Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[Molly]

Good find Molly.  Union, cooperation, working together...the Father and Son were and are ALWAYS "on the same page" = "one".

Don't forget God the Holy Spirit.   :thumbsup:

[Eduard]

That's my problem Molly, I don't think the Holy Spirit is one with God and Jesus, what evidence is there to support this diea?

[Molly]

That's my problem Molly, I don't think the Holy Spirit is one with God and Jesus, what evidence is there to support this diea?

We only have 31 pages in this thread, Eduard.  Have patience.  Give me some time.   :LH:


PS if you see any links in my posts, don't click on them.  My computer seems corrupted.  I have to get this fixed. 

[lastpost]

I look at Constantine and say, well, without him, Christianity would have never made it to me

I look around the world and although I see very few people believing in Christ the way that I do, yet I am thankful for buildings with bells and steeples and crosses outside that "intrude" into the lives of people to remind them - or at least give them the opportunity to investigate - that their God came to Earth, the absence of which would be a detriment to mankind. 

[Molly]

I look at Constantine and say, well, without him, Christianity would have never made it to me

I look around the world and although I see very few people believing in Christ the way that I do, yet I am thankful for buildings with bells and steeples and crosses outside that "intrude" into the lives of people to remind them - or at least give them the opportunity to investigate - that their God came to Earth, the absence of which would be a detriment to mankind.

That's exactly the way I feel, too.

[Eduard]

Well, this thread is good discussion, but still there's no clear evidence that there is a Trinity.

[micah7:9]

Good find Molly.  Union, cooperation, working together...the Father and Son were and are ALWAYS "on the same page" = "one".

Don't forget God the Holy Spirit.   :thumbsup:

Where in the Word of God do you find "God the Holy Spirit?" You have not shown where the HS is a person either.

[Molly]

We did some studies in the Old Testament where the word of the Lord [Jesus] came to people and talked with them, even put a hand on them so that they could both see and feel his presence.



It is the same with the Spirit of the Lord who also visits people in the Old Testament.  Sometimes he comes as a spirit, sometimes as a loud voice, sometimes as a still small voice but he always comes with mighty power to achieve his purposes for God.





10 The Spirit of the Lord came on him,A)" so that he became Israel's judge and went to war. The Lord gave Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram into the hands of Othniel, who overpowered him.   Judges 3





29 Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah" of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites.



6 The Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon him" so that he tore the lion apart with his bare hands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told neither his father nor his mother what he had done.  Judges 14





It seems like you guys would be really interested in cultivating the Holy Spirit.  He clearly imparts huge power on people to bring them to victory through supernatural means.  Maybe you have to be a weak female to appreciate Him.  Maybe you have to be at the end of yourself and your own abilities, that is, desperate, to consider Him.  Sometimes being desperate has its advantages because only then you might be open to meeting the powerful Holy Spirit.  But, if anyone has overwhelming battles to fight, the HS is the go to God.



But, as the Holy Spirit is spirit, if he wants to be seen by people he often appears to them in the Old Testament as an 'angel,' although he is not an angel.   He is the mighty third person of the trinity.  Let's take a look at what happens when he meets the coward, Gideon who is trying to thresh grain in a winepress because he is afraid he will be seen by his enemies and oppressors, the Midianites.






11 The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, "The Lord is with you, mighty warrior."



13 "Pardon me, my lord," Gideon replied, "but if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our ancestors told us about when they said, 'Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt?' But now the Lord has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian."



14 The Lord turned to him and said, "Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian's hand. Am I not sending you?"

15 "Pardon me, my lord," Gideon replied, "but how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family."



16 The Lord answered, "I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites, leaving none alive."





You all know how this story ends.  If you don't, find out.

C'mon, guys.  Are you going to let a girl have all this power to herself because you are too proud to say you're wrong, and admit the third person of the trinity is not only a Helper, but He is Rambo with wings?

[micah7:9]

I have not read on this thread anyone denying the Holy Spirit or it's power, IN the beginning God......
and the Spirit of God moved....., there the power and energy.

Eph 4:3  being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace;

Unity  G1775  henotēs oneness, that is, (figuratively) unanimity: - unity
Peace   G1515  eirēnē  Probably from a primary verb εἴρω eirō (to join); peace (literally or figuratively); by implication prosperity: - one, peace, quietness, rest, + set at one again.

[Eduard]

That's all true, but nowhere is it written that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit form a Trinity.

[marie glen]

I think of the Spirit of God, not as a separate entity/personality, but as the Presence of God (with us as 'opposed' to God on the Throne in the heavens/where His 'headquarters' are now, until His headquarters move to Jerusalem)

And of Father and Son as so close, both in essence/family and in purpose, that Jesus promised the coming of the Spirit of God to indwell believers.. Yet it's also true the Son prayed to someone.. I disagree when people say the Father got off the throne and came to earth, as though Father and Son are only one.

Also Jesus prayed that believers would "be one as He and the Father are one", yet I'm assuming we are still all individuals, and not only one. And the indwelling spirit of God manifests as the "fruit of the Spirit" (love, joy, peace, etc) whereas natural man not indwelt, is prone to division, etc (forming parties/factions and all the rest)

:2c: :smile:

[Molly]

That's all true, but nowhere is it written that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit form a Trinity.

There are three of them and it says they are echad,  One.

One thing that I find interesting is that Jesus spans the gap between the spiritual world and the physical world.

[jbertonbounds]

I think of the Spirit of God, not as a separate entity/personality, but as the Presence of God (with us as 'opposed' to God on the Throne in the heavens/where His 'headquarters' are now, until His headquarters move to Jerusalem)

And of Father and Son as so close, both in essence/family and in purpose, that Jesus promised the coming of the Spirit of God to indwell believers.. Yet it's also true the Son prayed to someone.. I disagree when people say the Father got off the throne and came to earth, as though Father and Son are only one.

Also Jesus prayed that believers would "be one as He and the Father are one", yet I'm assuming we are still all individuals, and not only one. And the indwelling spirit of God manifests as the "fruit of the Spirit" (love, joy, peace, etc) whereas natural man not indwelt, is prone to division, etc (forming parties/factions and all the rest)

:2c: :smile:

That's it!  In our natural state, humans are divided, segregated, factioned....
In Jesus (and with the Spirit in us) we are united, which is the opposite of our natural tendencies.
We are already made in God's image to a degree, but in Jesus we are changed to be more in God's image.

IMO, the full concept of the relationship of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to each other is probably impossible to conceive in the human mind.  We can understand in part, but maybe we are not capable of fully understanding it.  I really don't think God cares how you theorize and conceptualize the trinity or not-trinity.  He cares about how we are relating to other humans!  After all, that, brothers and sisters, is the very basis on which we will be judged.  Not by what you understood, or how viable your theories were.  But by what you did for other people, how well you loved (verb) others!  We all should spend more time thinking about what we can do for other people's needs, and less time debating theories and concepts.
:2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:

[Molly]

That's it!  In our natural state, humans are divided, segregated, factioned....
In Jesus (and with the Spirit in us) we are united, which is the opposite of our natural tendencies.
We are already made in God's image to a degree, but in Jesus we are changed to be more in God's image

Yes!  He's making us more like......God.
:thumbsup:

But we have the mind of Christ.  echad.

[CHB]

The way I understand what Jesus said about him and his Father being "ONE" is, he also said (John 17:21-23) "That they all may be ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US:

(Verse 22) And thed glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one , even as we are one.

(Verse 23)I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in ONE; and that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

What I get from these verses is, we are to become ONE with Christ and the Father just like Christ was ONE with the Father. Not that Christ and the Father are the same individual. Jesus also pointed out that he was SENT by the Father. So there had to be a Father apart from Christ for him to be sent by him. I do believe Christ came from God because Jesus said "I came from God" That is what made him the only begotten son of God. We didn't come from God we came from the earth.

CHB

[Eduard]

Jesus also said "The Father is greater than I"

[CHB]

Jesus also said "The Father is greater than I"

Right!! and he also said in (John 17:13) And now come I to thee; (Verse 11) "I come to thee Holy Father". (Verse 5) "Father glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

John 16:28) I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

It can't get any plainer than this. Jesus left his Father and came to earth and he returns to heaven where the Father has never left.

CHB

[Molly]

Jesus also said "The Father is greater than I"

Right!! and he also said in (John 17:13) And now come I to thee; (Verse 11) "I come to thee Holy Father". (Verse 5) "Father glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

John 16:28) I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

It can't get any plainer than this. Jesus left his Father and came to earth and he returns to heaven where the Father has never left.

CHB

Yes. and here's the clincher for me--When Jesus the man is glorified--so are we!!!!

Because we are in him.


He does all the work.

He is the Way.

[eaglesway]

I look at Constantine and say, well, without him, Christianity would have never made it to me

I look around the world and although I see very few people believing in Christ the way that I do, yet I am thankful for buildings with bells and steeples and crosses outside that "intrude" into the lives of people to remind them - or at least give them the opportunity to investigate - that their God came to Earth, the absence of which would be a detriment to mankind.

That's exactly the way I feel, too.

Before anyone makes a saint of Constantine they ought to study history. Constantine approved the doctrine of Arius for quire awhile. Later he switched to the support of Anathasius....and Arius died under suspicious circumstances(poison probably). The history of the "church" that extends forward to the RCC is a history of debauchery, abuse of power, ex-communication and martyrdom for anyone who dared speak against infallibility of the Pope. Think about it. Constantine was the beast. From that time forward a series of "Holy Roman Emporers supported the Pope, who like the false prophet of revelation made the whole world bow down and worship the beast and his image(the RCC).

The Borgias, the Crusades, the slaughter of the Anabaptists.....Really, I dont care how someone views the godhead as long as Jesus is their Only Begotten Son, born f a virgin, lived a spotles life, died and was raised to the riht hand of the Father-

But Constantine as a preserver of Christianity?   He instituted all the things Jesus says He "hates" in the 7 letters to the 7 churches- I mean we have to consider history and the scriptures at some point and not just spin fairy tales or regurgitate the propaganda of institutional churches .

[Molly]

Jesus has done all the work, and we are signed, sealed and delivered by the Holy Spirit.

Just rest rest rest in Him and enjoy the ride.




Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

---Rom 6

[lastpost]

I don't think that Molly meant Constantine was the "preserver of Christianity" at all. I think Molly was saying that he was a pawn in the scheme of things – it could have been better but it wasn't. It could have been worse but it wasn't. Today is today and the past is the past and forgiving the past is a necessary step to reconciliation as evil as it was. That is only possible by learning of Christ's unstoppable Love.

[Molly]

Thanks, Lastpost,

That's what I would have said if I could have put it that clearly.  :laughing7:



Genesis 50:20

[Constantine] meant it for evil..., but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

[eaglesway]

Well, I agree he was a pawn, but IMO more like Satan is a pawn- used to obscure the truth by mixing it with lies. Again, IMO, No good thing came out of the Nicean convention, other than that the scriptures were fulfilled that in the last times deceivers would arise having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof.

[lastpost]

more like Satan is a pawn- used to obscure the truth by mixing it with lies.

Dear eaglesway, I agree with you. Evil truly runs amok!

[lastpost]

Genesis 50:20

"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."

My opinion is that God transforms what has been perverted back to the good it was before evil struck. It is not a "wiping out" but a transformation, and sometimes over millennia depending on what is struck and how deeply. God will be "all-in-all" (1 Cor.15:28) at the Grand Consummation, "one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in all" (Eph. 4:6), everything will be reconciled and He will be all things in all beings.

I believe the attention should be turned upwards as well as inwards and not so flatly. The Master stated that: "In My Father's home (oikia) are many dwelling or abiding places (mone)", and He further emphasised this by stating: "If it were not so I would have told you" (John 14:2). He therefore said essentially, listen carefully, there are many dwelling or abiding places in my Father's House, it's important to realise this.

I do not have the problems of "right doctrine" that I see and hear others becoming upset about and in my opinion, stunting much of what Christ wishes to be built up as far as reconciliation is concerned. The doctrine I have comes through the sweet Gatekeeper who is Christ my Lord: "I am the Door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be kept safe (sozo), and shall go in and out" (John 10:9) said He.

All will be made good again after the evil in man has struck. And strike it does. But man must play his part of reconciliation or he gives place to the enemy. For man to have reconciliation he too must abide in reconciliation even as he is asked to abide in the Reconciliator, to "abide" in Christ (John 15:4). The enemy has struck throughout time and strikes today so the reconciliatory spirit in each man and woman must be for all time, not just a moment of spirituality now and again.

Personally, I appreciate the efforts made as to the teachings today found in Christendom although I disagree with most of them fundamentally, but I wish them to be transformed not annihilated, the rubbish heaps gathered together in order to get back to the start again, right to where man has erred from the beginning. To go back to Christ and only Christ and to look at Him, learn from Him, see that the only words that have come from God in the flesh were those of Jesus Christ, see that the perfect life He lived was spotless and without error, feel what Divine sacrificial Love is like and then know this is how their God feels towards them and always without withdrawal, to feel that the only thing worth having is that Divine sacrifical Love. Then will be a Grand Consummation indeed.

Men must always have the spirit of reconciliation, they must learn to listen to Christ, to hear the simple teachings and believe them, the hard ones: "Turn the other cheek" if one is struck, he must learn to overcome the hardness in his heart, not in words but in literally allowing the sacrificial Love of Christ Jesus to envelop him, indeed, to live in Him, to be buried in Divine Love and in that burial comes the only life there is.