Trinity Discussion, split from "Something I Just Read"

[Molly]

If as you say Jesus was our subsitute, then we don't have to die.

Exactly.  We don't have to die.  I keep trying to tell you that, Micah.  Remember the first passover lamb?  What happened?  They put the blood of the lamb on the doorposts and every firstborn died around them but theirs did not have to die.

But Jesus is the Lamb of God  How much greater is He than the shadow?


Sometimes the church gets it right.   :banana: :banana:


and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

--John 11:26

Even if one gets hung up on physical death, there's still the spiritual death/life in question.  We were "once DEAD in our trespasses and sins".   

I'm having a discussion right now through email with a brother about the sacrifice/atonement.  I'm not saying micah is, but many are attempting to take the sacrifice out of things. Hebrews 10 explains it well.  Blessings, James.

well, I am talking about spiritual life, or however you want to put it, continuing after death of the body.  That's what Paul was talking about in 2 Cor 5.  To be clothed upon...in heaven.  We will be in heaven.  And, we will not be naked spirits in heaven.

The church didn't make this stuff up.  It's in the Bible, in more than one place.

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

--2 Cor 5

[micah7:9]

If as you say Jesus was our subsitute, then we don't have to die.

Exactly.  We don't have to die.  I keep trying to tell you that, Micah.  Remember the first passover lamb?  What happened?  They put the blood of the lamb on the doorposts and every firstborn died around them but theirs did not have to die.

But Jesus is the Lamb of God  How much greater is He than the shadow?


Sometimes the church gets it right.   :banana: :banana:


and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

--John 11:26

This kind of thinking is why I left off listening to and reading any type of denominational teaching.  :sigh:

[micah7:9]

It doesn't say there the Father is 'the greater one.'

I'm just really confused about what you believe.  You said 'Bingo" to Jesus is God the Creator.

But you think there is a greater God than God the Creator?

Joh 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

While he walked on this earth, Jesus was limited by a human body.  He humbled himself to appear  in human form.  Even so, we are told "in him dwelleth the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Col 2:9   It's interesting how they put that.  It doesn't say the fullness of the Father bodily.

"Godhead"

G2320
θεότης
theotēs
theh-to'-ace
From G2316; divinity (abstractly): - godhead.


For me, the Godhead is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, also known as God.

And as much as could be present in a human body, Jesus had it--filled to the brim and overflowing-- while he walked on this earth.

It is this kind of thinking is why I quit listening to and reading denominational teaching, I was dragged out of Egypt. :dsunny:

[jabcat]

well, I am talking about spiritual life, or however you want to put it, continuing after death of the body.  That's what Paul was talking about in 2 Cor 5.  To be clothed upon...in heaven.  We will be in heaven.  And, we will not be naked spirits in heaven.

The church didn't make this stuff up.  It's in the Bible, in more than one place.

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

--2 Cor 5

Yes, spiritual death/life was my point.  I think often that's overlooked in such discussions, and physical death is focused on.  We are spiritually dead without Christ.  With Him, through His death on the cross, the sacrifice for our sins, and being given the faith to believe on Him, we are spiritually reborn, i.e.,  alive.

[Molly]

If as you say Jesus was our subsitute, then we don't have to die.

Exactly.  We don't have to die.  I keep trying to tell you that, Micah.  Remember the first passover lamb?  What happened?  They put the blood of the lamb on the doorposts and every firstborn died around them but theirs did not have to die.

But Jesus is the Lamb of God  How much greater is He than the shadow?


Sometimes the church gets it right.   :banana: :banana:


and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

--John 11:26

This kind of thinking is why I left off listening to and reading any type of denominational teaching.  :sigh:

Don't worry, Micah.  I get thrown out of every church I try to enter, too.   They don't like me, either.

But, now you've gone from the frying pan into the fire.   :laugh:

[jabcat]

With Him, through His death on the cross, the sacrifice for our sins, and being given the faith to believe on Him, we are spiritually reborn, i.e.,  alive.

Paul calls it "made alive".

[Molly]

well, I am talking about spiritual life, or however you want to put it, continuing after death of the body.  That's what Paul was talking about in 2 Cor 5.  To be clothed upon...in heaven.  We will be in heaven.  And, we will not be naked spirits in heaven.

The church didn't make this stuff up.  It's in the Bible, in more than one place.

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

--2 Cor 5

Yes, spiritual death/life was my point.  I think often that's overlooked in such discussions, and physical death is focused on.  We are spiritually dead without Christ.  With Him, through His death on the cross, the sacrifice for our sins, and being given the faith to believe on Him, we are spiritually reborn, i.e.,  alive.

Yes.  He's made us alive and he tells us we will never, ever die.  He uses a double negative, never never.

We will remain in heaven with him until the end of the Age when we return with him [as clouds] and receive our immortal bodies.

Unless, we are still here when he returns with the others [clouds], that is.  In that case, we will not even experience the death of the physical body.



Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment [No wages of sin, Micah], but has passed from death to life.

--John 5:24

[Molly]

Micah, if you read the book of Ruth, you will learn about the kinsman-redeemer, who can redeem a close relative by paying his debts.

Jesus, God become flesh, is our kinsman-Redeemer.  As our kinsman-Redeemer, he has paid all our debts of the flesh. 

We are FREE.





Because God's children are human beings--made of flesh and blood--the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had the power of death.

--Heb 2:14



None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

--1 Cor 2:8

[jbertonbounds]

1 John 5.7-8 [KJV] - 7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.  8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Notice how the ESV version differs from the KJV:

1 John 5.7-8 [ESV] - 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.

The notes in the NIV tell us that, "Late manuscripts of the Vulgate [say] 'testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the' ([but these words are] not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)"

Don't worry about it, the three are found together elsewhere in the Bible.

For instance, here:


16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen

--Mat 28

I stated that I didn't know of any scriptures that actually teach the concept of the trinity.  This scripture does not teach that concept.  Do you know of any that actually teach the concept?

[Molly]

1 John 5.7-8 [KJV] - 7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.  8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Notice how the ESV version differs from the KJV:

1 John 5.7-8 [ESV] - 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.

The notes in the NIV tell us that, "Late manuscripts of the Vulgate [say] 'testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the' ([but these words are] not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)"

Don't worry about it, the three are found together elsewhere in the Bible.

For instance, here:


16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen

--Mat 28

I stated that I didn't know of any scriptures that actually teach the concept of the trinity.  This scripture does not teach that concept.  Do you know of any that actually teach the concept?

well, I just have 21 pages, so far.  Give me a chance.  Have patience.

[micah7:9]

Good luck on that one jbertonbounds.

[micah7:9]

well, I am talking about spiritual life, or however you want to put it, continuing after death of the body.  That's what Paul was talking about in 2 Cor 5.  To be clothed upon...in heaven.  We will be in heaven.  And, we will not be naked spirits in heaven.

The church didn't make this stuff up.  It's in the Bible, in more than one place.

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

--2 Cor 5

Yes, spiritual death/life was my point.  I think often that's overlooked in such discussions, and physical death is focused on.  We are spiritually dead without Christ.  With Him, through His death on the cross, the sacrifice for our sins, and being given the faith to believe on Him, we are spiritually reborn, i.e.,  alive.

So the man Jesus didn't die the death of Gen. 2:17 and the wages of sin is not dead death, but spiritual death. So Jesus was not raised from the dead. 1Co 15:16  For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
Okay , I think Im getting it?

[CHB]

We will remain in heaven with him until the end of the Age when we return with him [as clouds] and receive our immortal bodies.

Molly, what kind of bodies do we have while we are in heaven with Him? You said "when we return we will recieve our immortal bodies".

CHB

[Molly]

We will remain in heaven with him until the end of the Age when we return with him [as clouds] and receive our immortal bodies.

Molly, what kind of bodies do we have while we are in heaven with Him? You said "when we return we will recieve our immortal bodies".

CHB

For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal [aionios] body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.


6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

--2 Cor 5

[jabcat]

well, I am talking about spiritual life, or however you want to put it, continuing after death of the body.  That's what Paul was talking about in 2 Cor 5.  To be clothed upon...in heaven.  We will be in heaven.  And, we will not be naked spirits in heaven.

The church didn't make this stuff up.  It's in the Bible, in more than one place.

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

--2 Cor 5

Yes, spiritual death/life was my point.  I think often that's overlooked in such discussions, and physical death is focused on.  We are spiritually dead without Christ.  With Him, through His death on the cross, the sacrifice for our sins, and being given the faith to believe on Him, we are spiritually reborn, i.e.,  alive.

So the man Jesus didn't die the death of Gen. 2:17 and the wages of sin is not dead death, but spiritual death. So Jesus was not raised from the dead. 1Co 15:16  For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
Okay , I think Im getting it?

http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/did-jesus-die-11045/msg149366/#msg149366

[mplsfitter539]

 

For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal [aionios] body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.


6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

--2 Cor 5

Hello again Molly,
This section of scripture IMO is not talking about and instantaneous thing that happens at death. When you die you will be sleeping and unaware of time. When Yahweh resurrects you it will surely seem instantaneous because you are completely dead until that happens. Dead dead dead.

I don't mean this as an insult but these points you continue to defend yourself with are all proofs that the propagandized "Christians" use to back up their erroneous interpretation of God's Word. If you truly believe in UR how do you reconcile these things?

[Molly]

Hi mpls,

I can only justify my reading of the text and try to read it as carefully as possible.

In 2 Cor 5, Paul is very specific.  He talks about "when we die and leave this earthly body"--something is going to happen [we will be in heaven with the Lord].   This of course would be a different time for everyone.  He says we would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord.  He doesn't give any other option.  He doesn't say we would rather rot in the grave.  He doesn't say we would rather be asleep for 2000 years.  You are the one writing into this, not me, when you say, 'You will be sleeping and unaware of time."  Paul doesn't say that here.  You are the one saying, 'dead, dead, dead,"  Not Paul and certainly not Jesus. 

10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.

---John 10:10


"abundantly"


G4053
περισσός
perissos
per-is-sos'
From G4012 (in the sense of beyond); superabundant (in quantity) or superior (in quality); by implication excessive; adverb (with G1537) violently; neuter (as noun) preeminence: - exceeding abundantly above, more abundantly, advantage, exceedingly, very highly, beyond measure, more, superfluous, vehement [-ly].



Jesus has come to give us superabundant life.  Guess he missed the mark on that one as we rot in the grave,?   But you can believe whatever you want.  You can be on the dead dead dead side and I'll be on the superabundant life side.


I see 2 Cor 5 as describing each individual's death with an immediate [as in no time lapse] escort into the presence of the Lord.  And, a different time, [moment of death], for everyone.

Whereas, I see the actual resurrection as happening at the same time for everyone, at the 7th trumpet, at the return of Christ, at the end of the age, followed by us ruling and reigning with Christ on earth, not in heaven.


So I'm putting these two passages together, which happen, I think, at a different time than 2 Cor 5.


51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

--1 Cor 15



15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

--1 Thess 4



Notice these two events are happening at the same time for everyone.  There are trumpets [the 7th] involved. and  In one we see the return of Christ and a supernatural meeting him in the air.  There's no trumpets and no Christ returning to earth in 2 Cor 5.  In 2 Cor 5 there's no talk about earth at all, just a place for us in heaven with the Lord and an aionios body.

I think it can get confusing because the Bible often uses the word sleep for death.   And, it uses the word dead for physically dead.   I think these last two passages from 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4 are both describing the same event, and it's different from what Paul is talking about in 2 Cor 5.

For someone who has hardly stepped foot in a church in my adult life, I sure do get accused a lot of being a propagandist for the church.  In fact, I am an empirical   learner and will only tend to speak of what I know from first hand experience, and I always stay grounded in the Bible as best I can.  But, if you ever want to come over to my superabundant life side, you are certainly welcome.  If I can get one other person to join me, maybe I'll start a club.
:bigGrin:

[mplsfitter539]

Molly what then is the resurrection for if everyone who dies goes straight to heaven? Did David go straight to heaven?
Acts 2

29 "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that our ancestor David died and was buried and that his tomb is here to this day. 30 David was a prophet and knew that God had promised with an oath that he would place one of David's descendants on his throne. 31 David knew that the Messiah would come back to life, and he spoke about that before it ever happened. He said that the Messiah wouldn't be left in the grave and that his body wouldn't decay.

Did David precede Yashua into the heavenlies? How about Abraham did he precede Yashua also? How could either one have received eternal life ahead of Yashua?

[Molly]

Molly what then is the resurrection for if everyone who dies goes straight to heaven? Did David go straight to heaven?
Acts 2

29 "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that our ancestor David died and was buried and that his tomb is here to this day. 30 David was a prophet and knew that God had promised with an oath that he would place one of David's descendants on his throne. 31 David knew that the Messiah would come back to life, and he spoke about that before it ever happened. He said that the Messiah wouldn't be left in the grave and that his body wouldn't decay.

Did David precede Yashua into the heavenlies? How about Abraham did he precede Yashua also? How could either one have received eternal life ahead of Yashua?

I don't recall saying any of those things.

What I said was the resurrection of the dead is happening at the same time for everyone [in Christ], at the end of the age,  and it's not about heaven at all, it's about ruling and reigning on earth with Christ.


Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices shouting in heaven: "The world has now become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign forever and ever."  Rev 11:15

Who are those voices shouting in heaven?

I think it's  the dead in Christ, who are really alive in heaven when this happens.

[Molly]

5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.

--2 Cor 5



Prepared us for what?  For eternal life!

This covenant that God has made with us, this promise,  is sealed by the Holy Spirit.


4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.



"tabernacle"

G4636
σκῆνος
skēnos
skay'-nos
From G4633; a hut or temporary residence, that is, (figuratively) the human body (as the abode of the spirit): - tabernacle.


We are living in the [Moses] tabernacle in the wilderness in this body.  Even so, IT IS [CREATED TO BE] THE ABODE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.



Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's SPIRIT dwells in you?

--1 Cor 3:16




Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.



The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ because Christ is God.


Hebrews 3:6 But Christ is faithful as the Son over God's house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.

[Ken]

Hello Molly,

You asked to see something different, so here it is:

a. No one goes to "heaven" when they die. It simply isn't in the Bible:

http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess018a.htm

b. There is no "trinity". Both the word and the concept are no where to be found in the Bible:

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d120101.PDF

http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess041.htm

What we do need to understand are the first and second resurrections, that Jesus spoke plainly about:

http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm

I hope this helps.

Ken

(http://ernestlmartin.com/images/kogpng.png)

*I split this off into its own thread, and modified the thread title in each post.  As always, but especially in this topic, let's remember to post "As I understand", "In my opinion", "I believe", etc.  What's my understanding of scripture today, God may show me something different and change my mind tomorrow.  :) 

From the very first paragraph, "A loving God, it is claimed would not send anyone to eternal damnation Thus, those sent to hell "......If the writer can use the word "hell" the entire paper is questionable.  :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Perfect. If one small detail is wrong than it changes everything. How can someone who proclaims the trinity be like minded with anyone who excepts the death of the Christ. Its a small detail to the one proclaiming it but to me they worship another Jesus than I do. Making a pagan doctrine dating to the earliest religions into a "Christian" doctrine is just a clever ploy to dupe the masses.

whoa whoa whoa...I believe in the Trinity and I do not consider myself a pagan or the duped masses.   :laugh:

  But, this might be something we're not allowed to speak about.  I can't remember.




4Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? who has gathered the wind in his fists? who has bound the waters in a garment? who has established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if you can tell? 5Every word of God is pure: he is a shield to them that put their trust in him. ...

--Prov 30




There are three in this verse.  Let's let Jesus speak for himself:



16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

--Isa 48

[Molly]

Hi Ken, I'm happy to see we both agree that Jesus Christ is God, the Creator of heaven and earth.  :thumbsup:

[mplsfitter539]

Hi Ken, I'm happy to see we both agree that Jesus Christ is God, the Creator of heaven and earth.  :thumbsup:

Yahshua does share the title of God with his father who is greater. God is only a title not a name. They both have the title of God but that doesn't negate the fact that Yahweh is one God not 3 in 1. Each holds the title of God but Yahshua is subordinate to His Father Yahweh. Yahweh created everything through His Son. Yahshua only does and says what His Father tells Him.

[Molly]

3 As I briefly wrote earlier, God himself revealed his mysterious plan to me. 4 As you read what I have written, you will understand my insight into this plan regarding Christ. 5 God did not reveal it to previous generations, but now by his Spirit he has revealed it to his holy apostles and prophets.

6 And this is God's plan: Both Gentiles and Jews who believe the Good News share equally in the riches inherited by God's children. Both are part of the same body, and both enjoy the promise of blessings because they belong to Christ Jesus. 7 By God's grace and mighty power, I have been given the privilege of serving him by spreading this Good News.

8 Though I am the least deserving of all God's people, he graciously gave me the privilege of telling the Gentiles about the endless treasures available to them in Christ. 9 I was chosen to explain to everyone this mysterious plan that God, the Creator of all things, had kept secret from the beginning.

10 God's purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord.

12 Because of Christ and our faith in him, we can now come boldly and confidently into God's presence. 13 So please don't lose heart because of my trials here. I am suffering for you, so you should feel honored.

--Eph 3



14 When I think of all this, I fall to my knees and pray to the Father, 15 the Creator of everything in heaven and on earth. 16 I pray that from his glorious, unlimited resources he will empower you with inner strength through his Spirit. 17 Then Christ will make his home in your hearts as you trust in him. Your roots will grow down into God's love and keep you strong. 18 And may you have the power to understand, as all God's people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love is. 19 May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.

20 Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think. 21 Glory to him in the church and in Christ Jesus through all generations forever and ever! Amen.

--Eph 3

[Molly]

20 Now to Him Who, by (in consequence of) the [action of His] power that is at work within us, is able to [carry out His purpose and] do superabundantly, far over and above all that we [dare] ask or think [infinitely beyond our highest prayers, desires, thoughts, hopes, or dreams]—

21 To Him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations forever and ever. Amen.

--Eph 3