgrin:
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AM
Php 3:18 For many, as I have often told you and now tell you even in tears, conduct themselves as enemies of the cross of Christ.
Php 3:19 Their end is destruction.
Destruction is the WRATH of GOD, come against the UNGODLINESS
OF MEN --
Rom 1:18 -- GOD LOVES (and in His UNCHANGING way,
always will love) the
WORLD --
John 3:16 -- so any "destruction" that is manifest and necessary, in any given one... is for that ones own good --
1 Cor 3:15 -- and is the course of that ones, SALVATION experience... which is the WORK of GOD who works ALL THINGS --
Eph 1:11 -- to (lovingly) DELETE that which is unacceptable in each one --
Heb 12:29 -- a FIRE which we are AMIDST at present --
Acts 17:28Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AM2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.
The "saints" of God are only "saints" because GOD has
authored FAITH in them (as well as
FINISHES it in them) --
Heb 12:2 -- God does not have RESPECT of persons... so ALL men shall bow at the knee (in worship) and confess with the tongue (in acknowledgement) of
JESUS CHRIST --
Phil 2:10-11 -- Rom 14:11 -- Isaiah 45:23 -- which CONFESSION (unto Salvation --
Rom 10:13) -- can only be done by the POWER of the Holy Spirit in them --
1 Cor 12:3 -- the very same "confession" that YOU percieve that YOU have done, in becoming within the FAITH
of JESUS CHRIST which has been authored in YOU... not of yourself, so that of course you already know (or should know) ...that you may NOT
BOAST of it --
Eph 2:9The "
destruction" that takes place in these others you observe, ...will be done in the very same manner as you percieve it was "done" in you... Only difference, yours was "done" in the privacy of your heart... dispensing your shame privately... However, the shame which is to come for MANY, ...is NOT PRIVATE and that SHAME shall APPEAR in those UNCLOTHED in
CHRIST --
Rev 3:18 -- the result of the dispensing of that "shame" is that SAME as it was in YOU... or I... for WE are due NO GLORY whatsoever, all GLORY is due the SAVIOR and His Father...
Also the "destruction" which occurs in them (and has hopefully already occured in you) is ETERNAL, for as it shall not appear in YOU as you "RE-ENTER" the ETERNAL, ...as well, it shall not appear in the ETERNAL setting in them either... being DESTROYED, by the conclusion of the LAST DAY --
1 Cor 3:11-15Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AM2Pe 2:12 But these people, like irrational animals born by nature for capture and destruction, revile things that they do not understand, and in their destruction they will also be destroyed,
2Pe 2:13 suffering wrong as payment for wrongdoing
FIRST --- GOD shall not bring harm
to those who do NOT "UNDERSTAND"... He shall in JUDGMENT of that lack of "UNDERSTANDING" (which brought forth acts of EVIL and WICKEDNESS)... Manifest the "UNDERSTANDING" of
RIGHTEOUSNESS" which is EMBODIED in the
FAITH of JESUS CHRIST --
Gal 2:20 -- Rom 6:6-11 -- Gal 6:14 -- Col 3:1-3 -- which had NO RESPECT of PERSONS --
Acts 10:34 -- Prov 28:21 (& 8 others) -- and is a FAITH which is
NOT your own (for such is
VANITY), ...rather is
CHRIST which has authored HIMSELF in you. :dontknow:
Before this "understanding" of RIGHTEOUSNESS (FAITH of
JESUS CHRIST) was introduced by His authoring of HIMSELF in YOU, ..."YOU WERE", as you percieve THEY ARE"...
SECOND --- Because you percieve that "WRONGDOING" which YOU have done... was forgiven in the GLORY of the Salvation of
CHRIST who died for YOU, ...and which you also percieve said forgiveness, has been GIVEN to you... it shall be given to them as well...
ALL WRONGDOING, is "destroyed" and replaced with the "RIGHTDOINGS" of
CHRIST... and the
PEACE which the Blood of His Cross has provided --
Col 1:20 -- restoring ALL THINGS (not just "some" things, ..."you" for instance, and not "OTHERS")... :dontknow:
The SHEEP do not SAVE themselves, nor do THEY "correct" ANYTHING in themselves (that which is "WRONG", in themselves). The
WORD is given for CORRECTION --
2 Tim 3:16 -- John 8:32 -- and it is the
WORD which "corrects" wrong, and restores it to CORRECTNESS, ...FREEING it from the bondage of SIN and the FLESH of death... :dontknow:
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMHeb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
Those who are endeavoring to minister
CHRIST cannot resort to SIN, and minister
CHRIST... That is a contradiction in terms... How can EVIL minister GOOD?
Those who "have FAITH, do not "have FAITH" of themselves... the FAITH that preserves their souls is NOT of themselves... it is the work of GOD via
CHRIST that produces such "preservation"... those who have been CHOSEN to minister, did not "choose themselves" --
John 15:16 -- on the contrary... said FAITH was ORDAINED to be so --
Eph 2:10 -- the "building" (house) of GOD... not of beings which are SINFUL and UNBELIVING by nature. Overesteeming themselves, ...The HOUSE of GOD, is that which is "Built" not by the hand of MAN... but by
YHVH GOD. :dontknow:
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMAct 13:40 "Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:
Act 13:41 'BEHOLD, YOU SCOFFERS, AND MARVEL, AND PERISH;
FOR I AM ACCOMPLISHING A WORK IN YOUR DAYS,
A WORK WHICH YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE, THOUGH SOMEONE SHOULD DESCRIBE IT TO YOU.'"
Don't know where this was gleaned from (what version), but the word
NEVER is not in the original language...
Which word is the english word, ..."Never"... translated from, Shawn?
Acts 13:40-41 -- Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of the prophets; ...behold ye DESPISERS, and wonder, and perish; for I work a work in your days, A WORK WHICH YE SHALL IN NO WISE BELIEVE THOUGH A MAN DECLARE IT UNTO YOU...
Even though the (perfect and GLORIFIED) Salvation of ALL MEN is given unto you... MOD EDIT... and though it has been DECLARED unto you here at TENTMAKER, ...that "WORK" goes on in you, ...MOD EDIT
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMEze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: die. the soul that sinneth, it shall die
What "soul" has not sinned, Shawn? And what "soul" shall NOT DIE because of said involvement in SIN? --
Heb 9:27Shall you not DIE, Shawn? :dontknow: If you have SINNED... then in the
DAY you did... you
DIED... just as did ADAM --
Gen 2:17 -- and you shall DIE the 2nd death as well... for YOUR physical body is on its way to the grave as we speak... :nod:
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMSir 15:14 When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice.
Sir 15:15 If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will.
Sir 15:16 There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand.
Sir 15:17 Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.
2Ma 7:14 When he was near death, he said, "It is my choice to die at the hands of men with the God-given hope of being restored to life by him; but for you, there will be no resurrection to life."
This portion is
not "Scripture" so it shall therefore be ignored by me, in this address of
Scripture... :cloud9:
I will stop here and continue in PART TWO...
willieH :cloud9:
willieH: More...
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMPsalms 37:10 "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall be no more."
All men are WICKED... :dontknow: There are
NONE "RIGHTEOUS", ...no shawn, NOT ONE! --
Rom 3:10-12 -- Psalm 14:1-3Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMPsa 5:6 You destroy those who speak falsehood;
The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.
Better make sure this isn't speaking about YOU and the "ET or ED" that YOU endorse. :dontknow:
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMPsalms 37:20 "The enemies of the Lord, like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish, into smoke they shall vanish away."
The "enemies" of
YHVH are the UNGODLINESSES and UNRIGHTEOUSNESSES ...OF... Man --
Rom 1:18 -- GOD loves the Human race... and will ALWAYS love it...
Mal 3:6 -- John 3:16Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AM
Psalms 37:38 "But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the future of the wicked shall be cut off."
ALL have SINNED Shawn (including you), ...and come short of the Glory of God --
Rom 3:23 -- it is TRANSGRESSIONS of men which GOD shall destroy... the MEN shall be saved even so BY FIRE --
1 Cor 3:15Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMPsa 73:27 But those who are far from you perish; you destroy those unfaithful to you.
The "eye for eye" thing is over, Shawn... get used to it... We are to pray, bless and love our enemies... for if we are indeed within and PART of the
GRACE which is
JESUS CHRIST... then we JOIN HIM in the NON-CONDEMNATION for which He was SENT --
John 3:17 -- Matt 5:44-48Matt 5:48 -- Be ye THEREFORE PERFECT, even as your Father in Heaven is PERFECT -- How? Forgiving enemies, praying for those that HATE, DESPISE, USE and CURSE you Shawn...
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMPsalms 145:20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
Yes... He will destroy the "wicked" IN men... not the men... He is about SAVING men, NOT destroying them. He is about destroying that which, WITHIN MEN, ...DESTROYS MEN.
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMIsaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
That which GOD consumes is EVIL... within the FIRE that is THIS LIFE. That which you, I or anyone does outside of
CHRIST is destroyed... but the life which HE GAVE, is preserved IN HIM. --
1 Cor 15:22 -- 1 Cor 3:15 -- It is the SIN which is destoyed Shawn...
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMPsalm 9:5-6
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
Endless ruin has overtaken the enemy,
you have uprooted their cities;
even the memory of them has perished.
EDIT - This verse is speaking of the WORK of GOD, that is about BLOTTING OUT Evil, ...and OVERTAKING that "enemy", ...and UPROOTING the cities in which it is DONE, ...and REMOVING the memory of the deeds they have done... :dontknow:
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMPsalms 92: 7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
The Harlot system has taught you well, brother Shawn... and unfortunately you have not discovered that it is THEY which are amidst the deception of NOT LOVING the TRUTH, rather OPPOSING it for FEW there be that FIND it, and even FEWER which preach it...
The "System", ...being MANY --
Matt 7:22-23 -- coming in His Name... preaching LIES to the WORLD (via the LYING THREATS of "eternal HELL" or "ED"), ...seeking to teach others to FEAR LOVE, which on the CONTRARY --
1 John 4:8 -- is all the about CASTING
OUT of FEAR, not the gathering of FEAR within the heart! --
1 John 4:18Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMProverbs 10:29 The way of the Lord is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
Yes... as I have already noted... that "destruction" IS taking place in those who truly "BELIEVE"... and yet to come IN those who "believe" in themselves and their own "righteous works" (such as
their decision for
CHRIST as "their Savior"), or those that do not "BELIEVE" at all...
BELIEVERS are known as the ones who "come in the name" and unfortunately, ...
MANY "BELIEVERS" (for they have called
JESUS "Lord" which can only be done by the Holy Spirit --
1 Cor 12:3) ...shall hear
CHRIST say:
"depart from Me, ye which work INIQUITY"... better make sure you are believing the right things, brother Shawn. :sigh:
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMProverbs 13:13 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.
Anyone can list verses... Maybe it is time to be honest...
How many of these that you have listed in this post, were found OF YOURSELF and your personal studies of GOD and His
WORD, Shawn? If you recieve information from others, and do not seek the meanings of them by PERSONALLY and PRAYERFULLY comparing that information to what IS WRITTEN, ...then the FAITH you claim to have has been handed to you, not born of YOUR OWN PURSUIT (seeking) of God and His
WORD.
Only YOU know, ...but the more you list, the more I wonder about the amount of it that YOU have actually discovered for yourself, and the amount of it that has been given to you and you have readily adopted as your own belief, without pursuing the meanings in these texts YOURSELF. :sigh:
We are rewarded for the respect of
YHVH's mandate of SOWING and REAPING... and in abusing that mandate... do the inhabitants of Earth, find DESTRUCTION... just take a look around you Shawn...
AIDS, CANCER, WAR, Drug Addictions, Sexual perversions, and much more, ...all running amuck, AND GROWING!! ...the marks of the SOWING of Evil is everywhere and in everyone. Do you have SIN, Shawn? If you say you DO NOT, then read this:
1 John 1:8Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMPsalms 101:8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the Lord.
Yes... as every KNEE shall bow to RIGHTEOUSNESS and CONFESS
JESUS as Lord --
Phil 2:10-11 -- shall this be done.
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMPsalms 21:10 Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.
EDIT - The "fruits of evil" SHALL cease, Shawn! In
ALL MEN... for
ALL MEN are as much
IN CHRIST (life/righteousness) --- as they are IN ADAM (death/evil) -- read it Shawn:
1 Cor 15:22 ---
As ...IN
ADAM, all
DIE... so ...IN
CHRIST, shall all [same "
all", Shawn] be MADE
ALIVE Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMPsalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more.
Again... once ALL have bowed at the knee and confessed with the tongue... "sinners" will have been COMPLETELY ELIMINATED! :boogie:
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMObadiah 1:16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
CORRECT! They shall
BE (which is in the GRACE and "righteousness" of GOD --
Isaiah 26:9) -- as though they have NOT BEEN -- ("all have SINNED and come short of the Glory of GOD --
Rom 3:23)
Think about it... how can something --- "BE" --- and not "BE" -- THAT is nuts. How can something BE as though it has NOT BEEN... If it has NOT BEEN, than it can no longer be considered as "
being"
That which is MADE by GOD, is ETERNAL. ALL THINGS were MADE by the
WORD... therefore they are PART OF IT... No part of the
WORD of GOD can EVER... "NOT
BE"...
Otherwise the
WORD becomes a changing entity which will note SCRIPTURE to be FALSE --
Heb 13:8 -- Mal 3:6 -- James 1:17 -- If
CHRIST is the essence of ALL THINGS, and
ALL THINGS came from Him and ALL things CONSIST of Him, and ALL things are FOR Him (regardless of those "things" being -- information, premises, varying forms of power, living beings, etc.) --
Col 1:16 -- John 1:3 -- how can ANY "THING" cease to "
BE" which EMERGED FROM HIM who NEVER changes and ALWAYS ...IS...?
Here it is in a nutshell MOD EDIT Shawn... The KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is a LIVING KNOWLEDGE for it emerges from and originates IN
YHVH who is LIVING in
every capacity that HE
IS... and therefore it shall ALWAYS "BE"...
That the knowledge of EVIL is NOT PRACTICED in ETERNITY, but does not eliminate that KNOWLEDGE from "BEING"... for crying out loud, it is the
PURPOSE of
YHVH to reveal it to man... and thereby BE "ALL in ALL"... For part of HIS KNOWLEDGE contains GOOD and EVIL... :dontknow:
If we had no revelation of GOOD and EVIL... then we would NOT be "made" in the IMAGE of GOD, which KNOWS both... and contains COMPLETE information of BOTH... and PART of the
WORD and the Heart of
YHVH would remain UNREVEALED and He could therefore NOT ever be considered "ALL in ALL"... for SOME of Him, is not revealed.
Because one has the knowledge of MURDER, does not mean because one abstains from manifesting MURDER, that the understanding, premise or power of MURDER is not present with one... nor does it mean that MURDER as a power and/or knowledge, ceases to "be" because it is no longer practiced or manifest.
GOD is able to do ANYTHING, and there is NO ONE to impede Him in any way... however... That He is ABLE to do anything... does not mean that He shall DO ANYTHING... He of Himself is the EMBODIEMENT of truth and LOVE... that which is encased within LOVE and TRUTH... does not "murder" just because one... is "able"... eh? :dontknow:
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMPsalms 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
Actually when you remove
INSERTED words... this verse reads significantly differently:
For yet a little while, and the wicked not; yea thou shall diligently consider [his/"its] place, and it not :dontknow:
This does not refer to men... but the wickedness they practice. Also it is pertinent that pronouns are often offerings that are NOT depicted specifically (as they appear in translated text) except at the descretion of the one translating.
For instance, ...the word
AUTOS in the Greek can represent he, she, it, and all variations of these. That a given sentence contains "HE" instead of "IT" as translated by men... does not mean the translation is accurate. At times it may be found valid, at others it may not. REASON must be enjoined to the premises of the
WORD in order for that validity to be TRUTH.
I am not a Hebrew or Greek scholar, but in any case... the honorable attempts made by translating scholars, at KNOWING exactly what ANCIENTS actually were saying is VERY MUCH a DIRE predicament, as someone 2K-4K years from now trying to decipher what "GAY" actually meant in the 20th century in a given phrase!
In the '40's"
GAY meant
HAPPY, and in the "80's"
GAY meant
HOMOSEXUAL and in the "90's"
GAY came to mean
LAME... :dontknow: Someone in the distant FUTURE, reading a 20th century writing might find quite a dilemma as to the actual meanings of English words of today, which are commonly applied in various scenarios within a given writing. :dontknow:
There are quite likely existent writings today, which note a person or persons to be "GAY" in several instances, using it in these varying capacities... and the "future reader" will (as with the Greek pronoun
AUTOS)... have to make a "guess" as to which meaning of "GAY" was intended in a given phrase... get my drift? :dunno:
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AM36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
?
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMPsa 37:38 But transgressors will be altogether destroyed; The posterity of the wicked will be cut off.
Once GOD redeems the entire human race... that which was WICKED in any... is "cut off"... no longer, ..."is"... :nod:
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMProverbs 6:12-15
12 A scoundrel and villain,
who goes about with a corrupt mouth,
13 who winks with his eye,
signals with his feet
and motions with his fingers,
14 who plots evil with deceit in his heart—
he always stirs up dissension.
15 Therefore disaster will overtake him in an instant;
he will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy.
This encompasses ALL SELFISH, EVIL practicing human beings... which EVIL is DESTROYED with the revelation of RIGHTEOUSNESS... When you and I eventually become FRIENDS in the Eternal realm... the back & forths we have experienced here will seem pretty doggone petty... The FREINDSHIP "destroying" the negativities in all their varieties. :nod:
The GRACE and PERFECTION of LOVE, ...destroys HATRED and INDIFFERENCE by the PERMEATING presence of ITSELF.
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMPsa 28:5 They pay no heed to the LORD'S works, to the deeds of God's hands. God will tear them down, never to be rebuilt.
Reading the entirety of the setting/context of this text...
When you discovered the revelation of who and what YOU are, as compared to
CHRIST, did you not cry out like this, Shawn?
What man is disassociated with this description, Shawn? Before you BELIEVED... did you do anything contrary to the laws of GOD? Or to the deeds of "His hands"? Were YOU living a life which might be seen as unblameable?
Before you HEARD God... was His voice SILENT unto you?
And... for goodness, sake! to say this world/scenario and its doings will NEVER BE REBUILT is a no-brainer! Who would want to come back to this mess? :omg:
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMRev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.)
Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.
So glad you listed this particular set of Scriptures... it is of my favorites... THIS is the Lake of FIRE that we are IN NOW... Death and the Grave (hades) are definitely PART of THIS scenario... and Whoever did not at ANY MOMENT, "BELIEVE" was not written in the Book of LIFE... for DEATH was appointed to him/her... ALL are CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF --
Rom 11:32Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMRev 21:8 But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
The word (your version above) uses as "UNFAITHFUL", is "UNBELIEVING" (which is actually quite decieving, inferring that one is an unfaithful betrayer, which is NOT really the meaning of this word)...
That said, even being ANGRY with a brother is a form of MURDER, and whoever has had a girlfriend, boyfriend, favorite singer, etc... has "idolized"... Or those who have looked upon another in lust (which is everyone that is honest), is also a qualified candidate for the LOF...
And what of being FEARFUL (for the word in the Greek does not mean "coward")? Do you not TEACH others to "DREAD" the Almighty? :rolleye:
You teach them YOUR own position, do you not? Presenting them HELL/ET or ANNHILATION/ED... which are RIDDEN and PERMEATED with FEAR! And then you suppose yourself not involved with FEAR or DREAD? :mshock:
Actually this verse describes the guilty and WICKED perspective of the HEARTS OF ALL MEN which are DESPARATELY wicked ABOVE ALL THINGS! --
Jer 17:9 -- before
YHVH God's
WORD changes them, and FREE's them from FEAR! --
1 John 4:18 There is not ONE CATEGORY that YOU (as a member of ADAM), can escape in the account of your own life... and neither can I... :mnah: Neither should we seek to avoid this! It is the PURPOSE of GOD to involve us... MAKING BOTH the vessel of DISHONOR as well as HONOR --
Rom 9:21Think about it... Now I will wait upon your explanation of the texts that I have supplied for you to "address"... Which SCRIPTURALLY support the
GOSPEL of PEACE --
Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- not FEAR... :happygrin:
willieH :cloud9:
How interesting (but sadly not surprising) that your observations rarely look
at the actual passage - its context and meaning, nor the words used to translate them - to show that they honestly might mean something other than what I apparently see in them, or Shawn sees in them.
Instead, you begin with the belief that US is true and use other verses + williH reasoning to try to claim that they can't mean what they (appear to me) to say.
And that's only a few of the verses ... for others, you don't even remotely talk about the verse itself, but instead insult Shawn :mshock: This is only one example:
Quote from: willieH on November 26, 2010, 06:37:56 AM
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMPsalms 92: 7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
The Harlot system has taught you well, brother Shawn... and unfortunately you have not discovered that it is THEY which are amidst the deception of NOT LOVING the TRUTH, rather OPPOSING it for FEW there be that FIND it, and even FEWER which preach it...
The "System", ...being MANY -- Matt 7:22-23 -- coming in His Name... preaching LIES to the WORLD (via the LYING THREATS of "eternal HELL" or "ED"), ...seeking to teach others to FEAR LOVE, which on the CONTRARY -- 1 John 4:8 -- is all the about CASTING OUT of FEAR, not the gathering of FEAR within the heart! -- 1 John 4:18
I just want to make the observation that Shawn isn't quarrelsome - I don't think I've ever seen him argue over meanings with others. I've only seen him explain what he sees, why he sees it, and I think he has asked many questions and has had some great conversations with people who are willing to discuss US with him in a meaningful way. I've learned a lot by reading their thoughtful conversations with Shawn, and I've appreciated it very much.
I find it hard to read posts that are insulting and quarrelsome so I don't expect to return to this thread, but I hope Shawn doesn't feel like your tone & insults are a reflection on him. I think we can all be mindful of this passage: "A slave of the Lord should not quarrel, but should be gentle with everyone, able to teach, tolerant, correcting opponents with kindness." :thumbsup:
Hi LS,
:dontknow:
I don't really see willieh insulting Shawn in the part you posted, nor in the his post in full. Granted willieh is a blunt in what he writes, but he presents his position clearly and truthfully with logic and reason. What is the insult willie has cast at Shawn?
To summarize, the main point is this.
Shawn has posted a bunch of verses saying the wicked are destroyed, transgressors are destroyed, unrighteous are destroyed, those who despise the word are destroyed, etc. Thus concludes that the wicked will be eternally dead.
But now we need to examine ourselves truthfully. Who among us has not been wicked, has not transgressed, has not been unrighteous, has not despised the word? Be honest here. WE ALL HAVE DONE THESE THINGS. WE ALL STILL DO THESE THINGS TO A POINT.
So are you willing to admit according to your own doctrinal beliefs that YOU YOURSELF WILL BE DESTROYED and either go to eternal death or eternal hell? Because that is the doctrine you are preaching.
Take no insult or offense at this prospect, but that is the logical conclusion from your own argument.
This is part of the issue of what the Harlot system teaches (that willieh referred to) - condemning others while excusing itself.
Quote from: shawn on November 25, 2010, 01:22:35 AM
As for your thoughts on the verses I brought up. I think that is well thought out and a very compelling argument. I do think that to be a very reasonable possibility. It doesn't seem contrived and it does make sense to me.
So just curious if that has changed your mind on anything? Essentially I see 2 options:
1. Assume the wicked are eternally destroyed (which might include yourself) and try to excuse the verses that say God will have all men to be saved.
2. Realize that the wicked are destroyed when the wickedness is removed from them, thus harmonizing with the verses that say God will have all men to be saved.
Only one of these options takes into account all of scripture IMHO.
Quote from: legoman on November 26, 2010, 06:08:56 PM
Hi LS,
:dontknow:
I don't really see willieh insulting Shawn in the part you posted, nor in the his post in full. Granted willieh is a blunt in what he writes, but he presents his position clearly and truthfully with logic and reason. What is the insult willie has cast at Shawn?
To summarize, the main point is this.
Shawn has posted a bunch of verses saying the wicked are destroyed, transgressors are destroyed, unrighteous are destroyed, those who despise the word are destroyed, etc. Thus concludes that the wicked will be eternally dead.
But now we need to examine ourselves truthfully. Who among us has not been wicked, has not transgressed, has not been unrighteous, has not despised the word? Be honest here. WE ALL HAVE DONE THESE THINGS. WE ALL STILL DO THESE THINGS TO A POINT.
So are you willing to admit according to your own doctrinal beliefs that YOU YOURSELF WILL BE DESTROYED and either go to eternal death or eternal hell? Because that is the doctrine you are preaching.
Take no insult or offense at this prospect, but that is the logical conclusion from your own argument.
This is part of the issue of what the Harlot system teaches (that willieh referred to) - condemning others while excusing itself.
First, I rarely read or respond to Willie's posts. His style isn't for everyone and I would be part of that crowd. I'm glad that his posts bless someone. I wouldn't know if he insulted me because I don't read them.
Second, who said I am an ED guy? In post after post on this forum I have said, I don't believe in eternal torture but don't know between ED and US. What I do know is everytime I make points from scripture supporting ED I have a group of members who are as you put it "blunt". They obviously don't care for any opinion outside of what they believe. I find that unfortunate. I know many members have been offended by the same these same members who don't appear to care about anyones feelings but their own.
Now, onto your point. Yes, we have all fallen short, we have all sinned but clearly by scripture those who believe in the name of Jesus are forgiven and saved. There is no condemnation for the believer as we are covered by the blood of Christ.
And honestly, I don't appreciate your tone as well. I am not "preaching" anything. I am making points from scripture and was hoping to read some calm well thought out responses to the verses LS brought up. I guess that was expecting too much. I am searching...I don't claim to have the answers.
I am starting to let this bother me...so I believe it's time for me to take a nice long break from these boards.
Quote from: LS on November 26, 2010, 05:10:30 PM
How interesting (but sadly not surprising) that your observations rarely look at the actual passage - its context and meaning, nor the words used to translate them - to show that they honestly might mean something other than what I apparently see in them, or Shawn sees in them.
Instead, you begin with the belief that US is true and use other verses + williH reasoning to try to claim that they can't mean what they (appear to me) to say.
And that's only a few of the verses ... for others, you don't even remotely talk about the verse itself, but instead insult Shawn :mshock: This is only one example:
Quote from: willieH on November 26, 2010, 06:37:56 AM
Quote from: shawn on November 24, 2010, 03:49:31 AMPsalms 92: 7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
The Harlot system has taught you well, brother Shawn... and unfortunately you have not discovered that it is THEY which are amidst the deception of NOT LOVING the TRUTH, rather OPPOSING it for FEW there be that FIND it, and even FEWER which preach it...
The "System", ...being MANY -- Matt 7:22-23 -- coming in His Name... preaching LIES to the WORLD (via the LYING THREATS of "eternal HELL" or "ED"), ...seeking to teach others to FEAR LOVE, which on the CONTRARY -- 1 John 4:8 -- is all the about CASTING OUT of FEAR, not the gathering of FEAR within the heart! -- 1 John 4:18
I just want to make the observation that Shawn isn't quarrelsome - I don't think I've ever seen him argue over meanings with others. I've only seen him explain what he sees, why he sees it, and I think he has asked many questions and has had some great conversations with people who are willing to discuss US with him in a meaningful way. I've learned a lot by reading their thoughtful conversations with Shawn, and I've appreciated it very much.
I find it hard to read posts that are insulting and quarrelsome so I don't expect to return to this thread, but I hope Shawn doesn't feel like your tone & insults are a reflection on him. I think we can all be mindful of this passage: "A slave of the Lord should not quarrel, but should be gentle with everyone, able to teach, tolerant, correcting opponents with kindness." :thumbsup:
But yet we are just products of the "harlot system". Nah nothing offensive about that eh. [MOD EDIT]Anyways, I know who I am in Christ and thankfully do not need Willie's approval. Not sure why I even let him bother me today. I wouldn't have even read it except you quoted it. And I do read all of your posts. :)
I appreciate your kind words. I do try not to be quarrelsome. I do work on my approach to debate and have had to apologize a time or two for getting too emotionally charged. So now, when I feel that coming on I just back off for awhile. It's probably time for a little vacation from this place.
Quote from: shawn on November 26, 2010, 06:57:02 PM
Quote from: legoman on November 26, 2010, 06:08:56 PM
Hi LS,
:dontknow:
I don't really see willieh insulting Shawn in the part you posted, nor in the his post in full. Granted willieh is a blunt in what he writes, but he presents his position clearly and truthfully with logic and reason. What is the insult willie has cast at Shawn?
To summarize, the main point is this.
Shawn has posted a bunch of verses saying the wicked are destroyed, transgressors are destroyed, unrighteous are destroyed, those who despise the word are destroyed, etc. Thus concludes that the wicked will be eternally dead.
But now we need to examine ourselves truthfully. Who among us has not been wicked, has not transgressed, has not been unrighteous, has not despised the word? Be honest here. WE ALL HAVE DONE THESE THINGS. WE ALL STILL DO THESE THINGS TO A POINT.
So are you willing to admit according to your own doctrinal beliefs that YOU YOURSELF WILL BE DESTROYED and either go to eternal death or eternal hell? Because that is the doctrine you are preaching.
Take no insult or offense at this prospect, but that is the logical conclusion from your own argument.
This is part of the issue of what the Harlot system teaches (that willieh referred to) - condemning others while excusing itself.
First, I rarely read or respond to Willie's posts. His style isn't for everyone and I would be part of that crowd. I'm glad that his posts bless someone. I wouldn't know if he insulted me because I don't read them.
Second, who said I am an ED guy? In post after post on this forum I have said, I don't believe in eternal torture but don't know between ED and US. What I do know is everytime I make points from scripture supporting ED I have a group of members who are as you put it "blunt". They obviously don't care for any opinion outside of what they believe. I find that unfortunate. I know many members have been offended by the same these same members who don't appear to care about anyones feelings but their own.
Now, onto your point. Yes, we have all fallen short, we have all sinned but clearly by scripture those who believe in the name of Jesus are forgiven and saved. There is no condemnation for the believer as we are covered by the blood of Christ.
Simple question:
So why does Christ's blood cover you but not whole world? Were you not once an unbeliever? Is it not possible that all mankind will come to believe?
Quote
And honestly, I don't appreciate your tone as well. I am not "preaching" anything. I am making points from scripture and was hoping to read some calm well thought out responses to the verses LS brought up. I guess that was expecting too much. I am searching...I don't claim to have the answers.
I am starting to let this bother me...so I believe it's time for me to take a nice long break from these boards.
Don't let it bother you... just take it for what it is. Perhaps you have misread my "tone", because I didn't even realize I had one. And I thought there was plenty of calm well though out responses to the verses - did I miss a verse?
If you are unsure between ED and US, keep searching. It just seemed to me you were presenting ED/annihilation. If all you are saying is "Gee guys, there seems to be these verses that promote annihilation, I don't understand - what do we do with them?" then that is fine - I know for myself I understand how they fit with universal salvation, as I explained.
Hope that made sense, no offense intended. I guess at a certain point you have to realize the possibility (at least I have for myself) that universal salvation can harmonize every verse in the bible. If you have more verses you are unsure of, post'em.
Just some observations, that I feel the need to express; And Shawn, please correct me if I am wrong, or affirm were I am right regarding you if you are willing. ^_^
Shawn I don't believe is trying to tear down the doctrine (teaching drawn from the scriptures) of Universal Reconciliation. If I may be bold, and this forum knows I am bold as brass - I think Shawn is playing the advocate for LS, a fellow sister (UR, or not - it does not matter one wit) who has been nearly surrounded on all sides here.
[MOD EDIT]
I understand that it is difficult on a forum not to surround, especially considering the nature of the problem, and I cannot speak for Shawn as he himself can, but it is my hope to see that neither Shawn, nor LS are mistreated - even unknowingly, and there has been mistreatment perceived enough to be mistreatment. If there were none; LS would not have posted talking about insults, and she would not have felt like she has put her foot in the hornet's nest (as seen from my very own prayer thread).
We are supposed to present the truth in Love, not with raised up stringers at the feet of our beloved brethren who have not shown themselves to be violent members needing correction. We are not serpents, and scorpions, so I think we can put away our venom, and stingers, and fangs...I would hope we would, and I'd hope we would not act like we are - unless we want the body of Christ to crush us beneath his heel - and I say this, even those in the Harlot System are true, yes True Christians, despite their doctrines - whether they be annihiliation, eternal damnation, or otherwise - so long as they are indeed making progress with the Father to be his children, showing fruit - not leaves.
[MOD EDIT]
That said; I support LS's observation, especially that of Shawn not being quarrelsome, I saw only a glimpse of the before - but the after has been interesting, peaceful, and a strange sort of good change.
Suffice to say; he is not a child of the harlot system, and it is not fair to call him one. [MOD EDIT]
There are better ways to be blunt, and better targets to be blunt towards before turning the club to others - the self, is an excellent target first. I find that when I've beaten myself sufficiently with my own weapon...I feel less inclined to want to beat someone else with it, and not saying I am perfect and never do, only that I am not so eager to wail on someone with something I know very well hurts.
We must remember with the scriptures; Scriptures are not roots (my :2c:) they are stems that grow up from roots deep within, that themselves grow up from seeds planted by various sources. Some are from God, others are from traditions of angels, devils, or men, others are from our own selves. None of us is a perfect field.
__ __ __
Now, that having been said;
LS, I would like to try a different approach with you if you are willing. Tell me about your beliefs, share with me what you offer, and I will share what I can offer. The basic, civilised exchange of ideas - Let us reason together, and converse. :)
Firstly, tell me about Annihilationism. :cloud9:
Quote from: legoman on November 26, 2010, 07:14:19 PM
Quote from: shawn on November 26, 2010, 06:57:02 PM
Quote from: legoman on November 26, 2010, 06:08:56 PM
Hi LS,
:dontknow:
I don't really see willieh insulting Shawn in the part you posted, nor in the his post in full. Granted willieh is a blunt in what he writes, but he presents his position clearly and truthfully with logic and reason. What is the insult willie has cast at Shawn?
To summarize, the main point is this.
Shawn has posted a bunch of verses saying the wicked are destroyed, transgressors are destroyed, unrighteous are destroyed, those who despise the word are destroyed, etc. Thus concludes that the wicked will be eternally dead.
But now we need to examine ourselves truthfully. Who among us has not been wicked, has not transgressed, has not been unrighteous, has not despised the word? Be honest here. WE ALL HAVE DONE THESE THINGS. WE ALL STILL DO THESE THINGS TO A POINT.
So are you willing to admit according to your own doctrinal beliefs that YOU YOURSELF WILL BE DESTROYED and either go to eternal death or eternal hell? Because that is the doctrine you are preaching.
Take no insult or offense at this prospect, but that is the logical conclusion from your own argument.
This is part of the issue of what the Harlot system teaches (that willieh referred to) - condemning others while excusing itself.
First, I rarely read or respond to Willie's posts. His style isn't for everyone and I would be part of that crowd. I'm glad that his posts bless someone. I wouldn't know if he insulted me because I don't read them.
Second, who said I am an ED guy? In post after post on this forum I have said, I don't believe in eternal torture but don't know between ED and US. What I do know is everytime I make points from scripture supporting ED I have a group of members who are as you put it "blunt". They obviously don't care for any opinion outside of what they believe. I find that unfortunate. I know many members have been offended by the same these same members who don't appear to care about anyones feelings but their own.
Now, onto your point. Yes, we have all fallen short, we have all sinned but clearly by scripture those who believe in the name of Jesus are forgiven and saved. There is no condemnation for the believer as we are covered by the blood of Christ.
Simple question:
So why does Christ's blood cover you but not whole world? Were you not once an unbeliever? Is it not possible that all mankind will come to believe?
Quote
And honestly, I don't appreciate your tone as well. I am not "preaching" anything. I am making points from scripture and was hoping to read some calm well thought out responses to the verses LS brought up. I guess that was expecting too much. I am searching...I don't claim to have the answers.
I am starting to let this bother me...so I believe it's time for me to take a nice long break from these boards.
Don't let it bother you... just take it for what it is. Perhaps you have misread my "tone", because I didn't even realize I had one. And I thought there was plenty of calm well though out responses to the verses - did I miss a verse?
If you are unsure between ED and US, keep searching. It just seemed to me you were presenting ED/annihilation. If all you are saying is "Gee guys, there seems to be these verses that promote annihilation, I don't understand - what do we do with them?" then that is fine - I know for myself I understand how they fit with universal salvation, as I explained.
Hope that made sense, no offense intended. I guess at a certain point you have to realize the possibility (at least I have for myself) that universal salvation can harmonize every verse in the bible. If you have more verses you are unsure of, post'em.
Amen
:sigh: As a reminder to all......
For these one warning may be given and then if repeated, you will be banned without further explanation. The ban may be of time duration but rather expect it to be permanent.
1. Trolling.
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5. Public criticism of moderation decisions.
6. Starting a new thread of a similar topic as one that is recently locked.
7. Outright "trashing" of the scriptures - "they are untrue", "X writer of scripture was an imposter, not inspired", etc.
8. Initiating or engaging in a debate on the "free will/sovereignty" or Trinity topics - especially directly continually using those terms. It has caused too much strife on the boards and is not allowed. (Discuss your point of view without pushing those "hot buttons".)
These rules may be amended from time to time so keep up to date with them.
Quote from: Lefein on November 26, 2010, 07:19:29 PM
Just some observations, that I feel the need to express; And Shawn, please correct me if I am wrong, or affirm were I am right regarding you if you are willing. ^_^
Shawn I don't believe is trying to tear down the doctrine (teaching drawn from the scriptures) of Universal Reconciliation. If I may be bold, and this forum knows I am bold as brass - I think Shawn is playing the advocate for LS, a fellow sister (UR, or not - it does not matter one wit) who has been nearly surrounded on all sides here.
I understand that it is difficult on a forum not to surround, especially considering the nature of the problem, and I cannot speak for Shawn as he himself can, but it is my hope to see that neither Shawn, nor LS are mistreated - even unknowingly, and there has been mistreatment perceived enough to be mistreatment. If there were none; LS would not have posted talking about insults, and she would not have felt like she has put her foot in the hornet's nest (as seen from my very own prayer thread).
We are supposed to present the truth in Love, not with raised up stringers at the feet of our beloved brethren who have not shown themselves to be violent members needing correction. We are not serpents, and scorpions, so I think we can put away our venom, and stingers, and fangs...I would hope we would, and I'd hope we would not act like we are - unless we want the body of Christ to crush us beneath his heel - and I say this, even those in the Harlot System are true, yes True Christians, despite their doctrines - whether they be annihiliation, eternal damnation, or otherwise - so long as they are indeed making progress with the Father to be his children, showing fruit - not leaves.
That said; I support LS's observation, especially that of Shawn not being quarrelsome, I saw only a glimpse of the before - but the after has been interesting, peaceful, and a strange sort of good change.
Suffice to say; he is not a child of the harlot system, and it is not fair to call him one.
There are better ways to be blunt, and better targets to be blunt towards before turning the club to others - the self, is an excellent target first. I find that when I've beaten myself sufficiently with my own weapon...I feel less inclined to want to beat someone else with it, and not saying I am perfect and never do, only that I am not so eager to wail on someone with something I know very well hurts.
We must remember with the scriptures; Scriptures are not roots (my :2c:) they are stems that grow up from roots deep within, that themselves grow up from seeds planted by various sources. Some are from God, others are from traditions of angels, devils, or men, others are from our own selves. None of us is a perfect field.
__ __ __
Now, that having been said;
LS, I would like to try a different approach with you if you are willing. Tell me about your beliefs, share with me what you offer, and I will share what I can offer. The basic, civilised exchange of ideas - Let us reason together, and converse. :)
Firstly, tell me about Annihilationism. :cloud9:
First, thank you for that post. It is almost 100% correct. The only part about me being an advocate for LS is somewhat off kilter. In the past, LS has presented very compelling and very strong debate points using extensive scriptural support. I was impressed with her even handed and strongly supported stance. I don't advocate for LS because she does so well for herself. But, I do find her posts educational.
What bothers me is when some members here like to group and label people. Oh those ED and ET guys...blah blah are this and that...horrible people, have no scriptural support...yada yada. When I read things like that I will say woh now hold up. I have seen solid ED stances supported by
much scripture. And I find their stance reasonable and supported by scripture. I understand their conclusions.
I also see many of the US points. They do have some support in the translations. But, to me it appears more reasoned out then supported by scriptural evidence (at least in the english translations). And as I said before, I am not an expert in Greek therefore will be mainly studying from the english. With that said, I long for US to be true. It's why I came here. If I need to believe in US to be a member here I will gladly leave. If members here refuse to debate with respect I will go elsewhere. I have no need for fighting, name calling, and judgmental spirits. It's just not where I am in my spiritual walk. I have a great desire to be at peace with men and women...not pulling each others hair.
There are a couple members here who have been continually warned. Yet, their behavior does not change. The Bible is clear about how we handle such situations.
Titus 3:10-11
As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
Matthew 18:15-17
If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
:cloud9: On a personal note.....I came out of the Harlot system, and as such, that makes me a "child" of her, in the sense of one having been "birthed" out of her. Anyone that's ever sat on a church pew ANYWHERE, was at one time or another, a "child" of "hers". I find no shame in this, nor do I consider it an insult, but merely a statement of fact; we all had to start somewhere.
The process after that, that we are ALL undergoing, is the removal of the "afterbirth" and being cleansed of the mother's blood, which is a work of the HG. Varying degrees of it remain, staining ALL our garments, until He washes them white as snow. We are not as those still in "her", who will eventually be as one stillborn if they do not come out of her, but our accountability factor is higher as we have been entrusted as midwives to help the others. Let us walk worthy of our calling. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on November 26, 2010, 08:06:08 PM
:cloud9: On a personal note.....I came out of the Harlot system, and as such, that makes me a "child" of her, in the sense of one having been "birthed" out of her. Anyone that's ever sat on a church pew ANYWHERE, was at one time or another, a "child" of "hers". I find no shame in this, nor do I consider it an insult, but merely a statement of fact; we all had to start somewhere.
The process after that, that we are ALL undergoing, is the removal of the "afterbirth" and being cleansed of the mother's blood, which is a work of the HG. Varying degrees of it remain, staining ALL our garments, until He washes them white as snow. We are not as those still in "her", who will eventually be as one stillborn if they do not come out of her, but our accountability factor is higher as we have been entrusted as midwives to help the others. Let us walk worthy of our calling. Blessings....
Yes and Amen. Selah.
If someone called me a child of the Harlot system...I'd certainly take it as an insult - I am to be called a son of God, and the Bride.
Christ did not consort with Babylon to raise up children. In my honest opinion, to call someone a son or daughter of Babylon, is tantamount to stamping 666 on their forehead by our own judgement. :2c:
If someone called me a child of the Harlot system...I'd certainly take it as an insult - I am to be called a son of God, and the Bride.
Agreed. I am not a child of the harlot system. I am a son of God. I believe we should so each other that kind of love and respect.
Quote from: shawn on November 26, 2010, 07:49:51 PM
There are a couple members here who have been continually warned. Yet, their behavior does not change. The Bible is clear about how we handle such situations.
Titus 3:10-11
As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
Matthew 18:15-17
If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
YLTMatt 1822 Jesus saith to him, `I do not say to thee till seven times, but till seventy times seven.
:cloud9: @ Lefein....Uh, yes, He did. All flesh is female to God (the Spirit plants the seed) UNTIL the manifestation of the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON in a many-membered body. Think not? Are you part of the bride He's "returning" for? The natural, as always, bears this witness, as all babies are female FIRST, before a change occurs to make them males. Only begotten, means there is only one, who will manifest in a many-membered body.
And since that "woman" is outside the inner court as decreed by law (only the priests were allowed into the inner sanctum) in the outer court, the ONLY WAY she can enter is to be ONE WITH HER HUSBAND, thus since they are then one flesh, "she" enters too. This is the principle behind why the NT tells us there is neither male nor female in Christ (inner court) Jesus (outer court). Not because there is either/or as if some neutral creature, but because there is BOTH. Blessings....
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 26, 2010, 08:31:41 PM
Quote from: shawn on November 26, 2010, 07:49:51 PM
There are a couple members here who have been continually warned. Yet, their behavior does not change. The Bible is clear about how we handle such situations.
Titus 3:10-11
As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
Matthew 18:15-17
If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
YLTMatt 18
22 Jesus saith to him, `I do not say to thee till seven times, but till seventy times seven.
Do you believe that verse is a statment about letting fellow believers abuse each other? I doubt it. It's a statement made to emphasize the importance of forgiveness. We should ALWAYS forgive. That doesn't mean you allow someone with a divisive spirit to break the peace within a community of believers. You can forgive someone yet allow them to experience consequences for their actions. :2c:
Quote from: Lefein on November 26, 2010, 07:19:29 PM
LS, I would like to try a different approach with you if you are willing. Tell me about your beliefs, share with me what you offer, and I will share what I can offer. The basic, civilised exchange of ideas - Let us reason together, and converse. :)
Firstly, tell me about Annihilationism. :cloud9:
Hi Lefein ... I want you to know that many of your posts have blessed me. I agree with you on a number of topics and have thought you presented them well.
In Travis' introduction thread, Hello, I'm Travis, post #78 I explained what brought me to TM.
And like Shawn wrote, I often see people at TM make comments like, "How do ED and ET-ers believe that?" type of statements. So I've only tried to explain how I see certain things in scripture. I never attempt to argue anyone out of believing US; that's never been my intent and I hope I haven't come across that way. I just like to discuss, I like to understand others' viewpoints, I like give & take. I started a few threads in the Arguments Against Universal Salvation forum and have listened carefully to all of the replies; there are some very sharp people here and I've enjoyed looking at the scriptures they've given and considering their points.
All that said, I know this board is meant to be a safe haven for like-minded believers in universal salvation and I appreciate it for what it is. I'll try to stick to the prayer threads if I'm going to post; that's my ministry anyway :cloud9:
I appreciate your kindness and look forward to reading more of your posts :icon_flower:
I am glad to have been a blessing to you LS, and I hope to not fail in that in the future, and I pray my posts will contain more honey than venom in the future as well.
You're blessed, and I am thankful that you exist. ^^
Quote from: Lefein on November 26, 2010, 08:41:50 PM
I am glad to have been a blessing to you LS, and I hope to not fail in that in the future, and I pray my posts will contain more honey than venom in the future as well.
You're blessed, and I am thankful that you exist. ^^
And I appreciate your posts as well. I can tell we share much in common. We are both passionate and emotional. Unfortunately, those type of personalities can also be offended with ease. God has worked on me for years in that area. He has done so by establishing in my mind that I am indeed a son of God. I am loved by him. No person's opinion of me matters much and certainly doesn't carry eternal weight. If I keep that in mind, I avoid the weight of offense. When I don't well...then I get bothered.
I have seen some members grow even in the short time I have been here. You are one of them.
Quote from: Lefein on November 26, 2010, 08:21:47 PM
If someone called me a child of the Harlot system...I'd certainly take it as an insult - I am to be called a son of God, and the Bride.
Don't you think we are all a child of the harlot system at some point? I don't think it was an insult...
This is just my personal viewpoint. But as one who believed in eternal torment for 30 years, then considered annihilation for a short period of time, before fully studying and embracing the concept of universal salvation, I can see what willie is saying. I was in that system for a LONG time. While in that system I contradicted myself, I didn't understand it, I thought about those who would go into that alleged eternal torment - I didn't know what to do about it. I even though some would probably deserve it - even though that makes no sense. ET was senseless. Annihilation, while agreeably is infinitely more merciful than ET, still does not even come close to offering a full victory for Christ.
We ALL have to come out of the harlot system at some point. ("Come out of her my people" - Rev 18). We are each in different places in this journey, if someone is in a different place in the journey things may seem insulting or offensive only because they have a different perspective. Look at all the ETers who curse the very idea of UR and find it insulting to their sensibility.
Perhaps what I just said in this post makes no sense to you so it might seem offensive again - trust me that is not my intent.
For those who are searching, maybe it is good to just study for a long long time - without getting into big debates because of the strife and feelings that are hurt. Try to clarify what you yourself believe first. Read scripture, read articles from all viewpoints interpreting scripture. Examine it without bias. Try to determine which is reasonable and logical based on what all scriptures say. Pray on it.
The scriptures do not contradict. The statements: "God will have all men to be saved" and "The wicked people will be annihilated into eternal death" cannot both be true.
Quote from: LS on November 26, 2010, 08:39:20 PM
Quote from: Lefein on November 26, 2010, 07:19:29 PM
LS, I would like to try a different approach with you if you are willing. Tell me about your beliefs, share with me what you offer, and I will share what I can offer. The basic, civilised exchange of ideas - Let us reason together, and converse. :)
Firstly, tell me about Annihilationism. :cloud9:
And like Shawn wrote, I often see people at TM make comments like, "How do ED and ET-ers believe that?" type of statements.
I'm guilty of that. But you have to add UR to the list too. Not all UR people believe the same as you very likely noticed :2c: But still they all get that same UR label.
But still I see no big harm in it. If we need to be so careful with words that it starts like writing a legal document then this forum will be dead.
QuoteSo I've only tried to explain how I see certain things in scripture. I never attempt to argue anyone out of believing US; that's never been my intent and I hope I haven't come across that way. I just like to discuss,
And that's a pitty. Although you have an ED label the verses you use carry the HS label. I think a forum trives on disagreement. (not foodfight)
QuoteI started a few threads in the Arguments Against Universal Salvation forum and have listened carefully to all of the replies; there are some very sharp people here and I've enjoyed looking at the scriptures they've given and considering their points.
I can say there is at least 1 person on this forum that likes to hear other views. Iron sharpens iron. But if we all walk aroud with rubber sticks....
QuoteAll that said, I know this board is meant to be a safe haven for like-minded believers in universal salvation
Not 100% sure but I think this forum is about learning about UR. Of course you are partly right because owner of this forum (and many others) think/hope you will get converted to UR.
:2c:
:cloud9: Thank you, Legoman, that's what I was trying to say :thumbsup:
Quote from: legoman on November 26, 2010, 09:01:22 PM
Quote from: Lefein on November 26, 2010, 08:21:47 PM
If someone called me a child of the Harlot system...I'd certainly take it as an insult - I am to be called a son of God, and the Bride.
Don't you think we are all a child of the harlot system at some point? I don't think it was an insult...
This is just my personal viewpoint. But as one who believed in eternal torment for 30 years, then considered annihilation for a short period of time, before fully studying and embracing the concept of universal salvation, I can see what willie is saying. I was in that system for a LONG time. While in that system I contradicted myself, I didn't understand it, I thought about those who would go into that alleged eternal torment - I didn't know what to do about it. I even though some would probably deserve it - even though that makes no sense. ET was senseless. Annihilation, while agreeably is infinitely more merciful than ET, still does not even come close to offering a full victory for Christ.
We ALL have to come out of the harlot system at some point. ("Come out of her my people" - Rev 18). We are each in different places in this journey, if someone is in a different place in the journey things may seem insulting or offensive only because they have a different perspective. Look at all the ETers who curse the very idea of UR and find it insulting to their sensibility.
Perhaps what I just said in this post makes no sense to you so it might seem offensive again - trust me that is not my intent.
For those who are searching, maybe it is good to just study for a long long time - without getting into big debates because of the strife and feelings that are hurt. Try to clarify what you yourself believe first. Read scripture, read articles from all viewpoints interpreting scripture. Examine it without bias. Try to determine which is reasonable and logical based on what all scriptures say. Pray on it.
The scriptures do not contradict. The statements: "God will have all men to be saved" and "The wicked people will be annihilated into eternal death" cannot both be true.
We used to be sons of the devil as well. But, do we refer to other believers with that term? I would hope not. I don't think we have to handle each other with kid gloves but we should try to state our opinions with respect. There is zero reason to turn them into personal insults.
Amen Shawn.
Quote from: shawn on November 26, 2010, 09:11:42 PM
Quote from: legoman on November 26, 2010, 09:01:22 PM
Quote from: Lefein on November 26, 2010, 08:21:47 PM
If someone called me a child of the Harlot system...I'd certainly take it as an insult - I am to be called a son of God, and the Bride.
Don't you think we are all a child of the harlot system at some point? I don't think it was an insult...
This is just my personal viewpoint. But as one who believed in eternal torment for 30 years, then considered annihilation for a short period of time, before fully studying and embracing the concept of universal salvation, I can see what willie is saying. I was in that system for a LONG time. While in that system I contradicted myself, I didn't understand it, I thought about those who would go into that alleged eternal torment - I didn't know what to do about it. I even though some would probably deserve it - even though that makes no sense. ET was senseless. Annihilation, while agreeably is infinitely more merciful than ET, still does not even come close to offering a full victory for Christ.
We ALL have to come out of the harlot system at some point. ("Come out of her my people" - Rev 18). We are each in different places in this journey, if someone is in a different place in the journey things may seem insulting or offensive only because they have a different perspective. Look at all the ETers who curse the very idea of UR and find it insulting to their sensibility.
Perhaps what I just said in this post makes no sense to you so it might seem offensive again - trust me that is not my intent.
For those who are searching, maybe it is good to just study for a long long time - without getting into big debates because of the strife and feelings that are hurt. Try to clarify what you yourself believe first. Read scripture, read articles from all viewpoints interpreting scripture. Examine it without bias. Try to determine which is reasonable and logical based on what all scriptures say. Pray on it.
The scriptures do not contradict. The statements: "God will have all men to be saved" and "The wicked people will be annihilated into eternal death" cannot both be true.
We used to be sons of the devil as well. But, do we refer to other believers with that term? I would hope not. I don't think we have to handle each other with kid gloves but we should try to state our opinions with respect. There is zero reason to turn them into personal insults.
Ok, we seem to be dwelling on this point a bit. I think it is a matter of perspective.
Sure you would not call another believer the son of the devil. I understand that. But consider this for a moment. What do you think of the doctrine of eternal torment? I find it to be a very despicable doctrine. Personally I would call it a doctrine of the devil, and many people we call "believers" who believe in eternal torment, are actually horribly lost, because they think that God saved them because of whatever special rules they believe they must do to be saved, but He will not save everybody else, because they didn't do the "right thing" (whatever that is).
Now do you agree with this, or is this just a horrible insult I've made to all believers in eternal torment? I guess the point I'm making is the truth can seem like an insult, when perhaps we need to humbly ask what is it all about.
I know for sure 100% of ET believers will be insulted if you tell them the doctrine of eternal torment is actually from satan. But it was not meant as an insult, its simply the way things are.
I don't think that is the point being addressed here Legoman, there is more to an insult than the words being used - context is important, and especially the tone - perceived or purposed.
Tip for future posters: You can make your point, without being up in someone's face about it, putting them into a corner, and projecting the argument back onto the person. It is ungodly to constantly do so - there is a time and a place, that time and place is not omnipresent. God gave us common sense, which in the ancient world was called wisdom. We would do well to use this untapped gift of the Spirit, especially when dealing with our fellow brothers and sisters.
Spare the rod, does not mean wailing on your child in the face with an iron mace - I think we can apply this principle to discussions that require at times brotherly discipline, or chastisement when it is required (and I emphasise when, and add an especial; if) to present the Truth in Love.
And of course, as the old phrase goes - for every finger pointed at you, there are three pointed back at myself: I am aware of my own faults. :thumbsup:
Just what do you brothers believe you came out of to get where you are at? Were you just born as the sons of God and bride? :sigh:
Yes Micah, we were.
I myself have been born 'again from above'. Not to a religious prostitute who pretends to be my mother - but to the faithful Bride who is my real mother.
Recall the judgement of Solomon and the two women with the baby.
Though the Bride and Babylon stand before the son of David, arguing over whose son I am, I do not belong to Babylon, who suffocated her babe - though she may have taken me out of my mother's arms for a little while to pretend to be my mother in an attempt to steal me, while at the same time putting a dead child upon the Bride's bosom - though all of this was done, I am returned to the woman who birthed me by the son of David, and now I am nursing and gaining my strength to grow.
Quote from: Lefein on November 26, 2010, 10:07:37 PM
Yes Micah, we were.
I myself have been born 'again from above'. Not to a religious prostitute who pretends to be my mother - but to the faithful Bride who is my real mother.
Recall the judgement of Solomon and the two women with the baby.
Though the Bride and Babylon stand before the son of David, arguing over whose son I am, I do not belong to Babylon, who suffocated her babe - though she may have taken me out of my mother's arms for a little while to pretend to be my mother in an attempt to steal me, while at the same time putting a dead child upon the Bride's bosom - though all of this was done, I am returned to the woman who birthed me by the son of David, and now I am nursing and gaining my strength to grow.
Explain that please with some scripture.
2Co 6:17 wherefore,
come ye forth out of the midst of them, and be separated, saith the Lord, and an unclean thing do not touch, and I--I will receive you,
2Co 6:18 and I will be to you for a Father, and ye--ye shall be to Me for sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.'
:cloud9: Lefein, being born from above has NOTHING to do with mouthing the words taught in the churches to garner the initial salvation experience, but EVERYTHING to do with the REAL "rapture". We are CAUGHT UP into NEW Jerusalem which is from above, and which is our mother.
And the "mark" of this is that you have been set free from the law of sin and death (experientially NOT just doctrinal assent), which results, among other things, in our conversation being FROM HEAVEN, which is why John said in Revelation that he heard things NOT LAWFUL (ie. of the law from Jerusalem that is below, which engenders bondage) for man to speak.
Thank God these things ARE lawful for the SON IN US, to speak, and they bring LIBERTY, the liberty found in the Spirit which is liberty and life in Christ Jesus. Blessings....
:sigh: I see this thread is deteriorating once again, so will remain locked for a season.
:cloud9: If the TOPIC can be discussed without degenerating again to personal slights, snarky belittling comments, and inuendos, the thread will remain open, as of now. If not, further steps may be taken without further notice. Thank you all for your cooperation.......
:cloud9: Thought this was interesting as we were talking about Sirach a couple of pages back.....this is an excerpt from Wikipedia....another section of the article mentions that Jesus may have been quoting from it in a few passages......
"The work of Ben Sira is presently known through various versions, which scholars still struggle to disentangle.
The Greek version of Ben Sira is found in many codices of the Septuagint. An English version of the Septuagint text can be found here.
In the early 20th century several substantial Hebrew texts of Ben Sira, copied in the eleventh and twelfth centuries CE, were found in the Cairo geniza (a synagogue storage room for damaged manuscripts). Although none of these manuscripts is complete, together they provide the text for about two-thirds of the book of Ben Sira. According to Frederic Kenyon, this shows that the book was originally written in Hebrew. (Our Bible and the Ancient Manuscripts. Rev. by A.W. Adams. London: Eyre & Spottiswoode, 1958. 83.) That Sirach was originally written in Hebrew may be of some significance for the biblical canon. The book was accepted into the canon of the Old Testament by Catholicism and Eastern Orthdoxy but not by Judaism or Protestantism.
In the 1950s and 1960s three copies of portions of Ben Sira were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. The largest scroll was discovered at Masada, the famous Jewish fortress destroyed in 73 CE. The earliest of these scrolls (2Q18) has been dated to the second part of the 1st century BCE, approximately 150 years after Ben Sira was first composed. These early Hebrew texts are in substantial agreement with the Hebrew texts discovered in Cairo, although there are numerous minor textual variants. With these findings, scholars are now more confident that the Cairo texts are reliable witnesses to the Hebrew original.
Thank you Cardinal - that's awesome! Sirach is my favorite of the deuterocanonical books; Wisdom is really great too. :girlheart: