The WILL of GOD... Can it be "thwarted" by men?

[CHB]

Ask myself?  Why not show that Eve and Paul blamed God.

If our body of flesh is sin who put us in them? God did.

It also says that "God tempts no man" and God doesn't directly but because of circumstances and things that God puts in our path we are tempted. All paths comes from God and all leads back to him.

Thats just like everyone bowing the knee and the tongue confessing. God doesn't DIRECTLY make everyone bow and confess but he causes things to work out so they will. He reveals himself and by showing the world how much he loves them, everyone will be happy to bow and confess. Now, did God cause it or did man?

CHB

I appreciate that you believe scripture in the way you do.  However there is a reason I have the point of view I have.  One reason is that we find no one in scripture glorifying God for their own evil deeds.

Please show Eve or Paul stating the same kinds of things you are saying.  It is a simple request in order to help me consider what you believe to be truth in the manner in which you present it.

Paul blamed Adam (Rom. 5:18-19).  Adam blamed Eve (Gen. 3:12)  Eve blamed the serpent (Gen. 3:13.  The serpent blamed God (Gen. 3:5).

The trail leads back to God. I don't think "blame" is the right word here even though I did use it.

Adam and Eve were sinful flesh and God said "thou shalt not".  If God hadn't said "thou shalt not" Eve probably wouldn't have felt guilty about disobeying God, because Paul said "whatever is not of faith is sin". 

(1Cor. 10:23) "All things are lawful for me but all things are not expedient".

CHB

[Paul Hazelwood]

Ask myself?  Why not show that Eve and Paul blamed God.

If our body of flesh is sin who put us in them? God did.

It also says that "God tempts no man" and God doesn't directly but because of circumstances and things that God puts in our path we are tempted. All paths comes from God and all leads back to him.

Thats just like everyone bowing the knee and the tongue confessing. God doesn't DIRECTLY make everyone bow and confess but he causes things to work out so they will. He reveals himself and by showing the world how much he loves them, everyone will be happy to bow and confess. Now, did God cause it or did man?

CHB

I appreciate that you believe scripture in the way you do.  However there is a reason I have the point of view I have.  One reason is that we find no one in scripture glorifying God for their own evil deeds.

Please show Eve or Paul stating the same kinds of things you are saying.  It is a simple request in order to help me consider what you believe to be truth in the manner in which you present it.

Paul blamed Adam (Rom. 5:18-19).  Adam blamed Eve (Gen. 3:12)  Eve blamed the serpent (Gen. 3:13.  The serpent blamed God (Gen. 3:5).

The trail leads back to God. I don't think "blame" is the right word here even though I did use it.

Adam and Eve were sinful flesh and God said "thou shalt not".  If God hadn't said "thou shalt not" Eve probably wouldn't have felt guilty about disobeying God, because Paul said "whatever is not of faith is sin". 

(1Cor. 10:23) "All things are lawful for me but all things are not expedient".

CHB

I'd say the greater example here is that the one who will deceive the world is the one who blamed God. 

[peacemaker]

I'd say the greater example here is that the one who will deceive the world is the one who blamed God. 

It's the woman you gave me. :thumbsup:

[Paul Hazelwood]

It also says that "God tempts no man" and God doesn't directly but because of circumstances and things that God puts in our path we are tempted. All paths comes from God and all leads back to him.

Ja 1:13 . Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

The statement your making above is indeed God tempting man.   You will not find in scripture even a slight inference to show that God even indirectly temps man.

You are simply saying that God tempts man, he just does it indirectly, the scripture says that you are not to say that, but yet, here you are saying it.

[chuckt]

every sunday all over the world people recite in churches:

""lead us not into temptation""

We all here know this is WRONG!

peace
chuckt

[Nathan]

What part of my nature is being tempted?  My soul?  Or my Spirit?

[eaglesway]

There is nothing wrong with praying, "Lead me not into temptation", which simply means "steer me away from the things that entice me through the flesh". Anymore that it is wrong to pray, "lead me in paths of righteousness for thy namesake". Peace, John

We have to make choices everyday- we do not see from His perspective and prayer is a part of the way in which He works all things according to the counsel of His will. It is a mystery folks- we can't penetrate it all and totally eliminate our participation. Only the end view reveals His absolute will. "Today" is what I am given. "Today" if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts."

[chuckt]

not me, i will not ask God to ""not lead me INTO temptation""

i think thats alot different than saying TO lead me in righteousness......

i also think its alot dofferent than asking him to ""save"" me FROM temptation or lead me Away FROM.....

i do however ask him to detach the fetters of faults that bind me......

here is another good one:

Abwûn O cosmic Birther, from whom the breath of life comes,
d'bwaschmâja who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration.
Nethkâdasch schmach May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest.
Têtê malkuthach. Your Heavenly Domain approaches.
Nehwê tzevjânach aikâna d'bwaschmâja af b'arha. Let Your will come true in the universe (all that vibrates) just as on earth (that is material and dense).
Hawvlân lachma d'sûnkanân jaomâna. Give us wisdom (understanding, assistance) for our daily need,
Waschboklân chaubên wachtahên aikâna daf chnân schwoken l'chaijabên. detach the fetters of faults that bind us, (karma) like we let go the guilt of others.
Wela tachlân l'nesjuna Let us not be lost in superficial things (materialism, common temptations),
ela patzân min bischa. but let us be freed from that what keeps us off from our true purpose.
Metol dilachie malkutha wahaila wateschbuchta l'ahlâm almîn. From You comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act, the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age.
Amên. Sealed in trust, faith and truth. (I confirm with my entire being)

[CHB]

It also says that "God tempts no man" and God doesn't directly but because of circumstances and things that God puts in our path we are tempted. All paths comes from God and all leads back to him.

Ja 1:13 . Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

The statement your making above is indeed God tempting man.   You will not find in scripture even a slight inference to show that God even indirectly temps man.

You are simply saying that God tempts man, he just does it indirectly, the scripture says that you are not to say that, but yet, here you are saying it.

How do you explain this verse?

(Gen. 22:1) And it came to pass after these things, THAT GOD DID TEMPT ABRAHAM.



(1Cor. 10:13) "God is faithful, who will NOT SUFFER YOU TO BE TEMPTED ABOVE THAT YE ARE ABLE; BUT WILL WITH THE TEMPTATION". 

Notice it says "will WITH the TEMPTATION".  Just like with Abraham God furnished the temptation and he also made a way of excape.

CHB

[Paul Hazelwood]

It also says that "God tempts no man" and God doesn't directly but because of circumstances and things that God puts in our path we are tempted. All paths comes from God and all leads back to him.

Ja 1:13 . Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

The statement your making above is indeed God tempting man.   You will not find in scripture even a slight inference to show that God even indirectly temps man.

You are simply saying that God tempts man, he just does it indirectly, the scripture says that you are not to say that, but yet, here you are saying it.

How do you explain this verse?

(Gen. 22:1) And it came to pass after these things, THAT GOD DID TEMPT ABRAHAM.



(1Cor. 10:13) "God is faithful, who will NOT SUFFER YOU TO BE TEMPTED ABOVE THAT YE ARE ABLE; BUT WILL WITH THE TEMPTATION". 

Notice it says "will WITH the TEMPTATION".  Just like with Abraham God furnished the temptation and he also made a way of excape.

CHB

Why do I need to explain it?  You have brought forth a verse that says to not say God tempted you, then your saying God does tempt man even amidst a verse that instructs you to not say God tempts you.

You are the one that needs to do the explaining,  I haven't presented the conflicting argument, you have.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Choose ye this day whom ye will serve. There is always a choice to be made even if we are oblivious to it sometimes, and because He made the tempter it is established to be that way by HIM. Ask Job jor Abraham if He deals with people that way. Blessings....

[chuckt]

God does NOT solitate or intice us to sin.

PERIOD.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I never said He did, but He has established the tempter to provide a choice. He put Adam and Eve in the garden and presented a choice. Do you think God didn't know what the serpent was going to do? Blessings.....

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: And lets not forget this one.......

Matthew 4:1 KJV Then was Jesus led up of the SPIRIT into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

[chuckt]

author=Cardinal link=topic=8033.msg95082#msg95082 date=1272381737]
:cloud9: I never said He did,

i know.....

but He has established the tempter to provide a choice. He put Adam and Eve in the garden and presented a choice. Do you think God didn't know what the serpent was going to do? Blessings.....

i k ow what scripture says, and that he created the waster to destroy...ETC.....be that as it may, everytime i think i got all that ""serpent"" stuff and the garden and the tree's ETC ETC figured out, i dont......

its been 25 yrs now and im tired of trying to figure it out, what i know is, my mind, says yes or no...

and my tongue is dangerous...

peace
chuck

[chuckt]

:cloud9: And lets not forget this one.......

Matthew 4:1 KJV Then was Jesus led up of the SPIRIT into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

yup and it says to be tempted of the devil NOT ABBA FATHER!!!

would you TEMPT your child?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes, but the point is, the SPIRIT took him out there to be tempted in the first place. Blessings....

PS. Chuck, please don't feel I'm trying to give you a hard time if I disagree with you.......I just see things differently and I'm sharing what I see, same as you. And that goes for anything I write on any topic.  :HeartThrob:

[Nathan]

It appears this particular subject is one of those "passionate" ones that can lead us into more argument than debate.  I've seen this in the past as well.  This idea that God would never tempt us because of our interpretation of what one passage is saying against another is something each of us do need to come to terms with, within each of our own natures as I believe this is how God often brings revelation of his true nature to us, through questions and contemplations.  Our spirits "hovering" (contemplating) over the face (identity) of the deep (unknown).

We don't go to revelation, it comes to us.  And that is one great aspect about forums such as this, we all grow from each others experiences in personal revelations of what the Father has shown them.  

For me, this is why I did ask which is being tempted, my spirit or my soul.  Because the passage that states that God will tempt no man is telling me that my man is not tempted by the Spirit.  My (carnal) man is tempted by carnal desires.  Jesus was not tempted "by" the spirit in the wilderness.  He was "led" by the spirit to be tempted by his "satan", his adversary, his flesh, his mind . . .

If I were to argue this, my question would then be, "if" Jesus was led by the spirit for the purpose of temptation, why then in what tradition calls the Lord's prayer, where Jesus is teaching us how we should pray, why would he have us pray "Lead us not into temptation . . ."?

Could it be there are some things that Jesus did that we in and of ourselves are not to do?  Could it be that "The Lord's Prayer" is not one for mature saints to pray, but infants?  If you think about it, who else would need to be "taught" how to pray than infants?  And as infants, are they not in a much weaker state and would have a much harder time with temptation than a more mature believer who realizes their strength comes not from themselves, but from Christ?

Paul speaks of the fact that we are to rejoice while going through personal tribulation.  I don't know about you, but when I get tempted to think or do things I know I shouldn't be thinking about or doing, "that" creates tribulation in me.  So for me, temptation is very much a part of tribulation.  Paul went through great lengths fighting in himself about it and writing to others about this inward battle as well.  Yet it was "through" that temptation experience that Jesus returned in power.

If I believe that I'm not strong enough to resist temptation, then I promise you, I "will" be praying that God not lead me into it.  However, if I'm in a place in my relationship where the things that were once a temptation, but no longer are due to being lost in love with the Father, then perhaps praying a prayer on temptation isn't all that critical.

Either way, it's something I'm to appy individually to my inner self, not to pronounce whether it's right or wrong to another.  Just my thoughts.

[chuckt]

hey guys and gals, i dont take offence, i love this place and its so refreshing from the ""other"" forum i use to post at...so, PLEASE remember some of that might have rubbed off on me.

i have NEVER felt any of you in attack mode  :hihat:

nevertheless, we can say God is in control of everything, and there is nothing that gets past him. he is the generator of all things.

i do know of a scripture that says "woe to them that call evil good and good evil"

maybe that does not apply here...?

FACT:

for me any way is EVERTHING God does stems from love...even his punishments...

There is so much about YHVH we cant know at this time, BUT we do know what we are called too....

blessings yall
chuckt

and AMEN....in ALL things rejoice and give thanks....oh and again for me i ask god to deliever me from SELF.  :thumbsup:

[Paul Hazelwood]

We all have different ways of working out that Gods will cannot be thwarted,  I think most in this thread have that common denominator.

Some that do not have that factor in common can get pleasure in watching us debate and argue and get passionate for what we believe.  

Nothing wrong with being passionate, or debating, or working things out amongst ourselves.  It is actually the Trolls and people who think they are upsetting the fruit basket  :laughing7:  ,  that are missing out.  They stand on the sidelines looking in,  I feel sorry for them.   I have learned alot from threads started by a troll.   You can learn alot from a troll.

I would rather be passionate even while being wrong and thinking I have it all figured out than be lukewarm and not really caring about much.


Working out Gods Character in the light can be tough, those of us who were in the darkness of religion know how much bondage we were in when we are told to just conform and believe what we are told.

God's will cannot be thwarted,  but working out Gods character is possible and useful and meaningful in understanding and growing to love him, rather than just to tolerate him because "He's God and your not going to do anything about it anyway".  

That is from my walk at this time, not implying about anyone elses.

[CHB]

Hi All,

Never do I ever want to argue, pester, annoy, or cause any kind of disturbance. I just want to get to the bottom of things just like everyone else. I only present what God has shown me and where I am at in my understanding. I don't expect everyone to agree with me on anything. I am learning and the more I learn the more I realize I don't know much of anything. I have learned a lot from everyone of you on this forum. What do we have that wasn't given to us anyway. None of us has anything to boast about, all we have is something to discuss and learn about. Don't ever feel like I want to argue and don't ever feel intimidated by what I say. If you ever get angry or upset with me feel free to tell about it.

Paul said, God didn't tempt man, I said if God didn't tempt man directly he did indirectly. What I mean is God gave that job to Satan or through other means.

Paul said no where was there a verse that said God tempted anyone, I just presented one that I had forgotten about but it does exist and cannot be ignored.

Chuck said, God does NOT solitate or intice us to sin.

PERIOD.

God put the serpent and the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and said, "thou shalt not eat".   Isn't that a type of temptation?

Put your 2 year old in a room full of toys and tell it not to touch the doll or the car and see what happens.

CHB 

[Dallas]

Paul said what he wanted to do he found that he couldn't do and what he didn't want to do that is what he did. Why was that? If Paul was free to choose or do things different than what God had planned why couldn't he do what he wanted to do, or not do what he didn't want to do?

CHB, you have a missed the point of this scripture. Romans 7 isn't talking about man living under grace with sin, it is a picture of a man under the law, and Paul was using himself as an example. If you read right up to the end Paul questions, who can save him from that exsistance...thanks be it to Christ.

Paul declares that he was freed from that kind of living, he doesn't live like that anymore, he only lived like that under the law. As will any person who is trying to establish thier own uprightness...even christians and even universalists...anyone. But that same everyone can be brought out from it, like Paul was brought out, so can all.

[jabcat]

Hi Dallas.  I read that passage as Paul was looking forward to that deliverance, perhaps at the resurrection?  When the mortal takes on immortality.  He said "who shall deliver me"...that's my understanding anyway.  James.

[eaglesway]

I thought that statement was a rhetorical question posed as a summary response to the condition defined previously(O wretched man that I am- under law in the flesh) and as an intro to the new state of deliverance from condemnation (I Thank God through Jesus Christ  our Lord......there is now therefore no condemnation

Rom 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  (2)  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

O wretched man.... is about being under the law of sin and death
I Thank God through Jesus.... is about being under the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

jus' one's opinion, Peace, John

[jabcat]

maybe so John, not sure.  maybe though "no condemnation" has to do with the sentence of guilt being taken care of, though "no longer I but the sin that dwells in me" still at work - so still looking forward to complete deliverance through immortality.  I may be wrong, wondering.  OK, so out of the 3 of us, we've now got 3 or 4 possible variations of interpretation.   :Whistle: