Romans 14 Forced submission?

[Universalist Catholic]

Someone recently stated that in Romans 14, that every Knee shall bow means forced submission.

1And him who is weak in the faith receive ye -- not to determinations of reasonings;

2one doth believe that he may eat all things -- and he who is weak doth eat herbs;

3let not him who is eating despise him who is not eating: and let not him who is not eating judge him who is eating, for God did receive him.

4Thou -- who art thou that art judging another's domestic? to his own master he doth stand or fall; and he shall be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

5One doth judge one day above another, and another doth judge every day [alike]; let each in his own mind be fully assured.

6He who is regarding the day, to the Lord he doth regard [it], and he who is not regarding the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He who is eating, to the Lord he doth eat, for he doth give thanks to God; and he who is not eating, to the Lord he doth not eat, and doth give thanks to God.

7For none of us to himself doth live, and none to himself doth die;

8for both, if we may live, to the Lord we live; if also we may die, to the Lord we die; both then if we may live, also if we may die, we are the Lord's;

9for because of this Christ both died and rose again, and lived again, that both of dead and of living he may be Lord.

10And thou, why dost thou judge thy brother? or again, thou, why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand at the tribunal of the Christ;

11for it hath been written, `I live! saith the Lord -- to Me bow shall every knee, and every tongue shall confess to God;'

12so, then, each of us concerning himself shall give reckoning to God;

13no longer, therefore, may we judge one another, but this judge ye rather, not to put a stumbling-stone before the brother, or an offence.

14I have known, and am persuaded, in the Lord Jesus, that nothing [is] unclean of itself, except to him who is reckoning anything to be unclean -- to that one [it is] unclean;

15and if through victuals thy brother is grieved, no more dost thou walk according to love; do not with thy victuals destroy that one for whom Christ died.

16Let not, then, your good be evil spoken of,

17for the reign of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit;

18for he who in these things is serving the Christ, [is] acceptable to God and approved of men.

19So, then, the things of peace may we pursue, and the things of building up one another;

20for the sake of victuals cast not down the work of God; all things, indeed, [are] pure, but evil [is] to the man who is eating through stumbling.

21Right [it is] not to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor to [do anything] in which thy brother doth stumble, or is made to fall, or is weak.

22Thou hast faith! to thyself have [it] before God; happy is he who is not judging himself in what he doth approve,

23and he who is making a difference, if he may eat, hath been condemned, because [it is] not of faith; and all that [is] not of faith is sin.

[WhiteWings]

^YLTRom 14
11 for it hath been written, `I live! saith the Lord--to Me bow shall every knee, and every tongue shall confess to God;'

^YLTIsa 45
22 Turn to Me, and be saved, all ends of the earth, For I am God, and there is none else.
23 By Myself I have sworn, Gone out from my mouth in righteousness hath a word, And it turneth not back, That to Me, bow doth every knee, every tongue swear.


Rom. 14:1-23 is an awesome passage. Yes, we shall all bow before the Lord and it is connected with judgment, but the judgment that is spoken of is for us all.  We shall all bow before the Lord and our works shall be judged - thus we should not judge one another.  The word bow is kampto and means to bow one's knee in religious veneration (Vine's, Strong's, and DBL).  It speaks of a voluntary act of worship, not a forced submission.  It does not reflect the idea that one is bowing on the outside but standing up on the inside.   Kampto is used only 4 times in the NT - Rom. 11:4, 14:11, Eph. 3:14, Phil. 2:10.

Of course, Paul is actually quoting from Isa. 45:22-25, in which I believe Paul saw the ultimate reconciliation of all. The context is one of salvation and God ultimately accomplishing His will.  All who have raged against the Lord shall be ashamed when they come to the realization, the truth of who God is, His love for them, and how they have been so foolish as to fight against the one true God and instead followed after dumb idols.  Shame speaks of a change in heart, repentance, not obstinance and continued rebellion against God.



Rom. 14:1-23 is an awesome passage. Yes, we shall all bow before the Lord and it is connected with judgment, but the judgment that is spoken of is for us all.  We shall all bow before the Lord and our works shall be judged - thus we should not judge one another.  The word bow is kampto and means to bow one's knee in religious veneration (Vine's, Strong's, and DBL).  It speaks of a voluntary act of worship, not a forced submission.  It does not reflect the idea that one is bowing on the outside but standing up on the inside.   Kampto is used only 4 times in the NT - Rom. 11:4, 14:11, Eph. 3:14, Phil. 2:10.

Of course, Paul is actually quoting from Isa. 45:22-25, in which I believe Paul saw the ultimate reconciliation of all. The context is one of salvation and God ultimately accomplishing His will.  All who have raged against the Lord shall be ashamed when they come to the realization, the truth of who God is, His love for them, and how they have been so foolish as to fight against the one true God and instead followed after dumb idols.  Shame speaks of a change in heart, repentance, not obstinance and continued rebellion against God.
Rev. 3:9 is a beautiful passage.  The Lord promises the church of Philadelphia that those who have so strongly opposed them shall come and worship (proskyneo) before them.  Kneeling or bowing before someone and kissing their hand was "an expression of profound reverence", "homage shown to men and beings of superior rank".  It is a promise to the church of Philadelphia, that those who are of the "synagogue of Satan" who opposed them would eventually repent and come bow before them.  It is a scene of triumph and reconciliation.  We are to love even our enemies.  When they come before us having realized how badly they treated us, even repaying evil for good, we in turn recieve them.  It is a promise of those having suffered for the sake of the Kingdom of God ultimately coming to a place of respect and honor even by those who now oppose them.

[legoman]

If you study Isaiah 45:23, you will see it is actually talking about every tongue swearing allegiance.  That is how it is translated in the NASB.

It is impossible to force someone to swear allegiance against their will, and have them actually mean it.  At best you could force someone to swear a false allegiance (ie. mouth the words but not actually mean it).  But God has no need for false praise.

[shawn]

The idea of forced submission brings about many thoughts.  I try to look at my life and see if it applies.  What I know, is I didn't choose God, he chose me.  I know the maturity that has happened, and the furthering maturation of my life is by His hand only.  What is my role in this process of sanctification?  Do I choose Kingdom principles?  Do I choose good?  I believe I was predestined to be conformed to the likeness of Christ.  Nothing within me is able to choose or accomplish this.  If I am predestined, chosen, and nothing within me is capable of bringing this into being...what do you call it?  What is my role in it?

I am merely the farmer who watches a crop mature.  My field wasn't planted or cultivated by me, but I reap the benefits of the worker.  I watch as Christ does a work in me almost as an outsider.  My meddling just seems to delay the inevitable.

Is this forced submission?  I don't know what you call it.  What I do know is mankind hasn't chosen Christ, Christ has chosen us.  And with whom is chosen, they will be developed into his likeness.  We are called into submission.

[fullarmor2]

   Some folks while defending ET act like if these verses are referring to a forced submission to God then these verses support the ET position.   But no,  salvation would still apply.  Just because a person has to submit to Jesus reluctantly, doesn't mean they are not saved.   After all,  we see in Revelation where it refers to the 1000 year reign of Jesus over the nations,  towards the end of the 1000 years there is a rebellion.  How do we know that the people in this rebellion were not still rebellious in heart when they were saved into Christs Kingdom and required to submit to Jesus' authority?

[WhiteWings]

The famous Calvistic elect is forced submission too.
In a way most of the OT is forced submission.
God walks with His people but as soon they do something they are punished until they return to the narrow road.