The WILL of GOD... Can it be "thwarted" by men?

[CHB]

One thing I can honestly say is, I am so thankful that God gave me the knowledge of knowing that he is in control of my past, present, and future. I would honestly be a nervous wreck and probably go insane if I thought my salvation or my daily life for that matter was left in my hands.

God created us. He fashioned our minds, I had nothing to do with that. If I had I might be able to change some things different from what God had planned for me. How can we think for a moment that we weak humans can thwart the will of God? Why do we think the way we do? Why do we do the things we do? Have you ever looked back on your life and wondered why things happened or turned out the way they did?

Paul said what he wanted to do he found that he couldn't do and what he didn't want to do that is what he did. Why was that? If Paul was free to choose or do things different than what God had planned why couldn't he do what he wanted to do, or not do what he didn't want to do?

CHB

[Cardinal]

What a great post  WillieH :bgdance: :girlheart: :icon_flower:

Good to see you back Cardinal :icon_flower:

:cloud9: Thanks, Shadow!

[peacemaker]

GOOD MEN WILL LIVE
BAD MEN WILL DIE

"Just as there are wages for good, there is punishment for wrong, as the penalty for sin is eternal death in a place called Hell."

Seems a Baptist Minister who came to my door last night, believes this very same thing.
He took exception to my conversation with several members of his church, after their attempt to solicit.
They also gave relevant verses to support their disposition.

"A fun, clean, and memorable experience for the children."

peacemaker

[Paul Hazelwood]

One thing I can honestly say is, I am so thankful that God gave me the knowledge of knowing that he is in control of my past, present, and future. I would honestly be a nervous wreck and probably go insane if I thought my salvation or my daily life for that matter was left in my hands.

God created us. He fashioned our minds, I had nothing to do with that. If I had I might be able to change some things different from what God had planned for me. How can we think for a moment that we weak humans can thwart the will of God? Why do we think the way we do? Why do we do the things we do? Have you ever looked back on your life and wondered why things happened or turned out the way they did?

Paul said what he wanted to do he found that he couldn't do and what he didn't want to do that is what he did. Why was that? If Paul was free to choose or do things different than what God had planned why couldn't he do what he wanted to do, or not do what he didn't want to do?

CHB

Why does Paul place the blame on sin and not God?

[Theo Book]

It's such a complicated topic - clarifying, I'm not saying I believe God's will can be thwarted.  I believe He ultimately gets exactly what He wants.  :thumbsup:

Doesn't that imply that it's alright with God if men rape and murder each other as long as it's only for a little while? like, a lifetime? After all, God will have his way sooner or later, ultimately!

[jabcat]

It's such a complicated topic - clarifying, I'm not saying I believe God's will can be thwarted.  I believe He ultimately gets exactly what He wants.  :thumbsup:

Doesn't that imply that it's alright with God if men rape and murder each other as long as it's only for a little while? like, a lifetime? After all, God will have his way sooner or later, ultimately!

Not even sure where you would get that from what I said Theo - unless it's some bias in your perception?  I don't know, because no, I don't think that, and your take on what I said actually s/w surprises me.  Why would you say that?  

Do you have the same response to this verse?  "God works all things according to the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11), because those are the direct Words of God, not mine.

[WhiteWings]

James, the meaning of that verse varies with the readers view on "all" and "things".
Surely some (maybe Theo included?) will say it's about God working in His elect.

[jabcat]

IMO, that's a distortion to attempt to fit an already-established POV.  I didn't always believe in UR.  Grudgingly believed in ET until God showed me different.  I dunno if that's what Theo thinks about it or not.

Adding to my thought above though;  Also, our puny, futile attempts to get our own way, including our disobedience for a season - and God ultimately/overall getting His way and working things exactly to the point where He wants them to go, ensuring the final outcome - IMO, can be two different things, though intricately connected within His overall plan.

Maybe we should just admit that it's much bigger than us and our inadequate attempts to fully understand or explain it, and recognize together that He's the Potter and we're the clay;  and how He goes about working His plan of reconciling His whole creation back to Himself - (he has made known to us the mystery of his will in accord with his favor that he set forth in him as a plan for the fullness of times, to sum up all things in Christ, in heaven and on earth Eph 1:9,10) - is His business.   :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

Maybe we should just admit that it's much bigger than us and our inadequate attempts to fully understand or explain it, and recognize together that He's the Potter and we're the clay

Sorry, that doesn't work for me. Isn't this forum about at least trying to understand the Potter? Plus I think it's not just a minor issue.

[Theo Book]

(JC)

It's such a complicated topic - clarifying, I'm not saying I believe God's will can be thwarted.  I believe He ultimately gets exactly what He wants.  :thumbsup:

(TB) Doesn't that imply that it's alright with God if men rape and murder each other as long as it's only for a little while? like, a lifetime? After all, God will have his way sooner or later, ultimately!

(JC)
Not even sure where you would get that from what I said Theo - unless it's some bias in your perception?  I don't know, because no, I don't think that, and your take on what I said actually s/w surprises me.  Why would you say that?  

That's why it was a question instead of an accusation. I did not know what it is you were saying. Not bias, fear.

(JC)

Do you have the same response to this verse?  "God works all things according to the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11), because those are the direct Words of God, not mine.

nope! I agree with the words of God, just question the conclusions of men.

[CHB]

One thing I can honestly say is, I am so thankful that God gave me the knowledge of knowing that he is in control of my past, present, and future. I would honestly be a nervous wreck and probably go insane if I thought my salvation or my daily life for that matter was left in my hands.

God created us. He fashioned our minds, I had nothing to do with that. If I had I might be able to change some things different from what God had planned for me. How can we think for a moment that we weak humans can thwart the will of God? Why do we think the way we do? Why do we do the things we do? Have you ever looked back on your life and wondered why things happened or turned out the way they did?

Paul said what he wanted to do he found that he couldn't do and what he didn't want to do that is what he did. Why was that? If Paul was free to choose or do things different than what God had planned why couldn't he do what he wanted to do, or not do what he didn't want to do?

CHB

Why does Paul place the blame on sin and not God?

Same reason Eve placed the blame of what she did on the serpent. Because it is this sinful flesh that we dwell in that causes us to sin. Then you have to ask yourself, where did this sinful flesh come from?

(Rom. 7:14-25) Paul also said For I know that in me (that is in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing. (Verse 25) So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; BUT WITH THE FLESH THE LAW OF SIN.

CHB

[jabcat]

To WW and Theo.  I understand your concerns Theo about peoples' interpretations.  Agreed.  And I see what you're asking more clearly now, sorry for part of the response, I s/w misunderstood.  And yes Tony, I believe a big part of this forum is "to better understand".

Regardless of what anyone else may believe or has posted, a re-reading of what I've personally posted earlier, it would be seen that I've said I believe we do often resist, and make choices that are "the wrong choices", by which we are corrected, and learn a better way/direction.  Is that God's will?  Must be, because He's the one that put that process in place.  [see Cardinal's post about us driving, making turns, God putting roadblocks in our path so we take a different direction.  I.e., back to the post that initiated this current exchange, God ultimately gets what He wants].

Does God "like" rape and murder?  Of course not.  Those are choices we make, yet within an overall construct of God's creation and ultimate control and His bringing ALL things to an ultimate good conclusion.  Can I explain that any more fuller or better than that?  Maybe not, right at this moment.  Yes Tony, I believe understanding is good.  Revelation is even better.  I believe we get that not only from the scriptures, but from our relationship with the Lord, through prayer and according to His timing and will for us to understand.  I only personally have partial understanding and revelation right now, as I believe does everyone - as we "look through a glass darkly".  So at some point, I do believe there is a bottom line of ..."it is written, But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand". (Is. 64:8)   God is our Creator and He has the power to mold us according to His plan. We are nothing but clay relying on the Potter's wonderful working and the more we submit to His molding process, the more [and more quickly] we will come out pleasing before Him.  Sometimes He does break the vessel and "start over".  Also either Isaiah or Jeremiah said do we question the Potter, why did you make me (this vessel) this way, without a handle, etc.?

Does God "like" sin?  I don't think so.  Did He allow it/is it part of His process for our learning and growth?  I think so.  He turned all to disobedience.  He lowered us into this realm.  He is giving us an experience of evil.  I don't claim to know every minor detail of how and why God does this.  And honestly, the more any of us understand and think we have it figured out, I'm going to figure that due to us seeing through a glass darkly, there's still more to know and understand - partly, because that's why we're here.  So at some point don't we believe the basics of what He's said in His Word and trust Him?  Those basics is what I've tried to personally express.  There are many details that we could argue and divide over, that IMO, would be silly - because I don't think we're going to FULLY understand it until we're done with this life.  So what about in the meantime?   :bigGrin:  

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil021.html

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother, WW...  :cloud9:

James, the meaning of that verse varies with the readers view on "all" and "things".
Surely some (maybe Theo included?) will say it's about God working in His elect.

But that is NOT what the verse says, WW!  It requires INSERTION/ADDITION of thoughts TO what is actually SAID... in order to arrive at this conclusion.  :sigh:

What the verse ...SAYS...  is that GOD is WORKING, ...ALL [pas] THINGS [agathos]... the word "agathos" in definition, means "GOOD"... as well as "THINGS"... Here's the rub...  :Sparkletooth:

This very same word which appears in Eph 1:11 [agathos=good/things] is used in the following verses:

2 Cor 5:17 -- "behold OLD -- THINGS -- are PASSED AWAY"...  what "OLD things", are PASSED AWAY?   Is this saying "OLD GOOD"?  Funny enough, ...it IS!  For ALL "things" which proceed from YHVH, cannot be considered OTHER than "GOOD"... For HE created EVERYTHING, including the "THINGS" [men] which DO EVIL "THINGS"...

Rom 15:27 -- "...for if the Gentiles have been made partakers of spiritual -- THINGS -- their duty is also to minister unto them in CARNAL --THINGS--  The KNOWLEDGE/experience of EVIL is a GOOD THING... for said KNOWLEDGE defines its OPPOSITE [good] for what it IS...  God Himself CREATED (revealed) EVIL... (in its ENTIRETY)  EVERYTHING that IS EVIL... is defined to BE so... by GOOD... which He also created (revealed)

The MILK oriented MIND shall think within itself, that EVIL is something completely BAD, serving NO GOOD PURPOSE... and UNNECESSARY, and in "THINKING" this... it DEMOTES the Creator, for "creating it"!  :mshock:

ALL THINGS within the "creation" of GOD, are permeated with HIS PURPOSE... which is to DEFINE that which is ACCEPTABLE and that which is NOT, concerning the LIVING of LIFE.

If there were NO POVERTY, ...HOW could the state of "RICHES" truly be known and appreciated to ITS FULLNESS?

If there were NO UGLY, ...HOW could the state of "BEAUTY" truly be known and appreciated to ITS FULLNESS?

If there were NO DEATH, ...HOW could the state of "LIFE" truly be known and appreciated to ITS FULLNESS?

The principle is SO EASY to "SEE", that most, in vainly looking for that particular "TREE", cannot SEE IT, for the FOREST is "in the way"...  :sigh:

That the RELIGIOUS argue that the TEMPORAL appearance of "rape, murder, thievery, etc." is distasteful, ...I can certainly agree with... :nod:

That they think that GOD has/had/will have NOTHING to do with that TEMPORAL appearance is IGNORANT... for He stands aside and not only LETS it OCCUR... but DECLARED that it would OCCUR, ...before the Creation -- Isaiah 46:10-11 -- Rom 4:17 

To DECREE that EVIL as a PRINCIPLE is NOT GOOD (in some capacity), is to question the one which CREATED it, to BE the PRINCIPLE that it ...IS...

GOD took and PURPOSED, the ULTIMATE EVIL (the crucifixtion of our Savior who SINNED NOT)... and in that OCCURANCE, ...produced the ULTIMATE GOOD, which is Salvation for the "ALL" -- who SINNED without inhibition or limition, the "rape, murder, thievery, adultery, etc...  :dontknow:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

Yes Tony, I believe understanding is good.

Isn't trying to understand some sort of prayer? Prayer is to come closer to Father. Trying to understand is basicly the same.  :dontknow:

Revelation is even better.

Especially when I started about every article was a revelation :winkgrin:

And honestly, the more any of us understand and think we have it figured out, I'm going to figure that due to us seeing through a glass darkly, there's still more to know and understand - partly, because that's why we're here.

I think that dark glass can come more clear over time. But it's also possible we sometimes can find a very clear spot in it. From that we can derive outlines. And the dark spots still stay guesswork. But... the chase is better than the catch  :bgdance:

[jabcat]

 :bigGrin:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi TB...  :cloud9:

This answer will take TWO parts...

PART ONE:

(TB)

Wrong comparison; your hand has not been given free will by your mind.

(WH) "Wrong", as compared to what?  YOU and Your opinion?

Nope! WRONG as compared to reality. You do not think with your hands. You were not given free reach, or free clutch, you were given free will. Try dealing with the subject.

:laughing7:  And I guess we are to ask YOU what "reality" is, are we? 

James [jabcat] and other mods have requested that we NOT discuss "FREE WILL"...

But in the end, until you produce SCRIPTURE which NOTES that God gave this "GIFT" to  men, it is YOU which are not basing your beliefs ...in "REALITY"...  :dontknow:  And your basis for this "GIFT" remains, OTHER than SCRIPTURAL and OTHER than "REALITY"... 

(WH)

It is WRITTEN that ALL HAVE SINNED... this was determined about YOU, before you drew a breath, bro.

Again, NOPE!
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, NEITHER HAVING DONE ANY good or EVIL, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Paul is not talking about men who are made to sin so God can bless them with forgiveness. He is talking about all men being made by God, some who choose good, some who choose evil, and in their goodness and in their evil, God makes a use for them all to his ultimate purpose.

You are reading so many things into this statement which observes Rom 9:11, that basically you found it upon FICTION and not REALITY, in order to gain your present position...

Paul says NOTHING of "choosing" anything in this verse... He is noting that the ELECTION of GOD is UNMOVEABLE by men...  That they SHALL DO, as HE HAS DECREED they SHALL... NOT as they [vainly think themselves to] "choose"... 

The entirety of Rom 9 is completely DEDICATED to this premise, which concludes -- :sigh: -- with your "stumbling" [Rom 9:31-32]:

Rom 9:16 --  So THEN, it is ...NOT... of him that willeth [man via his "choosing"], nor of him that runneth [man "living" his course] but OF GOD, that sheweth mercy...  This is noting that MAN in his "choosing and living", has NOTHING to do with the MERCY of GOD... which EXCLUSIVELY comes FROM HIM of HIS DECISION alone. :nod:

Rom 9:17   For the Scripture sayeth unto Pharaoh, even for this SAME PURPOSE, ...have, ...I... raised thee up, that I might show MY POWER, ...IN THEE... and that My name might be DECLARED throughout all the earth... ---> This verse is noting that this "chief evildoer" and "opposer" of GOD was RAISED UP (into that position), ...BY GOD!  Can you NOT see this, TB?  Are you so purposely BLIND, as to IGNORE that which is BEFORE YOUR EYES?

Rom 9:18 --  THEREFORE, ...hath HE, mercy on whom HE WILL, and whom HE WILL, ...HE HARDENETH --->  There is no "choosing" (done by men) mentioned here, Theo... all MERCY and HARDENING emerge of HIS WILL, not of the men that think themselves to "choose it" or not...  :dontknow:

Rom 9:19 -- Thou wilt say unto me, WHY does He yet find fault?  For WHO hath RESISTED, ...His WILL? ---> Come on Theo, are you really following this?  This verse raises the QUESTION -- that GOD is imposing HIS WILL upon us, yet STILL finds FAULT in us...  How can that be?  Well, to prove a point... which is done on a TEMPORAL basis, for our OWN GOOD:

Rom 9:20 -- Nay but O man, ...WHO are THOU that repliest [argues] against GOD?  Shall the thing FORMED, say unto Him that FORMED, ..."why hast THOU made ME, thus?" ---> Are you still with me, Theo?  Who are MEN, to question GOD?  Even though in the finite condition we find ourselves, we cannot POSSIBLY fathom or comprehend the BIG PIC?  Think about it bro, as you continue:

Rom 9:21 -- Hath not the POTTER -- POWER OVER the CLAY?  of the SAME LUMP, to make ONE vessel unto HONOR, and another unto DISHONOR? ---> GOD  noting that HE Himself, is making the "dishonorable portion" as well as the "honorable"... which said composition (honor and dishonor) is found in the very SAME LUMP of CLAY.

Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Paul is not saying God chooses to not have mercy on some because he made them evil, he is saying that because some men choose evil, God will use them for evil to bring about his ultimate purpose.

That is NOT what it is SAYING at ALL, Theo... YOU insert your belief INTO what is SAID...  NOTHING is stated in this passage about MEN CHOOSING anything.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Look at how and WHEN God determines a pot is good or evil. He does not predetermine goodness or evilness for a pot in the making. He waits until the finished product makes its intent known, THEN he pronounces it good or evil according to its own choices.

Not that you followed my address of what is SAID of these verses... but you limit GOD and His UNCHANGING and ETERNAL "determinations" -- to time as it unfolds, instead of the FACT that this chapter notes OTHERWISE.  Which PLAINLY NOTES, ...that Jacob and Esau were DESTINED to LIVE according to the notations of the  ELECTION of GOD which PRECEEDED their lives...

I will end this at this point and continue in -- PART TWO...

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Paul Hazelwood]

One thing I can honestly say is, I am so thankful that God gave me the knowledge of knowing that he is in control of my past, present, and future. I would honestly be a nervous wreck and probably go insane if I thought my salvation or my daily life for that matter was left in my hands.

God created us. He fashioned our minds, I had nothing to do with that. If I had I might be able to change some things different from what God had planned for me. How can we think for a moment that we weak humans can thwart the will of God? Why do we think the way we do? Why do we do the things we do? Have you ever looked back on your life and wondered why things happened or turned out the way they did?

Paul said what he wanted to do he found that he couldn't do and what he didn't want to do that is what he did. Why was that? If Paul was free to choose or do things different than what God had planned why couldn't he do what he wanted to do, or not do what he didn't want to do?

CHB

Why does Paul place the blame on sin and not God?

Same reason Eve placed the blame of what she did on the serpent. Because it is this sinful flesh that we dwell in that causes us to sin. Then you have to ask yourself, where did this sinful flesh come from?

(Rom. 7:14-25) Paul also said For I know that in me (that is in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing. (Verse 25) So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; BUT WITH THE FLESH THE LAW OF SIN.

CHB

Ask myself?  Why not show that Eve and Paul blamed God.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Theo...  :cloud9:

PART TWO:

Jeremiah 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

God tells us WHEN he determines a pot is good or evil, and it is NOT prior to its being formed.

This assertion you just made, ...is DIRECT CONTRADICTION to Isaiah 46:10 and Rom 4:17, as well as Rom 9:11 which was just addressed...   :mshock:

Also you CONSTRAIN and CONFINE, GOD (who is ETERNAL in His position), to His own CREATION of TIME and man, ...noting that His determinations are CONFINED to the "when's" of TIME and MAN,  ...rather than submitting to the ALMIGHTY to which ALL THINGS ...ARE... in submission:  1 Cor 15:22 -- 1 Cor 12:6 -- God does not WAIT upon us, for us to make "when" available to HIM...  In such placing of the "CART before the horse"... you stumble in your present understanding...

Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 IF THAT NATION, against whom I have pronounced, TURN from their evil, I WILL REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Unlike yourself, which picks and chooses what you address (and sidesteps many beneficial points), I shall continue this answer in detail...

(1)  GOD does NOT REPENT as does a man:  1 Sam 15:29

(2)  Isn't it interesting that GOD "thought" to DO EVIL, against man? 

None of this is dependent upon the [vain] choosing of these men (which are, of themselves UNABLE to choose GOOD -- for it is the GOODNESS of GOD which LEADS one to repentence -- Rom 2:4)... That which OCCURS in the Creation of GOD, is of HIS WORD... for He creates ALL THINGS within it... including ALL the events that take place, due to HIS DECLARATION, of them... which, said DECLARATION was noted by HIS WORD.

Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 IF IT DO EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I WILL REPENT OF THE GOOD, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Again, your spiritual lack, supposes to demote YHVH to the necessitation of REPENTENCE (regret/change), when He knew BEFOREHAND, all that would take place.  Which (to use your previous designation), ...is just INSANITY.

YOU say man cannot make his ways good, GOD says differently.
Jer 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return YE now every one from his evil way, and MAKE YOUR WAYS AND YOUR DOINGS GOOD.

How many times shall you argue against REASON, Theo?  You make SINFUL MEN, the creators/generators of GOOD within themselves, ...not NEEDING any assistance from GOD!  Please, brother!  Are you serious?  :mshock:

GOD TELLS US ABOUT THE DECISIONS OF MEN BEING A FACTOR IN WHO THEY BECOME
Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

How many MEN have DIED, Theo?  How many of them were, ...sinners?  :dontknow:

GOOD MEN WILL LIVE
Ezek 18:5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, 7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; 8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, 9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

Temporarily... but ALL succumb to the law of REAPING [death] what they have SOWN [sin]...

How many of those addressed, LIVED, Theo?  :dontknow:

How many of them were (of themselves), JUST?  :dontknow:

BAD MEN WILL DIE
Ezek 18:10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,
11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,
12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,
13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.

Again... same thing... He that lives by the SWORD, shall DIE by the SWORD... Matt 26:52

What do you say of a drunken, crime practicing, ATHIEST which lives to be 90, Theo?

SONS DO NOT HAVE TO FOLLOW THEIR FATHER'S FOOTSTEPS
Ezek 18:14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,
16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.

More short-sightedness...  :pitiful:

As I just said, How many of these actually WALKED in the "statutes of YHVH"? (i.e. were -- SIN-LESS?)

We live and are judged as individuals.  Because a father raises his son in poverty, does not mean the son shall remain in poverty.  That a father was a murderer, cannot prevent the call of GOD upon the son to be a preacher.

However, the SIN of the Father shall be VISITED upon the SON -- Ex 20:5 -- The SON shall be affected by the SIN of his FATHER, ...but the SON does not have to DIE for the SIN of his father...

FATHERS ARE NOT SAVED BY THEIR SONS BEHAVIOUR
Ezek 18:18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.

Though you continue to wander off the TOPIC... All DIE by the REAPING of DEATH due to the SOWING of their own SIN... :rolleye:

How many of these, DIED in their INIQUITY?  :dontknow:

BOTH FATHER AND SON CAN CHANGE, CHOOSE GOOD OVER EVIL, REPENT, AND LIVE
Ezek 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Who of these "returned" from his "ways"?

This is going nowhere... LIFE is within CHRIST for He is the [ONLY] WAY [we must needs walk] the TRUTH [we must needs apply] and the LIFE [that we must needs, live]...  Without HIS TRUTH in the LIFE... the workings of DEATH are afoot... and no number of postings of Scriptural notations from the OLD COVENANT shall change that.

NONE of those addressed in the Scriptures you posted, LIVED... they ALL DIED. (2 deaths, 1st -- in the spirit,  then... 2nd -- in the flesh)

BOTH CAN TURN FROM GOOD TO DO EVIL, AND DIE
Ezek 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

You make me wish to regret my promise to address the DETAILS of your words... Already addressed all of this... but a promise is a promise!  :cloud9:

How many of these are still LIVING, Theo?  :dontknow:


(WH)

Neither has YOUR "MIND" been given "free will" by GOD (if it had truly been given, it would be "DULY" noted as a "gift" in the WORD, however... it is NOT WRITTEN in the WORD, and is therefore reduced to being an ASSUMPTION made by YOU)...

Nope! "Free will" is a definitioin of a concept spoken by God. it is not the words found in scripture, but those which are recognized by all who read scripture. Just as "prodigal son" brings to men's minds, that son who wasted his inheritance in "riotous living" - yet "prodigal" is not found in scripture.

"Free will" is not found in scripture, but the concept "free will" brings to the mind IS taught in scripture, by virtue of the meaning inherent in "CHOOSE YE this day whom YE WILL serve. See it? "CHOOSE YE" whom "YE WILL." FREE WILL by definition, not by inclusion in the written account.

Like ...the trinity, ...the rapture, ...Eternal separation from God, ...fallen angels, ...Millennium, ...Spiritual Israel, ...Hell, and others... does your SUPPOSITION of these find NO SCRIPTURAL basis... nor notation.  Enough!

Though I am well able to argue against these (which you likely believe) as well as "FREE WILL"... the subject of "FREE WILL" vs "CDS" [Complete Divine Sovereignty] is NOT ALLOWED on TENTMAKER.

From this point on I shall observe that you are baiting, by continuing to propose "FREE WILL"... and if you mention it again, I will report the post...  :sigh:

The STAFF and OWNER of TENTMAKER does not wish us to discuss this... so whattaya say, let's drop it and get back to the TOPIC?

(WH)

What actually IS "DULY" NOTED and ACTUALLY WRITTEN in the WORD, is that you were (as has everyone) ...CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- as well as inserted -- IN ADAM (into his sinfulness) -- Rom 5:12 -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- certainly NEITHER of these which BIND YOU to SIN and DEATH, were "your call", bro Theo...   

Re-read Jeremiah 18:7-10
"AT WHAT INSTANT I SHALL SPEAK concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 IF THAT NATION, against whom I have pronounced, TURN from their evil, I WILL REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 18:9 And AT WHAT INSTANT I SHALL SPEAK concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 IF IT DO EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I WILL REPENT OF THE GOOD, wherewith I said I would benefit them."

That which OCCURS in "REALITY"... IS the "ACTUAL REALITY" which OCCURS... no "if's, coulda's, woulda's, or shoulda's"...  All these are FICTIONAL and VAIN IMAGINATIONS.

What was DECLARED [by the WORD] to OCCUR, ...DID. 

End of story.  :grave:

(WH)

(2)  You "say" that I "TOTALLY ignore many scriptures" in order to make "my doctrine palatable" -- yet you name NONE... 

I think you will find both Ezekial 18 and Jeremiah 18 in my prior posts. I simply did not repost them due to lenghty posting. AND the fact they were ignorded previously.

More of the same...  You have not proven by ANY of the notations of Ez 18 or Jer 18, that UR is "erroneous",  ...nor have you proven that the WILL of GOD, can be "thwarted" by men, in the presentation of them!  :hijacked:

(WH)

(4)  You are dependent upon a belief in "FREE WILL" as a "gift" from God, but fail to note where this is WRITTEN... 

Nope! Written again and again, "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve" has been referenced and quoted throughout.

NOPE... any dog "chooses"... any computer "chooses"... any insect "chooses"... this does not designate that these, because they in fact "CHOOSE", that this ability is FREE, nor that it is anything other than STRICTLY according to the WILL of YHVH, regardless of the "choice" manifested"...

I have already given instance of PHARAOH, as "choosing" due to the HARDENING of GOD... which was not included in the forethought of PHARAOH's "choice", ...rather "his choice" was IMPOSED upon and affected BY GOD, who WORKS ALL THINGS according to HIS OWN WILL... Live with it.

I think both of us have either made (or not made) our points concerning this UNBIBLICAL sidestep ["free will"]...

As I said... any further discussion concerning "FREE WILL", will be a moderation matter...

I would be more than happy to accomodate you, but it is NOT ALLOWED! :eyebrow:

I really do not see any purpose in continuing this dialogue, as we are diametrically opposed in the application of what is found in scripture. I will move on.

Thank God...  :heat:  ...pretty much, all you did in this reply was sidestep the topic...  :offtopic:

Why not try to address the words THELEMA and BOULEMA as the TOPIC suggested, Theo?

...willieH  :icon_king:

[CHB]

Ask myself?  Why not show that Eve and Paul blamed God.

If our body of flesh is sin who put us in them? God did.

It also says that "God tempts no man" and God doesn't directly but because of circumstances and things that God puts in our path we are tempted. All paths comes from God and all leads back to him.

Thats just like everyone bowing the knee and the tongue confessing. God doesn't DIRECTLY make everyone bow and confess but he causes things to work out so they will. He reveals himself and by showing the world how much he loves them, everyone will be happy to bow and confess. Now, did God cause it or did man?

CHB

[Beloved Servant]

Almighty God
Almighty God
Almighty God

Thank you for showing your Sons that there is nothing greater than YOU.
And that in You we have our Faith, Hope and Love.

Your mercy endures forever, it has no beginning nor end.
And the proof of Love is our Lord Jesus Christ Who, lowered Himself to redeem the wonder of Your creation.
Amen.
Where is Eden?
Christ is Eden — the overlap!

[Paul Hazelwood]

Ask myself?  Why not show that Eve and Paul blamed God.

If our body of flesh is sin who put us in them? God did.

It also says that "God tempts no man" and God doesn't directly but because of circumstances and things that God puts in our path we are tempted. All paths comes from God and all leads back to him.

Thats just like everyone bowing the knee and the tongue confessing. God doesn't DIRECTLY make everyone bow and confess but he causes things to work out so they will. He reveals himself and by showing the world how much he loves them, everyone will be happy to bow and confess. Now, did God cause it or did man?

CHB

I appreciate that you believe scripture in the way you do.  However there is a reason I have the point of view I have.  One reason is that we find no one in scripture glorifying God for their own evil deeds.

Please show Eve or Paul stating the same kinds of things you are saying.  It is a simple request in order to help me consider what you believe to be truth in the manner in which you present it.

[Beloved Servant]

Please wash our feet Father as your Holy Son has washed ours.
Then please Father, let not the questions arise, after, we are clean.

[eaglesway]

I personally believe that there is a paradox in the issue of whether we choose or God chooses for us that goes beyond what we can see and define with our minds and words.

"My thoughts are higher than your thoughts"
"Who has known the mind of the Lord"
"We see through a glass darkly"

The importance of choosing, in the individual response to God, is everywhere born witness to in Scripture. This is the truth in the limited experience and lower perspective of man in the mortal plane. God has created us within it. It is unassailable and unalterable. No matter what I "know" about the overall eternal perspective and irreversible purposes of the Almighty- He has created this dichotomy of choice, within the mystery, so no one may boast- "You(God) are justified when you judge."

However, when we try to limit God to operating within the confines of this narrow(by comparison) stewardship of time within which he has placed us, we move into error. Yes we must choose. So it has been appointed. No, we cannot clearly see how God has established the outworking of His predetermined will as it manifests through our wills- but we know that He cannot be controverted by man or angel. The scriptures also everywhere testify to this. How should I, a mere man, sort it all out in this life? I am better off learning to choose properly the works God has chosen for me as a son. But our choosing is to lead us into rest, and that rest is found in those works "that were prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them".

Yes, it seems that a fatalism comes from some proponents of God's absolute sovereignty when they somehow begin to believe that they see from God's unlimited perspective and that others should see as they do. They understand perhaps that God is sovereign, but forget that they still must make choices with eternal implications every day.

Often, the result is the two sides of the coin are seeking to shear themselves from one another into two pieces, neither of which is of any use in God's economy.

Yes Theo, God has said we must choose in countless places and ways and I agree if we disregard that imperative there is great loss to be had. God has also said that He "has chosen and predestined" and though we cannot see the two as one- he can. We will understand it better by and by. As regards His clear declarations concerning His eternal purposes, you seem to be willing to ignore the scriptures that apply to things God has set forth from before the foundations of the world- that Christ would be slain and raised providing resurrection for everyone who died in Adam (Ro 11:32;1 Cor 15:22;1Jn 2:2), that all things will be summed up in Christ(Eph 1:10, 1 Cor 15:28; Col 1:20), that God would fill all in all(Ro 11:36,1 Cor 15:28) and that "every living creature in heaven, on earth and under the earth" will give Him glory(Rev 5:13;Phil 2:10).

So debating the various perspectives on God's absolute will and man's stewardship of time and life have merit and are interesting- but they have no impact on the Almighty's thelema or His boulema- He will do what He will do because He is who He is. What we believe will have no bearing on it, and in the final outworking He will be all in all, because He desires it so & wills it so.
    Peace, John

[Theo Book]

I personally believe that there is a paradox in the issue of whether we choose or God chooses for us that goes beyond what we can see and define with our minds and words.

"My thoughts are higher than your thoughts"
"Who has known the mind of the Lord"
"We see through a glass darkly"

The importance of choosing, in the individual response to God, is everywhere born witness to in Scripture. This is the truth in the limited experience and lower perspective of man in the mortal plane. God has created us within it. It is unassailable and unalterable. No matter what I "know" about the overall eternal perspective and irreversible purposes of the Almighty- He has created this dichotomy of choice, within the mystery, so no one may boast- "You(God) are justified when you judge."

However, when we try to limit God to operating within the confines of this narrow(by comparison) stewardship of time within which he has placed us, we move into error. Yes we must choose. So it has been appointed. No, we cannot clearly see how God has established the outworking of His predetermined will as it manifests through our wills- but we know that He cannot be controverted by man or angel. The scriptures also everywhere testify to this. How should I, a mere man, sort it all out in this life? I am better off learning to choose properly the works God has chosen for me as a son. But our choosing is to lead us into rest, and that rest is found in those works "that were prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them".

Yes, it seems that a fatalism comes from some proponents of God's absolute sovereignty when they somehow begin to believe that they see from God's unlimited perspective and that others should see as they do. They understand perhaps that God is sovereign, but forget that they still must make choices with eternal implications every day.

Often, the result is the two sides of the coin are seeking to shear themselves from one another into two pieces, neither of which is of any use in God's economy.

Yes Theo, God has said we must choose in countless places and ways and I agree if we disregard that imperative there is great loss to be had. God has also said that He "has chosen and predestined" and though we cannot see the two as one- he can. We will understand it better by and by. As regards His clear declarations concerning His eternal purposes, you seem to be willing to ignore the scriptures that apply to things God has set forth from before the foundations of the world- that Christ would be slain and raised providing resurrection for everyone who died in Adam (Ro 11:32;1 Cor 15:22;1Jn 2:2), that all things will be summed up in Christ(Eph 1:10, 1 Cor 15:28; Col 1:20), that God would fill all in all(Ro 11:36,1 Cor 15:28) and that "every living creature in heaven, on earth and under the earth" will give Him glory(Rev 5:13;Phil 2:10).

So debating the various perspectives on God's absolute will and man's stewardship of time and life have merit and are interesting- but they have no impact on the Almighty's thelema or His boulema- He will do what He will do because He is who He is. What we believe will have no bearing on it, and in the final outworking He will be all in all, because He desires it so & wills it so.
    Peace, John

Best response yet. Thanks.

[Paul Hazelwood]

So debating the various perspectives on God's absolute will and man's stewardship of time and life have merit and are interesting- but they have no impact on the Almighty's thelema or His boulema- He will do what He will do because He is who He is. What we believe will have no bearing on it, and in the final outworking He will be all in all, because He desires it so & wills it so.

I have not really met anyone yet that believes our debates or opinions or what we argue for or against changes God but it sure can mean the difference between someone being in bondage and someone being free.

If God just does what he does and nothing else matters then most of the bible is pointless.