Anyone like to handle this "refutation" against Universal Salvation?

[MinakoChan]

http://www.ovrlnd.com/Universalism/allthealls.html#anchor124944



:laugh:

[Dandelion]

Off the top of my head, I have some things to say.

When Martin Luther, during the Reformation, removed 7 books from the Bible, and tried to remove 11, one of his motivations for doing so was to stop Catholics from giving their hard earned money to Rome, for indulgences. This was the practise of basically buying one's way out of hell. But, in doing this, he removed books which said that we should pray for the dead, in the context that there was still hope for them to change. One of the main sources of this information was the Book of Macabees.

Then, there is this Bible verse:

Romans 8:

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:

"For Your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


As far as the verse that says, "Love Never Fails" in 1 Corinthians 13:8, God is the author of Love. If it never fails, it is due to the fact that He never fails. Anyway you look at it, if love does not fail, then we cannot all go to hell. That would mean that God created us, knowing we were less than other humans and would remain so, for eternity. And, this refutes other verses, such as the one that says He knit us in our mother's womb and we are fearfully and wonderfully made. And, we all know that one of the most glorious things about love is that, in its perfect form, it will never forsake, never leave, never give up, and so on.

These are just some of the points mentioned. Perhaps I will return at another time to sort out some more.

I am sure many of you will jump in and do a super job of helping me out, in the meantime.

D.

[marie glen]

http://www.ovrlnd.com/Universalism/allthealls.html#anchor124944


:laugh:

Oh man... I can never resist these. (Or quizzes!) :gsmile: so I'm off to read..

"refutation" against Universal Salvation -

Would God Be a Failure If All are not Saved?

The question that I have asked of universalists in the past, is if God would be a failure if not all the people He desired to be saved were indeed saved? To those of you who would respond, that yes God would be a failure if He failed to save all those who He wished to save -you are in error. It is an error because the great triumph of the Gospel isn't mans salvation, but that God Himself is justified by succeeding in justifying sinful men! Therefore, if God only succeeded in the salvation of but one disgraceful sinner, then His glory would be sung through the heavens for all eternity!

:mrflo:

sorry but truth be told.. that's all I can say about that..

Called or Chosen

In the past, I have been asked by universalists to differentiate between "called and chosen," To answer, I can go in a number of different directions: Those whom are called include people whom reject the invitation, and thus prove that they are not chosen. That was Spurgeon's argument, a man whom taught that Calvinism should be taught as the Gospel. An Arminian may respond that many are called to work in God's vineyard, but few retain the humility and submission onto God and begin to believe their righteousness is not of God, but of themselves -thus the falling away from the truth. But I tell you that called or chosen is a type because God does not adapt those whom are not his children already. In biblical times a boy was not called a son until he came of age; and then he was proclaimed as his father's son and heir in a ceremony called huiothesia. Therefore, a man may have many boys, but only the sons are chosen as his heirs. Therefore "chosen" is a word of position rather than of relationship. When a man is born again from above he moves from being a potential heir to the household of God to being a heir to the household of God. Thus, the chosen are indeed the "sons of God!" This gift is incomprehensible and the saints shall praise and glorify the Giver of this gift throughout all eternity!

That's interesting about, sons and heirs..  :Chinscratch: but I don't see how it supports e.t. (eternal torture) or e.a. (eternal annihilation, the more merciful than e.t. :smile: )

How Can you Know Your Saved?

There is a great and often overlooked lesson in 1 John 5:11-13, that we may know that we have eternal life: "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (emphasis, mine). To quote Jesus Christ Himself, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Amen! but where, exactly, does it say "believe before death" is the onLy option? Or where does it say "Not all things are possible with God"?

Is it possible For a Person Not to Believe?

The solemn fact remains that it is possible for a doubting man to come to a place where he is unable to believe. In John 12:39 it is declared of certain people that "they could not believe." And in the next verse quoting from several verses from Isaiah, we read, "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." Therefore it is tragically possible for people to trifle with the word of God so long that their hearts become hardened and they are unable to believe. Unfortunately, the world is overflowing of living examples of this.

It is the Holy Spirit who gives us the ability to rightly divide and understand the Scriptures. Therefore, when we study the Bible we need to realize that to properly interpret the word of God we need to pray for God's help. Oftentimes, to understand a difficult passage we do not need more information, but more insight of the facts we already have at hand. This insight comes to us from the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 2:14 and Eph. 1:17-19). Thus, no matter how intelligent we believe ourselves to be, if we do not diligently seek God through prayer during our studies, and approach Him with a repentant humble heart and an understanding mind, we break fellowship with the Lord. If we fail to consider the Lord and His ways, the teachings of Scripture will be misinterpreted and the truths it contains will be disbelieved before the preferences of the human heart which is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (ref. Jer. 17:9). The word of God itself, unless it is believed, becomes a snare in this case, and through it the heart becomes hard and callous. Therfore, it is vital to remember that God never reveals any truth to a man except to have that man obey the truth. If a man goes on believing, God goes on revealing more truths to him -increasing his depth of knowledge and faith. But if a man disbelieves and continues to disbelieve truths when they are presented to him, then the time comes when God no longer reveals truth to him and the eyes of the man are blinded to the truth and his heart is hardened. In 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 we read of "them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." This is solemn language and we all would do well to heed it.

Except for the translation "perish" - I pretty much totally agree with that!

The word written is "apollumi" which includes - " to be ruined, destroyed" - to render this as total annihilation is to go beyond the Word as written.

Were we not, many of us, ruined? before coming to the Lord?

Psalm 37:20  (NKJV)

20 But the wicked shall perish;
And the enemies of the Lord,
Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
Into smoke they shall vanish away.
(apocalypse, individual.. and collective)

And -  there is resurrection of all is there not?

Problems Facing Universalist Theology

Despite the urgings of universalists, a systematic look through the Bible in its entirety reveals that there is not one verse that shows:

1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.

Psalm 22:27

27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall bow down and worship before You.

Here's a good list of some additional verses - http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063

2) The wicked repenting in the after life.

Well, as far as I'm concerned.. let's see.. He was/is the Passover lamb.. the Unleavened Bread in the heart/dust/ground of the earth for 3 nights and days.. was/is the "firstfruit" fulfilling the ancient Spring Holy Days with His first advent. (And the Spirit's coming which He promised came on Day of Pentecost.)

Surely His long 2nd advent will fulfill the ancient Autumn Holy Days of -
1- Trumpets (apocalypse and His return) -

2 - DOA (for the DOA, which "Day Of Atonement" - national and collective day of repentance and reconciliation, a day of weeping and gnashing of teeth to all different degrees.. 'day' of judgment for all those of the "2nd resurrection after the thousand years"/millenium of Jesus, for all those who "died still in their sins" so are dead on arrival (doa) -

3 - Tabernacles - `Lo, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God." Rev 21:3

Between Trumpets and DOA - 10 days / 1000 years. Between DOA and Tabernacles - 5 days / 500 years(?)

1 Corinthians 15:22-28New King James Version (NKJV)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father" (Tabernacles!) "when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.

Please see answer number one :smile:

4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.

Universal Reconciliation - 3 r's (universal) repentance - reconciliation - restoration - sometimes referred to as Christian Universalism, does not believe DOJ will be avoided

5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life.
6) The wicked getting out of the lake of fire.
7) The wicked getting their names written back into the book of life.

Imagine yourself an unbeliever, and you experience being resurrected out of your grave. Will you still not "believe"? And thus mourn and repent? What does it require to have ones' name written in the Book of Life? - Belief. 'Day' Of Judgement, wherein "it will be more tolerable on day of judgment for those of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.." and "the queen of the sought will rise up on day of judgment and condemn this generation.." And wherein surely all of human history will be very much examined and reviewed..? Surely!? Where do we get this idea God All Powerful will simply wake up all those not (yet) saved, including those who never (ever) heard the saving gospel, and merely dump them into torturous flames?

The Bibles we read come from a long line. What once were scrolls written in Hebrew, and words spoken in Aramaic went through the Greek language and were likely Hellenized like most other things. Then there was the Latin. So the Hebrew "sheol" where there was "neither doing nor thought" became first "hades" a "place of the dead" and then "inferno". Then came Signor Dante with his entertaining tales. (In the 1300's.) This was after some Norse tribes had brought into the lands their slant on an afterlife, named Helheim, shortened to Hel. And then of course came along (1600's) good King James. Whose heart was may have been in the right place, but the translation followed centuries of conditioning..

8) Nor can we find anywhere that God repents of His judgment on the wicked in the afterlife or that His judgment is anything short of final and fixed for all eternity.

...We cannot see what we've been taught not to see.. The Bibles we read come from a long line. What once were scrolls written in Hebrew, and words spoken in Aramaic --- went through the Greek language and were likely Hellenized like most other things.

Then there was the Latin. So the Hebrew "sheol" where there was "neither doing nor thought" became first "hades" a "place of the dead"

and then "inferno". Then came Signor Dante with his entertaining tales. (In the 1300's.)

This was after some Norse tribes had brought into the lands their slant on an afterlife, named Helheim, shortened to Hel.

And then of course came along (1600's) good King James. Whose heart may have been in the right place, but the translation followed centuries of conditioning.

1 Timothy 4:10 - "God is the savior of all"
John 32:12 - "If I be lifted up from the Earth I will draw all to me" - italicized words in a verse indicate words added to the text by the translators.
     :Peace2: :2c: :cloud9:

[marie glen]

Off the top of my head, I have some things to say.

When Martin Luther, during the Reformation, removed 7 books from the Bible, and tried to remove 11, one of his motivations for doing so was to stop Catholics from giving their hard earned money to Rome, for indulgences. This was the practise of basically buying one's way out of hell. But, in doing this, he removed books which said that we should pray for the dead, in the context that there was still hope for them to change. One of the main sources of this information was the Book of Macabees.

Then, there is this Bible verse:

Romans 8:

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:

"For Your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


As far as the verse that says, "Love Never Fails" in 1 Corinthians 13:8, God is the author of Love. If it never fails, it is due to the fact that He never fails. Anyway you look at it, if love does not fail, then we cannot all go to hell. That would mean that God created us, knowing we were less than other humans and would remain so, for eternity. And, this refutes other verses, such as the one that says He knit us in our mother's womb and we are fearfully and wonderfully made. And, we all know that one of the most glorious things about love is that, in its perfect form, it will never forsake, never leave, never give up, and so on.

These are just some of the points mentioned. Perhaps I will return at another time to sort out some more.

I am sure many of you will jump in and do a super job of helping me out, in the meantime.

D.

That's interesting about Macabees.. though there is one verse, Paul wrote, referring to prayers for the dead.. Very interesting!!

Lately, what I've been noticing is our Lord's sermon on the mount(ain).. how He said we should "be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect.." All the "turn the other cheek".. "love your enemies".. "greet not only those of your own type,even the gentiles/heathen do that! but you are to be perfect as your Father.."

So I've been thinking, if all those things - "forgive those who trespass against you" etc, are to become part of our character, then surely all of it is a mere reflection of all those things which are in His character!

Of course then someone will say part of His character is Judgment.. which of course it is! But isn't there a verse that says "mercy triumphs over judgment" - I googled "verse that says mercy triumphs.." to find the verse - it's James 2:13, "For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment." Ultimately, mercy trumps judgment? (In all cases! :banana: "With God all things are possible"!)

Nice post D! (as always!) :gsmile:

[eaglesway]

"Any return after death is, however, clearly denied by Hebrews 9:27." Hobart E Freeman, Every Wind of Doctrine, p. 146

This is the last line in the article and it is typical of the mindset that gets entrenched in people.

Hebrews 9.27 by no means prohibits anything related to UR. It simple states that we die once, and then judgment comes after. What that judgment is, the nature of it, the consequences of it, the final outworking of it, are not adressed in anyway by the verse, and being so undefined, cannot be limited in the way the writer limits it, seeing that it is contextually addressed to the resurrection of believers at His appearing- not the eventual fate of the rest of the dead or the nature of their judgment.

Hebrews 9:27

"And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

[sheila]

 :2c:  really it is not so much would God  be afailure..as much as WOULD SATAN WIN/ DEFEAT GOD?

    He that is in you is greater than he that is in the world[prince of this world]


   many are called..by lying spirits,false christs,anti-christs,denominations and men...but few are chosen by God

   and actually sent forth to preach/prophesy of Him.


   Peace and goodwill unto ALL MEN>>>>UNTO YOU{ALL MEN} A SON IS GIVEN/we HAVE the SON

   How can you believe which receive honour one of another..and seek not the honour that come from God only?

   Man that is in honor,and understands not...is like the beasts that perish[my people perish from lack of

knowledge of me the one true God] if you know Him you know you all receive the free gift of eternal life..[son].

   if ye believe ye will never die..and even if ye die..ye will live.


  re;judgement...without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy[OT law covenant and offspring of vipers

that sit in Moses seat] satan Michael in dispute over Moses body...........covering cherub[judge law] until

iniquity was found in you.  They condemned under law an innocent man..that was the offspring of

viper/serpents..iniquity.  He was warned if he lifted Jesus up..Jesus would draw all men unto himself......

  [through one man sin entered/also through the obedience of one man]

  the Lord rebuked him...[who will save you from...get behind me satan....man does not live by bread alone

..thou shalt not tempt the Lord God.....unto God alone do we worship]


  BEHOLD!  THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKES AWAY ALL THEIR SIN[are you judging by appearance of the flesh,perhaps?]

  Until He reveals...that wicked one..that man of lawlessness to you..you can not understand His judgement

  of the wicked one He delivers us all  from..;nor understand

  your[all men's] salvation[therefore judge nothing before the appointed time] unless we presume to judge

by appearance of the flesh.......

[marie glen]

"Any return after death is, however, clearly denied by Hebrews 9:27." Hobart E Freeman, Every Wind of Doctrine, p. 146

This is the last line in the article and it is typical of the mindset that gets entrenched in people.

Hebrews 9.27 by no means prohibits anything related to UR. It simple states that we die once, and then judgment comes after. What that judgment is, the nature of it, the consequences of it, the final outworking of it, are not adressed in anyway by the verse, and being so undefined, cannot be limited in the way the writer limits it, seeing that it is contextually addressed to the resurrection of believers at His appearing- not the eventual fate of the rest of the dead or the nature of their judgment.

Hebrews 9:27

"And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

Amen.. 'they' go further than the verses.. and the translators so often seem to choose the most extreme use of words when translating (not to mention those thoroughly inaccurate word  translations).

[eaglesway]

Exactly.

[lduebel]

I really appreciate pointing out the fact that "perish" has been criminalized and taken to mean eternal damnation.  The actual use of the term is more like spilt milk or spoiled meat that can no longer be used for its intended purpose.  We are members of the Kingdom of Christ and as citizens in that kingdom we are expected to be useful.  The Jews learned this the hard way because they were chosen as God's People to show His love to the world.  Instead of fulfilling their purpose they settled on a works-based religion that was spoiled for its intended purpose. Go and do NOT likewise!

[WhiteWings]

The actual use of the term is more like spilt milk or spoiled meat that can no longer be used for its intended purpose.

I think 'temporarily' should be the last word in that quote.
Perish/apollumi can be understood/used in several  way and combining them all gives a fuller meaning of the word.

Click here

[marie glen]

I really appreciate pointing out the fact that "perish" has been criminalized and taken to mean eternal damnation.  The actual use of the term is more like spilt milk or spoiled meat that can no longer be used for its intended purpose.  We are members of the Kingdom of Christ and as citizens in that kingdom we are expected to be useful.  The Jews learned this the hard way because they were chosen as God's People to show His love to the world.  Instead of fulfilling their purpose they settled on a works-based religion that was spoiled for its intended purpose. Go and do NOT likewise!

The actual use of the term is more like spilt milk or spoiled meat that can no longer be used for its intended purpose.

I think 'temporally' should be the last word in that quote.
Perish/apollumi can be understood/used in several  way and combining them all gives a fuller meaning of the word.

Click here

Amen! The translators just seem to love to pick and choose the most extreme use of words! (What's up with that? :dunno: I don't get it!)

"expected to be useful." - amen, like the branches.. not attached to the vine.. dry up.. only good to be gathered as firewood.. Or if the salt has lost its savor - preserving quality? Not good.

And! those Pharisees, not only not being useful (to the Kingdom).. they were blocking the way from others entering! :faint: oh brother. how low can we go..? ("if they will do this in a green leaf" (crucify Him) "what will they do in a dry leaf?" Lk 23:28,31)

[GodIsLove]

The actual use of the term is more like spilt milk or spoiled meat that can no longer be used for its intended purpose.

I think 'temporally' should be the last word in that quote.
Perish/apollumi can be understood/used in several  way and combining them all gives a fuller meaning of the word.

Click here

Great link WW!

[MHz]

http://www.ovrlnd.com/Universalism/allthealls.html#anchor124944



:laugh:

Problems Facing Universalist Theology

"Despite the urgings of universalists, a systematic look through the Bible in its entirety reveals that there is not one verse that shows:

    1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.
    2) The wicked repenting in the after life.
    3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.
    4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.
    5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life.
    6) The wicked getting out of the lake of fire.
    7) The wicked getting their names written back into the book of life.
    8) Nor can we find anywhere that God repents of His judgment on the wicked in the afterlife or that His judgment is anything short of final and fixed for all eternity."

Quick answer, all of them could be expanded on. If the other headlines need an explanation there is one for them also.

1. The ones sent to hell and appear at Judgment Day. Hebrews:12 shows it is about chastisement and forgiveness rather than chastisement and more punishment Isaiah:65 is only about the ones called 'the rest' and they go to hell and in the new earth verses they are building houses outside of the walls of New Jerusalem.

2. The ones that die enter the grave and go to sleep. Job:14 explains that they are sleeping and then they are woken up after all wrath is past. For the 1,000 year crowd it is Jesus killing all sinners by pouring out the 7 vials in a few hours. He melts 1 city in the process. The ones that are woken up at judgment day is right after God sends the remaining fallen angels to the fiery lake and in the process melts the planet to the same extreme as Sodom was burned. Isaiah:14 is those men and they are said to be mocking Lucifer and that is nobody but Satan when he is chained up and in hell. The men also have a locked gate between then and the fallen angels to the mocking is helped by God and that is how they repent. That they remain locked up when Satan and the others are released means they cannot be tempted to sin again.

3. The chastisement and forgiveness they get in Hebrews:12 results in them becoming like this. The Lamb is specific to the GWT even and that is when great tribulation ends, it begins when He returns as kills 2/3of the people alive on the planet

Revelation:7:9-17:
After this I beheld,
and,
lo,
a great multitude,
which no man could number,
of all nations,
and kindreds,
and people, and tongues,
stood before the throne,
and before the Lamb,
clothed with white robes,
and palms in their hands;
And cried with a loud voice,
saying,
Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne,
and unto the Lamb.
And all the angels stood round about the throne,
and about the elders and the four beasts,
and fell before the throne on their faces,
and worshipped God,
Saying,
Amen:
Blessing,
and glory,
and wisdom,
and thanksgiving,
and honour,
and power,
and might,
be unto our God for ever and ever.
men.
And one of the elders answered,
saying unto me,
What are these which are arrayed in white robes?
and whence came they?
And I said unto him,
Sir,
thou knowest.
And he said to me,
These are they which came out of great tribulation,
and have washed their robes,
and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Therefore are they before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple:
and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
They shall hunger no more,
neither thirst any more;
neither shall the sun light on them,
nor any heat.
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them,
and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters:
and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

4.  Hebrews:9:27:
And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgment:

Isaiah:28:17-19:
Judgment also will I lay to the line,
and righteousness to the plummet:
and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies,
and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled,
and your agreement with hell shall not stand;
when the overflowing scourge shall pass through,
then ye shall be trodden down by it.
From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you:
for morning by morning shall it pass over,
by day and by night:
and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.

5. The 12 tribes are the first to be gathered and anybody gathered goes through the same process.

Ezekiel:37:21-24:
And say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold,
I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen,
whither they be gone,
and will gather them on every side,
and bring them into their own land:
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel;
and one king shall be king to them all:
and they shall be no more two nations,
neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Neither
shall they defile themselves any more with their idols,
nor with their detestable things,
nor with any of their transgressions:
but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces,
wherein they have sinned,
and will cleanse them:
so shall they be my people,
and I will be their God.

This is the same event.

Ezekiel:39:25:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD;
Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob,
and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel,
and will be jealous for my holy name;
After that they have borne their shame,
and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me,
when they dwelt safely in their land,
and none made them afraid.
When I have brought them again from the people,
and gathered them out of their enemies' lands,
and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God,
which cause them to be led into captivity among the heathen:
but I have gathered them unto their own land,
and have left none of them any more there.
Neither will I hide my face any more from them:
for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel,
saith the Lord GOD.
And David my servant shall be king over them;
and they all shall have one shepherd:
they shall also walk in my judgments,
and observe my statutes,
and do them.

The last people to obey the last few lines is the GWT group.

6. Only the fallen angels are sent to the fiery lake and it is escape proof.

7. All names of all flesh have their names entered into the book of life. The book is opened after the vials have killed and the names of the people that will be alive for the 1,000 years and it is closed until judgment Day and then it is opened and the rest of the names are read out. You can delay your gathering you cannot get your name erased from the book of life. The fallen angels are still aware of where they are when they are in the lake so even their names are still in the book of life.

8. It is New Jerusalem in the verses below.

Isaiah:65:16-19:
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;
because the former troubles are forgotten,
and because they are hid from mine eyes.
For,
behold,
I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered,
nor come into mind.
But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create:
for,
behold,
I create Jerusalem a rejoicing,
and her people a joy.
And I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
and joy in my people:
and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her,
nor the voice of crying.

Revelation:21:1-7:
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth:
for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;
and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city,
new Jerusalem,
coming down from God out of heaven,
prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,
Behold,
the tabernacle of God is with men,
and he will dwell with them,
and they shall be his people,
and God himself shall be with them,
and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
and there shall be no more death,
neither sorrow,
nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away.
And he that sat upon the throne said,
Behold,
I make all things new.
And he said unto me,
Write:
for these words are true and faithful.
And he said unto me,
It is done.
I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end.
I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God,
and he shall be my son.

[darryl]

God's will, His purpose (the Greek word in 2 Peter 3:9 means 'purpose') , is that NONE perish but all come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9) ....the Bible says God always 'actions' and carries out His purposes .

Daniel 4:35
"All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'

Job 23:13
"But He is unique and who can turn Him? And what His soul desires, that He does". ..

therefore, God WILL  get what He wants, what He purposes, and ALL, ultimately, will come to repentance and be saved that God may be ALL in ALL.

[MHz]

His will works out for the better by the time the new earth verses are happening. Getting there is not a painless process or resurrections would not be needed to be alive in the 1,000 year era.

The 12 Tribes have a roller-coaster ride before they are all safely alive in Israel after all sinners on the globe are dead. The scattering prophecy made by Moses has a reduction in numbers and that is where the 144,000 come into play. They are the only members of the 12 Tribes that are alive on the day of the return. The term (beheaded) for the word of God is a reference to a prophecy made in the OT that has to be fulfilled in full.

Ezekiel:39:22:
So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:
because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them,
and gave them into the hand of their enemies:
so fell they all by the sword.
According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them,
and hid my face from them.

[darryl]

is the will of a person to reject God stronger than the will of God to save that person ?...i think not.

[darryl]

....Hence, Ephesians 2:7 isn't speaking of multiple ages that take place in the coming kingdom of God in the after life as the universalists must have occur to support their unscriptural position of purgatory...........
. The universalists insist that the next age is also finite to support their doctrine of purgatory.

since when do we believe in 'purgatory' ?.........I sure dont...I do believe ALL things are possible with God including saving and redeeming people post- mortem......how God will do it,I cannot exactly say.....but I dont believe the post- mortem salvation process is 'purgatory' if that means people pay for their own sins thru some kind of fiery punishment.

[MHz]

is the will of a person to reject God stronger than the will of God to save that person ?...i think not.

Saul's conversion would be a good example of how the struggle turns out, . . .  every time.

[darryl]

is the will of a person to reject God stronger than the will of God to save that person ?...i think not.

Saul's conversion would be a good example of how the struggle turns out, . . .  every time.

yup.... :thumbsup: