The WILL of GOD... Can it be "thwarted" by men?

[Paul Hazelwood]

And God is great even being unable to lie isn't he?

Toward the light side Father is unlimited. All mentioned limitations are on the dark side.

Otherwise He would be Darth Vader  :winkgrin:

Perhaps.... I tend to see it like this.   Gods inability to lie is one of the greater things in existence, we absolutely can trust that he will not.

We do not have to listen to people say  "God can lie, he just chooses not to"  because then one could argue that God at some point could choose to lie.   If someone says that is not true, then what point is there to make the case to say that it is possible for God to lie?

If it is possible, then we cannot actually trust that he will not.

[Dallas]

We do not have to listen to people say  "God can lie, he just chooses not to"  because then one could argue that God at some point could choose to lie.   If someone says that is not true, then what point is there to make the case to say that it is possible for God to lie?

Trust is about risk. To open yourself up and be vulnerable is a risk. To leave my well being in the hands of another is a risk. But based on the character of God is what we place trust with.

If you watch a sports game and record it, knowing the final score, then watch it again with friends and claim you trust one team to win, that's not trust.

When there is no risk there is no trust there is no need for trust.

All realationships grow in trust (faith), based on experiences with that person. On an earthly level we are always suspect with our relationship, with God ourselves still have a sense of fear in trusting Him also...but as we experience His relationship we learn we can absolutley trust Him. Yes, we as human only know fear in relationship, but with Him we learn Trust.

[Paul Hazelwood]

We do not have to listen to people say  "God can lie, he just chooses not to"  because then one could argue that God at some point could choose to lie.   If someone says that is not true, then what point is there to make the case to say that it is possible for God to lie?

Trust is about risk. To open yourself up and be vulnerable is a risk. To leave my well being in the hands of another is a risk. But based on the character of God is what we place trust with.

If you watch a sports game and record it, knowing the final score, then watch it again with friends and claim you trust one team to win, that's not trust.

When there is no risk there is no trust there is no need for trust.

All realationships grow in trust (faith), based on experiences with that person. On an earthly level we are always suspect with our relationship, with God ourselves still have a sense of fear in trusting Him also...but as we experience His relationship we learn we can absolutley trust Him. Yes, we as human only know fear in relationship, but with Him we learn Trust.

Well, one thing is for sure,  when scripture indicates that it is impossible for God to lie, I have no reason to entertain that he can.  

I would say perhaps you are correct since God cannot lie and men try very hard to say that he can.  I trust that it is impossible for God to lie in the face of others trying to convince me otherwise.

From that standpoint, there is a percieved risk because obviously some think it is dangerous that I dare say there is something God cannot do.    I am learning to trust in that regaurd.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I don't think He can lie, but He did send a lying spirit to be in the mouth of the prophet. Blessings....

[Dallas]

Well, one thing is for sure,  when scripture indicates that it is impossible for God to lie, I have no reason to entertain that he can.   

I would say perhaps you are correct since God cannot lie and men try very hard to say that he can.  I trust that it is impossible for God to lie in the face of others trying to convince me otherwise.

From that standpoint, there is a percieved risk because obviously some think it is dangerous that I dare say there is something God cannot do.    I am learning to trust in that regaurd.

Scripture also says that God has feathers while some say that God is invisible, some say that Moses saw the backside of God while Jesus say none have seen Him. Understanding what the writer was saying and implying is what is important to understanding reason to trust, otherwise it's a new law.

I am protected by this scripture therefore I can trust God. Trust must be established through experience, since we are limited in our understanding, our trust can not be based on knowledge, but must be definatley supported by it.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Well, one thing is for sure,  when scripture indicates that it is impossible for God to lie, I have no reason to entertain that he can.   

I would say perhaps you are correct since God cannot lie and men try very hard to say that he can.  I trust that it is impossible for God to lie in the face of others trying to convince me otherwise.

From that standpoint, there is a percieved risk because obviously some think it is dangerous that I dare say there is something God cannot do.    I am learning to trust in that regaurd.

Scripture also says that God has feathers while some say that God is invisible, some say that Moses saw the backside of God while Jesus say none have seen Him. Understanding what the writer was saying and implying is what is important to understanding reason to trust, otherwise it's a new law.

I am protected by this scripture therefore I can trust God. Trust must be established through experience, since we are limited in our understanding, our trust can not be based on knowledge, but must be definatley supported by it.

I understand all of that.  However, you are pointing out contrasts in scripture.

What is the contrast to the verse that says it is impossible for God to lie?

[Dallas]

I understand all of that.  However, you are pointing out contrasts in scripture.

What is the contrast to the verse that says it is impossible for God to lie?

My point wasn't to contrast scripture, but was to emphasize that our trust shouldn't be built upon, because scripture says this or that.

So are you saying that if scripture didn't say that you couldn;t trust God? Using a scripture as protection to believe isn't trust. That's what I was trying to point out.

However, The Law commanded was You shall not Lie, yet when Isreal sent spies to search out a country it became known to the opposing nation. A house took in the Hebrew spies, when the national army came door to door looking for them(spies) the house owners lied and said they didn't know them. Later the spies escaped saying God would reward them for their help. Sure enough when Israel came through and destroyed the nation, only the Liars house was left standing.

God who said you shall not lie, rewarded these anit-nationalist for lying.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi sister C... :hithere:

Hi All,

Never do I ever want to argue, pester, annoy, or cause any kind of disturbance. I just want to get to the bottom of things just like everyone else. I only present what God has shown me and where I am at in my understanding. I don't expect everyone to agree with me on anything. I am learning and the more I learn the more I realize I don't know much of anything. I have learned a lot from everyone of you on this forum. What do we have that wasn't given to us anyway. None of us has anything to boast about, all we have is something to discuss and learn about. Don't ever feel like I want to argue and don't ever feel intimidated by what I say. If you ever get angry or upset with me feel free to tell about it.

Amen Charlotte!  [IMO] You are much farther along in your understandings than you give yourself credit sis.  :thumbsup:

By the display of humility in this post...  you are (at least by me), commended for making  this statement!  :friendstu:

Paul said, God didn't tempt man, I said if God didn't tempt man directly he did indirectly. What I mean is God gave that job to Satan or through other means.

Paul said no where was there a verse that said God tempted anyone, I just presented one that I had forgotten about but it does exist and cannot be ignored.

Chuck said, God does NOT solitate or intice us to sin.

PERIOD.

God put the serpent and the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and said, "thou shalt not eat".   Isn't that a type of temptation?

Put your 2 year old in a room full of toys and tell it not to touch the doll or the car and see what happens.

CHB 

I agree with you...

As I see it, ...GOD is ultimately RESPONSIBLE for EVERYTHING within His Creation, for "CREATION" is HIS BUSINESS, and which is WHY, ...ALL things SHALL BE in time [already ARE in eternity] RECONCILED unto Him!

GOD Himself, does not DIRECTLY "tempt" any man... but HE created ALL the MEN & WOMEN which in fact use the things within HIS Creation, to "tempt" ALL the other MEN & WOMEN, within their course...  :dontknow: 

Your "2 year old" scenario" illustration, is a great object lesson...

God put us (2yr olds) and the "toys" (evil) in the room (garden/world), and then told us (adam & eve) not to access the toys...  :dontknow:

So though HE is not doing it DIRECTLY... HE is the ROOT from which ALL things EMERGE -- John 1:3 -- and ALL THINGS which OCCUR are KNOWN by Him, before they OCCUR... and have been DECLARED BY HIM, to OCCUR -- Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 4:17

Anything HE DECLARES (with His WORD -- said "declarations", are made with "words"), shall COME TO PASS...

This is the "living" KNOWLEDGE of GOOD & EVIL being manifest... and EMERGENT from the Heart of YHVH God...

Though ultimately only GOOD shall be manifest within the ETERNAL realm... in the TEMPORAL realm of time, it is HIS WILL that EVIL be manifest... and as well, ...is WHY, as EVIL in its innumerable and varying negativity, is MANIFEST in all its UGLINESS and HORROR --- He stands by, and does not PREVENT it from occuring even though He is well able to PREVENT any and ALL of it.

:Peace: sis...

...willieH  :cloud9:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi-D-ho!  :cloud9:

Wow!!! If there are things that God cannot do then how can we even think that we can do anything? Paul, this is GOD we are talking about.

Now, I must challenge you to show me a verse that states that God cannot lie, please.

I think you already mentioned one of the things God can't do.
Lie.
Neither can He change or sin. And there are more.

GOD "cannot" do them, because He WILL NOT...  :dontknow:

NOTHING is "IMPOSSIBLE" with God...  :happygrin:

Any "thing" we might find in the Scripture which states that GOD "cannot" do, ...is only "IMPOSSIBLE" for GOD because He WILL NOT do these... and HE CHANGES NOT... Because He is PERFECT [complete] and something PERFECT [complete] needs no additions or subtractions.

That which is COMPLETE, does not CHANGE... that which is COMPLETE does not LIE... that which is COMPLETE does not SIN, ...etc.

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Nathan]

Hey Willie!!  That's exactly how I see it as well ... but for some reason, when I write it out, it never comes out as good as when you do it!!

[Beloved Servant]

Amen, WillieH

Jesus! The complete and perfect man.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I understand all of that.  However, you are pointing out contrasts in scripture.

What is the contrast to the verse that says it is impossible for God to lie?

My point wasn't to contrast scripture, but was to emphasize that our trust shouldn't be built upon, because scripture says this or that.

So are you saying that if scripture didn't say that you couldn;t trust God? Using a scripture as protection to believe isn't trust. That's what I was trying to point out.

However, The Law commanded was You shall not Lie, yet when Isreal sent spies to search out a country it became known to the opposing nation. A house took in the Hebrew spies, when the national army came door to door looking for them(spies) the house owners lied and said they didn't know them. Later the spies escaped saying God would reward them for their help. Sure enough when Israel came through and destroyed the nation, only the Liars house was left standing.

God who said you shall not lie, rewarded these anit-nationalist for lying.

I think this would be a great subject for another topic, not trying to deflect,  just was thinking that indeed this is a great point to consider in terms of God is unable to lie, but scripture accounts for God sending a lying spirit.  

To your question about trusting God if scripture didn't say it.   True, scripture in and of itself can be made to say anything if we stand on a declaration that scripture says it, so that's final.  What scripture says is often an assertion of what we believe it means.

I would say that from any perspective, a person who lies cannot be trusted.   Now,  lets say I am intending to do harm to someone,  who can I trust?   Now lets say I intend to do good to someone, who can I trust?    From either perspective I cannot trust man, because man lies.

If I am asking someone a question, even if it is for the purpose of doing harm, I still cannot necessarily trust the answer from someone I am asking.

If I am supposed to trust God, then lying is not something for me to consider as a possibility in any context or based on any book.  

To some who think saying God cannot do something as a bad thing I only consider that if it is possible that God can lie, then there is the possibility that he will, otherwise saying he can is a moot issue.   To say he won't is irrelevant if it absolutely can never happen.

I see that a fact that God cannot lie is absolute in perfection and not limiting, but glorious that we are to one day be so pure that such a thing will not be possible.

[Dallas]

To your question about trusting God if scripture didn't say it.   True, scripture in and of itself can be made to say anything if we stand on a declaration that scripture says it, so that's final.  What scripture says is often an assertion of what we believe it means.

That's how come experience is a reality as apposed to straight doctrine. Dooctrine changes, 99% of us here went through a doctrine change to be here. To rely on that simply isn't stable enough, but knowing that God has done good to me through my life remains, no matter what doctrine I believe and that foundation causes trust.

I would say that from any perspective, a person who lies cannot be trusted.   Now,  lets say I am intending to do harm to someone,  who can I trust?   Now lets say I intend to do good to someone, who can I trust?    From either perspective I cannot trust man, because man lies.

If I am asking someone a question, even if it is for the purpose of doing harm, I still cannot necessarily trust the answer from someone I am asking.

This is howcome I say that we, as man, have no foundation in which to freely trust someone. Even through experience with other "mankind" we are betrayed. That's howcome people need to have laws like "God can not lie" because it gives them security to trust. What I am saying is, that isn't really trust, but through getting to know Him and the things He personally does will bring trust.

If I am supposed to trust God, then lying is not something for me to consider as a possibility in any context or based on any book.

Trust shouldn't be given to anyone based on anything but the character of that person, and that character must be learned through experience, otherwise freely trusting people who haven't proven themselves cause you to be betrayed. I wouldn;t expect anyone to trust God except based on what He has done with them, to ask someone to trust God just because someting or someone says to is foolish.

To some who think saying God cannot do something as a bad thing I only consider that if it is possible that God can lie, then there is the possibility that he will, otherwise saying he can is a moot issue.   To say he won't is irrelevant if it absolutely can never happen.

I believe that God could lie, it is in His ability to mislead and form deception. He is not apart from the concept for He created the devil a liar from the beginning, (John 8:44) but just because He is familiar with the concept and ability doesn't mean that it is within His character to do so. For did Jesus lie? It was in His ability as being 100% man, He just didn't. God has never decieved me, and I go on trusting Him that He won't.

Now I point out, lying is a behaviour. By what means do we now determine whether lying is bad or not? If a mobster runs by and hides right by you with a gun drawn and says don't tell them where I am or I will kill you, then two men come up and say where did he go, and you lie and say I don;t know.... is that lying a bad thing or not?


It's subjective, it's judging. It's through law we judge that, so let me ask you, to what Law do you hold God accountable to, for He is niether under or subjected to any law?

[CHB]

When we actually learn there are things God absolutely cannot do,  we then are on the path to being able to resolve these difficulties without rationalizations that can be applied to any action imaginable.


Wow!!! If there are things that God cannot do then how can we even think that we can do anything? Paul, this is GOD we are talking about.

Now, I must challenge you to show me a verse that states that God cannot lie, please.

CHB

I don't think that it's God doesn't have the ability to lie, but it's that He will not lie. God can deny Himself but He won't do it.

It's not that there is anything impossible for God, instead it's there are some things God refuses to do.

Yes, this is the way I see it also Dallas. God does not do, or will not do certain things, not that he cannot do them.

CHB

[CHB]

willieH: Hi sister C... :hithere:

Hi All,

Never do I ever want to argue, pester, annoy, or cause any kind of disturbance. I just want to get to the bottom of things just like everyone else. I only present what God has shown me and where I am at in my understanding. I don't expect everyone to agree with me on anything. I am learning and the more I learn the more I realize I don't know much of anything. I have learned a lot from everyone of you on this forum. What do we have that wasn't given to us anyway. None of us has anything to boast about, all we have is something to discuss and learn about. Don't ever feel like I want to argue and don't ever feel intimidated by what I say. If you ever get angry or upset with me feel free to tell about it.

Amen Charlotte!  [IMO] You are much farther along in your understandings than you give yourself credit sis.  :thumbsup:

By the display of humility in this post...  you are (at least by me), commended for making  this statement!  :friendstu:

Paul said, God didn't tempt man, I said if God didn't tempt man directly he did indirectly. What I mean is God gave that job to Satan or through other means.

Paul said no where was there a verse that said God tempted anyone, I just presented one that I had forgotten about but it does exist and cannot be ignored.

Chuck said, God does NOT solitate or intice us to sin.

PERIOD.

God put the serpent and the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and said, "thou shalt not eat".   Isn't that a type of temptation?

Put your 2 year old in a room full of toys and tell it not to touch the doll or the car and see what happens.

CHB 

I agree with you...

As I see it, ...GOD is ultimately RESPONSIBLE for EVERYTHING within His Creation, for "CREATION" is HIS BUSINESS, and which is WHY, ...ALL things SHALL BE in time [already ARE in eternity] RECONCILED unto Him!

GOD Himself, does not DIRECTLY "tempt" any man... but HE created ALL the MEN & WOMEN which in fact use the things within HIS Creation, to "tempt" ALL the other MEN & WOMEN, within their course...  :dontknow: 

Your "2 year old" scenario" illustration, is a great object lesson...

God put us (2yr olds) and the "toys" (evil) in the room (garden/world), and then told us (adam & eve) not to access the toys...  :dontknow:

So though HE is not doing it DIRECTLY... HE is the ROOT from which ALL things EMERGE -- John 1:3 -- and ALL THINGS which OCCUR are KNOWN by Him, before they OCCUR... and have been DECLARED BY HIM, to OCCUR -- Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 4:17

Anything HE DECLARES (with His WORD -- said "declarations", are made with "words"), shall COME TO PASS...

This is the "living" KNOWLEDGE of GOOD & EVIL being manifest... and EMERGENT from the Heart of YHVH God...

Though ultimately only GOOD shall be manifest within the ETERNAL realm... in the TEMPORAL realm of time, it is HIS WILL that EVIL be manifest... and as well, ...is WHY, as EVIL in its innumerable and varying negativity, is MANIFEST in all its UGLINESS and HORROR --- He stands by, and does not PREVENT it from occuring even though He is well able to PREVENT any and ALL of it.

:Peace: sis...

...willieH  :cloud9:

Thank you willie, I agree with what Nathan said about you explaining this much better than I can. I agree with you that nothing is impossible with God.

(Luke 1:37) For with God nothing is impossible.

CHB

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: And I make 3 in agreement Willie.......you bring it out flawlessly.  :thumbsup:

[Paul Hazelwood]

It's subjective, it's judging. It's through law we judge that, so let me ask you, to what Law do you hold God accountable to, for He is niether under or subjected to any law?

I've never thought about holding a God accountable for anything actually.  I seek to know whats really true, even if truth is that there is no God in the first place.  My life has only changed for the better as I escape the clutches of controlling people, and allow myself to pursue and contemplate the vastness of existance without fear and guilt.

My life never got better by praying more, tithing more, reading the bible more,  praying the sinners prayer, saying I believe or any other religious ritual.

Beyond that, I can only hope what I often believe and hope for is true and stand by what works.

[Dallas]

I've never thought about holding a God accountable for anything actually.  I seek to know whats really true, even if truth is that there is no God in the first place.  My life has only changed for the better as I escape the clutches of controlling people, and allow myself to pursue and contemplate the vastness of existance without fear and guilt.

My life never got better by praying more, tithing more, reading the bible more,  praying the sinners prayer, saying I believe or any other religious ritual. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Beyond that, I can only hope what I often believe and hope for is true and stand by what works.

:thumbsup:

There really is only one thing we can do...what we think is right. Whatever otherwise happens, happens. But the freedom I have recieved through what I believe has changed my life...

Galatians 5:1 "For it is freedom that Christ has set you free"

[eaglesway]

As I see it..... Just for consideration (the things we see through a glass darkly look one way to one person but may appear as something different to another)

Imagine there are two spheres (for the purpose of illustration only-there are actually numerous spheres within spheres transitioning into infinity, you coud call them heavens).

One sphere is immense(even infinite). The other sphere, created within the larger sphere, is small(the finite kosmos). God created the small , and within it He established certain finite principles(the foundations of the world).

He has placed us in the smaller sphere- subject to those principles.

God speaks a language to man within the small sphere based on the parameters of that kosmos. That language is the language of stewardship. God is training us for life in the larger sphere(aionian zoe)- into which we will graduate when death is swallowed up by immortality.

God has given us glimpses into the larger sphere (we see though a glass darkly, the higher realms- the aions and kosmos to come- the new heavens and the new earth,etc). These glimpses are the language of His allness. We need both languages> they can be integrated, they do not need be in opposition like the snake feeding on his tail. They are two sides of a coin called the whole counsel of God.

God knows all that will occur and has caused all that will take place to the extent that He created both the spheres and He spoke forth the parameters and initial causality of everything.

God, by virtue of omniscience has already seen all that will ever occur....but this is why the word "mystery" is used so frequently- we cannot fully fathom His view until we graduate(then we shall know as we are known). Enoch and a few others graduated by walking so well in the stewardship of the mystery, in fellowship with God ("He walked with God and was not, because God took him"). They were allowed to ascend directly.

I believe God has limited Himself in a measure(from our point of view within the small sphere), as it is written, we are predestined "according to the foreknowledge of God". Our stewardship is to enter His rest- the finished work. To discern the pathways that lead to "aionian zoe"(life in the larger sphere) and embrace them- beginning with faith in the work of the cross of Christ. Joining Him in "willing death"(the triumph of life is letting go) sets us free from "forced death"(kolasis- restraint, pruning). "The one who loses their life for My sake and the kingdom sake will find it unto aionian zoe." "The one who seeks to save their life will lose it."

Imagine the garden of Eden as a microcosm of the kosmos, at the same time a microcosm of a body of people, as well as a microcosm of an individual life. We are always choosing whether to eat from the tree of life, or from the tree of knowledge. The snake always entices us to chase our tail in "knowing". If knowledge(mind soul) is ascendant over life(spirit) we are cast out of the "garden"(place of fellowship with God in aionian zoe). We are like the snake, eating his own tail. The consequences are division, carnality, selfish ambition, bitter jealousy, etc. God has so set the parameters of "death", that its discomforts are always leading us back to life. You could call that "fire", or "conviction", or "scourging", or "pruning", or "kolasis".

If we want to transcend the parameters of the smaller circle we do so "by grace through faith" within the stewardship of the mystery- beginning with the elementary principles of the oracles of God. When we are "hearing with faith"- the exhortations to life(such as "pray in the spirit" or "in everything give thanks") no longer seem like the law. The functions of the spiritual life are no longer burdensome, or used to "measure" ourselves or others. They become the instructions that wise sons receive from their fathers along the way as they grow into "the glorious liberty of the sons of God" within "the law of the Spirit Of Life In Christ Jesus". They become the water of life and the good soil and the warm sunlight.

Those who graduate into sonship (the crown of life for those who remain faithful in believing and walking in love) avoid "aionian kolasis"- "the hour of trial that will come upon all those who dwell on the earth"- because they have already received within themselves, willingly, the sentence of death in union with Jesus, who is leading many sons to glory. In exchange they receive "aionian zoe". If we suffer with Him we will also reign with Him. We will reign through love in the reconciliation, restitution of all things in the ages to come, until He abolishes all rule power and authority, and God is all in all.

This was just a simplified view of one persons perspective. Glean or purge as you will.

[Beloved Servant]

Ephesians 2:10;
For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

[Syndicated]

I'm a little late in the conversation, but here's my  :2c:...

I was once posed with this question and it made me believe that there is no way that I can change the will of God in any aspect, and in fact at every given time I am right where God wants and needs me to be to be able to grow closer to Him and into His fullness...

Who are we, as creations of God, to be able to go against His will for the world He created, to do our own will?

This statement doesn't make sense when even David sings to God that the days of our lives were already set out before we were born...

Psalm 139:16Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
         And in Your book were all written
         The days that were ordained for me,
         When as yet there was not one of them.

[Dallas]

I was once posed with this question and it made me believe that there is no way that I can change the will of God in any aspect, and in fact at every given time I am right where God wants and needs me to be to be able to grow closer to Him and into His fullness...

Who are we, as creations of God, to be able to go against His will for the world He created, to do our own will?

This is why it's important to understand the promises of God. In Genesis 17 when God explains the everlasting covenant He tells us that we will, "Walk before Him," this is telling us that we are included into the things of God, what He is doing and that we can be an active participant. That's howcome one chapter later God converses with Abraham about what should happen to Sodom/Gomorah.

Chapter 17 God says to Abaham, as far as God is concearned the covenant was with Abraham already and in Chapter 18 God and Abaham where walking in it together.

As God's children, we talk with and change His will. It is a real relationship. Just as my daughter can change my mind, I talk and walk with Him just as Abraham.

[Beloved Servant]

Dallas,
To what degree can I change God's will?
Seriously, can I get that boat and new car?
Can I ask for peace on earth, immediately?
With what wisdom could I rule the universe without
totally fouling things up?
To what degree can I change God's will?
Thanks,
dave.

[Dallas]

Dallas,
To what degree can I change God's will?
Seriously, can I get that boat and new car?
Can I ask for peace on earth, immediately?
With what wisdom could I rule the universe without
totally fouling things up?
To what degree can I change God's will?
Thanks,
dave.

Well....if you are walking with Him and living with Him and having conversation with Him....ask Him.

[Beloved Servant]

Well, if I can change His mind so readily,
I suppose I'll just TELL Him.