Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[Molly]

Speaktruth, it's the tabernacle in the wilderness where you should start your study.  God told Moses , Build it according to my specifications,  because it is based on a heavenly pattern.   It's a huge study, and well worth the time.   


I put a link to a children's model of it which shows you the three courts if you go through all the pictures.  I have no idea how much you know about it but there is a lot of information online.


4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5Who serve to the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, said he, that you make all things according to the pattern showed to you in the mount. 6But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.   Heb 8





http://the-tabernacle-place.com/the-tabernacle-model-kit/

[speaktruth]

Speaktruth, it's the tabernacle in the wilderness where you should start your study.  God told Moses , Build it according to my specifications,  because it is based on a heavenly pattern.   It's a huge study, and well worth the time.   


I put a link to a children's model of it which shows you the three courts if you go through all the pictures.  I have no idea how much you know about it but there is a lot of information online.


4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5Who serve to the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, said he, that you make all things according to the pattern showed to you in the mount. 6But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.   Heb 9





http://the-tabernacle-place.com/the-tabernacle-model-kit/

Thank you Molly...  but, actually I do know a great deal about the tabernacle in the wilderness...  for some reason I have such a great need for this "new look at three in one" and because you mentioned Temple, inner court, outer court, holy of holies, I just want the specific OT Scriptures you used regarding the "Temple, inner court, outer court, and holy of holies"...  but this is enough involvement in long discussions for me...  I will have more time next week to use Bible search...
God bless all your efforts...

[Molly]

Speaktruth, I"ve known about the tabernacle for so long that I would have to go searching through the Bible for what you are asking.  If you already know a lot about it yourself, why do you ask--you must already know yourself about the three courts in the tabernacle?




"at least 50 chapters (13-Ex, 18-Lev, 13-Num, 2-Deut, 4-Heb) in the Bible tell of the construction, the ritual, the priesthood, the carrying of the tabernacle, and the meaning of it all. Also many other places in Scripture speak in figurative language concerning the tabernacle."

[Molly]

I'm putting this passage here as a rosetta stone to the Holy Spirit.




15 And when the ship was caught, and could not bear up into the wind, we let her drive.

16 And running under a certain island which is called Clauda, we had much work to come by the boat:

17 Which when they had taken up, they used helps, undergirding the ship; and, fearing lest they should fall into the quicksands, strake sail, and so were driven.

18 And we being exceedingly tossed with a tempest, the next day they lightened the ship;

19 And the third day we cast out with our own hands the tackling of the ship.

20 And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest lay on us, all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.

21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.

22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.

23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,

24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.

25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

--Acts 27

[Molly]

Jesus speaks in the plural and speaks for the Father:



John 3:11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.



John 14:10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.



John 7:16 Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.



John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.




Echad = Unity=ONE of which we have been made partakers:


John 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

[Molly]

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Peter 1:2-4)




"partakers"


G2844
κοινωνός

koinōnos

koy-no-nos'

From G2839; a sharer, that is, associate: - companion, X fellowship, partaker, partner.




2 Thessalonians 2:14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


1 Peter 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.



1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

[Molly]

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy has begotten us again to a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith to salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. [1 Peter 1]





has begotten (us) again"

G313

αναγεννάω

anagennaō

an-ag-en-nah'-o

From G303 and G1080; to beget or (by extension) bear (again): - beget, (bear) X again.



8 He raises up the poor out of the dust, and lifts up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he has set the world on them. 9He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail. 10The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder on them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength to his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed. [1 Sam 2]



So he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts. [Zech 4:6]

[redhotmagma]

I'm putting this passage here as a rosetta stone to the Holy Spirit.




15 And when the ship was caught, and could not bear up into the wind, we let her drive.

16 And running under a certain island which is called Clauda, we had much work to come by the boat:

17 Which when they had taken up, they used helps, undergirding the ship; and, fearing lest they should fall into the quicksands, strake sail, and so were driven.

18 And we being exceedingly tossed with a tempest, the next day they lightened the ship;

19 And the third day we cast out with our own hands the tackling of the ship.

20 And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest lay on us, all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.

21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.

22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.

23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,

24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.

25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

--Acts 17

I don't think that means what you are saying here.  As you know there are no commas in the greek.  But these few translations have it different, which are all trinitarian biased translations btw.  Who Paul belongs to is the God, the angel belongs to the God also, Paul is not saying he belongs to the angel.

NET
For last night an angel of the God to whom I belong 1  and whom I serve 2  came to me 3
NIV ©
Last night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve stood beside me
NASB ©
"For this very night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood before me,
NLT ©
For last night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood beside me,
MSG ©
"Last night God's angel stood at my side, an angel of this God I serve,
BBE ©
For this night there came to my side an angel of the God who is my Master and whose servant I am,
NRSV ©
For last night there stood by me an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I worship,
NKJV ©
"For there stood by me this night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve,

[micah7:9]

By interpretation in the mind of man (religion), the POWER of the Lord(Jehovah) God is made a "person" an entity, separate, and actually it's own god.

I understand that the "3 persons in 1- the blessed trinity," is a religious doctrine/theory, that has been accepted by most of christianity and believing in the doctrine is certainly a persons choice.
But evidence in the Bible of such "plain spelled out words" that the Holy Spirit is a person, or that there is a "God the Holy Spirit", or that other than a formula as in Matt. 28:19 is nowhere to be found in any of the other 3 Gospels or the writings of Paul, Peter, James, Jude, and Revelation to be a witness(2 or 3) must cause one to pause, before accepting such a belief.

As it has been said by EW, whether one chooses to believe or not believe in a "trinity teaching" does not make either side less a believer in Jesus Christ the Savior of the world.  :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

As for myself, in my studies,(I at one time believed in it) I have not found the teaching to be validated in the 15 translations of the Bible's I own.  I do not find the teaching to be a grey area or to be used by "control freaks." :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

2 Chronicles 32:7 "Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or discouraged because of the king of Assyria and the vast army with him, for there is a greater power with us than with him.


2 Chronicles 32:8 With him is only the arm of flesh, but with us is the LORD our God to help us and to fight our battles." And the people gained confidence from what Hezekiah the king of Judah said.



The Lord is at your right hand. He will crush kings in the day of his wrath. [Psalm 110:5]



This is referring to the Lord at the right hand of the Son in heaven, and the Son is sitting at the right hand of the Father.


This same Lord is at our right hand.



Psalm 109:31 For he stands at the right hand of the needy, to save their lives from those who would condemn them.




Numbers 10:35 Whenever the ark set out, Moses said, "Rise up, LORD! May your enemies be scattered; may your foes flee before you."



Psalm 132:8 Arise, LORD, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might.



Two.  See the Two?  What's inside the ark?  Who wrote it?




But you will not leave in haste or go in flight; for the LORD will go before you, the God of Israel will be your rear guard.  [Isa 52:12]

[Molly]

I'm putting this passage here as a rosetta stone to the Holy Spirit.




15 And when the ship was caught, and could not bear up into the wind, we let her drive.

16 And running under a certain island which is called Clauda, we had much work to come by the boat:

17 Which when they had taken up, they used helps, undergirding the ship; and, fearing lest they should fall into the quicksands, strake sail, and so were driven.

18 And we being exceedingly tossed with a tempest, the next day they lightened the ship;

19 And the third day we cast out with our own hands the tackling of the ship.

20 And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest lay on us, all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.

21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.

22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.

23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,

24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.

25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

--Acts 17

I don't think that means what you are saying here.  As you know there are no commas in the greek.  But these few translations have it different, which are all trinitarian biased translations btw.  Who Paul belongs to is the God, the angel belongs to the God also, Paul is not saying he belongs to the angel.

NET
For last night an angel of the God to whom I belong 1  and whom I serve 2  came to me 3
NIV ©
Last night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve stood beside me
NASB ©
"For this very night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood before me,
NLT ©
For last night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood beside me,
MSG ©
"Last night God's angel stood at my side, an angel of this God I serve,
BBE ©
For this night there came to my side an angel of the God who is my Master and whose servant I am,
NRSV ©
For last night there stood by me an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I worship,
NKJV ©
"For there stood by me this night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve,

I don't think you understood what I was saying there.

[Molly]

19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:

20 And it [the pillar of cloud] came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.

--Ex 14





Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. [John 12:35]

[redhotmagma]

I'm putting this passage here as a rosetta stone to the Holy Spirit.




15 And when the ship was caught, and could not bear up into the wind, we let her drive.

16 And running under a certain island which is called Clauda, we had much work to come by the boat:

17 Which when they had taken up, they used helps, undergirding the ship; and, fearing lest they should fall into the quicksands, strake sail, and so were driven.

18 And we being exceedingly tossed with a tempest, the next day they lightened the ship;

19 And the third day we cast out with our own hands the tackling of the ship.

20 And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest lay on us, all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.

21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.

22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.

23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,

24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.

25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

--Acts 17

I don't think that means what you are saying here.  As you know there are no commas in the greek.  But these few translations have it different, which are all trinitarian biased translations btw.  Who Paul belongs to is the God, the angel belongs to the God also, Paul is not saying he belongs to the angel.

NET
For last night an angel of the God to whom I belong 1  and whom I serve 2  came to me 3
NIV ©
Last night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve stood beside me
NASB ©
"For this very night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood before me,
NLT ©
For last night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood beside me,
MSG ©
"Last night God's angel stood at my side, an angel of this God I serve,
BBE ©
For this night there came to my side an angel of the God who is my Master and whose servant I am,
NRSV ©
For last night there stood by me an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I worship,
NKJV ©
"For there stood by me this night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve,

I don't think you understood what I was saying there.

Are you saying this angel is a person of the trinity?  You said it's the Rosetta Stone for the HS. Please enlighten me.

[micah7:9]

For me Molly, you have made a rock solid and undebateable affirmation, that the power of the Lord God  His Spirit/Holy Spirit, and that it's presence is 24/7 to aid in the believers walk, and a detriment to those who have not been drawn to Him.  :HeartThrob:
I applaud you for your work. :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

I'm putting this passage here as a rosetta stone to the Holy Spirit.




15 And when the ship was caught, and could not bear up into the wind, we let her drive.

16 And running under a certain island which is called Clauda, we had much work to come by the boat:

17 Which when they had taken up, they used helps, undergirding the ship; and, fearing lest they should fall into the quicksands, strake sail, and so were driven.

18 And we being exceedingly tossed with a tempest, the next day they lightened the ship;

19 And the third day we cast out with our own hands the tackling of the ship.

20 And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest lay on us, all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.

21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.

22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.

23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,

24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.

25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

--Acts 17

I don't think that means what you are saying here.  As you know there are no commas in the greek.  But these few translations have it different, which are all trinitarian biased translations btw.  Who Paul belongs to is the God, the angel belongs to the God also, Paul is not saying he belongs to the angel.

NET
For last night an angel of the God to whom I belong 1  and whom I serve 2  came to me 3
NIV ©
Last night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve stood beside me
NASB ©
"For this very night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood before me,
NLT ©
For last night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood beside me,
MSG ©
"Last night God's angel stood at my side, an angel of this God I serve,
BBE ©
For this night there came to my side an angel of the God who is my Master and whose servant I am,
NRSV ©
For last night there stood by me an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I worship,
NKJV ©
"For there stood by me this night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve,

I don't think you understood what I was saying there.

Are you saying this angel is a person of the trinity?  You said it's the Rosetta Stone for the HS. Please enlighten me.

I believe that is what Molly is saying.

[Molly]

I called the passage a Rosetta stone to the Holy Spirit, RHM.  What's a Rosetta stone?




1.: a black basalt stone found in 1799 that bears an inscription in hieroglyphics, demotic characters, and Greek and is celebrated for having given the first clue to the decipherment of Egyptian hieroglyphics


2: one that gives a clue to understanding


3.  A key to some previously undecipherable mystery.

[Molly]

For me Molly, you have made a rock solid and undebateable affirmation, that the power of the Lord God  His Spirit/Holy Spirit, and that it's presence is 24/7 to aid in the believers walk, and a detriment to those who have not been drawn to Him.  :HeartThrob:
I applaud you for your work. :dsunny:

yes, not only is He present 24/7,


He will be with you forever. Jn 14:16

[redhotmagma]

Molly so how is that passage the rosetta stone for the personhood of the HS?

[micah7:9]

For me Molly, you have made a rock solid and undebateable affirmation, that the power of the Lord God  His Spirit/Holy Spirit, and that it's presence is 24/7 to aid in the believers walk, and a detriment to those who have not been drawn to Him.  :HeartThrob:
I applaud you for your work. :dsunny:

yes, not only is He present 24/7,


He will be with you forever. Jn 14:16

My bad, I just thought everyone who believe knew that :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

Molly so how is that passage the rosetta stone for the personhood of the HS?

:thumbsup:

[Molly]

Molly so how is that passage the rosetta stone for the personhood of the HS?

First of all, do you believe that Paul was receiving a message from the Holy Spirit on that sinking ship?  Yes or No?

[micah7:9]

For me Molly, you have made a rock solid and undebateable affirmation, that the power of the Lord God  His Spirit/Holy Spirit, and that it's presence is 24/7 to aid in the believers walk, and a detriment to those who have not been drawn to Him.  :HeartThrob:
I applaud you for your work. :dsunny:

yes, not only is He present 24/7,


He will be with you forever. Jn 14:16

My bad, I just thought everyone who believe knew that :dsunny:

Yes, Micah, you know everything.  We have already established that.  No need to repeat it.

Well you seem to be "The Oracle" on 99% of the Bible and from my understanding you find me a heretic. I take no offence :dsunny:

[Molly]

Don't put words in my mouth, Micah.  I never called you 'a heretic.'

But, thanks for calling me an "oracle,' although I suspect you meant it sarcastically, like everything you say to me.
'

[micah7:9]

Don't put words in my mouth, Micah.  I never called you 'a heretic.'

But, thanks for calling me an "oracle,' although I suspect you meant it sarcastically, like everything you say to me.
'

Heretic: a person who professes a heresy, esp. a church member who holds beliefs opposed to church dogma.
Sounds like it to me without using the word. And yes I was being sarcastic only cause I thought I was responding to sarcasm. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[dajomaco]

Molly

Jesus surrenders his will to the Father.
Jesus said I have a will my own will I freely give it over to the Father.

Where is scriptures do we get any thing close to;

1) I the Father give up my free will to you God the Spirit.

2) I God the Spirit give up my free will to you God the Father.