willieH: Hello to all... :hithere:
Hey... I was in a discussion on another board... and it was contended by some on the board that the
WILL of GOD can be FOILED or THWARTED by men...
They argued that many UR supporting verses contain the words THELO or THELEMA, which express the "WILL" of God, more as a "DESIRE" (which can be frustrated by men), ...rather than an INTENT... :mshock:
I will post a summary of what was said, and what I had to say to them about it... but I would like to invite anyone interested in this subject, to discuss this...
Peace... :Peace:
...willieH :cloud9:
Re: The WILL of GOD... Can it be "thwarted" by men?
I'll give'em some translations.
Ekegusii (Kenya) Aa
Emakhua (Africa) Kha-
Emdimbich (California USA) Gadu
Enga (Papua New Guinea) Daá
English (Britain, Australia, America) No
English (America) [informal] Nope
English (America) [informal] Uh-uh
English [Strine dialect] (Australia) Nut
English [Texan] (Texas United States) Naw
English [Michigan slang] (Michigan USA) Nah
English [Michigan slang] (Michigan USA) No way
English [Middle English] (old Britain) Na
English [old English] (older Britain) Nese
[Eskimo, see Inuktitut and Inuttut]
Esperanto (international use) Ne
Esselen [Henshaw] (California USA) Me'-tea
Esselen [Henshaw] (California USA) A'na
Esselen [La Perouse] (California USA) Maal
Estonian (Estonia) Ei
Estonian (Saaremaa Estonia) Ep
Estonian (Saaremaa Estonia) Es
Estonian (Viru-Nigula Estonia) Eiba
Estonian (Võrumaa Estonia) Eih
Estonian (Võrumaa Estonia) Õih
Etruscan (old Europe) Ein
Eudeve (Mexico) Quéta
Even (Russia) Aan
Even (Russia) Aach
Evenki (Russia) Aachin
Ewondo (Cameroun) Koa
And that's just the E's.
willieH: Hello everybody... :cloud9:
Here is a condensed synopsis of the interaction:
It all grinded to a halt, on the presentation of the word "BOULEMA" as is used in
2 Pet 3:9These guys heartily argued against UR... and in doing so, ...they maintained that BOULEMA -- #G1014 (or derivitives of it such as BOULE #G1012 -- BOULEUO #G1011), are an INSISTENT and UNALTERABLE communication concerning the "WILL" [purpose/intent] of God. And that THELO #G2309 / THELEMA #G2307 is merely a (watered down) DESIRE (rather than "WILL") which is often FOILED, FRUSTRATED and THWARTED... by the doings of men...
This is faulty to begin with, for anything/everything about
YHVH is COMPLETE, PERMANENT, PERFECT and UNCHANGING...
He is COMPLETE in ALL aspects... and so even His "desires" (which some theological minds hope to "water down" by proposing the WILL of God as is stated in many UR supporting verses, is an ALTERABLE designation)... are STILL COMPLETE, and STILL PERMANENT... and shall STILL find FULFILLMENT...
Otherwise it can be said that
YHVH God has INCOMPLETE and IMPERFECT "desires"... which can be neutralized by beings which HE created, leaving Him FOREVER, ...UNFULFILLED.
IOW... If a "desire" of God goes UNFULFILLED, it is FOREVER or PERFECTLY UNFULFILLED... which in turn renders Him "incomplete" in this capacity... This is an UNACCEPTABLE [carnally minded] portrayal of one which is ETERNALLY, and PERFECTLY COMPLETE...
I noted to them that "THELEMA" appears translated "WILL" in the Lord's prayer in --
Matthew 6:10 & Luke 11:2 -- and that this "thelo/thelema" arguement which proposes the "WILL/desire" of GOD is something that MAN can THWART or FOIL, is therefore faulty...
If indeed, they are correct, ...and the "WILL" [desire] of God CAN be resisted, thwarted, and FOILED ...then it could be said that the "THELEMA" [will/desire] as noted in the Lord's prayer [
Matt 6:10 / Luke 11:2], (which they proposed can be frustrated by MAN)... could be (and somewhere in eternity, might be) THWARTED in HEAVEN as well... :rolleye: I don't buy it! :mnah:
This "DESIRE" contention also argues against --
Isaiah 44:28 -- Isaiah 46:10 -- which twice note that
YHVH shall
do ALL His PLEASURE [CHEPHETS --#H2356 = pleasure/desire]...
TWO Scriptures which testify that
NONE of "His DESIRE" shall go UNDONE (i.e. unfulfilled)...
To state that the PERFECT DESIRE, or WILL of
YHVH can be FOILED by man, ...is ERRONEOUS and INEFFECTUAL in concept, as said "desires" have to do with a COMPLETE and PERFECT and ALMIGHTY being...
BOULEMA (or its derivitives such as BOULE, BOULEUO) cannot be used in an "UNCERTAIN" sense, for they assert, PURPOSE and INTENT... these establish a PERMANENT and UNALTERABLE "WILL" [purpose] of God... in their presentation...
So that which is stated in --
2 Pet 3:9 -- cannot be refuted by SELECTIVE or INCOMPLETE Salvation teachings, which ignore the REASON presented within this verse (and elsewhere) that notes the WILL of GOD is that...
He is "NOT WILLING [BOULEMA] that ANY should perish, but that ALL [led by the GOODNESS of God -- Rom 2:4] shall come to REPENTENCE"...
Their "answer" was to kick me off "their board"... without addressing it... :sigh:
What do you guys think? :Chinscratch:
...willieH :happygrin:
willieH: Hi James... :cloud9:
Great answer! :laughhand:
Quote from: jabcat on April 20, 2010, 04:11:16 AM
Re: The WILL of GOD... Can it be "thwarted" by men?
I'll give'em some translations.
Ekegusii (Kenya) Aa
Emakhua (Africa) Kha-
Emdimbich (California USA) Gadu
Enga (Papua New Guinea) Daá
English (Britain, Australia, America) No
English (America) [informal] Nope
English (America) [informal] Uh-uh
English [Strine dialect] (Australia) Nut
English [Texan] (Texas United States) Naw
English [Michigan slang] (Michigan USA) Nah
English [Michigan slang] (Michigan USA) No way
English [Middle English] (old Britain) Na
English [old English] (older Britain) Nese
[Eskimo, see Inuktitut and Inuttut]
Esperanto (international use) Ne
Esselen [Henshaw] (California USA) Me'-tea
Esselen [Henshaw] (California USA) A'na
Esselen [La Perouse] (California USA) Maal
Estonian (Estonia) Ei
Estonian (Saaremaa Estonia) Ep
Estonian (Saaremaa Estonia) Es
Estonian (Viru-Nigula Estonia) Eiba
Estonian (Võrumaa Estonia) Eih
Estonian (Võrumaa Estonia) Õih
Etruscan (old Europe) Ein
Eudeve (Mexico) Quéta
Even (Russia) Aan
Even (Russia) Aach
Evenki (Russia) Aachin
Ewondo (Cameroun) Koa
And that's just the E's.
:laughing7:
Thought you might like that. :bigGrin:
We have a thread going "Who is satan". Makes me want to ask, "Who is God"? and/or "Who do they think God is?"
Who is God? Does He hesitate, waver? Is he weak, doubtful, insecure, indecisive, indeterminate, uncertain, unclear, unconvinced, undecided, undependable, unreliable, unstable, untrustworthy, vacillating, contradictory, inconclusive, feeble, faulty, forceless, ineffective, inept, unbelievable, unprepared, unqualified?
If so, then His will can be thwarted. Might He let us "go our own way" for awhile to teach us a lesson and ultimately bring us closer to Him? I think so. But if God says something's going to be, then I consider it good as done. :thumbsup:
Ephesians
1:9 when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose
1:10 for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him.
To thwart God's will is to thwart Christ.
It was tried in the past — they failed.
And in all their their failing, the Father's will was fulfilled as established from the foundation. :bigGrin:
He is NOT WILLING that ANY should PERISH, but that ALL shall come to REPENTANCE. :thumbsup:
There cannot be true repentance without divine MERCY.
peacemaker
How can Gods will be thwarted in any way when He works WITHIN His creation to get exactly what He wants? Isn't it Him willing and doing His good pleasure from within our very beings?
For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. phil2.13
cp
ETs are funny people. If you say God isn't in control or all powerfull you are a heretic.
But if you say God is in full control you are a heretic too.
If you say it's God desire to save all but 95% are lost you show Biblical insight.
But if you claim that the will of a all powerful God to save all actually works out you are a heretic.
I think it's good news. All those people on the wide road have thwarted God's will.
And when they are sentenced to LoF they likely won't listen either so they just enter heaven....
You know it has been done before. Satan already tricked 1/3 of the angels and 95% of humanity. It's just a matter of time 100% of creation belongs to satan.
For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. phil2.13
Claypot that must mean God is giving it His best shot. But 95% chance the desire of satan will prevail.
:sigh:
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 20, 2010, 04:34:48 PM
ETs are funny people. If you say God isn't in control or all powerfull you are a heretic.
But if you say God is in full control you are a heretic too.
If you say it's God desire to save all but 95% are lost you show Biblical insight.
But if you claim that the will of a all powerful God to save all actually works out you are a heretic.
I think it's good news. All those people on the wide road have thwarted God's will.
And when they are sentenced to LoF they likely won't listen either so they just enter heaven....
You know it has been done before. Satan already tricked 1/3 of the angels and 95% of humanity. It's just a matter of time 100% of creation belongs to satan.
For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. phil2.13
Claypot that must mean God is giving it His best shot. But 95% chance the desire of satan will prevail.
:sigh:
Excellent post WW and I see what you are saying and how you are saying it and to respond to your last statement I would say that if it is GOD doing the WILLING IN US and the doing, who can thwart it? Only God Himself could and I think He knows about a house divided against itself. Why would He want to thwart Himself anyway?
Like you say WW, people will back up what they believe any way they can, be it logical or not.
cp
Quote from: claypot on April 20, 2010, 05:12:23 PMOnly God Himself could and I think He knows about a house divided against itself.
Even worse that means heaven will end. God's rulership will end/fall.
The original house/kingdom is that of Father. He was the first so it takes not much imagination He got the first house. And that house/kingdom is devided because satan fell :blahgreen:
So satan's kingdom will prosper because the kingdom of Father fell. It's likely not what ETs agree with, but it is what they believe.
If losing 95% of the kingdom isn't devision I wonder what is. Going from 100% to 5% basicly means God has been dethroned.
Another thing is that God knew what His creation would/will do. If they are really rebelious it means Father created the division of His own kingdom by his devine will.
Many views can be defended when zooming in on them. But most of the views simply contradict.
I assume many ETs daily say these words from the "Lord's Prayer"
NIVMat 6:10 your kingdom come, your will/thelema be done on earth as it is in heaven..
And they understand it like:
ETMat 6:10 your kingdom come, possibly the things you want will happen on earth as it is in heaven.
The prayer of worship almost starts with saying that you don't have much trust in His powers.
That doesn't make much sense.
Commentary
NET: Your kingdom come represents the hope for the full manifestation of God's promised rule.
-> If His will is not done He has broken a promise
Gill: Christ says "thy will"; not the will of wicked men, nor the will of Satan, nor a man's own will, but the will of God:
-> Gill is an ET scholar but believes the will of God can't be bend.
-> He adds a twist to it by stating God (also) has a secret will. Ofcourse that allows for hellish things.
-> But even then it means God will is unbendeble.
I've read a few other commentaries on the verse and all ET scholars seem to agree God will can't be thwarted.
Of course they in other commentaries say His will is that most rot in hell. But still ET scholars seem to believe in an unbreakeble will of Father.
This kind of word games can never be won. There is enough to support many opposing views. The only thing to resolve it is aligning all verses. But threads go off-topic much to soon. So no progress will be made.
Hey WW, good thoughts as usual. Let me add what has given me considerable comfort lately.
If it is indeed God who is working in us to do and to will of His good pleasure then I see even our (everyones) endless debating a work of God and it pleases me to be a part of it. It gives me courage and assurance and even the joyful willingness to now debate and lecture and expose and learn and so on. I do not seem to get frustrated like I once did because it is God I am ultimately dealing with, even in my opposers.
Like I said before, if all of us were in the area at the time Josephs brothers threw him into the pit I'm sure some of us would have run to get a ladder and get him out and take care of him thus thwarting Gods intended purpose. I think many of us do this with His words. We think we are right when we are actually working against God but the fact still remains, Joseph, as well as Josephs brothers, were all being worked in by God to do His will and good pleasure.
I am starting to really love those who I feel are abusing me as I see God in them arranging something grand for me.
Do you understand any of what I am trying to say here?
cp
Quote from: claypot on April 20, 2010, 08:51:27 PMIf it is indeed God who is working in us to do and to will of His good pleasure then I see even our (everyones) endless debating a work of God and it pleases me to be a part of it.
So you think God makes all those typos in my posts? :laughing7:
You must be a marred claypot to think such things :fool:
Seriously now. How far you take that "God works in us?"
Am I talking to claypot or talking to Father? You could ask the same question to me. I just can't believe Father has taken 930 nicknames on this forum and is debating Himself. And because none fully agree it means He's wrong with at least 929 nicks.
I think the answer goes to much into the "free will territory" so perhaps it's better not to answer...
QuoteI do not seem to get frustrated like I once did because it is God I am ultimately dealing with, even in my opposers.
Usually I just enjoy finding an answer. Sometimes I feel 'attacked'. I'm still unable to figure out if it feels as my pride/personallity is attacked or that I care for the UR teachings/Father is attacked. That very hard for me to figure out.
QuoteLike I said before, if all of us were in the area at the time Josephs brothers threw him into the pit I'm sure some of us would have run to get a ladder and get him out and take care of him thus thwarting Gods intended purpose. I think many of us do this with His words. We think we are right when we are actually working against God but the fact still remains, Joseph, as well as Josephs brothers, were all being worked in by God to do His will and good pleasure.
Wouldn't it be more accurate if you wrote:
"...thus thwarting what we think Gods intended purpose is..."
QuoteI am starting to really love those who I feel are abusing me as I see God in them arranging something grand for me.
I think that arrangement has made before the dawn of time.
QuoteDo you understand any of what I am trying to say here?
Yes. But it's conflicting for me. How can God arrange something grand for you if you did nothing to earn it. You were just a passive lump of clay turned in a claypot by an active Potter....
For me WW your confliction there is the very definition of what "grace" is.
That's what makes it so grand and gracious..............because I did nothing to earn it!
cp
Quote from: claypot on April 20, 2010, 08:51:27 PM
If it is indeed God who is working in us to do and to will of His good pleasure then I see even our (everyones) endless debating a work of God and it pleases me to be a part of it.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 20, 2010, 09:44:31 PM
So you think God makes all those typos in my posts? :laughing7:
You must be a marred claypot to think such things :fool:
Seriously now. How far you take that "God works in us?"
God does not make all the typos, you do. God works in YOU TO DO. There are reasons why you make typos and those reasons are worked by God for His good pleasure.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 20, 2010, 09:44:31 PM
That's just the point. How far do you take it that God works in us.
Excellent question and one that has amazing projections.
All is out of God, for God and through God.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 20, 2010, 09:44:31 PM
Am I talking to claypot or talking to Father? You could ask the same question to me. I just can't believe Father has taken 930 nicknames on this forum and is debating Himself. And because none fully agree it means He's wrong with at least 929 nicks.
I think the answer goes to much into the "free will territory" so perhaps it's better not to answer...
No, not free will territory. Just like Joseph being thrown into a pit was done by God via the brothers so are all the wrong answers caused by God via the forum people.
cp
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 20, 2010, 09:44:31 PM
I think the answer goes to much into the "free will territory" so perhaps it's better not to answer...
No free will terminology needed. A man making a choice of his own will has nothing to do with thwarting Gods will.
When God made you and me, he knew every choice we would ever make, God prepared the way for them all. We still made those choices, and God knowing that in advance has nothing to do with us being unable to make those choices, it has nothing to do with God controlling us, it simply is God already knowing what we would do and he prepared for what we would do so that his will to save all man kind was not thwarted at all.
I have comitted evil acts in my lifetime. God knew I would, he prepared for those acts so his glory would prevail over them just like he did with pharoah. God did not "react" to me in the sense that he had to figure something else out God prepared the way for the path he already knew I would take.
Think about it. If God knows how many hairs are on our heads he had to have planned for them to be there. If he knows how many hairs are there, he knows how many have fallen out. Think how little and unimportant a little hair is. If God is concerned with a hair how much more concerned is he with our daily decisions. I think God knows and planned every dot and tittle that is written on this forum.
When Jesus said "of mine own self I can do NOTHING", what does nothing mean? In my dictionary it says "a thing that does not exist".
CHB
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 21, 2010, 01:24:03 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 20, 2010, 09:44:31 PM
I think the answer goes to much into the "free will territory" so perhaps it's better not to answer...
No free will terminology needed. A man making a choice of his own will has nothing to do with thwarting Gods will.
When God made you and me, he knew every choice we would ever make, God prepared the way for them all. We still made those choices, and God knowing that in advance has nothing to do with us being unable to make those choices, it has nothing to do with God controlling us, it simply is God already knowing what we would do and he prepared for what we would do so that his will to save all man kind was not thwarted at all.
I have comitted evil acts in my lifetime. God knew I would, he prepared for those acts so his glory would prevail over them just like he did with pharoah. God did not "react" to me in the sense that he had to figure something else out God prepared the way for the path he already knew I would take.
Paul, you have just perfectly quoted Phil 2.13 which states it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. You used many more words to do so but you did it.
God knew every decision we would be confronted with because it is His work in us that causes the decisions to arise. He knows what choice we will make because He not only knows every decision we will be confronted with but He knows our own personal make-ups perfectly. He knows all this intimately because it is HE who is working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure and we know He will accomplish His good pleasure perfectly.
You committed evil acts in your time and so did Josephs brothers and they and you will be accountable for those decisions but it is Gods ultimate willing and doing.
Such good words Paul.
cp
WillieH... PM me the forum
Paul
Quote from: CHB on April 21, 2010, 02:28:52 AM
Think about it. If God knows how many hairs are on our heads he had to have planned for them to be there. If he knows how many hairs are there, he knows how many have fallen out. Think how little and unimportant a little hair is. If God is concerned with a hair how much more concerned is he with our daily decisions. I think God knows and planned every dot and tittle that is written on this forum.
When Jesus said "of mine own self I can do NOTHING", what does nothing mean? In my dictionary it says "a thing that does not exist".
CHB
CHB, I'm hearin ya. I'm really hearin ya.
The implications are phenomenal.
cp
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 21, 2010, 01:24:03 AM
No free will terminology needed. A man making a choice of his own will has nothing to do with thwarting Gods will.
When God made you and me, he knew every choice we would ever make,
Agreed.
QuoteGod prepared the way for them all.
So God forsaw trillions of choices His creation would make and based His plan on those choices?
QuoteWe still made those choices, and God knowing that in advance has nothing to do with us being unable to make those choices, it has nothing to do with God controlling us, it simply is God already knowing what we would do and he prepared for what we would do so that his will to save all man kind was not thwarted at all.
I can agree with that. But where does the "God works in us" fits in?
To me "God works in us" is an active God.
But in your description God just knows it will work out fine. That's good but also a passive God that just waits instead of "working in us"
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 21, 2010, 08:59:46 AM
So God forsaw trillions of choices His creation would make and based His plan on those choices?
That's how I see it. And how does God foresee trillions of choices His creation will make? It is He who works IN US to will.
Quote from: PaulWe still made those choices, and God knowing that in advance has nothing to do with us being unable to make those choices, it has nothing to do with God controlling us, it simply is God already knowing what we would do and he prepared for what we would do so that his will to save all man kind was not thwarted at all.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 21, 2010, 08:59:46 AM
To me "God works in us" is an active God.
But in your description God just knows it will work out fine. That's good but also a passive God that just waits instead of "working in us"
I agree with you WW. God doesn't just know things will work out fine, He works in us to assure all things will work out fine. This is HIS painting, HIS production. We are HIS workmanship.
Eph 2.10cp
But is He still working right now?
For example a potter makes a pot of clay. Then the potter just sits back and waits while the pot dries.
It's a bit like: Did God make the flowers in my garden personally? Or did He "just" created law of nature that took care of my flowers?
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 21, 2010, 03:00:34 PM
But is He still working right now?
Yes, God is eternally 'working' and eternally at 'rest'. God is eternal. God is. God will always be working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. I don't think us
getting saved is the end, I believe it is just the beginning.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 21, 2010, 03:00:34 PM
For example a potter makes a pot of clay. Then the potter just sits back and waits while the pot dries.
God never just sits back, He is always in us, enjoying 'us'. He is in the drying process too. This gives Him pleasure IMO.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 21, 2010, 03:00:34 PM
It's a bit like: Did God make the flowers in my garden personally? Or did He "just" created law of nature that took care of my flowers?
God made the flowers in your garden personally because they are the work of His heart yet you and the laws of nature are His vehicles.
Do you understand or am I bumbling again with my words?
cp
boulema, thelema :dontknow: boulema, thelema :swordfight:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will(thelema):
(Eph 1:10-11)
If He works all things according to the counsel of His thelema- it don't matter whether you define it as desire or intent- His desire and His intent are one in that He causes all things to work after the counsel of His own THELEMA
So, IMO His boulema is that His thelema be fulfilled :boogie:
boulema, thelema :handshake: boulema, thelema :high5:
:thumbsup: everything temporary has a cycle , when complete , glories in that moment
you have a garden and the flowers are to fade away , but the hope is they will come back next season in the same glory .
the cycle does start over and over again and again or it dies and ends
but God who is the Master of all these things has a plan that works eternally for the good of all things He alone understands purpose and that is when men and devils /a god of the temporary ..dont have a clue
how something can remain and Glorify God forever
His Work completes us and fills the void / empty
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Isa 27:3 I the LORD do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest [any] hurt it, I will keep it night and day.
:icon_flower:
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 21, 2010, 08:59:46 AM
So God forsaw trillions of choices His creation would make and based His plan on those choices?
It is probably not exactly like that. It is more along the lines that God created us knowing the only way to come to him was through the unique path that must be. That is an inherant part of being created that even God cannot change. This is why God grieves, he knows what we will go through, and he can only prepare the way so that we are made whole. Some get offended by that because they think it is limiting God, but our perception of limits is irrelevant.
Pr 16:9 A man's heart devises his way, Yet Yahweh establishes his steps.
Pr 5:21 For the ways of a man are before the eyes of Yahweh, Who prepares the way for all his routes.
These verses fit perfectly with that idea. The potter and the clay, sure we can take that passage to confine it to a certain believe, but the potter and the clay is only a piece of the picture. Does clay see? Does it speak? Does it know things? No, so we are clay in one sense concerning scriptural explanations, but not clay in the total sense.
QuoteTo me "God works in us" is an active God.
But in your description God just knows it will work out fine. That's good but also a passive God that just waits instead of "working in us
None of what I said prevents his activity. What we would like his activity to be is another matter.
Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Who has been His counselor?
Who has given to Him that He should repay?
For from Him and to Him and through Him are all things, to whom be the glory throughout the ages.
When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
I am glad that some things defy definition- transcending by their very nature what can be diagrammed in this present incompletion. Otherwise I might just languish forever at the tree of knowledge even as the Father calls me further on into trust, hope and love. Come all ye who thirst, drink freely of the water of life.
Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon. "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts. "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it bear and sprout, And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it. "For you will go out with joy And be led forth with peace; The mountains and the hills will break forth into shouts of joy before you, And all the trees of the field will clap their hands. "Instead of the thorn bush the cypress will come up, And instead of the nettle the myrtle will come up, And it will be a memorial to the LORD, For an everlasting sign which will not be cut off."
(Isa 55:6-13)
AMEN!! :thumbsup: :icon_flower:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 21, 2010, 05:05:42 PM
It is probably not exactly like that. It is more along the lines that God created us knowing the only way to come to him was through the unique path that must be. That is an inherant part of being created that even God cannot change. This is why God grieves, he knows what we will go through, and he can only prepare the way so that we are made whole. Some get offended by that because they think it is limiting God, but our perception of limits is irrelevant.
Good words Paul. God grieves. Can we even imagine that? Yet if He is so intimate as to be working in us then He must 'feel' our sorrows as His own in some fashion.
Pr 16:9 A man's heart devises his way, Yet Yahweh establishes his steps.
Pr 5:21 For the ways of a man are before the eyes of Yahweh, Who prepares the way for all his routes.Perfect, of course.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 21, 2010, 05:05:42 PM
These verses fit perfectly with that idea. The potter and the clay, sure we can take that passage to confine it to a certain believe, but the potter and the clay is only a piece of the picture. Does clay see? Does it speak? Does it know things? No, so we are clay in one sense concerning scriptural explanations, but not clay in the total sense.
We are 'clay' that is being worked on from within by none other than God Himself to become so much more than I can imagine or think.
QuoteTo me "God works in us" is an active God.
Amen
cp
Good usage of smilies in post#28 :thumbsup:
:winkgrin:
Quote from: eaglesway on April 21, 2010, 06:32:53 PM
So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it
Very clear.
But I fear it won't convince those who think Father's will can be thwarted. They just change their story a little.
Instead of "man can thwart God's will" they just change it into something like "it's God's will that mankind does what it likes even if not liked by God"
The whole debate about thwarting God's will isn't as if they care His will can be thwarted. Without mankind being able to thwart God's will it get even harder to defend ET.
Simply because it would mean God is in full control and kicks people into hell because they were so perfectly controlled by Him.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 21, 2010, 05:05:42 PM
QuoteTo me "God works in us" is an active God.
But in your description God just knows it will work out fine. That's good but also a passive God that just waits instead of "working in us
None of what I said prevents his activity. What we would like his activity to be is another matter.
Then I can only hope He doesn't charge overtime. It would take me a hell of along time to pay back. I hope His Son will help me out a little with the payments :whistleshake:
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 21, 2010, 06:51:10 PM
Good usage of smilies in post#28 :thumbsup:
:winkgrin:
Quote from: eaglesway on April 21, 2010, 06:32:53 PM
So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it
Very clear.
But I fear it won't convince those who think Father's will can be thwarted. They just change their story a little.
Instead of "man can thwart God's will" they just change it into something like "it's God's will that mankind does what it likes even if not liked by God"
The whole debate about thwarting God's will isn't as if they care His will can be thwarted. Without mankind being able to thwart God's will it get even harder to defend ET.
Simply because it would mean God is in full control and kicks people into hell because they were so perfectly controlled by Him.
Good stuff WW. I am finding that it is very hard for those not of our mindset to argue with the fact that it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. My neighbor was over and I think truly encouraged (changed) by this truth.
The other thought I had while reading your post is how even our adversaries in this area of et vs ur are people whom God is working in to do and to will of His good pleasure. (I know how to chew a bone to death don't I?) But I am overwhelmed here. Think about this. Our very adversaries, like Satan Himself and evil, are workings of God. Mind blowing but it makes so much sense.
cp
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 21, 2010, 05:05:42 PM
None of what I said prevents his activity. What we would like his activity to be is another matter.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 21, 2010, 06:57:29 PM
Then I can only hope He doesn't charge overtime. It would take me a hell of along time to pay back. I hope His Son will help me out a little with the payments :whistleshake:
You're as much a mystery to me as God is WW!!!!! lol
cp
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 21, 2010, 06:57:29 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 21, 2010, 05:05:42 PM
QuoteTo me "God works in us" is an active God.
But in your description God just knows it will work out fine. That's good but also a passive God that just waits instead of "working in us
None of what I said prevents his activity. What we would like his activity to be is another matter.
Then I can only hope He doesn't charge overtime. It would take me a hell of along time to pay back. I hope His Son will help me out a little with the payments :whistleshake:
Many people go down long dark paths before they get home.
Quote from: claypot on April 21, 2010, 07:03:12 PMI am finding that it is very hard for those not of our mindset to argue with the fact that it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. My neighbor was over and I think truly encouraged (changed) by this truth.
"All" and "age" are often to direct for many people. It forces them in defencive mode.
But what you wrote is more of trojan horse approach. Just use things they already believe. But in such a way it points in a concealed way to UR.
QuoteThe other thought I had while reading your post is how even our adversaries in this area of et vs ur are people whom God is working in to do and to will of His good pleasure. (I know how to chew a bone to death don't I?) But I am overwhelmed here. Think about this. Our very adversaries, like Satan Himself and evil, are workings of God. Mind blowing but it makes so much sense.
Not to me to be honest. I read things. I learn things. I write things on this forum. But that often simply means that's how I understand the teachings. It doesn't mean I don't find things weird and unfair. Yes I know most on this forum don't like to hear unfair in connection to God. But because He already knows I'm saying anyway :winkgrin:
I was (am) on the dark side of life for most of my life. I only started with religion less that two years ago. Spamming this forum. Playing with smilies. And making some fun. That's about it. While other people, especially ET people, had 2 years of horror because of their hell fears. And they sure try harder to please Father than me.
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
(Heb 5:12)
Therefore leaving the principles (arche-beginnings) of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto maturity; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.
(Heb 6:1-3)
It seems to me the first two foundation stones are mainly coming to know "who" God is (koinonea in his eternal power and divine nature). The second two are mainly the "hows" of God (multiplying the body in Word and Spirit). Resurrection of the dead is mainly the "whens and whats" of God (we know not yet "what" we shall be, but we know that "when" we see Him, we shall be like Him.....)
IMO the foundation of eternal judgment is the "whys" if God. We cannot grow "wise" without the "whys".
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
(Eph 1:8-10)
It is impossible to move on to maturity without the foundations- God will not permit. They are choking on the milk, on the first principles of the gospel, because they have been fed a false view of God's invisible attributes- His eternal power and divine nature
If you can't see that the reason for what God has done flows from His nature- you can't understand what He is doing.
If you can't see the goal you can't run the race in the right direction, so you follow the crowd.
They cannot understand the "hows", because the stewardship of the mystery- this "ministry of reconciliation" requires we "know Him"- and know what spirit we are of.........
So I pray that the veil that remains over their eyes will be removed and that they may escape the snare of the devil in which they are snared and that they will come to know Him.....
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature....... For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself....
Praying for them....
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Having eyes they cannot perceive, having ears they cannot understand.....
Quote from: eaglesway on April 21, 2010, 07:45:35 PM
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
(Heb 5:12)
Therefore leaving the principles (arche-beginnings) of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto maturity; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.
(Heb 6:1-3)
It seems to me the first two foundation stones are mainly coming to know "who" God is (koinonea in his eternal power and divine nature). The second two are mainly the "hows" of God (multiplying the body in Word and Spirit). Resurrection of the dead is mainly the "whens and whats" of God (we know not yet "what" we shall be, but we know that "when" we see Him, we shall be like Him.....)
IMO the foundation of eternal judgment is the "whys" if God. We cannot grow "wise" without the "whys".
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
(Eph 1:8-10)
It is impossible to move on to maturity without the foundations- God will not permit. They are choking on the milk, on the first principles of the gospel, because they have been fed a false view of God's invisible attributes- His eternal power and divine nature
If you can't see that the reason for what God has done flows from His nature- you can't understand what He is doing.
If you can't see the goal you can't run the race in the right direction, so you follow the crowd.
They cannot understand the "hows", because the stewardship of the mystery- this "ministry of reconciliation" requires we "know Him"- and know what spirit we are of.........
So I pray that the veil that remains over their eyes will be removed and that they may escape the snare of the devil in which they are snared and that they will come to know Him.....
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature....... For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself....
Praying for them....
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Having eyes they cannot perceive, having ears they cannot understand.....
Yet even the weak ones God is working in to will and to do of His good pleasure. It pleases Him to have weak ones it seems as it seems to please Him to have downright nasty ones. All is out of God, for God and through God.
cp
Wow . . .this is really great stuff. Thank you eaglesway for sharing your perspectives.
Whatever the ascended view that transcends time, we are IN time, seeing through a glass darkly, beholding as in a mirror. Hence, although we know that all things are from Him and through Him and to Him- He lives in the NOW. TODAY if we HEAR His voice, we participate in the mystery. We enter rest when we cease form our own works and enter HIS HEART- I AM (I AM NOW ALWAYS BEING WHO I AM) partakers of the divine nature. Jesus was the express image of God- He wept and prayed with loud groaning and felt forsaken and interceded for His tormentors. The closest we get to eternity in life is RIGHT NOW, in this moment, in the twinkling of an eye. Therefore while it is still called TODAY, exhort one another to love and good works.
We know that all things are being reconciled, but our participation in that reconciliation involves UNION WITH THE FATHER"S HEART which was expressed in Jesus ON THE CROSS. So we are called to weep, to intercede, to proclaim the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ. If we are disciples, we must, as Paul put it, strive according to the rules. We don't get the privilege of opting out because we know the end is that God will be all in all. All the more in fact, as we see the day approaching we labor diligently to enter rest so that having done all we can stand in the evil day.
If in God's Whysdom he saw fit to find a friend in Abraham who offered his hope and the apple of his eye up to God in faith, we are called to the same friendship, that through faith, we are able to yield our bodies as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable unto God, being not conformed to this world but being transformed through the Re- NEWING of our minds so that we might prove what is the good and perfect and acceptable will of God.
I fall so far short of this I have little room within myself to judge others. I hope that grace abounds in the tabernacle and I get a little run-off :o) I am absolutely convinced that my blessing is only to be revealed with the manifestation of the Body of Christ under the Headship of Jesus- so I intercede for it continually.
willieH: Hi EW... :cloud9:
Quote from: eaglesway on April 21, 2010, 03:25:42 PM
boulema, thelema :dontknow: boulema, thelema :swordfight:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will(thelema):
(Eph 1:10-11)
If He works all things according to the counsel of His thelema- it don't matter whether you define it as desire or intent- His desire and His intent are one in that He causes all things to work after the counsel of His own THELEMA
So, IMO His boulema is that His thelema be fulfilled :boogie:
boulema, thelema :handshake: boulema, thelema :high5:
:goodpost: Very good, bro! I see it exactly the same way... :friendstu:
Why would God's "INTENT" [boulema], be in ANY OPPOSITION to His "DESIRES" [thelema]? :omg:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
willieH: Hi EW... :hithere:
Quote from: eaglesway on April 21, 2010, 09:55:04 PM
If in God's Whysdom he saw fit to find a friend in Abraham who offered his hope and the apple of his eye up to God in faith, we are called to the same friendship, that through faith, we are able to yield our bodies as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable unto God, being not conformed to this world but being transformed through the Re- NEWING of our minds so that we might prove what is the good and perfect [TELEIOS=complete] and acceptable will [=THELEMA] of God.
Again, Good post brother... :thumbsup:
A "PERFECT" [TELEIOS -- #G5046] -- "THELEMA" -- can only be that "THELEMA" which is
COMPLETE...
Matt 5:48 ...be ye therefore PERFECT [teleios] as your FATHER in Heaven is PERFECT [teleios] PERFECT=COMPLETE [TELEIOS -- #G5046] :happygrin:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Yes, for sure. If YHWH sets His boulema against His thelema, How can He say "Come let us reason together". The idea that the Logos is so illogical that God can not bring His thelema to His kingdom by the exercise of His boulema is not reasonable, logocal, or really, even sane.
"Thy kingdom come, Thy thelema be done, on earth as it is in heaven"
(Rev 5:11) And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
(Rev 5:12) Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
(Rev 5:13) And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Quote from: willieH on April 20, 2010, 04:12:32 AM
willieH: Hello everybody... :cloud9:
Here is a condensed synopsis of the interaction:
It all grinded to a halt, on the presentation of the word "BOULEMA" as is used in 2 Pet 3:9
These guys heartily argued against UR... and in doing so, ...they maintained that BOULEMA -- #G1014 (or derivitives of it such as BOULE #G1012 -- BOULEUO #G1011), are an INSISTENT and UNALTERABLE communication concerning the "WILL" [purpose/intent] of God. And that THELO #G2309 / THELEMA #G2307 is merely a (watered down) DESIRE (rather than "WILL") which is often FOILED, FRUSTRATED and THWARTED... by the doings of men...
This is a faulty solution to a mistated [problem. YOU are saying (If I understand correctly) that if God's will can be thwarted, it makes God less than the one who can thwart it. THAT is NOT what God says. God said, "choose you this day whom ye will serve." THAT expresses what the will of God is for men to observe; i.e., make a selection from options available, from which to select.
USALV teachers seem to be saying (again, IF i understand their position correctly) that it is the will of God that all men be saved, and that this is the totallity and all that counts of God's will. All those other little expressions of God's will are subject to this as the ultimate expression thereof, and cannot be treated equally as "God's will."
Your conclusion seems to hang on such words as are translated "will" or those that have the meaning of "intent."
THAT does nothing toward explaining how it is that man can "reject" God's instruction, OR that man can "deal treacherously" with God. Yet God time and time again, punishes Israel for exactly that.
Look at the Greek [athetei - eetheteesen]
Jer 3:20 Surely as a wife (1)treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt (2)treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.
[(1)athetei Indicative present active 3rd singular verb][(2)eetheteesen indicative aorist active 3rd singular verb]
[atheteemata - eetheteesan]
1 Kings 8:50 And forgive thy people that have sinned against thee, and all their (1)transgressions wherein they have (2)transgressed against thee, and give them compassion before them who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them:
[(1)atheteemata accusative neuter plural noun] [(2)eetheteesan indicative aorist active 3rd plural verb]
2 Chr 36:14 Moreover all the chief of the priests, and the people, (1)transgressed (2)(with transgression) very much after all the abominations of the heathen; and polluted the house of the LORD which he had hallowed in Jerusalem.
[(1)atheteesai aorist active verb infinitive][(2)atheteemata accusative neuter plural noun]
Jer 12:1 Righteous art thou, O LORD, when I plead with thee: yet let me talk with thee of thy judgments: Wherefore doth the way of the wicked prosper? wherefore are all they happy that (1)deal very (2)treacherously?
[(1)athetountes present active nominaticve masculine plural verb participle]][(2)atheteemata accusative neuter plural noun][NOTE: "deal" as in "REJECT"]
[atheteesai Aorist Active verb infinitive]
2 Chr 36:13 And he also *rebelled against king Nebuchadnezzar, who had made him swear by God: but he stiffened his neck, and hardened his heart from turning unto the LORD God of Israel.
[atheteesei indicative future active 3rd singular verb]
Psalm 132:11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not *turn-from-it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
Isaiah 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest (1)deal very (2)treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
[(1)athetwn nominative present active masculine singular verb participle]][(2)athetew indicative future active 2nd singular verb]
[atheteesw Subjunctive aorist active 1st singular verb]
Psalm 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor *alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
[atheteeswsin Subjunctive aorist active 3rd plural verb]]
Isaiah 63:8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not *lie: so he was their Saviour.
Isaiah 24:16 From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the (1)treacherous dealers have dealt (2)treacherously; yea, the (1)treacherous dealers have dealt very (2)treacherously.
[(1)athetousin present active middle deponent masculine plural verb participle][(2)athetountes present active nominative masculine plural verb participle]
Jeremiah 5:11 For the house of Israel and the house of Judah have (1)dealt very (2)treacherously against me, saith the LORD.
[(1)athetwn present active nominative masculine singular verb participle] (2)eetheteesen Indicative aorist active 3rd singular verb]
[athetew = verb inf aor act = reject, refuse, ignore; make invalid, set aside; break (1 Tm 5.12)
[atheteesai = Aorist Active Verb Infinitive]
Mark 6:26 And the king was exceeding sorry; yet for his oath's sake, and for their sakes which sat with him, he would not *reject her.
[atheteite = Indicative Present Active Verb]
Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye *reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
[eetheteesan Indicative Aorist Active Verb
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers *rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
[athetei - athetwn]
Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that (1)despiseth you (2)despiseth me; and he that (3)despiseth me (4)despiseth him that sent me.[(1)athetwn = nominative masculine singular present active verb participle][(2)athetei Indicative present active 3rd singular verb][(3)athetwn = nominative masculine singular present active verb participle][(4)athetei Indicative present active 3rd singular verb]
[athetwn = nominative masculine singular present active verb participle]
John 12:48 He that *rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
[atheteesw indicative future active 1st singular verb]
1 Cor 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will *bring-to-nothing the understanding of the prudent.
[athetw Indicative present active 1st singular verb]
Gal 2:21 I do not *frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
[athetei Indicative present active 3rd singuloar verb]
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man *disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
athetei - athetwn
1 Thes 4:8 He therefore that (1)despiseth, (2)despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit. [(1)athetwn Nominative present active masculine singular verb participle][(2)athetei Indicative present active 3rd singular verb]
[eetheteesan Indicative Aorist Active 3rd plural verb]
1 Tim 5:12 Having damnation, because they have *cast-off their first faith.
[atheteesas Aorist Active Nominative masculine singular verb participle]
Heb 10:28 He that *despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[athetousin Indicative present active 3rd plural verb]
Jude 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, *despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
Then you make an error in assigning "Jehovah"s name to the works of Cyrus, king of Persia; recorded in Isa 44:28. Surely you don't suppose Cyrus carried out literally "all of jehovah's will."
QuoteThis "DESIRE" contention also argues against -- Isaiah 44:28 -- Isaiah 46:10 -- which twice note that YHVH shall do ALL His PLEASURE [CHEPHETS --#H2356 = pleasure/desire]...
Most of the statement like this are treated as absolutes by USALV teachers, when in reality they are not, but are limited by the parameter of context.
What do you understand to be God's will in the following two contexts?
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
What say you?
Quote from: Theo Book on April 22, 2010, 11:47:50 PM
Look at the Greek [athetei - eetheteesen]
[(1)athetei Indicative present active 3rd singular verb]
[(2)eetheteesen indicative aorist active 3rd singular verb]
[(1)atheteemata accusative neuter plural noun]
[(2)eetheteesan indicative aorist active 3rd plural verb]
[(1)atheteesai aorist active verb infinitive]
[(2)atheteemata accusative neuter plural noun]
[(1)athetountes present active nominative masculine plural verb participle]]
[(2)atheteemata accusative neuter plural noun]
[atheteesai Aorist Active verb infinitive]
[atheteesei indicative future active 3rd singular verb]
[(1)athetwn nominative present active masculine singular verb participle]
[(2)athetew indicative future active 2nd singular verb]
[atheteesw Subjunctive aorist active 1st singular verb]
[atheteeswsin Subjunctive aorist active 3rd plural verb]
[(1)athetousin present active middle deponent masculine plural verb participle]
[(2)athetountes present active nominative masculine plural verb participle]
[(1)athetwn present active nominative masculine singular verb participle]
[(2)eetheteesen Indicative aorist active 3rd singular verb]
[atheteesai = Aorist Active Verb Infinitive]
[atheteite = Indicative Present Active Verb]
[eetheteesan Indicative Aorist Active Verb]
[(1)athetwn = nominative masculine singular present active verb participle]
[(2)athetei Indicative present active 3rd singular verb]
[(3)athetwn = nominative masculine singular present active verb participle]
[(4)athetei Indicative present active 3rd singular verb]
[athetwn = nominative masculine singular present active verb participle]
[atheteesw indicative future active 1st singular verb]
[athetw Indicative present active 1st singular verb]
[athetei Indicative present active 3rd singuloar verb]
[(1)athetwn Nominative present active masculine singular verb participle]
[(2)athetei Indicative present active 3rd singular verb]
[eetheteesan Indicative Aorist Active 3rd plural verb]
[atheteesas Aorist Active Nominative masculine singular verb participle]
[athetousin Indicative present active 3rd plural verb]
What say you?
Although controversial, people have changed their minds, it's called choice.
However, even though all participate; an active role does not necessarily determine the final outcome.
To be actively for or against something presently, that is the question?
"You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do you."
willieH: Hi Theo... :welcome:
Wondered when you'd show up! :laughing7:
Quote from: willieH on April 20, 2010, 04:12:32 AM
willieH: Hello everybody... :cloud9:
Here is a condensed synopsis of the interaction:
It all grinded to a halt, on the presentation of the word "BOULEMA" as is used in 2 Pet 3:9
These guys heartily argued against UR... and in doing so, ...they maintained that BOULEMA -- #G1014 (or derivitives of it such as BOULE #G1012 -- BOULEUO #G1011), are an INSISTENT and UNALTERABLE communication concerning the "WILL" [purpose/intent] of God. And that THELO #G2309 / THELEMA #G2307 is merely a (watered down) DESIRE (rather than "WILL") which is often FOILED, FRUSTRATED and THWARTED... by the doings of men...
Quote from: Theo Book on April 22, 2010, 11:47:50 PMThis is a faulty solution to a mistated [problem. YOU are saying (If I understand correctly) that if God's will can be thwarted, it makes God less than the one who can thwart it. THAT is NOT what God says. God said, "choose you this day whom ye will serve." THAT expresses what the will of God is for men to observe; i.e., make a selection from options available, from which to select.
- (1) God does not note that His WILL is put into question by any "choice" made by finite beings...
- (2) That GOD instructs a man to "choose", does not mean that the CHOICE made is actually "made" by the man... The man only enacts the choice... which has already been NOTED by the Declaration of ALL THINGS (which were ALL, yet undone) -- Rom 4:17 -- Isaiah 46:10-11 -- which have already been DECIDED by THAT DECLARATION... That your hand moves to your forehead to scratch it, does not mean that the hand which is following an UNSEEN COMMAND of the head, ...decided of itself, to scratch the forehead... :mnah:
- (3) The WILL of GOD ...IS... stated as a matter of [boulema] DETERMINATION in -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- not to mention the many places that His [thelema] --- "desired" DETERMINATION is also made AND DONE, as in the "Lord's Prayer" -- Matt 6:18 -- Luke 11:2
- (4) God would NEVER state something such as His WILL or DESIRE (which emerges from His POSITION of PERFECTION/COMPLETION)... but then, CONFOUND and FOIL His OWN Declaration via the [yet-to-be-done] "free will" doings of MAN... This is an example of a [eternally frustrated] Kingdom ...DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF...
IOW... If God has a DESIRE... that DESIRE is one which is ALREADY COMPLETE... that time is TEMPORARILY involved in the DISPLAY of that COMPLETED desire, does not make it COMPLETE... for the "DESIRE" emerges from a COMPLETE BEING which needs no such assistance from time OR men in order to be COMPLETE/PERFECT.
All that "watering down", proposed by (most of) "Christianity", ...concerning the WILL [thelema] of GOD [as a mere "desire" which can be foiled by man], is founded in the
SELF CENTEREDNESS of the doctrine they embrace... Which ALWAYS begins with the SELF -- INCLUSION of themselves... :rolleye: (as was the case on those in which I discussed this matter on the other forum)...
And IN that DECEPTION is found the purposed intent to separate part [MOST] of the WORLD that GOD so [ETERNALLY] LOVED [loves, always will love]... from His
WILL that it be SAVED...
Quote from: Theo Book on April 22, 2010, 11:47:50 PMUSALV teachers seem to be saying (again, IF i understand their position correctly) that it is the will of God that all men be saved, and that this is the totallity and all that counts of God's will. All those other little expressions of God's will are subject to this as the ultimate expression thereof, and cannot be treated equally as "God's will."
Let's face it brother Theo... you do not understand the position of UR "correctly" at all... and you have often displayed here on Tentmaker, that you do not... :dontknow:
No one has suggested this at all bro... The WILL of the Almighty, is concerned with EVERYTHING within Earthly TIME, as well as the Heavenly realm of ETERNITY... How could ANYONE be arrogant enough to note that ONE ISSUE [UR] is the COMPLETE ESSENCE of the "
WILL" of a BEING which we cannot even comprehend?
It is definitely a facet of His WILL, but as far as it being "all that counts of God's will"... no finite has the capacity to know... And no one here has asserted UR to be the "end-all" of His "WILL"...
Quote from: Theo Book on April 22, 2010, 11:47:50 PMYour conclusion seems to hang on such words as are translated "will" or those that have the meaning of "intent."
THAT does nothing toward explaining how it is that man can "reject" God's instruction, OR that man can "deal treacherously" with God. Yet God time and time again, punishes Israel for exactly that.
GOD is about revealing the KNOWLEDGE contained in HIS WORD of GOOD and EVIL... the REJECTION of His instruction or command, is VITAL for the revelation of this knowledge... Do you not know these things, Theo?
One of the principles of the INFINITE
YHVH God, is REAPING and SOWING... Israel REAPED what the SOWED... Do you not know these things Theo?
Quote from: willieH on April 20, 2010, 04:12:32 AMThis "DESIRE" contention also argues against -- Isaiah 44:28 -- Isaiah 46:10 -- which twice note that YHVH shall do ALL His PLEASURE [CHEPHETS --#H2356 = pleasure/desire]...
Quote from: Theo Book on April 22, 2010, 11:47:50 PMMost of the statement like this are treated as absolutes by USALV teachers, when in reality they are not, but are limited by the parameter of context.
This is just humorous, bro... It is YOU which endeavor to LIMIT the
WORD of God to "context" (don't get me wrong, ...principles of God are valuable to the context in which they are presented, but certainly NOT LIMITED to said "context". This is a nothing but a form of "IMPRISONMENT" which RELIGIOUS THEOLOGIANS impose on the
WORDS of the Almighty, which ARE FREE)
How foolish is this observation... that you would note that the "parameter of context" (assigned by YOU to GOD), would CONFINE the PLEASURE [desires] of GOD to it... :sigh:
Quote from: Theo Book on April 22, 2010, 11:47:50 PMWhat do you understand to be God's will in the following two contexts?
Honestly, ...do you really want to know Theo? :dontknow:
Quote from: Theo Book on April 22, 2010, 11:47:50 PMGen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
That God makes
ANY pronouncement... means that it is included in His
WORD... which changes
NOT...
His
WORD never RETURNS VOID unto wherever it has been sent --
Isaiah 55:11 -- NOTHING in the
WORD brings "VOID" ... back to the table...
NOTHING...
Quote from: Theo Book on April 22, 2010, 11:47:50 PMActs 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
This is a REVEALED REPORT which was already determined and DECLARED by
YHVH, LONG BEFORE this designation was made KNOWN to men in --
Acts 7:51 -- as well as LONG BEFORE said "resisting" ever took place. Do you not KNOW these things? :mshock:
RESISTING of the COMMAND of GOD which enables DISPLAY of the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL... is and was ORDAINED... it is PART of His WILL that we "resist" the call of the Holy Ghost... for many are
called but FEW are chosen... [to hear]... so those who "RESIST", simply do not have possession of an "EAR to HEAR"...
That MEN were PURPOSELY given to RESIST the COMMAND of GOD... was determined before MAN, or the WORLD, was even created... otherwise, the Savior would not have been SLAIN from its foundation... (before ONE
[adam- and all IN HIM] was even available to need that sacrifice, it was already a "done deal")
Rev 13:8-9 --
and ALL that DWELL upon the earth SHALL WORSHIP Him, whose names are not written in the book of Life of the Lamb... SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION of the WORLD... If any man have an EAR... let him HEAR... Quote from: Theo Book on April 22, 2010, 11:47:50 PMWhat say you?
I just "said"... did you "HEAR", bro?
I hope so... :Pray:
...willieH :cloud9:
QuoteThis is a faulty solution to a mistated [problem. YOU are saying (If I understand correctly) that if God's will can be thwarted, it makes God less than the one who can thwart it. THAT is NOT what God says. God said, "choose you this day whom ye will serve." THAT expresses what the will of God is for men to observe; i.e., make a selection from options available, from which to select.
(WH)
God does not note that His WILL is put into question by any "choice" made by finite beings...
That GOD instructs a man to "choose", does not mean that the CHOICE made is actually "made" by the man... The man only enacts the choice... which has already been NOTED by the Declaration of ALL THINGS (which were ALL, yet undone) -- Rom 4:17 -- Isaiah 46:10-11 -- which have already been DECIDED by THAT DECLARATION... That your hand moves to your forehead to scratch it, does not mean that the hand which is following an UNSEEN COMMAND of the head, ...decided of itself, to scratch the forehead... :mnah:[/li][/list]
Wrong comparison; your hand has not been given free will by your mind. You do not think with your hand, and many fingers have been cut off and/or smashed for that very reason. Because the hand does not have eyes, but must depend upon the mind and its analysis of what the eye sees, YOUR MIND has been given free will by God. Now, to make your doctrine palatable even though it totally ignores many scriptures, you make an incorrect comparison, between things that have nothing in common, and don't work the same way. That is why there can be suicides, the mind can make bad decisions that affect the whole body.
AND, your doctrine makes God directly responsible for all the bad decisions ever made by every man. God thereby become the author of confusion, which he denies, and the author of every crime committed by one man against another; rape, murder, genocide, slavery, hmmm!!! I don't think so.
(WH)
Quote
- (3) The WILL of GOD ...IS... stated as a matter of [boulema] DETERMINATION in -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- not to mention the many places that His [thelema] --- "desired" DETERMINATION is also made AND DONE, as in the "Lord's Prayer" -- Matt 6:18 -- Luke 11:2
- (4) God would NEVER state something such as His WILL or DESIRE (which emerges from His POSITION of PERFECTION/COMPLETION)... but then, CONFOUND and FOIL His OWN Declaration via the [yet-to-be-done] "free will" doings of MAN... This is an example of a [eternally frustrated] Kingdom ...DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF...
IOW... If God has a DESIRE... that DESIRE is one which is ALREADY COMPLETE... that time is TEMPORARILY involved in the DISPLAY of that COMPLETED desire, does not make it COMPLETE... for the "DESIRE" emerges from a COMPLETE BEING which needs no such assistance from time OR men in order to be COMPLETE/PERFECT.
I gave you two contradicting statements, both made by God through inspiration, which tell entirely different endings to God's plans, yet you choose to ignore it rather than deal with it. No wonder you come up with USALV doctrine. You will not deal with anything that makes your position false.
God said to Abraham,
Quote
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
To which you responded:
That God makes ANY pronouncement... means that it is included in His WORD... which changes NOT...
His WORD never RETURNS VOID unto wherever it has been sent -- Isaiah 55:11 -- NOTHING in the WORD brings "VOID" ... back to the table... NOTHING...
Which simply demonstrates how little knowledge you have of scripture. Remember the city of Nineveh? God sent Jonah to preach to Ninevah, to warn them of impending doom. They were told the words of God that in forty days their city would be destroyed. BUT, they repented, changed their mind and their ways, and God relented, repented of the evil he intended to do to them, and they survived till a later generation who failed to repent.
That is the pattern of behaviour found throughout the history of man; submit, forget, rebel, punishment, repent, submit, forget, etc, ad nauseum.
The reference I gave you that showed GIsrael did not do what God told Abraham they would do, you failed to compare with what God said they would do.
Quote
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Now, tell me, who's will was it that these men "resist the will of the Holy Spirit" AS DID THEIR FATHERS"? Was it their will? You say they cannot thwart God's will, therefore you must say it is God's will for men to resist God's will. THAT IS INSANITY..
What then is the meaning, and reason behind, 1 John 5:18 "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
Many say this means God will not let a man sin who has been "born of God." THAT is a flase rendition of scripture.
It is like a mother who sees her little child stomping through the flower bed, and swats his behind while telling him, "You can't do that." She is not telling him it is impossible for him to do something, she is telling him it is inconsistant with good behaviour, and for bad behaviour he will be swatted.
God is saying "if you are born again, bad behaviour becomes inconsistant with who you have become." "You can't do that."
It is understood in the vernacular, there is a difference between utterances that cannot be changed and utterances that are intended to direct or guide behaviour.
QuoteThis is a faulty solution to a mistated [problem. YOU are saying (If I understand correctly) that if God's will can be thwarted, it makes God less than the one who can thwart it. THAT is NOT what God says. God said, "choose you this day whom ye will serve." THAT expresses what the will of God is for men to observe; i.e., make a selection from options available, from which to select.
Theo, do you think there is a division between God showing the preferred path to his determined will and his determined will?
1 Timothy 2:4 various translations use different words Will, is willing, desures, wishes, but the definition of the word is "to determine". What God has determined absolutely cannot be thwarted.
What scripture shows us that God has determined man is obedient?
The scripture you point out is not God making a declaration for what man will do. It is stating the path that is better for a person to take. Nothing has been frustrated because God has not determined something that man changed.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 23, 2010, 04:43:36 PM
QuoteThis is a faulty solution to a mistated [problem. YOU are saying (If I understand correctly) that if God's will can be thwarted, it makes God less than the one who can thwart it. THAT is NOT what God says. God said, "choose you this day whom ye will serve." THAT expresses what the will of God is for men to observe; i.e., make a selection from options available, from which to select.
Theo, do you think there is a division between God showing the preferred path to his determined will and his determined will?
1 Timothy 2:4 various translations use different words Will, is willing, desures, wishes, but the definition of the word is "to determine". What God has determined absolutely cannot be thwarted.
What scripture shows us that God has determined man is obedient?
The scripture you point out is not God making a declaration for what man will do. It is stating the path that is better for a person to take. Nothing has been frustrated because God has not determined something that man changed.
Oh, I understand that my friend, what I do not understand is how Universal salvation deals with passage such as Isaiah 63:3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment."
And---Jeremiah 1:16 "And I will utter my judgments against them touching all their wickedness, who have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, and worshipped the works of their own hands."
If it is God's will for man to disobey, (which I deny) then why does God get so furious with them when they disobey, in obedience to his will? It makes no sense whatsoever.
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 05:43:27 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 23, 2010, 04:43:36 PM
QuoteThis is a faulty solution to a mistated [problem. YOU are saying (If I understand correctly) that if God's will can be thwarted, it makes God less than the one who can thwart it. THAT is NOT what God says. God said, "choose you this day whom ye will serve." THAT expresses what the will of God is for men to observe; i.e., make a selection from options available, from which to select.
Theo, do you think there is a division between God showing the preferred path to his determined will and his determined will?
1 Timothy 2:4 various translations use different words Will, is willing, desures, wishes, but the definition of the word is "to determine". What God has determined absolutely cannot be thwarted.
What scripture shows us that God has determined man is obedient?
The scripture you point out is not God making a declaration for what man will do. It is stating the path that is better for a person to take. Nothing has been frustrated because God has not determined something that man changed.
Oh, I understand that my friend, what I do not understand is how Universal salvation deals with passage such as Isaiah 63:3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment."
And---Jeremiah 1:16 "And I will utter my judgments against them touching all their wickedness, who have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, and worshipped the works of their own hands."
If it is God's will for man to disobey, (which I deny) then why does God get so furious with them when they disobey, in obedience to his will? It makes no sense whatsoever.
You have to understand that Christian Universalism doesn't deal with that per sey, there is disagreement over the nature of our will with the understanding of a direct declaration in scripture that is indeed Gods determination as opposed to his preference for us.
So my point is that you do usually have to address those subjects with the person who expresses them because both Willie and I acknowledge God will save all mankind. The aspects of the journey getting there is something we can disagree over.
So when it comes to God determining that I did the evil things in my life as a matter of "planning" from a desire that I do them I cannot address your question, because I do not agree that is the nature of those things.
I was pointing out how I see that Gods will is not thwarted.
Thwart suggests stopping something (his will) by opposing, blocking, or hindering it. In other words, running contrary to it.
Frustrate implies rendering all attempts or efforts of the SPIRIT useless or ineffectual, so that it is overcome.
These propositions of men are a cause of confusion; the doctrines of Hell.
Whether, it is by self "election" or rejection.
peacemaker
:cloud9: I shared it before, but this is what He showed me concerning our will vs. His will.
I saw myself from above driving, constrained by the element of time. God was above, not constrained by time, but instead seeing the end from the beginning.
So when He saw me make a wrong turn, He placed a roadblock or other diversion in my path to make me turn the way He desired.
To me, constrained by time, it appeared that I was making the choices, but in reality, He was "stacking the deck". :bigGrin: Blessings.....
willieH: Hi TB... :happygrin:
(TB)
Quote from: TheoThis is a faulty solution to a mistated [problem. YOU are saying (If I understand correctly) that if God's will can be thwarted, it makes God less than the one who can thwart it. THAT is NOT what God says. God said, "choose you this day whom ye will serve." THAT expresses what the will of God is for men to observe; i.e., make a selection from options available, from which to select.
(WH)
God does not note that His WILL is put into question by any "choice" made by finite beings...
That GOD instructs a man to "choose", does not mean that the CHOICE made is actually "made" by the man... The man only enacts the choice... which has already been NOTED by the Declaration of ALL THINGS (which were ALL, yet undone) -- Rom 4:17 -- Isaiah 46:10-11 -- which have already been DECIDED by THAT DECLARATION... That your hand moves to your forehead to scratch it, does not mean that the hand which is following an UNSEEN COMMAND of the head, ...decided of itself, to scratch the forehead... :mnah:
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 04:27:22 PMWrong comparison; your hand has not been given free will by your mind.
"Wrong", as compared to what? YOU and Your opinion? :mnah:
You failed to see in the example, that the HAND was given UNSEEN COMMAND to do as it DID... which command CAME from the HEAD.
It is WRITTEN that ALL HAVE SINNED... this was determined about YOU, before you drew a breath, bro.
Neither has YOUR "MIND" been given "free will" by GOD (if it had truly been given, it would be "DULY" noted as a "gift" in the
WORD, however... it is NOT WRITTEN in the
WORD, and is therefore reduced to being an ASSUMPTION made by YOU)...
What actually
IS "DULY" NOTED and ACTUALLY
WRITTEN in the
WORD, is that you were (as has everyone) ...
CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF --
Rom 11:32 -- as well as inserted --
IN ADAM (into his sinfulness) --
Rom 5:12 --
1 Cor 15:22 -- certainly NEITHER of these which BIND YOU to SIN and DEATH, were "your call", bro Theo... :dontknow:
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 04:27:22 PMYou do not think with your hand, and many fingers have been cut off and/or smashed for that very reason. Because the hand does not have eyes, but must depend upon the mind and its analysis of what the eye sees, YOUR MIND has been given free will by God. Now, to make your doctrine palatable even though it totally ignores many scriptures, you make an incorrect comparison, between things that have nothing in common, and don't work the same way. That is why there can be suicides, the mind can make bad decisions that affect the whole body.
(1) If only you would open your eyes brother T... you would afford yourself the opportunity to SEE... You conclude another [me] "WRONG" or "INCORRECT"... and the only basis for this designation, is a comparison to what I have BIBLICALLY noted... to your own OPINION and your OWN WORDS.
(2) You "say" that I "TOTALLY ignore many scriptures" in order to make "my doctrine palatable" -- yet you name NONE... :dontknow:
(3) Even though Scripture plainly notes the SPIRITUAL reality, via it's PHYSICAL REFLECTION (as you have nicely noted in
blue above) --
1 Cor 12:12-26 -- still, you fail to recognize it.
(4) You are dependent upon a belief in "FREE WILL" as a "gift" from God, but fail to note where this is WRITTEN... What IS WRITTEN is that (aside from
CHRIST and His INDWELLING and CONTROL) the MIND is CARNAL --
Col 2:18 -- Rom 7:14 -- 1 Cor 3:3 -- and that the HEART is "DESPARATELY WICKED" ABOVE ALL THINGS --
Jer 17:9 -- Which are HARDLY designations that describe an entity [the MIND of MAN], as being "FREE"!
Methinks it is YOU which IGNORE many Scriptures (at least I bothered to name a few), in order to make "your doctrine, palatable"... :sigh:
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 04:27:22 PMAND, your doctrine makes God directly responsible for all the bad decisions ever made by every man. God thereby become the author of confusion, which he denies, and the author of every crime committed by one man against another; rape, murder, genocide, slavery, hmmm!!! I don't think so.
(1) He
IS "responsible" for
ALL THINGS, for HE WORKS
ALL THINGS, Theo --
Eph 1:11 -- for BY HIM, were
ALL THINGS created, and FOR HIM as well --
Col 1:16 --
ALL that was "made" was MADE by Him --
John 1:3 -- to include the MEN which make said mistakes... which via His FOREKNOWLEDGE and DECLARATION, do they MAKE said mistakes --
Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 4:17 -- as
HE leads their "steps" (way) --
Prov 20:24 -- Prov 16:9 -- Jer 10:23(2) -- Rape, murder, genocide, slavery, are ALL part of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD & EVIL, that lies within the HEART of
YHVH... which is EMERGENT from HIM, as well as TEMPORAL (as far as manifestation) and which is to be
each set under the
FOOT of GOOD which is ETERNAL --
1 Cor 15:27-28 -- and which is ALSO WHY...
YHVH stands by (doing NOTHING to stop them), as ALL these things OCCUR.
You picture Him as VENGENT... waiting for the History of MAN to become completed... and then EXACTING His power of VENGENCE upon them... failing to GRASP the teachings of
CHRIST which note that the "eye for eye trip" is no longer VALID and that
ENEMIES must be
BLESSED and LOVED, ...not CURSED and RECOMPENSED --
Matt 5:44-48 -- Which describe the PERFECTION [
vs 48] of
YHVH in Heaven -- Do you not know these things, bro T?
(WH)
Quote
- (3) The WILL of GOD ...IS... stated as a matter of [boulema] DETERMINATION in -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- not to mention the many places that His [thelema] --- "desired" DETERMINATION is also made AND DONE, as in the "Lord's Prayer" -- Matt 6:18 -- Luke 11:2
(4) God would NEVER state something such as His WILL or DESIRE (which emerges from His POSITION of PERFECTION/COMPLETION)... but then, CONFOUND and FOIL His OWN Declaration via the [yet-to-be-done] "free will" doings of MAN... This is an example of a [eternally frustrated] Kingdom ...DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF...
IOW... If God has a DESIRE... that DESIRE is one which is ALREADY COMPLETE... that time is TEMPORARILY involved in the DISPLAY of that COMPLETED desire, does not make it COMPLETE... for the "DESIRE" emerges from a COMPLETE BEING which needs no such assistance from time OR men in order to be COMPLETE/PERFECT.
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 04:27:22 PMI gave you two contradicting statements, both made by God through inspiration, which tell entirely different endings to God's plans, yet you choose to ignore it rather than deal with it. No wonder you come up with USALV doctrine. You will not deal with anything that makes your position false.
Don't you see that you PURPOSE confusion, brother? These do not stand in OPPOSITION of one another, only in the mind which is confused... I do not give creedence to the grandiose failings which you presently embrace... and which the Lord has delivered me from (my 25yrs within the proposals of them)...
God said to Abraham,
Quote
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
To which you responded:
Quote from: willieHThat God makes ANY pronouncement... means that it is included in His WORD... which changes NOT...
His WORD never RETURNS VOID unto wherever it has been sent -- Isaiah 55:11 -- NOTHING in the WORD brings "VOID" ... back to the table... NOTHING...
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 04:27:22 PMWhich simply demonstrates how little knowledge you have of scripture.
Please! :laughing7:
I shall be the FIRST to admit that my knowledge of Scripture is limited. However... that you do not NOTE that which you wish me to address (which is purposed deception)... does not equate my "knowledge of Scripture" to be faulty... just my comprehension of your proposed confusion, as
that which is limited... :dontknow:
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 04:27:22 PMRemember the city of Nineveh? God sent Jonah to preach to Ninevah, to warn them of impending doom. They were told the words of God that in forty days their city would be destroyed. BUT, they repented, changed their mind and their ways, and God relented, repented of the evil he intended to do to them, and they survived till a later generation who failed to repent.
GOD does NOT CHANGE --
Mal 3:6 -- neither does HIS
WORD --
Heb 13:8What you fail to see in this story of Jonah brother Theo... is that the WILL of GOD sent Him to accomplish what ENDED UP being accomplished. :dontknow: You fail in the very SAME WAY, to see the mission of
CHRIST who was SENT
NOT TO CONDEMN, but to SAVE the WORLD that GOD SO LOVED [eternally-unchangingly loves]...
You make the whole she-bang, bass-ackwards... and instead of SAVING the WORLD, you preach He shall DO that which He was SENT
NOT to DO... :sigh:
Jonah was SENT to SAVE Ninevah by his preaching... and IN THE END, Ninevah ended up ...SAVED... wasn't it? Do you NOT, see this? Of course you do not... which is why you are continually noting others as "wrong" or "incorrect"... using YOURSELF and YOUR OPINIONS as the measure to make such determinations... :thumbdown:
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 04:27:22 PMThat is the pattern of behaviour found throughout the history of man; submit, forget, rebel, punishment, repent, submit, forget, etc, ad nauseum.
The reference I gave you that showed GIsrael did not do what God told Abraham they would do, you failed to compare with what God said they would do.
Quote
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Now, tell me, who's will was it that these men "resist the will of the Holy Spirit" AS DID THEIR FATHERS"? Was it their will? You say they cannot thwart God's will, therefore you must say it is God's will for men to resist God's will. THAT IS INSANITY..
Theo... you are so bound in the idea that where GRACE abounded, SIN much more abounded... that you shall not see, regardless of any amount of explanations...
The WILL of GOD is done in ALL THINGS --
Eph 1:11 -- live with it. When will you begin to BELIEVE the Scriptures, instead of the foul porridge which you have been fed, bro? When will you KNOW that GOD WINS... and the premise of EVIL LOSES? When shall you abandon your own OPINIONS and look at the WORLD through His eyes instead of your own? :dontknow:
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 04:27:22 PMWhat then is the meaning, and reason behind, 1 John 5:18 "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
Not that you shall listen, but this is a "POST vs PRIOR" type of statement... When YOU were a SINNER (and btw... you still ARE --
1 John 1:8)... you PURPOSED without regard in your SIN... however... The very same Apostle that wrote
1 John 5:18, also wrote a few verses before --
1 John 1:8...
Failing to see that YOU are YET, a SINNER... you stand in judgment of those in the world (of which YOU were once numbered)... by thinking yourself "begotten"... There is ONLY ONE which was "BEGOTTEN" bro...
JESUS CHRIST... the rest of us are SINNERS, which need to SAY that we are, as did PAUL --
Rom 7 -- entire chapter.
Only THEN... shall you cease from such "religious" PIOUSNESS... and join the rest of us... who have found a better way. :sigh:
When you have DIED to yourself... and cease the measurement of others... because the
CHRIST which JUDGETH NO MAN... is HE that LIVES in you... and HE that abstains from SIN -- IN YOU -- on your [sinful] behalf... then shall you find ENEMIES as "loveable"... and "forgiveable"... as did the Savior:
..."Father, forgive them for they KNOW NOT, what they DO" --
Luke 23:34John was not stating that "he" was of GOD, rather, that "he" was in submission to GOD via
CHRIST which dwelt IN HIM... Do you have an EAR to HEAR, brother?
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 04:27:22 PMMany say this means God will not let a man sin who has been "born of God." THAT is a flase rendition of scripture.
:sigh: More of the same from you... "Theo" decides who is "wrong", ..."Theo" decides who is "incorrect" ..."Theo" decides what is "false"... Get off the high horse bro... and join us on our faces before HIM...
:bowing: :bowing: :bowing:
YHVH...willieH :cloud9:
[/list]
willieH: Hi Rebecca... :hithere:
Hope you and yours are well and doing great! :friendstu:
Quote from: Cardinal on April 23, 2010, 08:35:37 PM
:cloud9: I shared it before, but this is what He showed me concerning our will vs. His will.
I saw myself from above driving, constrained by the element of time. God was above, not constrained by time, but instead seeing the end from the beginning.
So when He saw me make a wrong turn, He placed a roadblock or other diversion in my path to make me turn the way He desired.
To me, constrained by time, it appeared that I was making the choices, but in reality, He was "stacking the deck". :bigGrin: Blessings.....
:goodpost: Very good sister R... :2thumbs:
...willieH :cloud9:
(TB)
Quote
Wrong comparison; your hand has not been given free will by your mind.
(WH) "Wrong", as compared to what? YOU and Your opinion?
Nope! WRONG as compared to reality. You do not think with your hands. You were not given free reach, or free clutch, you were given free will. Try dealing with the subject.
(WH)
Quote
It is WRITTEN that ALL HAVE SINNED... this was determined about YOU, before you drew a breath, bro.
Again, NOPE!
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, NEITHER HAVING DONE ANY good or EVIL, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Paul is not talking about men who are made to sin so God can bless them with forgiveness. He is talking about all men being made by God, some who choose good, some who choose evil, and in their goodness and in their evil, God makes a use for them all to his ultimate purpose.
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Paul is not saying God chooses to not have mercy on some because he made them evil, he is saying that because some men choose evil, God will use them for evil to bring about his ultimate purpose.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Look at how and WHEN God determines a pot is good or evil. He does not predetermine goodness or evilness for a pot in the making. He waits until the finished product makes its intent known, THEN he pronounces it good or evil according to its own choices.
Jeremiah 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
God tells us WHEN he determines a pot is good or evil, and it is NOT prior to its being formed.
Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 IF THAT NATION, against whom I have pronounced, TURN from their evil, I WILL REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 IF IT DO EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I WILL REPENT OF THE GOOD, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
YOU say man cannot make his ways good, GOD says differently.
Jer 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return YE now every one from his evil way, and MAKE YOUR WAYS AND YOUR DOINGS GOOD.
GOD TELLS US ABOUT THE DECISIONS OF MEN BEING A FACTOR IN WHO THEY BECOME
Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
GOOD MEN WILL LIVE
Ezek 18:5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, 7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; 8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, 9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.
BAD MEN WILL DIE
Ezek 18:10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,
11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,
12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,
13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
SONS DO NOT HAVE TO FOLLOW THEIR FATHER'S FOOTSTEPS
Ezek 18:14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,
16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
FATHERS ARE NOT SAVED BY THEIR SONS BEHAVIOUR
Ezek 18:18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
BOTH FATHER AND SON CAN CHANGE, CHOOSE GOOD OVER EVIL, REPENT, AND LIVE
Ezek 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
BOTH CAN TURN FROM GOOD TO DO EVIL, AND DIE
Ezek 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
(WH)
Quote
Neither has YOUR "MIND" been given "free will" by GOD (if it had truly been given, it would be "DULY" noted as a "gift" in the WORD, however... it is NOT WRITTEN in the WORD, and is therefore reduced to being an ASSUMPTION made by YOU)...
Nope! "Free will" is a definitioin of a concept spoken by God. it is not the words found in scripture, but those which are recognized by all who read scripture. Just as "prodigal son" brings to men's minds, that son who wasted his inheritance in "riotous living" - yet "prodigal" is not found in scripture.
"Free will" is not found in scripture, but the concept "free will" brings to the mind IS taught in scripture, by virtue of the meaning inherent in "CHOOSE YE this day whom YE WILL serve. See it? "CHOOSE YE" whom "YE WILL." FREE WILL by definition, not by inclusion in the written account.
(WH)
Quote
What actually IS "DULY" NOTED and ACTUALLY WRITTEN in the WORD, is that you were (as has everyone) ...CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- as well as inserted -- IN ADAM (into his sinfulness) -- Rom 5:12 -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- certainly NEITHER of these which BIND YOU to SIN and DEATH, were "your call", bro Theo...
Re-read Jeremiah 18:7-10
"AT WHAT INSTANT I SHALL SPEAK concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 IF THAT NATION, against whom I have pronounced, TURN from their evil, I WILL REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Jer 18:9 And AT WHAT INSTANT I SHALL SPEAK concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 IF IT DO EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I WILL REPENT OF THE GOOD, wherewith I said I would benefit them."
(WH)
Quote(2) You "say" that I "TOTALLY ignore many scriptures" in order to make "my doctrine palatable" -- yet you name NONE...
I think you will find both Ezekial 18 and Jeremiah 18 in my prior posts. I simply did not repost them due to lenghty posting. AND the fact they were ignorded previously.
(WH)
Quote
(4) You are dependent upon a belief in "FREE WILL" as a "gift" from God, but fail to note where this is WRITTEN...
Nope! Written again and again, "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve" has been referenced and quoted throughout.
I really do not see any purpose in continuing this dialogue, as we are diametrically opposed in the application of what is found in scripture. I will move on.
Yeah, we've probably had enough direct "free will" discussion already. It won't be settled in any one thread. There's plenty written about it that's available to read, including on the TM Main Page. If any of us can't discuss this without getting into a struggle about that term that Theo said's not in the scriptures, then it probably is best to move on to another topic. Plenty else to talk about.
(Mod hat off) - Simple question; Who ensures the final outcome of all things? It's written in the Word. :bigGrin:
P.S. I agree with PaulH, there's plenty of questions about how we get there, but appears to me to be some bottom lines that God says He'll ensure.
I believe we may "choose this day", or resist this day, but IMO, that just follows the inevitable that God is putting in place and creating the circumstances that ultimately fulfill His desires. There may be a process, but I believe the end is guaranteed. Some enter the narrow gate, the majority by the broad road of destruction - saved as by fire - still God setting the circumstances to bring all through Christ. Every knee, every tongue. Best to be as obedient as possible now. Doesn't work best and doesn't feel good to kick and scream. I ought'a know. :bigGrin:
We plan our way but God directs our steps. See Apostle Paul.
Quote from: jabcat on April 24, 2010, 01:07:18 AM
P.S. I agree with PaulH, there's plenty of questions about how we get there, but appears to me to be some bottom lines that God says He'll ensure.
I believe we may "choose this day", or resist this day, but IMO, that just follows the inevitable that God is putting in place and creating the circumstances that ultimately fulfill His desires. There may be a process, but I believe the end is guaranteed. Some enter the narrow gate, the majority by the broad road of destruction - saved as by fire - still God setting the circumstances to bring all through Christ. Every knee, every tongue. Best to be as obedient as possible now. Doesn't work best and doesn't feel good to kick and scream. I ought'a know. :bigGrin:
We plan our way but God directs our steps. See Apostle Paul.
What's this? A touch of sanity?
I think the issue of "free will" in the province of God's sovereignity, is akin to the concept of evolution within the scope of creation.
I think God utilizes evolution within creation. I also think has given us [mod edit] within the scope of his sovereign design for 3eternity.
There's a wide spectrum of belief on this matter Theo. Directly addressing the OP, I just think most here, even though there's some disagreement on the processes involved, just truly believe God will ultimately have His way. (I personally prefer Ultimate Reconciliation!) - that He does indeed work all things according to the counsel of His will. There's just varying understandings of exactly what that looks like as we plod along day to day. :cool:
And you just keep on thinking I'm sane. :laughing7:
Quote from: Theo Book on April 24, 2010, 01:18:01 AM
What's this? A touch of sanity?
There are two sides to every coin, Theo.
Good to see you back Cardinal :icon_flower:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 24, 2010, 01:41:24 AM
Quote from: Theo Book on April 24, 2010, 01:18:01 AM
What's this? A touch of sanity?
There are two sides to every coin, Theo.
And every coin has many ridges around it.
Every?
Maybe not. If you're going to get picky with me, some coins are double-sided. :laugh2:
And you're right, I don't believe in generalizations. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 24, 2010, 01:53:29 AM
Every?
Man! Can't get NOTHING past you!! Pennies and nickles . . .any other coins with no ridges??
The Widows Mite
It's such a complicated topic - clarifying, I'm not saying I believe God's will can be thwarted. I believe He ultimately gets exactly what He wants. :thumbsup:
Almighty God, thank you for showing us Your name.
Almighty God, Your plan remains the same.
Just the idea of thwarting His plan is the ludicrous pride of Adam.
He wouldn't be so almighty then, would He?
Pathetic.
Good point, David. Brings it into perspective. :thumbsup:
One thing I can honestly say is, I am so thankful that God gave me the knowledge of knowing that he is in control of my past, present, and future. I would honestly be a nervous wreck and probably go insane if I thought my salvation or my daily life for that matter was left in my hands.
God created us. He fashioned our minds, I had nothing to do with that. If I had I might be able to change some things different from what God had planned for me. How can we think for a moment that we weak humans can thwart the will of God? Why do we think the way we do? Why do we do the things we do? Have you ever looked back on your life and wondered why things happened or turned out the way they did?
Paul said what he wanted to do he found that he couldn't do and what he didn't want to do that is what he did. Why was that? If Paul was free to choose or do things different than what God had planned why couldn't he do what he wanted to do, or not do what he didn't want to do?
CHB
Quote from: Shadow on April 24, 2010, 01:43:14 AM
What a great post WillieH :bgdance: :girlheart: :icon_flower: (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8033.msg94826#msg94826)
Good to see you back Cardinal :icon_flower:
:cloud9: Thanks, Shadow!
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 11:08:22 PM
GOOD MEN WILL LIVE
BAD MEN WILL DIE
"Just as there are wages for good, there is punishment for wrong, as the penalty for sin is eternal death in a place called Hell."Seems a Baptist Minister who came to my door last night, believes this very same thing.
He took exception to my conversation with several members of his church, after their attempt to solicit.
They also gave relevant verses to support their disposition.
"A fun, clean, and memorable experience for the children."peacemaker
Quote from: CHB on April 24, 2010, 03:06:17 AM
One thing I can honestly say is, I am so thankful that God gave me the knowledge of knowing that he is in control of my past, present, and future. I would honestly be a nervous wreck and probably go insane if I thought my salvation or my daily life for that matter was left in my hands.
God created us. He fashioned our minds, I had nothing to do with that. If I had I might be able to change some things different from what God had planned for me. How can we think for a moment that we weak humans can thwart the will of God? Why do we think the way we do? Why do we do the things we do? Have you ever looked back on your life and wondered why things happened or turned out the way they did?
Paul said what he wanted to do he found that he couldn't do and what he didn't want to do that is what he did. Why was that? If Paul was free to choose or do things different than what God had planned why couldn't he do what he wanted to do, or not do what he didn't want to do?
CHB
Why does Paul place the blame on sin and not God?
Quote from: jabcat on April 24, 2010, 02:22:46 AM
It's such a complicated topic - clarifying, I'm not saying I believe God's will can be thwarted. I believe He ultimately gets exactly what He wants. :thumbsup:
Doesn't that imply that it's alright with God if men rape and murder each other as long as it's only for a little while? like, a lifetime? After all, God will have his way sooner or later, ultimately!
Quote from: Theo Book on April 24, 2010, 12:39:28 PM
Quote from: jabcat on April 24, 2010, 02:22:46 AM
It's such a complicated topic - clarifying, I'm not saying I believe God's will can be thwarted. I believe He ultimately gets exactly what He wants. :thumbsup:
Doesn't that imply that it's alright with God if men rape and murder each other as long as it's only for a little while? like, a lifetime? After all, God will have his way sooner or later, ultimately!
Not even sure where you would get that from what I said Theo - unless it's some bias in your perception? I don't know, because no, I don't think that, and your take on what I said actually s/w surprises me. Why would you say that?
Do you have the same response to this verse? "God works all things according to the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11), because those are the direct Words of God, not mine.
James, the meaning of that verse varies with the readers view on "all" and "things".
Surely some (maybe Theo included?) will say it's about God working in His elect.
IMO, that's a distortion to attempt to fit an already-established POV. I didn't always believe in UR. Grudgingly believed in ET until God showed me different. I dunno if that's what Theo thinks about it or not.
Adding to my thought above though; Also, our puny, futile attempts to get our own way, including our disobedience for a season - and God ultimately/overall getting His way and working things exactly to the point where He wants them to go, ensuring the final outcome - IMO, can be two different things, though intricately connected within His overall plan.
Maybe we should just admit that it's much bigger than us and our inadequate attempts to fully understand or explain it, and recognize together that He's the Potter and we're the clay; and how He goes about working His plan of reconciling His whole creation back to Himself - (he has made known to us the mystery of his will in accord with his favor that he set forth in him as a plan for the fullness of times, to sum up all things in Christ, in heaven and on earth Eph 1:9,10) - is His business. :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on April 24, 2010, 01:28:01 PMMaybe we should just admit that it's much bigger than us and our inadequate attempts to fully understand or explain it, and recognize together that He's the Potter and we're the clay
Sorry, that doesn't work for me. Isn't this forum about at least trying to understand the Potter? Plus I think it's not just a minor issue.
Quote from: jabcat on April 24, 2010, 12:47:52 PM
(JC)Quote
It's such a complicated topic - clarifying, I'm not saying I believe God's will can be thwarted. I believe He ultimately gets exactly what He wants. :thumbsup:
(TB) Doesn't that imply that it's alright with God if men rape and murder each other as long as it's only for a little while? like, a lifetime? After all, God will have his way sooner or later, ultimately!
(JC)
Not even sure where you would get that from what I said Theo - unless it's some bias in your perception? I don't know, because no, I don't think that, and your take on what I said actually s/w surprises me. Why would you say that?
That's why it was a question instead of an accusation. I did not know what it is you were saying. Not bias, fear.
(JC)QuoteDo you have the same response to this verse? "God works all things according to the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11), because those are the direct Words of God, not mine.
nope! I agree with the words of God, just question the conclusions of men.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 24, 2010, 04:00:37 AM
Quote from: CHB on April 24, 2010, 03:06:17 AM
One thing I can honestly say is, I am so thankful that God gave me the knowledge of knowing that he is in control of my past, present, and future. I would honestly be a nervous wreck and probably go insane if I thought my salvation or my daily life for that matter was left in my hands.
God created us. He fashioned our minds, I had nothing to do with that. If I had I might be able to change some things different from what God had planned for me. How can we think for a moment that we weak humans can thwart the will of God? Why do we think the way we do? Why do we do the things we do? Have you ever looked back on your life and wondered why things happened or turned out the way they did?
Paul said what he wanted to do he found that he couldn't do and what he didn't want to do that is what he did. Why was that? If Paul was free to choose or do things different than what God had planned why couldn't he do what he wanted to do, or not do what he didn't want to do?
CHB
Why does Paul place the blame on sin and not God?
Same reason Eve placed the blame of what she did on the serpent. Because it is this sinful flesh that we dwell in that causes us to sin. Then you have to ask yourself, where did this sinful flesh come from?
(Rom. 7:14-25) Paul also said For I know that in me (that is in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing. (Verse 25) So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; BUT WITH THE FLESH THE LAW OF SIN.
CHB
To WW and Theo. I understand your concerns Theo about peoples' interpretations. Agreed. And I see what you're asking more clearly now, sorry for part of the response, I s/w misunderstood. And yes Tony, I believe a big part of this forum is "to better understand".
Regardless of what anyone else may believe or has posted, a re-reading of what I've personally posted earlier, it would be seen that I've said I believe we do often resist, and make choices that are "the wrong choices", by which we are corrected, and learn a better way/direction. Is that God's will? Must be, because He's the one that put that process in place. [see Cardinal's post about us driving, making turns, God putting roadblocks in our path so we take a different direction. I.e., back to the post that initiated this current exchange, God ultimately gets what He wants].
Does God "like" rape and murder? Of course not. Those are choices we make, yet within an overall construct of God's creation and ultimate control and His bringing ALL things to an ultimate good conclusion. Can I explain that any more fuller or better than that? Maybe not, right at this moment. Yes Tony, I believe understanding is good. Revelation is even better. I believe we get that not only from the scriptures, but from our relationship with the Lord, through prayer and according to His timing and will for us to understand. I only personally have partial understanding and revelation right now, as I believe does everyone - as we "look through a glass darkly". So at some point, I do believe there is a bottom line of ..."it is written, But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand". (Is. 64:8) God is our Creator and He has the power to mold us according to His plan. We are nothing but clay relying on the Potter's wonderful working and the more we submit to His molding process, the more [and more quickly] we will come out pleasing before Him. Sometimes He does break the vessel and "start over". Also either Isaiah or Jeremiah said do we question the Potter, why did you make me (this vessel) this way, without a handle, etc.?
Does God "like" sin? I don't think so. Did He allow it/is it part of His process for our learning and growth? I think so. He turned all to disobedience. He lowered us into this realm. He is giving us an experience of evil. I don't claim to know every minor detail of how and why God does this. And honestly, the more any of us understand and think we have it figured out, I'm going to figure that due to us seeing through a glass darkly, there's still more to know and understand - partly, because that's why we're here. So at some point don't we believe the basics of what He's said in His Word and trust Him? Those basics is what I've tried to personally express. There are many details that we could argue and divide over, that IMO, would be silly - because I don't think we're going to FULLY understand it until we're done with this life. So what about in the meantime? :bigGrin:
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil021.html
willieH: Hi brother, WW... :cloud9:
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 24, 2010, 01:23:37 PM
James, the meaning of that verse varies with the readers view on "all" and "things".
Surely some (maybe Theo included?) will say it's about God working in His elect.
But that is
NOT what the verse says, WW! It requires INSERTION/ADDITION of thoughts TO what is actually SAID... in order to arrive at this conclusion. :sigh:
What the verse ...SAYS... is that GOD is WORKING, ...ALL [pas] THINGS [agathos]... the word "agathos" in definition, means "GOOD"... as well as "THINGS"... Here's the rub... :Sparkletooth:
This very same word which appears in
Eph 1:11 [agathos=good/things] is used in the following verses:
2 Cor 5:17 --
"behold OLD -- THINGS -- are PASSED AWAY"... what "OLD things", are PASSED AWAY? Is this saying "OLD GOOD"? Funny enough, ...it IS! For ALL "things" which proceed from
YHVH, cannot be considered OTHER than "GOOD"... For HE created EVERYTHING, including the "THINGS" [men] which DO EVIL "THINGS"...
Rom 15:27 --
"...for if the Gentiles have been made partakers of spiritual -- THINGS -- their duty is also to minister unto them in CARNAL --THINGS-- The KNOWLEDGE/experience of EVIL is a GOOD THING... for said KNOWLEDGE defines its OPPOSITE [good] for what it
IS... God Himself CREATED (revealed) EVIL... (in its ENTIRETY) EVERYTHING that IS EVIL... is defined to BE so... by GOOD... which He also created (revealed)
The MILK oriented MIND shall think within itself, that EVIL is something completely BAD, serving NO GOOD PURPOSE... and UNNECESSARY, and in "THINKING" this... it DEMOTES the Creator, for "creating it"! :mshock:
ALL THINGS within the "creation" of GOD, are permeated with HIS PURPOSE... which is to DEFINE that which is ACCEPTABLE and that which is NOT, concerning the LIVING of LIFE.
If there were NO POVERTY, ...HOW could the state of "RICHES" truly be
known and appreciated to ITS FULLNESS?
If there were NO UGLY, ...HOW could the state of "BEAUTY" truly be
known and appreciated to ITS FULLNESS?
If there were NO DEATH, ...HOW could the state of "LIFE" truly be known and appreciated to ITS FULLNESS?
The principle is SO EASY to "SEE", that most, in vainly looking for that particular "TREE", cannot SEE IT, for the FOREST is "in the way"... :sigh:
That the RELIGIOUS argue that the TEMPORAL appearance of "rape, murder, thievery, etc." is distasteful, ...I can certainly agree with... :nod:
That they think that GOD has/had/will have NOTHING to do with that TEMPORAL appearance is
IGNORANT... for He stands aside and not only LETS it OCCUR... but DECLARED that it would OCCUR, ...before the Creation --
Isaiah 46:10-11 -- Rom 4:17 To DECREE that EVIL as a PRINCIPLE is NOT GOOD (in some capacity), is to question the one which CREATED it, to BE the PRINCIPLE that it ...IS...
GOD took and PURPOSED, the ULTIMATE EVIL (the crucifixtion of our Savior who SINNED NOT)... and in that OCCURANCE, ...produced the ULTIMATE GOOD, which is Salvation for the "ALL" -- who SINNED without inhibition or limition, the "rape, murder, thievery, adultery, etc... :dontknow:
:Peace:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on April 24, 2010, 08:59:13 PMYes Tony, I believe understanding is good.
Isn't trying to understand some sort of prayer? Prayer is to come closer to Father. Trying to understand is basicly the same. :dontknow:
QuoteRevelation is even better.
Especially when I started about every article was a revelation :winkgrin:
QuoteAnd honestly, the more any of us understand and think we have it figured out, I'm going to figure that due to us seeing through a glass darkly, there's still more to know and understand - partly, because that's why we're here.
I think that dark glass can come more clear over time. But it's also possible we sometimes can find a very clear spot in it. From that we can derive outlines. And the dark spots still stay guesswork. But... the chase is better than the catch :bgdance:
:bigGrin:
willieH: Hi TB... :cloud9:
This answer will take TWO parts...
PART ONE:Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 11:08:22 PM(TB)Quote
Wrong comparison; your hand has not been given free will by your mind.
(WH) "Wrong", as compared to what? YOU and Your opinion?
Nope! WRONG as compared to reality. You do not think with your hands. You were not given free reach, or free clutch, you were given free will. Try dealing with the subject.
:laughing7: And I guess we are to ask YOU what "reality" is, are we?
James [jabcat] and other mods have requested that we NOT discuss "FREE WILL"...
But in the end, until you produce SCRIPTURE which NOTES that God gave this "GIFT" to men, it is YOU which are not basing your beliefs ...in "REALITY"... :dontknow: And your basis for this "GIFT" remains,
OTHER than SCRIPTURAL and
OTHER than "REALITY"...
(WH)
Quote
It is WRITTEN that ALL HAVE SINNED... this was determined about YOU, before you drew a breath, bro.
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 11:08:22 PMAgain, NOPE!
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, NEITHER HAVING DONE ANY good or EVIL, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Paul is not talking about men who are made to sin so God can bless them with forgiveness. He is talking about all men being made by God, some who choose good, some who choose evil, and in their goodness and in their evil, God makes a use for them all to his ultimate purpose.
You are reading so many things into this statement which observes
Rom 9:11, that basically you found it upon FICTION and not REALITY, in order to gain your present position...
Paul says NOTHING of "choosing" anything in this verse... He is noting that the
ELECTION of GOD is UNMOVEABLE by men... That they SHALL DO, as HE HAS DECREED they SHALL... NOT as they [vainly think themselves to] "choose"...
The entirety of
Rom 9 is completely DEDICATED to this premise, which concludes -- :sigh: -- with your "stumbling" [
Rom 9:31-32]:
Rom 9:16 --
So THEN, it is ...NOT... of him that willeth [man via his "choosing"], nor of him that runneth [man "living" his course] but OF GOD, that sheweth mercy... This is noting that MAN in his "choosing and living", has NOTHING to do with the MERCY of GOD... which EXCLUSIVELY comes FROM HIM of HIS DECISION alone. :nod:
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture sayeth unto Pharaoh, even for this SAME PURPOSE, ...have, ...I... raised thee up, that I might show MY POWER, ...IN THEE... and that My name might be DECLARED throughout all the earth... ---> This verse is noting that this "chief evildoer" and "opposer" of GOD was RAISED UP (into that position), ...BY GOD! Can you NOT see this, TB? Are you so purposely BLIND, as to IGNORE that which is BEFORE YOUR EYES?Rom 9:18 --
THEREFORE, ...hath HE, mercy on whom HE WILL, and whom HE WILL, ...HE HARDENETH ---> There is no "choosing" (done by men) mentioned here, Theo... all MERCY and HARDENING emerge of HIS WILL, not of the men that think themselves to "choose it" or not... :dontknow:
Rom 9:19 --
Thou wilt say unto me, WHY does He yet find fault? For WHO hath RESISTED, ...His WILL? ---> Come on Theo, are you really following this? This verse raises the QUESTION -- that GOD is imposing HIS WILL upon us, yet STILL finds FAULT in us... How can that be? Well, to prove a point... which is done on a TEMPORAL basis, for our OWN GOOD:Rom 9:20 --
Nay but O man, ...WHO are THOU that repliest [argues] against GOD? Shall the thing FORMED, say unto Him that FORMED, ..."why hast THOU made ME, thus?" ---> Are you still with me, Theo? Who are MEN, to question GOD? Even though in the finite condition we find ourselves, we cannot POSSIBLY fathom or comprehend the BIG PIC? Think about it bro, as you continue:
Rom 9:21 --
Hath not the POTTER -- POWER OVER the CLAY? of the SAME LUMP, to make ONE vessel unto HONOR, and another unto DISHONOR? ---> GOD noting that HE Himself, is making the "dishonorable portion" as well as the "honorable"... which said composition (honor and dishonor) is found in the very SAME LUMP of CLAY.Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 11:08:22 PMRom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Paul is not saying God chooses to not have mercy on some because he made them evil, he is saying that because some men choose evil, God will use them for evil to bring about his ultimate purpose.
That is NOT what it is SAYING at ALL, Theo... YOU insert your belief INTO what is SAID... NOTHING is stated in this passage about MEN CHOOSING anything.
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 11:08:22 PMRom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Look at how and WHEN God determines a pot is good or evil. He does not predetermine goodness or evilness for a pot in the making. He waits until the finished product makes its intent known, THEN he pronounces it good or evil according to its own choices.
Not that you followed my address of what is SAID of these verses... but you limit GOD and His UNCHANGING and ETERNAL "determinations" -- to time as it unfolds, instead of the FACT that this chapter notes OTHERWISE. Which PLAINLY NOTES, ...that Jacob and Esau were DESTINED to LIVE according to the notations of the ELECTION of GOD which PRECEEDED their lives...
I will end this at this point and continue in --
PART TWO...
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: CHB on April 24, 2010, 05:29:59 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 24, 2010, 04:00:37 AM
Quote from: CHB on April 24, 2010, 03:06:17 AM
One thing I can honestly say is, I am so thankful that God gave me the knowledge of knowing that he is in control of my past, present, and future. I would honestly be a nervous wreck and probably go insane if I thought my salvation or my daily life for that matter was left in my hands.
God created us. He fashioned our minds, I had nothing to do with that. If I had I might be able to change some things different from what God had planned for me. How can we think for a moment that we weak humans can thwart the will of God? Why do we think the way we do? Why do we do the things we do? Have you ever looked back on your life and wondered why things happened or turned out the way they did?
Paul said what he wanted to do he found that he couldn't do and what he didn't want to do that is what he did. Why was that? If Paul was free to choose or do things different than what God had planned why couldn't he do what he wanted to do, or not do what he didn't want to do?
CHB
Why does Paul place the blame on sin and not God?
Same reason Eve placed the blame of what she did on the serpent. Because it is this sinful flesh that we dwell in that causes us to sin. Then you have to ask yourself, where did this sinful flesh come from?
(Rom. 7:14-25) Paul also said For I know that in me (that is in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing. (Verse 25) So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; BUT WITH THE FLESH THE LAW OF SIN.
CHB
Ask myself? Why not show that Eve and Paul blamed God.
willieH: Hi Theo... :cloud9:
PART TWO:Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 11:08:22 PMJeremiah 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
God tells us WHEN he determines a pot is good or evil, and it is NOT prior to its being formed.
This assertion you just made, ...is DIRECT CONTRADICTION to
Isaiah 46:10 and
Rom 4:17, as well as
Rom 9:11 which was just addressed... :mshock:
Also you CONSTRAIN and CONFINE, GOD (who is ETERNAL in His position), to His own CREATION of TIME and man, ...noting that His determinations are CONFINED to the "when's" of TIME and MAN, ...rather than submitting to the ALMIGHTY to which ALL THINGS ...ARE... in submission:
1 Cor 15:22 -- 1 Cor 12:6 -- God does not WAIT upon us, for us to make "when" available to HIM... In such placing of the "CART
before the horse"... you stumble in your present understanding...
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 11:08:22 PMJer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 IF THAT NATION, against whom I have pronounced, TURN from their evil, I WILL REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Unlike yourself, which picks and chooses what you address (and sidesteps many beneficial points), I shall continue this answer in detail...
(1) GOD does NOT
REPENT as does a man:
1 Sam 15:29(2) Isn't it interesting that GOD "thought" to DO EVIL, against man?
None of this is dependent upon the [vain] choosing of these men (which are,
of themselves UNABLE to choose GOOD -- for it is the GOODNESS of GOD which LEADS one to repentence --
Rom 2:4)... That which OCCURS in the Creation of GOD, is of
HIS WORD... for He creates ALL THINGS within it... including ALL the events that take place, due to HIS DECLARATION, of them... which, said DECLARATION was noted by
HIS WORD.
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 11:08:22 PMJer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 IF IT DO EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I WILL REPENT OF THE GOOD, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
Again, your spiritual lack, supposes to demote
YHVH to the necessitation of REPENTENCE (regret/change), when He knew BEFOREHAND, all that would take place. Which (to use your previous designation), ...is just INSANITY.
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 11:08:22 PMYOU say man cannot make his ways good, GOD says differently.
Jer 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return YE now every one from his evil way, and MAKE YOUR WAYS AND YOUR DOINGS GOOD.
How many times shall you argue against REASON, Theo? You make SINFUL MEN, the creators/generators of GOOD within themselves, ...not NEEDING any assistance from GOD! Please, brother! Are you serious? :mshock:
QuoteGOD TELLS US ABOUT THE DECISIONS OF MEN BEING A FACTOR IN WHO THEY BECOME
Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
How many MEN have DIED, Theo? How many of them were, ...sinners? :dontknow:
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 11:08:22 PMGOOD MEN WILL LIVE
Ezek 18:5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, 7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; 8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, 9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.
Temporarily... but ALL succumb to the law of REAPING [death] what they have SOWN [sin]...
How many of those addressed, LIVED, Theo? :dontknow:
How many of them were (of themselves), JUST? :dontknow:
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 11:08:22 PMBAD MEN WILL DIE
Ezek 18:10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,
11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,
12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,
13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
Again... same thing... He that lives by the SWORD, shall DIE by the SWORD...
Matt 26:52What do you say of a drunken, crime practicing, ATHIEST which lives to be 90, Theo?
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 11:08:22 PMSONS DO NOT HAVE TO FOLLOW THEIR FATHER'S FOOTSTEPS
Ezek 18:14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,
16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
More short-sightedness... :pitiful:
As I just said, How many of these actually WALKED in the "statutes of
YHVH"? (i.e. were -- SIN-LESS?)
We live and are judged as individuals. Because a father raises his son in poverty, does not mean the son shall remain in poverty. That a father was a murderer, cannot prevent the call of GOD upon the son to be a preacher.
However, the SIN of the Father shall be VISITED upon the SON --
Ex 20:5 -- The SON shall be affected by the SIN of his FATHER, ...but the SON does not have to
DIE for the SIN of his father...
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 11:08:22 PMFATHERS ARE NOT SAVED BY THEIR SONS BEHAVIOUR
Ezek 18:18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
Though you continue to wander off the TOPIC... All DIE by the REAPING of DEATH due to the SOWING of their own SIN... :rolleye:
How many of these, DIED in their INIQUITY? :dontknow:
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 11:08:22 PMBOTH FATHER AND SON CAN CHANGE, CHOOSE GOOD OVER EVIL, REPENT, AND LIVE
Ezek 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Who of these "returned" from his "ways"?
This is going nowhere... LIFE is within
CHRIST for He is the [ONLY] WAY [we must needs walk] the TRUTH [we must needs apply] and the LIFE [that we must needs, live]... Without HIS TRUTH in the LIFE... the workings of DEATH are afoot... and no number of postings of Scriptural notations from the OLD COVENANT shall change that.
NONE of those addressed in the Scriptures you posted, LIVED... they ALL DIED. (2 deaths, 1st -- in the spirit, then... 2nd -- in the flesh)
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 11:08:22 PMBOTH CAN TURN FROM GOOD TO DO EVIL, AND DIE
Ezek 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
You make me wish to regret my promise to address the DETAILS of your words... Already addressed all of this... but a promise is a promise! :cloud9:
How many of these are still LIVING, Theo? :dontknow:
(WH)
Quote
Neither has YOUR "MIND" been given "free will" by GOD (if it had truly been given, it would be "DULY" noted as a "gift" in the WORD, however... it is NOT WRITTEN in the WORD, and is therefore reduced to being an ASSUMPTION made by YOU)...
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 11:08:22 PMNope! "Free will" is a definitioin of a concept spoken by God. it is not the words found in scripture, but those which are recognized by all who read scripture. Just as "prodigal son" brings to men's minds, that son who wasted his inheritance in "riotous living" - yet "prodigal" is not found in scripture.
"Free will" is not found in scripture, but the concept "free will" brings to the mind IS taught in scripture, by virtue of the meaning inherent in "CHOOSE YE this day whom YE WILL serve. See it? "CHOOSE YE" whom "YE WILL." FREE WILL by definition, not by inclusion in the written account.
Like ...the trinity, ...the rapture, ...Eternal separation from God, ...fallen angels, ...Millennium, ...Spiritual Israel, ...Hell, and others... does your SUPPOSITION of these find NO SCRIPTURAL basis... nor notation. Enough!
Though I am well able to argue against these (which you likely believe) as well as "FREE WILL"... the subject of "FREE WILL" vs "CDS" [Complete Divine Sovereignty] is NOT ALLOWED on TENTMAKER.
From this point on I shall observe that you are baiting, by continuing to propose "FREE WILL"... and if you mention it again, I will report the post... :sigh:
The STAFF and OWNER of TENTMAKER does not wish us to discuss this... so whattaya say, let's drop it and get back to the TOPIC?
(WH)
Quote
What actually IS "DULY" NOTED and ACTUALLY WRITTEN in the WORD, is that you were (as has everyone) ...CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- as well as inserted -- IN ADAM (into his sinfulness) -- Rom 5:12 -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- certainly NEITHER of these which BIND YOU to SIN and DEATH, were "your call", bro Theo...
QuoteRe-read Jeremiah 18:7-10
"AT WHAT INSTANT I SHALL SPEAK concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 IF THAT NATION, against whom I have pronounced, TURN from their evil, I WILL REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Jer 18:9 And AT WHAT INSTANT I SHALL SPEAK concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 IF IT DO EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I WILL REPENT OF THE GOOD, wherewith I said I would benefit them."
That which OCCURS in "REALITY"...
IS the "ACTUAL REALITY" which OCCURS... no "if's, coulda's, woulda's, or shoulda's"... All these are FICTIONAL and VAIN IMAGINATIONS.
What was DECLARED [by the
WORD] to OCCUR, ...DID.
End of story. :grave:
(WH)
Quote(2) You "say" that I "TOTALLY ignore many scriptures" in order to make "my doctrine palatable" -- yet you name NONE...
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 11:08:22 PMI think you will find both Ezekial 18 and Jeremiah 18 in my prior posts. I simply did not repost them due to lenghty posting. AND the fact they were ignorded previously.
More of the same... You have not proven by ANY of the notations of
Ez 18 or
Jer 18, that UR is "erroneous", ...nor have you proven that the WILL of GOD, can be "thwarted" by men, in the presentation of them! :hijacked:
(WH)
Quote
(4) You are dependent upon a belief in "FREE WILL" as a "gift" from God, but fail to note where this is WRITTEN...
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 11:08:22 PMNope! Written again and again, "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve" has been referenced and quoted throughout.
NOPE... any dog "chooses"... any computer "chooses"... any insect "chooses"... this does not designate that these, because they in fact "CHOOSE", that this ability is FREE, nor that it is anything other than STRICTLY according to the WILL of
YHVH, regardless of the "choice" manifested"...
I have already given instance of PHARAOH, as "choosing" due to the HARDENING of GOD... which was not included in the forethought of PHARAOH's "choice", ...rather "his choice" was IMPOSED upon and affected BY GOD, who WORKS ALL THINGS according to HIS OWN WILL... Live with it.
I think both of us have either made (or not made) our points concerning this UNBIBLICAL sidestep ["free will"]...
As I said... any further discussion concerning "FREE WILL", will be a moderation matter...
I would be more than happy to accomodate you, but it is
NOT ALLOWED! :eyebrow:
Quote from: Theo Book on April 23, 2010, 11:08:22 PMI really do not see any purpose in continuing this dialogue, as we are diametrically opposed in the application of what is found in scripture. I will move on.
Thank God... :heat: ...pretty much, all you did in this reply was sidestep the topic... :offtopic:
Why not try to address the words THELEMA and BOULEMA as the TOPIC suggested, Theo?
...willieH :icon_king:
Quote from: PaulHazelwood
Ask myself? Why not show that Eve and Paul blamed God.
If our body of flesh is sin who put us in them? God did.
It also says that "God tempts no man" and God doesn't directly but because of circumstances and things that God puts in our path we are tempted. All paths comes from God and all leads back to him.
Thats just like everyone bowing the knee and the tongue confessing. God doesn't DIRECTLY make everyone bow and confess but he causes things to work out so they will. He reveals himself and by showing the world how much he loves them, everyone will be happy to bow and confess. Now, did God cause it or did man?
CHB
Almighty God
Almighty God
Almighty God
Thank you for showing your Sons that there is nothing greater than YOU.
And that in You we have our Faith, Hope and Love.
Your mercy endures forever, it has no beginning nor end.
And the proof of Love is our Lord Jesus Christ Who, lowered Himself to redeem the wonder of Your creation.
Amen.
Where is Eden?
Christ is Eden — the overlap!
Quote from: CHB on April 25, 2010, 01:55:42 AM
Quote from: PaulHazelwood
Ask myself? Why not show that Eve and Paul blamed God.
If our body of flesh is sin who put us in them? God did.
It also says that "God tempts no man" and God doesn't directly but because of circumstances and things that God puts in our path we are tempted. All paths comes from God and all leads back to him.
Thats just like everyone bowing the knee and the tongue confessing. God doesn't DIRECTLY make everyone bow and confess but he causes things to work out so they will. He reveals himself and by showing the world how much he loves them, everyone will be happy to bow and confess. Now, did God cause it or did man?
CHB
I appreciate that you believe scripture in the way you do. However there is a reason I have the point of view I have. One reason is that we find no one in scripture glorifying God for their own evil deeds.
Please show Eve or Paul stating the same kinds of things you are saying. It is a simple request in order to help me consider what you believe to be truth in the manner in which you present it.
Please wash our feet Father as your Holy Son has washed ours.
Then please Father, let not the questions arise, after, we are clean.
I personally believe that there is a paradox in the issue of whether we choose or God chooses for us that goes beyond what we can see and define with our minds and words.
"My thoughts are higher than your thoughts"
"Who has known the mind of the Lord"
"We see through a glass darkly"
The importance of choosing, in the individual response to God, is everywhere born witness to in Scripture. This is the truth in the limited experience and lower perspective of man in the mortal plane. God has created us within it. It is unassailable and unalterable. No matter what I "know" about the overall eternal perspective and irreversible purposes of the Almighty- He has created this dichotomy of choice, within the mystery, so no one may boast- "You(God) are justified when you judge."
However, when we try to limit God to operating within the confines of this narrow(by comparison) stewardship of time within which he has placed us, we move into error. Yes we must choose. So it has been appointed. No, we cannot clearly see how God has established the outworking of His predetermined will as it manifests through our wills- but we know that He cannot be controverted by man or angel. The scriptures also everywhere testify to this. How should I, a mere man, sort it all out in this life? I am better off learning to choose properly the works God has chosen for me as a son. But our choosing is to lead us into rest, and that rest is found in those works "that were prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them".
Yes, it seems that a fatalism comes from some proponents of God's absolute sovereignty when they somehow begin to believe that they see from God's unlimited perspective and that others should see as they do. They understand perhaps that God is sovereign, but forget that they still must make choices with eternal implications every day.
Often, the result is the two sides of the coin are seeking to shear themselves from one another into two pieces, neither of which is of any use in God's economy.
Yes Theo, God has said we must choose in countless places and ways and I agree if we disregard that imperative there is great loss to be had. God has also said that He "has chosen and predestined" and though we cannot see the two as one- he can. We will understand it better by and by. As regards His clear declarations concerning His eternal purposes, you seem to be willing to ignore the scriptures that apply to things God has set forth from before the foundations of the world- that Christ would be slain and raised providing resurrection for everyone who died in Adam (Ro 11:32;1 Cor 15:22;1Jn 2:2), that all things will be summed up in Christ(Eph 1:10, 1 Cor 15:28; Col 1:20), that God would fill all in all(Ro 11:36,1 Cor 15:28) and that "every living creature in heaven, on earth and under the earth" will give Him glory(Rev 5:13;Phil 2:10).
So debating the various perspectives on God's absolute will and man's stewardship of time and life have merit and are interesting- but they have no impact on the Almighty's thelema or His boulema- He will do what He will do because He is who He is. What we believe will have no bearing on it, and in the final outworking He will be all in all, because He desires it so & wills it so.
Peace, John
Quote from: eaglesway on April 25, 2010, 07:41:51 PM
I personally believe that there is a paradox in the issue of whether we choose or God chooses for us that goes beyond what we can see and define with our minds and words.
"My thoughts are higher than your thoughts"
"Who has known the mind of the Lord"
"We see through a glass darkly"
The importance of choosing, in the individual response to God, is everywhere born witness to in Scripture. This is the truth in the limited experience and lower perspective of man in the mortal plane. God has created us within it. It is unassailable and unalterable. No matter what I "know" about the overall eternal perspective and irreversible purposes of the Almighty- He has created this dichotomy of choice, within the mystery, so no one may boast- "You(God) are justified when you judge."
However, when we try to limit God to operating within the confines of this narrow(by comparison) stewardship of time within which he has placed us, we move into error. Yes we must choose. So it has been appointed. No, we cannot clearly see how God has established the outworking of His predetermined will as it manifests through our wills- but we know that He cannot be controverted by man or angel. The scriptures also everywhere testify to this. How should I, a mere man, sort it all out in this life? I am better off learning to choose properly the works God has chosen for me as a son. But our choosing is to lead us into rest, and that rest is found in those works "that were prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them".
Yes, it seems that a fatalism comes from some proponents of God's absolute sovereignty when they somehow begin to believe that they see from God's unlimited perspective and that others should see as they do. They understand perhaps that God is sovereign, but forget that they still must make choices with eternal implications every day.
Often, the result is the two sides of the coin are seeking to shear themselves from one another into two pieces, neither of which is of any use in God's economy.
Yes Theo, God has said we must choose in countless places and ways and I agree if we disregard that imperative there is great loss to be had. God has also said that He "has chosen and predestined" and though we cannot see the two as one- he can. We will understand it better by and by. As regards His clear declarations concerning His eternal purposes, you seem to be willing to ignore the scriptures that apply to things God has set forth from before the foundations of the world- that Christ would be slain and raised providing resurrection for everyone who died in Adam (Ro 11:32;1 Cor 15:22;1Jn 2:2), that all things will be summed up in Christ(Eph 1:10, 1 Cor 15:28; Col 1:20), that God would fill all in all(Ro 11:36,1 Cor 15:28) and that "every living creature in heaven, on earth and under the earth" will give Him glory(Rev 5:13;Phil 2:10).
So debating the various perspectives on God's absolute will and man's stewardship of time and life have merit and are interesting- but they have no impact on the Almighty's thelema or His boulema- He will do what He will do because He is who He is. What we believe will have no bearing on it, and in the final outworking He will be all in all, because He desires it so & wills it so.
Peace, John
Best response yet. Thanks.
QuoteSo debating the various perspectives on God's absolute will and man's stewardship of time and life have merit and are interesting- but they have no impact on the Almighty's thelema or His boulema- He will do what He will do because He is who He is. What we believe will have no bearing on it, and in the final outworking He will be all in all, because He desires it so & wills it so.
I have not really met anyone yet that believes our debates or opinions or what we argue for or against changes God but it sure can mean the difference between someone being in bondage and someone being free.
If God just does what he does and nothing else matters then most of the bible is pointless.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 25, 2010, 06:58:45 AM
Quote from: CHB on April 25, 2010, 01:55:42 AM
Quote from: PaulHazelwood
Ask myself? Why not show that Eve and Paul blamed God.
If our body of flesh is sin who put us in them? God did.
It also says that "God tempts no man" and God doesn't directly but because of circumstances and things that God puts in our path we are tempted. All paths comes from God and all leads back to him.
Thats just like everyone bowing the knee and the tongue confessing. God doesn't DIRECTLY make everyone bow and confess but he causes things to work out so they will. He reveals himself and by showing the world how much he loves them, everyone will be happy to bow and confess. Now, did God cause it or did man?
CHB
I appreciate that you believe scripture in the way you do. However there is a reason I have the point of view I have. One reason is that we find no one in scripture glorifying God for their own evil deeds.
Please show Eve or Paul stating the same kinds of things you are saying. It is a simple request in order to help me consider what you believe to be truth in the manner in which you present it.
Paul blamed Adam (Rom. 5:18-19). Adam blamed Eve (Gen. 3:12) Eve blamed the serpent (Gen. 3:13. The serpent blamed God (Gen. 3:5).
The trail leads back to God. I don't think "blame" is the right word here even though I did use it.
Adam and Eve were sinful flesh and God said "thou shalt not". If God hadn't said "thou shalt not" Eve probably wouldn't have felt guilty about disobeying God, because Paul said "whatever is not of faith is sin".
(1Cor. 10:23) "All things are lawful for me but all things are not expedient".
CHB
Quote from: CHB on April 27, 2010, 02:10:09 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 25, 2010, 06:58:45 AM
Quote from: CHB on April 25, 2010, 01:55:42 AM
Quote from: PaulHazelwood
Ask myself? Why not show that Eve and Paul blamed God.
If our body of flesh is sin who put us in them? God did.
It also says that "God tempts no man" and God doesn't directly but because of circumstances and things that God puts in our path we are tempted. All paths comes from God and all leads back to him.
Thats just like everyone bowing the knee and the tongue confessing. God doesn't DIRECTLY make everyone bow and confess but he causes things to work out so they will. He reveals himself and by showing the world how much he loves them, everyone will be happy to bow and confess. Now, did God cause it or did man?
CHB
I appreciate that you believe scripture in the way you do. However there is a reason I have the point of view I have. One reason is that we find no one in scripture glorifying God for their own evil deeds.
Please show Eve or Paul stating the same kinds of things you are saying. It is a simple request in order to help me consider what you believe to be truth in the manner in which you present it.
Paul blamed Adam (Rom. 5:18-19). Adam blamed Eve (Gen. 3:12) Eve blamed the serpent (Gen. 3:13. The serpent blamed God (Gen. 3:5).
The trail leads back to God. I don't think "blame" is the right word here even though I did use it.
Adam and Eve were sinful flesh and God said "thou shalt not". If God hadn't said "thou shalt not" Eve probably wouldn't have felt guilty about disobeying God, because Paul said "whatever is not of faith is sin".
(1Cor. 10:23) "All things are lawful for me but all things are not expedient".
CHB
I'd say the greater example here is that the one who will deceive the world is the one who blamed God.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 27, 2010, 02:20:21 AM
I'd say the greater example here is that the one who will deceive the world is the one who blamed God.
It's the woman you gave me. :thumbsup:
QuoteIt also says that "God tempts no man" and God doesn't directly but because of circumstances and things that God puts in our path we are tempted. All paths comes from God and all leads back to him.
Ja 1:13 . Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
The statement your making above is indeed God tempting man. You will not find in scripture even a slight inference to show that God even indirectly temps man.
You are simply saying that God tempts man, he just does it indirectly, the scripture says that you are not to say that, but yet, here you are saying it.
every sunday all over the world people recite in churches:
""lead us not into temptation""
We all here know this is WRONG!
peace
chuckt
What part of my nature is being tempted? My soul? Or my Spirit?
There is nothing wrong with praying, "Lead me not into temptation", which simply means "steer me away from the things that entice me through the flesh". Anymore that it is wrong to pray, "lead me in paths of righteousness for thy namesake". Peace, John
We have to make choices everyday- we do not see from His perspective and prayer is a part of the way in which He works all things according to the counsel of His will. It is a mystery folks- we can't penetrate it all and totally eliminate our participation. Only the end view reveals His absolute will. "Today" is what I am given. "Today" if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts."
not me, i will not ask God to ""not lead me INTO temptation""
i think thats alot different than saying TO lead me in righteousness......
i also think its alot dofferent than asking him to ""save"" me FROM temptation or lead me Away FROM.....
i do however ask him to detach the fetters of faults that bind me......
here is another good one:
Abwûn O cosmic Birther, from whom the breath of life comes,
d'bwaschmâja who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration.
Nethkâdasch schmach May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest.
Têtê malkuthach. Your Heavenly Domain approaches.
Nehwê tzevjânach aikâna d'bwaschmâja af b'arha. Let Your will come true in the universe (all that vibrates) just as on earth (that is material and dense).
Hawvlân lachma d'sûnkanân jaomâna. Give us wisdom (understanding, assistance) for our daily need,
Waschboklân chaubên wachtahên aikâna daf chnân schwoken l'chaijabên. detach the fetters of faults that bind us, (karma) like we let go the guilt of others.
Wela tachlân l'nesjuna Let us not be lost in superficial things (materialism, common temptations),
ela patzân min bischa. but let us be freed from that what keeps us off from our true purpose.
Metol dilachie malkutha wahaila wateschbuchta l'ahlâm almîn. From You comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act, the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age.
Amên. Sealed in trust, faith and truth. (I confirm with my entire being)
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 27, 2010, 04:20:06 PM
QuoteIt also says that "God tempts no man" and God doesn't directly but because of circumstances and things that God puts in our path we are tempted. All paths comes from God and all leads back to him.
Ja 1:13 . Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
The statement your making above is indeed God tempting man. You will not find in scripture even a slight inference to show that God even indirectly temps man.
You are simply saying that God tempts man, he just does it indirectly, the scripture says that you are not to say that, but yet, here you are saying it.
How do you explain this verse?
(Gen. 22:1) And it came to pass after these things, THAT GOD DID TEMPT ABRAHAM.
(1Cor. 10:13) "God is faithful, who will NOT SUFFER YOU TO BE TEMPTED ABOVE THAT YE ARE ABLE; BUT WILL WITH THE TEMPTATION".
Notice it says "will WITH the TEMPTATION". Just like with Abraham God furnished the temptation and he also made a way of excape.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on April 27, 2010, 05:48:38 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 27, 2010, 04:20:06 PM
QuoteIt also says that "God tempts no man" and God doesn't directly but because of circumstances and things that God puts in our path we are tempted. All paths comes from God and all leads back to him.
Ja 1:13 . Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
The statement your making above is indeed God tempting man. You will not find in scripture even a slight inference to show that God even indirectly temps man.
You are simply saying that God tempts man, he just does it indirectly, the scripture says that you are not to say that, but yet, here you are saying it.
How do you explain this verse?
(Gen. 22:1) And it came to pass after these things, THAT GOD DID TEMPT ABRAHAM.
(1Cor. 10:13) "God is faithful, who will NOT SUFFER YOU TO BE TEMPTED ABOVE THAT YE ARE ABLE; BUT WILL WITH THE TEMPTATION".
Notice it says "will WITH the TEMPTATION". Just like with Abraham God furnished the temptation and he also made a way of excape.
CHB
Why do I need to explain it? You have brought forth a verse that says to not say God tempted you, then your saying God does tempt man even amidst a verse that instructs you to not say God tempts you.
You are the one that needs to do the explaining, I haven't presented the conflicting argument, you have.
:cloud9: Choose ye this day whom ye will serve. There is always a choice to be made even if we are oblivious to it sometimes, and because He made the tempter it is established to be that way by HIM. Ask Job jor Abraham if He deals with people that way. Blessings....
God does NOT solitate or intice us to sin.
PERIOD.
:cloud9: I never said He did, but He has established the tempter to provide a choice. He put Adam and Eve in the garden and presented a choice. Do you think God didn't know what the serpent was going to do? Blessings.....
:cloud9: And lets not forget this one.......
Matthew 4:1 KJV Then was Jesus led up of the SPIRIT into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Quoteauthor=Cardinal link=topic=8033.msg95082#msg95082 date=1272381737]
:cloud9: I never said He did,
i know.....
Quotebut He has established the tempter to provide a choice. He put Adam and Eve in the garden and presented a choice. Do you think God didn't know what the serpent was going to do? Blessings.....
i k ow what scripture says, and that he created the waster to destroy...ETC.....be that as it may, everytime i think i got all that ""serpent"" stuff and the garden and the tree's ETC ETC figured out, i dont......
its been 25 yrs now and im tired of trying to figure it out, what i know is, my mind, says yes or no...
and my tongue is dangerous...
peace
chuck
Quote from: Cardinal on April 27, 2010, 06:35:26 PM
:cloud9: And lets not forget this one.......
Matthew 4:1 KJV Then was Jesus led up of the SPIRIT into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
yup and it says to be tempted of the devil NOT ABBA FATHER!!!
would you TEMPT your child?
:cloud9: Yes, but the point is, the SPIRIT took him out there to be tempted in the first place. Blessings....
PS. Chuck, please don't feel I'm trying to give you a hard time if I disagree with you.......I just see things differently and I'm sharing what I see, same as you. And that goes for anything I write on any topic. :HeartThrob:
It appears this particular subject is one of those "passionate" ones that can lead us into more argument than debate. I've seen this in the past as well. This idea that God would never tempt us because of our interpretation of what one passage is saying against another is something each of us do need to come to terms with, within each of our own natures as I believe this is how God often brings revelation of his true nature to us, through questions and contemplations. Our spirits "hovering" (contemplating) over the face (identity) of the deep (unknown).
We don't go to revelation, it comes to us. And that is one great aspect about forums such as this, we all grow from each others experiences in personal revelations of what the Father has shown them.
For me, this is why I did ask which is being tempted, my spirit or my soul. Because the passage that states that God will tempt no man is telling me that my man is not tempted by the Spirit. My (carnal) man is tempted by carnal desires. Jesus was not tempted "by" the spirit in the wilderness. He was "led" by the spirit to be tempted by his "satan", his adversary, his flesh, his mind . . .
If I were to argue this, my question would then be, "if" Jesus was led by the spirit for the purpose of temptation, why then in what tradition calls the Lord's prayer, where Jesus is teaching us how we should pray, why would he have us pray "Lead us not into temptation . . ."?
Could it be there are some things that Jesus did that we in and of ourselves are not to do? Could it be that "The Lord's Prayer" is not one for mature saints to pray, but infants? If you think about it, who else would need to be "taught" how to pray than infants? And as infants, are they not in a much weaker state and would have a much harder time with temptation than a more mature believer who realizes their strength comes not from themselves, but from Christ?
Paul speaks of the fact that we are to rejoice while going through personal tribulation. I don't know about you, but when I get tempted to think or do things I know I shouldn't be thinking about or doing, "that" creates tribulation in me. So for me, temptation is very much a part of tribulation. Paul went through great lengths fighting in himself about it and writing to others about this inward battle as well. Yet it was "through" that temptation experience that Jesus returned in power.
If I believe that I'm not strong enough to resist temptation, then I promise you, I "will" be praying that God not lead me into it. However, if I'm in a place in my relationship where the things that were once a temptation, but no longer are due to being lost in love with the Father, then perhaps praying a prayer on temptation isn't all that critical.
Either way, it's something I'm to appy individually to my inner self, not to pronounce whether it's right or wrong to another. Just my thoughts.
hey guys and gals, i dont take offence, i love this place and its so refreshing from the ""other"" forum i use to post at...so, PLEASE remember some of that might have rubbed off on me.
i have NEVER felt any of you in attack mode :hihat:
nevertheless, we can say God is in control of everything, and there is nothing that gets past him. he is the generator of all things.
i do know of a scripture that says "woe to them that call evil good and good evil"
maybe that does not apply here...?
FACT:
for me any way is EVERTHING God does stems from love...even his punishments...
There is so much about YHVH we cant know at this time, BUT we do know what we are called too....
blessings yall
chuckt
and AMEN....in ALL things rejoice and give thanks....oh and again for me i ask god to deliever me from SELF. :thumbsup:
We all have different ways of working out that Gods will cannot be thwarted, I think most in this thread have that common denominator.
Some that do not have that factor in common can get pleasure in watching us debate and argue and get passionate for what we believe.
Nothing wrong with being passionate, or debating, or working things out amongst ourselves. It is actually the Trolls and people who think they are upsetting the fruit basket :laughing7: , that are missing out. They stand on the sidelines looking in, I feel sorry for them. I have learned alot from threads started by a troll. You can learn alot from a troll.
I would rather be passionate even while being wrong and thinking I have it all figured out than be lukewarm and not really caring about much.
Working out Gods Character in the light can be tough, those of us who were in the darkness of religion know how much bondage we were in when we are told to just conform and believe what we are told.
God's will cannot be thwarted, but working out Gods character is possible and useful and meaningful in understanding and growing to love him, rather than just to tolerate him because "He's God and your not going to do anything about it anyway".
That is from my walk at this time, not implying about anyone elses.
Hi All,
Never do I ever want to argue, pester, annoy, or cause any kind of disturbance. I just want to get to the bottom of things just like everyone else. I only present what God has shown me and where I am at in my understanding. I don't expect everyone to agree with me on anything. I am learning and the more I learn the more I realize I don't know much of anything. I have learned a lot from everyone of you on this forum. What do we have that wasn't given to us anyway. None of us has anything to boast about, all we have is something to discuss and learn about. Don't ever feel like I want to argue and don't ever feel intimidated by what I say. If you ever get angry or upset with me feel free to tell about it.
Paul said, God didn't tempt man, I said if God didn't tempt man directly he did indirectly. What I mean is God gave that job to Satan or through other means.
Paul said no where was there a verse that said God tempted anyone, I just presented one that I had forgotten about but it does exist and cannot be ignored.
Chuck said, God does NOT solitate or intice us to sin.
PERIOD.
God put the serpent and the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and said, "thou shalt not eat". Isn't that a type of temptation?
Put your 2 year old in a room full of toys and tell it not to touch the doll or the car and see what happens.
CHB
QuotePaul said what he wanted to do he found that he couldn't do and what he didn't want to do that is what he did. Why was that? If Paul was free to choose or do things different than what God had planned why couldn't he do what he wanted to do, or not do what he didn't want to do?
CHB, you have a missed the point of this scripture. Romans 7 isn't talking about man living under grace with sin, it is a picture of a man under the law, and Paul was using himself as an example. If you read right up to the end Paul questions, who can save him from that exsistance...thanks be it to Christ.
Paul declares that he was freed from that kind of living, he doesn't live like that anymore, he only lived like that under the law. As will any person who is trying to establish thier own uprightness...even christians and even universalists...anyone. But that same everyone can be brought out from it, like Paul was brought out, so can all.
Hi Dallas. I read that passage as Paul was looking forward to that deliverance, perhaps at the resurrection? When the mortal takes on immortality. He said "who shall deliver me"...that's my understanding anyway. James.
I thought that statement was a rhetorical question posed as a summary response to the condition defined previously(O wretched man that I am- under law in the flesh) and as an intro to the new state of deliverance from condemnation (I Thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord......there is now therefore no condemnation
Rom 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
O wretched man.... is about being under the law of sin and death
I Thank God through Jesus.... is about being under the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
jus' one's opinion, Peace, John
maybe so John, not sure. maybe though "no condemnation" has to do with the sentence of guilt being taken care of, though "no longer I but the sin that dwells in me" still at work - so still looking forward to complete deliverance through immortality. I may be wrong, wondering. OK, so out of the 3 of us, we've now got 3 or 4 possible variations of interpretation. :Whistle:
This is A.E. Knoch's take on the last part of 7 and first part of 8. From the Concordant Commentary;
15 This is the experience of one who does not realize his death to sin and the law, but who is endeavoring to keep the letter of the law. He finds that the law of sin in his members is far more potent than the law of God which appeals to his mind. He wants to do good; but cannot. He does things which he hates to do, hence charges his misery to the indwelling sin which has taken possession of his body. He is a wretched captive. This will be the experience of all who make an earnest effort to please God by obeying the letter of that law which was broken even before it reached the people (Ex.32:19) .
24 What is the answer to this wretched man's cry? It is grace. There is no other deliverance possible. This brings us back to where this disgression began, the reign of Grace at the end of the fifth chapter. It is only as we recognize the imperial sway of Grace, putting us beyond all possibility of condemnation, whether we sin or not, that we have real liberty and power sufficient to effect not only what was demanded by the law, but those higher duties which far transcend the righteous requirements of Sinai. Then we will not be wretched and self occupied, but happy and exulting in God, in Whose favor we are basking, and Whose delight we are, in Christ.
1 Condemnation is utterly out of the question for all in Christ Jesus. This is infinitely more than the atonement or shelter provided for sin by the sacrifices offered under the law. It is far beyond the pardon, or forgiveness, contained in the proclamation of the kingdom. The atonement needed to be renewed year by year, the pardon might be recalled, but the justification we have in Christ Jesus is nothing less than God's righteousness, which is absolutely inviolable. It was not secured by any act of ours and cannot be marred by aught that we can do. Sin only enhances the graciousness of it, but cannot sully or impair it.
2 The spirit's law of life, in Christ Jesus, is the opposite of the law of Sinai. That said: Obey, and live; disobey, and die. The spirit's law imparts life for the eons as God's gracious gift, apart from obedience or disobedience.
4 We do not fulfill the law in its letter. Grace leads us to act far beyond its spirit. Its just requirements, love to God and man, are fulfilled only by those who walk in spirit.
5 The flesh is not able to be subject to God's law. It is useless to try to train it to please Him. We are not justified in flesh. It is only in spirit that we can count ourselves as beyond all condemnation. The flesh is after the things of flesh and leads to death. But the spirit is concerned with spiritual things and makes for life and peace.
9 All who believe Him are indwelt by God's Spirit. Christ, by His Spirit, is in us. Consequently, our spirit is life, yet our body, being absolutely unresponsive to their presence is death. Thus, while we have but one body, it is the home of three spirits— God's Spirit, Christ's Spirit, and our spirit. As a result the spiritual force at our disposal is far greater than the flesh. Our own spirit is the seat of our new life, because of righteousness. Christ's Spirit gives us communion with Him. God's Spirit gives us power over our dead bodies, just as in the case of Christ, He roused His body from among the dead. He is able to vivify these death-doomed bodies, so that they respond to the dictates of the spirit.
Quote from: CHB on April 27, 2010, 09:05:01 PM
Paul said no where was there a verse that said God tempted anyone, I just presented one that I had forgotten about but it does exist and cannot be ignored.
I hear ya, I would like to get to the bottom of things too, so I get what your saying.
I am not ignoring them, I just know that the CLV in particular doesn't even use the word tempt or any variation of it and the YLT uses it less than some others might.
G1598 ekpeirazo ek-pi-rad'-zo
from G1537 and G3985;
to test thoroughly:--tempt.
G3985 peirazo pi-rad'-zo
from G3984;
to test (objectively), i.e. endeavor, scrutinize, entice, discipline:--assay,
examine, go about, prove, tempt(-er), try.
And then in James 1:13 we have two variations in the ancient greek that are tied to the same strongs definitions.
peirazomai peirazomenos
In the old testament
psalms 78:56 we have the use of "nacah"
H5254 nacah naw-saw'
a primitive root;
to test; by implication, to attempt:--adventure, assay, prove, tempt, try.
In that verse it appears to say "attempt to provoke"
In the case of abraham it seems to be more of a test.
The use of the word gives different implications, but those implications will not go against the character of God. If Gods character is good, then we certainly must discover the things God would not do in order to know what good character does.
I believe the idea that "God does whatever he wants, therefore whatever God does is good" misses the point that if we cannot determine what good things do, then you can make the case for God doing absolutely anything our minds can come up with.
In fact I believe some do that without realizing it about God lying. Some say God can lie, he just chooses not too. That opens the door to be able to contemplate that God could lie at some point. But, God abolutely cannot lie, God does not have a choice.
When we actually learn there are things God absolutely cannot do, we then are on the path to being able to resolve these difficulties without rationalizations that can be applied to any action imaginable.
Quote from: Cardinal on April 23, 2010, 08:35:37 PM
:cloud9: I shared it before, but this is what He showed me concerning our will vs. His will.
I saw myself from above driving, constrained by the element of time. God was above, not constrained by time, but instead seeing the end from the beginning.
So when He saw me make a wrong turn, He placed a roadblock or other diversion in my path to make me turn the way He desired.
To me, constrained by time, it appeared that I was making the choices, but in reality, He was "stacking the deck". :bigGrin: Blessings.....
That does not deal with the issue, it avoids it. The issue is NOT whether one perseives himself as making choices he is not making; the issue is whether God is making us make bad choices, so his mercy and grace can abound.
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
As you can see, scripture tells us a very different story. Sin does NOT control us, yet some Christians are very much captivated in sin. It is NOT God who makes us sin so grace may abound, it is MEN who make bad choices.
Behold, we count them happy which endure. You have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy. James 5:11
QuoteChuck said, God does NOT solitate or intice us to sin.
PERIOD.
God put the serpent and the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and said, "thou shalt not eat". Isn't that a type of temptation?
Put your 2 year old in a room full of toys and tell it not to touch the doll or the car and see what happens.
er um you are comparing God with men friend.
the reason God did what he did was...LEAST WE FORGET...
to SAVE ALL mankinddont we see some who teach God predistined billions to persish, because of the ""serpent seed"" doctrine?
either God did what he did to save ALL mankind or to have billions perish.......
(((( Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! )))
NOW...if you put your 2 yr old in a room and tell them not to touch, who is the one tempting them? you? or are you just the law giver??
this is why paul could say the ""law is good""
bottom line, we are the creation, and God did what he did for a reason that flows from LOVE not ""evil""
thats it for me in this thread, LOVE YOU GUYS!!
peace
chuck
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood
When we actually learn there are things God absolutely cannot do, we then are on the path to being able to resolve these difficulties without rationalizations that can be applied to any action imaginable.
Wow!!! If there are things that God cannot do then how can we even think that we can do anything? Paul, this is GOD we are talking about.
Now, I must challenge you to show me a verse that states that God cannot lie, please.
CHB
Titus 1:2
Quote from: CHB on April 28, 2010, 05:38:59 PMWow!!! If there are things that God cannot do then how can we even think that we can do anything? Paul, this is GOD we are talking about.
Now, I must challenge you to show me a verse that states that God cannot lie, please.
I think you already mentioned one of the things God can't do.
Lie.
Neither can He change or sin. And there are more.
Perhaps, more than meets the eye has been nailed to the Cross.
Quote from: chuckt on April 28, 2010, 01:17:56 PM
QuoteChuck said, God does NOT solitate or intice us to sin.
PERIOD.
God put the serpent and the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and said, "thou shalt not eat". Isn't that a type of temptation?
Put your 2 year old in a room full of toys and tell it not to touch the doll or the car and see what happens.
er um you are comparing God with men friend.
the reason God did what he did was...LEAST WE FORGET...to SAVE ALL mankind
dont we see some who teach God predistined billions to persish, because of the ""serpent seed"" doctrine?
either God did what he did to save ALL mankind or to have billions perish.......
(((( Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! )))
NOW...if you put your 2 yr old in a room and tell them not to touch, who is the one tempting them? you? or are you just the law giver??
this is why paul could say the ""law is good""
bottom line, we are the creation, and God did what he did for a reason that flows from LOVE not ""evil""
thats it for me in this thread, LOVE YOU GUYS!!
peace
chuck
Hi Chuck,
I didn't mean to offend you, am so sorry if I did. :mshock:
I was just using the 2 year old as an example to show how one can be tempted because Adam and Eve were but children, babies are more like it. I understand that all of this was to save the world, also I think it was to teach us good and evil. (Rom. 1:20) For the invisable things OF HIM FROM THE CREATION OF THE WORLD are clearly seen, being UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE, EVEN HIS ETERNAL POWER AND GODHEAD.
CHB
QuoteHi Chuck,
I didn't mean to offend you, am so sorry if I did. :mshock:
I was just using the 2 year old as an example to show how one can be tempted because Adam and Eve were but children, babies are more like it. I understand that all of this was to save the world, also I think it was to teach us good and evil. (Rom. 1:20) For the invisable things OF HIM FROM THE CREATION OF THE WORLD are clearly seen, being UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE, EVEN HIS ETERNAL POWER AND GODHEAD.
CHB
nope you didnt offend at all, i still have carmitis :wink2:
i do agree adam and eve were like children.
i wonder, did they actually even know ""good"" isnt that what this is all about?
reminds me of:
Hbr 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of
full age, [even] those who by
reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
God bless
chuckt
Quote from: Zeek on April 28, 2010, 05:44:45 PM
Titus 1:2
Thanks Zeek. I found another one in (2Tim. 2:13) If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.
I think there is more to this than meets the eye.
(Deut. 23:19) God IS NOT A MAN, that he SHOULD LIE; neither the Son of man, that he should REPENT; hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good.
To me, it just sounds really degrading to God to say there are things he cannot do. If God could lie do you think he would?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on April 27, 2010, 09:05:01 PMPut your 2 year old in a room full of toys and tell it not to touch the doll or the car and see what happens.
.... after you put in a serpent in the same room.
I seems Adam and Eve resisted temptation until the serpent came along.
I'm curious if the serpent asked permission to God just as he did before tempting Job.
Quote from: CHB on April 28, 2010, 06:48:41 PM
To me, it just sounds really degrading to God to say there are things he cannot do. If God could lie do you think he would?
Doesn't even the ability to lie take a way a bit of His holiness?
Here is how the CLNT has this verse.
Titus 1:2 in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who DOES not lie, promises before times eonian,
(2Tim. 2:13) if we are disbelieving, He is remaining faithful -- He cannot disown Himself."
It is hard to imagine that there are things that God CANNOT do, it sounds more reasonable to say he has chosen not to. He just don't, not that he cannot.
How many of you have given these things this much thought before? I know I haven't. Sure I have thought about them but I think it is good to get oposite opinions on things, it makes me start digging more.
CHB
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 28, 2010, 06:49:52 PM
Quote from: CHB on April 27, 2010, 09:05:01 PMPut your 2 year old in a room full of toys and tell it not to touch the doll or the car and see what happens.
.... after you put in a serpent in the same room.
I seems Adam and Eve resisted temptation until the serpent came along.
Have you ever observed a child after telling it not to do something? It will try it's best to do what you told it not to do, even if what it is told not to do hasn't even intrested the child before. It makes it more inticing when told not to do something.
Quote from: WhiteWings
I'm curious if the serpent asked permission to God just as he did before tempting Job.
It doesn't say but couldn't God have stopped the serpent before he tempted Eve?
CHB
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 28, 2010, 06:52:40 PM
Quote from: CHB on April 28, 2010, 06:48:41 PM
To me, it just sounds really degrading to God to say there are things he cannot do. If God could lie do you think he would?
Doesn't even the ability to lie take a way a bit of His holiness?
I don't think so but if he did it would. Not having the ability to lie takes away a bit of his power don't you think?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on April 28, 2010, 07:27:43 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 28, 2010, 06:52:40 PM
Quote from: CHB on April 28, 2010, 06:48:41 PM
To me, it just sounds really degrading to God to say there are things he cannot do. If God could lie do you think he would?
Doesn't even the ability to lie take a way a bit of His holiness?
I don't think so but if he did it would. Not having the ability to lie takes away a bit of his power don't you think?
Dunno. Isn't the ability to lie a little seed of evil?????
It's so difficult to reason the vastness of God's nature when all each of us really have is just a dim glimpse through invisible faith to work with. If Jesus is the Way, the TRUTH and the Light . . .how can he then mislead us? How can he then speak to us lies? And how can he become our darkness? The "Way" can not lead a direction that it is not already. The TRUTH can not speak things which it is not. And beings that a lie is the opposite of truth, then it's impossible for Truth to speak a lie. For what Truth speaks, everything "becomes". I am not a lie. I am everything Christ has pronounced me to be. My head may not comprehend the majority of that, but when in submission, I become transformed by what has been spoken.
And LIGHT can not be anything less than what it is. It is not "a" light among many lights, it is "the" light from which other light births from. So when light comes to me, it births light in me. But when versions of light, interpretations of light, translations of light enter in to me, rather than true light birthing out, only darkness remains.
Can God lie? Could God lie if he chose? It's an oxy-moron question. Truth simply can not lie, if it did or could, then it wouldn't be "truth" in the first place. In the same way, it's impossible for God not to love the unloved. I love because I choose to. God loves not because he chooses, but because he "is" love. For love to manifest, it needed a recipient to receive that love . . that's where we come in. He not only are his creation, but we are his recipients so that he can be who he is. Without a recipient, love can't exist. In order for it to be what it is, it must manifest. Without a recipient, love can not manifest.
My head is starting to spin . . .either that or the room is . . .haven't made my mind up on that one yet.
Quote from: CHB on April 28, 2010, 07:23:30 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 28, 2010, 06:49:52 PM
Quote from: CHB on April 27, 2010, 09:05:01 PMPut your 2 year old in a room full of toys and tell it not to touch the doll or the car and see what happens.
.... after you put in a serpent in the same room.
I seems Adam and Eve resisted temptation until the serpent came along.
Have you ever observed a child after telling it not to do something? It will try it's best to do what you told it not to do, even if what it is told not to do hasn't even intrested the child before. It makes it more inticing when told not to do something.
Sure. I was not disagreeing with your child in a room of toys example. I was just saying it was made extra difficult if there was someone in teh room that would say it's find to touch the doll/car.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings
I'm curious if the serpent asked permission to God just as he did before tempting Job.
It doesn't say but couldn't God have stopped the serpent before he tempted Eve?
Sure. He could also have not put the tree in the garden. But He chose not too.
Just as you know the kid can't resit the doll God knew Eve couldn't resist the tree. And especially if someone showed up and told it's ok to touch the doll/tree.
Plus, Eve didn't have knowledge about good and evil.
God was tempting/testing imo.
For me, I see it as God setting the course for man that would lead to the glroifying of the Son . . .down the road. The tree of knowledge was the gateway that led man into this realm to bring into completion the whole plan of God. To leave them without a means to become natural beings in this natural world would have left the plan incomplete. It's not about man as much as it is about the manifestation of the glory of God.
Quote from: CHB on April 28, 2010, 05:38:59 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood
When we actually learn there are things God absolutely cannot do, we then are on the path to being able to resolve these difficulties without rationalizations that can be applied to any action imaginable.
Wow!!! If there are things that God cannot do then how can we even think that we can do anything?
You may feel that way. But scripture explains the issue. Whatever God cannot do can be perceived as weakness or stupidity.
1C 1:25 for the stupidity of God is wiser than humanmen, and the weakness of God is stronger than humanmen.
QuotePaul, this is GOD we are talking about.
And God is great even being unable to lie isn't he?
Quote
Now, I must challenge you to show me a verse that states that God cannot lie, please.
Titus 1:2
Hb 6:18 that throughby two immutable matters, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have a strong consolation, who are fleeing for refuge to lay hold of the expectation lying before us,
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 28, 2010, 07:55:09 PMAnd God is great even being unable to lie isn't he?
Toward the light side Father is unlimited. All mentioned limitations are on the dark side.
Otherwise He would be Darth Vader :winkgrin:
Quote from: Nathan on April 28, 2010, 07:36:50 PM
My head is starting to spin . . .either that or the room is . . .haven't made my mind up on that one yet.
" I will shake the heavens and the earth."
QuoteWhen we actually learn there are things God absolutely cannot do, we then are on the path to being able to resolve these difficulties without rationalizations that can be applied to any action imaginable.
Wow!!! If there are things that God cannot do then how can we even think that we can do anything? Paul, this is GOD we are talking about.
Now, I must challenge you to show me a verse that states that God cannot lie, please.
CHB
I don't think that it's God doesn't have the ability to lie, but it's that He will not lie. God can deny Himself but He won't do it.
It's not that there is anything impossible for God, instead it's there are some things God refuses to do.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 28, 2010, 08:01:06 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 28, 2010, 07:55:09 PMAnd God is great even being unable to lie isn't he?
Toward the light side Father is unlimited. All mentioned limitations are on the dark side.
Otherwise He would be Darth Vader :winkgrin:
Perhaps.... I tend to see it like this. Gods inability to lie is one of the greater things in existence, we absolutely can trust that he will not.
We do not have to listen to people say "God can lie, he just chooses not to" because then one could argue that God at some point could choose to lie. If someone says that is not true, then what point is there to make the case to say that it is possible for God to lie?
If it is possible, then we cannot actually trust that he will not.
QuoteWe do not have to listen to people say "God can lie, he just chooses not to" because then one could argue that God at some point could choose to lie. If someone says that is not true, then what point is there to make the case to say that it is possible for God to lie?
Trust is about risk. To open yourself up and be vulnerable is a risk. To leave my well being in the hands of another is a risk. But based on the character of God is what we place trust with.
If you watch a sports game and record it, knowing the final score, then watch it again with friends and claim you trust one team to win, that's not trust.
When there is no risk there is no trust there is no need for trust.
All realationships grow in trust (faith), based on experiences with that person. On an earthly level we are always suspect with our relationship, with God ourselves still have a sense of fear in trusting Him also...but as we experience His relationship we learn we can absolutley trust Him. Yes, we as human only know fear in relationship, but with Him we learn Trust.
Quote from: Dallas on April 28, 2010, 08:36:32 PM
QuoteWe do not have to listen to people say "God can lie, he just chooses not to" because then one could argue that God at some point could choose to lie. If someone says that is not true, then what point is there to make the case to say that it is possible for God to lie?
Trust is about risk. To open yourself up and be vulnerable is a risk. To leave my well being in the hands of another is a risk. But based on the character of God is what we place trust with.
If you watch a sports game and record it, knowing the final score, then watch it again with friends and claim you trust one team to win, that's not trust.
When there is no risk there is no trust there is no need for trust.
All realationships grow in trust (faith), based on experiences with that person. On an earthly level we are always suspect with our relationship, with God ourselves still have a sense of fear in trusting Him also...but as we experience His relationship we learn we can absolutley trust Him. Yes, we as human only know fear in relationship, but with Him we learn Trust.
Well, one thing is for sure, when scripture indicates that it is impossible for God to lie, I have no reason to entertain that he can.
I would say perhaps you are correct since God cannot lie and men try very hard to say that he can. I trust that it is impossible for God to lie in the face of others trying to convince me otherwise.
From that standpoint, there is a percieved risk because obviously some think it is dangerous that I dare say there is something God cannot do. I am learning to trust in that regaurd.
:cloud9: I don't think He can lie, but He did send a lying spirit to be in the mouth of the prophet. Blessings....
QuoteWell, one thing is for sure, when scripture indicates that it is impossible for God to lie, I have no reason to entertain that he can.
I would say perhaps you are correct since God cannot lie and men try very hard to say that he can. I trust that it is impossible for God to lie in the face of others trying to convince me otherwise.
From that standpoint, there is a percieved risk because obviously some think it is dangerous that I dare say there is something God cannot do. I am learning to trust in that regaurd.
Scripture also says that God has feathers while some say that God is invisible, some say that Moses saw the backside of God while Jesus say none have seen Him. Understanding what the writer was saying and implying is what is important to understanding reason to trust, otherwise it's a new law.
I am protected by this scripture therefore I can trust God. Trust must be established through experience, since we are limited in our understanding, our trust can not be based on knowledge, but must be definatley supported by it.
Quote from: Dallas on April 28, 2010, 08:54:58 PM
QuoteWell, one thing is for sure, when scripture indicates that it is impossible for God to lie, I have no reason to entertain that he can.
I would say perhaps you are correct since God cannot lie and men try very hard to say that he can. I trust that it is impossible for God to lie in the face of others trying to convince me otherwise.
From that standpoint, there is a percieved risk because obviously some think it is dangerous that I dare say there is something God cannot do. I am learning to trust in that regaurd.
Scripture also says that God has feathers while some say that God is invisible, some say that Moses saw the backside of God while Jesus say none have seen Him. Understanding what the writer was saying and implying is what is important to understanding reason to trust, otherwise it's a new law.
I am protected by this scripture therefore I can trust God. Trust must be established through experience, since we are limited in our understanding, our trust can not be based on knowledge, but must be definatley supported by it.
I understand all of that. However, you are pointing out contrasts in scripture.
What is the contrast to the verse that says it is impossible for God to lie?
QuoteI understand all of that. However, you are pointing out contrasts in scripture.
What is the contrast to the verse that says it is impossible for God to lie?
My point wasn't to contrast scripture, but was to emphasize that our trust shouldn't be built upon, because scripture says this or that.
So are you saying that if scripture didn't say that you couldn;t trust God? Using a scripture as protection to believe isn't trust. That's what I was trying to point out.
However, The Law commanded was You shall not Lie, yet when Isreal sent spies to search out a country it became known to the opposing nation. A house took in the Hebrew spies, when the national army came door to door looking for them(spies) the house owners lied and said they didn't know them. Later the spies escaped saying God would reward them for their help. Sure enough when Israel came through and destroyed the nation, only the Liars house was left standing.
God who said you shall not lie, rewarded these anit-nationalist for lying.
willieH: Hi sister C... :hithere:
Quote from: CHB on April 27, 2010, 09:05:01 PMHi All,
Never do I ever want to argue, pester, annoy, or cause any kind of disturbance. I just want to get to the bottom of things just like everyone else. I only present what God has shown me and where I am at in my understanding. I don't expect everyone to agree with me on anything. I am learning and the more I learn the more I realize I don't know much of anything. I have learned a lot from everyone of you on this forum. What do we have that wasn't given to us anyway. None of us has anything to boast about, all we have is something to discuss and learn about. Don't ever feel like I want to argue and don't ever feel intimidated by what I say. If you ever get angry or upset with me feel free to tell about it.
Amen Charlotte! [IMO] You are much farther along in your understandings than you give yourself credit sis. :thumbsup:
By the display of humility in this post... you are (at least by me), commended for making this statement! :friendstu:
Quote from: CHB on April 27, 2010, 09:05:01 PMPaul said, God didn't tempt man, I said if God didn't tempt man directly he did indirectly. What I mean is God gave that job to Satan or through other means.
Paul said no where was there a verse that said God tempted anyone, I just presented one that I had forgotten about but it does exist and cannot be ignored.
Chuck said, God does NOT solitate or intice us to sin.
PERIOD.
God put the serpent and the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and said, "thou shalt not eat". Isn't that a type of temptation?
Put your 2 year old in a room full of toys and tell it not to touch the doll or the car and see what happens.
CHB
I agree with you...
As I see it, ...GOD is ultimately RESPONSIBLE for
EVERYTHING within His Creation, for "CREATION" is
HIS BUSINESS, and which is WHY, ...ALL things SHALL BE in time [already ARE in eternity] RECONCILED unto Him!
GOD Himself, does not DIRECTLY "tempt" any man... but
HE created ALL the MEN & WOMEN which in fact use the things within HIS Creation, to "tempt" ALL the other MEN & WOMEN, within their course... :dontknow:
Your "2 year old" scenario" illustration, is a great object lesson...
God put us (2yr olds) and the "toys" (evil) in the room (garden/world), and then told us (adam & eve) not to access the toys... :dontknow:
So though HE is not doing it DIRECTLY... HE is the ROOT from which ALL things EMERGE --
John 1:3 -- and ALL THINGS which OCCUR are KNOWN by Him, before they OCCUR... and have been DECLARED BY HIM, to OCCUR --
Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 4:17Anything HE DECLARES (with His
WORD -- said "declarations", are made with "words"), shall COME TO PASS...
This is the "living" KNOWLEDGE of GOOD & EVIL being manifest... and EMERGENT from the Heart of
YHVH God...
Though ultimately only GOOD shall be manifest within the ETERNAL realm... in the TEMPORAL realm of time, it is HIS WILL that EVIL be manifest... and as well, ...is WHY, as EVIL in its innumerable and varying negativity, is MANIFEST in all its UGLINESS and HORROR --- He stands by, and does not PREVENT it from occuring even though He is well able to PREVENT any and ALL of it.
:Peace: sis...
...willieH :cloud9:
willieH: Hi-D-ho! :cloud9:
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 28, 2010, 06:15:53 PM
Quote from: CHB on April 28, 2010, 05:38:59 PMWow!!! If there are things that God cannot do then how can we even think that we can do anything? Paul, this is GOD we are talking about.
Now, I must challenge you to show me a verse that states that God cannot lie, please.
I think you already mentioned one of the things God can't do.
Lie.
Neither can He change or sin. And there are more.
GOD "cannot" do them, because He
WILL NOT... :dontknow:
NOTHING is "IMPOSSIBLE" with God... :happygrin:
Any "thing" we might find in the Scripture which states that GOD "cannot" do, ...is only "IMPOSSIBLE" for GOD because He
WILL NOT do these... and HE CHANGES NOT... Because He is PERFECT [complete] and something PERFECT [complete] needs no additions or subtractions.
That which is COMPLETE, does not CHANGE... that which is COMPLETE does not LIE... that which is COMPLETE does not SIN, ...etc.
...willieH :cloud9:
Hey Willie!! That's exactly how I see it as well ... but for some reason, when I write it out, it never comes out as good as when you do it!!
Amen, WillieH
Jesus! The complete and perfect man.
Quote from: Dallas on April 28, 2010, 09:14:34 PM
QuoteI understand all of that. However, you are pointing out contrasts in scripture.
What is the contrast to the verse that says it is impossible for God to lie?
My point wasn't to contrast scripture, but was to emphasize that our trust shouldn't be built upon, because scripture says this or that.
So are you saying that if scripture didn't say that you couldn;t trust God? Using a scripture as protection to believe isn't trust. That's what I was trying to point out.
However, The Law commanded was You shall not Lie, yet when Isreal sent spies to search out a country it became known to the opposing nation. A house took in the Hebrew spies, when the national army came door to door looking for them(spies) the house owners lied and said they didn't know them. Later the spies escaped saying God would reward them for their help. Sure enough when Israel came through and destroyed the nation, only the Liars house was left standing.
God who said you shall not lie, rewarded these anit-nationalist for lying.
I think this would be a great subject for another topic, not trying to deflect, just was thinking that indeed this is a great point to consider in terms of God is unable to lie, but scripture accounts for God sending a lying spirit.
To your question about trusting God if scripture didn't say it. True, scripture in and of itself can be made to say anything if we stand on a declaration that scripture says it, so that's final. What scripture says is often an assertion of what we believe it means.
I would say that from any perspective, a person who lies cannot be trusted. Now, lets say I am intending to do harm to someone, who can I trust? Now lets say I intend to do good to someone, who can I trust? From either perspective I cannot trust man, because man lies.
If I am asking someone a question, even if it is for the purpose of doing harm, I still cannot necessarily trust the answer from someone I am asking.
If I am supposed to trust God, then lying is not something for me to consider as a possibility in any context or based on any book.
To some who think saying God cannot do something as a bad thing I only consider that if it is possible that God can lie, then there is the possibility that he will, otherwise saying he can is a moot issue. To say he won't is irrelevant if it absolutely can never happen.
I see that a fact that God cannot lie is absolute in perfection and not limiting, but glorious that we are to one day be so pure that such a thing will not be possible.
QuoteTo your question about trusting God if scripture didn't say it. True, scripture in and of itself can be made to say anything if we stand on a declaration that scripture says it, so that's final. What scripture says is often an assertion of what we believe it means.
That's how come experience is a reality as apposed to straight doctrine. Dooctrine changes, 99% of us here went through a doctrine change to be here. To rely on that simply isn't stable enough, but knowing that God has done good to me through my life remains, no matter what doctrine I believe and that foundation causes trust.
QuoteI would say that from any perspective, a person who lies cannot be trusted. Now, lets say I am intending to do harm to someone, who can I trust? Now lets say I intend to do good to someone, who can I trust? From either perspective I cannot trust man, because man lies.
If I am asking someone a question, even if it is for the purpose of doing harm, I still cannot necessarily trust the answer from someone I am asking.
This is howcome I say that we, as man, have no foundation in which to freely trust someone. Even through experience with other "mankind" we are betrayed. That's howcome people need to have laws like "God can not lie" because it gives them security to trust. What I am saying is, that isn't really trust, but through getting to know Him and the things He personally does will bring trust.
QuoteIf I am supposed to trust God, then lying is not something for me to consider as a possibility in any context or based on any book.
Trust shouldn't be given to anyone based on anything but the character of that person, and that character must be learned through experience, otherwise freely trusting people who haven't proven themselves cause you to be betrayed. I wouldn;t expect anyone to trust God except based on what He has done with them, to ask someone to trust God just because someting or someone says to is foolish.
QuoteTo some who think saying God cannot do something as a bad thing I only consider that if it is possible that God can lie, then there is the possibility that he will, otherwise saying he can is a moot issue. To say he won't is irrelevant if it absolutely can never happen.
I believe that God could lie, it is in His ability to mislead and form deception. He is not apart from the concept for He created the devil a liar from the beginning, (John 8:44) but just because He is familiar with the concept and ability doesn't mean that it is within His character to do so. For did Jesus lie? It was in His ability as being 100% man, He just didn't. God has never decieved me, and I go on trusting Him that He won't.
Now I point out, lying is a behaviour. By what means do we now determine whether lying is bad or not? If a mobster runs by and hides right by you with a gun drawn and says don't tell them where I am or I will kill you, then two men come up and say where did he go, and you lie and say I don;t know.... is that lying a bad thing or not?
It's subjective, it's judging. It's through law we judge that, so let me ask you, to what Law do you hold God accountable to, for He is niether under or subjected to any law?
Quote from: Dallas on April 28, 2010, 08:05:49 PM
QuoteWhen we actually learn there are things God absolutely cannot do, we then are on the path to being able to resolve these difficulties without rationalizations that can be applied to any action imaginable.
Wow!!! If there are things that God cannot do then how can we even think that we can do anything? Paul, this is GOD we are talking about.
Now, I must challenge you to show me a verse that states that God cannot lie, please.
CHB
I don't think that it's God doesn't have the ability to lie, but it's that He will not lie. God can deny Himself but He won't do it.
It's not that there is anything impossible for God, instead it's there are some things God refuses to do.
Yes, this is the way I see it also Dallas. God does not do, or will not do certain things, not that he cannot do them.
CHB
Quote from: willieH on April 28, 2010, 09:40:11 PM
willieH: Hi sister C... :hithere:
Quote from: CHB on April 27, 2010, 09:05:01 PMHi All,
Never do I ever want to argue, pester, annoy, or cause any kind of disturbance. I just want to get to the bottom of things just like everyone else. I only present what God has shown me and where I am at in my understanding. I don't expect everyone to agree with me on anything. I am learning and the more I learn the more I realize I don't know much of anything. I have learned a lot from everyone of you on this forum. What do we have that wasn't given to us anyway. None of us has anything to boast about, all we have is something to discuss and learn about. Don't ever feel like I want to argue and don't ever feel intimidated by what I say. If you ever get angry or upset with me feel free to tell about it.
Amen Charlotte! [IMO] You are much farther along in your understandings than you give yourself credit sis. :thumbsup:
By the display of humility in this post... you are (at least by me), commended for making this statement! :friendstu:
Quote from: CHB on April 27, 2010, 09:05:01 PMPaul said, God didn't tempt man, I said if God didn't tempt man directly he did indirectly. What I mean is God gave that job to Satan or through other means.
Paul said no where was there a verse that said God tempted anyone, I just presented one that I had forgotten about but it does exist and cannot be ignored.
Chuck said, God does NOT solitate or intice us to sin.
PERIOD.
God put the serpent and the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and said, "thou shalt not eat". Isn't that a type of temptation?
Put your 2 year old in a room full of toys and tell it not to touch the doll or the car and see what happens.
CHB
I agree with you...
As I see it, ...GOD is ultimately RESPONSIBLE for EVERYTHING within His Creation, for "CREATION" is HIS BUSINESS, and which is WHY, ...ALL things SHALL BE in time [already ARE in eternity] RECONCILED unto Him!
GOD Himself, does not DIRECTLY "tempt" any man... but HE created ALL the MEN & WOMEN which in fact use the things within HIS Creation, to "tempt" ALL the other MEN & WOMEN, within their course... :dontknow:
Your "2 year old" scenario" illustration, is a great object lesson...
God put us (2yr olds) and the "toys" (evil) in the room (garden/world), and then told us (adam & eve) not to access the toys... :dontknow:
So though HE is not doing it DIRECTLY... HE is the ROOT from which ALL things EMERGE -- John 1:3 -- and ALL THINGS which OCCUR are KNOWN by Him, before they OCCUR... and have been DECLARED BY HIM, to OCCUR -- Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 4:17
Anything HE DECLARES (with His WORD -- said "declarations", are made with "words"), shall COME TO PASS...
This is the "living" KNOWLEDGE of GOOD & EVIL being manifest... and EMERGENT from the Heart of YHVH God...
Though ultimately only GOOD shall be manifest within the ETERNAL realm... in the TEMPORAL realm of time, it is HIS WILL that EVIL be manifest... and as well, ...is WHY, as EVIL in its innumerable and varying negativity, is MANIFEST in all its UGLINESS and HORROR --- He stands by, and does not PREVENT it from occuring even though He is well able to PREVENT any and ALL of it.
:Peace: sis...
...willieH :cloud9:
Thank you willie, I agree with what Nathan said about you explaining this much better than I can. I agree with you that nothing is impossible with God.
(Luke 1:37) For with God nothing is impossible.
CHB
:cloud9: And I make 3 in agreement Willie.......you bring it out flawlessly. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Dallas on April 29, 2010, 01:20:06 AM
It's subjective, it's judging. It's through law we judge that, so let me ask you, to what Law do you hold God accountable to, for He is niether under or subjected to any law?
I've never thought about holding a God accountable for anything actually. I seek to know whats really true, even if truth is that there is no God in the first place. My life has only changed for the better as I escape the clutches of controlling people, and allow myself to pursue and contemplate the vastness of existance without fear and guilt.
My life never got better by praying more, tithing more, reading the bible more, praying the sinners prayer, saying I believe or any other religious ritual.
Beyond that, I can only hope what I often believe and hope for is true and stand by what works.
QuoteI've never thought about holding a God accountable for anything actually. I seek to know whats really true, even if truth is that there is no God in the first place. My life has only changed for the better as I escape the clutches of controlling people, and allow myself to pursue and contemplate the vastness of existance without fear and guilt.
My life never got better by praying more, tithing more, reading the bible more, praying the sinners prayer, saying I believe or any other religious ritual. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Beyond that, I can only hope what I often believe and hope for is true and stand by what works.
:thumbsup:
There really is only one thing we can do...what we think is right. Whatever otherwise happens, happens. But the freedom I have recieved through what I believe has changed my life...
Galatians 5:1 "For it is freedom that Christ has set you free"
As I see it..... Just for consideration (the things we see through a glass darkly look one way to one person but may appear as something different to another)
Imagine there are two spheres (for the purpose of illustration only-there are actually numerous spheres within spheres transitioning into infinity, you coud call them heavens).
One sphere is immense(even infinite). The other sphere, created within the larger sphere, is small(the finite kosmos). God created the small , and within it He established certain finite principles(the foundations of the world).
He has placed us in the smaller sphere- subject to those principles.
God speaks a language to man within the small sphere based on the parameters of that kosmos. That language is the language of stewardship. God is training us for life in the larger sphere(aionian zoe)- into which we will graduate when death is swallowed up by immortality.
God has given us glimpses into the larger sphere (we see though a glass darkly, the higher realms- the aions and kosmos to come- the new heavens and the new earth,etc). These glimpses are the language of His allness. We need both languages> they can be integrated, they do not need be in opposition like the snake feeding on his tail. They are two sides of a coin called the whole counsel of God.
God knows all that will occur and has caused all that will take place to the extent that He created both the spheres and He spoke forth the parameters and initial causality of everything.
God, by virtue of omniscience has already seen all that will ever occur....but this is why the word "mystery" is used so frequently- we cannot fully fathom His view until we graduate(then we shall know as we are known). Enoch and a few others graduated by walking so well in the stewardship of the mystery, in fellowship with God ("He walked with God and was not, because God took him"). They were allowed to ascend directly.
I believe God has limited Himself in a measure(from our point of view within the small sphere), as it is written, we are predestined "according to the foreknowledge of God". Our stewardship is to enter His rest- the finished work. To discern the pathways that lead to "aionian zoe"(life in the larger sphere) and embrace them- beginning with faith in the work of the cross of Christ. Joining Him in "willing death"(the triumph of life is letting go) sets us free from "forced death"(kolasis- restraint, pruning). "The one who loses their life for My sake and the kingdom sake will find it unto aionian zoe." "The one who seeks to save their life will lose it."
Imagine the garden of Eden as a microcosm of the kosmos, at the same time a microcosm of a body of people, as well as a microcosm of an individual life. We are always choosing whether to eat from the tree of life, or from the tree of knowledge. The snake always entices us to chase our tail in "knowing". If knowledge(mind soul) is ascendant over life(spirit) we are cast out of the "garden"(place of fellowship with God in aionian zoe). We are like the snake, eating his own tail. The consequences are division, carnality, selfish ambition, bitter jealousy, etc. God has so set the parameters of "death", that its discomforts are always leading us back to life. You could call that "fire", or "conviction", or "scourging", or "pruning", or "kolasis".
If we want to transcend the parameters of the smaller circle we do so "by grace through faith" within the stewardship of the mystery- beginning with the elementary principles of the oracles of God. When we are "hearing with faith"- the exhortations to life(such as "pray in the spirit" or "in everything give thanks") no longer seem like the law. The functions of the spiritual life are no longer burdensome, or used to "measure" ourselves or others. They become the instructions that wise sons receive from their fathers along the way as they grow into "the glorious liberty of the sons of God" within "the law of the Spirit Of Life In Christ Jesus". They become the water of life and the good soil and the warm sunlight.
Those who graduate into sonship (the crown of life for those who remain faithful in believing and walking in love) avoid "aionian kolasis"- "the hour of trial that will come upon all those who dwell on the earth"- because they have already received within themselves, willingly, the sentence of death in union with Jesus, who is leading many sons to glory. In exchange they receive "aionian zoe". If we suffer with Him we will also reign with Him. We will reign through love in the reconciliation, restitution of all things in the ages to come, until He abolishes all rule power and authority, and God is all in all.
This was just a simplified view of one persons perspective. Glean or purge as you will.
Ephesians 2:10;
For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.
I'm a little late in the conversation, but here's my :2c:...
I was once posed with this question and it made me believe that there is no way that I can change the will of God in any aspect, and in fact at every given time I am right where God wants and needs me to be to be able to grow closer to Him and into His fullness...
Who are we, as creations of God, to be able to go against His will for the world He created, to do our own will?
This statement doesn't make sense when even David sings to God that the days of our lives were already set out before we were born...
Psalm 139:16Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.
QuoteI was once posed with this question and it made me believe that there is no way that I can change the will of God in any aspect, and in fact at every given time I am right where God wants and needs me to be to be able to grow closer to Him and into His fullness...
Who are we, as creations of God, to be able to go against His will for the world He created, to do our own will?
This is why it's important to understand the promises of God. In Genesis 17 when God explains the everlasting covenant He tells us that we will, "Walk before Him," this is telling us that we are included into the things of God, what He is doing and that we can be an active participant. That's howcome one chapter later God converses with Abraham about what should happen to Sodom/Gomorah.
Chapter 17 God says to Abaham, as far as God is concearned the covenant was with Abraham already and in Chapter 18 God and Abaham where walking in it together.
As God's children, we talk with and change His will. It is a real relationship. Just as my daughter can change my mind, I talk and walk with Him just as Abraham.
Dallas,
To what degree can I change God's will?
Seriously, can I get that boat and new car?
Can I ask for peace on earth, immediately?
With what wisdom could I rule the universe without
totally fouling things up?
To what degree can I change God's will?
Thanks,
dave.
QuoteDallas,
To what degree can I change God's will?
Seriously, can I get that boat and new car?
Can I ask for peace on earth, immediately?
With what wisdom could I rule the universe without
totally fouling things up?
To what degree can I change God's will?
Thanks,
dave.
Well....if you are walking with Him and living with Him and having conversation with Him....ask Him.
Well, if I can change His mind so readily,
I suppose I'll just TELL Him.
QuoteWell, if I can change His mind so readily,
I suppose I'll just TELL Him.
Good luck with that. :thumbsup:
Yeah, thanks, I'll need it.
Quote from: willieH on April 20, 2010, 04:14:18 AM
willieH: Hi James... :cloud9:
Great answer! :laughhand:
Quote from: jabcat on April 20, 2010, 04:11:16 AM
Re: The WILL of GOD... Can it be "thwarted" by men?
I'll give'em some translations.
Ekegusii (Kenya) Aa
Emakhua (Africa) Kha-
Emdimbich (California USA) Gadu
Enga (Papua New Guinea) Daá
English (Britain, Australia, America) No
English (America) [informal] Nope
English (America) [informal] Uh-uh
English [Strine dialect] (Australia) Nut
English [Texan] (Texas United States) Naw
English [Michigan slang] (Michigan USA) Nah
English [Michigan slang] (Michigan USA) No way
English [Middle English] (old Britain) Na
English [old English] (older Britain) Nese
[Eskimo, see Inuktitut and Inuttut]
Esperanto (international use) Ne
Esselen [Henshaw] (California USA) Me'-tea
Esselen [Henshaw] (California USA) A'na
Esselen [La Perouse] (California USA) Maal
Estonian (Estonia) Ei
Estonian (Saaremaa Estonia) Ep
Estonian (Saaremaa Estonia) Es
Estonian (Viru-Nigula Estonia) Eiba
Estonian (Võrumaa Estonia) Eih
Estonian (Võrumaa Estonia) Õih
Etruscan (old Europe) Ein
Eudeve (Mexico) Quéta
Even (Russia) Aan
Even (Russia) Aach
Evenki (Russia) Aachin
Ewondo (Cameroun) Koa
And that's just the E's.
:laughing7:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: