Unforgiving servant, 10,000 talents, and a debt that can't be paid

[CrossoverManiac]

From http://preacherwin.wordpress.com/2008/04/08/forgiving-the-wicked-servant/:

A talent on the other hand was equivalent to about 6,000 denarii.  In the parable, the servant owed the king 10,000 talents—or 60 million days worth of labor.  On a 6-day workweek, that would take nearly 192,308 years to pay off!  It would take the entire salaries of 2,000 workers, working for 96 years to pay this debit off!  In modern terms, this figure would look something like the national debit.  With this before us, now, perhaps, we can start to get a better feel for the ratio of debit that these two men had to their names.  To help bring things into perspective even more, the gross national income during the height of Solomon's reign was 666 talents of gold.  Solomon was the richest of the kings of Israel and the debit that this lowly servant owed was 15 times greater.

and

Yet, there is another side to the coin.  The punishment for the servant who was forgiven yet refused to forgive was to be thrown into torture. This is no debtor's prison that the master sends the servant to, but literally, the passage says that the master handed him over to the basanisth/ß(basanistas).  This word is used not so much to refer to a jailer, but to refer to a jailer who tortures.  Probably the closest thing that we have in our more modern history is the Inquisitors that worked for the Roman Catholic Church not only in Spain but elsewhere in the world.  These men went out of their way to devise tortures that would push men and women to the point of death without killing them.  This is the general idea that Jesus is conveying.  It is not simply that this unforgiving servant will have to sit in jail for all of eternity, but he will experience horrendous torture day in and day out for that time.

How would you address the argument that sin cannot be paid back with any temporary punishment?

[sheila]

...you MUST forgive those who sinned against you or your heavenly Father will not forgive your sins...

   ....until.......you realize and confess and obey this from the heart you will not have peace

  with God or your fellowman.[      Torment is the opposite of peace..

    sin may not be payed back with temporary punishment..but suffering,affliction  and chastisement

    and consequences of our  debt  can cause a change of attitude[heart/mind] and a confession,

      with repentance and a little more appreciation for mercy when it is given you.

 

[Seth]

Just to tack on a bit to what Sheila said:

Matthew 18
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

How can it be said that the debt "can't be paid" when the parable says "UNTIL she should pay all that was due?"

[josh]

now to forgive when they sin and know it not
but there might be sins that one should not forgive but rather rebuke
so as to help someone come to repentance
then always forgive when they repent..

Luk 17:3  Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luk 17:4  And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

[CrossoverManiac]

Just to tack on a bit to what Sheila said:

Matthew 18
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

How can it be said that the debt "can't be paid" when the parable says "UNTIL she should pay all that was due?"

I think he was saying he would in debtors prison forever because the debt is too large to pay back (almost 200,000 years worth of wages)

[josh]

perhaps this relates to something from hebrews

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

[Seth]

I think he was saying he would in debtors prison forever because the debt is too large to pay back (almost 200,000 years worth of wages)

Yeah, but the parable never says it's too large to pay back.  :dontknow:

[josh]

How much is 10000 talents worth?

WIKI SAYS 2 AND A QUARTER BILLION DOLLARS

WELL SAY ONE COULD DO IT IN A LIFETIME
IF ONE made around 4 million a year...
now if one had a buddy like gates......

[WhiteWings]

How would you address the argument that sin cannot be paid back with any temporary punishment?

Bride = kallâh = כּלּה = pronounced as: kal-law
Bread = Challah = חלה = pronounced as: khaw-law
Finished = Kalah = כלה = pronounced as: kaw-law
The above words are pronounce quite similarly.
When the last Passover lamb was killed the high priest said: "It's finished."

The Shabbat in Jewish tradition is compared to a bride. Just as the veil of the bride is removed after the blessings have been recited, so are the Challah "unveiled" after the blessing is recited and the bread is about to be cut. The Challah is three breads braided into a lover's embrace of the couple with God in their relationship. It also represents the first three covenants that merge into one as the ultimate covenant: marriage. Info. 

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished ....
"It is finished" in Hebrew can be seen a play on word to reference to a wedding. He paid the Mohar, bride's price.
"It is finished" in Greek often is said be a shorthand form of "tetelestai" which was written on legal documents to show a debt was fully paid. While some totally disagree with John 19:30 referencing to that word many assume Jesus was saying He paid our debts of sin on the cross. I agree with that but think there is a second meaning. It was also His payment of the Mohar the bride's price or bride's ransom.



Imo Jesus paid all debts (past, present, future). Implying some extra has to be paid is an insult toward Jesus. So there isn't any debt left to pay. Note that debt and punishment aren't equal to correction/learning which still takes/will take place.
:2c:

[WhiteWings]

How much is 10000 talents worth?

WIKI SAYS 2 AND A QUARTER BILLION DOLLARS

WELL SAY ONE COULD DO IT IN A LIFETIME
IF ONE made around 4 million a year...
now if one had a buddy like gates......

Let's skip the math......
Do you think a big earner has more chance to get into heaven?

[WhiteWings]

I think he was saying he would in debtors prison forever because the debt is too large to pay back (almost 200,000 years worth of wages)

Imo it's one of the pilars of the whole Bible teaching. Mankind can in no way pay the debts of sin.*
Except... the extremely wealthy Son of the Owner of everything. :laugh:


*= That's why pre-Jesus all sins were covered by animal blood. Covered but not removed, paid, forgotten, etc. That happend nearly 2000 years ago.

[sheila]

re;  until ye should pay all that was due.        do not any of you be owing one another

  anything[debt/sin]..except to love one another.   the servants imprisonment affliction..etc

   will teach him to have mercy on his brother that he would not forgive the debt of..

   he will learn to love his brother as himself[desire mercy for his brother as well as himself..when

  he find himself in the same place of misery and judgement.

[Seth]

What's due is repentance not actual money. It's a parable. Repentance is worth more than billions, it's priceless.

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:  o'yes..wisdom from above is priceless.....'get understanding"  to turn away frm

  wickedness and the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdm.........

[Seth]

re;  until ye should pay all that was due.        do not any of you be owing one another

  anything[debt/sin]..except to love one another.   the servants imprisonment affliction..etc

   will teach him to have mercy on his brother that he would not forgive the debt of..

   he will learn to love his brother as himself[desire mercy for his brother as well as himself..when

  he find himself in the same place of misery and judgement.

:iagree:

The jailer is sin. Whoever/whatever you seve is your master.

[ed]

Luke 18
24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

So many paradoxes in the Bible.

Talking about Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:16
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Debt and debtor, All things were created by Him and for Him.

:2c:

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  Seth and Ed........

    He who came and paid all our debt/byHis stripes we are healed....He who by the suffering

  and affliction of his soul..shall justify many..and reconcile all things in  heaven and earth....

...HIM WHO SETS YOU FREE...WHO VISITED YOU IN YOUR PRISON WHEN YOU WERE SIN SICK

   HIM WHO BREAKS OPEN THE WAY..THAT THE GATES OF HELL NOT PREVAIL

   PRAISE BE TO GOD! AND GOOD NEWS OF GREAT JOY TO ALL MEN..FOR HE SHALL SAVE

US FROM OUR SIN

[sheila]

 AND NOW,HE WHO COME. AND PAID OFF ALL OUR DEBT..TO SET US FREE FROM SUCH TORMENT AND

   AND IMPRISONMENT AND DEATH..[OF WHICH IF I MAY ADD WOULD HAVE US DIE IN THIS PRISON]

  COMMANDS US TO FREELY FORGIVE ALL MEN AND NEVER BRING SUCH A SENTENCE ON ANY MAN

  AGAIN.[JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED]..OR T EVER CHARGE ANY MAN TO SUCH A SENTENCE AGAIN

    LEST YE BE FOUND AS UNJUST JUDGES...AND GO ON UNTO PERFECTION..AS THE SPIRITS

  OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT[IN UNDERSTANDING]   NO MORE CHEATING PAIR OF SCALES

  WE ARE NOT TO JUDGE ANY SERVANT OF THE LORD'S..JESUS SAID 'I JUDGE NO MAN..BUT IF I

DO JUDGE,MY JUDGEMENT IS TRUE'  HE DOES TELL US WHAT WILL JUDGE MAN...'THESE WORDS

THAT I SPEAK'   FOR HE BOUND UP ALL MEN IN SIN AND DISOBEDIENCE,IN ORDER TO HAVE

MERCY ON ALL......

   

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: :thumbsup:  Excellent..... :iagree:

[Seth]

I don't believe that the parable deals with unbelievers being forgiven, looking closer at it. I think it actually starts with Christians. And the idea that Jesus paid a debt that we cannot repay is an old teaching from Orthodox Christianity, that I believe this parable disproves. We can absolutely owe Jesus for what he did, and I believe it's on a "pay it forward" system.  Jesus doesn't want money. He wants FRUIT. That's why he grafted us onto the tree. And if he doesn't get his fruit, he'll cut down the branch and graft another branch on.

Matthew 18
23 "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.


So he wants to settle accounts with his servants/slaves, which suggests to me that the slaves represent Christians, who are serving his house. The settling of accounts, to me looks like the farmer checking the tree for fruit, and when he finds a servant who owes him, to me it looks like he is saying that the servant was sinful, not producing fruit.

So his Lord pronounces a judgment:

25 But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26 So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.' 27 And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

The judgment was to be SOLD to another master, with his wife and children (the wife, to me symbolizes the carnal mind, and the children the works). This reminds me of "for I am carnal sold into sin." Sometimes people can be the Devil's servant and not even realize it.

But the servant asked forgiveness and the Lord forgives the former debt. That debt is DONE. Forgiven. BUT in doing so, another debt is created and the servant doesn't realize it, though he ought to. The servant owes the Lord forgiveness unto OTHERS, as he was forgiven. That's the new debt. That's the irony: forgiveness of debt creates a debt which must be "payed forward."

32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?' 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

Until he repents and practices forgiveness.

[sheila]

 :thumbsup: Seth...the unbelievers will have to forgive the 'church' for  judging/condemning them to eternal

death..while doling out great measures of grace to themselves..and being so full of hypocrisy.

  self-righteousness;the wars and killing in the name of God,the deceptioons and erronous

doctrines[the saints[church] were overcome.

       the parable of the woman who took leaven and hid it in 3 measures of flour[grace]

   you have..Israel nation/people of special possesion who failed to fulfill the law covenant...

saints overcome...the christian 'saints' overcome[after all we were called out of Babyln

to declare this] who failed to fulfill it/doctrines of men.  this opens the way up for the third

  measure to be leavened....He let the saints be overcome that no flesh boast.[bound us all up

  in disobedience to our covenant with Him

   we called out of Babylon must forgive our forefathers[turn the hearts of the children unto the

fathers] of the church....that taught us these doctrines.

   this also fulfills the he who is first shall be last/least....Israel nation  first..failed..set

aside[last]..christendom beleivers,failed set aside[last]..and the last[unbeleivers that have not

  works of belief] are first asthey did not bear the heat of thesun[last hour vineyard workers]

   the remnant of both Israel's covenant of believers in Christ..seeded the gentiles 'saints....

  also the remnant called ut of Babylon[christendom] seeds the 3rd measure......the few that move

forward serve as a remnant/leavening to the next measure. til ALL is leavened .

   ...if it was not their time,and the calling of God was not clear/but distorted through error

  then it is not counted against them...and they receive fewer stripes/less works of belief