Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[Molly]

Ok now look at this.

Before Jesus dies on the cross, he gives his human spirit to the Holy Spirit, the 'hands' of the Father, that Spirit who will raise him from the dead.  And he gives up the [Holy] Ghost.  This is how the Son of God dies.


And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Luke 23:46


But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also bring to life your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you.  Rom 8:11


I know you all think I'm nuts, but this stuff is really beautiful. :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

".... he gives his human spirit to the Holy Spirit, "?huh
Mat 27:50  Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Ghost...G4151  pneuma a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit
I believe Jesus gave up that last [ghost] breath as all human beings do when they die. All of this is the working of the power/energy of(out from) the God the Father. Where have you established an entity separate, not out from, the Father or the Holy Spirit to be a person?

As for, "I know you all think I'm nuts, but this stuff is really beautiful."
I do not think you are nuts, just caught up in what you have come to believe. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[Molly]

The Holy Spirit is the finger, the fingers, the hand of God, Micah.

He holds the holy power [dynamite, dunamis] in his hands that makes everything happen.





Then he said to me, "This is what the LORD says to Zerubbabel: It is not by force nor by strength, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of Heaven's Armies.  Zech 4:6

[Molly]

Isaiah 30:1 "Woe to the obstinate children," declares the LORD, "to those who carry out plans that are not mine, forming an alliance, but not by my Spirit, heaping sin upon sin;



Now watch what happens when a man indwelt by the Holy Spirit, with the double mantel of king and priest,  carries out plans by the Spirit of God.



8 When the king of Aram was at war with Israel, he would confer with his officers and say, "We will mobilize our forces at such and such a place."



9 But immediately Elisha, the man of God, would warn the king of Israel, "Do not go near that place, for the Arameans are planning to mobilize their troops there." 10 So the king of Israel would send word to the place indicated by the man of God. Time and again Elisha warned the king, so that he would be on the alert there.

11 The king of Aram became very upset over this. He called his officers together and demanded, "Which of you is the traitor? Who has been informing the king of Israel of my plans?"



12 "It's not us, my lord the king," one of the officers replied. "Elisha, the prophet in Israel, tells the king of Israel even the words you speak in the privacy of your bedroom!"



13 "Go and find out where he is," the king commanded, "so I can send troops to seize him."

And the report came back: "Elisha is at Dothan." 14 So one night the king of Aram sent a great army with many chariots and horses to surround the city.



15 When the servant of the man of God got up early the next morning and went outside, there were troops, horses, and chariots everywhere. "Oh, sir, what will we do now?" the young man cried to Elisha.



16 "Don't be afraid!" Elisha told him. "For there are more on our side than on theirs!" 17 Then Elisha prayed, "O Lord, open his eyes and let him see!" The Lord opened the young man's eyes, and when he looked up, he saw that the hillside around Elisha was filled with horses and chariots of fire.



18 As the Aramean army advanced toward him, Elisha prayed, "O Lord, please make them blind." So the Lord struck them with blindness as Elisha had asked.



19 Then Elisha went out and told them, "You have come the wrong way! This isn't the right city! Follow me, and I will take you to the man you are looking for." And he led them to the city of Samaria.



20 As soon as they had entered Samaria, Elisha prayed, "O Lord, now open their eyes and let them see." So the Lord opened their eyes, and they discovered that they were in the middle of Samaria.



21 When the king of Israel saw them, he shouted to Elisha, "My father, should I kill them? Should I kill them?"



22 "Of course not!" Elisha replied. "Do we kill prisoners of war? Give them food and drink and send them home again to their master."



23 So the king made a great feast for them and then sent them home to their master. After that, the Aramean raiders stayed away from the land of Israel.



--Judges 6

[micah7:9]

And? :dontknow:

[Molly]

Go take a look at the Hebrew for yourself. 




Deu 5:26  ForH3588 whoH4310 is there of allH3605 flesh,H1320 thatH834 hath heardH8085 the voiceH6963 of the livingH2416 GodH430 speakingH1696 out of the midstH4480 H8432 of the fire,H784 as weH3644 have, and lived?H2421



For who is there of all flesh, that has heard the voice of the living Gods [Chay Elohiym] speaking out of the middle of the fire, as we have, and lived?

Deuteronomy 5:26



"God" [Gods] [gods]


H430

אלהים


'ĕlôhıym


el-o-heem'


Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.







Deu 5:7 Thou shalt haveH1961 noneH3808 otherH312 godsH430 beforeH5921 H6440 me.


Thou shalt have no other [gods] elohiym before [me] My Faces.

Thou shalt have no other [gods] elohiym before [me] My Presences.




[before] "Me"

H6440


פּנים


pânıym


paw-neem'


Plural (but always used as a singular) of an unused noun (פּנה pâneh, paw-neh'; from 6437); the face (as the part that turns); used in a great variety of applications (literally and figuratively); also (with prepositional prefix) as a preposition (before, etc.): - + accept, a (be-) fore (-time), against, anger, X as (long as), at, + battle, + because (of), + beseech, countenance, edge, + employ, endure, + enquire, face, favour, fear of, for, forefront (-part), form (-er time, -ward), from, front, heaviness, X him (-self), + honourable, + impudent, + in, it, look [-eth] (-s), X me, + meet, X more than, mouth, of, off, (of) old (time), X on, open, + out of, over against, the partial, person, + please, presence, prospect, was purposed, by reason, of, + regard, right forth, + serve, X shewbread, sight, state, straight, + street, X thee, X them (-selves), through (+ -out), till, time (-s) past, (un-) to (-ward), + upon, upside (+ down), with (-in, + stand), X ye, X you.

[micah7:9]

Plural of H433; gods I mentioned this way back in the beginning, "plural" could 2 or 5 or 7, etc.
I believe if any thing it maybe 2.

pânıym Plural[/b] (but always used as a singular) the face, presence. [I believe singular is 1]

Can't find this one, "Thou shalt have no other [gods] elohiym before [me] My Faces."

Gen 3:8  And they hear the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of Jehovah God in the midst of the trees of the garden." (YLT)
Gen 3:8  And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.(KJV)

[Molly]

So let's take a look at an incidence of the voice of the Living God [Gods] [Elohiym] speaking out of the midst [middle] of the fire.








One day Moses was tending the flock of his father-in-law, Jethro, the priest of Midian. He led the flock far into the wilderness and came to Sinai, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord [YHWH] appeared to him in a blazing fire from the middle of a bush. Moses stared in amazement. Though the bush was engulfed in flames, it didn't burn up. 3 "This is amazing," Moses said to himself. "Why isn't that bush burning up? I must go see it."



4 When the Lord [YHWH] saw Moses coming to take a closer look, God [Elohiym] called to him from the middle of the bush, "Moses! Moses!"



"Here I am!" Moses replied.



5 "Do not come any closer," the Lord warned. "Take off your sandals, for you are standing on holy ground. 6 I am the God [Elohiym] of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." When Moses heard this, he covered his face because he was afraid to look at God.



--Ex 3

[micah7:9]

"So let's take a look at an incidence of the voice of the Living God [Gods] [Elohiym] speaking out of the midst [middle] of the fire."

Just what are you attempting to show? Every verse you have posted has shown the power of the Lord God, and I believe everyone of them. The burning bush that gave voice, was the Lord, Jesus Christ through the glory and power (Spirit) of the Lord God.

Joh 5:37  `And the Father who sent me Himself hath testified concerning me; ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor His appearance have ye seen;
:dsunny: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

23 And he took them, and sent them over the brook, and sent over that he had.

24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.

28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God [Elohiym] face to face, and my life is preserved.


--Gen 32



"Peniel"


H6439

פּניאל פּנוּאל

pı̂ny'êl


pen-oo-ale', pen-ee-ale'

From H6437 and H410; face of God; Penuel or Peniel, a place East of Jordan; also (as Penuel) the name of two Israelites: - Peniel, Penuel.







Here 'the face of God' looks like a man.  We see Hosea calls him the Angel.  Would that be the angel of the LORD?  Any member of the Chay Elohiym can be called "God."





No one has seen God the Father because he is spirit [although Jesus says if you've seen me, you've seen the Father], but the other two members of the trinity have been seen.





Yea, he wrestled with the Angel, and prevailed; he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spoke with us,  Hos 12:4





This verse in Hosea equates 'the man' in Gen 32 who wrestled with Jacob and the angel of the LORD [the Angel] with each other and with God.

[micah7:9]

Hos 12:4  Yea, he is a prince unto the Messenger, And he overcometh by weeping, And he maketh supplication to Him, At Bethel He doth find him, And there He doth speak with us,

Gen 32:24  And Jacob is left alone, and one wrestleth with him till the ascending of the dawn;
Gen 32:25  and he seeth that he is not able for him, and he cometh against the hollow of his thigh, and the hollow of Jacob's thigh is disjointed in his wrestling with him;
Gen 32:26  and he saith, `Send me away, for the dawn hath ascended:' and he saith, `I send thee not away, except thou hast blessed me.'
Gen 32:27  And he saith unto him, `What is thy name?' and he saith, `Jacob.'
Gen 32:28  And he saith, `Thy name is no more called Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast been a prince with God and with men, and dost prevail.'
Gen 32:29  And Jacob asketh, and saith, `Declare, I pray thee, thy name;' and he saith, `Why is this, thou askest for My name?' and He blesseth him there.
Gen 32:30  And Jacob calleth the name of the place Peniel: for `I have seen God face unto face, and my life is delivered;'
Here have again the power/energy(spirit) of the Lord God at work. And most certainly Jacob would realize it was God who did this thing. Jacob believed and trusted the only God he knew so yes he would give God the credit.

I do not believe Jesus lied, do you?
Joh 5:37  `And the Father who sent me Himself hath testified concerning me; ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor His appearance have ye seen;

[Molly]

17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

--Ex 33





When the LORD is showing Moses His glory, all three members of the trinity are there.



The rock and the cleft in the rock is Jesus.



And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.  1 Cor 10:4



[Remember the song, Rock of Ages, cleft for me, Let me hide myself in thee]





The hand of YHWH  covering Moses' eyes as He passes by is the Holy Spirit, the hand of God.

[Molly]

Hos 12:4  Yea, he is a prince unto the Messenger, And he overcometh by weeping, And he maketh supplication to Him, At Bethel He doth find him, And there He doth speak with us,

Gen 32:24  And Jacob is left alone, and one wrestleth with him till the ascending of the dawn;
Gen 32:25  and he seeth that he is not able for him, and he cometh against the hollow of his thigh, and the hollow of Jacob's thigh is disjointed in his wrestling with him;
Gen 32:26  and he saith, `Send me away, for the dawn hath ascended:' and he saith, `I send thee not away, except thou hast blessed me.'
Gen 32:27  And he saith unto him, `What is thy name?' and he saith, `Jacob.'
Gen 32:28  And he saith, `Thy name is no more called Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast been a prince with God and with men, and dost prevail.'
Gen 32:29  And Jacob asketh, and saith, `Declare, I pray thee, thy name;' and he saith, `Why is this, thou askest for My name?' and He blesseth him there.
Gen 32:30  And Jacob calleth the name of the place Peniel: for `I have seen God face unto face, and my life is delivered;'
Here have again the power/energy(spirit) of the Lord God at work. And most certainly Jacob would realize it was God who did this thing. Jacob believed and trusted the only God he knew so yes he would give God the credit.

I do not believe Jesus lied, do you?
Joh 5:37  `And the Father who sent me Himself hath testified concerning me; ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor His appearance have ye seen;

The LORD and The Lord and  the LORD God and God and the angel of the LORD are talking to men all through the Old Testament, Micah.   

Why don't YOU tell me who that was doing the talking.

I'm waiting....

[micah7:9]

"The hand of YHWH  covering Moses' eyes is the Holy Spirit, the hand of God."

I'll need some references for that one along with "Thou shalt have no other [gods] elohiym before [me] My Faces."

Yes, I understand through the Spirit that Jesus is the rock
"....and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen." So in reality he did not "see" the Lord God. Correct?
"The LORD and The Lord and  the LORD God and God are talking to men all through the Old Testament, Micah.   Yes. Amen!

Why don't YOU tell me who that was doing the talking.

I'm waiting.... "
Iv'e told you many times, but you won't hear it. :sigh:

[Molly]

Don't cop out now, Micah.

You told me no one has heard the Father's voice or seen his face.

So who were all these characters calling themselves LORD and LORD God and God and so forth speaking to men?

I'm waiting...

[eaglesway]

So let's take a look at an incidence of the voice of the Living God [Gods] [Elohiym] speaking out of the midst [middle] of the fire.








One day Moses was tending the flock of his father-in-law, Jethro, the priest of Midian. He led the flock far into the wilderness and came to Sinai, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord [YHWH] appeared to him in a blazing fire from the middle of a bush. Moses stared in amazement. Though the bush was engulfed in flames, it didn't burn up. 3 "This is amazing," Moses said to himself. "Why isn't that bush burning up? I must go see it."



4 When the Lord [YHWH] saw Moses coming to take a closer look, God [Elohiym] called to him from the middle of the bush, "Moses! Moses!"



"Here I am!" Moses replied.



5 "Do not come any closer," the Lord warned. "Take off your sandals, for you are standing on holy ground. 6 I am the God [Elohiym] of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." When Moses heard this, he covered his face because he was afraid to look at God.



--Ex 3

Elohyim means "mighty ones" and is used to reference angels and men, judges, the gods of the heathen and the God of Israel. It is not exclusively a description of or name or reference to a triune God(not to say it cannot be interpreted that way in context- it is just not a good proof text). It occurs over 2500 times in the OT. It is not a worthy proof of either/any particular view of the nature of God, because it is only meaningful within the context of its use over the entire 2500 occurences- and who wants to do that much work :o) certainly not me- but I have checked enough of them to know(for myself) it is not a unique name of God.

And please, lets all keep this in the tone of a discussion- nobody is going to hell over this HAHAHAHAH ;o)

[mplsfitter539]

Molly I believe you like to qualify this word by Jesus Joh 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
That Jesus was still a human and that explains how the Father is greater, perhaps there maybe something in that. Well how about  this
Joh_14:16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh_14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh_15:26  But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh_16:7  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Jesus had to depart before the another Comforter(Jesus was the first Comforter) would come, why?
Because Jesus had to die to become the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the only man to date that is truly born again of the Spirit(wind) and He did not become that Holy Spirit until He died and rose from the dead and He returned to His disciples as the Comforter....the Holy Spirit....Jesus Christ.
Here I dentifies Himself, Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me......" even the Spirit of truth, ...."

[/b][/color]
Miach that is bar far the best explanation of why Yashua had to die. Thank you this is very enlightening.

[jabcat]

I personally don't see it that way.  It reminds me of the Oneness Pentecostal/Apostolic doctrine, i.e., their literal version of "oneness".  I don't believe the scriptures teach at all that Jesus had to die to "become the Holy Spirit". 

[jabcat]

Paul, speaking to believers said; 

The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.  Rm. 8:11

[jabcat]

In my limited understanding, I believe if any of us are not as yet born of the Spirit, then we're still "lost in our trespasses and sins" - and will still at some point need to be given the faith to believe on Jesus as our Savior.

I don't see it as scriptural that everyone is already saved/reconciled to God.   Paul said "be you reconciled to God..whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved".   

On the other hand, I also don't see it as scriptural that no one is yet saved/spiritually reborn.  The apostles said "believe..confess, you will be saved..and then by grace you are saved through [the gift of] faith".      I don't believe it's a message of death and only future hope.  I believe it's a message of Life given, grace received - "Christ in you" -  and then a looking toward our full inheritance - "the hope of glory".     Saved now (spiritually reborn) then fully redeemed (given a spiritual body of immortality) at His coming.

To believers:   

Ephesians 2:1    And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

[Molly]

Paul, speaking to believers said; 

The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.  Rm. 8:11

The Spirit of God raised Jesus from the dead.

God raised Jesus from the dead.

Therefore, the Spirit of God is God.

[Molly]

I heard this great story and would like to share it because I think it sums up the Bible.


A very rich man lived in a mansion in a city.  In his mansion, he had a fabulous art gallery, replete with the most prized paintings in the world, Rembrandt, Monet, Picasso, etc.   He also had a beloved young son who lived with him.  The son would often go for walks around the city, meeting and talking to people.  In his walks, the son met a beggar, and they became fast friends.  The son would always stop to talk to the beggar whenever he was in that part of town.  He told the beggar about his father's love for art and about the wonderful gallery in his home.


Time went by, and the son stopped visiting the beggar.  The beggar finally inquired and found out the son had died.  He was heartbroken that he had lost his young friend, and, knowing his father loved art, the beggar pooled all his pennies together and went out and bought some painting supplies.  He then painted the best picture he could of his friend from memory.  He went to the father's mansion and gave the picture to the guard at the gate, telling the guard about his deep friendship with the son and how he knew the father loved art.  He hoped the father would find this picture of his son comforting.


More time went by, and the beggar heard the father had died and that his paintings were being auctioned off.  He decided to go to the auction and see if the father had hung his picture in the gallery.  Once again, he pooled all his pennies together and bought a used suit and went to the auction.  All of the city's most famous socialites were there, drinking wine and scrutinizing the paintings with their spyglasses.  There in the center of the gallery, the beggar was pleased to note his painting hanging in a place of prominence despite its simplicity.


Soon, it was time for the auction.  The crowd gathered and grew hushed at the auctioneer's first announcement.   'There is a stipulation in the will,' he said,' that this painting must be auctioned first.' There was a disappointed moan from the crowd as he pulled out the beggar's simple painting of the owner's son.  No one bid on it.  Finally, the beggar reached into his pocket and pulled out all the change he had and happily bought the painting.  Then, the excitement mounting, the auctioneer announced, 'There is another stipulation in the will.  Whoever bought the first painting gets the whole gallery!'

[eaglesway]

Beautifull :o)

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:    :angelharp:

[mplsfitter539]

Don't cop out now, Micah.

You told me no one has heard the Father's voice or seen his face.

So who were all these characters calling themselves LORD and LORD God and God and so forth speaking to men?

I'm waiting...

That would be Yashua/Salvation it says so here:
43 Jesus responded, "Stop criticizing me! 44 People cannot come to me unless the Father who sent me brings them to me. I will bring these people back to life on the last day. 45 The prophets wrote, 'God will teach everyone.' Those who do what they have learned from the Father come to me. 46 I'm saying that no one has seen the Father. Only the one who is from God has seen the Father.