Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[mplsfitter539]

Sorry for not posting lately on this thread. This has been the one topic I have always wanted to debate about. If you go back to the first post on this thread you will see that I made a comment to another member here. I made that comment because I thought we were all of one mind. This has proven to me that even that even the select few that we are, we still don't agree on all aspects. That is why this is such an important topic to me because as I continue daily to search for the truth. Understanding how anyone can believe in the trinity theory has become even more difficult for me after reading every post on this thread. My parents believe in the trinity theory along with x-mas, easter, pre trib rapture theory, and most all of the other pagan doctrines slipped in while no one was looking. My older sister is a "pastor" for the youth group in her church and she also buys into all of the false doctrines of mainstream "christianity". What will these people say when Yahweh asks them why they followed the traditions of men ?

[Molly]

letting go and letting God   do what** only He can do can be such a struggle... sometimes a day at the beach can be very productive... 

**
change hearts and minds

LOL.  Good advice. I'm like a dog with a bone.  But, I want to show you something before I go, and this is just for your ears, between you and me, Anna.  You remember this passage in Acts 5  where Peter says you lied to the Holy Spirit, You lied to God.  And both people who lied died?  Peter is filled with the Holy Spirit so when they lie to Peter, they lie to the Holy Spirit, and Peter says this is lying to God. He is equating the Spirit with God.  Watch.

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession.  2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles' feet.  3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?  4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

5 Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things.  6 And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.

7 Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.  8 And Peter answered her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?"

She said, "Yes, for so much."

9 Then Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out."  10 Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband.  11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.

--Acts 5

"to test the Spirit of the Lord."  And, what happens--they die.   Where have we heard that before?

Isn't it reminiscent of this passage from Heb 3 where it recounts how the Israelites all tested the LORD in the desert and the ones that did all died in the wilderness.  "You will never enter into my rest," he says. [my paraphrase.]



15 Then while it is [still] called Today, if you would hear His voice and when you hear it, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion [in the desert, when the people provoked and irritated and embittered God against them].

16 For who were they who heard and yet were rebellious and provoked [Him]? Was it not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?

17 And with whom was He irritated and provoked and grieved for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose dismembered bodies were strewn and left in the desert?

18 And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who disobeyed [who had not listened to His word and who refused to be compliant or be persuaded]?

19 So we see that they were not able to enter [into His rest], because of their unwillingness to adhere to and trust in and rely on God [unbelief had shut them out].
--Heb 3


Let's listen to him say it himself:

10 But the whole community began to talk about stoning Joshua and Caleb. Then the glorious presence of the Lord appeared to all the Israelites at the Tabernacle. 11 And the Lord said to Moses, "How long will these people treat me with contempt? Will they never believe me, even after all the miraculous signs I have done among them? 12 I will disown them and destroy them with a plague. Then I will make you into a nation greater and mightier than they are!"

--Numbers 14


and--after negotiating with Moses--


20 Then the Lord said, "I will pardon them as you have requested. 21 But as surely as I live, and as surely as the earth is filled with the Lord's glory, 22 not one of these people will ever enter that land. They have all seen my glorious presence and the miraculous signs I performed both in Egypt and in the wilderness, but again and again they have tested me by refusing to listen to my voice. 23 They will never even see the land I swore to give their ancestors. None of those who have treated me with contempt will ever see it. 24 But my servant Caleb has a different attitude than the others have. He has remained loyal to me, so I will bring him into the land he explored. His descendants will possess their full share of that land. 25 Now turn around, and don't go on toward the land where the Amalekites and Canaanites live. Tomorrow you must set out for the wilderness in the direction of the Red Sea."

--Numbers 14

So just something for you to consider, Anna, and I'm just talking to you, *I'm thinking* the Holy Spirit is this God we hear talking to Moses in Numbers 14, the God of the Old Testament that scares everyone to death, the one about whom everyone says there must be some mistake--he doesn't look anything like Jesus--but look what happens when Ananias and Saphira lie to him--they drop dead---and Jesus himself says to the Pharisees,  You can say anything you want about me, but don't blaspheme the Big Guy, he won't forgive you for two aeons. [my paraphrase].

[micah7:9]

I believe the Holy Spirit is the being of God. Manifest through the Son He is the Spirit of Christ. I just don't believ he is a co-equal third of a Trinity. I bet all of our actual perceptions o the Godhead are different in shades of overlap in some places and complete disagreement in others.

For instance, when Paul says Jesus has received the Holy Spirit without limit- What does that mean if the Holy Spirit is one third of a Trinity?

When it says God was p[leased to make "all the fulness dwell in Jesus"- what does that mean?

To a modalist it means just what it says- ALL OF GOD IS IN JESUS AND THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD- and I can hardly blame the modalist for reading it that way- even tho I disagree :o)

To a Binitarian Jesus can be co-equal and co-eternal or He can be a Son less than His Father and the first born of creation- or, to some Binitarians Jesus is also co-equal and co-eternal to the Father and the Holy Spirit is the onesss of the Father and the Son expressed and executed. How this is somehow stranger than the Trinity I cant really say. Because if you can believe the Trinity formula you can believe anything, I think- Nothing could be stranger to me.

To a biblical unitarian Jesus was "Foreknown from the foundation of the world but manifest in these last times for you"- they do not believe Jesus was born God at all, but rather a man, sinless by rights of a perfect seed in a virgin- and WHY NOT?

When they hear "So it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him" they agree with the Modalist.

But all of these believe Jesus was the only begotten son of God.

All of these believe in redemption by His blood.


Muslims do not believe Jesus was the Only Begotten.
JWs do not believe Jesus was the Only Begotten.
Mormons do not believ that Jesus was the Only Begotten.

This is where the rubber meets the road for me.

No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. This doesnt mean, by the way, just saying the words as some formula. It means confessing it out of faith- a witness from the heart.

Some people see the Holy Spirit as the wind- That doesnt necessarily  mean they think anyone can access it like "the force". regardless whether they see it as  Trinity or a Binity or a Unity they see it as the spirit of YHWH and or Yeshua and understand that the access is granted through the name of the Son of God and the cleansing power of His blood within the clay vessel that bears the precious treasure.

I believe the Father and the Son and the angels are all manifestations of the One true God who is spirit- and the light that lights very man that comes into the world is also the spirit of God as Paul said, "In Him we live and breathe and have our being."

Some think "the Holy Spirit" as we know it is a particular manifestation of the overall spirit of God only for believers but we know that no man comes to the Jesus except the Father draws them. How does He draw them?  By the Spirit!

But Paul says if any man have not the Spirit of Christ that man is none of His. So we know not all men have the spirit. There is "the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience" and the Spirit by which we cry "Abba Father"!

It is all very murky really, quite convoluted and by no means clear IMO-

I completely fail to understand how folks can put their foot down so hard on any of the particular views expressed in the main systems they are in as if any of them was anywhere near complete or clear or totally sound :o)

:iagree:

I must agree with EW. My one problem is "trinity" [a theological theory of 3 persons in 1] not found once described in the Bible. And as mplsfitter539 stated "My parents believe in the trinity theory along with x-mas, easter, pre trib rapture theory, and most all of the other pagan doctrines slipped in while no one was looking. My older sister is a "pastor" for the youth group in her church and she also buys into all of the false doctrines of mainstream "christianity" Accept "... while no one was looking."
The Lord God certainly knew these things would come about, so He was looking. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

letting go and letting God   do what** only He can do can be such a struggle... sometimes a day at the beach can be very productive... 

**
change hearts and minds

LOL.  Good advice. I'm like a dog with a bone.  But, I want to show you something before I go, and this is just for your ears, between you and me, Anna.  You remember this passage in Acts 5  where Peter says you lied to the Holy Spirit, You lied to God.  And both people who lied died?  Peter is filled with the Holy Spirit so when they lie to Peter, they lie to the Holy Spirit, and Peter says this is lying to God. He is equating the Spirit with God.  Watch.

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession.  2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles' feet.  3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?  4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

5 Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things.  6 And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.

7 Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.  8 And Peter answered her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?"

She said, "Yes, for so much."

9 Then Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out."  10 Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband.  11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.

--Acts 5

"to test the Spirit of the Lord."  And, what happens--they die.   Where have we heard that before?

Isn't it reminiscent of this passage from Heb 3 where it recounts how the Israelites all tested the LORD in the desert and the ones that did all died in the wilderness.  "You will never enter into my rest," he says. [my paraphrase.]



15 Then while it is [still] called Today, if you would hear His voice and when you hear it, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion [in the desert, when the people provoked and irritated and embittered God against them].

16 For who were they who heard and yet were rebellious and provoked [Him]? Was it not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?

17 And with whom was He irritated and provoked and grieved for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose dismembered bodies were strewn and left in the desert?

18 And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who disobeyed [who had not listened to His word and who refused to be compliant or be persuaded]?

19 So we see that they were not able to enter [into His rest], because of their unwillingness to adhere to and trust in and rely on God [unbelief had shut them out].
--Heb 3


Let's listen to him say it himself:

10 But the whole community began to talk about stoning Joshua and Caleb. Then the glorious presence of the Lord appeared to all the Israelites at the Tabernacle. 11 And the Lord said to Moses, "How long will these people treat me with contempt? Will they never believe me, even after all the miraculous signs I have done among them? 12 I will disown them and destroy them with a plague. Then I will make you into a nation greater and mightier than they are!"

--Numbers 14


and--after negotiating with Moses--


20 Then the Lord said, "I will pardon them as you have requested. 21 But as surely as I live, and as surely as the earth is filled with the Lord's glory, 22 not one of these people will ever enter that land. They have all seen my glorious presence and the miraculous signs I performed both in Egypt and in the wilderness, but again and again they have tested me by refusing to listen to my voice. 23 They will never even see the land I swore to give their ancestors. None of those who have treated me with contempt will ever see it. 24 But my servant Caleb has a different attitude than the others have. He has remained loyal to me, so I will bring him into the land he explored. His descendants will possess their full share of that land. 25 Now turn around, and don't go on toward the land where the Amalekites and Canaanites live. Tomorrow you must set out for the wilderness in the direction of the Red Sea."

--Numbers 14

So just something for you to consider, Anna, and I'm just talking to you, *I'm thinking* the Holy Spirit is this God we hear talking to Moses in Numbers 14, the God of the Old Testament that scares everyone to death, the one about whom everyone says there must be some mistake--he doesn't look anything like Jesus--but look what happens when Ananias and Saphira lie to him--they drop dead---and Jesus himself says to the Pharisees,  You can say anything you want about me, but don't blaspheme the Big Guy, he won't forgive you for two aeons. [my paraphrase].

Sorry to intrude on your private conversation with Anna :o)    I believe the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of God. Therefore to lie to the the Holy Spirit is lying to the Lord whether one believes the Holy Spirit is a third co-equal, co-eternal part of a "Trinity", or not. To lie to an angel, as a representative of God is also lying to the Lord. To lie to Peter who was standing as the messenger of the Lord, is also lying to the Holy Spirit, and thus, lying to God.......IMO, none of this establishes the orthodox Trinity doctrine.

[rosered]

I agree  John /EW    :thumbsup:   Same way [BELIEVE for the works sake ] came as FORM  examples of a dove or cloud   always the  TRUE WITNESS



Believe thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works. 


Jhn 14:11   Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 

Sorry to intrude on your private conversation with Anna :o)    I believe the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of God. Therefore to lie to the the Holy Spirit is lying to the Lord whether one believes the Holy Spirit is a third co-equal, co-eternal part of a "Trinity", or not. To lie to an angel, as a representative of God is also lying to the Lord. To lie to Peter who was standing as the messenger of the Lord, is also lying to the Holy Spirit, and thus, lying to God.......IMO, none of this establishes the orthodox Trinity doctrine.

Jhn 13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receives whomsoever I send receives me;

and he that receives me receives him that sent me.   :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

EW and  rosered   :thumbsup: :dsunny:

[Molly]

Sorry to intrude on your private conversation with Anna :o)    I believe the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of God. Therefore to lie to the the Holy Spirit is lying to the Lord whether one believes the Holy Spirit is a third co-equal, co-eternal part of a "Trinity", or not. To lie to an angel, as a representative of God is also lying to the Lord. To lie to Peter who was standing as the messenger of the Lord, is also lying to the Holy Spirit, and thus, lying to God.......IMO, none of this establishes the orthodox Trinity doctrine.

First of all, Peter does not say, You lied to a representative of God.  Peter said, You lied... to God.

That's why I posted the text so you could see that.  So why would you put it through a filter and then quote it back to me as something other than what it is?

This is what I don't understand.  The text is clear.  Why not read it?  If the text says some will deny the power [dunamis] of God, how could anyone come back to me and say, You are accusing us of denying the Holy Spirit?  No I wasn't.  And, the text wasn't, either.  The power [dunamis] given to us by the Holy Spirit is NOT the Holy Spirit .  In fact, neither I nor the text was accusing anyone of anything.

If we could just be a little more rigorous in reading the text, it would be so helpful to the discussion. :cloud9:

PS How does your representative of God theory work regarding Jesus saying, Say what you like to/about me, but don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit?


And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.  Luke 12:10

[rosered]

  Oh My Molly 
Peter was one whom the Lord
breathed  upon and recived the Holy Ghost /Spirit      when Jesus returned     to them   that power was in him/ witness
  to remit or retain sins !  all of John 20

Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you. 


Jhn 20:20   And when he had so said, he shewed unto them [his] hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. 


Jhn 20:21   Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 


Jhn 20:22   And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 


Jhn 20:23   Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.

[eaglesway]

Sorry to intrude on your private conversation with Anna :o)    I believe the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of God. Therefore to lie to the the Holy Spirit is lying to the Lord whether one believes the Holy Spirit is a third co-equal, co-eternal part of a "Trinity", or not. To lie to an angel, as a representative of God is also lying to the Lord. To lie to Peter who was standing as the messenger of the Lord, is also lying to the Holy Spirit, and thus, lying to God.......IMO, none of this establishes the orthodox Trinity doctrine.

First of all, Peter does not say, You lied to a representative of God.  Peter said, You lied... to God.

That's why I posted the text so you could see that.  So why would you put it through a filter and then quote it back to me as something other than what it is?

This is what I don't understand.  The text is clear.  Why not read it?  If the text says some will deny the power [dunamis] of God, how could anyone come back to me and say, You are accusing us of denying the Holy Spirit?  No I wasn't.  And, the text wasn't, either.  The power [dunamis] given to us by the Holy Spirit is NOT the Holy Spirit .  In fact, neither I nor the text was accusing anyone of anything.

If we could just be a little more rigorous in reading the text, it would be so helpful to the discussion. :cloud9:

PS How does your representative of God theory work regarding Jesus saying, Say what you like to/about me, but don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit?


And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.  Luke 12:10

Annanias and Saphira lied to Peter, Peter was the representative of God, the Holy Spirit was in everyone who was in the whole church. Their lives were taken because of there presumption..... remember Paul said, " I have decided in the presence of God and His holy angels to deliver such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit can be saved in the day of the Lord"

Peter also said, "It seemed good unto us, and unto the Holy Spirit and unto whole assembly (regarding baptising Cornelias' house. Let me ask you Molly, did this include God- or was God not included because He was not specifically mentioned? Isnt that a little ridiculous?

I said Peter was a representative of God and the Holy Spirit aa manifestation of God, even as Jesus is a manifestation of God.

But you hav come to Mt Zion the city of the living God and to the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God the judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant and to the sprinkled blood that speaks better than Able. See to it you do not refuse Him who is speaking.

Who is that?   God. Who is He speaking through? All of the above! I hav said I believe the Holy Spirit is the being of God- so where is the offense? I see none. I just dont believe the Holy Spirit is one third of some man made Trinity.

Wherever two or more of you gather in my name there I am also..... I am in the Father and the Father is in me and I am in you!

And you all as living stones are being built into a tabernacle of God in the spirit.

For He is the radiance of the Fathers glory and the express image of His nature and all things hold together by the power of His word.

For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of His cross.

Jesus is the chief cornerstone, the Only Begotten Son, the Holy Spirit is the medium of the ALL IN ALL that God is becoming, expanding like a fountain of living water, first through Jesus, then into the body of Christ, then into the whole world.

There is no need to limit this vision to this Trinity formula- nor is there any sense in it, IMO. As long as the Logos allows it, we may disagree and hopefully when we see His face we will get it  :laugh:

[anna274]

A couple of hours at my "beach" considering the "Trinity" brought to my mind and heart, one of my most favorite hymns:

I KNOW WHOM I HAVE BELIEVED   Whittle, 1883

I know not why GOD'S wondrous grace
To me He hath made known,
Nor why, unworthy, CHRIST IN LOVE  :HeartThrob:
Redeemed me for HIS own.

Refrain
But I know whom I have believed,
And am persuaded that HE is able
To keep that which I've committed
Unto HIM against that day.


I know not how this saving faith
To me HE did impart,
Nor how believing in HIS WORD
Wrought peace within my heart.


I know not how the SPIRIT moves,
Convincing us of sin,
Revealing JESUS through the WORD,
Creating faith in HIM.


I know not what of good or ill
May be reserved for me,
Of weary ways or golden days,
Before HIS face I see.


I know not when my LORD may come
At night or noonday fair
Nor if I walk the vale with HIM
Or meet HIM in the air.

BUT  I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that HE is able to guard what I have entrusted to HIM for that day.   2 Tim 1:12

[Molly]

Sorry to intrude on your private conversation with Anna :o)    I believe the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of God. Therefore to lie to the the Holy Spirit is lying to the Lord whether one believes the Holy Spirit is a third co-equal, co-eternal part of a "Trinity", or not. To lie to an angel, as a representative of God is also lying to the Lord. To lie to Peter who was standing as the messenger of the Lord, is also lying to the Holy Spirit, and thus, lying to God.......IMO, none of this establishes the orthodox Trinity doctrine.

First of all, Peter does not say, You lied to a representative of God.  Peter said, You lied... to God.

That's why I posted the text so you could see that.  So why would you put it through a filter and then quote it back to me as something other than what it is?

This is what I don't understand.  The text is clear.  Why not read it?  If the text says some will deny the power [dunamis] of God, how could anyone come back to me and say, You are accusing us of denying the Holy Spirit?  No I wasn't.  And, the text wasn't, either.  The power [dunamis] given to us by the Holy Spirit is NOT the Holy Spirit .  In fact, neither I nor the text was accusing anyone of anything.

If we could just be a little more rigorous in reading the text, it would be so helpful to the discussion. :cloud9:

PS How does your representative of God theory work regarding Jesus saying, Say what you like to/about me, but don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit?


And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.  Luke 12:10

Annanias and Saphira lied to Peter, Peter was the representative of God, the Holy Spirit was in everyone who was in the whole church. Their lives were taken because of there presumption..... remember Paul said, " I have decided in the presence of God and His holy angels to deliver such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit can be saved in the day of the Lord"

Peter also said, "It seemed good unto us, and unto the Holy Spirit and unto whole assembly (regarding baptising Cornelias' house. Let me ask you Molly, did this include God- or was God not included because He was not specifically mentioned? Isnt that a little ridiculous?

I said Peter was a representative of God and the Holy Spirit aa manifestation of God, even as Jesus is a manifestation of God.

But you hav come to Mt Zion the city of the living God and to the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God the judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant and to the sprinkled blood that speaks better than Able. See to it you do not refuse Him who is speaking.

Who is that?   God. Who is He speaking through? All of the above! I hav said I believe the Holy Spirit is the being of God- so where is the offense? I see none. I just dont believe the Holy Spirit is one third of some man made Trinity.

Wherever two or more of you gather in my name there I am also..... I am in the Father and the Father is in me and I am in you!

And you all as living stones are being built into a tabernacle of God in the spirit.

For He is the radiance of the Fathers glory and the express image of His nature and all things hold together by the power of His word.

For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of His cross.

Jesus is the chief cornerstone, the Only Begotten Son, the Holy Spirit is the medium of the ALL IN ALL that God is becoming, expanding like a fountain of living water, first through Jesus, then into the body of Christ, then into the whole world.

There is no need to limit this vision to this Trinity formula- nor is there any sense in it, IMO. As long as the Logos allows it, we may disagree and hopefully when we see His face we will get it  :laugh:

Ok, if we could slow down.  I want to be very specific.  Forget about the trinity for a moment.  Let's look at the text.


Peter says to Ananias;


3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?  4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."





Peter is saying, You have lied to the Holy Spirit [therefore]  you have lied to God.



Who is Ananias talking to?  He's talking to Peter.  Is Peter God?  No, of course not.



Then, what does Peter mean by this.  We know it is something important because Ananias drops dead.



What do we know about Peter?  He is filled with the Holy Spirit.  Yes, Rosered, the resurrected Christ himself has breathed on Peter and said, Receive ye the Holy Spirit. 



You and I have the indwelt Holy Spirit.  Do people drop dead when they lie to us?  No.  But, Peter was so full of the Holy Spirit that his shadow healed people.



IMO, Peter has so much of the Holy Spirit that lying to Peter is lying to God.



He is equating the Holy Spirit with God which he is carrying as a full vessel.





I asked you a question which you didn't answer.   If you can't answer it, just say so.  That's ok.



But, my question, which I'll make more specific is, why are people dropping dead when they lie to Peter who is carrying the fullness of the Holy Spirit and they don't drop dead when they do and say all manner of awful things to Jesus?



If you can't answer that I will  try to answer it.


But, in the meantime, please note that Peter says lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God.

unless, of course, you think Peter is God which I don't think you do.

[eaglesway]

Well, its easy to say, lets slow down and forget about the Trinity for a minute. Realise Molly, that I havent been making a bunch of doctrinal statements and absolutes, I have just been questioning the rock hard absolute of the Trinity doctrine- and pointing out that there are othe valid perspectives on a lot of the scriptures you use as proof texts.  Your usual response is to say nothing regarding what anyone else puts forth and issue anothe "data point" form your own perspective- and that is entirely ok. Of course, you are entitled to your own point of view. I just think you go to far in representing it as THE POINT OF VIEW. So, I already, if you had really read it at all, answered your question in my last post.

Let me ask you a rhetorical question.

Did Jesus kill Annaias and Saphira? Did God the Fther? Or, was it the Holy Spirit? When Peter says to Saphira, "Now the same hands that are dragging your husbands feet out the door are about to drag you out the door", was that a prophetic word? Was he acting as God's representative? Was it, "Whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven"? Did the Father or Jesus or the Holy Spirit whisper in Peters heart that this was about to happen? Was Peter so "full of the Spirit" THAT WHERE THE DIVIDING LINE IS WOULD BE HARD TO DEFINE?

Thats what I think.

You are all about hard fast definitions. I just dont think God is that way. I love that He leaves the edges murky so people cant tie the truth up in knots around boxes.

"Oh you, you are out of the box, I am going to tie you up in knots" :o)

I agree that lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. I just dont believe in the Trinity. One has nothing to do with the other and I am beginning to wonder if you know what the Trinity, as the doctrine is taught in its orthodox form, is. You obviously are not listening to what I am saying.

I believe the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are manifestations of God. I just dont think they are a co-equal Trinity. I think Jesus serves the Father and the Spirit serves them both. I do think they are co-substantial, but really, I don't think it matters much what I think. You are, as you said, "Like a dog with a bone".

Annanias and Saphira died because they were "inside" the Hebrews 12 tabernacle. They died because they lied in the presence of God. The presence of God inhabits the tabernacle of God by His Spirit. They were standing on holy ground with impure motives in the presence of God, His Holy angels, and the Great Assembly.

It wasnt just because Peter was so full of the Holy Spirit, tho he certainly was. The WHOLE PLACE WAS SATURATED WITH LIVING WATER.

What does this have to do with the orthodox Trinity doctrine? Nothing as far as I can see.

Jesus was set as the "chief cornerstone" of the temple when He was raised from the dead and enthroned in the heavens. Then YHWH began at that point making all His enemies a footstool for His feet. When every knee has bowed and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Adoni(not YHWH)- Jesus will give up His Lordship because all rule power and authority will have been done away with because YHWH, the One who subjected all things to Adoni Iesous is ALL IN ALL. That is all the definition I need :o)

Thats the I AM being ALL IN ALL. You can define it anyway you want to. I dont care- REALLY. Some of my dearest friends sincerely disagree with me on this, but we dont beat it to death when we visit one another :o)

[Molly]

You say you've already answered my question.  I don't see the answer in either of your posts.  If you are answering my question as to why it's ok to lie to Jesus but not to Peter, I'm not seeing it.



To answer your rhetorical question, I don't think Peter had anything to do with killing them.  I don't think Peter was about killing people for lying or for anything else.  Peter knew he was carrying enough of the Holy Spirit that lying to him was lying to God, because the Holy Spirit is God.


Lying to God in his holy presence is obviously a dangerous thing to do.


That is what Peter says.  I don't have to read anything into that.


It's in the text in a very simple form.


Now I find that very interesting and pretty frightening.


The statistics show that most people lie about 4 times a day.


Are you willing to say that lying inside a church or a Heb 12 tabernacle or to a man of God is an immediate death sentence?


People would be dropping dead all over the place then, wouldn't they?


What this has to do with the trinity doctrine is that it proves the Holy Spirit is God.



That is unequivocal.


I am listening to what you are saying and I'm trying to understand what you are saying.  You say a 'manifestation of God' but not co-equal.  That does not make sense to me.  Either you are God or you're not.  Can you be a little bit pregnant?  And, I don't want to put words in your mouth.  But, I think you are saying that because they will no longer have a job to do several ages from now, they will be stripped of their godlike authority?  Then they will cease to be a manifestation of God and become something else?  It just doesn't make sense to me.



You say Jesus is not YHWH.  So now I understand that.  Of course, I believe that Jesus is YHWH.   I believe Jesus is God.


If Jesus is not God, who cares if he died or not? What difference does it make?  I'm not God and if I die it won't make any difference to the world.


I find the trinity doctrine a very simple way to explain what is going on.  I like simple.  I also appreciate the deep mysteries of God.  But, I want to know what foundation I am standing on, or if I'm standing on thin air.


I keep telling people I do not come out of a church background.  I was baptized as a baby.  I was born from above in a hotel room thousands of miles from home with a Gideon Bible and the Holy Spirit--the Word of God and the Spirit saved me.


But, I find it unfortunate that some think that something I believe to be true, the trinity, is a pagan doctrine.  First of all, there is no basis for that.  Mathew 28:19 is present in the earliest existing church writings, hundreds of years before Constantine.  It was not made up by Constantine.  Second of all, it says baptize 'in the name'--singular--meaning they all have the same name, and that name, in its memorial form is YHWH.   



To me, Jesus is Lord [kurios] means he is the YHWH of the Old Testament.


To me, the Holy Spirit is God, means he is the YHWH of the Old Testament.


To me, that's not 'a manifestation of God,' that's the real thing.  This is the mystery the trinity attempts to describe.


19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:19

[mplsfitter539]

IMO the Holy Spirit is more like a hologram of YHVH. It is the exact representation of YHVH without actually being Him. YHVH uses the Holy Spirit as His representative. Peter and Yahshua were both His representatives in the same way. They were not YHVH himself but a representative of Him.

[ded2daworld]

IMO, the bible is clear that the "Father is spirit and those that worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth."
So the Father of us all is spirit. Is there any question that he is also Holy?
Logic would tell us that the Father IS Holy Spirit. Since being God, He is also omnipresent, it is just a literary
device for the Bible to say, God sent His Spirit to do such and such.
Besides, it is also clear Mary was pregnant by the Holy Spirit. The result was the SON. Every Son has a Father and since Jesus refers to God as his Father and the Holy spirit is his Fther and I previously showed the Father is Holy and a Spirit... :Peace2: :2c:

[redhotmagma]

IMO, the bible is clear that the "Father is spirit and those that worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth."
So the Father of us all is spirit. Is there any question that he is also Holy?
Logic would tell us that the Father IS Holy Spirit. Since being God, He is also omnipresent, it is just a literary
device for the Bible to say, God sent His Spirit to do such and such.
Besides, it is also clear Mary was pregnant by the Holy Spirit. The result was the SON. Every Son has a Father and since Jesus refers to God as his Father and the Holy spirit is his Fther and I previously showed the Father is Holy and a Spirit... :Peace2: :2c:

Clear concise amen amen

[Molly]

So Father equals Holy Spirit?

And the Son is what?  Something other?

So are there two God persons--Holy Spirit and Father? Or two in one?  Or one that looks like two?

But if the Son is other, why does it matter--to me or to God-- that he died on the cross?



"We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, 'This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.' We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain." 2 Peter 1:16-18



"Father, glorify your name!' Then a voice came from heaven, 'I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.' The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. Jesus said, 'This voice was for your benefit, not mine.'" John 12:28-30

[micah7:9]

IMO, the bible is clear that the "Father is spirit and those that worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth."
So the Father of us all is spirit. Is there any question that he is also Holy?
Logic would tell us that the Father IS Holy Spirit. Since being God, He is also omnipresent, it is just a literary
device for the Bible to say, God sent His Spirit to do such and such.
Besides, it is also clear Mary was pregnant by the Holy Spirit. The result was the SON. Every Son has a Father and since Jesus refers to God as his Father and the Holy spirit is his Fther and I previously showed the Father is Holy and a Spirit... :Peace2: :2c:

Where is it stated that Jesus is the son of the holy spirit?

Luk 1:35  And the messenger answering said to her, `The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God;

[micah7:9]

"I find the trinity doctrine a very simple way to explain what is going on." (Molly) 

Yes, a doctrine created by men would explain it, in the earthy realm.

"But, I find it unfortunate that some think that something I believe to be true, the trinity, is a pagan doctrine.  First of all, there is no basis for that."(Molly)

"Doctrine of the Trinity" By Dr. Ed DeVries, President of the School of Biblical & Theological Studies. His first paragraph makes the following statements:

"Since the word Trinity IS NOT FOUND ANYWHERE IN THE RECEIVED TEXT or in its offspring (the Authorized Version and other biblical translations derived from the received text), many argue that the doctrine of the Trinity is NOT A BIBLICAL ONE. However, when a person comes to understand the THEORY that is embodied in the terminology they can NOT HELP BUT FIND PROOF OF THE TRINITY THROUGHOUT THE BIBLE. The doctrine of the Trinity is believed by ALL Christian groups. Some groups profess to be Christian and DO NOT believe in the Trinity, however, NONE OF THESE GROUPS ARE TRULY CHRISTIAN..."[/u]

[eaglesway]

You say you've already answered my question.  I don't see the answer in either of your posts.  If you are answering my question as to why it's ok to lie to Jesus but not to Peter, I'm not seeing it.



To answer your rhetorical question, I don't think Peter had anything to do with killing them.  I don't think Peter was about killing people for lying or for anything else.  Peter knew he was carrying enough of the Holy Spirit that lying to him was lying to God, because the Holy Spirit is God.


Lying to God in his holy presence is obviously a dangerous thing to do.


That is what Peter says.  I don't have to read anything into that.


It's in the text in a very simple form.


Now I find that very interesting and pretty frightening.


The statistics show that most people lie about 4 times a day.


Are you willing to say that lying inside a church or a Heb 12 tabernacle or to a man of God is an immediate death sentence?


People would be dropping dead all over the place then, wouldn't they?


What this has to do with the trinity doctrine is that it proves the Holy Spirit is God.



That is unequivocal.


I am listening to what you are saying and I'm trying to understand what you are saying.  You say a 'manifestation of God' but not co-equal.  That does not make sense to me.  Either you are God or you're not.  Can you be a little bit pregnant?  And, I don't want to put words in your mouth.  But, I think you are saying that because they will no longer have a job to do several ages from now, they will be stripped of their godlike authority?  Then they will cease to be a manifestation of God and become something else?  It just doesn't make sense to me.



You say Jesus is not YHWH.  So now I understand that.  Of course, I believe that Jesus is YHWH.   I believe Jesus is God.


If Jesus is not God, who cares if he died or not? What difference does it make?  I'm not God and if I die it won't make any difference to the world.


I find the trinity doctrine a very simple way to explain what is going on.  I like simple.  I also appreciate the deep mysteries of God.  But, I want to know what foundation I am standing on, or if I'm standing on thin air.


I keep telling people I do not come out of a church background.  I was baptized as a baby.  I was born from above in a hotel room thousands of miles from home with a Gideon Bible and the Holy Spirit--the Word of God and the Spirit saved me.


But, I find it unfortunate that some think that something I believe to be true, the trinity, is a pagan doctrine.  First of all, there is no basis for that.  Mathew 28:19 is present in the earliest existing church writings, hundreds of years before Constantine.  It was not made up by Constantine.  Second of all, it says baptize 'in the name'--singular--meaning they all have the same name, and that name, in its memorial form is YHWH.   



To me, Jesus is Lord [kurios] means he is the YHWH of the Old Testament.


To me, the Holy Spirit is God, means he is the YHWH of the Old Testament.


To me, that's not 'a manifestation of God,' that's the real thing.  This is the mystery the trinity attempts to describe.


19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:19

1) The manifestation of God is God in my view. It is just not a third person fully co-equal to the Father.

2) "If Jesus is not God who cares if He died?" Well  We are not forgiven because God died. We are forgiven because a man lived a sinless life by faith, and then died when he didnt have too, thus paying our penalty- the spotless Lamb. Even most Trinitarians understand this. In fact it is a cornerstone of the doctrine that while on earth Jesus forsook whatever Godhead He possessed in order to serve...."for this reason God also highly exalted Him and gave Him the name above every name" Phil 2:9-11


More and more I wonder if you have studied the systematic theology of the Orthodox Trinitarian doctrine and are really familiar with what you believe.

At any rate tho, again, indirectly and perhaps ignorantly, you challenge the love and fatih of everyone who is non-trinitarian in their Lord and Savior Jesus.

Jesus is God, imo- He is not co-equal to the Father. He is the seed through which God created all things and the Alpha/Omega into whom all things are being gathered.

If however, as some believe, He is the Son of God and God by birth or creation- their understanding of His death as a propitiation for their sins is no less valid than yours or anyone elses.

John wrote, The Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory as the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

From any view, it was Jesus humanity, and the beauty of His perfect love within it while in the flesh, that is the glory which lends power to the cross. If as a Trinitarian you believe that HE was before and is again after fully equal to the Fathr, this does not DIMINISH THE FAITH OF OTHERS WITH ANOTHER VIEW.

They still see the glory of the only begotten, full of grace and truth, and as He was lifted up for them their hearts still overflow with praise and adoration for the Lamb of God who died for their sins and was raised for their healing and restoration.

To diminish their Messiah by your insistence on promoting your view of the godhead is, IMO, and surely to them, offensive.

You say you have listened and understood what I have been saying. I don't think that is the case. I don,t think you, as a "dog with a bone", can so much as peek outside your own paradigm to consider whether their is a possibility of an alternate view.

A man named Hislop wrote a book called the Two Babylons

www.biblebelievrs.com/babylon/

I dont support ALL of his conclusions but his research into the origins of the trinity doctrine is pretty interesting. It should be one part of the background work of anyone who is really interested in an honest study on the godhead

[dajomaco]

I believe that God the Father has a Spirit It is called the Spirit of God .

Does Holy Spirit the third person of the God head have a Spirit?

[dajomaco]

I believe
I have a spirit that is mine, it is in me.
The Holy Spirit nurtures my spirit.
Jesus has a spirit.
God has a spirit.
The flesh of Jesus was killed although perfect.
God is Spirit, Jesus is Spirit .
When my flesh is killed and I recognize that it is dead and I see that I am
Spirit the idea of all in all is as simple as one plus one equals one.     

[Molly]

More and more I wonder if you have studied the systematic theology of the Orthodox Trinitarian doctrine and are really familiar with what you believe.

No, of course I haven't.  I don't let men tell me what to believe.  Otherwise, I'd probably be an atheist because I am surrounded by them.  All I know about any trinity theology is God in three persons, blessed trinity.  It is what I see all over the Bible.  That's why I believe it.

At any rate tho, again, indirectly and perhaps ignorantly, you challenge the love and fatih of everyone who is non-trinitarian in their Lord and Savior Jesus

I am not doing this.  This is coming out of your own head.  It's called projection.  Or something else maybe.  But it's not coming from me.  Anything you say is not going to shake my faith or threaten me in any way.  My faith is coming from God not from men.  I may be surprised, or even saddened, but why would I challenge anyone else's faith and love?  That is none of my business.

If I ask you questions, I'm not challenging you.  I'm trying to figure out what you are thinking about it.

This is what I believe:

12Why, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. 14Do all things without murmurings and disputings:  [Phil 2:12]

Jesus is God, imo- He is not co-equal to the Father

I have posted a verse that says he is equal to God.  Maybe I should post it again?  I'm not sure why you wouldn't believe it.

From any view, it was Jesus humanity, and the beauty of His perfect love within it while in the flesh, that is the glory which lends power to the cross. If as a Trinitarian you believe that HE was before and is again after fully equal to the Fathr, this does not DIMINISH THE FAITH OF OTHERS WITH ANOTHER VIEW.

Where did I say it diminished the faith of others?  Quote me.

To diminish their Messiah by your insistence on promoting your view of the godhead is, IMO, and surely to them, offensive.

My insistence on 'promoting' my view?  This is a thread on the trinity.  I believe in the trinity.  What would you suggest I do, promote someone else's view?

You and others have been calling me a pagan and hostage to doctrines of men since this thread began.  Why is that ok?  Especially when its based on faulty evidence.  Have you heard me complaining?

I accept we are having a discussion from both points of view.

You say you have listened and understood what I have been saying. I don't think that is the case. I don,t think you, as a "dog with a bone", can so much as peek outside your own paradigm to consider whether their is a possibility of an alternate view.

I understand some of what you are saying now, but not completely.  If you want to talk about it we can.   If you don't want to talk about it we don't have to.

This thread [and this site] has blessed, blessed, blessed me.  More than you'll ever know.

2) "If Jesus is not God who cares if He died?" Well  We are not forgiven because God died. We are forgiven because a man lived a sinless life by faith, and then died when he didnt have too, thus paying our penalty- the spotless Lamb. Even most Trinitarians understand this. In fact it is a cornerstone of the doctrine that while on earth Jesus forsook whatever Godhead He possessed in order to serve...."for this reason God also highly exalted Him and gave Him the name above every name" Phil 2:9-11

I have something to say about this.  But, now is probably not the time to do it.

[jabcat]

I've enjoyed a lot of what's been posted, from various posters. 

calling me a pagan and hostage to doctrines of men since this thread began.

If I've missed it, and as a general statement - anything approaching this - from anyone, to anyone -  in a direct, personal manner, needs to be redirected to more general (not personal) discussion of the issues/doctrines. 
-----------------
Along with that, I saw a comment earlier from a member about "wanting to debate this".  Reminder - this is not a debate forum.  It's a discussion forum - where we maintain none of us have every single aspect of the truth cornered, and we share as we understand to the best of our ability. 

And as has been shared - "Jesus Christ, Him crucified and risen again", is the essential doctrine.  Blessings.

[micah7:9]

Quote from: eaglesway
More and more I wonder if you have studied the systematic theology of the Orthodox Trinitarian doctrine and are really familiar with what you believe.

"No, of course I haven't.  I don't let men tell me what to believe.  Otherwise, I'd probably be an atheist because I am surrounded by them.  All I know about any trinity theology is God in three persons, blessed trinity.  It is what I see all over the Bible.  That's why I believe it." (Molly)

"All I know about any trinity theology is God in three persons, blessed trinity.  It is what I see all over the Bible.  That's why I believe it."

Where in and through out the Bible do you find any statements [to what you believe] of a "trinity" of three persons, blessed trinity? I personally have searched my Bible and find no evidence of such a set of words. I have also found no verse where the Holy Spirit is called a person. When I read man's teaching on the subjected, it is chock full of such theories and words. Should you find such evidence, please show me where. I mean no offence. If you got "God in three persons, blessed trinity"
from your Bible it should not be a difficult task.  :HeartThrob: