What's so bad about annihilation

[Beloved Servant]

I do.

[jabcat]

I believe Shawn personally respects what we have.  I think he may wonder if some of the other apocryphal books may also have some merit;  others have expressed the same, including quoting for example, from the books of Enoch and Judas.

I personally doubt the "absolute" inspiration of the apocryphal books;  the manuscripts of the canonized ones are very consistent with each other.

HOWEVER, as I said, we probably need to let this go on past, because it's proven to be too volatile and divisive a subject.

Moving (sliding) right along.... :bigGrin:

[legoman]

Was it not to legoman?

I would love to know what you believe legoman's point was.

I am curious though.  This is a group of Christians who very much mistrust the motives, and the translational abilities of 4-5th century church leaders.  So, why is it that you trust their ability to canonize scripture?  Where does the mistrust end?

Well I was just a little surprised because I had never seen a scripture that said anything about "free choice".  Then I realized it wasn't actually scripture.

I didn't realize it was part of the Catholic bible - I should check it out (since I even go to a Catholic church!  My wife is Catholic...)

Anyway since it is not "official canon", we shouldn't really use those books as proof of anything, other than some people wrote it down like that many centuries ago... I suppose it is interesting to quote them, but it should not be treated as scripture IMHO.

Catholic canon was used very little in those quotes.  Most come straight from your Bible.  With that said, my question was not addressed.  If we do not trust 4th and 5th century religious leaders to translate...why do we trust them to canonize?

Shawn, you seem a little defensive, no offense was meant.  I addressed the scriptures you listed about the wicked being destroyed, I'm not sure if you read it or not.  Perhaps you could respond to that.

Regarding trusting 4th/5th century leaders - I don't really know what you are expecting me to say.  From day one (ok since I was about 8 years old or so) I have a had an English bible (NIV).  For a long time I thought it was infallible.  Then I learned that the words 'eternal'/'forever'/'hell' are not translated correctly.  So I have come to realize the English translation is not infallible.  I do believe the text in the original language is correct (or very near correct) - things like the dead sea scrolls and other studies sort of confirm this for me.  Of course the question is how it is translated.  So do I trust how some bibles have been translated?  Not as much as I used to.

Personally I have not studied the non-canon material very much, so I can't say one way or another what it means if anything.  I was just pointing out that it was not scripture because the way it was posted mixed in with the other verses, it looked like it was all 'official' scripture.  I mean you could quote somebody saying "all sinners will burn in hell and their skin will fall off and then regrow so it can be burned off again" and it doesn't mean its true.  In fact I think there is something like that in the Koran, but I'm sure I don't have the quote exactly right.

From the small snippet you posted of Sirach - I don't believe that portion lines up with the rest of scripture that I've read.  That's neither here nor there.  JMHO.

Be well...

[legoman]

Yes perhaps we can let the question of canon go, I don't really understand how that whole process worked anyway, it was really just an observation from me and that's all.

To get back on topic, did you read my response to your list of verses Shawn?  Here it is again:
--

I don't think anyone is denying that the wicked will be destroyed - that is what you think these verses mean right?  The wicked will be destroyed - I agree, hallelujah!  There won't be any wicked people in heaven - it wouldn't be much of a heaven if there were still wicked people around?

However this destruction cannot mean annihilation or eternal death, for that would contradict all the other verses that have been raised - God will have all men to be saved - all will be made alive in Christ - every knee will bow and every tongue confess and even swear allegiance to Him. etc.

So it is imperative to understand what is meant when we read the wicked are destroyed.

Consider Saul/Paul.  He should be viewed as the "everyman" - the model for all conversion.  First note it was God who did the converting - God is in control.  Secondly why was he first called Saul - the chief of sinners who persecuted and killed many, but then when he was converted he became the great apostle Paul?

After Paul's conversion, Saul was no more - he was destroyed.  The wicked Saul was destroyed by destroying the wickedness out of himself.  This left only Paul.
Saul was the old carnal self, Paul was the new creation.  Note that we all start with a physical name, but when we are converted we are given a new name.  The old man is destroyed.

We learn that names are written in the "book of life" (which is Christ).  We can be rest assured that Saul was not written in the book of life, but Paul most certainly is.  And so it will be for all of us.  Like I said, Saul/Paul is the "everyman" - he is the model, for God is not respecter of persons; so all will be converted in a similar manner as Paul was.

And so the wicked are truly destroyed when our carnal self is fully and completely destroyed.

Please consider this when reading the verses you posted above.

Peace out Shawn...

[shawn]

Not defensive.  I am not Catholic, what stake do I have in Sirach?  But, we do have members who are Catholic here.  So, my point was if we are to invalidate scripture that some here hold as Holy Spirit inspired...we should know why we believe what we believe.  I just think that is responsible.  For instance, I don't believe Sirach to be inspired because...yada yada.  I believe most do not consider Sirach inspired because the same guys who many here believe mistranslated the Bible...said so.  If that is the case, maybe we should stay silent on certain things until we are able to defend our stances with consistency.

As for your thoughts on the verses I brought up.  I think that is well thought out and a very compelling argument.  I do think that to be a very reasonable possibility.  It doesn't seem contrived and it does make sense to me.   

[shawn]

I, for one, believe the Holy Bible is the inspired Word of God not written by or approved of by man.

Tentmaker may have a stance on that, perhaps one of the moderators would tell you if it is not written.

Certain persons, including myself, highly esteem the written Word of God.

Do you really believe I am trying to invalidate the word of God?  It wouldn't be the first time I have been misrepresented here.  But, I am asking a very tough and direct question.  The reason I do so is to build some respect and tolerance for other Christians who believe a bit differently than ourselves.  If you don't believe the Catholic Bible to be entirely inspired...don't you think you should know why?   

[Beloved Servant]

No, I don't want to know so please don't force me to know.


The whole idea is vexing.

[Lefein]

If I may offer a peaceful position for quotes and verses such as the ones presented, like Sirach?

Let the Holy Spirit bring out what he may - God is not so finite as to be contained to a few pages of his own diary.  He can bring something out of a Vedic text if he so chooses, though he did not inspire them.  Now, I am not saying that he will bring something out, nor am I suggesting a free-for all.

I only wanted to offer...that we should let the Spirit speak, and not quench him, especially if a benevolent end can be obtained by quoting something that isn't between the covers of the good book.  :cloud9:

It is the Spirit who inspires - not the text.

[shawn]

No, I don't want to know so please don't force me to know.


The whole idea is vexing.

That is fair enough.  All I ask is if that is the stance that we choose to take...then we shouldn't rush to conclusions about the Holy Spirit inspiration of the Deuterocanonicals.

And I must agree with the spirit of Lefein's post.  I read through some of Sirach and it touched me where I was at.  It uplifted my spirit.  It strengthened me in a time when I needed strength.

[Beloved Servant]

Rush to conclusions????????????????????????????????

I've been searching most of my life, thank you, shawn.




(I needed to edit out some of your Q marks David.  It was making my computer screen stretch like an additional 50% wide and I couldn't see posts.  Now it's OK   :dontknow:)
Anyway, so as to enforce your original intended effect, there was probably about another 50  '?'   :)

[shawn]

Rush to conclusions????????????????????????????????

I've been searching most of my life, thank you, shawn.




(I needed to edit out some of your Q marks David.  It was making my computer screen stretch like an additional 50% wide and I couldn't see posts.  Now it's OK   :dontknow:)
Anyway, so as to enforce your original intended effect, there was probably about another 50  '?'   :)

You have been searching all your life about the inspiration of the Deuterocanonicals?  I apologize if I misread the situation.  What have you learned? 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I agree with Lefein that it is the Spirit that inspires, not the text. Having said that, I also think the Bible we have as written is definitely the inspiried word of God, although there are some faulty word translations as we all know by now.

But I also think He can and has spoken in snipets here and there to those that didn't have ears to hear the One, and within reason and common sense selections, it doesn't bother me to read other works like Sirach, the Dead Sea scrolls, ect., GLEANING the inspiration of the Spirit that MIGHT be there. My  :2c: Blessings...

[Beloved Servant]

God speaks to us in the realities we most simply understand.

A child's smile
or a distant star,
a flower that suddenly
attracts our attention
or the sound
of our name
on the lips
of those we love.

[Beloved Servant]

Rush to conclusions????????????????????????????????

I've been searching most of my life, thank you, shawn.




(I needed to edit out some of your Q marks David.  It was making my computer screen stretch like an additional 50% wide and I couldn't see posts.  Now it's OK   :dontknow:)
Anyway, so as to enforce your original intended effect, there was probably about another 50  '?'   :)

You have been searching all your life about the inspiration of the Deuterocanonicals?  I apologize if I misread the situation.  What have you learned?

I've learned the Truth.

[thinktank]

 :laughing7:

[Beloved Servant]

:laughing7:

What's so funny thinktank?

[thinktank]

Just the stark reply. It's like I imagine a proffesor asking his student

"so what have you learned here in university for 7 years"

Sudent: "A lot"

Proffessor:  :msealed:  umm, speechless, "can't argue with that"  :happygrin:

[Beloved Servant]

That's also the way I am in person.
My dad was in the military all my life, that could be the cause.

[micah7:9]

I, for one, believe the Holy Bible is the inspired Word of God not written by or approved of by man.

Tentmaker may have a stance on that, perhaps one of the moderators would tell you if it is not written.

Certain persons, including myself, highly esteem the written Word of God.

Yes! Rather than a thumbs up..!

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Tank...  :Sparkletooth:

Obviously you have little experience in the dealings of LOVE... Love thinks of OTHERS, not of SELF... and GOD knowing that we are in a condition which is IN PERIL... did just THAT.  Even though you cannot see it in this moment...   :cloud9:

Ls don't worry about willies remarks, I believe you are sincere in love and the lord and care a great deal about people. Having knowledge that all be saved is not entirely based on love, but is something that is revealed through experience, study and time.

LS does not need to "worry"... LS needs to consider... and no one inferred that LS was not sincere... just that experience with LOVE by LS's remarks seemed absent.

willieH were you not once a non beliver in the salvation of all. So why do you make statements such as these above to fellow believer LS.

Actually, LS is able to speak for him/herself.  That I was once veiled to the Salvation of all is not the point.  And really, is not your business anyway.  You were not spoken to...

Having knowledge of THE Salvation of ALL, YOU think YOURSELF to be BE RIGHTEOUS

Now it is you which mouths off, Tank... Criticizing my remarks to LS, then making false statements of me in your next breath!

I do not think of myself as RIGHTEOUS at all... matter of fact... I more think of myself as completely UNWORTHY of the Salvation provided by YHVH through JESUS CHRIST...

And your remarks to me are OUT OF LINE.  :thumbdown:

and fellow believer LS unrighteous  :thumbdown: when the WORD says THAT all are UNRIGHTEOUS  :dontknow:

YOU are the one contending "righteousness" Tank... I didn't mention it AT ALL!  :thumbdown:

Where did I say that "I was righteous, and that LS was not"?  The TRUTH is that I DID NOT SAY any such thing, Tank!

Those are your (FALSE) words... :nod:

willieH  :cloud9:

[micah7:9]

Yes David, thank you, the link is in my signature at the bottom of my posts.

Yes! Again rather than a thumbs up!

[micah7:9]

Quote from: thinktank on November 23, 2010, 11:24:05 PM
Having knowledge of THE Salvation of ALL, YOU think YOURSELF to be BE RIGHTEOUS

No, my friend and brother, we think ourselves  thankful and humble that Our Father has such great love that He would gather all His children, obedient and disobedient back for the feast. Luk 15:24  because this my son was dead, and did live again, and he was lost, and was found; and they began to be merry.
I love you Thinktank.

[Lefein]

I've learned the Truth.

You've learned Jesus, excellent that's a good start.

Now, let the same Spirit who began his work having drawn you into the Spirit, continue to that work of making you perfect.

[Lefein]

If I may be so bold, I believe Thinktank's point was that just because LS is not a Universal Reconciliationist, does not mean that she needs to be looked down upon, or scolded like she was an ignorant beast, or sinful harlot, even by implication.

[Lefein]

:cloud9: I'm well on my way, and at such a young age too - May God be blessed through the aions for his brilliant work in me.