Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[Molly]

And when the last enemy is subject then He will retutn all things to the Father that God may be all in all

1 Cor 15

That's a few ages down the road.  But, then what does Jesus do?  Retire to the shore?

For so it pleased the Father to make all the funess dwell in Him Colossians 1

Let's read what it really says:

Because you kind of make it sound like Jesus was just walking along the side of the road and he was hit by a bolt of lightening and given all the powers of God.  I think it's important to figure out when the author is talking about Jesus as a man and Jesus before he came to earth as a human.  And, I don't see that as semantics.  I see that as understanding the script.




16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

--Col 1

[micah7:9]

Try this: There is ONE GOD. Jesus Christ came OUT FROM God and is called the "Son OF God." The Holy Spirit comes OUT FROM God and is called the "spirit OF God." But God has bestowed on Jesus ALL THAT HE IS AND ALL THAT HE HAS, hence Jesus also has this SAME SPIRIT and therefore there is the "spirit OF Christ" which is the SAME spirit OF God. They BOTH possess the SAME SPIRIT. And as they possess the SAME SPIRIT, they are ONE!

[Molly]

Try this: There is ONE GOD. Jesus Christ came OUT FROM God and is called the "Son OF God." The Holy Spirit comes OUT FROM God and is called the "spirit OF God."

I like this. 


But when the Comforter [ONE] is come, whom I [Jesus][TWO] will send unto you from the Father,[THREE] even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:  Jn 15:26.

But--


The Holy Spirit is "sent" by the Father and Son, as he also "proceeds" from them. For this reason he is called "the Spirit of the Father" (e.g., Mt. 10:20; 1 Cor 2:11; also Jn 15:26), but also "the Spirit of the Son" (Gal 4:6), or "the Spirit of Jesus" Acts 16:7) since it is Jesus himself that sends him (cf. Jn 15:26).

In other words, as Deity, they share one Spirit.


And--


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

--John 1

[mplsfitter539]

Possibly the trinitarians are a bit confused because good ole KJV translates all of the sacred names to God. Yashua does share the title of God with His father but Yashua is not ever called Yahweh.The English word "God" is used by multiple religions as a noun or name to refer to different deities. This is why I read the Hebrew Roots bible. This also is not semantics. 

[Molly]

Possibly the trinitarians are a bit confused because good ole KJV translates all of the sacred names to God. Yashua does share the title of God with His father but Yashua is not ever called Yahweh.The English word "God" is used by multiple religions as a noun or name to refer to different deities. This is why I read the Hebrew Roots bible. This also is not semantics.

I'm not sure what you are talking about.  I can show you plenty of examples where Yahweh and Jesus sound like the same person and say the same thing about themselves.  For instance, they both call themselves our Savior.

I've already showed you where Jesus calls himself YAH, and the Jews go to stone him.  Did you notice how they kept trying to kill him for blasphemy?  The word God is translated in the Hebrew as 'ĕlôhıym, which is plural.

[Molly]

Ah, 'proceeding' (ekporeuomai) from the Father God. The Spirit is Holy, it proceeds from God. Is that which is given a description of parakletos (inferring a living intelligence) by Jesus and which comes from the Father God and which is Holy not Divine?

Personally, I liken the Holy Spirit to the Spiritual Christ (not the Man Jesus) but the redemptive, uplifting, comforting and healing Spirit acting on the authority of the Father God and empowered to carry on the work of Jesus Christ now that He has left us in human form so that the Divine Plan is brought to completion.

For me there is no separation but different manifestations of Divinity. If I was to count these mentioned aspects of Divinity then I would count three aspects of One God and yet I count only One God. However, I'm not counting. I have Christ and He is never leaving me. I know it matters to some but that's enough God for me, I couldn't take any more.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

And when the last enemy is subject then He will retutn all things to the Father that God may be all in all

1 Cor 15

That's a few ages down the road.  But, then what does Jesus do?  Retire to the shore?

For so it pleased the Father to make all the funess dwell in Him Colossians 1

Let's read what it really says:

Because you kind of make it sound like Jesus was just walking along the side of the road and he was hit by a bolt of lightening and given all the powers of God.  I think it's important to figure out when the author is talking about Jesus as a man and Jesus before he came to earth as a human.  And, I don't see that as semantics.  I see that as understanding the script.




16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

--Col 1

I didnt make it sound like anything :dontknow:.

I just quotd the verse. The verse says to me that the Father caused His fulnessto dwell in Christ. Neither the verse, nor me in my reason for quoting it- are concerned about whether it happenned through a lightning strike or anything like that..... it(and I in quoting it) just addresses the issue of source.

And again, I am presenting a number of verses in this discussion. They bear weight together and cannot be dismissed by anecdotes and personal perspectives. But I am just putting forth my own view here. I am not trying so much to turn over anyone elses view. I am saying that agressive Trinitarians who teach their view as if it essential to salvation, knowing God, etc- are out of order and walking in presumption towards ther brethren who see it differently.

[lastpost]

Gen 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."

Gen 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us..."

God is referred to in these sacred records as being plural, which is no coincidence surely. Man anthropomorphises God, and assumes that God must be like himself as he is now.

[Molly]

And when the last enemy is subject then He will retutn all things to the Father that God may be all in all

1 Cor 15

That's a few ages down the road.  But, then what does Jesus do?  Retire to the shore?

For so it pleased the Father to make all the funess dwell in Him Colossians 1

Let's read what it really says:

Because you kind of make it sound like Jesus was just walking along the side of the road and he was hit by a bolt of lightening and given all the powers of God.  I think it's important to figure out when the author is talking about Jesus as a man and Jesus before he came to earth as a human.  And, I don't see that as semantics.  I see that as understanding the script.




16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

--Col 1

I didnt make it sound like anything :dontknow:.

I just quotd the verse. The verse says to me that the Father caused His fulnessto dwell in Christ. Neither the verse, nor me in my reason for quoting it- are concerned about whether it happenned through a lightning strike or anything like that..... it(and I in quoting it) just addresses the issue of source.

And again, I am presenting a number of verses in this discussion. They bear weight together and cannot be dismissed by anecdotes and personal perspectives. But I am just putting forth my own view here. I am not trying so much to turn over anyone elses view. I am saying that agressive Trinitarians who teach their view as if it essential to salvation, knowing God, etc- are out of order and walking in presumption towards ther brethren who see it differently.

I don't know of any trinitarians who say you have to believe in the trinity to obtain salvation. 

Do you know some?  Certainly no one on this thread is saying that.

What I was trying to say is that, people use the verses that describe Jesus as a man, out of context, and when you do that,  it makes it look like he was just a man given some special powers from God.  That is totally the opposite of what happened.  He was God who divested himself of His mighty power and humbled himself to become a man.  And, he did this for a reason--which was the salvation of humanity.  This shows us the love of Christ for us.



Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to

Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,

--Phil 2:6-7

[micah7:9]

Here is the third.  There are three persons in this passage.

"When the Counselor [ONE] comes, whom I [Jesus] [TWO] shall send to you from the Father [THREE], even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he [ONE] will bear witness to me [TWO]; and you also are witnesses, because you have been with me from the beginning" (Jn 15:26f).


There are two witnesses to Jesus in that passage:  The Holy Spirit and the Apostles.


Every matter shall be determined by two or three witnesses. [2 Cor 13:1]

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[Molly]

Here is the third.  There are three persons in this passage.

"When the Counselor [ONE] comes, whom I [Jesus] [TWO] shall send to you from the Father [THREE], even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he [ONE] will bear witness to me [TWO]; and you also are witnesses, because you have been with me from the beginning" (Jn 15:26f).


There are two witnesses to Jesus in that passage:  The Holy Spirit and the Apostles.


Every matter shall be determined by two or three witnesses. [2 Cor 13:1]

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

AMEN!   :banana: :banana: :banana:

[micah7:9]

I hope those banana's are because you now understand why there was never a trinity. Besides like the eternal punishment doctrine which is not found in the OT neither is a trinity doctrine.


Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given...that's ONE to me anyway. :dsunny:

[jbertonbounds]

Hmmmm. :Chinscratch:

[eaglesway]

And when the last enemy is subject then He will retutn all things to the Father that God may be all in all

1 Cor 15

That's a few ages down the road.  But, then what does Jesus do?  Retire to the shore?

For so it pleased the Father to make all the funess dwell in Him Colossians 1

Let's read what it really says:

Because you kind of make it sound like Jesus was just walking along the side of the road and he was hit by a bolt of lightening and given all the powers of God.  I think it's important to figure out when the author is talking about Jesus as a man and Jesus before he came to earth as a human.  And, I don't see that as semantics.  I see that as understanding the script.




16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

--Col 1

I didnt make it sound like anything :dontknow:.

I just quotd the verse. The verse says to me that the Father caused His fulnessto dwell in Christ. Neither the verse, nor me in my reason for quoting it- are concerned about whether it happenned through a lightning strike or anything like that..... it(and I in quoting it) just addresses the issue of source.

And again, I am presenting a number of verses in this discussion. They bear weight together and cannot be dismissed by anecdotes and personal perspectives. But I am just putting forth my own view here. I am not trying so much to turn over anyone elses view. I am saying that agressive Trinitarians who teach their view as if it essential to salvation, knowing God, etc- are out of order and walking in presumption towards ther brethren who see it differently.

I don't know of any trinitarians who say you have to believe in the trinity to obtain salvation. 

Do you know some?  Certainly no one on this thread is saying that.

What I was trying to say is that, people use the verses that describe Jesus as a man, out of context, and when you do that,  it makes it look like he was just a man given some special powers from God.  That is totally the opposite of what happened.  He was God who divested himself of His mighty power and humbled himself to become a man.  And, he did this for a reason--which was the salvation of humanity.  This shows us the love of Christ for us.



Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to

Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,

--Phil 2:6-7

In no place have I posted anything that defined Jesus as just a man to whom God gave special powers.

The fact that a person cannot imagine any paradigm in which Jesus could be the only begotten Son, and not be the Father at the same time- doesnt mean that such a paradigm cannot exist. Maybe it doesnt- but maybe it is the limit of your imagination or revelation that is the reason you can only define what others are saying in your own terms.

Colossians 1, the same scripture that declares that the Father made all the fulness dwell in the Anointed One, clearly says that Jesus is way beyond a man with special powers.

The Supremacy of the Son of God

15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Again, my point is not that I want to overturn anyone elses view. Trinitarian doctrine, however, is not early apostolic doctrine, it is post Greco/Roman and it is not essential in my opinion. I think it was you Molly, who posted earlier, in reply 240, about Muslims and Jehovah's Witnesses and coupled it with, "If anyman denies who I am I will deny him before my Father in heaven" as if anyone who doesnt buy nto the Trinity is like a Muslim or a JW? If I misunderstood you I apologise but I called that grandstanding before and I will again because the Trinitarian view has been underfire for 1500 hundred years from WITHIN the church and will continue to be so- because it was never the last word on the subject and BECAUSE IT WAS NEVER THE FIRST WORD ON THE SUBJECT.

I shun all such labels that were not included in the conversations of the prophets and apostles and I particularly reject the idea that we should be limited to discussing a subject as awesome and intriguing as the Deity and nature of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in those terms. Even moreso, I have no desire to say that a Trinitarian view is "wrong"- I don't like the term but I understand the view and consider it an acceptable if implausible(to me) view.

I just discuss it to keep the door open, even if i  have to jam my foot in it once and awhile, because there should be NO FEAR in discussing it and NO SHAME in questioning it or proposing a different view if it can be supported by scripture.

I think we are all guilty at times of "arranging" the verses to say what believ is true, me as much as anyone I am sure- but there is always a different arrangement than mine and by looking at the word through someone elses "arrangement" or viewing a verse through "the other perspective" I have been delivered from some of my former religious icons, graven image pressed upon my mind by the theology of men with "jobs to save" :o)

Saints of God have been martyred for questioning it, along with those who questioned ET.

[Molly]

I hope those banana's are because you now understand why there was never a trinity. Besides like the eternal punishment doctrine which is not found in the OT neither is a trinity doctrine.


Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given...that's ONE to me anyway. :dsunny:

Those bananas are for the one God who carries all the names and functions of God:  Wonderful Counselor, Almighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.

Three in one is just a simplified way of recognizing the functions and persons of the one true God.

Jesus, whose name was called Immanuel, which means, "God with us."

[micah7:9]

 :sigh: I give up

[mplsfitter539]

It may be safe to assume that even UR believers are split on this subject. I base my conclusion on the evidence presented here on both sides of this issue. I would still like to do a poll here on how many of us believe in the trinity theory and how many don't. Molly is the only one who has openly admitted and claimed the trinity theory publicly as far as I know. So come on all of you trinitarians don't be so ashamed just admit it.

[micah7:9]

That would be excellent. Aside from the fact the teaching is absent in the Bible OT and NT. :dontknow:

[eaglesway]

I believe Emmanuel means God is with us too :o)

"For God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself"

"For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of His cross"

[Molly]

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.


The word Christ means, the anointed one, the anointed, the anointing.  It is an epithet for the Messiah.


In the Old Testament, the anointing served a purpose.

Anointing served as a dedication.  Jacob anointed the stone, after his dream, dedicating the place as the house of God.

Anointing served as an appointment.  Prophets, Priests, and Kings were anointed when they were appointed to their position.

Anointing served as a means to set apart [make holy].   The items in the Tabernacle were anointed, to set them apart for God.

We, too, are anointed by God, the Holy Spirit, when the Spirit of God comes upon us.

Dedicated, appointed as sons, and set apart, we are able to do all things through the anointing of the Holy Spirit, which strengthens us.

[eaglesway]

The idea of three in one doesnt really bother me at all. It is the co-equal, co-eternal part. I believe they are co-substantial. I am positive they are not co-equal. I am not sure whether or not they are co-eternal. I do not judge anyone for their view on it- but I will maintain my view on it and continue to study it because it is incredibly interesting to me :o)

Tertullian was the first to advance the theory of the Trinity and call it that. He is also known as the father of latin theology. His theory was considered heresy during his lifetime, it wasnt until the council at Nicea(the flower of abominations) that the Trinity became approved as "orthodox".

Tertullian rejoiced at the teaching of hell, writing that he would laugh at the torment of the wicked and take great joy in the agony of kings. I think he may well hav been a religious reprobate. At any rate, his writings on the joys of beholding human beings liquefying in flames is here on Tentmaker, quite a piece of work.

[Molly]

I don't hold anything against people long dead.  I have never been hurt by God.  Only an abundance of blessings have to come to me from him.  So it's hard for me to empathize with people who have been hurt.

I look at Constantine and say, well, without him, Christianity would have never made it to me.  It was on the ropes before he had his vision, and soon to be eradicated from the Roman empire.

Without Constantine, Christianity would have fallen into the dustbin of history as a Jewish cult.

So I owe Constantine a debt of gratitude, the way I see it, and his group at Nicea.  Sometimes you can get some things wrong and get some things right at the same time.  They got the tri-unity of God right, imo.  It's all over the Bible.

[Eduard]

Yeah, Constantine may not have been the most righteous of men, but he did accept Christianity.

[Molly]

In Deut 6:4, it says Hear O Israel the LORD our God is one LORD.

The word for one in the Hebrew is not the numerical number one.

It is the same word used in Gen 2 where it says the man and woman shall become one flesh.

Here is the Hebrew word.

"one"

H259
אחד
'echâd
ekh-awd'
A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.


Maybe that would help

The root word for echad H258 means to unify.

[jabcat]

Good find Molly.  Union, cooperation, working together, of the same mind, of the same Substance...the Father and Son were and are ALWAYS "on the same page"; one.