Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[rosered]

 :HeartThrob: its beautiful Molly 
the testimony of Jesus Christ IS  the  SPIRIT OF PROPHECY

That is why Paul wanted all the church   being the Lord Jesus Christ  Body to prophesy
not only for the edfication of the church , but would all  have the same  testimony of Jesus Christ in them 

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

  to prophesy is to have the Wisdom and revelation of the knowldge of HIM ! I become so excited the day the Lord showed me that   in plain sight a treasure , i  missed  reading it before  , just as you are now , I love His Living Word !!! it breathes new Life into us His Body !!

Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy. 


1Cr 14:2   For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 


1Cr 14:3  But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men [to] edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 
1Cr 14:4   He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.    :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

Yes! rosered.  He's allowing us to watch the creation process.

I just am stunned by it and in awe--ALL THE TIME.

[rosered]

It seems like maybe we're not all speaking the same language in this discussion.

How does John 12:49 actually prove anything about the Trinity or non-Trinity beliefs?  I just see it saying Jesus and His Father worked together (as One - no disagreements, perfect harmony), and Jesus did His Father's will - as a "good Son" would. 

So IMO, it boils down to 3 things with the Trinity discussion;

1) does one believe Jesus is God/Divine/the same Substance as His Father, existing from before creation - or not (i.e., someone who came into existence later, and God just especially blessed and called/made him his son)

2) the Holy Spirit is a "co-equal" Person in the Trinity, or not (i.e., still God's Spirit, the Holy or Pure Spirit, but more so the breath of God, God's power which He uses to do His will, the "active" part that emanates from Him)

3) or the "Oneness Pentecostal/Apostolic" view, i.e., Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are all LITERALLY one, that just represents Himself as different aspects depending on the situation (sometimes playing the role of Father, sometimes the role of Son, sometimes the role of Holy Spirit, but never any actual, real separate aspects/Entities).

  Hi   Bro J ,
I have already stated    what faith I believe several pages ago  :laughing7:
  and  i can change under new revelation  , as we all ,being  able to grow in truth and grace as God is willing 

but I believe    the confusion comes  just as it did   with the Jews  with Christ being Davids son


And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him [any question]. 


Mar 12:35 ¶ And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?   

Who is the Lord of David ?   and who is the Lord   that spoke to Him by the Holy spirit saying it  is his son also ?   Jesus Christ was and is and will always be Lord ,      but He is in the High positon     and authority of being not only the LORD  of the   LIVING BUT LORD OF THE DEAD
GOD IS ONLY THE GOD OF THE LIVING  as Jesus states   plainly  , Jesus is gahering into Himself    and making alive to His Father presented    as was told long ago in prophecy   the same SPIRIT  of Prophecy    this testimony     that is truth

  I hope you can see this  as well , its pretty amazing and I am  not able to explain    like I would love to be able , God knows 


Mar 12:36   For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. 


Mar 12:37   David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he [then] his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

[rosered]

Yes! rosered.  He's allowing us to watch the creation process.

I just am stunned by it and in awe--ALL THE TIME.

me too sweetie , its my joy  unspeakable and full of glory  for HIM !!! Bless Him for blesing us all  ,  He sure does deserve honor and blessing    and thankfulness  from us all  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

not you, but in general, it seems the thread can use some focus. sometimes it seems like we're "ships passing each other in the night".   just my little effort on focus.   :Book:   It may not be very helpful though.   :duck:

[Molly]

It seems like maybe we're not all speaking the same language in this discussion.

How does John 12:49 actually prove anything about the Trinity or non-Trinity beliefs?  I just see it saying Jesus and His Father worked together (as One - no disagreements, perfect harmony), and Jesus did His Father's will - as a "good Son" would. 

So IMO, it boils down to 3 things with the Trinity discussion;

1) does one believe Jesus is God/Divine/the same Substance as His Father, existing from before creation - or not (i.e., someone who came into existence later, and God just especially blessed and called/made him his son)

2) the Holy Spirit is a "co-equal" Person in the Trinity, or not (i.e., still God's Spirit, the Holy or Pure Spirit, but more so the breath of God, God's power which He uses to do His will, the "active" part that emanates from Him)

3) or the "Oneness Pentecostal/Apostolic" view, i.e., Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are all LITERALLY one, that just represents Himself as different aspects depending on the situation (sometimes playing the role of Father, sometimes the role of Son, sometimes the role of Holy Spirit, but never any actual, real separate aspects/Entities).

  Hi   Bro J ,
I have already stated    what faith I believe several pages ago  :laughing7:
  and  i can change under new revelation  , as we all ,being  able to grow in truth and grace as God is willing 

but I believe    the confusion comes  just as it did   with the Jews  with Christ being Davids son


And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him [any question]. 


Mar 12:35  And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?   

Who is the Lord of David ?   and who is the Lord   that spoke to Him by the Holy spirit saying it  is his son also ?   Jesus Christ was and is and will always be Lord ,      but He is in the High positon     and authority of being not only the LORD  of the   LIVING BUT LORD OF THE DEAD
GOD IS ONLY THE GOD OF THE LIVING  as Jesus states   plainly  , Jesus is gahering into Himself    and making alive to His Father presented    as was told long ago in prophecy   the same SPIRIT  of Prophecy    this testimony     that is truth

  I hope you can see this  as well , its pretty amazing and I am  not able to explain    like I would love to be able , God knows 


Mar 12:36   For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. 


Mar 12:37   David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he [then] his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

Yes, he's making everything alive!  He's making  A NEW CREATION!  And, he's allowing us to watch him doing it.





And the one sitting on the throne said, "Look, I am making everything new!"

--Rev 21:5


And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.  Rom 8:11


2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

[Eduard]

I do not believe that God, Christ and the Holy Ghost are "3 in 1" and I also don't think it's essential to our relationship with God. I know that Christ said that He and the Father are one, but that can be interpreted in so many ways . Also, not much is said about the Holy Ghost to convince me that they form a Trinity.

[mplsfitter539]

I do not believe that God, Christ and the Holy Ghost are "3 in 1" and I also don't think it's essential to our relationship with God. I know that Christ said that He and the Father are one, but that can be interpreted in so many ways . Also, not much is said about the Holy Ghost to convince me that they form a Trinity.

I agree Eduard, after searching and seeking to find why most "Christians" believe in the trinity theory I still don't see the proof. Since the very first time someone tried to explain this fable to me I have searched for it and have not found it. What I did find is that a bunch of Catholic bishops along with Constantine (pagan) corroborated to explain something that they clearly didn't understand. This is what the Word calls traditions of men and a fable. The trinity theory is an unproven concept.

Concept:
1: something conceived in the mind : thought, notion
2: an abstract or generic idea generalized from particular instances 

Considering the word trinity is no where to be found it is an obvious concept conceived in the minds of pagans who have yet to discover the One not the 3 in 1.

[Molly]

Have you searched and found the Holy Spirit yet?

Because the only thing separating us from pagans is the Holy Spirit, the third person of the trinity.



All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, 'The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.'

--John 16:15

[micah7:9]

not you, but in general, it seems the thread can use some focus. sometimes it seems like we're "ships passing each other in the night".   just my little effort on focus.   :Book:   It may not be very helpful though.   :duck:

Focus would be nice. There have been many verses proving that there is a Holy Spirit, which I believe everyone will agree there is a Holy Spirit. But all the "trinity believers" have not given one verse of scripture to show that there are 3 "persons" in 1. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

not you, but in general, it seems the thread can use some focus. sometimes it seems like we're "ships passing each other in the night".   just my little effort on focus.   :Book:   It may not be very helpful though.   :duck:

Focus would be nice. There have been many verses proving that there is a Holy Spirit, which I believe everyone will agree there is a Holy Spirit. But all the "trinity believers" have not given one verse of scripture to show that there are 3 "persons" in 1. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

I just gave you one.  Maybe you'd like to read it again.


All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, 'The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.'

--John 16:15



All three are working together for your benefit.

And, all three are God, which I can also prove with scripture.



Or maybe you could explain to ME how Jesus got control over God's Spirit.

Do you think you could get control over MY spirit?  I don't think so.

[micah7:9]

IMO, You have offered no such information.
Heb 5:12  For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God;
Deu 6:4  Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Oracles; G3051  an utterance (of God)
It's just like the lucifer theory, no oracle of God from the beginning about either theory. Should either have any substance at all, I believe there would have been some mention in the beginning. Just like ET punishment, no mention of that type of punishment as the penalty for sin. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

The trinity is theory.

[Molly]

IMO, You have offered no such information.
Heb 5:12  For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God;
Deu 6:4  Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Oracles; G3051  an utterance (of God)
It's just like the lucifer theory, no oracle of God from the beginning about either theory. Should either have any substance at all, I believe there would have been some mention in the beginning. Just like ET punishment, no mention of that type of punishment as the penalty for sin. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

The trinity is theory.

Just answer my one simple question, Micah.

How did Jesus gain control of God's Spirit?

[mplsfitter539]

IMO, You have offered no such information.
Heb 5:12  For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God;
Deu 6:4  Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Oracles; G3051  an utterance (of God)
It's just like the lucifer theory, no oracle of God from the beginning about either theory. Should either have any substance at all, I believe there would have been some mention in the beginning. Just like ET punishment, no mention of that type of punishment as the penalty for sin. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

The trinity is theory.

Just answer my one simple question, Micah.

How did Jesus gain control of God's Spirit?

That's easy Yahwey (father) gave it (HS) to Yashua (son).

[Molly]

IMO, You have offered no such information.
Heb 5:12  For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God;
Deu 6:4  Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Oracles; G3051  an utterance (of God)
It's just like the lucifer theory, no oracle of God from the beginning about either theory. Should either have any substance at all, I believe there would have been some mention in the beginning. Just like ET punishment, no mention of that type of punishment as the penalty for sin. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

The trinity is theory.

Just answer my one simple question, Micah.

How did Jesus gain control of God's Spirit?

That's easy Yahwey (father) gave it (HS) to Yashua (son).

Giving it to him and giving him control over it are two different things, aren't they?

Everything Jesus tells the Spirit to tell me, the Spirit of God obeys and tells me.  [That is what that verse says].

Do Jesus and the Father share one Spirit, then?  And, both have control over it?

[mplsfitter539]

We all share the same Spirit of Yahweh including His first born son Yahshua. Yahshua is our eldest brother.

Acts 2

32 "God brought this man Jesus back to life. We are all witnesses to that. 33 God used his power (HS) to give Jesus the highest position. Jesus has also received and has poured out the Holy Spirit as the Father had promised, and this is what you're seeing and hearing. 34 David didn't go up to heaven, but he said,

'The Lord said to my Lord,
    "Take my highest position of power
35 until I put your enemies under your control."'

[micah7:9]

They are ONE. :dsunny:

[Molly]

We all share the same Spirit of Yahweh including His first born son Yahshua. Yahshua is our eldest brother.

Acts 2

32 "God brought this man Jesus back to life. We are all witnesses to that. 33 God used his power (HS) to give Jesus the highest position. Jesus has also received and has poured out the Holy Spirit as the Father had promised, and this is what you're seeing and hearing. 34 David didn't go up to heaven, but he said,

'The Lord said to my Lord,
    "Take my highest position of power
35 until I put your enemies under your control."'

Jesus says, All things which the Father has are mine. Can we say that, too?

Do I have God's Spirit in the same way that Jesus does?

Is there any difference between me and my 'older brother' Jesus?

I am created.  Was he?

[Molly]

They are ONE. :dsunny:

Yes, they are--the Father and the Son.  They are also two.  Two in one.

[mplsfitter539]

They are ONE. :dsunny:

Yes, they are--the Father and the Son.  They are also two.  Two in one.

Yes two in One Spirit not 3 in 1.

[Molly]

Here is the third.  There are three persons in this passage.

"When the Counselor [ONE] comes, whom I [Jesus] [TWO] shall send to you from the Father [THREE], even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he [ONE] will bear witness to me [TWO]; and you also are witnesses, because you have been with me from the beginning" (Jn 15:26f).


There are two witnesses to Jesus in that passage:  The Holy Spirit and the Apostles.


Every matter shall be determined by two or three witnesses. [2 Cor 13:1]

[lastpost]

Ah, 'proceeding' (ekporeuomai) from the Father God. The Spirit is Holy, it proceeds from God. Is that which is given a description of parakletos (inferring a living intelligence) by Jesus and which comes from the Father God and which is Holy not Divine?

Personally, I liken the Holy Spirit to the Spiritual Christ (not the Man Jesus) but the redemptive, uplifting, comforting and healing Spirit acting on the authority of the Father God and empowered to carry on the work of Jesus Christ now that He has left us in human form so that the Divine Plan is brought to completion.

For me there is no separation but different manifestations of Divinity. If I was to count these mentioned aspects of Divinity then I would count three aspects of One God and yet I count only One God. However, I'm not counting. I have Christ and He is never leaving me. I know it matters to some but that's enough God for me, I couldn't take any more.

[micah7:9]

Joh 20:27  then he saith to Thomas, `Bring thy finger hither, and see my hands, and bring thy hand, and put it to my side, and become not unbelieving, but believing.'
Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said to him, `My Lord and my God;'

[eaglesway]

How is it the opposite?  Would you rather have him say, I don't care what my Father says, I'm talking for myself here?

Three in one, three in one, three in one...

Is that a Catholic mantra you are chanting there Molly? Because it sure isnt a scriptural response ;o)

[eaglesway]

22 God has put all things under the authority of Christ and has made him head over all things for the benefit of the church. 23 And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself.

--Eph 1



He's doing all this for us!

For so it pleased the Father to make all the funess dwell in Him Colossians 1


And when the last enemy is subject then He will retutn all things to the Father that God may be all in all 1 Cor 15

I want to acknowledge that a lot of 'semantics" are being argued as doctrine. I will maintain my view but I have no problem with people who see the Godhead as a trinity, I just see it differently. It is the washing of the blood of Jesus and the one SPirit who is in us all that makes us one, regardless of how we see the godhead.