Quote
You wish to say that hell is not eternal largely due to God's love in your own thoughts yet in this same theory God is very arbitrarily sending people into torment for an unknown period of time for no other reason then He cares to rather then merely save them in advance as He does for others. While the other wording tries it's hardest to sound better then a judicial reasoning I can't say that it actually accomplishes its task at all but merely masks it. Rehabilitation would presume that the person can change which we agree they can not until or unless God chooses to do so and therefore they will only be in hell until God is pleased to let them out/change them right? I fail to see the loving portion of this theory while again it sounds better in one respect that is only due to masking the intention behind it on God's part.
In the end you must say that God wants there to be a hell, which will in fact be inhabited for a period of time with most people in it do you not?
...Im not even sure exactly what this guy is talking about anymore lol. I guess hes trying to turn the tables on me and say that my view is less moral than his calvinist one. I guess a God saving a random few while the leaving rest get to be in a everlasting torture chamber is much more loving, than God temporarily chastising people to eventually save all. Oh yes, that makes PERFECT sense! Its a bunch of crap and yet I dont even know how to word a response to it. I tried explaining that its only because he wont look at afterlife punishment as anything else but retributive and out of hate...but hes still on the same train of crap.
Assuming I understand him correctly I think he made a very good point.
Noone come to the Lord unless He draws them.
So if you are in hell for 20 days it means God started drawing after 20 days.
So it was God's choice to have (the vast majority) people in hell.
So I think he is right. Assuming he's not speaking of the lava pit type of hell.
God in His own words declared His choice.....Jacob I have
loved yet Esau I have hated. Yet, people have misunderstood
what He is declaring. In that, Old Adam/unregenerate man is
rejected and New creature in Christ is chosen of Him.And these
two images all men bear
We have all been lowered/subjected into vanity,not of our own
will, but by Him. To me, this realm/lowered state is the vanity
for we can do nothing of ourselves to remedy this condition, but
it lies in Him to deliver His creation into the glorious freedom of
the Sons of God. Doing this He declares His ultimate authority,
and we fully recognize that He himself forms us.
It is His will that all His sons and daughters expierence this
exercise in futility, and He works all to the good,eternally.
For we are perfected through suffering..and evil is what
provides the suffering. Through suffering we develope mercy
and compassion/which is a fruit of the Holy spirit and character
of Love.And He requires all the fruit.
Also, the spirit of self pride and boasting is removed from His
children,eternally through this 'education' experience.
Hell is this realm, it is the corruption were sown in.
It is here we are tormented with thoughts of rejection/death
plagues and all evil due to lies and deceptions. The prince of
this world is judged,and it's works are declared evil.
The Adam of the dust of the earth will return unto the earth
[dissolve] but the spirit of Christ the new man/creature will
return unto God
I personally beleive that ALL MEN will have a first resurrection
for all men are FIRSTBORN IN HEAVEN. If not while in this
world then when their spirit returns unto Father.
what is the secound death..it is the resurrection of the
righteous and wicked[both of which dwell in our corruptible flesh
from eating of the TOKOGAE]. This the seperating of the sheep
from Goats in our flesh[sheep righteous acts done by spirit of
God,goats wicked acts done from evil motive/man of sin]
Jesus commands such thing to depart from us[do away with the
Glory of His coming] In this manner we are bone of His bone
and flesh of His flesh/clothed with immortality.[He appears to
us 'seperate' from sin[in our flesh]
I beleive this happens at our physical death, or when we are
changed in a twinkling at the last trump.
I do not beleive any man is tormented after death, I simply
beleive that the chaff is removed from them[that all things that
cause sin and stumbling and error are removed from them]
who is harmed of the secound death? No wheat, just tares,
goats etc..going into non-existence.Refinement by His spirit of
judgement...what is the death of death but LIFE?
I see the LOF as the death of death...and only death is
harmed..and sin which brings the sting of death is consumed
or swallowed up,with the breath of His coming.
Since it is under His jurisdiction as to who/where/what and in
which way all mankind will serve His purpose. No-one can be
any other way than which way He forms them. For we do not
form ourselves but are the work of His hands
The evil works of Sodom and Gomorrah were burned up
by fire..yet we know He speaks of restoration, and also that
we would have been just like Sodom and Gomarrah;[Isaaih
16;53] if He had
not left us a seed[of promise] even Christ and the promised
spirit/token of our deliverance .
A feild overcome by tares and thorns is given unto the fire
when Christ become sin for us on the cross,a crown of thorns
was placed upon His head, symbolizing the judgement of the
first Adam,the body of the man of sin, that the land would bring
forth thorns weeds[con-science=with knowledge, Know[intimate
union/oneness] from TOKOGAE expierence . The same way with
the brazen serpent lifted up in the wilderness, those that had
been bitten have expiereced the judgement of God[fiery
serpents] But looking at it would live.Through the promised seed
p.s. our life in this corruptible/sin realm is HELL . And it is by
the will of God we expierence it. As to whether this is unloving
I do not judge Him for it. For it is for our perfection.
For if it pleases God that man's suffering brings forth the will
of God and the perfection of all His children, who are we?
Philipians 2;6 who being in very nature God, did not consider
equality with God something to be grasped, BUT MADE
HIMSELF NOTHING, TAKING THE VERY NATURE OF A SERVANT,
BEING MADE IN HUMAN LIKENESS. AND BEING FOUND IN
APPEARANCE AS A MAN,HE HUMBLED HIMSELF AND BECAME
TO DEATH-.
See, there was a difference between Him and us..we come
unwillingly to this[dragged actually] and dragged back we also
go. Not so for Him
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on January 03, 2010, 09:49:06 AM
Quote
You wish to say that hell is not eternal largely due to God's love in your own thoughts yet in this same theory God is very arbitrarily sending people into torment for an unknown period of time for no other reason then He cares to rather then merely save them in advance as He does for others. While the other wording tries it's hardest to sound better then a judicial reasoning I can't say that it actually accomplishes its task at all but merely masks it. Rehabilitation would presume that the person can change which we agree they can not until or unless God chooses to do so and therefore they will only be in hell until God is pleased to let them out/change them right? I fail to see the loving portion of this theory while again it sounds better in one respect that is only due to masking the intention behind it on God's part.
In the end you must say that God wants there to be a hell, which will in fact be inhabited for a period of time with most people in it do you not?
...Im not even sure exactly what this guy is talking about anymore lol. I guess hes trying to turn the tables on me and say that my view is less moral than his calvinist one. I guess a God saving a random few while the leaving rest get to be in a everlasting torture chamber is much more loving, than God temporarily chastising people to eventually save all. Oh yes, that makes PERFECT sense! Its a bunch of crap and yet I dont even know how to word a response to it. I tried explaining that its only because he wont look at afterlife punishment as anything else but retributive and out of hate...but hes still on the same train of crap.
It's an attempt to obscure the difference between a temporary condition and being somewhere for all eternity without hope since he has probably ran out of reasonable refutations.
The fact remains that even Eternal Hell Christians cannot agree on how bad Hell will be. They range from a literal burning pit in the center of the earth to just a deep sadness and how bad you are on earth can dictate how bad it is for you in hell for all eternity.
It also is a fact that believers that God will reconcile all things also have a disagreement on what this temporary state after death may consist of.
But seriously, if someone can't put together the pieces to understand there is a difference between a temporary state of needing correction through suffering the consequences of our actions and a banishment to a place forever without hope, then I'd be bold enough to declare him the loser of the debate to his face. ;)
I wonder if our very unwillingness to be subjected into this
temporal'hell' death state[servitude] isn't what was the impetus
for the temptation in the garden...the choice to be like God and
not die[when He sent us down to die[expierence corruption]
'unless a seed of grain fall to the earth and die..it can not
bear fruit unto heaven'
Our very unwillingness to serve is a rebellion against His
will,of sorts
Psalms 110;3
Thy people SHALL BE WILLING in the day of thy power
in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning
thou hast the dew of thy youth.
:cloud9: Wow, that really spoke volumes to me, Sheila. That's exactly what the temptation was. Think about it. The adversary was pure rebellion in nature, and that nature always expresses itself in trying to present any solution it can think of that interferes with our dying to self on some level. So he is the adversarial nature that opposes our dying to self in essence.
He spoke thru Peter when Jesus revealed the manner in which He should DIE. Everyone has a tendency to look at that as only a natural physical death, but the essence of it was His being willing to die to the 'self' He had in order to conform to the Father's will for Him.
When we are lowered into this bondage of vanity and corruption, it is because iniquity was found in us (Adam/Lucifer) which is WHY we were unwillingly to be lowered in the first place. I'm starting to get a glimmer of something else here. Need to meditate on it. Thanks for your post. Blessings....
:thumbsup:
this thread has already confused me...lol
:dontknow: oops I posted this reply on wrong board so it was in wrong discussion thread. I have deleted post as it was confusing and had no meaning on this thread, the reply was meant fo an entirely differant discussion board &thread.
Fire Walker
Sheila,
Excellent thread so far. I would have to disagree with one of your points though.
You said...
QuoteI do not beleive any man is tormented after death, I simply
beleive that the chaff is removed from them[that all things that
cause sin and stumbling and error are removed from them]
I believe the chaff is removed as well but my opinion is that it IS quite painful.
I've read many, many NDE's and one common thing that comes up over and over is something called the life review. People are shown their lives and interactions with others and many people have said they would have preferred physical pain over what they were seeing. They were SO ashamed over how they mistreated others.
So, I do think there is suffering for many after they die but it is needed and corrective.
I appreciate your post...but I am putting faith in this
Joel 2;26 You will have plenty to eat,until you are full, and
you will praise the name of the Lord your God,who has worked
wonders for you....NEVER AGAIN WILL MY PEOPLE BE SHAMED.
I beleive the restoration will accomplish this.....the chaff
[old man of sin] is our shame or body of humiliation, the wheat
new creature in Christ is man in the Glory of the only begotton
son of God.
Isaaih 25;6-9 On this mountain the Lord will prepare a
feast of rich dishes for all people, a banquet of aged wine-the
best of meats and the finest of wines.On this mountain He will
destroy the shroud that enfolds[chaff?] all peoples, the sheet
that covers all nations; He will swallow up death forever. The
Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears from all faces.
HE WILL REMOVE THE DISGRACE OF HIS PEOPLE FROM ALL
THE EARTH. The LORD HAS SPOKEN
Blessings, Sheila :HeartThrob:
The wheat will be separated from the chaff:
A crown is given to those who overcome: If you have sin and are discusted with it but can't seem to loose it no matter what you do, would you be grateful to God for removing it from you? (thorn in the flesh)
They will suffer loss but they will be saved: If you are carnally minded and love the ways of the world and enjoy your toys very much, would you be anguished if God wrenched these things from you? (the rich man)
The least will be the greatest: Who of us will be most glorified in the kingdom of heaven? Which people were the most grateful to Jesus for setting them free?