There's an article that states that early chruch fathers were not universalists!

[B_T]

It quotes the following:

Originally Posted by The Church Fathers

Ignatius of Antioch
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).

Second Clement
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, 'There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!'" (ibid., 17:7).

Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).

"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).

Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).

Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).

Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181]).

Irenaeus
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,' they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).

Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).

"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).

Hippolytus
"Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: 'Just is your judgment!' And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).

Minucius Felix
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).

Cyprian of Carthage
"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).

Lactantius
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).

As for Ignatius of Antioch, if he was indeed a student of Apostle John, then we should revise our opinion and should accept that early church fathers including the apostles actually believed in Eternal Torment!

[Shadow]

Here is part of a chapter from a .pdf file I downloaded yesterday called

UNCONDITIONAL IMMORTALITY

OR

RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD

Is "The Wages Of Sin Death"

Or

"Eternal Life With Torment In Hell"

William Robert West

An Immortal Soul and the Doctrine of Hell

What the Bible does not say about Hell

This is what the early church fathers believed

[29] CHURCH FATHERS: The early so-called church fathers, Clement of Rome [said to be a companion of Paul], Ignatius [killed 107], Theophilus [died 181], Justin Martyr [killed 166], Tatian, Irenaeus, and others of the second century writers believed in conditional immortality. It was not unto the end the second and the third century that the doctrine of an immortal soul gained a foothold in the church. J. A. Beeth summed it up very well. "The phrase, the soul immortal, so frequent and conspicuous in the writings of Plato, we have not found in pre-Christian literature outside the influence of Greek philosophy; nor have we found it in Christian literature until the latter part of the second century. We have noticed that all the earliest Christian writers who use this phrase were familiar with the teaching of Plato; that one of these, Tertullian, expressly refers both the phrase and doctrine to him; and that the early Christian writers never support this doctrine by appeals to the Bible, but only by arguments similar to those of Plato...We have failed to find any trace of this doctrine in the Bible...It is altogether alien, both in phrase and thought, to the teaching of Christ and His apostles." Immortality Of The Soul, Pages 53, 54. Tertullian is truthful about where his belief came from and said he based it on Plato, not the Bible. He said, "For some things are known even by nature: the immortality of the soul, for instance, is held by many...I may use, therefore, the opinion of a Plato, when he declares, 'Every soul is immortal'" Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 3, Page 1916.

JUSTIN MARTYR: Killed about A. D. 166. The Greek doctrine of an immortal soul was believed by some in his time and opposed by him and others of the Church Fathers. He says, "For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this...who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians." The First Apology Of Justin, Edinburgh Edition, Page 480.

IRENAEUS MARTYR: Died about A. D. 202, a pupil of Polycarp, Martyr A. D. 147 said, "It is the Father of all who IMPART CONTINUANCE FOREVER AND EVER TO THOSE WHO ARE SAVED. FOR LIFE DOES NOT ARISE FROM US, NOR FROM OUR OWN NATURE; but it is bestowed according to the grace of God. And therefore he who shall preserve the life bestowed on him, and give thanks to Him who imparted it, SHALL RECEIVE ALSO LENGTH OF DAYS FOREVER AND EVER, But he who shall reject it, and prove himself ungrateful to his Maker, inasmuch as he has been created and has not recognized Him who bestowed the gift upon him, DEPRIVES HIMSELF OF CONTINUANCE FOREVER AND EVER. And for this reason the Lord declared to those who showed themselves ungrateful towards Him: 'If you have not been faithful in that which is little, who will give you that which is great?'--indicating that those who in this brief temporal life have shown themselves ungrateful to Him who bestowed it, SHALL JUSTLY NOT RECEIVE FROM HIM LENGTH OF DAYS FOREVER AND EVER." Edinburgh Edition, Volume 1, Page 252.

ORIGEN Died A. D. 235: Mosheim says, "The foundation of all his faults was, that he fully believed nothing to be more true and certain than what the philosophy he received from Ammonius taught him respecting God, the world, souls, demons, etc. and therefore he in a measure recast and remolded the doctrines of Christ after the pattern of that philosophy." Historical Commentaries, Volume 2, Page 159.

The early non-inspired writers used Bible statements, which are used by both sides. Two examples:

   1. An example: When an early writer quoted Matthew 10:28, "God is able to destroy...soul [psukee]"; it is used today by the unconditional immoralists to prove the church fathers believed God will not destroy the soul [psukee], and by the conditional immoralists to prove the church fathers did believe God can and will destroy the soul [psukee]. Both sides assume that the early non-inspired writers understood the word "soul" [psukee] and other words just as they do. Therefore, both sides have many quotations from the early writers. The first and second century writers used Greek, and the word they used was "psukee" not the English word "soul" but the unconditional immoralists translate it "soul" and then apply today's English meaning, an undying part of a person to "psukee." Conditional immoralists read the same writers and say the early writers used "psukee" as the Hebrew word "nehphesh" is used in Genesis, a "living creature."
   2. Another example: When Matthew 5:22 is quoted by the church father, they wrote in Greek and used "Gehenna" just as Christ did. Some English translations of the church fathers change Gehenna into Hell. They change one proper noun, the name if a particular place [Gehenna] into another proper noun, the name of another particular place [Hell] just as the King James Version did. When the early writers used "Gehenna," the way they are translated or the way they are mistranslated makes them say what the translator wanted them to say.

THE VIEW OF THE CHURCH FATHER ON DEATH according to Henry Constable in "The Duration And Nature Of Future Punishment," 1871.

    * Barnabas, Died A. D. 90. Believed the penalty of sin is ETERNAL DEATH.
    * Clemens Romanus, Died A. D. 100. Believed the penalty of sin is ETERNAL DEATH.
    * Hermas, Died A. D. 104. Believed the penalty of sin is ETERNAL DEATH.
    * Ignatius, Martyr, Died A. D. 107. Believed the penalty of sin is ETERNAL DEATH.
    * Polycarp, Martyr, Died A. D. 147. Believed the penalty of sin is ETERNAL DEATH.
    * Justin Martyr, Died A. D. 164. Believed the penalty of sin is ETERNAL DEATH.
    * Theophilus of Antioch, Died A. D. 183. Believed the penalty of sin is ETERNAL DEATH.
    * Athenagoras, Died A. D. 190. Believed "YOU SHALL NOT SURELY DIE."
    * Tatian, Died A.D. 200. Believed "YOU SHALL NOT SURELY DIE."
    * Irenaeus Martyr, Died A. D. 202. Believed the penalty of sin is ETERNAL DEATH.
    * Clemens Alexandrinus, Died A. D. 212. Believed the penalty of sin is ETERNAL DEATH.
    * Tertullian, Died A. D. 235. Believed "YOU SHALL NOT SURELY DIE."
    * Hippolytus, Died A. D. 235. Believed "YOU SHALL NOT SURELY DIE."
    * Origen, Died A. D. 235. Believed UNIVERSAL RESTORATION.
    * Amobios, Died A. D. 303. Believed the penalty of sin is ETERNAL DEATH.
    * Augustine, Died A. D. 430. Believed "YOU SHALL NOT SURELY DIE." The Encyclopedia Britannica says of Augustine, "He fused the religion of the New Testament with the Platonic tradition of Greek philosophy."

From the above, it is clear that it was not unto near the end of the second century that "the wages of sin is eternal life with torment" was first believed. By teaching the resurrection, both the Bible and most of the early Church Fathers denied emphatically the unconditional immortally of the soul.

ETERNAL DEATH = ANNIHILATION
YOU SHALL NOT SURELY DIE = ETERNAL TORMENT
UNIVERSAL RESTORATION = UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[B_T]

So according to your document the prevailing doctrine in the first centuries was annihilationism, not universal restoration...

[WhiteWings]

Hi Shadow,

Can you please post a link to the pdf document?


/EDIT

http://robertwr.com/

[Shadow]

Hi Shadow,

Can you please post a link to the pdf document?

Here is the link

http://www.robertwr.com/resurrection.pdf

So according to your document the prevailing doctrine in the first centuries was annihilationism, not universal restoration...

It seems so, as much as I'd like to believe in Universal Salvation, with the amount of study I've done, I'm  closest to leaning towards annihilation as being the truth, still annihilation although not nearly as good as Universal Salvation is far preferable to the doctrine of Eternal Torment

I do NOT like the ET docrine and will not embrace it although I may have to accept it if it's true,and have been researching both Annihilation and Universal Salvation, I can't stop thinking about ET it is so horrific and although there may be people I don't like, I would hate for them to go through this fate, my only prayer is that ET isn't true( I wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy, as I said before I hate this doctrine, it has caused me much misery and sleepless nights

[B_T]

I think that annihilation is not a biblical doctrine.

Annihilationists, I think, tend to ignore the word "apollumi" which is translated as perish, lost, destruction. as for this:

I'm  closest to leaning towards annihilation as being the truth, still annihilation although not nearly as good as Universal Salvation is far preferable to the doctrine of Eternal Torment

This clearly contradicts with the bible verse that states that the gospel (good news) will bring joy to all people. There's no bad news in the gospel. Also, annihilationism has the same problems as the Eternal torment - predestination, free will, the human fate will be tragic...

[Shadow]

I think that annihilation is not a biblical doctrine.

Annihilationists, I think, tend to ignore the word "apollumi" which is translated as perish, lost, destruction. as for this:

I'm  closest to leaning towards annihilation as being the truth, still annihilation although not nearly as good as Universal Salvation is far preferable to the doctrine of Eternal Torment

This clearly contradicts with the bible verse that states that the gospel (good news) will bring joy to all people. There's no bad news in the gospel. Also, annihilationism has the same problems as the Eternal torment - predestination, free will, the human fate will be tragic...

appollumi also means to destroy fully

Mat 10:28  `And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

YLT

I'm still learning, hopefully you are right :icon_flower: (I am so confused) :mshock:

May I refer you to another thread which also talks about annihilation vs ET

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/5862/hell2.html

[arcticmonster2003]

I remember several months back, when I believed in UR, that while trying to convince someone about UR at mychurch.org, another universalist jumped in to help me convince them, telling the person I was trying to convince that if they wouldn't believe me (arcticmonster2003) that perhaps they would give Irenaeus some respect on the matter, and then he listed a quote from Irenaeus, from the book, Against Heresies Book 1, namely, that all flesh of the whole human race will be raised anew and every knee would bow. I was so happy, and we seemed to make a good case together for that person that universalism was the truth..... :sigh: it was only recently (about two weeks ago) that I read the whole context of "all flesh of the whole human race being raised anew" and "every knee shall bow" in that book, and, after reading the entire chapter, I think it very important not to just single out those 2 phrases, but to hear everything Irenaeus was saying. Here is the part of that book I'm talking about (please note the bold parts), and it, taken in full context, does most certainly speaks of ALL FLESH OF THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE being raised anew, it also most certainly says that EVERY knee shall bow, but then, it says the judgement will occur......when, well, read it for yourselves...

quote from Irenaeus, Against Heresies Book 1

Chapter X.—Unity of the faith of the Church throughout the whole world.
1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth,
has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father
Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ
Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who
proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a
virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the
flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father "to gather all things in one,"and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human
race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will
of the invisible Father, "every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things
under the earth, and that every tongue should confess" to Him, and that He should execute just
judgment towards all; that He may send "spiritual wickednesses," and the angels who transgressed
and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among
men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous,
and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some
from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and
may surround them with everlasting glory.

(true story)

[B_T]

does most certainly speaks of ALL FLESH OF THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE being raised anew, it also most certainly says that EVERY knee shall bow, but then, it says the judgement will occur......when, well, read it for yourselves...

I think that all universalists admit that there will be strict judgement. The unrighteous will enter aionios kolasis

[Craig]

The constant fallacy of either/or, keeps popping up in this.

So let me just state it for clarity. There are only three "Christian" conclusions concerning soteriology, which were taught by the church. 1. Universal Salvation 2. Annihilation 3. Perpetual Punishment. Any other idea, is foreign to Christian thought. There is no re-incarnation, there is no change into angels, etc. So when you have early church fathers who believed in Annihilation, that is because there is a Christian School which taught it, and they are from that school of thought. If they were taught Perpetual Punishment, that is because there is a Christian School which taught it, and they are from that school of thought and if some taught Universal Salvation, that is because there was a Christian School that taught it, and they were from that school of thought.

The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge states, "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist; one (Ephesus) accepted conditional mortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked."

So the truth is, some early church fathers believed in universalism, some believed in annihilation, and some believed in perpetual punishment. It is a constant fallacy to use appeal to authority, when the authority was split on the issue.

[Craig]

does most certainly speaks of ALL FLESH OF THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE being raised anew, it also most certainly says that EVERY knee shall bow, but then, it says the judgement will occur......when, well, read it for yourselves...

I think that all universalists admit that there will be strict judgement. The unrighteous will enter aionios kolasis

Indeed there is a constant problem of simplicity in which a person who believes in Universalism ignores or says there is no judgment for the wicked.

Keith DeRose, Professor of Philosophy, Yale University says. "As I've stressed, universalism itself does not rule out that there will be punishment for some after death.  Indeed, it does not rule out that there will be a lot of punishment for some."

As I said before, universalism is not at odds with mainstream Christian doctrine, it only states that there the duration of seperation, punishment, and so forth is not perpetual in nature.

[Craig]

My suggestion is to read exactly what these fathers of the church view of soteriology (actually thoughts on salvation)

Ignatius of Antioch regarded salvation as one being free from the powerful fear of death and thus to bravely face martyrdom. He also believed that the Eucharist (bread and wine) was actually the literal flesh and blood of Jesus Christ and what he called, "Medicine of Immortality" and those who did not participate in it, were lost and dying in their sins even if they were martyred for their belief in Christ.

Remember what Ignatius thought salvation was, he thought it was being free from the fear of death and looking forward to a bloody and gruesome martyring. So when he says, "Corrupter's of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).

It is a completely different picture than what even mainstream Christianity teaches. According to Ignatius, the unquenchable fire is the fear of death.

Who were these corrupters?

Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes. — Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1

Or was he talking about those who prevented the martyrs?

"I am writing to all the Churches and I enjoin all, that I am dying willingly for God's sake, if only you do not prevent it. I beg you, do not do me an untimely kindness. Allow me to be eaten by the beasts, which are my way of reaching to God. I am God's wheat, and I am to be ground by the teeth of wild beasts, so that I may become the pure bread of Christ." — Letter to the Romans

It is one thing to use an early church father as an appeal to authority in regards to what you believe, but I highly doubt many who use Ignatius for their defense of perpetual punishment in fact even agree with him concerning salvation.

[martincisneros]

These two books are rich in evidence that the early Church Fathers were Universalists:

Christ Triumphant

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years (and showing the influence of Greek Mythology and pagan philosophy on Christian Doctrine) With Authorities and Extracts By J.W. HANSON, D.D.

There's lots of other books documenting this kind of stuff THOROUGHLY.  They just don't happen to be online yet.  You could sooner prove that they were all chain smokers than to try to say that the predominant view back then was either ET or conditional mortality.


Hacking my own post for a second to say that the above titles that I've listed are actually working links that you can click on to go to the books.

[pneuma]

Hi BT, there are a few problems with quoting the church fathers.

First what the earliest ones such as Ignatius of Antioch wrote most likely in Greek as it was the common tongue of the time. So when we read things like these will be consigned to eternal torment we are reading a English translation of what was written in Greek.
So things may not be as they at first look. If we looked up the what Ignatius said in the Greek it may very well have been these will be consigned to aionous torment. Thus changing the whole thought of what Ignatius was really saying.

Also if it actually does say eternal this still creates a problem for eternal was used in both senses of limited and unlimited duration in the early periods of church history.

What one has to do then is look up what the person quoted believed concerning eternal, if they are constantly using it to mean without end it more then likely is that they believed in eternal torment as most of the churches today believe. But if they use it after both fashions then when eternal is used we must go through their works and see how they use it in each instance, unless of course they specifically state how they use the word.

There is nothing wrong with quoting someone but it can cause misunderstanding.

Example: I believe in eternal torment.
Now if someone took that statement and quoted me it would look like I was saying eternal torment was without end or I agreed with the doctrine of today concerning ET.
But that is not really what I said even though at first reading it may look that way.
But if someone took the time to look up what I believe concerning the word eternal (aionous) in the Greek they would understand that what I was saying was that I believe in aionous (which is always used in a limited time period) torment, or torment for a limited time period.

Thus understanding the way I view eternal torment changes the whole thought of what I really said.

[pneuma]

appollumi also means to destroy fully

Hi shadow I agree that appollumi also means to fully destroy.

The difference being I do not see it as the total destruction of man, but rather the total destruction of the man I once was ie. The old man.

And when it is realised that the appollumi is concerning the old man, scripture literally screams universal salvation. 

[Craig]

I agree Pneuma,

That is a point which I was going to cover with 2 Clement, which was actually written anonymously. Just by what was posted, it cannot be ascertained whether the author believed in perpetual or limited punishment. If we go by the purity of Greek, it would be limited in duration. There is so much revelation just based on the words people used, like aionios was used and not aidos. The lie, which many in ET use to support aionios as perpetual is that there was no word for perpetual or everlasting so they used aionios. For although I knew this was wrong prior to my knowledge of why, the knowledge of why was exposed when the word aidos was used in Scripture. Of course, aidos, not aionios, means what we today call 'eternal'.

[pneuma]

I agree Pneuma,

That is a point which I was going to cover with 2 Clement, which was actually written anonymously. Just by what was posted, it cannot be ascertained whether the author believed in perpetual or limited punishment. If we go by the purity of Greek, it would be limited in duration. There is so much revelation just based on the words people used, like aionios was used and not aidos. The lie, which many in ET use to support aionios as perpetual is that there was no word for perpetual or everlasting so they used aionios. For although I knew this was wrong prior to my knowledge of why, the knowledge of why was exposed when the word aidos was used in Scripture. Of course, aidos, not aionios, means what we today call 'eternal'.

:thumbsup:

[james.goetz]

Schaff/Night noted that four of six known Early Church schools were universalists. This implies that universalism was a debatable issue in the Early Church.

George T. Night, "Universalists", New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. XII: Trench – Zwingli, ed. S. M. Jackson, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1950), 96.

[DeeDee]

Schaff/Night noted that four of six known Early Church schools were universalists. This implies that universalism was a debatable issue in the Early Church.

George T. Night, "Universalists", New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. XII: Trench – Zwingli, ed. S. M. Jackson, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1950), 96.

Four out of six is very good IMO. Isn't everything in life debatable? People have proof of God yet does everyone believe in Him?

The reason I am posting on this old thread is because the threads title is classic of what I have been talking about and thinking about lately. For ever positive thing in the world or for every proof there will be three things back to make it negative or disprove it. Can't people just get over themselves and let well enough alone. Can't they stop interferring with the truth so that all the poor tortured souls of the world can actually see what is right and what is wrong and not be confused all the time. Whether people corrupt the truth for the sake of money, pride or other selfish reasons is unknown to me, but one thing is certain, all those who corrupt truths and try and block facts the day will come that they have to pay penance for it.

Dee

[Texas Son]

Being new to UR I am being blessed by reading Scripture in a whole new light (Light).

Romans 5:10 (NASB) says "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled we shall be saved by His life."

The first part says that even apart from our faith, Christ had already reconciled us to God. He broke the curse of being spiritually dead to God (ref. I Corinthians 15:22). This however does not mean we have yet entered the Body of Christ.

The second part of the verse says "much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life". Until we receive Christ we are not saved, (meaning the body of sin done away with). By receiving Him in this life we enter into His death, burial and resurrected life, (Romans 6). Those that do not receive or believe in Christ while in this mortal body will go into ages destruction of their flesh. It will be unpleasant to be sure because they have not received the work that Christ had done for them in this life.

Let me point out that my reading of Scripture above is certainly open for review as I am only now beginning to be blessed in my new walk in UR.   :Sparkletooth:

[Tony N]

appollumi also means to destroy fully

In the quote below, lost and destroy use the same Greek word apollumi.

"Apollumi is used of that which is alive. If the lost destroyed sheep (Luke 15:4) has been "deprived of life," would the shepherd have rejoiced when he found its carcass? Our Lord directed His disciples to go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt.10:6). They were no more dead than the strayed sheep which the shepherd sought. A word whose "primary" meaning is "to deprive of life" cannot have a "secondary" meaning of a state of life. Death cannot be modified into a form of life. White is not a secondary meaning of black. Life, in any form, is not expressed by a word which means death.

"Let us apply this definition to our Lord's exhortation to His disciples. He said, "He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it" (Matt.10:39, see Mark 8:35; Luke 9:24; 17:33). Is He urging them to commit suicide? The destruction of the soul does not mean death. It means to forgo the pleasure of life and endure the sufferings due to faithfulness to Christ. How contrary is this to our modern gospel of "soul-saving!" We exhort the sinner to save his soul, but our Lord pleaded with His disciples to destroy their souls. It is utterly absurd to give destroy the meaning suggested.

"As we have often pointed out, the statement that the Son of Mankind came to seek and to save that which is lost (Luke 19:10) is the key to the meaning of apollumi. It refers specifically to Zaccheus. He was lost, destroyed. Because he was lost he was ready to be found and saved. The real object of most false definitions of apollumi is to prove that it means death from which there is no resurrection, practical annihilation, a state from which salvation is impossible. This passage directly destroys this idea. Instead of the lost being beyond salvation, they alone are eligible for salvation. You cannot rescue a man who is safe and sound. It is only when he is in the state denoted by apollumi that salvation can operate in his behalf." (A.E. Knoch, Unsearchable Riches, vol. 21)

[Andromeda_Organa]

that's just one article.

[YoungYuni]

Hello!

Just look at the people in this forum, there are different views within this forum concerning everything.

If we were to take what one group said and collect sayings and teachings from that particular group, it would look like they were a majority and we may understand it to be the main teaching of this forum.

However, that is just a very small group who are just recorded in believing a certain doctrine.

Just because there was some early church fathers who did not believe in UR, doesn't mean that it was not taught by other early church fathers.

There is also the possibility that some of those who we call church fathers, are not God's chosen. Though that is just going to get messy to go deeper into.

:happygrin: :happygrin:

Blah! I know what some of you are thinking, but I sometimes get excited and say things I don't mean, just a little emotional.

[jabcat]

Being new to UR I am being blessed by reading Scripture in a whole new light (Light).

Romans 5:10 (NASB) says "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled we shall be saved by His life."

The first part says that even apart from our faith, Christ had already reconciled us to God. He broke the curse of being spiritually dead to God (ref. I Corinthians 15:22). This however does not mean we have yet entered the Body of Christ.

The second part of the verse says "much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life". Until we receive Christ we are not saved, (meaning the body of sin done away with). By receiving Him in this life we enter into His death, burial and resurrected life, (Romans 6). Those that do not receive or believe in Christ while in this mortal body will go into ages destruction of their flesh. It will be unpleasant to be sure because they have not received the work that Christ had done for them in this life.

Let me point out that my reading of Scripture above is certainly open for review as I am only now beginning to be blessed in my new walk in UR.   :Sparkletooth:

:thumbsup: