Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[dajomaco]

Watchman Nee believed in the verbal inspiration of the Bible and that the Bible is God's holy Word. He believed that God is triune—Father, Son, and Spirit—distinctly three, yet fully one, co-existing and coinhering each other from eternity to eternity. He believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, even God Himself, incarnated as a man with both the human and the divine life, that He died on the cross to accomplish redemption, that he rose bodily from the dead on the third day, that He ascended into heaven and was enthroned, crowned with glory, and made the Lord of all, and that He will return the second time to receive His followers, to save Israel, and to establish His millennial kingdom on the earth. He believed that every person who believes in Jesus Christ will be forgiven by God, washed by His redeeming blood, justified by faith, regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and saved by grace. Such a believer is a child of God and a member of the Body of Christ. He also believed that the destiny of every believer is to be an integral part of the church, which is the Body of Christ and the house of God.[7].

---Wikipedia


This is what I believe, too, but I didn't have to spend 20 years in prison for my beliefs.  He did.

The interesting think about Watchman Nee is that he is the poster child for
for arbitrary excommunication.

Although being approved by God to preach.
Watchman Nee was not approved by North American evangelicals.
The Christian research institute labeled him and his movement a cult.
They said that Watchmen Nee had the wrong description of the Trinity.
They reasoned if you had the wrong idea about the trinity you had a false Jesus.

After years and years of explanations and written studies of the Trinity
with other North American evangelicals .
The C.R.I. have taken him off of their cult list and stamped him as an official
Trinitarian.
Accordingly we can let our children join his home church movement and they won't have to have shaved heads.

Spiritually blind people need labels so they can decide.
Every time they hear some one say
" the Spirit of God has shown me this or the Spirit of God has shown me that."

If they can put a label on it then they can dismiss
the idea, that some one else sees and they don't.
 
You're a what?
A person that sees U.R. (well I don't have listen to you. You have a false Jesus.)

You're a what ?
A person that sees a Trinity (well I don't have listen to you. You have a false Jesus.)

You're a what?
A person that does not see a trinity (well I don't have listen to you. You have a false Jesus.)

You're a what ?
A person that does not have a creed. (well I don't have listen to you. You have a false Jesus.)

  Labels are used to separate in to categories .

The different posts and opinions are very helpful for me
as I look in the different jars with different labels I see the bringing
together as Love.
All the jars are different, the miraculous part is making them all ONE   

[micah7:9]

I like that. :dsunny:

[marie glen]

"Holy" - Strong's when used with "Ghost or Spirit" #40 - hagios - "terrible, awful, sacred, pure"

"Ghost or Spirit" - Strong's #4151 pneuma - "current of air, breath" (according to "breathed into & became living/alive" to me, spirit or ghost = life

If the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary and she was with child, the Father is the Son's Father.. I can't personally see the Holy Spirit as a 'separate' entity with own will and personality.. but as the power, essence and presence of God the Father..
I'm thinking this topic would take an examining of every single "Holy Spirit" and "Holy Ghost" reference... but here's a few that caught my eye:

Amplified Version:
Matthew 1:18
..before they came together, she was found to be pregnant [through the power] of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 1:30
..for that which is conceived in her is of (from, out of) the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:35
Then the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you [like a shining cloud]; and so the holy (pure, sinless) Thing (Offspring) which shall be born of you will be called the Son of God.

Luke 3:22
And the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came from heaven, saying, You are My Son, My Beloved! In You I am well pleased and find delight!

Acts 2:4
And they were all filled (diffused throughout their souls) with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other (different, foreign) languages (tongues), as the Spirit kept giving them clear and loud expression [in each tongue in appropriate words].
-- [1 Corinthians 15:28
However, when everything is subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also subject Himself to [the Father] Who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all [be everything to everyone, supreme, the indwelling and controlling factor of life. & Ephesians 1:23
...the fullness of Him Who fills all in all ..Who makes everything complete, and Who fills everything everywhere with Himself.]

Acts 4:8
Then Peter, [because he was] filled with [and controlled by] the Holy Spirit..

Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses of these things, and the Holy Spirit is also, Whom God has bestowed on those who obey Him. - But, interlinear lexicon says it this way, w/o the "whom" we are witnesses of these things, and the Spirit Holy, which gave God to the ones obeying Him

Acts 6:5
And the suggestion pleased the whole assembly, and they selected Stephen, a man full of faith (a strong and welcome belief that Jesus is the Messiah) and full of and controlled by the Holy Spirit,

Acts 13:2
While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, Separate now for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.

Acts 13:52
And the disciples were continually filled [throughout their souls] with joy and the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:3
For God has done what the Law could not do, [its power] being weakened by the flesh [the entire nature of man without the Holy Spirit].

1 Corinthians 2:10
Yet to us God has unveiled and revealed them by and through His Spirit,

1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have not received the spirit [that belongs to] the world, but the [Holy] Spirit Who is from God, [given to us] that we might realize and comprehend and appreciate the gifts [of divine favor and blessing so freely and lavishly] bestowed on us by God.
--but again, the side by side w/ the greek, leaves out the "who" - but the [Holy] Spirit from God,

1 Corinthians 6:11
..you were consecrated (set apart, hallowed), and you were justified [pronounced righteous, by trusting] in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the [Holy] Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 12:9
To another [wonder-working] faith by the same [Holy] Spirit, to another the extraordinary powers of healing by the one Spirit;

1 Corinthians 14:37
..filled with and governed by the Holy Spirit of God

Revelation 3:22
He who is able to hear, let him listen to and heed what the [Holy] Spirit says to the assemblies (churches).

Revelation 4:5
Out from the throne came flashes of lightning and rumblings and peals of thunder, and in front of the throne seven blazing torches burned, which are the seven Spirits of God [the sevenfold Holy Spirit];

But, I'm thinking this topic would take an examining of every single "Holy Spirit" and "Holy Ghost" reference...
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=holy+ghost&searchtype=phrase&version1=9&language1=en&spanbegin=47&spanend=73

2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace (favor and spiritual blessing) of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the presence and fellowship (the communion and sharing together, and participation) in the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen (so be it). :girlheart:

[micah7:9]

I like that marie glen> :dsunny:

[Molly]

Hi Marie,

Take a look at this article from Let Us Reason ministries.

Tell me what you think.

Also, do you have any personal experience with the Holy Spirit as a person?




THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON

The qualifications for a person are that they have

1. A mind - able to think and act upon their thinking

2. their own will - self identity

3. and emotions - able to react cognitively

As personal human beings we all have these qualities. Another quality of being personal is that one has life.  A person is identified as a self-conscious being, cognizant of its own existence and the existence of others who also have a self-identity. A will indicates the ability to think, to reason, a choice to act, having desire these are things we associate with self consciousness which is exclusive to Persons. All of these qualities the Holy Spirit has, just as the Son and Father. We find the Holy Spirit is the executive of the Father. He is co-creator of the universe, The author of divine Scripture, the generator of Christ's humanity, the regenerator of the believer and the distributor of eternal life, for He also eternally exists.

The Holy Spirit is identified as a Person by John, using in the Greek the masculine ekeinos in Jn.16:13. The Holy Spirit is presented as a personal being with a self-identity different from both the Father, and the Son. As the Father and Jesus make this distinction  when speaking of Him. He the Holy Spirit says "Separate Barnabas and Saul to me;" He also is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2.

The Jehovah Witnesses Holy Spirit is not God, but a force like in Buddhism. But it was not always so, like all their doctrines they depart from any kind of semblance of orthodoxy. Lets look at how they describe a spirit being ,"Is the Devil a personification or a person? ... Can an unintelligent 'force' carry on a conversation with a person? ... only an intelligent person could. . . . 'Every quality, every action, which can indicate personality, is attributed to him in language which cannot be explained away."' (Awake 12/8/1973, p. 27) "Nothing in this and similar texts involves the thought of a personal Holy Spirit . . . (Studies in the Scripture , Vol. 5, p. 244)

The main purpose of the Holy Spirit was to come alongside the believer, to do what Jesus did when he was here physically, but mainly from the inside of us. He is called the comforter, this would be a hard thing to do if the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force.   The helper paracletos is used for the Spirit in the NT. by Jesus. This was used in Greek almost always of persons. Here the Lord calls him our helper, one that comes alongside. Even with the other titles attributed to him this still does not change who he is behind those titles. He (the Spirit) says "separate Barnabas and Saul to me" he also is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2. If the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force as Jehovah's Witnesses claim, or a mode as in Oneness Pentecostalism, then He cannot be another of the same kind. Jesus is a person, if the Spirit is another comforter this requires the Spirit to be a person also. How could He duplicate all the things of Jesus unless He is a person? The helper in Gr. paracletos, is used to describe the Spirit in the New Testament by Jesus. This was used in Greek almost always of persons. Here the Lord calls him our helper, one that comes alongside. When we speak of person it does not necessitate form but personality and identity.

Looking at the attributes of the Spirit we find no difference in His nature, function and communion with the believer than with Jesus. Rom.8:27 He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the spirit is, because he makes intercession for the saints," 1 Cor.12:11: "But the one and the same spirit works all these things dividing to each one as He wills. Acts 8.29: The Spirit spoke to Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it." Rev 2-3: "Let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches" Rev 22.17: The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" If the Spirit is impersonal so is the Bride.

The activities of the Spirit are all descriptions of what persons do. Many groups come to the irrational and illogical conclusion that he is only a force used by the Father to accomplish his purposes. This power the Jehovah's Witnesses claim is impersonal like an artificial intelligence that will accomplish Gods will in our lives.  Romans 8.16: The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. To make the Holy Spirit something other than a personality a being (a force?) This means that we are indwelt with a human non personality. This means we have no inner nature that rules over our body, that all we are is our body just like the evolutionists say.

Paul uses the spirit Gr. pneuma as The masculine pronoun He , giving him identity. The Holy Spirit is portrayed as a personal being with an identity different then both the Father and the Son. He is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2.

As we understand that the nature of the Father and Son and Spirit have always been the same, they are all eternal. They all share in common the same essence, which is God. They also share in the divine name of Yahweh. All the attributes of God that are held in common with the Father and Son are shared also with the Holy Spirit.

He has omnipresence Ps.139:7-10 David writes whether he goes up to heaven or into hell below God is there, he cannot escape his Spirit. He is omnipresent, everywhere since he would dwell in every believer simultaneously.( 3 omnis are described in this passage omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience all attributes of God). The essence of the Holy Spirit is that he is omniscient- all knowing 1 Cor.2:10-11: "For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God." Only God can comprehend God himself, he knows things of God and things we do not know of ourselves.

There are scriptures that refer to the Holy Spirit as being the "Spirit of Jesus", the "Spirit of Christ", or "Spirit of the Son" "the Spirit of the Father" If the Son and Father are persons then this certainly does not make the Spirit a non person.

Heb.9:14 he is called the eternal Spirit. Because he is in us, the Scripture equates him as God in us (Rom.8:9-10, 1Cor.3:16, 6:19, Jn.14:23, 15:4, 1 Jn.4:12-13,15) He is omnipresent since he would dwell in every believer simultaneously and he is called God 1 Cor.6:19. He is omniscient 2 Cor.2:10 "the Spirit searches the deep things of God." Only God can know the infinite things contained in himself. Luke 12.12: for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say." I Cor. 2.13: "This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit," How is this possible without language or communication.

Rom.8:27 He has a mind (proving he is personal). Rom.15:30 he has love which only those with intelligence and personality express. Eph.4:30 he is grieved. Heb.10:29 he can be insulted. He can be blasphemed. Mt.12:32 Tells us all sins committed against the Son will be forgiven but the sin against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This certainly affirms he is neither a force nor a mere creature. Only an eternal sin cannot be forgiven, which means it is against the eternal God.

John 14.16: And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another comforter to be with you forever -- the Spirit of truth ."

John 14.26: But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 16.7: "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." Not it to you! To the disciples who were grieving, if the Spirit were an impersonal force it would no way comfort or replace a real person. Imagine saying don't worry you'll have electricity or a force!

Jn.14:26, 1Cor.2:13 He teaches us Gal.5:18, Rom.8:9 he is our guide. These are important functions of someone who is alive, with emotion and personal interaction. How can he do this for all believers unless he has the omnipresence and omniscience that God has. Rom.8:26-27 he groans along with us, he intercedes for us to the Father ( this gives him personality and feelings) 1 Thess.1:6 he Gives us joy. He also hears from the Father Jn.16:13 and he is able to testify of the Son Jn.15:26. The Spirit's role is to convince unbelievers of sin, righteousness, and judgment, this means intelligence. The Spirit is also attributed to being the author of Holy Scripture which gives him communication skills also part of intelligence. In Rev.14:13 we find the Spirit speaks from heaven saying "write." All these characteristics give personal identity to the Holy Spirit, which makes him a personal and distinct from the father and the Son.

In the OT. he is called the Spirit of the Lord (Yahweh) Judges 3:10, 6:34, 11:29, 13:25, 2 Sam. 23:2, 1 Kings 18:12 Isa.11:2, 40:13 He is called the Spirit of God (Elohim) Gen.1:2, 1 Sam. 19:20,23. 2 Sam. 23:2;1 Cor. 3:16, 7:40 the Spirit of our God 1 Cor.6:11, His Spirit Num.11:29, My Spirit Gen.6:3 Spirit of the living God 2 Cor.3:3, He is called the Spirit of the Father Mt.10:20. The Spirit of the Lord God Isa.61:1 If the Spirit is God (which he is) then his name would also be called Yahweh just as the Father and the Son are. Since they are all God they all share in common the same name. In the NT. He is called the Spirit of grace Heb.10:24, The Spirit of life Rom.8:2, of truth Jn.14:17, Holiness Rom. 1:4, Spirit of Glory 1 Pt.4:14 showing he has the same glory shared with both the Father and the Son. These are descriptive of his attributes which all three persons share in. He is called God 1 Cor.6:19. It is Paul that states we are the temple of God because the Holy Spirit dwells in us (Rom. 8:9, 8:11, 1 Cor.3:16, 6:19) 2 Cor.6:16 "For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: " I will dwell in them and walk among them. I will be their God, and they shall be My people." If God says he will be in us, and it is the Holy Spirit in us, doesn't that make him God? God is personal.

He speaks to man: Isa.6:8-9 "Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I! Send me." And He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.' Paul in the NT. applies this scripture giving the credit to the Holy Spirit for saying it.  Isa.59:21 the Spirit gave the men the words.

Mark 13.11: Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

Acts 1.16: and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus

In Acts 5 Peter confronted Annanias and Sapphira said you have lied to the Holy Spirit vs.3 he then says you have not lied to man but to God v.4 in reference to his first rebuke. Since Jesus said God is Spirit in Jn.4 this should settle any conflict. The Holy Spirit's work is evident from creation onward, there is no reason not to come the conclusion that the Spirit is God. He makes Jesus known just as Jesus made the Father known.

Acts 8.29: The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."

Acts 10:19: "While Peter thought about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are seeking you."

Acts 11:12: "Then the Spirit told me to go with them, doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered the man's house."

Acts 13.2: "While they were worshipping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

Acts 28:25-27: "The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, "saying, 'Go to this people and say: "Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you will see, and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them."

I Tim 4.1: "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits

Heb.3.7: "So, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you hear his voice."

Rev 14:13: "Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "amen," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

Rev. 22.17: "The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" Both have intelligence.

All of these Scriptures prove that the Bible upholds the Spirit as a personal being every bit as personal and intelligent as God.

The Spirit is also attributed to being the author of Holy Scripture which gives him communication skills, also part of intelligence. In Rev.14:13 we find the Spirit speaks from heaven saying "write". All these characteristics give personal identity to the Holy Spirit which makes him a person. Rev 2-3: "Let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches" this is repeated 6 times after to each church.

It is the Spirit that brings one to recognize who Christ is. To fight and refuse this is to ignore the testimony of Jesus. If one thinks it is a force that that is revealing the Son, than this would automatically change who the Son is as well.

The Spirit has a different position functioning in a submissive role to Christ. Just as Christ was in a submissive position to the Father on Earth not acting independently. Likewise the Spirit does the same, taking a subordinate role to both Christ and the Father when he is sent to earth ( Jn.16:13). This is not a essential subordination of nature but in position and function. His purpose is not to bring attention to himself but to the Son.

[mplsfitter539]

Find this article here: http://www.lightofmashiach.org/one.html

God is One, Not A Trinity
Ellen Kavanaugh

    "Hear O Israel, YHVH is G-d, YHVH is ONE." (Deut 6:4)

I do not subscribe to trinitarian/tri-unitarian doctrines which attempt to define God as three Persons in One. YHVH is One.

I am convinced one reason why a trinitarian doctrine was incorporated into Christianity was to explain the 'person' of Yeshua; to explain how he could be God. That God could take on human form as an earthly Messiah isn't difficult to accept -- afterall -- He'd previously supped with Abraham (Gen 18) and He had wrestled with Jacob (Gen 32) *while also in human form*. Our powerful God can manifest Himself in many forms; there is no need for these weak doctrines that attempt to sub-divide the godhead in attempts to explain "how" He does it. Trinitarians start dividing up the godhead so that the Father is one person, the Son/Yeshua is a second person, and then the Ruach (spirit) is a third person. Scripture never says God is divided up into three persons! The word 'trinity' isn't even Scriptural. Trinity is a manmade doctrine that borrows heavily from pagan sources. Scripture tells us God is One *not* three. Ultimately the trinity doctrine seeks to limit our heavenly Father to merely one-third of the godhead. Isn't it easier to just accept Scripture at Its Word? We have One God, and He can manifest Himself in any form He chooses without needing to be subdivided to fit the manmade doctrines.

[marie glen]

Hi Molly, :smile:

I have experience with the Holy Spirit of God, as the Presence and Power of God.. and the one who leads into all truth.. a sense of clarity and understanding.. and of course, much more..

I think for instance the Jehovah Witnesses believe the Spirit is a power but not God Himself or His Presence with us, nor a consciousness at all.. Nor perhaps as the Spirit which indwells us and will fill all things.. Although not being a JW I could be wrong about that. I think of the Holy Spirit as having and being a consciousness, as I think the Holy/Pure Spirit of God is His Presence with us who believe..

I'm afraid I stick pretty much with almost only the Word, I figure if I can't find the answer in the Word, it can't be found..

The article you posted was interesting but as far as my perception, doesn't speak to what I think, as I do think the Spirit of God has consciousness, etc, as I think the Spirit of God is God.. just as the spirit of me, would be.. me. And the spirit of you.. would be, you.

What I don't believe is that the Spirit of God  (or the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost) is a third "person" of the trinity or of a three in one.. but that the Holy Spirit is the Holy/Pure Spirit of God.. That the plan is for God to fill all things, and be all in all.. that God Himself will fill all.. Which of course started first with Jesus, the Son and "firstborn of all creation" the one in whom all things are being gathered. God made Jesus the cornerstone, capstone and, or foundation of all creation. God will not have to do any babysitting. He is creating something far better than that. But maybe I'm straying.. As I read through the references in the concordance, especially the ones I posted, it seemed clear to me that God Himself indwells us and will fill all in all.. (I think ppl fear God Himself.. that's why many churches worship only Jesus saying the Son is the Father.. and He prayed to...? and perhaps seeing His Spirit as another, has perhaps for some this same basis, not understanding that the emotions of the Father in the Old Testament has to do with the acts of barbaric mankind. What Father worth His salt wouldn't be exactly as angry as He was when they were placing live babes into fire as sacrifices to 'the gods' and the sex rites which brought some of those babes about.. albeit with a whole lotta patience, mercy and forbearance.. forgiveness.. I know I could never be so patient nor kind, nor forgiving, wipe 'em all out, start over!!)

I believe the Father is the Father and the Son is the Son.. in the God family and Kingdom, I see two.. Though JBerton.. may be right that the bride will become part of that family, albeit still lesser.. I think of this whole thing, God's intent - through life as we presently know it - to be the creating of God's own family (of many beautiful branches) sorry straying :laughing7: ..

As you may see I believe the Holy Spirit of God has a mind, a will, self identity, and emotions.. I believe the Holy Ghost is God/God's very Presence with us, and indwelling the believer.. the same force which rose Jesus from the grave.. and parted the Red Sea.. I don't even believe we can understand His Word without His Spirit showing it to us..

Do you, Molly, think of the Holy Spirit as a third One.. that there is the Father, the Son and the Spirit?

blessings, :smile: :hiya:
glenda marie 

[marie glen]

Find this article here: http://www.lightofmashiach.org/one.html

God is One, Not A Trinity
Ellen Kavanaugh

    "Hear O Israel, YHVH is G-d, YHVH is ONE." (Deut 6:4)

I do not subscribe to trinitarian/tri-unitarian doctrines which attempt to define God as three Persons in One. YHVH is One.

I am convinced one reason why a trinitarian doctrine was incorporated into Christianity was to explain the 'person' of Yeshua; to explain how he could be God. That God could take on human form as an earthly Messiah isn't difficult to accept -- afterall -- He'd previously supped with Abraham (Gen 18) and He had wrestled with Jacob (Gen 32) *while also in human form*. Our powerful God can manifest Himself in many forms; there is no need for these weak doctrines that attempt to sub-divide the godhead in attempts to explain "how" He does it. Trinitarians start dividing up the godhead so that the Father is one person, the Son/Yeshua is a second person, and then the Ruach (spirit) is a third person. Scripture never says God is divided up into three persons! The word 'trinity' isn't even Scriptural. Trinity is a manmade doctrine that borrows heavily from pagan sources. Scripture tells us God is One *not* three. Ultimately the trinity doctrine seeks to limit our heavenly Father to merely one-third of the godhead. Isn't it easier to just accept Scripture at Its Word? We have One God, and He can manifest Himself in any form He chooses without needing to be subdivided to fit the manmade doctrines.

Hi! :smile:   I believe God is One.. and I believe He has a Son (because that's how He chose to do it)

blessings!

[Molly]

Hi Marie,

Yes, I have long experienced the Holy Spirit as a person, although I didn't know who he was.  I thought maybe an angel.  Then I thought maybe Jesus himself.

Only on reading the scripture did I realize it was the Holy Spirit.

Like everyone has said, doctrine doesn't necessarily impact our salvation, but I feel that it so greatly adds to the quality of our experience with God, that it is worth exploring.

Keep an eye out, Marie, it's possible he might reveal himself to you some day as a person.

He's always with us--Helper, Comforter, Teacher, Revelator, Companion, and Guide.

[marie glen]

I like that marie glen> :dsunny:

    :ty: :smile:   

[marie glen]

He's always with us--Helper, Comforter, Teacher, Revelator, Companion, and Guide.

   That I agree with! :))

[marie glen]

Hi Marie,



Keep an eye out, Marie, it's possible he might reveal himself to you some day as a person.

Hi again, Molly,

          I have to think you mean perhaps I may experience Him as a person-separate or other than God.. as of course I have experienced Him as a person.. a living being.. :laughing7:

[Molly]

Find this article here: http://www.lightofmashiach.org/one.html

God is One, Not A Trinity
Ellen Kavanaugh

    "Hear O Israel, YHVH is G-d, YHVH is ONE." (Deut 6:4)

I do not subscribe to trinitarian/tri-unitarian doctrines which attempt to define God as three Persons in One. YHVH is One.

I am convinced one reason why a trinitarian doctrine was incorporated into Christianity was to explain the 'person' of Yeshua; to explain how he could be God. That God could take on human form as an earthly Messiah isn't difficult to accept -- afterall -- He'd previously supped with Abraham (Gen 18) and He had wrestled with Jacob (Gen 32) *while also in human form*. Our powerful God can manifest Himself in many forms; there is no need for these weak doctrines that attempt to sub-divide the godhead in attempts to explain "how" He does it. Trinitarians start dividing up the godhead so that the Father is one person, the Son/Yeshua is a second person, and then the Ruach (spirit) is a third person. Scripture never says God is divided up into three persons! The word 'trinity' isn't even Scriptural. Trinity is a manmade doctrine that borrows heavily from pagan sources. Scripture tells us God is One *not* three. Ultimately the trinity doctrine seeks to limit our heavenly Father to merely one-third of the godhead. Isn't it easier to just accept Scripture at Its Word? We have One God, and He can manifest Himself in any form He chooses without needing to be subdivided to fit the manmade doctrines.

Here is the scripture from E-sword KJV


Deu 6:4 Hear,H8085 O Israel:H3478 The LORDH3068 our GodH430 is oneH259 LORD:H306





You see that word, 'one.'   Maybe you missed my post on this.  That word 'one' is not the numerical number one.



It is the same word used in Gen 2 about Adam and his wife--the two shall become one flesh.



"one"

H259

אחד

'echâd
ekh-awd'

A numeral from H258;] properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.



The root word H258 means 'to unify.'




It says, btw, the LORD our God is one LORD, with LORD meaning YAHWEH and God meaning 'ĕlôhı̂ym.

[Molly]

Hi Marie,



Keep an eye out, Marie, it's possible he might reveal himself to you some day as a person.

Hi again, Molly,

          I have to think you mean perhaps I may experience Him as a person-separate or other than God.. as of course I have experienced Him as a person.. a living being.. :laughing7:

Oh!  Then you already know the Holy Spirit is a person and that He is God.  And, you know He is the Holy Spirit because Jesus told us he would send the Holy Spirit to us and told us what His function would be in our lives.

[micah7:9]

Molly I believe you like to qualify this word by Jesus Joh 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
That Jesus was still a human and that explains how the Father is greater, perhaps there maybe something in that. Well how about  this
Joh_14:16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh_14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh_15:26  But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh_16:7  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Jesus had to depart before the another Comforter(Jesus was the first Comforter) would come, why?
Because Jesus had to die to become the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the only man to date that is truly born again of the Spirit(wind) and He did not become that Holy Spirit until He died and rose from the dead and He returned to His disciples as the Comforter....the Holy Spirit....Jesus Christ.
Here I dentifies Himself, Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me......" even the Spirit of truth, ...."

[micah7:9]

Find this article here: http://www.lightofmashiach.org/one.html

God is One, Not A Trinity
Ellen Kavanaugh

    "Hear O Israel, YHVH is G-d, YHVH is ONE." (Deut 6:4)

I do not subscribe to trinitarian/tri-unitarian doctrines which attempt to define God as three Persons in One. YHVH is One.

I am convinced one reason why a trinitarian doctrine was incorporated into Christianity was to explain the 'person' of Yeshua; to explain how he could be God. That God could take on human form as an earthly Messiah isn't difficult to accept -- afterall -- He'd previously supped with Abraham (Gen 18) and He had wrestled with Jacob (Gen 32) *while also in human form*. Our powerful God can manifest Himself in many forms; there is no need for these weak doctrines that attempt to sub-divide the godhead in attempts to explain "how" He does it. Trinitarians start dividing up the godhead so that the Father is one person, the Son/Yeshua is a second person, and then the Ruach (spirit) is a third person. Scripture never says God is divided up into three persons! The word 'trinity' isn't even Scriptural. Trinity is a manmade doctrine that borrows heavily from pagan sources. Scripture tells us God is One *not* three. Ultimately the trinity doctrine seeks to limit our heavenly Father to merely one-third of the godhead. Isn't it easier to just accept Scripture at Its Word? We have One God, and He can manifest Himself in any form He chooses without needing to be subdivided to fit the manmade doctrines.

Again :iagree: :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

Hi Molly, :smile:

I have experience with the Holy Spirit of God, as the Presence and Power of God.. and the one who leads into all truth.. a sense of clarity and understanding.. and of course, much more..

I think for instance the Jehovah Witnesses believe the Spirit is a power but not God Himself or His Presence with us, nor a consciousness at all.. Nor perhaps as the Spirit which indwells us and will fill all things.. Although not being a JW I could be wrong about that. I think of the Holy Spirit as having and being a consciousness, as I think the Holy/Pure Spirit of God is His Presence with us who believe..

I'm afraid I stick pretty much with almost only the Word, I figure if I can't find the answer in the Word, it can't be found..

The article you posted was interesting but as far as my perception, doesn't speak to what I think, as I do think the Spirit of God has consciousness, etc, as I think the Spirit of God is God.. just as the spirit of me, would be.. me. And the spirit of you.. would be, you.

What I don't believe is that the Spirit of God  (or the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost) is a third "person" of the trinity or of a three in one.. but that the Holy Spirit is the Holy/Pure Spirit of God.. That the plan is for God to fill all things, and be all in all.. that God Himself will fill all.. Which of course started first with Jesus, the Son and "firstborn of all creation" the one in whom all things are being gathered. God made Jesus the cornerstone, capstone and, or foundation of all creation. God will not have to do any babysitting. He is creating something far better than that. But maybe I'm straying.. As I read through the references in the concordance, especially the ones I posted, it seemed clear to me that God Himself indwells us and will fill all in all.. (I think ppl fear God Himself.. that's why many churches worship only Jesus saying the Son is the Father.. and He prayed to...? and perhaps seeing His Spirit as another, has perhaps for some this same basis, not understanding that the emotions of the Father in the Old Testament has to do with the acts of barbaric mankind. What Father worth His salt wouldn't be exactly as angry as He was when they were placing live babes into fire as sacrifices to 'the gods' and the sex rites which brought some of those babes about.. albeit with a whole lotta patience, mercy and forbearance.. forgiveness.. I know I could never be so patient nor kind, nor forgiving, wipe 'em all out, start over!!)

I believe the Father is the Father and the Son is the Son.. in the God family and Kingdom, I see two.. Though JBerton.. may be right that the bride will become part of that family, albeit still lesser.. I think of this whole thing, God's intent - through life as we presently know it - to be the creating of God's own family (of many beautiful branches) sorry straying :laughing7: ..

As you may see I believe the Holy Spirit of God has a mind, a will, self identity, and emotions.. I believe the Holy Ghost is God/God's very Presence with us, and indwelling the believer.. the same force which rose Jesus from the grave.. and parted the Red Sea.. I don't even believe we can understand His Word without His Spirit showing it to us..

Do you, Molly, think of the Holy Spirit as a third One.. that there is the Father, the Son and the Spirit?

blessings, :smile: :hiya:
glenda marie

:dsunny:

[eaglesway]

Hi Molly, :smile:

I have experience with the Holy Spirit of God, as the Presence and Power of God.. and the one who leads into all truth.. a sense of clarity and understanding.. and of course, much more..

I think for instance the Jehovah Witnesses believe the Spirit is a power but not God Himself or His Presence with us, nor a consciousness at all.. Nor perhaps as the Spirit which indwells us and will fill all things.. Although not being a JW I could be wrong about that. I think of the Holy Spirit as having and being a consciousness, as I think the Holy/Pure Spirit of God is His Presence with us who believe..

I'm afraid I stick pretty much with almost only the Word, I figure if I can't find the answer in the Word, it can't be found..

The article you posted was interesting but as far as my perception, doesn't speak to what I think, as I do think the Spirit of God has consciousness, etc, as I think the Spirit of God is God.. just as the spirit of me, would be.. me. And the spirit of you.. would be, you.

What I don't believe is that the Spirit of God  (or the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost) is a third "person" of the trinity or of a three in one.. but that the Holy Spirit is the Holy/Pure Spirit of God.. That the plan is for God to fill all things, and be all in all.. that God Himself will fill all.. Which of course started first with Jesus, the Son and "firstborn of all creation" the one in whom all things are being gathered. God made Jesus the cornerstone, capstone and, or foundation of all creation. God will not have to do any babysitting. He is creating something far better than that. But maybe I'm straying.. As I read through the references in the concordance, especially the ones I posted, it seemed clear to me that God Himself indwells us and will fill all in all.. (I think ppl fear God Himself.. that's why many churches worship only Jesus saying the Son is the Father.. and He prayed to...? and perhaps seeing His Spirit as another, has perhaps for some this same basis, not understanding that the emotions of the Father in the Old Testament has to do with the acts of barbaric mankind. What Father worth His salt wouldn't be exactly as angry as He was when they were placing live babes into fire as sacrifices to 'the gods' and the sex rites which brought some of those babes about.. albeit with a whole lotta patience, mercy and forbearance.. forgiveness.. I know I could never be so patient nor kind, nor forgiving, wipe 'em all out, start over!!)

I believe the Father is the Father and the Son is the Son.. in the God family and Kingdom, I see two.. Though JBerton.. may be right that the bride will become part of that family, albeit still lesser.. I think of this whole thing, God's intent - through life as we presently know it - to be the creating of God's own family (of many beautiful branches) sorry straying :laughing7: ..

As you may see I believe the Holy Spirit of God has a mind, a will, self identity, and emotions.. I believe the Holy Ghost is God/God's very Presence with us, and indwelling the believer.. the same force which rose Jesus from the grave.. and parted the Red Sea.. I don't even believe we can understand His Word without His Spirit showing it to us..

Do you, Molly, think of the Holy Spirit as a third One.. that there is the Father, the Son and the Spirit?

blessings, :smile: :hiya:
glenda marie

Beautiful. I see this through the Chief Cornerstone(Jesus the Only begotten son) through which the whole building is becomeing a temple of Living Stones(many sons unto glory)- a habitation of God in the Spirit. (Ephesisans, Peter)

Also in the Vine and the Branches- God being the source(living water), Christ being the vine, us being the branches.

For me this describes it perfectly without the necessity of extra-scriptural words.

[Molly]

Molly I believe you like to qualify this word by Jesus Joh 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
That Jesus was still a human and that explains how the Father is greater, perhaps there maybe something in that. Well how about  this
Joh_14:16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh_14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh_15:26  But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh_16:7  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Jesus had to depart before the another Comforter(Jesus was the first Comforter) would come, why?
Because Jesus had to die to become the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the only man to date that is truly born again of the Spirit(wind) and He did not become that Holy Spirit until He died and rose from the dead and He returned to His disciples as the Comforter....the Holy Spirit....Jesus Christ.
Here I dentifies Himself, Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me......" even the Spirit of truth, ...."

"Jesus had to die to become the Holy Spirit"

Are you saying the Holy Spirit did not exist before Jesus became a man and died?


But the Bible says that Jesus as a man on earth had the Spirit without measure.

For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.  Jn 3:34

" Jesus is the only man to date that is truly born again of the Spirit (wind)"

But Jesus himself tells Nicodemus we must be born again of Spirit.  And, Paul tells us we have an earnest of the Spirit now.

It's an interesting thought, though, that Jesus is the only man to date with a resurrected body that can contain the new wine.   But the Bible tells us that we are his body, his flesh and his bones.  And Hebrews tells us we have access to the most holy place now through a new way, his body.


19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

--Heb 10

[micah7:9]

"Jesus had to die to become the Holy Spirit" Yes, to become "another" Comforter.
Joh_16:7  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Are you saying the Holy Spirit did not exist before Jesus became a man and died? No, see Gen.1:2

But the Bible says that Jesus as a man on earth had the spirit without measure. Amen and Glory!

" Jesus is the only man to date that is truly born again of the Spirit (wind)"

But Jesus himself tells Nicodemus we must be born again of Spirit.  And, Paul tells us we have an earnest of the Spirit now.
Yes, when we are brought to repentance(a change of mind) we receive the earnest of the Spirit, as you say, now the Holy Spirit begins the work in us, to cleanse us with the fire. :dsunny:

[Molly]

I still don't understand, Micah.  Why does Jesus have to die to 'become the Holy Spirit'?  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I'm not saying you're wrong.  I just don't understand what you are saying.

[micah7:9]

I still don't understand, Micah.  Why does Jesus have to die to 'become the Holy Spirit'?  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I'm not saying you're wrong.  I just don't understand what you are saying.

As long as you continue to hold the thought that the Spirit/Holy Spirit as an entity rather than the Power/energy of God the Father you may not grasp it.
Just what do you think Jesus meant when he said, Joh_16:7  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
The act of Love by the Father sending His Son to be the sacrifice/atonement for the sin of the world, and the act of Love by the Son to do the Will of the Father all led to the time for the Son to die as a human. Jesus had to be born again of the Spirit to be able to send the Comforter, Jesus the man was the Comforter to the disciples in earthly form, but to be able reconcile, and do the work it would take the power/energy of the Father.....His Spirit.
Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
:HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[Molly]

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:33




If the law is written in our hearts, no evil spirits, demons, devils, whatever will be able to live inside of us, making us, as the temple of the Holy Spirit, a clean place.



Now look what Jesus is saying he is doing:


"But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.


--Luke 11:20



How were the original commandments written?



When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the covenant law, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.  Ex 31:18



The Law was originally written "by the finger of God."

But, those commandments didn't even make it down the mountain before they were broken by Moses when he saw the Israelites worshipping the golden calf.


Yet, the new covenant removes our hearts of stone and replaces them with a heart of flesh, and it is on this heart [of Christ] that the commandments are now written.


I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.  Eze 36:26

This is why Jesus is able to say to people, Go and sin no more.



Now look at this.  Is the 'finger of God" the Holy Spirit?


In another place, Jesus replaces 'finger of God" in that explanation with the Holy Spirit.



But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Mat 12:28



So the "finger of God" is the Holy Spirit.




Now look at this, the Holy Spirit was completely involved in the creation process as the third person in the trinity.



3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; Psa 8

[Molly]

I still don't understand, Micah.  Why does Jesus have to die to 'become the Holy Spirit'?  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I'm not saying you're wrong.  I just don't understand what you are saying.

As long as you continue to hold the thought that the Spirit/Holy Spirit as an entity rather than the Power/energy of God the Father you may not grasp it.
Just what do you think Jesus meant when he said, Joh_16:7  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
The act of Love by the Father sending His Son to be the sacrifice/atonement for the sin of the world, and the act of Love by the Son to do the Will of the Father all led to the time for the Son to die as a human. Jesus had to be born again of the Spirit to be able to send the Comforter, Jesus the man was the Comforter to the disciples in earthly form, but to be able reconcile, and do the work it would take the power/energy of the Father.....His Spirit.
Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
:HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Ok I won't grasp it then, Micah, because I believe that the Holy Spirit as the third person of the trinity was totally involved in every aspect of God's creation, and he was with Jesus as Jesus walked the earth containing the Spirit without measure.

Both Jesus and the Holy Spirit came to earth together 2000 years ago.

But, the Spirit was not given to man until Jesus departed to be with the Father, where he remains to this day.  We are now in the ministry/age  of the Holy Spirit.

[micah7:9]

 :sigh: i do not believe i can be of any help as long as you seek persons and entities.
If you cannot see the simplicity that the power/energy of the Lord God is His Spirit and that, that Spirit is what accomplishes ALL that is accomplished be that through the finger of God, a rushing mighty wind, or an all consuming Fire, healing, discernment, or prophecy. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

I just read your other post  :sigh: you have yet to show in the Word of God that the Holy Spirit is a person or for that matter where God is a person. You are allowing a man theory established by doctrine that lacks verse of scripture. You have posted many times what the Holy Spirit does, which I cannot nor will I deny, for I believe it, but you have established no proof of a person. It would seem to me something as important of God being 3 persons in 1, would have been given at least a clue in the OT and then the NT certainly would bring more clarity, but 3 persons in 1, is a theological theory that has no Biblical truth. :dsunny: