*I split this off into its own thread, and modified the thread title in each post. As always, but especially in this topic, let's remember to post "As I understand", "In my opinion", "I believe", etc. What's my understanding of scripture today, God may show me something different and change my mind tomorrow. :)
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on May 31, 2013, 07:12:34 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 31, 2013, 05:17:48 PM
From the very first paragraph, "A loving God, it is claimed would not send anyone to eternal damnation Thus, those sent to hell "......If the writer can use the word "hell" the entire paper is questionable. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Perfect. If one small detail is wrong than it changes everything. How can someone who proclaims the trinity be like minded with anyone who excepts the death of the Christ. Its a small detail to the one proclaiming it but to me they worship another Jesus than I do. Making a pagan doctrine dating to the earliest religions into a "Christian" doctrine is just a clever ploy to dupe the masses.
whoa whoa whoa...I believe in the Trinity and I do not consider myself a pagan or the duped masses. :laugh:
But, this might be something we're not allowed to speak about. I can't remember.
4Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? who has gathered the wind in his fists? who has bound the waters in a garment? who has established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if you can tell? 5Every word of God is pure: he is a shield to them that put their trust in him. ...
--Prov 30
There are three in this verse. Let's let Jesus speak for himself:
16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
--Isa 48
Sorry Molly I didn't know that we are not suppose to talk about it here. As much as I would like to find out why people believe in it instead of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit of God. Maybe a poll would be a good idea because for me I thought we were suppose to be like minded but I can see that there are few sticking points even in our small crowd. Like I said if people get one part of something wrong they have it all wrong.
Galatians 5
9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
Quote from: Molly on May 31, 2013, 10:30:38 PM
It can be discussed. We opened it up when we opened up the "free will" discussion. So far, no major battles. :)
It definitely is encouraged to do just what you did though, state "I believe.."
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on May 31, 2013, 11:57:03 PM
Like I said if people get one part of something wrong they have it all wrong.
Then we're all sunk. :help: :laugh:
"a little leaven leavens the whole lump"
IMO, that doesn't mean one must have every aspect of every doctrine correct. I believe it means things are definitely affected, but not necessarily ruined. Whether leavened, or unleavened, bread is still bread. Don't get me wrong, I believe we DEFINITELY should contend for sound doctrine - as much as we can understand - at the time. But to say for instance, if someone believes in the Trinity, that they're wrong about everything else about God, I don't believe is correct. I believe one can believe in the Trinity, and still believe Jesus is God's Son and that He died and rose again for our sins, which according to scripture = spiritually reborn. I also believe one can not believe in the "classical view" of the Trinity, and still believe Jesus is God's Son and that He died and rose again for our sins, which according to scripture = spiritually reborn. The "litmus test" for salvation is not whether the Holy Spirit is a Person or God's Breath/Spirit - it's whether one believes Jesus is God's Son and that He rose from the dead. Rom. 10:9, Act 16:31
I personally believe the "another God" or "another Jesus" issue was Paul talking about people preaching another way to salvation other than through the grace of Jesus. I haven't looked that up, so if that's not the correct context, please let me know. :)
"In honor, preferring one another". Blessings, James.
The highest angels of heaven cry 'Holy" in sets of three. A nice meditation.
And one cried to another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. Isa 6:3
Revelation 4:8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,' who was, and is, and is to come."
John 1:16, "And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace."
I agree with Jabcat. After 40+ years being a christian, I still don't know for sure if it is Father, Son and Holy Spirit or just Father and Son and the Father, besides being spirit also has a spirit (that is Holy as He is)
There is even the possibility that just as we are Body, mind, and spirit yet one. That God is also Body(Christ) mind(the Father) and Spirit (the Holy Spiri) as one personal being since we were created in God's image. So God maybe 1, 2, or 3 personalities in the one true God. Nobody knows for certain and the uniqueness of the God being precludes anyone being "right" or "wrong". With that, there is no justification for judging another's belief about 1,2 or 3 in the "One True God" :Peace2:
"But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me." (John 15:26)
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." (John 14:26)
"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth...He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you." (John 16:13-14)
"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17)
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come." (John 16:13)
"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:..." (John 15:26)
"When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him." (Matthew 3:16)
John 1:32 Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.
1 John 5:6 .... And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
"I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me." (John 14:18-19)
"Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God." (Romans 8:26-27)
Another translation:
26 And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don't know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. 27 And the Father who knows all hearts, knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with God's own will.
---Rom 8
[Romans 8, one of the most beautiful chapters in the Bible, imo]
I think this page is quite interesting, it explains why scriptures state that we would be "Gods"-John 10:34 because our concepts of "God" may be different from what the truth is.
http://www.godsplanforall.com/7foundationalbiblicaltruths
http://www.godsplanforall.com/antichristchristianity
Quote from: ded2daworld on June 01, 2013, 05:16:07 AM
I agree with Jabcat. After 40+ years being a christian, I still don't know for sure if it is Father, Son and Holy Spirit or just Father and Son and the Father, besides being spirit also has a spirit (that is Holy as He is)
There is even the possibility that just as we are Body, mind, and spirit yet one. That God is also Body(Christ) mind(the Father) and Spirit (the Holy Spiri) as one personal being since we were created in God's image. So God maybe 1, 2, or 3 personalities in the one true God. Nobody knows for certain and the uniqueness of the God being precludes anyone being "right" or "wrong". With that, there is no justification for judging another's belief about 1,2 or 3 in the "One True God" :Peace2:
I think it is okay to judge beliefs or else we will be forever learning and never coming to the truth. We need to understand that is the concepts/doctrines/beliefs that are being judged rather than the person, have a open mind and willing heart and put all we have on the table to discuss and grow together.
I think once we stop placing our self-worth upon our beliefs and realize that our self-worth must come from the fact that we are Jehovah's most beloved creations, we will grow much faster.
IMO, there's a difference between knowing the "Truth" Jesus)
and forever learning about him. (Which often entails multiple doctrinal views.
IMO God is an infinity. Man tries to label and categorize to fit into their finite mind.
22 Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he went, always pressing on toward Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, "Lord, will only a few be saved?"
He replied, 24 "Work hard to enter the narrow door to God's Kingdom, for many will try to enter but will fail. 25 When the master of the house has locked the door, it will be too late. You will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Lord, open the door for us!' But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from.' 26 Then you will say, 'But we ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.' 27 And he will reply, 'I tell you, I don't know you or where you come from. Get away from me, all you who do evil.'
28 "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, for you will see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God, but you will be thrown out. 29 And people will come from all over the world—from east and west, north and south—to take their places in the Kingdom of God. 30 And note this: Some who seem least important now will be the greatest then, and some who are the greatest now will be least important then."
--Luke 13
It's not about getting doctrine right, so much as getting relationship with him right. I wish I knew how better to say it, what this means to me. But, he has done everything and given us everything we need to come close to him and stay close, not just once or twice a week, but every day and hour of our lives, --all that is needed is our attention, as we press on towards Jerusalem with him.
"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17)
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come." (John 16:13)
The Parakletos--John 14:16
And, I will pray the Father, and he will give you
"another"
G243
ἄλλος
allos
al'-los
A primary word; "else", that is, different (in many applications): - more, one (another), (an-, some an-) other (-s, -wise).
"Helper"
G3875
παράκλητος
paraklētos
par-ak'-lay-tos
An intercessor, consoler: - advocate, comforter.
Quote from: Molly on June 01, 2013, 07:01:26 PM
It's not about getting doctrine right, so much as getting relationship with him right. I wish I knew how better to say it, what this means to me. But, he has done everything and given us everything we need to come close to him and stay close, not just once or twice a week, but every day and hour of our lives, --all that is needed is our attention, as we press on towards Jerusalem with him.
=============================================
thanks Molly
re: relationship with Him... He has done everything and given us everything we need
Thanks, really confirms, reiterates what I read earlier this morning from T Austin-Sparks' book:
THE ON-HIGH CALLING
a few excerpts--
based on Col 1:19 God in all His fullness was pleased to live in Christ (NLT)
"Do not take these as just words. Do understand that in every fragment there is this truth: In this dispensation in whichy you and I are now living God has come to us in all His fullness. There is no more to be added. In His Son we have the absolute fullness of God, and it is out of that fullness that He speaks to us in His Son. God has only one Son in that sense --His only-begotten Son, which means that there is no one to come after Him. Therefore, God's last word is in His Son.
... To come into touch with the Lord Jesus is more than coming into touch with a teaching: it is coming into touch with a living, active Person. 'It is God with whom we have to do.' It is a glorious thing to come into touch with God in Christ ... it is not a teaching, a philosophy; it is a living, positive powerful Person.
... seeing one thing -- how superior is Jesus Christ to all else, and how superior is the dispensation into which we have come, and how superior are all the resources at our disposal to all that ever was before!"
=====
also thanks for giving Scriptural evidence of the greatest resource... John 14:16-17 and John 16:13 the Comforter, Spirit of truth to guide us into ALL truth
Quote
I personally believe the "another God" or "another Jesus" issue was Paul talking about people preaching another way to salvation other than through the grace of Jesus. I haven't looked that up, so if that's not the correct context, please let me know. :)
Totally agree with you Bro James !
the simplicty in Christ , the cross of Jesus Christ it is the Power of God , this everlasting gospel /good news all have heard and looked into
1Cr 1:18 For
the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness;
but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty,
so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ the TAV , the mark or sign , seal of God on our forheads the Cross !
until its a personal ''Jesus died for my sins at that Cross ''!!!
my own sins put him to death !! and not eveyone else , the Jews or anyone but me !!
that repentance and change of mind /heart and way of thinking and doing things , as you think so are you doing !!, by faith in Him , in that death we read the darkness covered the land [Body of Christ ] at the cross on the 9th hour
but its was His death that New LIFE sprung forth ! unless a seed falls to the ground and dies , new growth will not come forth , spring forth
but its a song I started singing from memory
At the cross at the cross when I first saw the Light and the burden of my heart rolled away , it was there by faith I recieved my sight and now I am happy all the DAY
The Day , the Light shined forth out of darkness , the tomb of our hearts !!
when you realize how simple it really is
I was doing a study on the letter TAV
the Cross the mark , Jesus gave up His soul , it was exceedingly sorrowful even unto death
here is in a part of this article
(Tav) is a common Hebrew word that denotes a mark, sign, or cross. In the ancient Hebrew script, it was written alternately as or the latter being identical to the traditional form of the Cross of Christ, as seen in the digital scan of Ben-Yehuda's Pocket Hebrew Dictionary above.) It is the origin of the corresponding Greek Tau and Latin T. God displayed its primary symbolic meaning in two Alphabetic Verses:
AV Ps 25:21 Let integrity (tom) and uprightness preserve me; for I wait on thee.
AV Lam 4:22 The punishment of thine iniquity is accomplished (tamam), O daughter of Zion; he will no more carry thee away into captivity: he will visit thine iniquity, O daughter of Edom; he will discover thy sins.
This is the glorious wonder of the Bible Wheel; it is self-evidently perfect from beginning to end. These Tav KeyWords describe the Twenty-Second Spoke, the Final Spoke that completes and seals the entire Bible. God placed them in the Alphabetic Verses as signs that prophetically anticipated the flawless integrity of His Bible as a whole! Yet there is more, so much more. In the rabbinic tradition, Tav is called the Seal of Truth (Bible Wheel book pg 37), and its form as a cross returns us to the central theme of all Scripture, the Gospel of Christ who sealed our salvation and bought us by the blood of His Cross!
The ancient Rabbinical tradition calls Tav the Seal of God, the Seal of Truth, and the Seal of Creation. Rabbi Ginsburgh, in his article on Tav , identifies the seal as truth (אמת, emet), spelt with the first, middle, and last of the sacred letters. He then says:
The last letter or seal of the word emet, "truth," itself - the seal of G-d's seal - is the letter tav, simple faith, the conclusion and culmination of all twenty-two forces - letters - active in Creation.
God bless ! in Jesus peace
amen Molly and One Thing :iagree:
Amen rosered and One Thing!
6 Jesus saith unto him, I Am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
--John 14
The first part of verse 6 packs a lot of information into a few words. First Jesus identifies himself as the tetragrammaton of the Old Testament, the memorial name of God that means I AM THAT I AM.
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
Then he proceeds to define himself with three names--The Way, The Truth, and The Life.
The Way is a path, a road, a highway that we are to walk on, and we walk in it by following the steps of Jesus.
He shows us The Way.
The LORD is my Shepherd.
He leadeth me into paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Psa 23
He demonstrates The Way with his life.
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Mat 16:24
He is The Way.
7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The Way of Holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:
10 And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
--Isa 35
51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
--John 1
There are two other names in this sentence: The Truth and the Life
The truth we have already identified as the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth.
The Life is God the Father--
But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. [Jer 10:10]
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." [Lk 20:38]
Holy, Holy, Holy :bowing:
Beautiful Molly! :dsunny: , just Beautiful ! :HeartThrob:
Molly, I find your perspective on "I AM the way, the truth, and the life..." very challenging -- worthy of more study, prayer, reflection. Thanks so much for always sharing your POV, so reverently, graciously, and Scrupturally supported. Many times, the Scriptures you share are the very Scriptures that help me connect more dots in my own studies/projects.
:HeartThrob:
Eric Ludy--The Gospel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPIOkdNL-QQ&feature=pyv
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
--Rom 8
Hey everyone,
I'm not sure what I believe about the Trinity doctrine versus other depictions of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that also recognize Jesus as the only begotten Son of God. If the Trinity depiction is true, how does Jesus Christ subject Himself to God in 1 Corinthians 15:28?
Thank you for your help,
Samuel
God has names for himself after the functions he performs or his characteristics, so in studying the names of God we see the Hebrew equivalent of LORD God Almighty, The Lord that Heals, The Lord our Righteousness, The Lord who sanctifies you, The Everlasting God, The Most High God, and so forth.
Of all these names, his favorite name is Y'shua, the name we call Jesus, which means Yah's Salvation.
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
--Phil 2:9
When God is all in all, the function of Y'shua will be finished, because all will be saved and restored.
24 After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. 25 For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. 26 And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For the Scriptures say, "God has put all things under his authority." (Of course, when it says "all things are under his authority," that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) 28 Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God's authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.. 1 Cor 15
Now I could say, that in my opinion, we are present in the above passage under the title of Christ, meaning the anointed one, as co-inheritors with Y'shua, because this passage is looking ages [more than one age] into the future. It is describing something that we can hardly imagine, a total restoration of God's creation, with not even one tiny spec of it outside the mind of Christ. Or, to put it another way, the mind of Christ will imbue and permeate all things equally and completely. The function of the Son who is Yah's Salvation will be completed. God will be all in all. But, I won't say that because I'm not able to explain it very well yet. So, I'll just keep it to myself for now.
Hi Molly,
Thank you for your reply.
Quote from: Molly on June 02, 2013, 06:17:20 AM
Now I could say, that in my opinion, we are present in the above passage under the title of Christ, meaning the anointed one, as co-inheritors with Y'shua, because this passage is looking ages [more than one age] into the future.
This brings to mind Revelations 22, where we see the saints reigning for the ages of the ages.
Quote from: Graph1159 on June 02, 2013, 07:01:34 AM
Hi Molly,
Thank you for your reply. Quote from: Molly on June 02, 2013, 06:17:20 AM
Now I could say, that in my opinion, we are present in the above passage under the title of Christ, meaning the anointed one, as co-inheritors with Y'shua, because this passage is looking ages [more than one age] into the future.
This brings to mind Revelations 22, where we see the saints reigning for the ages of the ages.
Yes.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms
of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
--Rev 11
There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
--Rev 22:5
Isaiah 60:19 The sun will no more be your light by day, nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you, for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory.
Daniel 7:27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.'
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
I really enjoyed this teaching on the Holy Spirit as the third Person of the Trinity.
There is a section in the middle where the tape goes quiet--it lasts about 3 minutes--have patience and the speaker will return--must have been some technical glitch.
Anyway, I hope some enjoy this as much as I did because the Spirit just dumps these things in my lap as I need them and it saves me a lot of work. This is a gift from Him for this thread. I never heard this preacher before and I don't know anything about him but he is saying what I would say if I put a lot of time into organizing it and presenting it.
Dr. Miles Monroe, "The Holy Spirit"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRJwaQaShUY
5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
--John 16
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father has sent me, even so send I you.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit:
--John 20:21-22
The Everlasting Covenant--The Promise of God to His people--Signed, Sealed, and Delivered
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry you in the city of Jerusalem, until you be endued with power from on high. (Luke 24:49)
By myself have I sworn, says the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. (Gen. 22:16-18)
Genesis 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
So, Let's jump into the deep water with both feet and take a quick look at the big picture--The Everlasting Covenant. Don't be alarmed that Arthur Pink is a Calvinist. As far as he went, Calvin got it right. God is bigger than any of us could even contemplate. That is why we need each other as the body of Christ. But, this great plan of God is a plan encompassing the Ages, and we are in the unique position of being among the first to enjoy its benefits. With that in mind, read this very fast and contemplate it slowly.
Part One--The Everlasting Covenant, by A.W.Pink
The Word of God opens with a brief account of creation, the making of man, and his fall. From later Scripture we have no difficulty in ascertaining that the issue of the trial to which man was subjected in Eden had been divinely foreseen. "The Lamb slain (in the purpose of God) from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8) makes it clear that, in view of the Fall, provision had been made by God for the recovery of His people who had apostatized in Adam, and that the means whereby their recovery would be effected were consistent with the claims of the divine holiness and justice. All the details and results of the plan of mercy had been arranged and settled from the beginning by divine wisdom.
That provision of grace which God made for His people before the foundation of the world embraced the appointment of His own Son to become the mediator, and of the work which, in that capacity, He should perform. This involved His assumption of human nature, the offering of Himself as a sacrifice for sin, His exaltation in the nature He had assumed to the right hand of God in the heavenlies, His supremacy over His church and over all things for His church, the blessings which He should be empowered to dispense, and the extent to which His work should be made effectual unto the salvation of souls. These were all matters of definite and certain arrangement, agreed upon between God and His Son in the terms of the everlasting covenant.
The first germinal publication of the everlasting covenant is found in Genesis 3:15 "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Thus, immediately after the Fall, God announced to the serpent his ultimate doom through the work of the Mediator, and revealed unto sinners the channel through whom alone salvation could flow to them. The continual additions which God subsequently made to the revelation He gave in Genesis 3:15 were, for a considerable time, largely through covenants He made with the fathers, covenants which were both the fruit of His eternal plan of mercy and the gradual revealing of the same unto the faithful. Only as those two facts are and held fast by us are we in any position to appreciate and perceive the force of those subordinate covenants.
God made covenants with Noah, Abraham, David; but were they, as fallen creatures, able to enter into covenant with their august and holy Maker? Were they able to stand for themselves, or be sureties for others? The very question answers itself. What, for instance, could Noah possibly do which would insure that the earth should never again be destroyed by a flood? Those subordinate covenants were less than the Lord's making manifest, in an especial and public manner, the grand covenant: making known something of its glorious contents, confirming their own personal interest in it, and assuring them that Christ, the great covenant head, should be of themselves and spring from their seed.
This is what accounts for that singular expression which occurs so frequently in Scripture: "Behold, I establish my covenant with you and your seed after you" (Gen. 9:9). Yet there follows no mention of any conditions, or work to be done by them: only a promise of unconditional blessings. And why? because the "conditions" were to be fulfilled and the "work" was to be done by Christ, and nothing remained but to bestow the blessings on His people. So when David says, "He hath made with me an everlasting covenant" (2 Sam. 23:5) he simply means, God had admitted him into an interest in the everlasting covenant and made him partaker of its privileges. Hence it is that when the apostle Paul refers to the various covenants which God had made with men in Old Testament times, he styles them not "covenants of stipulations" but covenants of promise" (Eph 2:12).
Above we have pointed out that the continual additions which God made to His original revelation of mercy in Genesis 3:15 were, for a while, given mainly through the covenants He made with the fathers. It was a process of gradual development, issuing finally in the fullness of gospel grace; the substance of those covenants indicated the outstanding stages in this process. They are the great landmarks of God's dealings with men, points from which the disclosures of the divine mind expanded into increased and established truths. As revelations they exhibited in ever augmented degrees of fullness and clearness the plan of salvation through mediation and sacrifice of the Son of God; for each of those covenants consisted of gracious promises ratified by sacrifice (Gen. 8:20; 9:9; 15:9-11, 18). Thus, those covenants were so many intimations of that method of mercy which took its rise in the eternal counsels of the divine mind.
Those divine revelations and manifestations of the grace decreed in the everlasting covenant were given out at important epochs in the early history of the world. Just as Genesis 3:15 was given immediately after the Fall, so we find that immediately following the flood God solemnly renewed the covenant of grace with Noah. In like manner, at the beginning of the third period of human history, following the call of Abraham, God renewed it again, only then making a much fuller revelation of the same. It was now made known that the coming deliverer of God's people was to be of the Abrahamic stock and that all the families of the earth should be blessed in Him—a plain intimation of the calling of the Gentiles and the bringing of the elect from all nations into the family of God. In Genesis 15:5,6, the great requirement of the covenant—namely, faith—was then more fully made known.
.....
Thus we may see how fully the covenant of grace was revealed and confirmed unto Abraham the father of all them that believe, by which he and his descendants obtained a clearer sight and understanding of the great Redeemer and the things which were to be accomplished by Him. "And therefore did Christ take notice of this when He said, Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and was glad" (John 8:56). These last words clearly intimate that Abraham had a definite spiritual apprehension of those things. Under the Sinaitic covenant a yet fuller revelation was made by God to His people of the contents of the everlasting covenant: the tabernacle, and all its holy vessels; the high priest, his vestments, and service; and the whole system of sacrifices and ablutions, setting before them its blessed realities in typical forms, they being patterns of heavenly things.
Thus, before seeking to set forth the everlasting covenant itself in a specific way, we have first endeavored to make clear the relation borne to it of the principal covenants which God was pleased to make with different men during the Old Testament era. Our sketch of them has necessarily been brief, for we shall take them up separately and consider them in fuller detail in the succeeding chapters. Yet sufficient has been said, we trust, to demonstrate that, while the terms of the covenants which God made with Noah, with Abraham, with Israel at Sinai, and with David, are to be understood, first, in their plain and natural sense, yet it should be clear to any anointed eye that they have a second and higher meaning—a spiritual content. The things of earth have been employed to represent heavenly things. In other words, those subordinate covenants need to be contemplated in both their letter and spirit.
Coming now more directly to the present aspect of our theme, let it be pointed out that, as there is no one verse in the Bible which expressly affirms there are three divine persons in the Godhead, co-eternal, coequal, co-glorious; nevertheless, by carefully comparing Scripture with Scripture we know that such is the case. In like manner there is no one verse in the Bible which categorically states that the Father entered into a formal agreement with the Son: that on His executing a certain work, He should receive a certain reward. Nevertheless, a careful study of different passages obliges us to arrive at this conclusion.
........
The language of the New Testament is very explicit in teaching us the true light in which the plan of mercy is to be viewed, and in showing the saint that he is to regard all his spiritual blessings and privileges as coming to him out of the everlasting covenant. It speaks of "the eternal purpose which God purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Eph 3:11). Our covenant oneness with Christ is clearly revealed in Ephesians 1:3-5, that marvelous declaration reaching its climax in 1:6: "to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." "Accepted in the beloved" goes deeper and means far more than "accepted through him." It denotes not merely a recommendatory passport from Christ, but a real union with Him, whereby we are incorporated into His mystical body, and made as truly partakers of His righteousness as the members of the physical body partake of the life which animates its head.
In like manner, there are many, many statements in the New Testament concerning Christ Himself which are only pertinent and intelligible in the light of His having acted in fulfillment of a covenant agreement with the Father. For example, in Luke 22:22 we find Him saying, "And truly the Son of man goeth as it was determined:" "determined" when and where but in the everlasting covenant! Plainer still is the language in John 6:38,39: "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me: and this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." Three things are there to be seen: (1) Christ had received a certain charge or commission from the Father; (2) He had solemnly engaged and undertaken to execute that charge; (3) The end contemplated in that arrangement was not merely the announcement of spiritual blessings, but the actual bestowal of them upon all who had been given to Him.
Again, from John 10:16 it is evident that a specific charge had been laid upon Christ. Referring to His elect scattered among the Gentiles He did not say "them also I will bring," but "them also I must bring." In His high priestly prayer we hear Him saying, "Father, I will that they also whom thou hast given me, be with me, where I am" (John 17:24). There Christ was claiming something that was due Him on account of or in return for the work He had done (v. 4). This clearly presupposes both an arrangement and a promise on the part of the Father. It was the surety putting in His claim. Now a claim necessarily implies a preceding promise annexed to a condition to be performed by the party to whom the promise is made, which gives a right to demand the reward. This is one reason why Christ, immediately afterward, addressed God as righteous Father, appealing to His faithfulness in the agreement.
II.
The everlasting covenant or covenant of grace is that mutual agreement into which the Father entered with His Son before the foundation of the world respecting the salvation of His elect, Christ being appointed the mediator, He willingly consenting to be their head and representative. That there is a divine covenant to which Christ stands related, and that the great work which He performed here on earth was the discharge of His covenant office, is very plain from many Scriptures, first of all, from the covenant titles which He bears. In Isaiah 42:6 we hear the Father saying to the Son: "I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles." As a covenantee in it, Christ is thus "given" unto His people, as the pledge of all its blessings (cf. Rom. 8:32). He is the representative of His people in it. He is, in His person and work, the sum and substance of it. He has fulfilled all its terms, and now dispenses its rewards.
In Malachi 3:1 Christ is designated "the messenger of the covenant," because He came here to make known its contents and proclaim its glad tidings. He came forth from the Father to reveal and publish His amazing grace for lost sinners. In Hebrews 7:22 Christ is denominated "the surety at a better covenant." A surety is one who is legally constituted the representative of others, and thereby comes under an engagement to fulfill certain obligations in their name and for their benefit. There is not a single legal obligation which the elect owed unto God but what Christ has fully and perfectly discharged; He has paid the whole debt of His insolvent people, settling all their liabilities. In Hebrews 9:16 Christ is called "the testator" of the covenant or testament, and this, because to Him belong its riches, to Him pertain its privileges; and because He has, in His unbounded goodness, bequeathed them as so many inestimable legacies unto His people.
Once more, in Hebrews 9:15 and 12:24 Christ is styled "the mediator of the new covenant," because it is by His efficacious satisfaction and prevailing intercession that all its blessings are now imparted to its beneficiaries. Christ now stands between God and His people, advocating their cause (1 John 2:1) and speaking a word in season to him that is weary Isa. 50:4). But how could Christ sustain such offices as these unless the covenant had been made with Him (Gal. 3:17) and the execution of it had been undertaken by Him (Heb. 10:5-7)? "Now the God of peace, which brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant" (Heb. 13:20): that one phrase is quite sufficient to establish the fact that an organic connection existed between the covenant of grace and the sacrifice of Christ. In response to Christ's execution of its terms, the Father now says to Him, "By the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners (those given to Him before the foundation of the world, but in Adam fallen under condemnation) out of the pit wherein is no water" (Zech. 9:11).
The covenant relationship which the mediator sustains unto God Himself is that which alone accounts for and explains the fact that He so frequently addressed Him as "my God." Every time our blessed Redeemer uttered the words "my God" He gave expression to His covenant standing before the God-head. It must be so; for considering Him as the Second Person of the Trinity, He was God, equally with the Father and the Holy Spirit. We are well aware that we are now plunging into deep waters; yet if we hold fast to the very words of Scripture we shall be safely borne through them, even though our finite minds will never be able to sound their infinite depths. "Thou art my God from my mother's belly" (Ps. 22.:10), declared the Savior. From the cross He said, "My God." On the resurrection morning He spoke of "my God" (John 20:17). And in the compass of a single verse (Rev. 3:12) we find the glorified Redeemer saying "my God" no less than four times.
What has been pointed out in the above paragraph receives confirmation in many other Scriptures. When renewing His covenant with Abraham, Jehovah said: "I will establish my covenant between me and thee, and thy seed after thee in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee" (Gen. 17:7). That is the great covenant promise: to be a God unto any one states that He will supply all their need (Phil. 4:19)—spiritual, temporal, and eternal. It is true that God is the God of all men, inasmuch as He is their Creator, Governor and judge; but He is the God of His people in a much more blessed sense. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people" (Heb. 8:10). Here again we are shown that it is with respect unto the covenant that, in a special way, God is the God of His people.
Before leaving Hebrews 8:10 let us note the blessed tenor of the covenant as expressed in the words immediately following: "And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more" (vv. 11, 12). What conditions are there here? What terms of fulfillment are required from impotent men? None at all: it is all promise from beginning to end. So too in Acts 3:25 we find Peter saying, "Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers." Here the covenant (not "covenants") is referred to generally; then it is specified particularly: "saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth" be laid under conditions? No; be required to perform certain works? No; but, "shall be blessed," without any regard to qualifications or deeds of their own—entitled by virtue of their interest in what was performed for them by their covenant head.
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Divine_Covenants/divine_covenants_01.htm
Hastings Dictionary of the Bible can help us.
Page 1015: TRINITY--The Christian doctrine of God as existing in three Persons and one Substance IS NOT DEMONSTRABLE BY LOGIC or SCRIPTURAL PROOF..."
The existence of a trinity is admittedly not demonstrable by logic or scriptural proof, however, it is called a "necessary hypothesis." I would inquire as to just why is it a "necessary hypothesis"? Why hypothesize at all, seeing that the Scriptures give us plain, factual, actual information without having to theorize or hypothesize? Let's get a definition of that word "hypothesis:"
Webster's Dictionary, hypothesis, A system or theory imagined or assumed to account for what is not understood. An unproved theory. theory, a speculative plan... a formulation of underlying principles of certain observed phenomena which has been verified to some degree... a conjecture; guess.
First of all, nowhere in the Scriptures is God referred to or called a "trinity."
Second, the word "three" is never used in reference to Who or What God is.
Third, God is never called or referred to as "a person."
Four, the holy spirit is never called "God."
Five, since Christ is the Son, He cannot also be the Father or be coequal with His Father. Christ plainly said:
"My Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28). And where in the Word of God is the Holy Spirit called a person?
I find the word personalities to define a " trinity" unscriptual. As for being made in God's image, God is Spirit Jo. 4:24.
Encyclopaedia Britannica Vol. 2, page 480:
(quote) TRINITY. Fundamental Conception.--This conception of the Trinity is systematically developed by theologians, Greek, Latin and Protestant...The doctrine, then, is primarily religious and if we define God--as in practice religion does--as 'That which has an absolute claim upon our obedience' or as 'the Supreme Object of our reverence,' the paradoxical element in the doctrine is at least diminished...Is there, then any insuperable difficulty in the notion of a threefold personal embodiment of the one Divine Will and Character, an embodiment so complete in each case that contact with the Divine Person is contact with God:...This ultimate unity of subordination to a single principle is not necessarily identical with the unity which comes from being included within the mind of a single Divine Being. Nor is it obviously identical with the theologian's 'numerical unity of substance.' The Unity, then, of the Object of our supreme reverence and trust is not plainly inconsistent with the existence of personal distinctions (in the modern sense of the word) within the Godhead. It was probably an afterthought to regard the doctrine of the Trinity as providing a more satisfactory conception of 'personality in God' than could grow up under a 'uninpersonal' theology. Yet Trinitarianism has some points of superiority over a theory which may compel us to conceive God as waking up at the Creation from 'an eternity of idleness.' ...It has been similarly argued that in conceiving the 'not-self with which God contrasts Himself' as 'wholly internal to His essence' while the unity (the Holy Spirit) 'within which the relation of the two falls is not, as in us, a dark mystery at the back of our life but something which 'proceeds from both' we have 'the best notion that we can frame of Being at its highest.' Such an argument lead not merely to a plurality but to a trinity of Divine persons, and supports the Western doctrine of the procession of the Spirit from the Father and the Son. (End of Britannica quote).
Hope you all understood that :sigh:
"Doctrine of the Trinity" By Dr. Ed DeVries, President of the School of Biblical & Theological Studies. His first paragraph makes the following statements:
"Since the word Trinity IS NOT FOUND ANYWHERE IN THE RECEIVED TEXT or in its offspring (the Authorized Version and other biblical translations derived from the received text), many argue that the doctrine of the Trinity is NOT A BIBLICAL ONE. However, when a person comes to understand the THEORY that is embodied in the terminology they can NOT HELP BUT FIND PROOF OF THE TRINITY THROUGHOUT THE BIBLE. The doctrine of the Trinity is believed by ALL Christian groups. Some groups profess to be Christian and DO NOT believe in the Trinity, however, NONE OF THESE GROUPS ARE TRULY CHRISTIAN..."
1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many;
1Co 8:6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.
1Co 8:7 Howbeit there is not in all men that knowledge:
I can understand THIS:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
--John 14
That is good that you understand. :HeartThrob:
November 18, 2010
50 Things the Holy Spirit Does
1. He convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8).
2. He guides us into all truth (John 16:13).
3. He regenerates us (John 3:5-8; Titus 3:5).
4. He glorifies and testifies of Christ (John 15:26; 16:14).
5. He reveals Christ to us and in us (John 16:14-15).
6. He leads us (Rom. 8:14; Gal. 5:18; Matt. 4:1; Luke 4:1).
7. He sanctifies us (2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:2; Rom. 5:16).
8. He empowers us (Luke 4:14; 24:49; Rom. 15:19; Acts 1:8).
9. He fills us (Eph. 5:18; Acts 2:4; 4:8, 31; 9:17).
10. He teaches us to pray (Rom. 8:26-27; Jude 1:20).
11. He bears witness in us that we are children of God (Rom. 8:16).
12. He produces in us the fruit or evidence of His work and presence (Gal. 5:22-23).
13. He distributes spiritual gifts and manifestations (the outshining) of His presence to and through the body (1 Cor. 12:4, 8-10; Heb. 2:4).
14. He anoints us for ministry (Luke 4:18; Acts 10:38).
15. He washes and renews us (Titus 3:5).
16. He brings unity and oneness to the body (Eph. 4:3; 2:14-18). Here He plays the same role that He plays in the Godhead. The Spirit is the life that unites Father and Son. He plays the same role in the church. When He is operating in a group of people, He unites them in love. Therefore, a sure evidence of the Holy Spirit working in a group is Love and Unity. Not signs and wonders (those are seasonal and can be counterfeited).
17. He is our guarantee and deposit of the future resurrection (2 Cor. 1:22; 2 Cor. 5:5).
18. He seals us unto the day of redemption (Eph. 1:13; 4:30).
19. He sets us free from the law of sin and death (Rom. 8:2).
20. He quickens our mortal bodies (Rom. 8:11).
21. He reveals the deep things of God to us (1 Cor. 2:10).
22. He reveals what has been given to us from God (1 Cor. 2:12).
23. He dwells in us (Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 3:16; 2 Tim. 1:14; John 14:17).
24. He speaks to, in, and through us (1 Cor. 12:3; 1 Tim. 4:1; Rev. 2:11; Heb 3:7; Matt. 10:20; Acts 2:4; 8:29; 10:19; 11:12, 28; 13:2; 16:6,7; 21:4,11).
25. He is the agent by which we are baptized into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).
26. He brings liberty (2 Cor. 3:17).
27. He transforms us into the image of Christ (2 Cor. 3:18).
28. He cries in our hearts, "Abba, Father" (Gal. 4:6).
29. He enables us to wait (Gal. 5:5).
30. He supplies us with Christ (Phil. 1:19, KJV).
31. He grants everlasting life (Gal. 6:8).
32. He gives us access to God the Father (Eph. 2:18).
33. He makes us (corporately) God's habitation (Eph. 2:22).
34. He reveals the mystery of God to us (Eph. 3:5).
35. He strengthens our spirits (Eph. 3:16).
36. He enables us to obey the truth (1 Pet. 1:22).
37. He enables us to know that Jesus abides in us (1 John 3:24; 4:13).
38. He confesses that Jesus came in the flesh (1 John 4:2).
39. He says "Come, Lord Jesus" along with the bride (Rev. 22:17).
40. He dispenses God's love into our hearts (Rom. 5:5).
41. He bears witness to the truth in our conscience (Rom. 9:1).
42. He teaches us (1 Cor. 2:13; John 14:26).
43. He gives us joy (1 Thess. 1:6).
44. He enables some to preach the gospel (1 Pet. 1:12).
45. He moves us (2 Pet. 1:21).
46. He knows the things of God (1 Cor. 2:11).
47. He casts out demons (Matt. 12:28).
48. He brings things to our remembrance (John 14:26).
49. He comforts us (Acts 9:31).
50. He makes some overseers in the church and sends some out to the work of church planting [through the body] (Acts 20:28; 13:2).
http://frankviola.org/2010/11/18/50-things-the-holy-spirit-does/
I see you have taken the liberty to personify the Holy Spirit as "he." Can you point out a verse of scripture that identifies the Holy Spirit as a person?
Joh_1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Joh_7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
1Th_4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
Rev_21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Quote from: Molly on June 02, 2013, 07:35:00 PM
November 18, 2010
50 Things the Holy Spirit Does
1. He convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8).
2. He guides us into all truth (John 16:13).
3. He regenerates us (John 3:5-8; Titus 3:5).
4. He glorifies and testifies of Christ (John 15:26; 16:14).
5. He reveals Christ to us and in us (John 16:14-15).
6. He leads us (Rom. 8:14; Gal. 5:18; Matt. 4:1; Luke 4:1).
7. He sanctifies us (2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:2; Rom. 5:16).
8. He empowers us (Luke 4:14; 24:49; Rom. 15:19; Acts 1:8).
9. He fills us (Eph. 5:18; Acts 2:4; 4:8, 31; 9:17).
10. He teaches us to pray (Rom. 8:26-27; Jude 1:20).
11. He bears witness in us that we are children of God (Rom. 8:16).
12. He produces in us the fruit or evidence of His work and presence (Gal. 5:22-23).
13. He distributes spiritual gifts and manifestations (the outshining) of His presence to and through the body (1 Cor. 12:4, 8-10; Heb. 2:4).
14. He anoints us for ministry (Luke 4:18; Acts 10:38).
15. He washes and renews us (Titus 3:5).
16. He brings unity and oneness to the body (Eph. 4:3; 2:14-18). Here He plays the same role that He plays in the Godhead. The Spirit is the life that unites Father and Son. He plays the same role in the church. When He is operating in a group of people, He unites them in love. Therefore, a sure evidence of the Holy Spirit working in a group is Love and Unity. Not signs and wonders (those are seasonal and can be counterfeited).
17. He is our guarantee and deposit of the future resurrection (2 Cor. 1:22; 2 Cor. 5:5).
18. He seals us unto the day of redemption (Eph. 1:13; 4:30).
19. He sets us free from the law of sin and death (Rom. 8:2).
20. He quickens our mortal bodies (Rom. 8:11).
21. He reveals the deep things of God to us (1 Cor. 2:10).
22. He reveals what has been given to us from God (1 Cor. 2:12).
23. He dwells in us (Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 3:16; 2 Tim. 1:14; John 14:17).
24. He speaks to, in, and through us (1 Cor. 12:3; 1 Tim. 4:1; Rev. 2:11; Heb 3:7; Matt. 10:20; Acts 2:4; 8:29; 10:19; 11:12, 28; 13:2; 16:6,7; 21:4,11).
25. He is the agent by which we are baptized into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).
26. He brings liberty (2 Cor. 3:17).
27. He transforms us into the image of Christ (2 Cor. 3:18).
28. He cries in our hearts, "Abba, Father" (Gal. 4:6).
29. He enables us to wait (Gal. 5:5).
30. He supplies us with Christ (Phil. 1:19, KJV).
31. He grants everlasting life (Gal. 6:8).
32. He gives us access to God the Father (Eph. 2:18).
33. He makes us (corporately) God's habitation (Eph. 2:22).
34. He reveals the mystery of God to us (Eph. 3:5).
35. He strengthens our spirits (Eph. 3:16).
36. He enables us to obey the truth (1 Pet. 1:22).
37. He enables us to know that Jesus abides in us (1 John 3:24; 4:13).
38. He confesses that Jesus came in the flesh (1 John 4:2).
39. He says "Come, Lord Jesus" along with the bride (Rev. 22:17).
40. He dispenses God's love into our hearts (Rom. 5:5).
41. He bears witness to the truth in our conscience (Rom. 9:1).
42. He teaches us (1 Cor. 2:13; John 14:26).
43. He gives us joy (1 Thess. 1:6).
44. He enables some to preach the gospel (1 Pet. 1:12).
45. He moves us (2 Pet. 1:21).
46. He knows the things of God (1 Cor. 2:11).
47. He casts out demons (Matt. 12:28).
48. He brings things to our remembrance (John 14:26).
49. He comforts us (Acts 9:31).
50. He makes some overseers in the church and sends some out to the work of church planting [through the body] (Acts 20:28; 13:2).
http://frankviola.org/2010/11/18/50-things-the-holy-spirit-does/
Thank you sweet Lady... for 50 Scriptures that will truly help me as I study the Scriptures. I use as a basic outline, a kind of three-step approach to studying/abiding in the Word... know the truth:
1. the truth (as perceived by the five senses of man)
2. the whole truth (as understood by the human mind)
3. and nothing but the truth (as received by the Spirit of God)
Blessings on all your... our efforts to not only know the TRUTH, but to share it, to live it and always in love.
"And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you [it is not "from" the holy spirit, but "from" the Father] another Comforter [this word does not require a capital letter], that he [it] may abide with you for ever [Greek: for the aion--eon or age]. Even the Spirit of truth..." (John 14:16-17 KJV).
Remember that Jesus said "I am the truth." How then can this "comforter" be coming from both His Father and Himself? Is this possible? Once we understand just what this "spirit of truth," "spirit of God," "holy spirit," "holy ghost," "comforter" really is, we will see that it certainly DOES come from both the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.
From The Concordant Literal New Testament:
John 14:16-18, "And I shall be asking the Father, and He will be giving you another consoler, that it, indeed, may be with you for the eon--the spirit of truth, which the world can not get, for it is not beholding it, neither is knowing it. Yet you know it, for it is remaining with you and will be in you. I will not leave you bereaved; I am COMING TO YOU."
Notice verse 26 of John 14:
"Now the consoler, THE HOLY SPIRIT, which the Father will be sending in MY NAME..."
And see how this is done, verse 23:
"If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and WE shall be coming to him and making OUR abode with him.
Matt. 10:20 "But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Is this "comforter" the third God of a trinity? Let us see Who this Comforter really is! Didn't you ever wonder why this Comforter could not come until Christ departed? The comforter does not come until Christ departs to the Father, because the comforter IS THE SON returning in the form of "spirit," "holy spirit." Jesus is saying to him,
"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).
"Now, whenever the consoler [comforter] which I shall be sending you from the Father..."
Notice that Christ sends the comforter from the Father and what Jesus instructs. And notice that it does not involve a third person of a fabled trinity
I have these questions as well.
If the trinity is true, how is it that Jesus Christ was CONCEIVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, but is the SON OF GOD THE FATHER???
If Jesus Christ is the one and only Supreme Deity and Almighty God of the universe, when He died on the cross, WHO resurrected Him back to life?
Also consider, if the Father, the Holy Spirit of God, and Jesus Christ are One inseparable God, then if either of the three were to die, ALL WOULD DIE.
So if God is a trinity and "The TRINITY" itself DIED, then there would be no power to resurrect anyone and we would be without any God today, in fact, we would be without ourselves or anything else in the universe. There would be one big black void!
If "God" (your trinity), DIED, then "God" died--ALL OF GOD DIED, for you say "God" is a "trinity." Maybe you would care to explain that to me? Remember now, the trinity can NOT be divided up into three separate parts, for according to you it IS the three parts that make the whole God. Did only one-third of God die for the sin of the world?
The Holy Spirit speaks to us in the first person:
2 While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
--Acts 13:2
The Holy Spirit can be grieved by us:
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
--Eph 4:30
"grieve" [not the Holy Spirit]
G3076
λυπέω
lupeō
loo-peh'-o
From G3077; to distress; reflexively or passively to be sad: - cause grief, grieve, be in heaviness, (be) sorrow (-ful), be (make) sorry.
The Holy Spirit has a will.
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
--1 Cor 1:12
The Holy Spirit can be blasphemed.
Therefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
--Mat 12:31-32
I believe--
He is our helper and our comforter, our adviser and our counselor. He has our back at all times, keeping us safely in the will of God.
Quote from: Molly on June 02, 2013, 07:35:00 PM
November 18, 2010
50 Things the Holy Spirit Does
1. He convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8).
2. He guides us into all truth (John 16:13).
3. He regenerates us (John 3:5-8; Titus 3:5).
4. He glorifies and testifies of Christ (John 15:26; 16:14).
5. He reveals Christ to us and in us (John 16:14-15).
6. He leads us (Rom. 8:14; Gal. 5:18; Matt. 4:1; Luke 4:1).
7. He sanctifies us (2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:2; Rom. 5:16).
8. He empowers us (Luke 4:14; 24:49; Rom. 15:19; Acts 1:8).
9. He fills us (Eph. 5:18; Acts 2:4; 4:8, 31; 9:17).
10. He teaches us to pray (Rom. 8:26-27; Jude 1:20).
11. He bears witness in us that we are children of God (Rom. 8:16).
12. He produces in us the fruit or evidence of His work and presence (Gal. 5:22-23).
13. He distributes spiritual gifts and manifestations (the outshining) of His presence to and through the body (1 Cor. 12:4, 8-10; Heb. 2:4).
14. He anoints us for ministry (Luke 4:18; Acts 10:38).
15. He washes and renews us (Titus 3:5).
16. He brings unity and oneness to the body (Eph. 4:3; 2:14-18). Here He plays the same role that He plays in the Godhead. The Spirit is the life that unites Father and Son. He plays the same role in the church. When He is operating in a group of people, He unites them in love. Therefore, a sure evidence of the Holy Spirit working in a group is Love and Unity. Not signs and wonders (those are seasonal and can be counterfeited).
17. He is our guarantee and deposit of the future resurrection (2 Cor. 1:22; 2 Cor. 5:5).
18. He seals us unto the day of redemption (Eph. 1:13; 4:30).
19. He sets us free from the law of sin and death (Rom. 8:2).
20. He quickens our mortal bodies (Rom. 8:11).
21. He reveals the deep things of God to us (1 Cor. 2:10).
22. He reveals what has been given to us from God (1 Cor. 2:12).
23. He dwells in us (Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 3:16; 2 Tim. 1:14; John 14:17).
24. He speaks to, in, and through us (1 Cor. 12:3; 1 Tim. 4:1; Rev. 2:11; Heb 3:7; Matt. 10:20; Acts 2:4; 8:29; 10:19; 11:12, 28; 13:2; 16:6,7; 21:4,11).
25. He is the agent by which we are baptized into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).
26. He brings liberty (2 Cor. 3:17).
27. He transforms us into the image of Christ (2 Cor. 3:18).
28. He cries in our hearts, "Abba, Father" (Gal. 4:6).
29. He enables us to wait (Gal. 5:5).
30. He supplies us with Christ (Phil. 1:19, KJV).
31. He grants everlasting life (Gal. 6:8).
32. He gives us access to God the Father (Eph. 2:18).
33. He makes us (corporately) God's habitation (Eph. 2:22).
34. He reveals the mystery of God to us (Eph. 3:5).
35. He strengthens our spirits (Eph. 3:16).
36. He enables us to obey the truth (1 Pet. 1:22).
37. He enables us to know that Jesus abides in us (1 John 3:24; 4:13).
38. He confesses that Jesus came in the flesh (1 John 4:2).
39. He says "Come, Lord Jesus" along with the bride (Rev. 22:17).
40. He dispenses God's love into our hearts (Rom. 5:5).
41. He bears witness to the truth in our conscience (Rom. 9:1).
42. He teaches us (1 Cor. 2:13; John 14:26).
43. He gives us joy (1 Thess. 1:6).
44. He enables some to preach the gospel (1 Pet. 1:12).
45. He moves us (2 Pet. 1:21).
46. He knows the things of God (1 Cor. 2:11).
47. He casts out demons (Matt. 12:28).
48. He brings things to our remembrance (John 14:26).
49. He comforts us (Acts 9:31).
50. He makes some overseers in the church and sends some out to the work of church planting [through the body] (Acts 20:28; 13:2).
http://frankviola.org/2010/11/18/50-things-the-holy-spirit-does/
Out of all those verses is there one that introduces the Holy Spirit as a seperate person that is not of or from the Father? ALL SPIRITS ARE IN SUBJECTION TO THE FATHER--NONE ARE EQUAL TO OR WITH THE FATHER, because we have Scriptural proof that God is superior to all spirits, seeing that:
"Yet shall we not much rather be subjected to the FATHER OF SPIRITS..." (Heb. 12:9)
26 Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. 27 There is only the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. 28 For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God's mercy to us. 30 For we know the one who said,
"I will take revenge.
I will pay them back."
--Heb 10
"insulted and disdained" [the Holy Spirit]
G1796
ἐνυβρίζω
enubrizō
en-oo-brid'-zo
From G1722 and G5195; to insult: - do despite unto.
Yes, the word of God is true and the Holy Spirit of God can be insulted.
The Holy Spirit is all over the Old Testament. Here the Lord chides his people for not consulting either himself or the Holy Spirit before taking action.
30:1 "The rebellious children are as good as dead," says the Lord,
"those who make plans without consulting me,
who form alliances without consulting my Spirit,
and thereby compound their sin.
30:2 They travel down to Egypt
without seeking my will,
seeking Pharaoh's protection,
and looking for safety in Egypt's protective shade.
30:3 But Pharaoh's protection will bring you nothing but shame,
and the safety of Egypt's protective shade nothing but humiliation.
--Isa 30
The Prophet Daniel had the indwelt Holy Spirit, and it is fascinating how this was perceived by King Nebuchadnezzar and his pagan Priests. They called it, "the spirit of the holy gods." This is the way it looked to them, not understanding that God is one.
King Nebuchadnezzar was later to testify himself to the supremacy and power of Daniel's God and Daniel was promoted to the highest office in the land.
8 Finally, Daniel came into my presence and I told him the dream. (He is called Belteshazzar, after the name of my god, and the spirit of the holy gods is in him.) 9 I said, "Belteshazzar, chief of the magicians, I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in you, and no mystery is too difficult for you. Here is my dream; interpret it for me (Daniel 4:8-9).
"This is the dream that I, King Nebuchadnezzar, had. Now, Belteshazzar, tell me what it means, for none of the wise men in my kingdom can interpret it for me. But you can, because the spirit of the holy gods is in you" (Daniel 4:18).
There is a man in your kingdom who has the spirit of the holy gods in him. In the time of your father he was found to have insight and intelligence and wisdom like that of the gods. King Nebuchadnezzar your father—your father the king, I say—appointed him chief of the magicians, enchanters, astrologers and diviners. 14 I have heard that the spirit of the gods is in you and that you have insight, intelligence and outstanding wisdom (Daniel 5:11).
What is your point? God is Spirit, He is the Father of spirits.
"has the spirit of the holy gods in him" ?
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
So we first see evidence of what the pagan priests might have referred to as the holy gods in Gen 1:26
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
And, Gen 3:22
22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil.
In fact, the very word God [as used, for instance, in Gen 3:22], is commonly understood to be plural
"God"
H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
And, of course, understanding as we do that we are all individuals with unique abilities and characteristics, and yet are one in Christ, and one as the body of Christ, this would make perfect sense. I do not lose my individuality when I become one with the body of Christ, nor am I expected to do so because I believe our God delights in the unique characteristics of his creation, as would any creator.
But we have the mind of Christ. [1 Cor 2:16]
John 15:15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
I see the Holy spirit as one of the cherubs and Jesus as the other...that overshadow the ark..with the mercy throne of
God above and in the center. thus you have the 'word of God" manna from heaven[hidden who reveals]
/testimony.. the ark..and the interpreter[who takes
from what is mine..and declares it to you..in the HOLY OF HOLIES[that holy thing[Jesus] and the Holy spirit..and the
Most High and Holy God.HOLY HOLY HOLY... This as a shadow of the heavenly reality....
btw Molly,I have really enjoyed your posts...also that you-tube video ...I watched it this morning... :thumbsup:
I also see Jesus/cherub..and His blood as a covering cherub..and the Holy spirit poured out as a covering cherub...they also
are two wittnesses being sons of oil...Jesus a branch on the Mount of Olives,and the Holy spirit as the oil trees..
Father has a thing about two or three wittness to establish something... God testifies,Jesus testifies and the Holy spirit
testifies. all in accord with one another.
where-ever two or three are gathered togather in my name.
Amen, Sheila, to both posts. :thumbsup:
26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
--Acts 8
We see in verse 29 the Holy Spirit is speaking to Philip, giving him instruction regarding the man in the chariot. But, if we look at verse 26, we see that it is the angel of the Lord who first sends Philip in the direction of the chariot.
Question: Am I the only one who sees' the angel of the Lord' in verse 26 as being the same person as the Holy Spirit in verse 29 ?
Or were the disciples talking to more than one supernatural being? Notice how Philip does exactly what he's told to do, even though, in this case, it involves interrupting the journey of a powerful stranger.
I do not believe that I have stated or implied that the Holy Spirit does not entreat, inspire, communicate with man, the spirit of the Lord WAS,IS, AND WILL BE. "el-o-heem'" is plural, plural could be 2 or more, plural could be 3, 5, 7, 9, etc. Religion and theology along with the carnal mind have theorized because of the mentioning The Lord God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit that 3 is plural.
It was asked is there any mention, in the Bible, that the Holy Spirit is identified as a person? I say no.
I am not disputing the power and workings of the Holy Spirit, I am not denying the Holy Spirit as real. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the very power, the energy, by which and through which, The Lord gets everything done.
There is no mention of "trinity" in the Bible, so why is there such a doctrine? Perhaps the same way religion and theology teach "hell" as a place of eternal torment?
Admitting that the trinity teaching is false and not biblical, does not deny the Holy Spirit as being real.
"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." For me, that's what the Spirit of the Lord God does.......MOVES, the Holy Spirit or Spirit of the Lord God is WIND and that wind can be kind and a soft builder and grower, as well as destruction, mighty and strong is also a facet. Still all is done in love. :dsunny:
"The Spirit of ...God..moves"
He also speaks. His voice can be heard by the ears. As if he is speaking the words through a mouth, His mouth.
He does other things as well.
But, in the passage I quoted, He is telling Philip what to do and Philip does it, even though it involves running after a chariot in the middle of the desert in the middle of the night to talk to a powerful stranger.
Question: Are 'the angel of the Lord" and the Holy Spirit the same supernatural being in Acts 8?
We see how close Philip is to the Spirit and how comfortable he feels. He thinks nothing of jumping out of bed in the middle of the night because he has been told to and going into the desert, all the time having no idea why.
He is willing to do what he is told, so as to be an instrument of God.
wow.
"Move," can be speaking as well.
By the way, where do you get the "he"?
Act 8:26 And a messenger of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, `Arise, and go on toward the south, on the way that is going down from Jerusalem to Gaza,' --this is desert.
Act 8:29 And the Spirit said to Philip, `Go near, and be joined to this chariot;'
Act 8:39 and when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, and the eunuch saw him no more, for he was going on his way rejoicing;
Now there you have the moving of the Spirit of the Lord God.
Yes, Philip is supernaturally translated from one place to another by the Holy Spirit.
This happens in the Old Testament as well.
1Moreover
the Spirit lifted me up, and brought me unto the east gate of the Lord's house, which looketh eastward: and behold at the door of the gate five and twenty men; among whom I saw Jaazaniah the son of Azur, and Pelatiah the son of Benaiah, princes of the people.
2
Then said he unto me, Son of man, these are the men that devise mischief, and give wicked counsel in this city:
--Eze 11
QuoteBy the way, where do you get the "he"?
Where do I get 'He' for God? How do I know it is not God, Goddess, All that will? From the Bible, that's where.
But, my question remains.
PS I've also heard His voice. There is no question the Holy Spirit is a 'He.' The most beautiful male voice I have ever heard.
"Yes, Philip is supernaturally translated from one place to another by the Holy Spirit."
No denying Philip was caught up in the spirit.
And no denying as well that Ezekiel was lifted up in the spirit and shown things.
And I do believe that the Lord God is a He for HE said Deu 6:4 `Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah;
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.'
I as well have been honored and humbled to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit of the Lord, whether that voice was male, I know not.
You wrote, "But, my question remains." What was that question?
My question remains as well, in the Bible where is the Holy Spirit indentified as a person? The trinity theory speaks of 3 persons in one.
I have not denied the spiritual reality of the Holy Spirit working and moving within God's creation through out the Word of God... was, is, and will be.
QuoteMy question remains as well, in the Bible where is the Holy Spirit indentified as a person? The trinity theory speaks of 3 persons in one.
I have not denied the spiritual reality of the Holy Spirit working and moving within God's creation through out the Word of God... was, is, and will be.
Love your persuing the Truth Micah !!!
Great question too .
I asked the same ones over and over for years now
God has every thing precise and consistent and perfectly set , in patterns , there are many pattrens of 3's if you look for them and 2's and 4 's sevens 12's etc . an example the tabernacle is a 3 pattern inner court outer court and holy of holies =3
I went digging and found these that helps ease the " burning question " of having to know , it helped me alot
so I decided to share this , just my own comfort mind you , I will always suggest a person look and dig and search for yourself , thats the best peace you can get for them questions
In the begining we see that in Gen 1 , God made them male and female and called them Adam
so you see the image or likeness a mirror of reflection is a clue to me God has male and female / Wisdom of God is the female sophia [greek word ]
how can you have a son = Jesus Christ without the male and female as ONE flesh ?
God in His wisdom formed this very patteren in the natural realm to show us the Spiritual realm
So the Holy Spirit to me is the Father and Mother =Wisdom of proverbs where Jesus Christ was always the Son of God
these 3 are as One flesh, One Spirit One Faith = One etc ... Paul goes on the speak of the flesh as being celestial in 1CORNTH 15
Be well in your search Micah , theyare fill of treasures to seek out and find , very satisfying to the hungry soul
perhaps Gods soul is His female side ? I am not certain why the pattern of body , soul and Spirit are also a 3 pattern , but there are many of them thoughout His Word ..
In the same way Eve come out of Adam , so may have Wisdom come out of God
there is also the pattern of seven and in the fulness of the 7 spirits of God , one is wisdom
on one stone =Christ Jesus .
Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory
Pro 3:19 The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.
Pro 3:21 My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion:
Pro 4:5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget [it] not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.
Pro 4:7 Wisdom [is] the principal thing; [therefore] get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Pro 4:11 I have taught thee in the way of wisdom; I have led thee in right paths.
Pro 5:1 My son, attend unto my wisdom, [and] bow thine ear to my understanding:
Pro 7:4 Say unto wisdom, Thou [art] my sister; and call understanding [thy] kinswoman:
Pro 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
Pro 8:5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.
--Ex 23
He we see an Angel who
1)will go before the Israelites and keep them in the way
2)bring them to a place prepared by God
3) will not pardon their transgressions against him
4)who has God's name in him
5)who has the voice of God. [they are to obey his voice and 'do all that I speak'--so it is the voice of God]
Is this Angel the Holy Spirit?
Is this the same Angel of the Lord we see in Acts 8:26?
26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. Acts 8
Raphael's painting of the Angel of the Lord rescuing Peter out of the prison.
Is this the Holy Spirit?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Deliveranceofstpeter.jpg
5 Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.
6 And when Herod would have brought him forth, the same night Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains: and the keepers before the door kept the prison.
7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.
8 And the angel said unto him, Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And so he did. And he saith unto him, Cast thy garment about thee, and follow me.
9 And he went out, and followed him; and wist not that it was true which was done by the angel; but thought he saw a vision.
10 When they were past the first and the second ward, they came unto the iron gate that leadeth unto the city; which opened to them of his own accord: and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel departed from him.
11 And when Peter was come to himself, he said, Now I know of a surety, that the Lord hath sent his angel, and hath delivered me out of the hand of Herod, and from all the expectation of the people of the Jews.
12 And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying.
13 And as Peter knocked at the door of the gate, a damsel came to hearken, named Rhoda.
14 And when she knew Peter's voice, she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in, and told how Peter stood before the gate.
15 And they said unto her, Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, It is his angel.
16 But Peter continued knocking: and when they had opened the door, and saw him, they were astonished.
--Acts 12
Is the Holy Spirit the Angel of the Lord's presence?
8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
--Isa 63
I see that this thread was started a few days ago and I have been away from my computer for the past few days. I would like to respond by saying thank you to Molly for starting this thread. Like most of you I am trying to sift through the lies for the truth. I have known in my own mind that the trinity was a false pagan doctrine which dates back a thousand years or so before Christ was born. The "Christians have always done a great job of spinning pagan doctrines into "Christian" doctrines. I suppose that it made "Christianity more palatable to the heathens. Now many years after the creation of the trinity theory people are still under the veil and cannot see the forest for the trees. Blindly they except what Yahweh calls "the traditions/doctrines of men.
Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
By the way I also want to thank everyone who has participated in this thread. It has been not only enlightening but also has confirmed to me that which I already believed to be the truth.
Just a note, from Genesis to Revelation "angel" is a messenger. H4397 mal'âk G32 aggelo
Yes I know in the definition it says angel, why?
Celestial- Heaven: above the sky;
(through the idea of elevation); the sky
lofty, elevated.
I suggest man's imagination offers "angel" as some thing(one) other than a messenger.
"Is the Holy Spirit the Angel of the Lord's presence?" Molly
Yes, the Holy Spirit is the messenger of the Lord's presence.
What about Michael , (who is like God ?) the arc angel , your prince who stands with Jesus Angel of the Lord s presence
I do not see him as the Holy Spirit though , just my opinion , could be wrong though ... :dunno2:
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Dan 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
At least let's get the definition of angel correct.
One of the definitions of the Hebrew word, "malak," is angel. So to say angel means messenger is a little silly. Malak means angel It also means messenger. It also means someone dispatched as a deputy. It also means prophet, priest, teacher, ambassador, and king.
H4397
מלאך
mal'âk
mal-awk'
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.
Quote from: rosered on June 04, 2013, 12:07:18 AM
What about Michael , (who is like God ?) the arc angel , your prince who stands with Jesus Angel of the Lord s presence
I do not see him as the Holy Spirit though , just my opinion , could be wrong though ... :dunno2:
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Dan 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Yes, Michael is specifically identified as the prince of God's people. That's makes him the supernatural being who is the leader of God's holy people, as the princes of the tribes of Israel, or the ministers of churches, were leaders of God's people on earth. We see him in Dan 10:13 fighting another supernatural being, the prince of Persia.
Don't the JW's consider him to be Jesus? Others call him an archangel. But, I don't really want to talk about angels, but about the revelation of the third person of the trinity because we already know the first two, Father and Son, very well. The third person of the trinity gets mostly ignored by the modern church, which I think is contrary to the position by some on this thread that traditions of men are taught about the HS. Actually, almost nothing is taught about the HS.
And, I do think the role of the HS is going to become more important to God's church in the next few years, as it was in the early church. He is mostly ignored by people who are not in trouble, imo. And, the church is not only ignoring things, but falling away today, imo.
That is why I keep asking, where do we see the HS working in the Bible? If a supernatural being rescued me from prison, I would consider that to be the Holy Spirit.
PS I didn't start this thread. But, since it's here, it is a topic near and dear to my heart...
I think that when men are confronted by a supernatural being who helps them, the first instinct is to call him an 'angel.' We see the angel of the Lord all over the Old Testament and even in the New Testament. But, wouldn't all angels be angels of the Lord? Yet
the angel of the Lord speaks with the voice of God.
QuoteYes, Michael is specifically identified as the prince of God's people. That's makes him the supernatural being who is the leader of God's holy people, as the princes of the tribes of Israel, or the ministers of churches, were leaders of God's people on earth. We see him in Dan 10:13 fighting another supernatural being, the prince of Persia.
Don't the JW's consider him to be Jesus? Others call him an archangel. But, I don't really want to talk about angels, but about the revelation of the third person of the trinity because we already know the first two, Father and Son, very well. The third person of the trinity gets mostly ignored by the modern church, which I think is contrary to the position by some on this thread that traditions of men are taught about the HS. Actually, almost nothing is taught about the HS.
And, I do think the role of the HS is going to become more important to God's church in the next few years, as it was in the early church. He is mostly ignored by people who are not in trouble, imo. And, the church is not only ignoring things, but falling away today, imo.
That is why I keep asking, where do we see the HS working in the Bible? If a supernatural being rescued me from prison, I would consider that to be the Holy Spirit.
PS I didn't start this thread. But, since it's here, it is a topic near and dear to my heart...
I think that when men are confronted by a supernatural being who helps them, the first instinct is to call him an 'angel.' We see the angel of the Lord all over the Old Testament and even in the New Testament. But, wouldn't all angels be angels of the Lord? Yet the angel of the Lord speaks with the voice of God.
I sure understand Molly , and was only hoping to help
I again believe its the Father Son and Holy Spirit [ Wisdom ] of God
if you place that heavenly Wisdom of God with Holy Spirit you will be pleasently surprised
I find here the Angel of the Lord tells Joseph that she/Mary is concieved of the Holy Ghost /Spirit
how can the angel of the Lord than be the Holy Spirit but by Gods Wisdom ?
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold,
the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife:
for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
I also know if you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit / Ghost you have not forgiveness in this age or the age to come
this being Gods Wisdom , you speak against His Wisdom you have no remedy not help nor anything
I just was sharing thats all God bless you in your searching these things out
your always a Blessing Molly , love you !
micah 7:9
Just some words of encouragement brother. I commend you on every one of your posts. You have some very good points in your posts that aren't being addressed here. Since we are talking about the trinity theory its only fair if people defending the said theory would please use scripture that proves the trinity theory has been proven and can now be something other than a theory by some very clever men. No one can argue that the word trinity is not used in the KJV or his little brother kjv.
Keep up the good work sharing the truth with us here. :banana:
Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Quote from: Molly on June 04, 2013, 03:26:11 AM
Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Is this verse the proof that proves the trinity without a doubt? Sorry I don't read it that way at all. No one here is denying the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. My point is that their relationship is clearly just that not a trinity. Labels are a terrible way of explaining the unexplainable.
Hi DuWayne the pattern of 3 are thoughout the Word
many , many of them , this is the best proof I havew is it signifying the 3 as ONE to me it sure does , but than there are those who would deny these scriptures :sigh:
Gods word translation 1John 5 6 This Son of God is Jesus Christ, who came by water and blood. He didn't come with water only, but with water and with blood. The Spirit is the one who verifies this, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 There are three witnesses:[a] 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood. These three witnesses agree.
KJV6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
6 This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three who testify[a]: 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and the three agree as one.
1 John 5
GOD'S WORD Translation (GW)
6 This Son of God is Jesus Christ, who came by water and blood. He didn't come with water only, but with water and with blood. The Spirit is the one who verifies this, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 There are three witnesses:[a] 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood. These three witnesses agree.
This version is closer to the original text and does not imply the excepted trinity theory that KJV is pushing on all who will follow him and his superior (not) translating expertise.
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 04, 2013, 05:32:38 AM
1 John 5
GOD'S WORD Translation (GW)
6 This Son of God is Jesus Christ, who came by water and blood. He didn't come with water only, but with water and with blood. The Spirit is the one who verifies this, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 There are three witnesses:[a] 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood. These three witnesses agree.
This version is closer to the original text and does not imply the excepted trinity theory that KJV is pushing on all who will follow him and his superior (not) translating expertise.
Hi DuWayne
One must study and find for himself whats Truth , God promises to give it to you and no man can take that way from you , true treasures in the heart , that does not shake you when aked what faith you have in God and that hope is in your own heart .
For me there is God the Father of all creation
whom sent His Son Jesus as Savior and sacrifice and now we know that we have not seen God at any time right ?
but yet we do have the Holy Spirit , Gods seal , teacher , comforter and stays with you and in you , the Very Spirit of Truth
Gods word John 14
23 Jesus answered him, "Those who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and we will go to them and make our home with them.
24 A person who doesn't love me doesn't do what I say. I don't make up what you hear me say. What I say comes from the Father who sent me.
25 "I have told you this while I'm still with you.
26 However, the helper, the Holy Spirit,
whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything. He will remind you of everything that I have ever told you.
this applies for all whom follow Jesus
Jesus talks to the woman at the well, the first person to whom he reveals himself as the Messiah:
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
--John 4
This verse is talking about the new body of Christ who will worship the Father with the indwelt Holy Spirit because that is the only way we can worship him in Spirit and in truth. The indwelt Holy Spirit gives us a direct connection to the Father.
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; [1 Cor 6:19]
Corinthians 3:16 Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in your midst?
2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."
We are the temple of the Holy Spirit, also known as the temple of God, also known as God's temple, also known as the temple of the living God.
The indwelt Holy Spirit is a huge piece of the implementation of the New Covenant.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
--Jer 31
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
---Heb 8
truly,I beleive christendom's doctrine of the trinity is a carnal/lower fleshly understanding.I also know that there is
a very High understanding to that earthly shadow of the mercy seat/shekinah light/atonement ark and two cherubs
in the HOLY OF HOLIES. There is lower understanding..that is even twisted by carnal minded..and there is a very
high spiritual understanding/mind of Christ.
If God be in Christ and Christ be in God,and the Holy spirit be in the Holy of Holies..and they are all in you..what is in you..
the pirit of God,the Holy spirit and the spirit of Christ?
I pray Father,that they may be where I am..that they may be one.
reconciliation is oneness in heart mind body with another. You enter that holy of Holy place through them dwelling in you
reconcile....to bring togather..........
Sheila, :thumbsup:
Indwelt by the Father
(Ephesians 4:6 ) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Indwelt by the Son
(Colossians 1:27 ) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Indwelt by the Holy Spirit
(1 Corinthians 3:16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
The current mainstream teaching in Christianity is that God is a coequal, coeternal, one-substance trinity, and that Jesus Christ is God. This doctrine is considered by many as the cornerstone of Christianity, but where did this doctrine come from? The historical record is overwhelming that the church of the first three centuries did not worship God as a coequal, coeternal, con-substantial, one-substance three in one mysterious godhead. The early church worshiped one God and believed in a subordinate Son. The trinity originated with Babylon, and was passed on to most of the world's religions. This polytheistic (believing in more than one god) trinitarianism was intertwined with Greek religion and philosophy and slowly worked its way into Christian thought and creeds some 300 years after Christ. Here is the url for the rest of this article. http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.htm (http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.htm) ( I do not support this site, only that I agree with the findings of the pagan origins of the pagan trinity theory).
I have concluded that those of us not believing in man made doctrines/hypothesis do not have to show proof against the trinity theory. Since it is not mentioned by name or implied anywhere in the Word of God it is the responsibility of the trinity theory believers to prove what it is that they believe. I believe in the bible always and likewise always refuse the traditions of men and man made ways of explaining things that they don't understand.
I personally want to thank everyone here for participation in this debate and for keeping it civil.
DuWayne
Yes been trying to say that Shelia in other words , yet , I know none whom if the Lords Holy Spirit does not teach them spiritual things not fully grown we all lack understanding , they will never understand the patterns of the 3's in holy writ nor the ability to process those types and shadows of the good things to come , till the Light/Knowledge of Gods wisdom increases , I for one am just now being able to process this after so long a time :eek:
truly the carnal mind / babes is an emnity against the Spirit [teacher ] and none have till the Lord God Almighty sees fit to give it , that is just how it is set
◄ 1 Corinthians 2:13 ►
New International Version (©2011)
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.
New Living Translation (©2007)
When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths.
English Standard Version (©2001)
And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people.
International Standard Version (©2012)
We don't speak about these things with words taught us by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, as we explain spiritual things to spiritual people.
NET Bible (©2006)
And we speak about these things, not with words taught us by human wisdom, but with those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
But those things we speak are not in the teaching of the words of the wisdom of men, but in the teaching of The Spirit, and we compare spiritual things to the spiritual.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
We don't speak about these things using teachings that are based on intellectual arguments like people do. Instead, we use the Spirit's teachings. We explain spiritual things to those who have the Spirit.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
American King James Version
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
American Standard Version
Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual words .
Douay-Rheims Bible
Which things also we speak, not in the learned words of human wisdom; but in the doctrine of the Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Darby Bible Translation
which also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, communicating spiritual things by spiritual means.
English Revised Version
Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Webster's Bible Translation
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Weymouth New Testament
Of these we speak--not in language which man's wisdom teaches us, but in that which the Spirit teaches--adapting, as we do, spiritual words to spiritual truths.
World English Bible
Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things.
Young's Literal Translation
which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing,
I should have said this first lol , for as the old belief system of the trinity , not exactly
but all things come from One God , yet there is the pattern of the 3 that cannot be denied in scripture as distint purposes , just what my thoughts are about all this , I never want to argue over our faith , its pointness !
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 04, 2013, 03:45:13 PM
The current mainstream teaching in Christianity is that God is a coequal, coeternal, one-substance trinity, and that Jesus Christ is God. This doctrine is considered by many as the cornerstone of Christianity, but where did this doctrine come from? The historical record is overwhelming that the church of the first three centuries did not worship God as a coequal, coeternal, con-substantial, one-substance three in one mysterious godhead. The early church worshiped one God and believed in a subordinate Son. The trinity originated with Babylon, and was passed on to most of the world's religions. This polytheistic (believing in more than one god) trinitarianism was intertwined with Greek religion and philosophy and slowly worked its way into Christian thought and creeds some 300 years after Christ. Here is the url for the rest of this article. http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.htm (http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.htm) ( I do not support this site, only that I agree with the findings of the pagan origins of the pagan trinity theory).
I have concluded that those of us not believing in man made doctrines/hypothesis do not have to show proof against the trinity theory. Since it is not mentioned by name or implied anywhere in the Word of God it is the responsibility of the trinity theory believers to prove what it is that they believe. I believe in the bible always and likewise always refuse the traditions of men and man made ways of explaining things that they don't understand.
I personally want to thank everyone here for participation in this debate and for keeping it civil.
DuWayne
:dsunny:
Deu_17:6 At the mouth of
two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Below are 3 witnesses
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is
one LORD:
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are
one. Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be
one, even as we are one:
This thread has brought up some old memories for me. I remember when I was very young, my mother told me I had my own guardian angel whose job it was to protect me. This made me feel great because I was often fending for myself among the wolves, but shortly after that, I was walking home from school on top of a huge snowbank and tripped and started sliding head first into the street at a busy corner. This all happened very fast. I stopped sliding so close to a passing car that I could almost feel the tire singe my eyelashes. I was staring at the writing on a tire wall as it brushed past my face. Maybe two inches further and my head would have been under the tire. In a world of no friction, something caught me by the feet and stopped my slide head first into the street After that, I believed her. Of course, grown up now, I can find scripture to support it.
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 18
Nevertheless, things progressed and problems got bigger and even more complicated. Even so, I was always protected, but the protection itself became more and more complicated, and later, looking back, I realized that maybe this or that episode in my life required some type of super angel to intervene. For this reason, I was struck when I first learned about the Parakletos, the Helper.
I will not leave you an orphan...
I will pray the Father and He shall give you another Helper [Parakletos].
"The New Testament includes over 90 references to the Holy Spirit.[4] The sacredness of the Holy Spirit is affirmed in all three Synoptic Gospels which proclaim blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as the unforgivable sin.[5] The Holy Spirit plays a key role in the Pauline epistles.[6] In the Johannine writings, three separate terms, "Holy Spirit", "Spirit of Truth" and "Paraclete" are used.[7]
The New Testament details a close relationship between the Holy Spirit and Jesus during his earthly life and ministry.[8] The Gospels of Luke and Matthew and the Nicene Creed state that Jesus was "conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary."[9] The Holy Spirit descended on Jesus as a dove during his Baptism, and in his Farewell Discourse after the Last Supper Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to his disciples after his departure.[10][11]C
The theology of the Holy Spirit is called pneumatology. The Holy Spirit is referred to as the Lord and Giver of Life in the Nicene Creed. The participation of the Holy Spirit in the tripartite nature of conversion is apparent in Jesus' final post-Resurrection instruction to his disciples at the end of the Gospel of Matthew (28:19): "make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".[12] Since the first century, Christians have also called upon God with the name "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" in prayer, absolution and benediction.[13][14]"
The sacredness of the Holy Spirit is affirmed in all three Synoptic Gospels (Matthew 12:30-32, Mark 3:28-30 and Luke 12:8-10) which proclaim that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin.[5]
--Wikipedia
Clearly this is a serious and deep topic. But, for me, the Holy Spirit has always been my companion in the trenches of life, fighting side by side with me in all endeavors, watching my back, and walking before me, making my path smooth through the most treacherous of waters. It's not a matter of theology for me, but a matter of how I live my life. He was doing this before I ever noticed it, but once I began to notice it, His presence seemed to increase.
Yes, He can imbue us with the power of God, teach us, show us all things, sanctify us, and prepare His temple for the presence of the Father and the Son, but to a woman [sheep] walking alone in the world, He is, quite simply, the Strong Man at her side. And, for this, I am eternally grateful.
Where shall I go from your Spirit? or where shall I flee from your presence? 8If I ascend up into heaven, you are there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, you are there. 9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10Even there shall your hand lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.
---Psalm 139
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vienna_Karlskirche_frescos4b.jpg
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 04, 2013, 03:45:13 PM
The current mainstream teaching in Christianity is that God is a coequal, coeternal, one-substance trinity, and that Jesus Christ is God. This doctrine is considered by many as the cornerstone of Christianity, but where did this doctrine come from? The historical record is overwhelming that the church of the first three centuries did not worship God as a coequal, coeternal, con-substantial, one-substance three in one mysterious godhead. The early church worshiped one God and believed in a subordinate Son. The trinity originated with Babylon, and was passed on to most of the world's religions. This polytheistic (believing in more than one god) trinitarianism was intertwined with Greek religion and philosophy and slowly worked its way into Christian thought and creeds some 300 years after Christ. Here is the url for the rest of this article. http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.htm (http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.htm) ( I do not support this site, only that I agree with the findings of the pagan origins of the pagan trinity theory).
I have concluded that those of us not believing in man made doctrines/hypothesis do not have to show proof against the trinity theory. Since it is not mentioned by name or implied anywhere in the Word of God it is the responsibility of the trinity theory believers to prove what it is that they believe. I believe in the bible always and likewise always refuse the traditions of men and man made ways of explaining things that they don't understand.
I personally want to thank everyone here for participation in this debate and for keeping it civil.
DuWayne
I read the linked article from beginning to end, and I think the light is coming on for me:
God is God
Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son - subordinate, not co-equal.
The Holy Spirit is God's Breath/Spirit/Life Force, not God. There are Seven Spirits - they do their work and return to God.
I have said before, I have not and do not deny the existence or the moving and works of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the wisdom and power of the Lord God. The Holy Spirit is real. The Lord God is ONE, not a trinity.
The son came out from the God/Father, Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
I believe the power or energy, that caused the "coming out" is the Holy Spirit. :dsunny:
P.S. Spurious Passages in the Bible
Matthew 28:19-- the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit *
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 04, 2013, 05:32:07 PM
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 04, 2013, 03:45:13 PM
The current mainstream teaching in Christianity is that God is a coequal, coeternal, one-substance trinity, and that Jesus Christ is God. This doctrine is considered by many as the cornerstone of Christianity, but where did this doctrine come from? The historical record is overwhelming that the church of the first three centuries did not worship God as a coequal, coeternal, con-substantial, one-substance three in one mysterious godhead. The early church worshiped one God and believed in a subordinate Son. The trinity originated with Babylon, and was passed on to most of the world's religions. This polytheistic (believing in more than one god) trinitarianism was intertwined with Greek religion and philosophy and slowly worked its way into Christian thought and creeds some 300 years after Christ. Here is the url for the rest of this article. http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.htm (http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.htm) ( I do not support this site, only that I agree with the findings of the pagan origins of the pagan trinity theory).
I have concluded that those of us not believing in man made doctrines/hypothesis do not have to show proof against the trinity theory. Since it is not mentioned by name or implied anywhere in the Word of God it is the responsibility of the trinity theory believers to prove what it is that they believe. I believe in the bible always and likewise always refuse the traditions of men and man made ways of explaining things that they don't understand.
I personally want to thank everyone here for participation in this debate and for keeping it civil.
DuWayne
:dsunny:
Deu_17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Below are 3 witnesses
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:[/u]
Are you saying we are the third witness as we are brought into oneness with the Father and the Son?
Because if you are, I couldn't agree more. It is the Holy Spirit, under the command of Jesus and the Father, who ushers us into the family of God, allowing us to share his third place in the 'trinity' of the Godhead.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."--Rev 1:8
Through the Holy Spirit we are the "is to come" part of God.
PS There is nothing 'spurious' in the word of God.
DuWayne,I had been aware since the 80's of the tri-unal gods worshipped..and even the sign of the cross,long before
Christ,as a pagan symbol. But we must remember..flesh gives birth to flesh and spirit gives birth to spirit,and I have
found that the 'one' talent that the servant took and 'hid' in the earth,is removed from him that hid it..and given to him
that received the five..and increased the five to ten.Upon receiving the additional one..that same servant will increase
again the one to two...and end up with 12.....symbolic sign of the Government and Kingdom of God. which = to me
myriads and myriads of angelic holy angels indwelt with His spirit..to do His bidding and carry out His dominion
and great multitudes of the spirits of just men made perfect indwelt by His Holy spirit that also always do what
pleases Him....and He as sovereign over all rules and carrys out the dominion of His whole creation..as one body,one spirit
one mind with and through the many members.
Luke 7;8 the centurion...recognizing Jesus under the authority of Father,with those under his authority in the Kingdom
'For I myself am a man under authority,with soldiers under me. I tell this one 'go' and he goes; and that one 'come' and
he 'comes'. I say to my servant 'do this' and he does it.
this Kingdom and Government of God will become all in all..God in all. the stone not cut out by human hands will
fill the entire earth.... for this reason..Jesus said..if ye have done it to the least of these..you have done it unto me.
and for this reason also,Jesus said...of man born of woman,none is greater then John the baptist..but he who is least
in the kingdom of heaven is greater then he.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on June 04, 2013, 06:11:24 PM
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 04, 2013, 03:45:13 PM
The current mainstream teaching in Christianity is that God is a coequal, coeternal, one-substance trinity, and that Jesus Christ is God. This doctrine is considered by many as the cornerstone of Christianity, but where did this doctrine come from? The historical record is overwhelming that the church of the first three centuries did not worship God as a coequal, coeternal, con-substantial, one-substance three in one mysterious godhead. The early church worshiped one God and believed in a subordinate Son. The trinity originated with Babylon, and was passed on to most of the world's religions. This polytheistic (believing in more than one god) trinitarianism was intertwined with Greek religion and philosophy and slowly worked its way into Christian thought and creeds some 300 years after Christ. Here is the url for the rest of this article. http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.htm (http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.htm) ( I do not support this site, only that I agree with the findings of the pagan origins of the pagan trinity theory).
I have concluded that those of us not believing in man made doctrines/hypothesis do not have to show proof against the trinity theory. Since it is not mentioned by name or implied anywhere in the Word of God it is the responsibility of the trinity theory believers to prove what it is that they believe. I believe in the bible always and likewise always refuse the traditions of men and man made ways of explaining things that they don't understand.
I personally want to thank everyone here for participation in this debate and for keeping it civil.
DuWayne
I read the linked article from beginning to end, and I think the light is coming on for me:
God is God
Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son - subordinate, not co-equal.
The Holy Spirit is God's Breath/Spirit/Life Force, not God. There are Seven Spirits - they do their work and return to God.
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took on him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: ...Phil 2:6
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
----John 1
Quote from: Molly on June 04, 2013, 06:24:14 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 04, 2013, 05:32:07 PM
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 04, 2013, 03:45:13 PM
The current mainstream teaching in Christianity is that God is a coequal, coeternal, one-substance trinity, and that Jesus Christ is God. This doctrine is considered by many as the cornerstone of Christianity, but where did this doctrine come from? The historical record is overwhelming that the church of the first three centuries did not worship God as a coequal, coeternal, con-substantial, one-substance three in one mysterious godhead. The early church worshiped one God and believed in a subordinate Son. The trinity originated with Babylon, and was passed on to most of the world's religions. This polytheistic (believing in more than one god) trinitarianism was intertwined with Greek religion and philosophy and slowly worked its way into Christian thought and creeds some 300 years after Christ. Here is the url for the rest of this article. http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.htm (http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.htm) ( I do not support this site, only that I agree with the findings of the pagan origins of the pagan trinity theory).
I have concluded that those of us not believing in man made doctrines/hypothesis do not have to show proof against the trinity theory. Since it is not mentioned by name or implied anywhere in the Word of God it is the responsibility of the trinity theory believers to prove what it is that they believe. I believe in the bible always and likewise always refuse the traditions of men and man made ways of explaining things that they don't understand.
I personally want to thank everyone here for participation in this debate and for keeping it civil.
DuWayne
:dsunny:
Deu_17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Below are 3 witnesses
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:[/u]
Are you saying we are the third witness as we are brought into oneness with the Father and the Son?
Because if you are, I couldn't agree more. It is the Holy Spirit, under the command of Jesus and the Father, who ushers us into the family of God, allowing us to share his third place in the 'trinity' of the Godhead.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
--Rev 1:8
Through the Holy Spirit we are the "is to come" part of God.
PS There is nothing 'spurious' in the word of God.
All I showed were 3 witnesses that God is one.
"Are you saying we are the third witness as we are brought into oneness with the Father and the Son?"
Don't know how you got that.
I do believe that all will be in the family of God, He is a family.
"PS There is nothing 'spurious' in the word of God." But there is in the Bible.
Molly, I see that I am going to have more study before me...
ah yes, the great cloud of wittness that surround us...coming on the clouds.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 02, 2013, 10:58:36 PM
I have these questions as well.
If the trinity is true, how is it that Jesus Christ was CONCEIVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, but is the SON OF GOD THE FATHER???
If Jesus Christ is the one and only Supreme Deity and Almighty God of the universe, when He died on the cross, WHO resurrected Him back to life?
Also consider, if the Father, the Holy Spirit of God, and Jesus Christ are One inseparable God, then if either of the three were to die, ALL WOULD DIE.
So if God is a trinity and "The TRINITY" itself DIED, then there would be no power to resurrect anyone and we would be without any God today, in fact, we would be without ourselves or anything else in the universe. There would be one big black void!
If "God" (your trinity), DIED, then "God" died--ALL OF GOD DIED, for you say "God" is a "trinity." Maybe you would care to explain that to me? Remember now, the trinity can NOT be divided up into three separate parts, for according to you it IS the three parts that make the whole God. Did only one-third of God die for the sin of the world?
Amen micah. I am a little late reading these post but if the Holy Spirit is a third party of the Godhead why doesn't the apostles recognize it in their epistles? (Rom 1:7) Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. No mention of the Holy Spirit.
No acknowlegdement of the Holy Spirit as being p[art of the Godhead here.
(1Cor. 1:3) Grace be unto you, and peace,
from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.(1Cor. 1:2) Grace be unto you, and peace,
from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.(Gal. 1:3) Grace be to you, and peace,
from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.(Eph. 1:2) Grace be to you, and peace,
from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.(Phil.1:2) Grace be unto you, and peace,
from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.(Col. 1:2) Grace be unto you, and peace,
from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.This is true in every epistle. If the Holy Spirit was a part of the Godhead why didn't the apostles acknowledge it as such? You would think it would say " Grace be to you, and peace,
from God the Father, THE HOLY SPIRIT and from the Lord Jesus Christ." but that isn't what it says.
CHB
Quote from: sheila on June 04, 2013, 07:12:14 PM
ah yes, the great cloud of wittness that surround us...coming on the clouds.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: CHB on June 04, 2013, 07:24:42 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 02, 2013, 10:58:36 PM
I have these questions as well.
If the trinity is true, how is it that Jesus Christ was CONCEIVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, but is the SON OF GOD THE FATHER???
If Jesus Christ is the one and only Supreme Deity and Almighty God of the universe, when He died on the cross, WHO resurrected Him back to life?
Also consider, if the Father, the Holy Spirit of God, and Jesus Christ are One inseparable God, then if either of the three were to die, ALL WOULD DIE.
So if God is a trinity and "The TRINITY" itself DIED, then there would be no power to resurrect anyone and we would be without any God today, in fact, we would be without ourselves or anything else in the universe. There would be one big black void!
If "God" (your trinity), DIED, then "God" died--ALL OF GOD DIED, for you say "God" is a "trinity." Maybe you would care to explain that to me? Remember now, the trinity can NOT be divided up into three separate parts, for according to you it IS the three parts that make the whole God. Did only one-third of God die for the sin of the world?
Amen micah. I am a little late reading these post but if the Holy Spirit is a third party of the Godhead why doesn't the apostles recognize it in their epistles? (Rom 1:7) Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. No mention of the Holy Spirit.
No acknowlegdement of the Holy Spirit as being p[art of the Godhead here.
(1Cor. 1:3) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
(1Cor. 1:2) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
(Gal. 1:3) Grace be to you, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
(Eph. 1:2) Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
(Phil.1:2) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
(Col. 1:2) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
This is true in every epistle. If the Holy Spirit was a part of the Godhead why didn't the apostles acknowledge it as such? You would think it would say " Grace be to you, and peace, from God the Father, THE HOLY SPIRIT and from the Lord Jesus Christ." but that isn't what it says.
CHB
Because they are speaking those words through the Holy Spirit.
right,he will not speak of his own..but what is mine[Christs] and declare it to you
also,because our hearts are epistle's written of the finger of God...man with the inkhorn..of which God writes in our hearts
and minds.
alo this with the writing kit..man with inkhorn...is the Holy spirit of which we are born of the spirit and our names written
in heaven..as born of the Jerusalem above. what's born of spirit is spirit.
Again no one is denying the existence of the Holy Spirit and the works through those who believe. Since I find no evidence in the Bible that there is a trinity of three persons in one, I consider it theological doctrine imagined by men. The evidence in the Bible is, ONE Lord God. Is there any place that states God the Holy Spirit?
Joh 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed
Luk 22:70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 04, 2013, 07:52:55 PM
Again no one is denying the existence of the Holy Spirit and the works through those who believe. Since I find no evidence in the Bible that there is a trinity of three persons in one, I consider it theological doctrine imagined by men. The evidence in the Bible is, ONE Lord God. Is there any place that states God the Holy Spirit?
Joh 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed
Luk 22:70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking
by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord,
but by the Holy Ghost. .
Gods Word 3 So I want you to know that no one speaking by God's Spirit says, "Jesus is cursed." No one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
Yes it the witness in you Gods seal that speaks and teaches and reminds our conscience obedience to Gods will being done
Quote from: sheila on June 04, 2013, 07:43:35 PM
alo this with the writing kit..man with inkhorn...is the Holy spirit of which we are born of the spirit and our names written
in heaven..as born of the Jerusalem above. what's born of spirit is spirit.
Right. Born the same way as Jesus, conceived by the Holy Spirit--born again--born from above--born in the heavenly Jerusalem--
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
--John 3
His foundation is in the holy mountains.
2 The Lord loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.
3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah.
4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.
5
And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her.
6 The Lord shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.
7 As well the singers as the players on instruments shall be there: all my springs are in thee.
--Psalm 87
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 04, 2013, 06:53:04 PM
"PS There is nothing 'spurious' in the word of God." But there is in the Bible.
A few things suspected (by honest, truly "of the faith" scholars), a very few things "proven". Which have to do with translations. The more literal translations tend to correct this. And of course they don't exist in the VERY oldest (closest to the Originals) manuscripts. The differences there are things like spelling, a minor word left out/difference here and there - transcribing errors - that don't affect the meaning AT ALL. Hopefully better translations will keep getting based on those few oldest available manuscripts. :thumbsup:
Blessings.
Quote from: rosered on June 04, 2013, 08:06:32 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 04, 2013, 07:52:55 PM
Again no one is denying the existence of the Holy Spirit and the works through those who believe. Since I find no evidence in the Bible that there is a trinity of three persons in one, I consider it theological doctrine imagined by men. The evidence in the Bible is, ONE Lord God. Is there any place that states God the Holy Spirit?
Joh 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed
Luk 22:70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. .
Gods Word 3 So I want you to know that no one speaking by God's Spirit says, "Jesus is cursed." No one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
Yes it the witness in you Gods seal that speaks and teaches and reminds our conscience obedience to Gods will being done
rosered :thumbsup:
12 I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:
for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. 14
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it to you. ...
Quote from: Molly
Because they are speaking those words through the Holy Spirit.
Yes, that is true but no where does it say that the Holy Spirit is a person. Sure the word "he" is used but wisdom is referred to as "she" and we know wisdom is not a person.
The Holy Spirit is the power of God that he uses to accomplish his purpose in the universe.
John saw the Holy Spirit as a dove. In Genesis it says the spirit moved or fluttered upon the face of the waters. Christ described the Holy Spirit as being like the wind (John 3:8).
Scripture says the Holy Spirit can be poured out (Acts 10:45). Christ said the Holy Spirit was like water (John 7:38-39).
John said "truly our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ" (1John 1:3). Why didn't John mention the Holy Spirit here? If three people own and run a business together usually all three names are recognized when addressing the business.
(Rom. 8:17) Paul mentiones that Christians are co heirs of Christ and God but no mention of the Holy Spirit.
(1Cor. 11:3) Paul talkes about the God being the head of Christ but no mention about the Holy Spirit being head of anyone.
(1Tim 2:5) "For there is one God, and ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, the man Jesus Christ". If the Holy Spirit is a person and is co equal with God why isn't it mentioned here.
CHB
Chb, I see it as the way physicists view light. Those who only see light as a wave, call it a wave. Those who only see light as a particle, call it a particle. How can light be both? They seem to be contradictory positions. But, those who see light as both a wave and a particle, call it a wavicle.
So you are seeing the Holy Spirit through the scriptures that describe him as a force, and I am seeing him through scriptures that describe him as a person. But, I can see both, really I can. Yet, it is the Holy Spirit as a person which is my first experience of Him, so that is what I prefer, --to see him as a person. The Bible gives us both choices. For the longest time, though, I did not know what I was perceiving, because no one explained this to me.
QuoteJohn said "truly our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ" (1John 1:3). Why didn't John mention the Holy Spirit here? If three people own and run a business together usually all three names are recognized when addressing the business.
Yes, we have fellowship with the Father and the Son because of the Holy Spirit. He doesn't mention it because it is a given. It is mentioned in many other places in the Bible.
If you want to see it in business terms, you've got the CEO [the Father], the salesman [Jesus], and the guy who does all the work in the background [the Holy Spirit]. I know I'm going to regret saying that. :laugh: But, that's the way a small business runs.
11 Dear brothers and sisters, I close my letter with these last words: Be joyful. Grow to maturity. Encourage each other. Live in harmony and peace. Then the God of love and peace will be with you.
12 Greet each other with Christian love. 13 All of God's people here send you their greetings.
14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God,
and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
--2 Cor 13
"fellowship"G2842
κοινωνία
koinōniakoy-nohn-ee'-ah
From G2844;
partnership, that is, (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction: - (to) communicate (-ation),
communion, (contri-), distribution,
fellowship.
13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. 15Whoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwells in him, and he in God.
--1 John 4
Quote from: Molly
If you want to see it in business terms, you've got the CEO [the Father], the salesman [Jesus], and the guy who does all the work in the background [the Holy Spirit]. I know I'm going to regret saying that. But, that's the way a small business runs.
Molly I can see that. God uses his Holy Spirit to do all of the leg work for Him.
CHB
CHB
Quote from: Molly on June 04, 2013, 09:45:26 PM
If you want to see it in business terms, you've got the CEO [the Father], the salesman [Jesus], and the guy who does all the work in the background [the Holy Spirit]. I know I'm going to regret saying that. :laugh: But, that's the way a small business runs.
Molly if this is your view of the so called trinity than by definition you don't believe in the trinity. My last post defined the trinity and it does not match what your scenario suggests about the Father having the superior role over the Son and both are over the HS. You don't have to hang on to man made labels when you understand the relationship between the Father, Son, and HS.
Numbers 23:19 states that God is not a man. God was not born, and God certainly did not die, but when people deviate from what the Bible teaches you can come up with the bizarre complexities of trinitarian religious mysteries that contradict logic, common sense and God's Word.
Quote from: CHB on June 04, 2013, 09:12:15 PM
Quote from: Molly
Because they are speaking those words through the Holy Spirit.
Yes, that is true but no where does it say that the Holy Spirit is a person. Sure the word "he" is used but wisdom is referred to as "she" and we know wisdom is not a person.
CHB
Hey CHB! I am not someone who knows a whole lot about much of this stuff, but this caught my eye. We know that Love is a Person, right? (God is Love.) We know that the Word of God is a Person right? I also believe that Wisdom is a Person and I desire to know her as fully as the others. :HeartThrob:
Blessings.
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 04, 2013, 11:59:09 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 04, 2013, 09:45:26 PM
If you want to see it in business terms, you've got the CEO [the Father], the salesman [Jesus], and the guy who does all the work in the background [the Holy Spirit]. I know I'm going to regret saying that. :laugh: But, that's the way a small business runs.
Molly if this is your view of the so called trinity than by definition you don't believe in the trinity. My last post defined the trinity and it does not match what your scenario suggests about the Father having the superior role over the Son and both are over the HS. You don't have to hang on to man made labels when you understand the relationship between the Father, Son, and HS.
Numbers 23:19 states that God is not a man. God was not born, and God certainly did not die, but when people deviate from what the Bible teaches you can come up with the bizarre complexities of trinitarian religious mysteries that contradict logic, common sense and God's Word.
On the other hand, if you have ever started a small business, you know that at first, these three functions are filled by one person, yourself. So you meet with bankers as CEO in your fancy business suit, and you meet with buyers in another role, as salesman, a little more modestly dressed, jacket and tie, and then you put on your workclothes and get busy building your product in the backroom. Three roles, which look very different, performed by one person, and the functions, different, but equally important.
You, as a man, could die all day long and it wouldn't change the world, but Jesus died once and it did--everything is changed.
And, now, Jesus has left the planet, and we have the dispensation of the Holy Spirit of grace, who is bringing it all home.
Romans 2:29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person's praise is not from other people, but from God.
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:11-13).
Quote from: lomarah on June 05, 2013, 01:36:25 AM
Quote from: CHB on June 04, 2013, 09:12:15 PM
Quote from: Molly
Because they are speaking those words through the Holy Spirit.
Yes, that is true but no where does it say that the Holy Spirit is a person. Sure the word "he" is used but wisdom is referred to as "she" and we know wisdom is not a person.
CHB
Hey CHB! I am not someone who knows a whole lot about much of this stuff, but this caught my eye. We know that Love is a Person, right? (God is Love.) We know that the Word of God is a Person right? I also believe that Wisdom is a Person and I desire to know her as fully as the others. :HeartThrob:
Blessings.
Hey Lomarah, have you ever seen a person poured out on someone? (Acts 10:45)
Can the foot, and ear speak? And if the foot shall SAY, because I am not the hand, I am not of the body. and if the ear shall SAY, (1Cor. 12:15-16) Of course they can't speak Paul just personified them to make a point.
Also, "let the heaven rejoice, and let the earth be glad...let the field be joyful...then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice" (Psalms 96: 11-12).
(Isaiah 55:12) says "the mountains shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees shall clap their hands".
Can the mountains sing, or the trees clap their hands?
I think Christ gave the best description of the Holy Spirit. (John 3:8) "the wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth". So from a physical point of view the wind is the best description of the Holy Spirit and its actions.
CHB
I was actually just talking about Wisdom and not entering into the trinity discussion... I probably should've just kept my mouth shut then seeing as this is a trinity thread lol. Carry on!
Quote from: CHB on June 05, 2013, 02:00:05 AM
Quote from: lomarah on June 05, 2013, 01:36:25 AM
Quote from: CHB on June 04, 2013, 09:12:15 PM
Quote from: Molly
I think Christ gave the best description of the Holy Spirit. (John 3:8) "the wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth". So from a physical point of view the wind is the best description of the Holy Spirit and its actions.
CHB
CHB this verse also refers to the HS as "it" so along with your previous questions to lomarah, is the Father or Son ever referred to as "it"? Are people "its"
Paul spoke of himself as being poured out like a drink offering in Phillipians 2;17...
a spirit hath not flesh and blood..and we are to know no man after the flesh even Jesus. And yes you do
have an actual spirit Mother..and you will meet her some day..just as you will meet your actual Father.
were talking about celestal bodies here...spiritual bodies..that's like comparing apple's to oranges
as I see it.[natural people/terrestial to celestial spiritual beings.]
flesh gives birth to flesh..spirit to spirit.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3
1)This is not referring to the HS as 'it.'
It is referring to the wind as 'it.'
2) It is not really talking about the HS at all. It's talking about those born of the Spirit.
Jesus: 5 I tell you the truth, if someone does not experience water and Spirit birth, there's no chance he will make it into God's kingdom. 6 Like from like. Whatever is born from flesh is flesh; whatever is born from Spirit is spirit. 7 Don't be shocked by My words, but I tell you the truth. Even you, an educated and respected man among your people, must be reborn by the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. 8 The wind blows all around us as if it has a will of its own; we feel and hear it, but we do not understand where it has come from or where it will end up. Life in the Spirit is as if it were in the wind of God.
Nicodemus: 9 I still do not understand how this can be.
Jesus: 10 Your responsibility is to instruct Israel in matters of faith, but you do not comprehend the necessity of life in the Spirit? 11 I tell you the truth: we speak about the things we know, and we give evidence about the things we have seen, and you choose to reject the truth of our witness. 12 If you do not believe when I talk to you about ordinary, earthly realities, then heavenly realities will certainly elude you.
The actual Greek "The Spirit the Holy" proves the Holy Spirit is not a person. The Bible calls the Holy Spirit an "it". John 1:32; 1 Pet 1:11
John 1
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
1 Peter 1:11
King James Version (KJV)
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
DuWayne
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.
--1 Peter 1 [NIV]
:dunno:
After all that I have read in this thread, perhaps hell is a real place of eternal torment. :doh: :scratchhead:
I actually love this passage. It's so mystical. The thought of the prophets receiving this word from the Holy Spirit and wondering and trying to explore to whom it applied--just gives me chills.
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
1 Peter 1
All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!
--Psa 22
Ok Molly you win, it is a he which would make it a he-it as apposed to she-it. :LH:
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 05, 2013, 04:28:47 AM
Ok Molly you win, it is a he which would make it a he-it as apposed to she-it. :LH:
Somehow that doesn't sound like you are really conceding anything. :gmad:
:laugh:
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
your posts all reminded me of this verse the holy thing is concieved of the Holy Ghost /Spirit
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
the list of translations New International Version (©2011)
The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
New Living Translation (©2007)
The angel replied, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the baby to be born will be holy, and he will be called the Son of God.
English Standard Version (©2001)
And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
The angel replied to her:" The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore, the holy One to be born will be called the Son of God.
International Standard Version (©2012)
The angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come over you, and the power of the Most High will surround you. Therefore, the child will be holy and will be called the Son of God.
NET Bible (©2006)
The angel replied, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be holy; he will be called the Son of God.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
The Angel answered and said to her, "The Spirit of Holiness shall come and the power of The Highest shall rest upon you, therefore he who shall be begotten in you shall be holy and he shall be called the Son of God."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come to you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore, the holy child developing inside you will be called the Son of God.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God.
American King James Version
And the angel answered and said to her, The Holy Ghost shall come on you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God.
American Standard Version
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Darby Bible Translation
And the angel answering said to her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and power of the Highest overshadow thee, wherefore the holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God.
English Revised Version
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also that which is to be born shall be called holy, the Son of God.
Webster's Bible Translation
And the angel answered and said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon thee, and the power of the Highest will overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Weymouth New Testament
The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for this reason your holy offspring will be called 'the Son of God.'
World English Bible
The angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore also the holy one who is born from you will be called the Son of God.
Young's Literal Translation
And the messenger answering said to her, 'The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God;
I can't beleive this..but...I just looked up thing in my dictionary.... :Chinscratch:
from the rootword. thingian; to reconcile..conciliate..judiciary assembly, court
who would of thought that?
wow!
Quote from: rosered on June 05, 2013, 05:10:25 AM
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
your posts all reminded me of this verse the holy thing is concieved of the Holy Ghost /Spirit
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Rosered, the trinity is in this verse [Luke 1:35]
Father [power of the Highest]
Holy Spirit
Son [that holy thing]
Just a little observation.
We are made in His image.
When I share with my earthly dad we are one in spirit.
My dad is older than me.
Christ is the first-born of all creation.
In Christ is ALL wisdom. And He comes to please His Father.
If the Father, Son and HS are one then the God family is closed only consisting of 3. In my understanding we are brothers of Christ which makes us part of God's family. That would mean that IMO the family is growing all the time but your trinity is a stumbling block because it narrows Gods family to only 3. The trinity is a limiting factor and a stumbling block. Would God be the author of a stumbling block?
DuWayne
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 05, 2013, 03:22:18 PM
If the Father, Son and HS are one then the God family is closed only consisting of 3. In my understanding we are brothers of Christ which makes us part of God's family. That would mean that IMO the family is growing all the time but your trinity is a stumbling block because it narrows Gods family to only 3. The trinity is a limiting factor and a stumbling block. Would God be the author of a stumbling block?
DuWayne
Amen. This verse shows that the Holy Spirit is a power of God. "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
It is the power of God the Father that impregnated mary. If it had been the Holy Spirit...(a seperate being)...how could God be called the Father of Jesus.
CHB
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 05, 2013, 03:22:18 PM
If the Father, Son and HS are one then the God family is closed only consisting of 3. In my understanding we are brothers of Christ which makes us part of God's family. That would mean that IMO the family is growing all the time but your trinity is a stumbling block because it narrows Gods family to only 3. The trinity is a limiting factor and a stumbling block. Would God be the author of a stumbling block?
DuWayne
Hi DuWayne
3 as One Not at all in my opinion Bro that 3 only makes up the family , I believe in the ''corporate Christ ''' many are being all gathered in to Christ to be delivered to the Father ,
you are born again as a spiritual being , as we all are here because we do not deny the Son of God Jesus Christ , so the Holy Spirit is in you and in all , and if you have the Son you have the Father also , this is how we are Gathered or subdued as taken as One /Christ ''in'' One GOD by the Holy Spirit
so you would have all 3 witnesses in you as do I and Molly and Shelia and Ross , Jab , John etc ,
all whom are called and taken by the Lord God to fulfill His will
here is a clue to what I am trying to say here ..
1Cr 15:28 And when
all things shall be subdued unto him,
then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him
that put all things under him,
that God may be all in all. Hope this helps a little to explain what
we Know , yet are not able to put in words
Quote from: CHB on June 05, 2013, 04:31:16 PM
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 05, 2013, 03:22:18 PM
If the Father, Son and HS are one then the God family is closed only consisting of 3. In my understanding we are brothers of Christ which makes us part of God's family. That would mean that IMO the family is growing all the time but your trinity is a stumbling block because it narrows Gods family to only 3. The trinity is a limiting factor and a stumbling block. Would God be the author of a stumbling block?
DuWayne
Amen. This verse shows that the Holy Spirit is a power of God. "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
It is the power of God the Father that impregnated mary. If it had been the Holy Spirit...(a seperate being)...how could God be called the Father of Jesus.
CHB
Yes the Holy Spirit is the action MOVEMENT or Love of God in Gods Wisdom female gender !!! you got it CHB ! well put !!!!! GOD IS SPIRIT those whom worship Him it must be in SPIRIT and Truth , what better
truth than in Gods wisdom and not our wisdom that earthly sensual and devilish ?
but we know this clue here
Gen 1:27 So God
created man in his [own] image,
in the image of God created he him;
male and female created he them. man is male and female this is the necessity to even produce offspring
this will be done in us all and will carry out in the same sons of God senerio our example being Jesus first born from the dead , yet died on the Cross and than become the LORD of the dead and Living =ALL !! The power over all ... till He has gathered all into Himself being delivered to the Father and Mother male female Image , mirror or relection of the heavelies
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.
But wisdom is justified of her children.
Luk 7:35
But wisdom is justified of all her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which
is above is free,
which is the mother of us all. Hope this is more clear to explain the 3 as One GOD , just what I know in my heart as Truth
everyone must come to terms in their own heart with what is Truth
Quote from: CHB on June 05, 2013, 04:31:16 PM
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 05, 2013, 03:22:18 PM
If the Father, Son and HS are one then the God family is closed only consisting of 3. In my understanding we are brothers of Christ which makes us part of God's family. That would mean that IMO the family is growing all the time but your trinity is a stumbling block because it narrows Gods family to only 3. The trinity is a limiting factor and a stumbling block. Would God be the author of a stumbling block?
DuWayne
:dsunny:
Amen. This verse shows that the Holy Spirit is a power of God. "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
It is the power of God the Father that impregnated mary. If it had been the Holy Spirit...(a seperate being)...how could God be called the Father of Jesus.
CHB
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 05, 2013, 03:22:18 PM
If the Father, Son and HS are one then the God family is closed only consisting of 3. In my understanding we are brothers of Christ which makes us part of God's family. That would mean that IMO the family is growing all the time but your trinity is a stumbling block because it narrows Gods family to only 3. The trinity is a limiting factor and a stumbling block. Would God be the author of a stumbling block?
DuWayne
:dsunny:
Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luk 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
Luk 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
this may also help explain better what and why this is so important to understand this concept , making the scriptures more clear
those 3 are One God making up the very Spirit and truth when one blasphemes the Holy Spirit this being God the Father and IN HIS WISDOM = the Son and sons of God , you speak against the very WORD and Spirit and work that IS SALVATION !!
48 The Jews replied to Jesus, "Aren't we right when we say that you're a Samaritan and that you're possessed by a demon?"
49 Jesus answered, "I'm not possessed. I honor my Father, but you dishonor me. 50 I don't want my own glory. But there is someone who wants it, and he is the judge. 51 I can guarantee this truth: Whoever obeys what I say will never see death."
:HeartThrob: Micah , God bless you :dsunny:
Quote from: rosered on June 05, 2013, 04:57:57 PM
Quote from: CHB on June 05, 2013, 04:31:16 PM
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 05, 2013, 03:22:18 PM
If the Father, Son and HS are one then the God family is closed only consisting of 3. In my understanding we are brothers of Christ which makes us part of God's family. That would mean that IMO the family is growing all the time but your trinity is a stumbling block because it narrows Gods family to only 3. The trinity is a limiting factor and a stumbling block. Would God be the author of a stumbling block?
DuWayne
Amen. This verse shows that the Holy Spirit is a power of God. "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
It is the power of God the Father that impregnated mary. If it had been the Holy Spirit...(a seperate being)...how could God be called the Father of Jesus.
CHB
Yes the Holy Spirit is the action MOVEMENT or Love of God in Gods Wisdom female gender !!! you got it CHB ! well put !!!!! GOD IS SPIRIT those whom worship Him it must be in SPIRIT and Truth , what better truth than in Gods wisdom and not our wisdom that earthly sensual and devilish ?
but we know this clue here
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
man is male and female this is the necessity to even produce offspring
this will be done in us all and will carry out in the same sons of God senerio our example being Jesus first born from the dead , yet died on the Cross and than become the LORD of the dead and Living =ALL !! The power over all ... till He has gathered all into Himself being delivered to the Father and Mother male female Image , mirror or relection of the heavelies
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Luk 7:35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Hope this is more clear to explain the 3 as One GOD , just what I know in my heart as Truth
everyone must come to terms in their own heart with what is Truth
trinity= 3 PERSONS in one. I continue to ask where in the Bible do we find evidence that the Holy Spirit is a person?
The Holy Spirit is very real. It seems to me everyone who has been giving verses of scripture are trying to prove there is a Holy Spirit, I believe that we all believe in the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit is real.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 05, 2013, 05:25:06 PM
Quote from: rosered on June 05, 2013, 04:57:57 PM
Quote from: CHB on June 05, 2013, 04:31:16 PM
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 05, 2013, 03:22:18 PM
If the Father, Son and HS are one then the God family is closed only consisting of 3. In my understanding we are brothers of Christ which makes us part of God's family. That would mean that IMO the family is growing all the time but your trinity is a stumbling block because it narrows Gods family to only 3. The trinity is a limiting factor and a stumbling block. Would God be the author of a stumbling block?
DuWayne
Amen. This verse shows that the Holy Spirit is a power of God. "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
It is the power of God the Father that impregnated mary. If it had been the Holy Spirit...(a seperate being)...how could God be called the Father of Jesus.
CHB
Yes the Holy Spirit is the action MOVEMENT or Love of God in Gods Wisdom female gender !!! you got it CHB ! well put !!!!! GOD IS SPIRIT those whom worship Him it must be in SPIRIT and Truth , what better truth than in Gods wisdom and not our wisdom that earthly sensual and devilish ?
but we know this clue here
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
man is male and female this is the necessity to even produce offspring
this will be done in us all and will carry out in the same sons of God senerio our example being Jesus first born from the dead , yet died on the Cross and than become the LORD of the dead and Living =ALL !! The power over all ... till He has gathered all into Himself being delivered to the Father and Mother male female Image , mirror or relection of the heavelies
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Luk 7:35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Hope this is more clear to explain the 3 as One GOD , just what I know in my heart as Truth
everyone must come to terms in their own heart with what is Truth
trinity= 3 PERSONS in one. I continue to ask where in the Bible do we find evidence that the Holy Spirit is a person?
The Holy Spirit is very real. It seems to me everyone who has been giving verses of scripture are trying to prove there is a Holy Spirit, I believe that we all believe in the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit is real.
I have never said they are 3 persons , right there I said they ARE SPIRIT AND TRUTH !!
They are 3 as ONE , could I be any more clear Micah ?
I even said from the start Jesus Flesh is not the same flesh ,in the first offering post flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God
in Adam Gen 2 all die God made this man adam to become flesh and blood
but in Gen 1 adam was Spirit male and female and his flesh was spiritual /celestial being a son of God
two very distinct and different forms of mankind were created by GOD in the Begining
when God pours out His Spirit on all flesh the conception occurs same example of being born again of Spirit and Truth that we see Jesus was made the holy thing in you
this is why Paul in acts 17 says all nation were made under ONE BLOOD
in the one blood of adam the red is sinful in nature and to die , Adam clay and red
But the blood of Jesus is shed in innocence to be making them whiter than snow
and ALIVE TO GOD brought back from the dead in resurrection of Him whom is the ressurection and the Life
I also served the UNKNOWN GOD and dead in my sins and trespass , till Jesus came sent by the Father and the Holy Spirit shows me and stays and teaches me about GOD , HIS WISDOM AND THE SON OFGOD , JESUS CHRIST
For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.
Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:24
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25
Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing,
seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; Act 17:26 And hath
made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: at the door of our hearts !!!
Act 17:28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed
a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto
all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
The language in the bible always refers to the HS as the HS of God. Christ is the Son of God the father. So we have the Son of God and the Spirit of God. This does not fit with the excepted (by most "Chrisitians") definition of trinity. I will post again the pagan origins of this belief and the excepted view of those who believe in the pagan trinity theory. Please if you don't agree with this post would you kindly show me which part you don't agree with and explain why. Why do you insist on adding or subtracting from the written Word, the trinity is not a term used to describe God, the Son, or the Holy Spirit.
Look at how one very confusing man made doctrine even splits those of us believing in UR. The solution is don't add or subtract from the written Word. If trinity was mentioned even once in any respectable translation it could be considered but its not. In fact the entire subject of trinity is moot since God himself did not see fit to define Himself in such a way. If something cannot be understood in the context of the bible why are we wasting our time debating something added at the Nicean Counsel in 325AD by the biggest pagan of all, Constantine.
The current mainstream teaching in Christianity is that God is a coequal, coeternal, one-substance trinity, and that Jesus Christ is God. This doctrine is considered by many as the cornerstone of Christianity, but where did this doctrine come from? The historical record is overwhelming that the church of the first three centuries did not worship God as a coequal, coeternal, consubstantial, one-substance three in one mysterious godhead. The early church worshipped one God and believed in a subordinate Son. The trinity originated with Babylon, and was passed on to most of the world's religions. This polytheistic (believing in more than one god) trinitarianism was intertwined with Greek religion and philosophy and slowly worked its way into Christian thought and creeds some 300 years after Christ. The idea of "God the Son" is Babylonian paganism and mythology that was grafted into Christianity. Worshipping "God the Son" is idolatry, and idolatry is Biblically condemned; it breaks the first great commandment of God of not having any gods before him (Exodus 20:3). Then three centuries after Christ the corrupt emperor Constantine forced the minority opinion of the trinity upon the council of Nicea. The Christian church went downward from there; in fact some of the creeds and councils actually contradict each other. The council of Nicea 325 said that "Jesus Christ is God," the council of Constantinople 381 said that "the Holy Spirit is God," the council of Ephesus 431 said that "human beings are totally depraved," the council of Chalcedon 451 said that "Jesus Christ is both man and God." If you follow the logic here then first you have Jesus Christ as God, then you have man totally depraved, and then you have Jesus Christ as man and God. If Jesus Christ is both man and God does this mean that God is also totally depraved? Well maybe the doctrine of the coequal, coeternal, one-substance, mysterious three in one triune godhead is deprived of any historical foundation tying it into the Christianity of the Bible and the Christianity of the first three centuries. However the historical information ties the trinity into various pagan origins.
Excellent! :dsunny: :HeartThrob: But I fear what you say will not be accepted and that is sad. Thanks
Quote from: rosered on June 05, 2013, 05:30:23 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 05, 2013, 05:25:06 PM
Quote from: rosered on June 05, 2013, 04:57:57 PM
Quote from: CHB on June 05, 2013, 04:31:16 PM
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 05, 2013, 03:22:18 PM
If the Father, Son and HS are one then the God family is closed only consisting of 3. In my understanding we are brothers of Christ which makes us part of God's family. That would mean that IMO the family is growing all the time but your trinity is a stumbling block because it narrows Gods family to only 3. The trinity is a limiting factor and a stumbling block. Would God be the author of a stumbling block?
DuWayne
Amen. This verse shows that the Holy Spirit is a power of God. "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
It is the power of God the Father that impregnated mary. If it had been the Holy Spirit...(a seperate being)...how could God be called the Father of Jesus.
CHB
Yes the Holy Spirit is the action MOVEMENT or Love of God in Gods Wisdom female gender !!! you got it CHB ! well put !!!!! GOD IS SPIRIT those whom worship Him it must be in SPIRIT and Truth , what better truth than in Gods wisdom and not our wisdom that earthly sensual and devilish ?
but we know this clue here
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
man is male and female this is the necessity to even produce offspring
this will be done in us all and will carry out in the same sons of God senerio our example being Jesus first born from the dead , yet died on the Cross and than become the LORD of the dead and Living =ALL !! The power over all ... till He has gathered all into Himself being delivered to the Father and Mother male female Image , mirror or relection of the heavelies
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Luk 7:35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Hope this is more clear to explain the 3 as One GOD , just what I know in my heart as Truth
everyone must come to terms in their own heart with what is Truth
trinity= 3 PERSONS in one. I continue to ask where in the Bible do we find evidence that the Holy Spirit is a person?
The Holy Spirit is very real. It seems to me everyone who has been giving verses of scripture are trying to prove there is a Holy Spirit, I believe that we all believe in the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit is real.
I have never said they are 3 persons , right there I said they ARE SPIRIT AND TRUTH !!
They are 3 as ONE , could I be any more clear Micah ?
I was just pointing out that a trinity is said to be 3 persons in 1; You were clear enough, it's just when I read 3 in 1 I shudder. I have never been good in math but I know that you can't get 3 out of 1. :)
You are quoting someone else, mpls. We are looking at the Bible. Many people worshipped Jesus while he walked on the earth and he never corrected them. When Thomas said, My Lord and My God to him, Jesus did not say, no, I am not that, Thomas. The high priest knew he was saying he was God and ripped his clothes, pulled his hair, and punched him. Jesus was tried for blasphemy.
John 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
The triune God is well known in the Old Testament. They knew YHWH the Father and YHWH the Son. They had the indwelt Holy Spirit and were led and rescued and taught by the Holy Spirit.
Even the pagans knew this, saying Daniel was indwelt by "the spirit of the holy gods."
I myself have stated that the trinity doctrine as taught is 'whacked' and that I am really more interested
the true treasures and things exhibited in the Holy of Holies. You yourself have said,that Molly's beleif
is not the trinity doctrine as the church teaches. and neither is mine,nor anyone elses as far as I can tell
So what's all this idolatry and stumbling etc all about?
we each have our own point of veiw..and evidently it is not the trinity doctrine as taught in the church..
Personally I see Jesus and Holy spirit in Holy of Holies..working the High Presthood to lead us into
the presence of God..
I have read the pagan origins years ago..but satn is always the imitator and corruptor of a truth of God..
therefore I said...trinity doctrines taught in christendom...'whacked' but I am more interested in
hidden gems revealed in word of God/scriptures..of what is the truth.what,this can't be examined
and discussed? Yes, the trinity doctrine as taught in christendom is 'whacked' but can we please discuss
and examine what the scriptures say and examine them without being accused of causing division
stumbling and idolatry,please?
QuoteI was just pointing out that a trinity is said to be 3 persons in 1; You were clear enough, it's just when I read 3 in 1 I shudder. I have never been good in math but I know that you can't get 3 out of 1. :)
I am super lousy at math , but have been studying Gods patterns as of late , and am amazed with Gods wonderful and perfect WORK with letters and number patterns , 3 is a prime number Micah
for instance here I found this to help explain
A prime number (or a prime) is a natural number greater than 1 that has no positive divisors other than 1 and itself. A natural number greater than 1 that is not a prime number is called a composite number.
the 3 beings , the 3 outer court , inner court and holy of Holies
the 3 sons of Noah , the 3's are thoughout His Word
we have the word being written Word and spoken Word and Living Word
I have used scriptures to the best of my ability to explain the 3 as 1 GOD
never persons or persona but 3 distinct funtions and ALL come from GOD ALMIGHTY , there is no word I know to express the Great Living God without poor attempts to express the greatness of the Omniscience of God the creator who is ALL
I am thankful you are willing to share express and expline as we are all pressing into this deeply
I love that !! :girlheart:
This is such a touchy topic.. or at least often is.. but I'd still like to add my :2c: worth :smile:
I actually come down on both sides of this long standing 'debate' (can you believe they even had a small war over this? that's what I read a long time ago, anyway) - and taking both sides to an issue, doesn't often get me much support, :laughing7:
I've come to think of it like this, that the Son is the 1st of aLL creation, that He proceeded straight out from God.. (whereas all other things were created in and through the Son)
Straight out from God (onLy begotten) - being so close as to share substance, essence and character.. I think of it like this, in the animal and vegetable kingdoms, there are many. In the 'God Kingdom' there are two, the Father and Son. Being so close that BOTH can pour out (and anoint-with) God's Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost which is God's Presence (imo)
This, to me, makes them "One"
But, I figure they also must be "Two" because Jesus prayed to someone..
And He prayed that the body/believers would "be one, as He and the Father are one"
just my :2c: :hiya:
blessings!
glenda
p.s. paradoxically I feel the Son was with God from the beginning.. but then too, all things will one day be "one" in that God will be "all in all" one yet many, with the Son having pre-eminence of course, only after God Most High/the Father..
questions...is God one spirit? I say yes..does a spirit have the right to mnifest itself in different forms?
I'd say yes...d/t they may take whatever form they desire...therefore make no image[set form] in your mind
of God.He can manifest in clouds,light,appearnce as a man..a voice in a burning bush.He can freely
move in and out and through His whole creation.
Now,as far as I can tell,He has desired to make Himself into a family form..for His spirit to dwell in.....
He has also taken some of His substance and displayed it in a material seen way..that we do
observe with material/terrestial eyes. He also has taken some of His substance and made celestial
creatures and sons and daughters.
is this really the bottom line...that the arguement is about what form He dwells in?
and if we have trouble with Him manifesting Himself as 3 in 1..how we going to deal with Him manifesting
Himself as all in all?
59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;
60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,
61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.
67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,
68 Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?
--Mat 26
Why did the high priest go nuts when he heard Jesus say this? What did the high priest know about this passage that we don't know? Why did the high priest call this blasphemy?
It is because he knew that Jesus was identifying himself as the Rider of the Clouds in the Old Testament, and thereby identifying himself as God.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
--Dan 7
Sing to God, sing in praise of his name, extol him who rides on the clouds; rejoice before him--his name is the LORD.
--Psa 68
Q.E.D.
Let me ask this question. If you picked up your Bible never hearing of a trinity theory doctrine of 3 in 1, would you have constructed the teaching on what the Bible reads?
another thing I have heard said,that I don't comprehend..is this...if Jesus Christ..the Holy spirit and God
are one,where does that leave us? Well,what if He made a High presithood that was one with Him to
minister and bring other's into oneness with Him?Is He allowed to do that? To make many different vessels
to have His spirit dwell in? with differnt functions in the body?
Isaaih 45;11 This is what the Lord says-the Holy one of Israel and it's maker;
Concerning things to come,do you question me about my children,or give me orders about the work
of my hands? It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it,my own hands stretched out
the heavens;I marshalled their starry hosts. I will raise up Cyrus in my righteousness;I will make
all his ways straight.He will rebuild my city and set my exiles free,but not for a price or reward.
something to think about.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 05, 2013, 07:12:20 PM
Let me ask this question. If you picked up your Bible never hearing of a trinity theory doctrine of 3 in 1, would you have constructed the teaching on what the Bible reads?
:iagree: How can someone say that they would create the same theology from only the information contained in the only thing that counts, the Word of God.
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 05, 2013, 07:20:46 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 05, 2013, 07:12:20 PM
Let me ask this question. If you picked up your Bible never hearing of a trinity theory doctrine of 3 in 1, would you have constructed the teaching on what the Bible reads?
:iagree: How can someone say that they would create the same theology from only the information contained in the only thing that counts, the Word of God.
Do you believe Jesus is God? Because I've just proven that from the Bible.
Otherwise, he is a liar and guilty of blasphemy and deserved to die.
I have said ye are all gods, sons of the Most High
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 05, 2013, 07:20:46 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 05, 2013, 07:12:20 PM
Let me ask this question. If you picked up your Bible never hearing of a trinity theory doctrine of 3 in 1, would you have constructed the teaching on what the Bible reads?
:iagree: How can someone say that they would create the same theology from only the information contained in the only thing that counts, the Word of God.
Hi DuWayne
For me its not only what grows in you from the God almighty creator of all things to understand it
but the Written Word is the same as babes in Christ 1)
spiritual growth and the
Spoken Word is the same as the young men 2) in spiritual growth
the the Living Word is the same as the fathers3) in Spiritual growth
fuller measures of Truth and grace from the Holy Spirit teaching us , the Wisdom of God
those patterns of threes come from ONE GOD [All in ALL ] [Godhead]
we do not deny Jesus Christ is 1) the way 2) Truth and 3 ) the Life
again the 3's pattern , I was hoping to show the 3 in 1 as them examples
1Cr 1:24 But unto them
which are called, both Jews and Greeks,
Christ the power of God, and
the wisdom of God. both being the Holy Spirit/power and Wisdom of God = Jesus Christ
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even]
his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and
not after Christ.
Col 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.And ye are complete in him, which
is the head of all principality and power:
I do not believe in the trinity doctrine according to the traditions of men , though they had an idea [image of thought process they share ]
but will not deny the Holy Godhead as 3 to be from one GOD , just as I will never deny the 7Spirits of God /7 eyes on one Stone the rock Jesus Christ
in Gods design and wisdom created an amazing mystery to unfold to quicken within us , to know the truth by His Holy Spirit that dwells with us as we continually grow in Truth and grace
now being spiritual [Christ sitting on the thrones of our hearts ruling ] more so as the carnal takes the backseat till its completly done away with in Christ to the full
This is my thoughts about it , none do ever have to agree , thats fine , but was only sharing in more detail how beautiful Gods desire is for us
sure we will change more and more as we are given more and more of Him from Him ! to God be the glory !!
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 05, 2013, 07:44:34 PM
I have said ye are all gods, sons of the Most High
OK Let me put it another way. Jesus said he was YHWH.
Quote from: Molly on June 05, 2013, 07:53:38 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 05, 2013, 07:44:34 PM
I have said ye are all gods, sons of the Most High
OK Let me put it another way. Jesus said he was YHWH.
now this is a different direction all together Molly ! the Great IAM ,now you just got us over a barrel here :laugh:
For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Hbr 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Hbr 7:3
Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them,
Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? Mar 12:25
For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I [am] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err
Absolutly! H3068 Jehovah yeh-ho-vaw' self Existent or eternal; Jehovah
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.
H3091 Joshua yeh-ho-shoo'-ah, yeh-ho-shoo'-ah Jehovah-saved From H3068
G2424 Jesus Iēsous Of Hebrew origin [H3091]; Jesus (that is, Jehoshua),
Jehovah= Lord God
To him who overcomes I will give him my name and my Fathers name.
Quote from: Molly on June 05, 2013, 07:53:38 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 05, 2013, 07:44:34 PM
I have said ye are all gods, sons of the Most High
OK Let me put it another way. Jesus said he was YHWH.
And your point is what?
I still don't know why you keep coming back with the same answer every time. Have any of us non-trinitarians disputed anything that is in plain writing within the Word of God? NO we have not so stop showing proof of things that we all except to be truth. The trinity is not in the Word of God therefore you can throw all of your excuses for believing in something that the Word of God did not see fit to include. I personally refuse to be swayed by anything other than the Word itself. You are interpreting the scriptures to describe something that a bunch of theologians put together here on earth in the 2nd century AD. You are defending the Catholic church and all of their pagan man made doctrines/theories.
Well put :dsunny:
"Molly said,OK Let me put it another way. Jesus said he was YHWH"
Perhaps....as I read it He said, before Abraham was, I am". He did not say, "I am YHWH"- as I read it, but I think it is an honest interpretation- I just don't see it that way because it does not integrate with the rest of the scriptures on the subject- the context.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased(For so it pleased the Father) to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
I read that as "It was the Fathers good will to make all His fulness dwell in the Jesus, the Anointed One"
Col 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness.
"Now through the Anointed One the Father is making all His fulness dwell in us"
1 Cor 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet."[c] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
"Soon the Father will have pored His fulness through His only begotten Son, and us as many sons unto glory, into the entire creation, setting them free into the glorious liberty of the children of God"
vs 27 and 28, for me, show the relationship between the Father and Son very clearly and I see Jesus as the subordinate in the relationship. Paul clearly states the Father put all things under/into Christ, and the Psalmist bears witness- "Sit thou at my right hand until I(Father) make all your enemies your footstool".
that was a great post John :dsunny:
QuotePerhaps....as I read it He said, before Abraham was, I am". He did not say, "I am YHWH"-
well, in that passage, yes, he is saying he is YHWH. I AM is the memorial name for God. I AM is YAH.
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said,
Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.--Ex 3
"Tell the children of Israel, YAH has sent me unto you."
The priests knew he was claiming to be God. They knew he was claiming to the the YHWH of the Old Testament. That's why they killed him for blasphemy. The Rider on the Clouds in the Old Testament is God, he is YHWH.
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.
67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,
68 Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?
Mat 26
If Jesus isn't God, who cares if he died?
If Jesus is God, then you are stuck with the trinity. And, you don't want to be there, I guess, stuck with the trinity, so the next best thing is to say Jesus isn't God. I can finally see where everyone is going with this.
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
--John 8
He tells the Jews, Abraham rejoiced when he saw my day. And, the Jews make fun of him, --how did you know Abraham? You're not even 50 years old. ha ha ha
Then he tells them, YAH was before Abraham.
Now they again understand he is saying he is YHWH and they go to stone him for blasphemy.
Good luck with that. He made himself invisible because it was not yet his time.
Molly , you mean the Holy One , of Israel ?
2Ki 19:22 Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted [thy] voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? [even] against the Holy [One] of Israel. Job 6:10 Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Quote from: rosered on June 05, 2013, 10:00:57 PM
Molly , you mean the Holy One , of Israel ?
2Ki 19:22 Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted [thy] voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? [even] against the Holy [One] of Israel. Job 6:10 Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Yes.
Thus says the LORD [YHWH], your Redeemer,
the Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD [YHWH] your God, who teaches you to profit, who leads you in the way you should go.
--Isa 48:17
I still have not seen one thread of proof of the trinity theory. Every time the trinitarians reply to questions here they quote scripture to prove the Yashua is the Son of YHVH. Jesus like me shares in His fathers glory and name. You can stop proving that Jesus is the Son of God now prove your theory. Theories must be proven if they are to be accepted as truth. The Word of God is truth, prove the trinity with the Word of God without revisiting things that are not being disputed here. For the record I think we all agree that Yashua is the Son of God.
DuWayne
Do we all agree Jesus is God? Otherwise, I have to start there to prove the trinity.
wondering about this...Jesus Christ..though being in nature God...when he found himself in flesh...
did not consider himself equal unto God..but humbled himself.
nature God..in particular...what is being expressed? his humbling of himself as not God's =
I don't know if looking into this will help clear it,or not?
to me..having the nature of God is the life in himself granted of the Father. the servants /flesh/form
is a vessel form that does not always remain in the Father's house....but the son status does[life in
himself/God nature]
just pondering...
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 12:06:39 AM
Do we all agree Jesus is God? Otherwise, I have to start there to prove the trinity.
Yes in the since that they share the title of God, but YHVH is the one God and Christ in Him, serving Him humbly. Like I said I share my earthly fathers name but I am not him. My father and I share much of the same DNA but that still does not make me him. In many ways I am like my father but I could never be him. The Christ is not and has not become his own father.
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 06, 2013, 01:15:03 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 12:06:39 AM
Do we all agree Jesus is God? Otherwise, I have to start there to prove the trinity.
Yes in the since that they share the title of God, but YHVH is the one God and Christ in Him, serving Him humbly. Like I said I share my earthly fathers name but I am not him. My father and I share much of the same DNA but that still does not make me him. In many ways I am like my father but I could never be him. The Christ is not and has not become his own father.
I keep thinking you are playing with words. I am in Christ and Christ is in God, so am I God, too? Am I God in the same sense that Jesus is? So, is Jesus God in his own right or not?
What makes Jesus different in nature from me?
Again, is Jesus God?
PS you could be your father if you and he had the same DNA, that is, if you were a clone, just saying.
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 06, 2013, 01:15:03 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 12:06:39 AM
Do we all agree Jesus is God? Otherwise, I have to start there to prove the trinity.
Yes in the since that they share the title of God, but YHVH is the one God and Christ in Him, serving Him humbly. Like I said I share my earthly fathers name but I am not him. My father and I share much of the same DNA but that still does not make me him. In many ways I am like my father but I could never be him. The Christ is not and has not become his own father.
I was thinking the same thing. Jesus told the jews "I said ye are gods." also in (Eph. 3:14-15) For this cause I bow my knees unto
the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ of whome the whole family in heaven and earth is NAMED. This tells me that everything will have the Father's name because we are His sons and daughters and what family doesn't go by their father's name?
CHB
6Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.
7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
he took the humble position of a slave
and was born as a human being.
When he appeared in human form,
8 he humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal's death on a cross.
--Phil 2
Could everyone agree with this statement?
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 01:41:27 AM
6Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.
7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
he took the humble position of a slave
and was born as a human being.
When he appeared in human form,
8 he humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal's death on a cross.
--Phil 2
Could everyone agree with this statement?
Molly I do believe it is the first post of yours on this thread that I will agree with.
Oh yea, well, you do know that there supposedly has never been a successful human clone right?
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 06, 2013, 02:13:15 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 01:41:27 AM
6Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.
7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
he took the humble position of a slave
and was born as a human being.
When he appeared in human form,
8 he humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal's death on a cross.
--Phil 2
Could everyone agree with this statement?
Molly I do believe it is the first post of yours on this thread that I will agree with.
Oh yea, well, you do know that there supposedly has never been a successful human clone right?
So we agree that Jesus is God? Does that mean we can count at least two Gods--God the Father and God the Son?
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is,
God with us.--Mat 1
PS If you don't think they have cloned a man, yet, I have a bridge in brooklyn to sell you.
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 01:30:21 AM
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 06, 2013, 01:15:03 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 12:06:39 AM
Do we all agree Jesus is God? Otherwise, I have to start there to prove the trinity.
Yes in the since that they share the title of God, but YHVH is the one God and Christ in Him, serving Him humbly. Like I said I share my earthly fathers name but I am not him. My father and I share much of the same DNA but that still does not make me him. In many ways I am like my father but I could never be him. The Christ is not and has not become his own father.
I keep thinking you are playing with words. I am in Christ and Christ is in God, so am I God, too? Am I God in the same sense that Jesus is? So, is Jesus God in his own right or not?
What makes Jesus different in nature from me?
Again, is Jesus God?
PS you could be your father if you and he had the same DNA, that is, if you were a clone, just saying.
To your first question I say
QuoteActs 17
29 So if we are God's children, we shouldn't think that the divine being is like an image made from gold, silver, or stone, an image that is the product of human imagination and skill.
To your second question NO. Jesus is God's first Son and we are growing into the Sons of God. God made everything from his own DNA.
QuoteGenesis 1
1 In the beginning God created heaven and earth.
From what substance did he create everything from nothing? DNA the smallest piece of material with God's fingerprint on every piece of you. Dirt and people share some DNA (we were made from dirt).
To the third question I don't know what you mean by "in his own right"
Fourth question "is Jesus God?" I covered this with the whole DNA thing but technically he would have some of Mary's DNA which would disqualify Him from being YHVH. YHVH is the source of all DNA, we truly are His sons and daughters.
QuoteWhat makes Jesus different in nature from me?
We share DNA but we are not cloned.
Peace sister
DuWayne
IMO "proving" the Trinity is just re-issuing a doctrine of man that began 5 centuries after the birth of the ecclesia. A person can believe Jesus is God without believing in the orthodox Trinity doctrine which, again, imo, is an obeisence to the mythology and philosophy of the early apostate Greeks and Romans, forcefully adopted by the Roman Church under threat of death by Constantine who was a devil of major proportions and switched back and forth on his views frequently until it became politically expedient to settle with bishop Anathasius on the Trinity.
We are all about translation and context when it comes to UR, but when it comes to these other Catholic and Protestant doctrinal icons, imo- we get religious as all get out and very comfortable with translations springing from King James and the RCC. To "prove" that Jesus is equal to the Father you have to cut about 25 verses of His words and Pauls words out of the topical context by rationalization and explaining the Lord's words to Him as if He didnt understand what He meant- and as if Paul didnt understand what he was saying- and good thing we got the English Bible to figure it out for them and zip it up in a systematic theology(idol) crowned by anothernon-scriptural "word/label" (Trinity, Modalist, Unitarian, etc) and proceed to pull down the blinders and separate over terms that dont mean the same thing to individuals among the groups who use them.
The Catholic Trinity is the accepted orthodox doctrine of almost all the institutional churches and IMO, it is the "hook" by which they are blinded and bound and gagged into ignoring a "less defined" but "more invigorating and challenging" view that the scriptures present. I began to mistrust the ET doctrine as I became more aware of when and where it started- which was clearly at the same "conventions" of apostates that the Trinity got started at if one studies history.
IMO, You can put Trinity on a list with Rapture, Hell, Eternal Torment, Absolute Free Will, Absolute Predestination, Baptismal Salvation, You Must Speak In Tongues To BE Baptized In The Spirit, The Gifts Of The SPirit Died With The Apostles and a bunch of other one sided, imbalanced religious towers, strongholds and such as make it easy to hide behind concepts of men in division from one another rather than to hash things out using ALL the scriptures and seeing how close we can get to each other :o)
IMO Jesus does not have to be co-equal to the Father to be God any more than a river needs to be an ocean to be water.
And lest anyone misunderstand, I don't mind at all if the Trinity concept explains the Deity for someone- And I have known some beautiful believers of every persuasion. In my oppinion, in this age, all one needs to "believe" is that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God, lived a beautiful sinless life perfected in love, died a substitute for guilty man and was raised from the dead in the flesh and in the Spirit and is alive Today, to become a "member" of the houehold of faith.
Membership has privileges and responsibilities. IMO Believing in the Trinity(or any other polarizing "label/icon") is not one of them.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 06, 2013, 02:45:51 AM
IMO, You can put Trinity on a list with Rapture, Hell, Eternal Torment, Absolute Free Will, Absolute Predestination, Baptismal Salvation, You Must Speak In Tongues To BE Baptized In The Spirit, The Gifts Of The SPirit Died With The Apostles and a bunch of other one sided, imbalanced religious towers, strongholds and such as make it easy to hide behind concepts of men in division from one another rather than to hash things out using ALL the scriptures and seeing how close we can get to each other :o)
IMO Jesus does not have to be co-equal to the Father to be God any more than a river needs to be an ocean to be water.
:iagree: This was the most beautiful post so far in this thread IMHO
well, ok, I don't seem to be making much progress here. I seem to be the only one who believes Jesus is God, was God, and will be God forever. [which, I will admit, is a little disappointing.]
If there are others, you could help me out lol.
But, if you want me to prove the trinity, which presupposes three Gods, or, more like it, God in three persons, then it seems like I would have to start with Jesus.
Quote from: Molly on June 05, 2013, 09:32:28 PM
QuotePerhaps....as I read it He said, before Abraham was, I am". He did not say, "I am YHWH"-
well, in that passage, yes, he is saying he is YHWH. I AM is the memorial name for God. I AM is YAH.
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
--Ex 3
"Tell the children of Israel, YAH has sent me unto you."
The priests knew he was claiming to be God. They knew he was claiming to the the YHWH of the Old Testament. That's why they killed him for blasphemy. The Rider on the Clouds in the Old Testament is God, he is YHWH.
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.
67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,
68 Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?
Mat 26
If Jesus isn't God, who cares if he died?
If Jesus is God, then you are stuck with the trinity. And, you don't want to be there, I guess, stuck with the trinity, so the next best thing is to say Jesus isn't God. I can finally see where everyone is going with this.
Ex 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." He said further, "Thus you shall say to the Israelites, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
the LXX translates I AM WHO I AM as eimi ho eimi
1 Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God
I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.
also eimi(1510) ho(3588) eimi(1510)
Is Paul also claiming to be God?
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 03:10:43 AM
well, ok, I don't seem to be making much progress here. I seem to be the only one who believes Jesus is God, was God, and will be God forever. [which, I will admit, is a little disappointing.]
If there are others, you could help me out lol.
But, if you want me to prove the trinity, which presupposes three Gods, or, more like it, God in three persons, then it seems like I would have to start with Jesus.
That is a good place to start since this is what the Word says
John 1
1 In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was already with God in the beginning.
3 Everything came into existence through him. Not one thing that exists was made without him.
4 He was the source of life, and that life was the light for humanity.
5 The light shines in the dark, and the dark has never extinguished it
Truly the Son of God
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 06, 2013, 03:13:22 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 05, 2013, 09:32:28 PM
QuotePerhaps....as I read it He said, before Abraham was, I am". He did not say, "I am YHWH"-
well, in that passage, yes, he is saying he is YHWH. I AM is the memorial name for God. I AM is YAH.
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
--Ex 3
"Tell the children of Israel, YAH has sent me unto you."
The priests knew he was claiming to be God. They knew he was claiming to the the YHWH of the Old Testament. That's why they killed him for blasphemy. The Rider on the Clouds in the Old Testament is God, he is YHWH.
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.
67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,
68 Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?
Mat 26
If Jesus isn't God, who cares if he died?
If Jesus is God, then you are stuck with the trinity. And, you don't want to be there, I guess, stuck with the trinity, so the next best thing is to say Jesus isn't God. I can finally see where everyone is going with this.
Ex 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." He said further, "Thus you shall say to the Israelites, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
the LXX translates I AM WHO I AM as eimi ho eimi
1 Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.
also eimi(1510) ho(3588) eimi(1510)
Is Paul also claiming to be God?
No, Paul is just talking. I am a man. That's just the English language.
But, if I were telling you I knew Abraham and Abraham told me how happy he was that I would be standing here with you today, and if you said when did you know Abraham, you're not even 50 years old, and I said, YAH was before Abraham, [before Abraham, I AM]--then I am giving you a message. And, the message was so strong to the Jews who understood what he was saying, that they went to stone him --right there on the spot--for blasphemy.
Context is everything.
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 06, 2013, 03:18:02 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 03:10:43 AM
well, ok, I don't seem to be making much progress here. I seem to be the only one who believes Jesus is God, was God, and will be God forever. [which, I will admit, is a little disappointing.]
If there are others, you could help me out lol.
But, if you want me to prove the trinity, which presupposes three Gods, or, more like it, God in three persons, then it seems like I would have to start with Jesus.
That is a good place to start since this is what the Word says
John 1
1 In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was already with God in the beginning.
3 Everything came into existence through him. Not one thing that exists was made without him.
4 He was the source of life, and that life was the light for humanity.
5 The light shines in the dark, and the dark has never extinguished it
Truly the Son of God
This passage is talking about God the Creator.
This passage is saying Jesus is God the Creator.
As is this one:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:--Col 1
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 03:24:45 AM
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 06, 2013, 03:18:02 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 03:10:43 AM
well, ok, I don't seem to be making much progress here. I seem to be the only one who believes Jesus is God, was God, and will be God forever. [which, I will admit, is a little disappointing.]
If there are others, you could help me out lol.
But, if you want me to prove the trinity, which presupposes three Gods, or, more like it, God in three persons, then it seems like I would have to start with Jesus.
That is a good place to start since this is what the Word says
John 1
1 In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was already with God in the beginning.
3 Everything came into existence through him. Not one thing that exists was made without him.
4 He was the source of life, and that life was the light for humanity.
5 The light shines in the dark, and the dark has never extinguished it
Truly the Son of God
This passage is talking about God the Creator.
This passage is saying Jesus is God the Creator.
As is this one:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
--Col 1
Bingo Molly
Quotein the beginning the Word existed
, this is the Son. In our beginning the Son was already personally responsible for us and all of creation. He served His Master well and will continue until
Quote1 Corinthians 15
24 Then the end will come. Christ will hand over the kingdom to God the Father as he destroys every ruler, authority, and power.
Please don't tell me that this proves the trinity theory. The Son will hand over the kingdom to His Father who is obviously the greater One.
It doesn't say there the Father is 'the greater one.'
I'm just really confused about what you believe. You said 'Bingo" to Jesus is God the Creator.
But you think there is a greater God than God the Creator?
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 04:07:20 AM
It doesn't say there the Father is 'the greater one.'
I'm just really confused about what you believe. You said 'Bingo" to Jesus is God the Creator.
But you think there is a greater God than God the Creator?
Sorry I should have specified and yes you are correct the scripture does not say that but like your trinity theory it is implied. If Yashua hands over the kingdom to YHVY then it could be assumed.
John 1
14 The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness
and truth.
Quotewell, ok, I don't seem to be making much progress here. I seem to be the only one who believes Jesus is God, was God, and will be God forever. [which, I will admit, is a little disappointing.]
If there are others, you could help me out lol.
But, if you want me to prove the trinity, which presupposes three Gods, or, more like it, God in three persons, then it seems like I would have to start with Jesus.
I tried Molly but it seems futile
I am not sure anyone believes what was posted :sigh:
But for me only this is what I consider the Holy Spririt
Mother Wisdom . God the Father and Jesus Christ Son of God those 3 ='' the Holy Spirit ''comforter '' as a mother loves and comforts a child , those 3 natures as ONE SPIRIT seems to complete the unity 3 is 1
, very little is said about Gods Wisdom forth right , she has been a hidden treasure to seek and find set up from everlasting the begining and By Him
since even you do not believe this , I shall bow out , and God bless you all each and every one
looking and searching to find proof :HeartThrob:
22 The
Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way,
before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27
When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree,
that the waters should not pass his commandment:
when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30
Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;31
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
and my delights were with the sons of men.32
Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children:
for blessed are they that keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not
Quote from: rosered on June 06, 2013, 04:30:48 AM
Quotewell, ok, I don't seem to be making much progress here. I seem to be the only one who believes Jesus is God, was God, and will be God forever. [which, I will admit, is a little disappointing.]
If there are others, you could help me out lol.
But, if you want me to prove the trinity, which presupposes three Gods, or, more like it, God in three persons, then it seems like I would have to start with Jesus.
I tried Molly but it seems futile
I am not sure anyone believes what was posted :sigh:
But for me only this is what I consider the Holy Spririt
Mother Wisdom . God the Father and Jesus Christ Son of God those 3 =" the Holy Spirit "comforter " as a mother loves and comforts a child , those 3 natures as ONE SPIRIT seems to complete the unity 3 is 1
, very little is said about Gods Wisdom forth right , she has been a hidden treasure to seek and find set up from everlasting the begining and By Him
since even you do not believe this , I shall bow out , and God bless you all each and every one
looking and searching to find proof :HeartThrob:
22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.32
Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not
I'm listening to you, rosered. It's new to me, this teaching about wisdom, so I am mulling it over and thinking about it. You shouldn't bow out. I always love to read your posts.
Molly Have been enjoying your posts you do make some very valid points with scripture
This is what made me ''come out '' of hiding :laughing7: , where I just usually read
Changing in spiritual growth by the grace of God , a thankful and humbled by His mercy always .
God bless ya sis ! :girlheart:
Molly, I'm not going any further into the Trinity discussion, but I believe Jesus is God. God the Son. I of course don't believe He's God the Father, who I believe is Supreme, with His Son subject to Him - similar to how an earthly father is (traditionally considered) the head of the household. My son and I are both Berrys. But I'm the father, and as long as he's in my house especially - I expect respect and even submission at some point (or maybe deference is a better word). If/when he moves out, that interaction may change. But he'll always be both a Berry (same substance) and my son. I see it same with YHWH and Yashua - same substance (God, holy, divine), but one Father and one Son. And I don't see that ever changing, as Jesus will never move out of His Father's house - they will always interact as One. IMO, MOSTLY, the Trinity discussion often comes down to whether someone sees the Holy Spirit as a Person or as the breath, active force, the Spirit that emanates from God when He "moves". I choose to not get into the specifics of that at present. Some of my views, on many things, are still in process, as the Lord leads and teaches me. Far to go. And as John/eaglesway indicated, I too believe - these things may be important in terms of doctrine, growing in grace and knowledge as God gives revelation and understanding to each of us - but are NOT the things that determine one's standing with God through the application in each person's life of the saving blood of Jesus. :2c:
Here's where I am. :bigGrin: By grace are we saved through faith, and that not of ourselves. We overcome by the blood of the Lamb.
Thanks for that post, Jab. :thumbsup:
Before Abraham was, I AM. Jn 8:58. This catches our eye because of the odd construct, a past event [Before Abraham was] juxtaposed with a present tense. [I AM]. It works in Greek and even works in English. If we knew nothing about I AM being the memorial name of God, we would still understand what he was saying, in that he was identifying himself as a divine being who existed before Abraham. But, the Jews knew exactly who he was saying he was, because they moved to stone him immediately for blasphemy. The Jews knew I AM was YAH.
A Catholic friend said to me once, You mean Jesus existed before he was born in a manger? I was astounded at that question because surely the Catholic church teaches he did. But, this person never read a Bible and the mass was in Latin. Then again, just the other day, I heard my favorite Catholic priest on the radio tell his Christian [mostly Catholic presumably] listeners they were all members of the Melchizedek priesthood. That also astounded me because I doubt that is routinely taught in the Catholic church but this priest is always standing on scripture instead of what is approved by the church to be taught.
I think on the other side of things, we can get put off by the humanity of Jesus. For instance, why does Jesus need to receive the Holy Spirit if he is God? First, though, John the Baptist says a similar thing to Jn 8:58 about Jesus. Even though John is six months older than Jesus, he says this:
27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
John is saying, Jesus existed before John did even though Jesus was born after John. When Jesus comes to John to be baptized, John does not want to do it, saying, I am not worthy to untie your sandals. But, Jesus insists, so that scripture might be fulfilled. Then we see the HS descend in the form of a dove [the symbol of peace and reconciliation from Noah's covenant with God], and God the Father speaking from heaven gives us two witnesses to the Son of God.
Again, why does Jesus need to be baptized if he is God? I believe because everything Jesus did is everything we will do, following in his footsteps, to reach the place we will eventually reach as co-inheritors with Christ. He did every step first, from baptism to resurrection, first to show us the Way, second to become the Way for us, and most particularly because, as God, he must be pre-eminent in all things, including this, the firstborn of many brothers. Rom 8:29
The oneness of the Father and the Son
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. [NIV]
No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father's heart. He has revealed God to us.[NLT]
No man has seen God at any time; The Only Begotten God Who is in the bosom of The Father, he has declared him." [Aramaic Bible in Plain English]
--John 1:18
The KJV also tells us Jesus is 'in the bosom' of the Father in Jn 1:18. What does that mean?
"bosom"
Synonyms
noun. heart
This is literally saying Jesus is the heart of the Father.
Jesus tells us he "proceeded forth" from the Father.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Jn 8
I "proceeded forth" [and came from God]
G1831
ἐξέρχομαι
exerchomai
ex-er'-khom-ahee
From G1537 and G2064; to issue (literally or figuratively): - come-(forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go (abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread abroad.
God the Father has literally given his heart to the world.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16
Even "separated" from the Father as he walked this earth, he tells us. I am in the Father and the Father is in me.
For this reason, Jesus can tell us, "I and the Father are one." Jn 10:30
Neither is Jesus just a chip off the old block. But, rather he is the exact image of the invisible God, Col.1:15 .
When we look at Jesus, we are not seeing someone who is related to the Father or sort of like the Father, rather, we are seeing the Father himself, the incarnation of the invisible God.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
--John 14
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 04:07:20 AM
It doesn't say there the Father is 'the greater one.'
I'm just really confused about what you believe. You said 'Bingo" to Jesus is God the Creator.
But you think there is a greater God than God the Creator?
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father:
for my Father is greater than I.
Why did Jesus say, "why callest thou me good? There is none good but my Father which is in heaven."?! This has always puzzled me. Forgive me if this has already been discussed here.
Quote from: Colleen on June 06, 2013, 03:46:41 PM
Why did Jesus say, "why callest thou me good? There is none good but my Father which is in heaven."?! This has always puzzled me. Forgive me if this has already been discussed here.
Hi Colleen ,
That is just a great question !
A comfort for me was Jesus come to glorify His Father and less focus on himself
Worship God , He also said , unless they would begin to idolize him in human form , We are knowing Jesus was so much more than just a man , that the Father would glorify His Son , Jesus never wanted praises of men , but to Honor His Father
Wanting to help by sharing thoughts
Quote from: eaglesway on June 06, 2013, 02:55:28 AM
And lest anyone misunderstand, I don't mind at all if the Trinity concept explains the Deity for someone- And I have known some beautiful believers of every persuasion. In my oppinion, in this age, all one needs to "believe" is that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God, lived a beautiful sinless life perfected in love, died a substitute for guilty man and was raised from the dead in the flesh and in the Spirit and is alive Today, to become a "member" of the houehold of faith.
Membership has privileges and responsibilities. IMO Believing in the Trinity(or any other polarizing "label/icon") is not one of them.
I take issue with Jesus being our substitute.... :HeartThrob: Perhaps a new thread, but it was here I noticed it.
Substitute..to put instead of. A person or thing serving or used in place of another. If as you say Jesus was our subsitute, then we don't have to die. Because Jesus died INSTEAD of us.
But the Bible states in Gen. 2:17 thou shalt surely die.
And Paul wrote Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death and the writer of Heb.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die.
I do not believe that Jesus was our
instead of..substitute. He died FOR
not instead of the sins of the whole world
Joh 1:29 taketh away the sin of the world. Yet we all must pay the wages for
our sins and that payment is death.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. He atoned for the sins of the whole world, still we must pay the wage. Or not?
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that
Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
QuoteIf as you say Jesus was our subsitute, then we don't have to die.
Exactly. We don't have to die. I keep trying to tell you that, Micah. Remember the first passover lamb? What happened? They put the blood of the lamb on the doorposts and every firstborn died around them but theirs did not have to die.
But Jesus is
the Lamb of God How much greater is He than the shadow?
Sometimes the church gets it right. :banana: :banana:
and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"--John 11:26
Quote from: rosered on June 06, 2013, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: Colleen on June 06, 2013, 03:46:41 PM
Why did Jesus say, "why callest thou me good? There is none good but my Father which is in heaven."?! This has always puzzled me. Forgive me if this has already been discussed here.
Hi Colleen ,
That is just a great question !
A comfort for me was Jesus come to glorify His Father and less focus on himself
Worship God , He also said , unless they would begin to idolize him in human form , We are knowing Jesus was so much more than just a man , that the Father would glorify His Son , Jesus never wanted praises of men , but to Honor His Father
Wanting to help by sharing thoughts
Yes, also Jesus makes this statement for our edification while he is walking the earth in a human body.
Because we know that even in a human body he was without sin.
Jesus points to the Father and the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit points to Jesus and to the Father.
The Father sends the Son and sends the Holy Spirit.
Would you say that all three together are God?
The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all present at the creation as God.
1In the beginning was
the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
--John 1
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And
the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
--Gen 1
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: --Gen 1
Quote from: CHB on June 06, 2013, 01:34:42 AM
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 06, 2013, 01:15:03 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 12:06:39 AM
Do we all agree Jesus is God? Otherwise, I have to start there to prove the trinity.
Yes in the since that they share the title of God, but YHVH is the one God and Christ in Him, serving Him humbly. Like I said I share my earthly fathers name but I am not him. My father and I share much of the same DNA but that still does not make me him. In many ways I am like my father but I could never be him. The Christ is not and has not become his own father.
I was thinking the same thing. Jesus told the jews "I said ye are gods." also in (Eph. 3:14-15) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ of whome the whole family in heaven and earth is NAMED.
This tells me that everything will have the Father's name because we are His sons and daughters and what family doesn't go by their father's name?
CHB
Yes - as Herbert W. Armstrong said, when you become a Christian, you become adopted into the GOD family. I read in the New Testament that "We shall be like Him." The best clues may just be in Jesus' prayer on the Mount of Olives, just before His arrest.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 06, 2013, 03:39:36 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 04:07:20 AM
It doesn't say there the Father is 'the greater one.'
I'm just really confused about what you believe. You said 'Bingo" to Jesus is God the Creator.
But you think there is a greater God than God the Creator?
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
While he walked on this earth, Jesus was limited by a human body. He humbled himself to appear in human form. Even so, we are told
"in him dwelleth the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Col 2:9 It's interesting how they put that. It doesn't say the fullness of the Father bodily.
"Godhead"G2320
θεότης
theotēstheh-to'-ace
From G2316;
divinity (abstractly): -
godhead.For me, the Godhead is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, also known as God.
And as much as could be present in a human body, Jesus had it--filled to the brim and overflowing-- while he walked on this earth.
This is neither in support of the trinity concept, nor in opposition to it:
Genesis 2:24 - Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
Matthew 19:5 - and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?
Mark 10:8 - and the two shall become one flesh.' So they are no longer two but one flesh.
Ephesians 5:31 - "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."
John 10.30 - I and the Father are one.
John 17:11b - ...Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
John 17:21a - that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you...
2 Cor 3:17 - Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
2 Cor 3:18 - And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
"Lord" in 2 Cor 3.17-18 is from the Greek word kyrios:
1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah
Here is what I am seeing here:
Jesus said he and the father are one. Perhaps he meant this in the same sense that a man and his wife are one - not literally one entity, but rather in the oneness of complete unity. Later Paul said that the Lord is the Spirit. The word "Lord" in the scriptures is used to refer to both God and Jesus. I lean toward seeing the word "Lord" in 2 Cor 3.17-18 as referring to the Father. I don't know of any scriptures that actually teach the concept of the trinity. There is one passage, 1 John 5.7-8, which in some translations contain text that would support the trinity concept:
1 John 5.7-8 [KJV] - 7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
Notice how the ESV version differs from the KJV:
1 John 5.7-8 [ESV] - 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.
The notes in the NIV tell us that, "Late manuscripts of the Vulgate [say] 'testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the' ([but these words are] not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)"
Hmmm. :Chinscratch:
What does the term Godhead mean?
The word "Godhead" occurs in the King James Version only 3 times (it is not found in the NIC or NASB) Acts 17:29; Rom 1:20; Col. 2:9, and it translates slightly different each time, though closely related (In Greek- theion, theiotes, theotes). Theion means "that which is Divine," Paul uses this word in Acts 17:29 in an address made to a heathen audience. The Greeks used it in the sense of "the Divine Being," as a general term to designate "the Deity" apart from reference to a particular god.
This passage in Col.2:9 and one other are the most explicit statements of Christ's deity in the New Testament. Col.2:9 "For in him dwells (lives) the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (bodily form). "God was in Christ" (2 Cor.5:19).
All that makes God who He is, is to be found in Jesus. This does not exclude that the Father is also fully God or the Holy Spirit (the Helper) is fully God. This should not be confused to a similar word in Romans 1:20, theiotes, expressing the quality of God, or divinity. It is not that certain aspects dwell in Jesus Christ in bodily form, but He by His very nature is God, the Supreme Being, our creator.
"Godhead" is from two Greek words theos and deitas combined in Gr. theioteôs. The scriptural term Godhead (KJV) is rendered "divine nature" or "deity"; it means the very essence of God. The meaning of the term "fullness of the godhead" is that Jesus was fully God on earth just as His Father is fully in heaven. The point made in this Scripture is that Jesus was 100% God in the flesh. So this term is proving He is the second person of the Tri-unity, of the Godhead. This nature of God is shared among three and no more. That deity has a permanent home in Christ in bodily fashion (Col.2:9), all the divine nature, all that makes God who he is, is resident in the body form of Jesus. B.B. Warfield states, "that which makes God, God." For in him dwells (lives) is a present tense verb, which means a continuing action. That deity now permanently resides in his body, in Greek, katoikeo, meaning to house permanently. This means that the Son continues to exist in a body. Yet there are those who say the Son had a beginning and will have an ending. As man He did have a beginning but as God He was eternal. (Micah.5:2)
Col.1:19 says before 2:9, "For It pleased the Father that in Him should dwell all the fullness" (Greek- pleroma). Meaning, the totality of the Divine powers and attributes are filled up in Jesus- God's omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence. This same letter had already affirmed the pre-existence of the Son in Col. 1:15-17, and in 1:3 it distinguishes the Lord Jesus Christ from the Father. Since He was the Word that was "with" God at the creation of all things and was God (John 1:1, 18; Phil.2:6).
The fullness of the Godhead was in Christ as He took flesh. When it says "all the fullness should dwell," this is defined as the totality of the Divine powers and attributes" (i.e. Lightfoot) "should dwell," meaning to make an abode or home. All the same divine attributes that are in the Father are at home in Jesus' body also. Therefore this is a proclamation of God becoming man and living on earth.
We see this illustrated when Jesus was baptized, coming up from the water: the heavens were opened, and saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and resting upon him; a voice came out of the heavens, saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" (Matthew 3:13-17). In this passage we see God (YHWH) the Father in heaven speaking, God the Son on earth receiving, as God the Spirit in the form of a dove descended upon God the Son. Here the three distinct Persons are active composing the Godhead.
Later after the crucifixion and resurrection the disciple were commissioned to baptize believers, not into names (plural), but into the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of plurality of the Godhead— a tri-unity (the Trinity) is exhibited by Jesus' command.
Matthew 28:19,20 we have the order as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I Corinthians 12:4-6 it is in the order of the Holy Spirit, the Lord Jesus and God the Father.
Ephesians 4:4-6 the order is the Holy Spirit, the Son and the Father. They are coequal, coeternal, possessing the nature of God, thus comprising the Triunity.
On Mars Hill the Apostle Paul told the Athenians that "we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and device of man" (Acts 17:29). The word Godhead here is be understood as that which is divine, or deity. In other words nothing that man makes can represent God correctly.
http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp218.htm
Quote from: jbb1 John 5.7-8 [KJV] - 7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
Notice how the ESV version differs from the KJV:
1 John 5.7-8 [ESV] - 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.
The notes in the NIV tell us that, "Late manuscripts of the Vulgate [say] 'testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the' ([but these words are] not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)"
Don't worry about it, the three are found together elsewhere in the Bible.
For instance, here:
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him,
they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen
--Mat 28
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 06:19:28 PM
QuoteIf as you say Jesus was our subsitute, then we don't have to die.
Exactly. We don't have to die. I keep trying to tell you that, Micah. Remember the first passover lamb? What happened? They put the blood of the lamb on the doorposts and every firstborn died around them but theirs did not have to die.
But Jesus is the Lamb of God How much greater is He than the shadow?
Sometimes the church gets it right. :banana: :banana:
and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
--John 11:26
Even if one gets hung up on physical death, there's still the spiritual death/life in question. We were "once DEAD in our trespasses and sins".
I'm having a discussion right now through email with a brother about the sacrifice/atonement. I'm not saying micah is, but many are attempting to take the sacrifice out of things. Hebrews 10 explains it well. Blessings, James.
Quote from: jabcat on June 06, 2013, 11:53:20 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 06:19:28 PM
QuoteIf as you say Jesus was our subsitute, then we don't have to die.
Exactly. We don't have to die. I keep trying to tell you that, Micah. Remember the first passover lamb? What happened? They put the blood of the lamb on the doorposts and every firstborn died around them but theirs did not have to die.
But Jesus is the Lamb of God How much greater is He than the shadow?
Sometimes the church gets it right. :banana: :banana:
and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
--John 11:26
Even if one gets hung up on physical death, there's still the spiritual death/life in question. We were "once DEAD in our trespasses and sins".
I'm having a discussion right now through email with a brother about the sacrifice/atonement. I'm not saying micah is, but many are attempting to take the sacrifice out of things. Hebrews 10 explains it well. Blessings, James.
well, I am talking about spiritual life, or however you want to put it, continuing after death of the body. That's what Paul was talking about in 2 Cor 5.
To be clothed upon...in heaven. We will be in heaven. And, we will not be naked spirits in heaven.
The church didn't make this stuff up. It's in the Bible, in more than one place.
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.--2 Cor 5
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 06:19:28 PM
QuoteIf as you say Jesus was our subsitute, then we don't have to die.
Exactly. We don't have to die. I keep trying to tell you that, Micah. Remember the first passover lamb? What happened? They put the blood of the lamb on the doorposts and every firstborn died around them but theirs did not have to die.
But Jesus is the Lamb of God How much greater is He than the shadow?
Sometimes the church gets it right. :banana: :banana:
and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
--John 11:26
This kind of thinking is why I left off listening to and reading any type of denominational teaching. :sigh:
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 09:14:32 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 06, 2013, 03:39:36 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 04:07:20 AM
It doesn't say there the Father is 'the greater one.'
I'm just really confused about what you believe. You said 'Bingo" to Jesus is God the Creator.
But you think there is a greater God than God the Creator?
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
While he walked on this earth, Jesus was limited by a human body. He humbled himself to appear in human form. Even so, we are told "in him dwelleth the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Col 2:9 It's interesting how they put that. It doesn't say the fullness of the Father bodily.
"Godhead"
G2320
θεότης
theotēs
theh-to'-ace
From G2316; divinity (abstractly): - godhead.
For me, the Godhead is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, also known as God.
And as much as could be present in a human body, Jesus had it--filled to the brim and overflowing-- while he walked on this earth.
It is this kind of thinking is why I quit listening to and reading denominational teaching, I was dragged out of Egypt. :dsunny:
Quote from: Molly on June 07, 2013, 12:03:43 AM
well, I am talking about spiritual life, or however you want to put it, continuing after death of the body. That's what Paul was talking about in 2 Cor 5. To be clothed upon...in heaven. We will be in heaven. And, we will not be naked spirits in heaven.
The church didn't make this stuff up. It's in the Bible, in more than one place.
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
--2 Cor 5
Yes, spiritual death/life was my point. I think often that's overlooked in such discussions, and physical death is focused on. We are spiritually dead without Christ. With Him, through His death on the cross, the sacrifice for our sins, and being given the faith to believe on Him, we are spiritually reborn, i.e., alive.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 07, 2013, 12:08:45 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 06:19:28 PM
QuoteIf as you say Jesus was our subsitute, then we don't have to die.
Exactly. We don't have to die. I keep trying to tell you that, Micah. Remember the first passover lamb? What happened? They put the blood of the lamb on the doorposts and every firstborn died around them but theirs did not have to die.
But Jesus is the Lamb of God How much greater is He than the shadow?
Sometimes the church gets it right. :banana: :banana:
and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
--John 11:26
This kind of thinking is why I left off listening to and reading any type of denominational teaching. :sigh:
Don't worry, Micah. I get thrown out of every church I try to enter, too. They don't like me, either.
But, now you've gone from the frying pan into the fire. :laugh:
Quote from: jabcat on June 07, 2013, 12:14:35 AM
With Him, through His death on the cross, the sacrifice for our sins, and being given the faith to believe on Him, we are spiritually reborn, i.e., alive.
Paul calls it "
made alive".
Quote from: jabcat on June 07, 2013, 12:14:35 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 07, 2013, 12:03:43 AM
well, I am talking about spiritual life, or however you want to put it, continuing after death of the body. That's what Paul was talking about in 2 Cor 5. To be clothed upon...in heaven. We will be in heaven. And, we will not be naked spirits in heaven.
The church didn't make this stuff up. It's in the Bible, in more than one place.
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
--2 Cor 5
Yes, spiritual death/life was my point. I think often that's overlooked in such discussions, and physical death is focused on. We are spiritually dead without Christ. With Him, through His death on the cross, the sacrifice for our sins, and being given the faith to believe on Him, we are spiritually reborn, i.e., alive.
Yes. He's made us alive and he tells us we will never, ever die. He uses a double negative, never never.
We will remain in heaven with him until the end of the Age when we return with him [as clouds] and receive our immortal bodies.
Unless, we are still here when he returns with the others [clouds], that is. In that case, we will not even experience the death of the physical body.
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment [No wages of sin, Micah], but has passed from death to life.--John 5:24
Micah, if you read the book of Ruth, you will learn about the kinsman-redeemer, who can redeem a close relative by paying his debts.
Jesus, God become flesh, is our kinsman-Redeemer. As our kinsman-Redeemer, he has paid all our debts of the flesh.
We are FREE.
Because God's children are human beings--made of flesh and blood--the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had the power of death.
--Heb 2:14
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
--1 Cor 2:8
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 11:46:03 PM
Quote from: jbb1 John 5.7-8 [KJV] - 7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
Notice how the ESV version differs from the KJV:
1 John 5.7-8 [ESV] - 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.
The notes in the NIV tell us that, "Late manuscripts of the Vulgate [say] 'testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the' ([but these words are] not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)"
Don't worry about it, the three are found together elsewhere in the Bible.
For instance, here:
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen
--Mat 28
I stated that I didn't know of any scriptures
that actually teach the concept of the trinity. This scripture does not teach that concept. Do you know of any that actually teach the concept?
Quote from: jbertonbounds on June 07, 2013, 12:59:37 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2013, 11:46:03 PM
Quote from: jbb1 John 5.7-8 [KJV] - 7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
Notice how the ESV version differs from the KJV:
1 John 5.7-8 [ESV] - 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.
The notes in the NIV tell us that, "Late manuscripts of the Vulgate [say] 'testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the' ([but these words are] not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)"
Don't worry about it, the three are found together elsewhere in the Bible.
For instance, here:
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen
--Mat 28
I stated that I didn't know of any scriptures that actually teach the concept of the trinity. This scripture does not teach that concept. Do you know of any that actually teach the concept?
well, I just have 21 pages, so far. Give me a chance. Have patience.
Good luck on that one jbertonbounds.
Quote from: jabcat on June 07, 2013, 12:14:35 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 07, 2013, 12:03:43 AM
well, I am talking about spiritual life, or however you want to put it, continuing after death of the body. That's what Paul was talking about in 2 Cor 5. To be clothed upon...in heaven. We will be in heaven. And, we will not be naked spirits in heaven.
The church didn't make this stuff up. It's in the Bible, in more than one place.
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
--2 Cor 5
Yes, spiritual death/life was my point. I think often that's overlooked in such discussions, and physical death is focused on. We are spiritually dead without Christ. With Him, through His death on the cross, the sacrifice for our sins, and being given the faith to believe on Him, we are spiritually reborn, i.e., alive.
So the man Jesus didn't die the death of Gen. 2:17 and the wages of sin is not dead death, but spiritual death. So Jesus was not raised from the dead. 1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
Okay , I think Im getting it?
Quote from: Molly
We will remain in heaven with him until the end of the Age when we return with him [as clouds] and receive our immortal bodies.
Molly, what kind of bodies do we have while we are in heaven with Him? You said "when we return we will recieve our immortal bodies".
CHB
Quote from: CHB on June 07, 2013, 01:43:39 AM
Quote from: Molly
We will remain in heaven with him until the end of the Age when we return with him [as clouds] and receive our immortal bodies.
Molly, what kind of bodies do we have while we are in heaven with Him? You said "when we return we will recieve our immortal bodies".
CHB
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal [aionios] body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.
6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.
--2 Cor 5
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 07, 2013, 01:10:01 AM
Quote from: jabcat on June 07, 2013, 12:14:35 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 07, 2013, 12:03:43 AM
well, I am talking about spiritual life, or however you want to put it, continuing after death of the body. That's what Paul was talking about in 2 Cor 5. To be clothed upon...in heaven. We will be in heaven. And, we will not be naked spirits in heaven.
The church didn't make this stuff up. It's in the Bible, in more than one place.
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
--2 Cor 5
Yes, spiritual death/life was my point. I think often that's overlooked in such discussions, and physical death is focused on. We are spiritually dead without Christ. With Him, through His death on the cross, the sacrifice for our sins, and being given the faith to believe on Him, we are spiritually reborn, i.e., alive.
So the man Jesus didn't die the death of Gen. 2:17 and the wages of sin is not dead death, but spiritual death. So Jesus was not raised from the dead. 1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
Okay , I think Im getting it?
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/did-jesus-die-11045/msg149366/#msg149366
Quote from: Molly on June 07, 2013, 01:59:42 AM
Quote from: CHB on June 07, 2013, 01:43:39 AM
Quote from: Molly
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal [aionios] body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.
6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.
--2 Cor 5
Hello again Molly,
This section of scripture IMO is not talking about and instantaneous thing that happens at death. When you die you will be sleeping and unaware of time. When Yahweh resurrects you it will surely seem instantaneous because you are completely dead until that happens. Dead dead dead.
I don't mean this as an insult but these points you continue to defend yourself with are all proofs that the propagandized "Christians" use to back up their erroneous interpretation of God's Word. If you truly believe in UR how do you reconcile these things?
Hi mpls,
I can only justify my reading of the text and try to read it as carefully as possible.
In 2 Cor 5, Paul is very specific. He talks about "when we die and leave this earthly body"--something is going to happen [we will be in heaven with the Lord]. This of course would be a different time for everyone. He says we would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord. He doesn't give any other option. He doesn't say we would rather rot in the grave. He doesn't say we would rather be asleep for 2000 years. You are the one writing into this, not me, when you say, 'You will be sleeping and unaware of time." Paul doesn't say that here. You are the one saying, 'dead, dead, dead," Not Paul and certainly not Jesus.
10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
---John 10:10
"abundantly"
G4053
περισσός
perissos
per-is-sos'
From G4012 (in the sense of beyond); superabundant (in quantity) or superior (in quality); by implication excessive; adverb (with G1537) violently; neuter (as noun) preeminence: - exceeding abundantly above, more abundantly, advantage, exceedingly, very highly, beyond measure, more, superfluous, vehement [-ly].
Jesus has come to give us superabundant life. Guess he missed the mark on that one as we rot in the grave,? But you can believe whatever you want. You can be on the dead dead dead side and I'll be on the superabundant life side.
I see 2 Cor 5 as describing each individual's death with an immediate [as in no time lapse] escort into the presence of the Lord. And, a different time, [moment of death], for everyone.
Whereas, I see the actual resurrection as happening at the same time for everyone, at the 7th trumpet, at the return of Christ, at the end of the age, followed by us ruling and reigning with Christ on earth, not in heaven.
So I'm putting these two passages together, which happen, I think, at a different time than 2 Cor 5.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
--1 Cor 15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
--1 Thess 4
Notice these two events are happening at the same time for everyone. There are trumpets [the 7th] involved. and In one we see the return of Christ and a supernatural meeting him in the air. There's no trumpets and no Christ returning to earth in 2 Cor 5. In 2 Cor 5 there's no talk about earth at all, just a place for us in heaven with the Lord and an aionios body.
I think it can get confusing because the Bible often uses the word sleep for death. And, it uses the word dead for physically dead. I think these last two passages from 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4 are both describing the same event, and it's different from what Paul is talking about in 2 Cor 5.
For someone who has hardly stepped foot in a church in my adult life, I sure do get accused a lot of being a propagandist for the church. In fact, I am an empirical learner and will only tend to speak of what I know from first hand experience, and I always stay grounded in the Bible as best I can. But, if you ever want to come over to my superabundant life side, you are certainly welcome. If I can get one other person to join me, maybe I'll start a club.
:bigGrin:
Molly what then is the resurrection for if everyone who dies goes straight to heaven? Did David go straight to heaven?
Acts 2
29 "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that our ancestor David died and was buried and that his tomb is here to this day. 30 David was a prophet and knew that God had promised with an oath that he would place one of David's descendants on his throne. 31 David knew that the Messiah would come back to life, and he spoke about that before it ever happened. He said that the Messiah wouldn't be left in the grave and that his body wouldn't decay.
Did David precede Yashua into the heavenlies? How about Abraham did he precede Yashua also? How could either one have received eternal life ahead of Yashua?
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 07, 2013, 04:38:33 AM
Molly what then is the resurrection for if everyone who dies goes straight to heaven? Did David go straight to heaven?
Acts 2
29 "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that our ancestor David died and was buried and that his tomb is here to this day. 30 David was a prophet and knew that God had promised with an oath that he would place one of David's descendants on his throne. 31 David knew that the Messiah would come back to life, and he spoke about that before it ever happened. He said that the Messiah wouldn't be left in the grave and that his body wouldn't decay.
Did David precede Yashua into the heavenlies? How about Abraham did he precede Yashua also? How could either one have received eternal life ahead of Yashua?
I don't recall saying any of those things.
What I said was the resurrection of the dead is happening at the same time for everyone [in Christ], at the end of the age, and it's not about heaven at all, it's about ruling and reigning on earth with Christ.
Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices shouting in heaven: "The world has now become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign forever and ever." Rev 11:15
Who are those voices shouting in heaven?
I think it's the dead in Christ, who are really alive in heaven when this happens.
5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.
--2 Cor 5
Prepared us for what? For eternal life!
This covenant that God has made with us, this promise, is sealed by the Holy Spirit.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
"tabernacle"
G4636
σκῆνος
skēnos
skay'-nos
From G4633; a hut or temporary residence, that is, (figuratively) the human body (as the abode of the spirit): - tabernacle.
We are living in the [Moses] tabernacle in the wilderness in this body. Even so, IT IS [CREATED TO BE] THE ABODE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's SPIRIT dwells in you?
--1 Cor 3:16
Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ because Christ is God.
Hebrews 3:6 But Christ is faithful as the Son over God's house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.
Hello Molly,
You asked to see something different, so here it is:
a. No one goes to "heaven" when they die. It simply isn't in the Bible:
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess018a.htm (http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess018a.htm)b. There is no "trinity". Both the word and the concept are no where to be found in the Bible:
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d120101.PDF (http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d120101.PDF)
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess041.htm (http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess041.htm)What we do need to understand are the first and second resurrections, that Jesus spoke plainly about:
http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm (http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm)I hope this helps.
Ken
(http://ernestlmartin.com/images/kogpng.png)
Quote from: Molly on May 31, 2013, 10:30:38 PM
*I split this off into its own thread, and modified the thread title in each post. As always, but especially in this topic, let's remember to post "As I understand", "In my opinion", "I believe", etc. What's my understanding of scripture today, God may show me something different and change my mind tomorrow. :)
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on May 31, 2013, 07:12:34 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 31, 2013, 05:17:48 PM
From the very first paragraph, "A loving God, it is claimed would not send anyone to eternal damnation Thus, those sent to hell "......If the writer can use the word "hell" the entire paper is questionable. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Perfect. If one small detail is wrong than it changes everything. How can someone who proclaims the trinity be like minded with anyone who excepts the death of the Christ. Its a small detail to the one proclaiming it but to me they worship another Jesus than I do. Making a pagan doctrine dating to the earliest religions into a "Christian" doctrine is just a clever ploy to dupe the masses.
whoa whoa whoa...I believe in the Trinity and I do not consider myself a pagan or the duped masses. :laugh:
But, this might be something we're not allowed to speak about. I can't remember.
4Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? who has gathered the wind in his fists? who has bound the waters in a garment? who has established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if you can tell? 5Every word of God is pure: he is a shield to them that put their trust in him. ...
--Prov 30
There are three in this verse. Let's let Jesus speak for himself:
16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
--Isa 48
Hi Ken, I'm happy to see we both agree that Jesus Christ is God, the Creator of heaven and earth. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on June 07, 2013, 10:29:30 PM
Hi Ken, I'm happy to see we both agree that Jesus Christ is God, the Creator of heaven and earth. :thumbsup:
Yahshua does share the title of God with his father who is greater. God is only a title not a name. They both have the title of God but that doesn't negate the fact that Yahweh is one God not 3 in 1. Each holds the title of God but Yahshua is subordinate to His Father Yahweh. Yahweh created everything through His Son. Yahshua only does and says what His Father tells Him.
3 As I briefly wrote earlier, God himself revealed his mysterious plan to me. 4 As you read what I have written, you will understand my insight into this plan regarding Christ. 5 God did not reveal it to previous generations, but now by his Spirit he has revealed it to his holy apostles and prophets.
6 And this is God's plan: Both Gentiles and Jews who believe the Good News share equally in the riches inherited by God's children. Both are part of the same body, and both enjoy the promise of blessings because they belong to Christ Jesus. 7 By God's grace and mighty power, I have been given the privilege of serving him by spreading this Good News.
8 Though I am the least deserving of all God's people, he graciously gave me the privilege of telling the Gentiles about the endless treasures available to them in Christ. 9 I was chosen to explain to everyone this mysterious plan that God, the Creator of all things, had kept secret from the beginning.
10 God's purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Because of Christ and our faith in him, we can now come boldly and confidently into God's presence. 13 So please don't lose heart because of my trials here. I am suffering for you, so you should feel honored.
--Eph 3
14 When I think of all this, I fall to my knees and pray to the Father, 15 the Creator of everything in heaven and on earth. 16 I pray that from his glorious, unlimited resources he will empower you with inner strength through his Spirit. 17 Then Christ will make his home in your hearts as you trust in him. Your roots will grow down into God's love and keep you strong. 18 And may you have the power to understand, as all God's people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love is. 19 May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.
20 Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think. 21 Glory to him in the church and in Christ Jesus through all generations forever and ever! Amen.
--Eph 3
20 Now to Him Who, by (in consequence of) the [action of His] power that is at work within us, is able to [carry out His purpose and] do superabundantly, far over and above all that we [dare] ask or think [infinitely beyond our highest prayers, desires, thoughts, hopes, or dreams]—
21 To Him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations forever and ever. Amen.
--Eph 3
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 08, 2013, 12:46:27 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 07, 2013, 10:29:30 PM
Hi Ken, I'm happy to see we both agree that Jesus Christ is God, the Creator of heaven and earth. :thumbsup:
Yahshua does share the title of God with his father who is greater. God is only a title not a name. They both have the title of God but that doesn't negate the fact that Yahweh is one God not 3 in 1. Each holds the title of God but Yahshua is subordinate to His Father Yahweh. Yahweh created everything through His Son. Yahshua only does and says what His Father tells Him.
Amen :dsunny:
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 08, 2013, 12:46:27 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 07, 2013, 10:29:30 PM
Hi Ken, I'm happy to see we both agree that Jesus Christ is God, the Creator of heaven and earth. :thumbsup:
Yahshua does share the title of God with his father who is greater. God is only a title not a name. They both have the title of God but that doesn't negate the fact that Yahweh is one God not 3 in 1. Each holds the title of God but Yahshua is subordinate to His Father Yahweh. Yahweh created everything through His Son. Yahshua only does and says what His Father tells Him.
Because he made himself subordinate. For you, I might add.
"Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:] Who,
although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained, But stripped Himself [
of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!" Phil 2 The Amplified Bible
"Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God]"...
Thank you indeed, that's so refreshing.
If I may be permitted to say so, I view God as the Almighty Spirit, Christ as the Soul of that Spirit Who through His own Self became Man on this Earth two thousand years ago.
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 06, 2013, 03:13:22 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 05, 2013, 09:32:28 PM
QuotePerhaps....as I read it He said, before Abraham was, I am". He did not say, "I am YHWH"-
well, in that passage, yes, he is saying he is YHWH. I AM is the memorial name for God. I AM is YAH.
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
--Ex 3
"Tell the children of Israel, YAH has sent me unto you."
The priests knew he was claiming to be God. They knew he was claiming to the the YHWH of the Old Testament. That's why they killed him for blasphemy. The Rider on the Clouds in the Old Testament is God, he is YHWH.
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.
67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,
68 Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?
Mat 26
If Jesus isn't God, who cares if he died?
If Jesus is God, then you are stuck with the trinity. And, you don't want to be there, I guess, stuck with the trinity, so the next best thing is to say Jesus isn't God. I can finally see where everyone is going with this.
Ex 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." He said further, "Thus you shall say to the Israelites, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
the LXX translates I AM WHO I AM as eimi ho eimi
1 Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.
also eimi(1510) ho(3588) eimi(1510)
Is Paul also claiming to be God?
been busy missed a lot. RHM, I have no problem with that interpretaion. I disagree with teaching it as foundational because Jesus is the "radiance of the Fathers glory and exact representation of His nature" (Heb 1), so for me, He is making a statement about His nature and His pre-existence(or perhaps transcendant existence above and outside of time) . IMO He is YHWH by calling, choosing, creation, the only begotten god, but not YHWH the Father God Almighty, whom He called "My God and your God" in Revelation. Understand- I am NOT teaching that as foundational, it is my view. IMO to teach that Jesus made Himself YHWH when He said, "Before Abraham was I AM, is an over-extension, and contradicts 1 Corinthians 15 and Colossians one and two where we see the Father MADE Jesus a lot of things, because He was the Son. YHWH cannot be made the fulness of God by Himself, at least to me, that makes the word of God trite and silly and untrustworthy. He either was, intrinsically YHWH, or, as Jesus said, "All authority in heaven and earth is given Me by My Father", as Paul says, "For so it pleased the Father TO MAKE all the fulness dwell in Him". Sometimes we teach things as with authority when they ought to be taught as
interpretations- and this is my interpretation of these verses and it is a reasonable and worthy perspective. We cannot just jettison such verses because they disagree with our interpretations(not saying you personally are doing that).
So,IMO Jesus is the I AM by virtue of being the being the ONLY BEGOTTEN and by virtue of ANOINTED ONE(Messiah/Christ). With what was He anointed? The fulness of God. By Whom was He anointed? By YHWH, His God and our God, who Jesus called "the One True God".
The Trinity was brought to us in 500 bc by the same people who gave us eternal torment in hellfire and the infallibility of the pope and the hierarchal authority of priests. Doesnt that give anyone pause? It does me. That very thing is what began my study of the doctrine of eternal judgment (Heb 6) that led me to UR.
At the very least, the "Trinity" is certainly not essential, because it didnt exist in the terminology of the apostles. Most people dont realize that if you don't teach a fully co-equal, co-eternal- co-substantial Trinity- you r not teaching the Trinity and are a heretic in VIRTUALLY EVERY INSTITUTIONAL Protestant or Catholic CHURCH. If you think the Father is greater than Jesus- YOU CANNOT BE ORDAIED IN ANY OF THOSE CHURCHeS.
Thats enough to convince me something is wrong with it all by itself, but thats just me and the way I look at things. I believe you can see the merit of a thing in its beginnings.
:dsunny: :HeartThrob:
The Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus is god with a small 'g'--a lessor god than God the Father.
The Muslims believe Jesus is a great man and a prophet.
Is that what we are?
Is that what we believe?
Or do we believe he is our great God and Savior Jesus Christ Titus 2:13 ?
Which one is it? Stand up and be counted before the assembly.
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
--Mat 10:33
Quote from: Molly on June 08, 2013, 06:50:55 PM
Or do we believe he is our great God and Savior Jesus Christ Titus 2:13 ?
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
--Mat 10:33
I believe and confess that He is God, the Son of Father God - sharing the same name with His Father, Yahweh - Savior.
Please may I put it this way:
The first Divine aspect revealed was God the Father, the Ruler, the One Who could be found through attrition.
The second Divine aspect revealed was God the Son, the Saviour, the Redeemer, the Sacrificer, the Divine Lover who could be found through contrition.
The third Divine aspect revealed was the Holy Spirit which even now works powerfully on humankind - have no doubt in that.
In this context, the Saviour Christ was - and is - the Lord God Jehovah of old.
I can say that God is outside of time .
He is also inside of time.
He controls time.
But my pea brain cannot describe accurately the absence of time.
I know what one is and I know what three is.
God knows who he is.
He does not care that my pea brain does not understand that one third with him
could mean one, or that two thirds equal one. Does one equal three ?
The trinity is not a straight forward math .
The very nature of God is not completely understandable by mortals.
To believe in God you must first believe he IS.
To excommunicate someone who does not understand that ONE equals THREE.
Is absolutely ridicules .
But as far as God is concerned ONE equals whatever God says it equals.
God was way before time started .
Quote from: lastpost on June 08, 2013, 10:33:49 PM
Please may I put it this way:
The first Divine aspect revealed was God the Father, the Ruler, the One Who could be found through attrition.
The second Divine aspect revealed was God the Son, the Saviour, the Redeemer, the Sacrificer, the Divine Lover who could be found through contrition.
The third Divine aspect revealed was the Holy Spirit which even now works powerfully on humankind - have no doubt in that.
In this context, the Saviour Christ was - and is - the Lord God Jehovah of old.
I think all this commentary and interpretation is fiine. As long as people dont go around teaching the Trinity as essential to membership in the body of Christ, I really dont care how people "explain" the mystery of Deity in earthly terms- we all have our views. I happen to think the Trinity is a Catholic idol. I do believe Jesus is God. The only begotten God, begotten in the heart of His Father before the foundation of the world- but I am not one hundred percent sure of that. Jesus may be co-eternal with the Father, that idea doesnt bother me at all. I am 100 percent sure Jesus is not co-equal to the Fatther because He said so, and so does Paul- but I don't care if anyone sees it like I see it- and I would never be so presumtuos as to tell anyone my view is "the" view- because t is a mystery. I prefer to discuss it by sharing all the scripures on the subject in a contextual, topical study in friendly fashion. When people start getting all religious and holy about the word "Trinity"- which has no basis in the scripture- I just dont care. Its religious reflexes at work.
Explain how you belive in the Trinity to me without using the word Trintiy as if it justifies itself and stands alone somehow and I will be just as happy as a clam in the mud :o)
We judge with human rationality and experience. We have no ability to assess Divinity which is beyond that rationality and experience. GOD is GOD - a small sacred word that describes a sacred Something so big that there will always be a part unknown even as knowledge of Divinity increases throughout the ages.
When man left Perfection then God went with him in the form of His Christ.
Perfection must of Himself remain Perfection, yet God's Christ does enter imperfection as His Anointed Agent.
And when again He made Himself lower than the angels as the Son of Man, this was but another form taken upon Himself by His Christ and through His Christ.
The Christ seeks down in the lowest depths of the valleys for the lost sheep, it is His Nature begotten of Almighty God.
To me this spells Divine Love. This is how I know Him. He has reached my cold and rotten heart through even my miserable and faulty understanding of His ways, and has ignited it with an everlasting flame that dances here and there seeking ever to follow my Saviour where He wills. And He has given me eternity to do this - pray tell, is there anything else that I should desire to do for eternity but the Will of He Who is Love?
What is it to me if He brings this to others who are not of this fold? Indeed, what is it to anyone? Should man tell God how to give lavish gifts?
IMO, Man did not leave perfection. According to Paul, in Romans 8- the creation did not become subject to futility of its own volition but was subjectetd to futility in hope- not hope like "I hope this happens"- but the sure hope that enters within the veil because it is the long distance vision of God predetermined and assured as fact. It was the plan of God and the reason for creation in His mind before He created anything. We call it hope in the time between the promise and the fulfillment, and the promise was made before the world or man or anything else was created- Christ crucified, the Logos of God, God revealed to man in His unique Son the beloved of the Father, the express image of the invisible God.
Man disobeyed the laws of God and so became imperfect - thus no longer able to reside in Perfection. So, true, man did not choose to leave Perfection - yet by his choice he was no longer able to exist in Perfection.
Thats one way of looking at it. But IMO the plan was set before the event. Was God reacting? Or was He executing Hs plan. I find it hard to believe that God was taken by surpise :o). The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. The world was created with the Fall and the Restoration of All Things already written in the SEED- the seed was the LOGOS. All things were created through the Logos and all things are being gathered into one in Christ an administration suitable to the completion of times- The aions and the kosmos were all laid ourt like a map before the creation, INCLUDING THE FALL. It says so in Acts 17 and a few other places.
IMO The fall was the means of teaching His creation how to be children of God, sons of the most high- Jesus our firstborn older brother, leading us all into glory.
Quote from: Molly on June 08, 2013, 06:50:55 PM
The Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus is god with a small 'g'--a lessor god than God the Father.
The Muslims believe Jesus is a great man and a prophet.
Is that what we are?
Is that what we believe?
Or do we believe he is our great God and Savior Jesus Christ Titus 2:13 ?
Which one is it? Stand up and be counted before the assembly.
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
--Mat 10:33
Religious rallying points are meaningless. Are we talking about Jesus being God? Or are we talking about the "Trinity"? If you think they are the same thing you
are not very well informed. If you are asserting that someone must believe in the Trinity or they are denying Jesus before the Father you are being very presumptuos - because believing in the Trintiy - or believing that Jesus is co-equal to the Father are not that kind of issue- that's just religious grandstanding IMO.
Really, I would rather just discuss the theology of it from the scriptures wthout all that nonsense.
I confess and believe that anyone who confesses with their mouth Jesus Christ as Lord and believes in their heart that God raised Him from the dead shall be healed by the blood of the LAmb and reconciled to God and become a child of God fully embraced and entitled to all the benefits of membership in the Body of Christ.
Dear eaglesway, thank you for your considered points. I think that we are in agreement that we do not know the whole Story as we do not have that ability to comprehend or even know it.
I personally believe that God was executing His Plan, yes. He set into being laws that would redeem His children one way or another away back in the beginning, through His Christ.
However, I also believe that not everyone was so wilful as another. I do not believe that I have fallen because someone else fell (although influence is something to be wary of). I believe that I fell because of my own doing. It was me who disobeyed God when He made me in His Image as Spirit and indeed this was before the foundation of this material world. That's what I believe.
Quote from: lastpost on June 09, 2013, 12:16:25 AM
We judge with human rationality and experience. We have no ability to assess Divinity which is beyond that rationality and experience. GOD is GOD - a small sacred word that describes a sacred Something so big that there will always be a part unknown even as knowledge of Divinity increases throughout the ages.
When man left Perfection then God went with him in the form of His Christ.
Perfection must of Himself remain Perfection, yet God's Christ does enter imperfection as His Anointed Agent.
And when again He made Himself lower than the angels as the Son of Man, this was but another form taken upon Himself by His Christ and through His Christ.
The Christ seeks down in the lowest depths of the valleys for the lost sheep, it is His Nature begotten of Almighty God.
To me this spells Divine Love. This is how I know Him. He has reached my cold and rotten heart through even my miserable and faulty understanding of His ways, and has ignited it with an everlasting flame that dances here and there seeking ever to follow my Saviour where He wills. And He has given me eternity to do this - pray tell, is there anything else that I should desire to do for eternity but the Will of He Who is Love?
What is it to me if He brings this to others who are not of this fold? Indeed, what is it to anyone? Should man tell God how to give lavish gifts?
QuotePlease may I put it this way:
The first Divine aspect revealed was God the Father, the Ruler, the One Who could be found through attrition.
The second Divine aspect revealed was God the Son, the Saviour, the Redeemer, the Sacrificer, the Divine Lover who could be found through contrition.
The third Divine aspect revealed was the Holy Spirit which even now works powerfully on humankind - have no doubt in that.
In this context, the Saviour Christ was - and is - the Lord God Jehovah of old.
Beautiful! Do I know you by another name? lol PM me if I do.
You put it beautifully. God showing us himself through successive revelations.
We are in the age of God, the Holy Spirit now. And, that is where we will be until the return of Jesus.
Some call the book of Acts, 'the gospel of the Holy Spirit.'
The Holy Spirit, this third part of the revealed God, searches the deep things of God and shows them to us. It takes an intellect to search something and show it to another. And, these are mysteries hidden by God from the ages and generations, and now made known to his saints through the Holy Spirit.
Each move of God through the ages brings us closer to Him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
--1 Cor 2
GOD'S WORD Translation (GW)
John 12
49 I have not spoken on my own. Instead, the Father who sent me told me what I should say and how I should say it. 50 I know that what he commands is eternal life. Whatever I say is what the Father told me to say."
This verse does not in the slightest say anything about the trinity theory. In fact this verse says the exact opposite and flies in the face of what the trinitarians believe
How is it the opposite? Would you rather have him say, I don't care what my Father says, I'm talking for myself here?
Three in one, three in one, three in one...
Quote from: Molly on June 09, 2013, 05:13:53 AM
How is it the opposite? Would you rather have him say, I don't care what my Father says, I'm talking for myself here?
Three in one, three in one, three in one...
By Gods wisdom and design
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the
spirit of wisdom and revelation
in the knowledge of him 1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but]
one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and
one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are]
all things, and we by him.
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is]
one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Mat 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and,
lo, I am with you alway, [even]
unto the end of the world. Amen.
15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
--Eph 1
That has to be read very fast lol
Then read it again about ten more times.
22 God has put all things under the authority of Christ and has made him head over all things for the benefit of the church. 23 And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself.
--Eph 1
He's doing all this for us!
It seems like maybe we're not all speaking the same language in this discussion.
How does John 12:49 actually prove anything about the Trinity or non-Trinity beliefs? I just see it saying Jesus and His Father worked together (as One - no disagreements, perfect harmony), and Jesus did His Father's will - as a "good Son" would.
So IMO, it boils down to 3 things with the Trinity discussion;
1) does one believe Jesus is God/Divine/the same Substance as His Father, existing from before creation - or not (i.e., someone who came into existence later, and God just especially blessed and called/made him his son)
2) the Holy Spirit is a "co-equal" Person in the Trinity, or not (i.e., still God's Spirit, the Holy or Pure Spirit, but more so the breath of God, God's power which He uses to do His will, the "active" part that emanates from Him)
3) or the "Oneness Pentecostal/Apostolic" view, i.e., Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are all LITERALLY one, that just represents Himself as different aspects depending on the situation (sometimes playing the role of Father, sometimes the role of Son, sometimes the role of Holy Spirit, but never any actual, real separate aspects/Entities).
:HeartThrob: its beautiful Molly
the testimony of Jesus Christ IS the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY
That is why Paul wanted all the church being the Lord Jesus Christ Body to prophesy
not only for the edfication of the church , but would all have the same testimony of Jesus Christ in them
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
to prophesy is to have the Wisdom and revelation of the knowldge of HIM ! I become so excited the day the Lord showed me that in plain sight a treasure , i missed reading it before , just as you are now , I love His Living Word !!! it breathes new Life into us His Body !!
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Cr 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Cr 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men [to] edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Cr 14:4 He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. :HeartThrob:
Yes! rosered. He's allowing us to watch the creation process.
I just am stunned by it and in awe--ALL THE TIME.
Quote from: jabcat on June 09, 2013, 06:32:37 AM
It seems like maybe we're not all speaking the same language in this discussion.
How does John 12:49 actually prove anything about the Trinity or non-Trinity beliefs? I just see it saying Jesus and His Father worked together (as One - no disagreements, perfect harmony), and Jesus did His Father's will - as a "good Son" would.
So IMO, it boils down to 3 things with the Trinity discussion;
1) does one believe Jesus is God/Divine/the same Substance as His Father, existing from before creation - or not (i.e., someone who came into existence later, and God just especially blessed and called/made him his son)
2) the Holy Spirit is a "co-equal" Person in the Trinity, or not (i.e., still God's Spirit, the Holy or Pure Spirit, but more so the breath of God, God's power which He uses to do His will, the "active" part that emanates from Him)
3) or the "Oneness Pentecostal/Apostolic" view, i.e., Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are all LITERALLY one, that just represents Himself as different aspects depending on the situation (sometimes playing the role of Father, sometimes the role of Son, sometimes the role of Holy Spirit, but never any actual, real separate aspects/Entities).
Hi Bro J ,
I have already stated what faith I believe several pages ago :laughing7:
and i can change under new revelation , as we all ,being able to grow in truth and grace as God is willing
but I believe the confusion comes just as it did with the Jews with Christ being Davids son
And when Jesus saw that
he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him [any question].
Mar 12:35 ¶ And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?
Who is the Lord of David ? and who is the Lord that spoke to Him by the Holy spirit saying it is his son also ? Jesus Christ was and is and will always be Lord , but He is in the High positon and authority of being not only the LORD of the LIVING BUT LORD OF THE DEAD
GOD IS ONLY THE GOD OF THE LIVING as Jesus states plainly , Jesus is gahering into Himself and making alive to His Father presented as was told long ago in prophecy the same SPIRIT of Prophecy this testimony that is truth
I hope you can see this as well , its pretty amazing and I am not able to explain like I would love to be able , God knows
Mar 12:36 For
David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Mar 12:37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he [then] his son? And the common people heard him gladly.
Quote from: Molly on June 09, 2013, 06:49:17 AM
Yes! rosered. He's allowing us to watch the creation process.
I just am stunned by it and in awe--ALL THE TIME.
me too sweetie , its my joy unspeakable and full of glory for HIM !!! Bless Him for blesing us all , He sure does deserve honor and blessing and thankfulness from us all :HeartThrob:
not you, but in general, it seems the thread can use some focus. sometimes it seems like we're "ships passing each other in the night". just my little effort on focus. :Book: It may not be very helpful though. :duck:
Quote from: rosered on June 09, 2013, 06:53:58 AM
Quote from: jabcat on June 09, 2013, 06:32:37 AM
It seems like maybe we're not all speaking the same language in this discussion.
How does John 12:49 actually prove anything about the Trinity or non-Trinity beliefs? I just see it saying Jesus and His Father worked together (as One - no disagreements, perfect harmony), and Jesus did His Father's will - as a "good Son" would.
So IMO, it boils down to 3 things with the Trinity discussion;
1) does one believe Jesus is God/Divine/the same Substance as His Father, existing from before creation - or not (i.e., someone who came into existence later, and God just especially blessed and called/made him his son)
2) the Holy Spirit is a "co-equal" Person in the Trinity, or not (i.e., still God's Spirit, the Holy or Pure Spirit, but more so the breath of God, God's power which He uses to do His will, the "active" part that emanates from Him)
3) or the "Oneness Pentecostal/Apostolic" view, i.e., Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are all LITERALLY one, that just represents Himself as different aspects depending on the situation (sometimes playing the role of Father, sometimes the role of Son, sometimes the role of Holy Spirit, but never any actual, real separate aspects/Entities).
Hi Bro J ,
I have already stated what faith I believe several pages ago :laughing7:
and i can change under new revelation , as we all ,being able to grow in truth and grace as God is willing
but I believe the confusion comes just as it did with the Jews with Christ being Davids son
And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him [any question].
Mar 12:35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?
Who is the Lord of David ? and who is the Lord that spoke to Him by the Holy spirit saying it is his son also ? Jesus Christ was and is and will always be Lord , but He is in the High positon and authority of being not only the LORD of the LIVING BUT LORD OF THE DEAD
GOD IS ONLY THE GOD OF THE LIVING as Jesus states plainly , Jesus is gahering into Himself and making alive to His Father presented as was told long ago in prophecy the same SPIRIT of Prophecy this testimony that is truth
I hope you can see this as well , its pretty amazing and I am not able to explain like I would love to be able , God knows
Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Mar 12:37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he [then] his son? And the common people heard him gladly.
Yes, he's making everything alive! He's making A NEW CREATION! And, he's allowing us to watch him doing it.
And the one sitting on the throne said, "Look, I am making everything new!"
--Rev 21:5
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. Rom 8:11
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
I do not believe that God, Christ and the Holy Ghost are "3 in 1" and I also don't think it's essential to our relationship with God. I know that Christ said that He and the Father are one, but that can be interpreted in so many ways . Also, not much is said about the Holy Ghost to convince me that they form a Trinity.
Quote from: Eduard on June 09, 2013, 08:03:39 AM
I do not believe that God, Christ and the Holy Ghost are "3 in 1" and I also don't think it's essential to our relationship with God. I know that Christ said that He and the Father are one, but that can be interpreted in so many ways . Also, not much is said about the Holy Ghost to convince me that they form a Trinity.
I agree Eduard, after searching and seeking to find why most "Christians" believe in the trinity theory I still don't see the proof. Since the very first time someone tried to explain this fable to me I have searched for it and have not found it. What I did find is that a bunch of Catholic bishops along with Constantine (pagan) corroborated to explain something that they clearly didn't understand. This is what the Word calls traditions of men and a fable. The trinity theory is an unproven concept.
Concept:
1: something conceived in the mind : thought, notion
2: an abstract or generic idea generalized from particular instances
Considering the word trinity is no where to be found it is an obvious concept conceived in the minds of pagans who have yet to discover the One not the 3 in 1.
Have you searched and found the Holy Spirit yet?
Because the only thing separating us from pagans is the Holy Spirit, the third person of the trinity.
All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, 'The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.'
--John 16:15
Quote from: jabcat on June 09, 2013, 06:57:51 AM
not you, but in general, it seems the thread can use some focus. sometimes it seems like we're "ships passing each other in the night". just my little effort on focus. :Book: It may not be very helpful though. :duck:
Focus would be nice. There have been many verses proving that there is a Holy Spirit, which I believe everyone will agree there is a Holy Spirit. But all the "trinity believers" have not given one verse of scripture to show that there are 3 "persons" in 1. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 09, 2013, 04:43:16 PM
Quote from: jabcat on June 09, 2013, 06:57:51 AM
not you, but in general, it seems the thread can use some focus. sometimes it seems like we're "ships passing each other in the night". just my little effort on focus. :Book: It may not be very helpful though. :duck:
Focus would be nice. There have been many verses proving that there is a Holy Spirit, which I believe everyone will agree there is a Holy Spirit. But all the "trinity believers" have not given one verse of scripture to show that there are 3 "persons" in 1. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
I just gave you one. Maybe you'd like to read it again.
All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, 'The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.'--John 16:15
All three are working together for your benefit.
And, all three are God, which I can also prove with scripture.
Or maybe you could explain to ME how Jesus got control over God's Spirit.
Do you think you could get control over MY spirit? I don't think so.
IMO, You have offered no such information.
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God;
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Oracles; G3051 an utterance (of God)
It's just like the lucifer theory, no oracle of God from the beginning about either theory. Should either have any substance at all, I believe there would have been some mention in the beginning. Just like ET punishment, no mention of that type of punishment as the penalty for sin. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
The trinity is theory.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 09, 2013, 05:13:23 PM
IMO, You have offered no such information.
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God;
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Oracles; G3051 an utterance (of God)
It's just like the lucifer theory, no oracle of God from the beginning about either theory. Should either have any substance at all, I believe there would have been some mention in the beginning. Just like ET punishment, no mention of that type of punishment as the penalty for sin. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
The trinity is theory.
Just answer my one simple question, Micah.
How did Jesus gain control of God's Spirit?
Quote from: Molly on June 09, 2013, 05:37:49 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 09, 2013, 05:13:23 PM
IMO, You have offered no such information.
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God;
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Oracles; G3051 an utterance (of God)
It's just like the lucifer theory, no oracle of God from the beginning about either theory. Should either have any substance at all, I believe there would have been some mention in the beginning. Just like ET punishment, no mention of that type of punishment as the penalty for sin. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
The trinity is theory.
Just answer my one simple question, Micah.
How did Jesus gain control of God's Spirit?
That's easy Yahwey (father) gave
it (HS) to Yashua (son).
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 09, 2013, 05:41:53 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 09, 2013, 05:37:49 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 09, 2013, 05:13:23 PM
IMO, You have offered no such information.
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God;
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Oracles; G3051 an utterance (of God)
It's just like the lucifer theory, no oracle of God from the beginning about either theory. Should either have any substance at all, I believe there would have been some mention in the beginning. Just like ET punishment, no mention of that type of punishment as the penalty for sin. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
The trinity is theory.
Just answer my one simple question, Micah.
How did Jesus gain control of God's Spirit?
That's easy Yahwey (father) gave it (HS) to Yashua (son).
Giving it to him and giving him control over it are two different things, aren't they?
Everything Jesus tells the Spirit to tell me, the Spirit of God obeys and tells me. [That is what that verse says].
Do Jesus and the Father share one Spirit, then? And, both have control over it?
We all share the same Spirit of Yahweh including His first born son Yahshua. Yahshua is our eldest brother.
Acts 2
32 "God brought this man Jesus back to life. We are all witnesses to that. 33 God used his power (HS) to give Jesus the highest position. Jesus has also received and has poured out the Holy Spirit as the Father had promised, and this is what you're seeing and hearing. 34 David didn't go up to heaven, but he said,
'The Lord said to my Lord,
"Take my highest position of power
35 until I put your enemies under your control."'
They are ONE. :dsunny:
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 09, 2013, 06:00:47 PM
We all share the same Spirit of Yahweh including His first born son Yahshua. Yahshua is our eldest brother.
Acts 2
32 "God brought this man Jesus back to life. We are all witnesses to that. 33 God used his power (HS) to give Jesus the highest position. Jesus has also received and has poured out the Holy Spirit as the Father had promised, and this is what you're seeing and hearing. 34 David didn't go up to heaven, but he said,
'The Lord said to my Lord,
"Take my highest position of power
35 until I put your enemies under your control."'
Jesus says, All things which the Father has are mine. Can we say that, too?
Do I have God's Spirit in the same way that Jesus does?
Is there any difference between me and my 'older brother' Jesus?
I am created. Was he?
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 09, 2013, 06:08:55 PM
They are ONE. :dsunny:
Yes, they are--the Father and the Son. They are also two. Two in one.
Quote from: Molly on June 09, 2013, 06:22:38 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 09, 2013, 06:08:55 PM
They are ONE. :dsunny:
Yes, they are--the Father and the Son. They are also two. Two in one.
Yes two in One Spirit not 3 in 1.
Here is the third. There are three persons in this passage.
"When the Counselor [ONE] comes, whom I [Jesus] [TWO] shall send to you from the Father [THREE], even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he [ONE] will bear witness to me [TWO]; and you also are witnesses, because you have been with me from the beginning" (Jn 15:26f).
There are two witnesses to Jesus in that passage: The Holy Spirit and the Apostles.
Every matter shall be determined by two or three witnesses. [2 Cor 13:1]
Ah, 'proceeding' (ekporeuomai) from the Father God. The Spirit is Holy, it proceeds from God. Is that which is given a description of parakletos (inferring a living intelligence) by Jesus and which comes from the Father God and which is Holy not Divine?
Personally, I liken the Holy Spirit to the Spiritual Christ (not the Man Jesus) but the redemptive, uplifting, comforting and healing Spirit acting on the authority of the Father God and empowered to carry on the work of Jesus Christ now that He has left us in human form so that the Divine Plan is brought to completion.
For me there is no separation but different manifestations of Divinity. If I was to count these mentioned aspects of Divinity then I would count three aspects of One God and yet I count only One God. However, I'm not counting. I have Christ and He is never leaving me. I know it matters to some but that's enough God for me, I couldn't take any more.
Joh 20:27 then he saith to Thomas, `Bring thy finger hither, and see my hands, and bring thy hand, and put it to my side, and become not unbelieving, but believing.'
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to him, `My Lord and my God;'
Quote from: Molly on June 09, 2013, 05:13:53 AM
How is it the opposite? Would you rather have him say, I don't care what my Father says, I'm talking for myself here?
Three in one, three in one, three in one...
Is that a Catholic mantra you are chanting there Molly? Because it sure isnt a scriptural response ;o)
Quote from: Molly on June 09, 2013, 06:11:38 AM
22 God has put all things under the authority of Christ and has made him head over all things for the benefit of the church. 23 And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself.
--Eph 1
He's doing all this for us!
For so it pleased the Father to make all the funess dwell in Him Colossians 1
And when the last enemy is subject then He will retutn all things to the Father that God may be all in all 1 Cor 15
I want to acknowledge that a lot of 'semantics" are being argued as doctrine. I will maintain my view but I have no problem with people who see the Godhead as a trinity, I just see it differently. It is the washing of the blood of Jesus and the one SPirit who is in us all that makes us one, regardless of how we see the godhead.
Quote from: EWAnd when the last enemy is subject then He will retutn all things to the Father that God may be all in all
1 Cor 15
That's a few ages down the road. But, then what does Jesus do? Retire to the shore?
QuoteFor so it pleased the Father to make all the funess dwell in Him Colossians 1
Let's read what it really says:
Because you kind of make it sound like Jesus was just walking along the side of the road and he was hit by a bolt of lightening and given all the powers of God. I think it's important to figure out when the author is talking about Jesus as a man and Jesus before he came to earth as a human. And, I don't see that as semantics. I see that as understanding the script.
16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:
all things were created by him, and for him:17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
--Col 1
Try this: There is ONE GOD. Jesus Christ came OUT FROM God and is called the "Son OF God." The Holy Spirit comes OUT FROM God and is called the "spirit OF God." But God has bestowed on Jesus ALL THAT HE IS AND ALL THAT HE HAS, hence Jesus also has this SAME SPIRIT and therefore there is the "spirit OF Christ" which is the SAME spirit OF God. They BOTH possess the SAME SPIRIT. And as they possess the SAME SPIRIT, they are ONE!
Quote from: MicahTry this: There is ONE GOD. Jesus Christ came OUT FROM God and is called the "Son OF God." The Holy Spirit comes OUT FROM God and is called the "spirit OF God."
I like this.
But when the Comforter [ONE] is come, whom I [Jesus][TWO] will send unto you from the Father,[THREE] even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: Jn 15:26.
But--
The Holy Spirit is "sent" by the Father and Son, as he also "proceeds" from them. For this reason he is called "the Spirit of the Father" (e.g., Mt. 10:20; 1 Cor 2:11; also Jn 15:26), but also "the Spirit of the Son" (Gal 4:6), or "the Spirit of Jesus" Acts 16:7) since it is Jesus himself that sends him (cf. Jn 15:26).
In other words, as Deity, they share one Spirit.
And--
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
--John 1
Possibly the trinitarians are a bit confused because good ole KJV translates all of the sacred names to God. Yashua does share the title of God with His father but Yashua is not ever called Yahweh.The English word "God" is used by multiple religions as a noun or name to refer to different deities. This is why I read the Hebrew Roots bible. This also is not semantics.
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 10, 2013, 12:43:21 AM
Possibly the trinitarians are a bit confused because good ole KJV translates all of the sacred names to God. Yashua does share the title of God with His father but Yashua is not ever called Yahweh.The English word "God" is used by multiple religions as a noun or name to refer to different deities. This is why I read the Hebrew Roots bible. This also is not semantics.
I'm not sure what you are talking about. I can show you plenty of examples where Yahweh and Jesus sound like the same person and say the same thing about themselves. For instance, they both call themselves our Savior.
I've already showed you where Jesus calls himself YAH, and the Jews go to stone him. Did you notice how they kept trying to kill him for blasphemy? The word God is translated in the Hebrew as 'ĕlôhıym, which is plural.
Quote from: lastpost on June 09, 2013, 07:40:16 PM
Ah, 'proceeding' (ekporeuomai) from the Father God. The Spirit is Holy, it proceeds from God. Is that which is given a description of parakletos (inferring a living intelligence) by Jesus and which comes from the Father God and which is Holy not Divine?
Personally, I liken the Holy Spirit to the Spiritual Christ (not the Man Jesus) but the redemptive, uplifting, comforting and healing Spirit acting on the authority of the Father God and empowered to carry on the work of Jesus Christ now that He has left us in human form so that the Divine Plan is brought to completion.
For me there is no separation but different manifestations of Divinity. If I was to count these mentioned aspects of Divinity then I would count three aspects of One God and yet I count only One God. However, I'm not counting. I have Christ and He is never leaving me. I know it matters to some but that's enough God for me, I couldn't take any more.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on June 10, 2013, 12:05:07 AM
Quote from: EWAnd when the last enemy is subject then He will retutn all things to the Father that God may be all in all
1 Cor 15
That's a few ages down the road. But, then what does Jesus do? Retire to the shore?
QuoteFor so it pleased the Father to make all the funess dwell in Him Colossians 1
Let's read what it really says:
Because you kind of make it sound like Jesus was just walking along the side of the road and he was hit by a bolt of lightening and given all the powers of God. I think it's important to figure out when the author is talking about Jesus as a man and Jesus before he came to earth as a human. And, I don't see that as semantics. I see that as understanding the script.
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
--Col 1
I didnt make it sound like anything :dontknow:.
I just quotd the verse. The verse says to me that the Father caused His fulnessto dwell in Christ. Neither the verse, nor me in my reason for quoting it- are concerned about whether it happenned through a lightning strike or anything like that..... it(and I in quoting it) just addresses the issue of source.
And again, I am presenting a number of verses in this discussion. They bear weight together and cannot be dismissed by anecdotes and personal perspectives. But I am just putting forth my own view here. I am not trying so much to turn over anyone elses view. I
am saying that agressive Trinitarians who teach their view as if it essential to salvation, knowing God, etc- are out of order and walking in presumption towards ther brethren who see it differently.
Gen 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."
Gen 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us..."
God is referred to in these sacred records as being plural, which is no coincidence surely. Man anthropomorphises God, and assumes that God must be like himself as he is now.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 10, 2013, 01:44:00 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 10, 2013, 12:05:07 AM
Quote from: EWAnd when the last enemy is subject then He will retutn all things to the Father that God may be all in all
1 Cor 15
That's a few ages down the road. But, then what does Jesus do? Retire to the shore?
QuoteFor so it pleased the Father to make all the funess dwell in Him Colossians 1
Let's read what it really says:
Because you kind of make it sound like Jesus was just walking along the side of the road and he was hit by a bolt of lightening and given all the powers of God. I think it's important to figure out when the author is talking about Jesus as a man and Jesus before he came to earth as a human. And, I don't see that as semantics. I see that as understanding the script.
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
--Col 1
I didnt make it sound like anything :dontknow:.
I just quotd the verse. The verse says to me that the Father caused His fulnessto dwell in Christ. Neither the verse, nor me in my reason for quoting it- are concerned about whether it happenned through a lightning strike or anything like that..... it(and I in quoting it) just addresses the issue of source.
And again, I am presenting a number of verses in this discussion. They bear weight together and cannot be dismissed by anecdotes and personal perspectives. But I am just putting forth my own view here. I am not trying so much to turn over anyone elses view. I am saying that agressive Trinitarians who teach their view as if it essential to salvation, knowing God, etc- are out of order and walking in presumption towards ther brethren who see it differently.
I don't know of any trinitarians who say you have to believe in the trinity to obtain salvation.
Do you know some? Certainly no one on this thread is saying that.
What I was trying to say is that, people use the verses that describe Jesus as a man, out of context, and when you do that, it makes it look like he was just a man given some special powers from God. That is totally the opposite of what happened. He was God who divested himself of His mighty power and humbled himself to become a man. And, he did this for a reason--which was the salvation of humanity. This shows us the love of Christ for us.
Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,--Phil 2:6-7
Quote from: Molly on June 09, 2013, 06:34:06 PM
Here is the third. There are three persons in this passage.
"When the Counselor [ONE] comes, whom I [Jesus] [TWO] shall send to you from the Father [THREE], even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he [ONE] will bear witness to me [TWO]; and you also are witnesses, because you have been with me from the beginning" (Jn 15:26f).
There are two witnesses to Jesus in that passage: The Holy Spirit and the Apostles.
Every matter shall be determined by two or three witnesses. [2 Cor 13:1]
Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called Wonderful,
Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 10, 2013, 05:52:31 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 09, 2013, 06:34:06 PM
Here is the third. There are three persons in this passage.
"When the Counselor [ONE] comes, whom I [Jesus] [TWO] shall send to you from the Father [THREE], even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he [ONE] will bear witness to me [TWO]; and you also are witnesses, because you have been with me from the beginning" (Jn 15:26f).
There are two witnesses to Jesus in that passage: The Holy Spirit and the Apostles.
Every matter shall be determined by two or three witnesses. [2 Cor 13:1]
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
AMEN! :banana: :banana: :banana:
I hope those banana's are because you now understand why there was never a trinity. Besides like the eternal punishment doctrine which is not found in the OT neither is a trinity doctrine.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given...that's ONE to me anyway. :dsunny:
Hmmmm. :Chinscratch:
Quote from: Molly on June 10, 2013, 02:03:09 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on June 10, 2013, 01:44:00 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 10, 2013, 12:05:07 AM
Quote from: EWAnd when the last enemy is subject then He will retutn all things to the Father that God may be all in all
1 Cor 15
That's a few ages down the road. But, then what does Jesus do? Retire to the shore?
QuoteFor so it pleased the Father to make all the funess dwell in Him Colossians 1
Let's read what it really says:
Because you kind of make it sound like Jesus was just walking along the side of the road and he was hit by a bolt of lightening and given all the powers of God. I think it's important to figure out when the author is talking about Jesus as a man and Jesus before he came to earth as a human. And, I don't see that as semantics. I see that as understanding the script.
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
--Col 1
I didnt make it sound like anything :dontknow:.
I just quotd the verse. The verse says to me that the Father caused His fulnessto dwell in Christ. Neither the verse, nor me in my reason for quoting it- are concerned about whether it happenned through a lightning strike or anything like that..... it(and I in quoting it) just addresses the issue of source.
And again, I am presenting a number of verses in this discussion. They bear weight together and cannot be dismissed by anecdotes and personal perspectives. But I am just putting forth my own view here. I am not trying so much to turn over anyone elses view. I am saying that agressive Trinitarians who teach their view as if it essential to salvation, knowing God, etc- are out of order and walking in presumption towards ther brethren who see it differently.
I don't know of any trinitarians who say you have to believe in the trinity to obtain salvation.
Do you know some? Certainly no one on this thread is saying that.
What I was trying to say is that, people use the verses that describe Jesus as a man, out of context, and when you do that, it makes it look like he was just a man given some special powers from God. That is totally the opposite of what happened. He was God who divested himself of His mighty power and humbled himself to become a man. And, he did this for a reason--which was the salvation of humanity. This shows us the love of Christ for us.
Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,
--Phil 2:6-7
In no place have I posted anything that defined Jesus as just a man to whom God gave special powers.
The fact that a person cannot imagine any paradigm in which Jesus could be the only begotten Son, and not be the Father at the same time- doesnt mean that such a paradigm cannot exist. Maybe it doesnt- but maybe it is the limit of your imagination or revelation that is the reason you can only define what others are saying in your own terms.
Colossians 1, the same scripture that declares that the Father made all the fulness dwell in the Anointed One, clearly says that Jesus is way beyond a man with special powers.
The Supremacy of the Son of God
15The Son is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn over all creation. 16For
in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities;
all things have been created through him and for him. 17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And
he is the head of the body, the church;
he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For
God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.Again, my point is not that I want to overturn anyone elses view. Trinitarian doctrine, however, is not early apostolic doctrine, it is post Greco/Roman and it is not essential in my opinion. I think it was you Molly, who posted earlier, in reply 240, about Muslims and Jehovah's Witnesses and coupled it with, "If anyman denies who I am I will deny him before my Father in heaven" as if anyone who doesnt buy nto the Trinity is like a Muslim or a JW? If I misunderstood you I apologise but I called that grandstanding before and I will again because the Trinitarian view has been underfire for 1500 hundred years from WITHIN the church and will continue to be so- because it was never the last word on the subject and BECAUSE IT WAS NEVER THE FIRST WORD ON THE SUBJECT.
I shun all such labels that were not included in the conversations of the prophets and apostles and I particularly reject the idea that we should be limited to discussing a subject as awesome and intriguing as the Deity and nature of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in those terms. Even moreso, I have no desire to say that a Trinitarian view is "wrong"- I don't like the term but I understand the view and consider it an acceptable if implausible(to me) view.
I just discuss it to keep the door open, even if i have to jam my foot in it once and awhile, because there should be NO FEAR in discussing it and NO SHAME in questioning it or proposing a different view if it can be supported by scripture.
I think we are all guilty at times of "arranging" the verses to say what believ is true, me as much as anyone I am sure- but there is always a different arrangement than mine and by looking at the word through someone elses "arrangement" or viewing a verse through "the other perspective" I have been delivered from some of my former religious icons, graven image pressed upon my mind by the theology of men with "jobs to save" :o)
Saints of God have been martyred for questioning it, along with those who questioned ET.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 10, 2013, 09:21:14 PM
I hope those banana's are because you now understand why there was never a trinity. Besides like the eternal punishment doctrine which is not found in the OT neither is a trinity doctrine.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given...that's ONE to me anyway. :dsunny:
Those bananas are for the one God who carries all the names and functions of God: Wonderful Counselor, Almighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.
Three in one is just a simplified way of recognizing the functions and persons of the one true God.
Jesus, whose name was called Immanuel, which means, "God with us."
:sigh: I give up
It may be safe to assume that even UR believers are split on this subject. I base my conclusion on the evidence presented here on both sides of this issue. I would still like to do a poll here on how many of us believe in the trinity theory and how many don't. Molly is the only one who has openly admitted and claimed the trinity theory publicly as far as I know. So come on all of you trinitarians don't be so ashamed just admit it.
That would be excellent. Aside from the fact the teaching is absent in the Bible OT and NT. :dontknow:
I believe Emmanuel means God is with us too :o)
"For God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself"
"For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of His cross"
Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
The word Christ means, the anointed one, the anointed, the anointing. It is an epithet for the Messiah.
In the Old Testament, the anointing served a purpose.
Anointing served as a dedication. Jacob anointed the stone, after his dream, dedicating the place as the house of God.
Anointing served as an appointment. Prophets, Priests, and Kings were anointed when they were appointed to their position.
Anointing served as a means to set apart [make holy]. The items in the Tabernacle were anointed, to set them apart for God.
We, too, are anointed by God, the Holy Spirit, when the Spirit of God comes upon us.
Dedicated, appointed as sons, and set apart, we are able to do all things through the anointing of the Holy Spirit, which strengthens us.
The idea of three in one doesnt really bother me at all. It is the co-equal, co-eternal part. I believe they are co-substantial. I am positive they are not co-equal. I am not sure whether or not they are co-eternal. I do not judge anyone for their view on it- but I will maintain my view on it and continue to study it because it is incredibly interesting to me :o)
Tertullian was the first to advance the theory of the Trinity and call it that. He is also known as the father of latin theology. His theory was considered heresy during his lifetime, it wasnt until the council at Nicea(the flower of abominations) that the Trinity became approved as "orthodox".
Tertullian rejoiced at the teaching of hell, writing that he would laugh at the torment of the wicked and take great joy in the agony of kings. I think he may well hav been a religious reprobate. At any rate, his writings on the joys of beholding human beings liquefying in flames is here on Tentmaker, quite a piece of work.
I don't hold anything against people long dead. I have never been hurt by God. Only an abundance of blessings have to come to me from him. So it's hard for me to empathize with people who have been hurt.
I look at Constantine and say, well, without him, Christianity would have never made it to me. It was on the ropes before he had his vision, and soon to be eradicated from the Roman empire.
Without Constantine, Christianity would have fallen into the dustbin of history as a Jewish cult.
So I owe Constantine a debt of gratitude, the way I see it, and his group at Nicea. Sometimes you can get some things wrong and get some things right at the same time. They got the tri-unity of God right, imo. It's all over the Bible.
Yeah, Constantine may not have been the most righteous of men, but he did accept Christianity.
In Deut 6:4, it says Hear O Israel the LORD our God is one LORD.
The word for one in the Hebrew is not the numerical number one.
It is the same word used in Gen 2 where it says the man and woman shall become one flesh.
Here is the Hebrew word.
"one"
H259
אחד
'echâd
ekh-awd'
A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Maybe that would help
The root word for echad H258 means to unify.
Good find Molly. Union, cooperation, working together, of the same mind, of the same Substance...the Father and Son were and are ALWAYS "on the same page"; one.
Quote from: jabcat on June 11, 2013, 09:24:50 AM
Good find Molly. Union, cooperation, working together...the Father and Son were and are ALWAYS "on the same page" = "one".
Don't forget God the Holy Spirit. :thumbsup:
That's my problem Molly, I don't think the Holy Spirit is one with God and Jesus, what evidence is there to support this diea?
Quote from: Eduard on June 11, 2013, 09:43:01 AM
That's my problem Molly, I don't think the Holy Spirit is one with God and Jesus, what evidence is there to support this diea?
We only have 31 pages in this thread, Eduard. Have patience. Give me some time. :LH:
PS if you see any links in my posts, don't click on them. My computer seems corrupted. I have to get this fixed.
QuoteI look at Constantine and say, well, without him, Christianity would have never made it to me
I look around the world and although I see very few people believing in Christ the way that I do, yet I am thankful for buildings with bells and steeples and crosses outside that "intrude" into the lives of people to remind them - or at least give them the opportunity to investigate - that their God came to Earth, the absence of which would be a detriment to mankind.
Quote from: lastpost on June 11, 2013, 09:49:34 AM
QuoteI look at Constantine and say, well, without him, Christianity would have never made it to me
I look around the world and although I see very few people believing in Christ the way that I do, yet I am thankful for buildings with bells and steeples and crosses outside that "intrude" into the lives of people to remind them - or at least give them the opportunity to investigate - that their God came to Earth, the absence of which would be a detriment to mankind.
That's exactly the way I feel, too.
Well, this thread is good discussion, but still there's no clear evidence that there is a Trinity.
Quote from: Molly on June 11, 2013, 09:26:31 AM
Quote from: jabcat on June 11, 2013, 09:24:50 AM
Good find Molly. Union, cooperation, working together...the Father and Son were and are ALWAYS "on the same page" = "one".
Don't forget God the Holy Spirit. :thumbsup:
Where in the Word of God do you find "God the Holy Spirit?" You have not shown where the HS is a person either.
We did some studies in the Old Testament where the word of the Lord [Jesus] came to people and talked with them, even put a hand on them so that they could both see and feel his presence.
It is the same with the Spirit of the Lord who also visits people in the Old Testament. Sometimes he comes as a spirit, sometimes as a loud voice, sometimes as a still small voice but he always comes with mighty power to achieve his purposes for God.
10 The Spirit of the Lord came on him,A)" so that he became Israel's judge and went to war. The Lord gave Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram into the hands of Othniel, who overpowered him. Judges 3
29 Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah" of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites.
6 The Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon him" so that he tore the lion apart with his bare hands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told neither his father nor his mother what he had done. Judges 14
It seems like you guys would be really interested in cultivating the Holy Spirit. He clearly imparts huge power on people to bring them to victory through supernatural means. Maybe you have to be a weak female to appreciate Him. Maybe you have to be at the end of yourself and your own abilities, that is, desperate, to consider Him. Sometimes being desperate has its advantages because only then you might be open to meeting the powerful Holy Spirit. But, if anyone has overwhelming battles to fight, the HS is the go to God.
But, as the Holy Spirit is spirit, if he wants to be seen by people he often appears to them in the Old Testament as an 'angel,' although he is not an angel. He is the mighty third person of the trinity. Let's take a look at what happens when he meets the coward, Gideon who is trying to thresh grain in a winepress because he is afraid he will be seen by his enemies and oppressors, the Midianites.
11 The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, "The Lord is with you, mighty warrior."
13 "Pardon me, my lord," Gideon replied, "but if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our ancestors told us about when they said, 'Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt?' But now the Lord has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian."
14 The Lord turned to him and said, "Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian's hand. Am I not sending you?"
15 "Pardon me, my lord," Gideon replied, "but how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family."
16 The Lord answered, "I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites, leaving none alive."
You all know how this story ends. If you don't, find out.
C'mon, guys. Are you going to let a girl have all this power to herself because you are too proud to say you're wrong, and admit the third person of the trinity is not only a Helper, but He is Rambo with wings?
I have not read on this thread anyone denying the Holy Spirit or it's power, IN the beginning God......
and the Spirit of God moved....., there the power and energy.
Eph 4:3 being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace;
Unity G1775 henotēs oneness, that is, (figuratively) unanimity: - unity
Peace G1515 eirēnē Probably from a primary verb εἴρω eirō (to join); peace (literally or figuratively); by implication prosperity: - one, peace, quietness, rest, + set at one again.
That's all true, but nowhere is it written that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit form a Trinity.
I think of the Spirit of God, not as a separate entity/personality, but as the Presence of God (with us as 'opposed' to God on the Throne in the heavens/where His 'headquarters' are now, until His headquarters move to Jerusalem)
And of Father and Son as so close, both in essence/family and in purpose, that Jesus promised the coming of the Spirit of God to indwell believers.. Yet it's also true the Son prayed to someone.. I disagree when people say the Father got off the throne and came to earth, as though Father and Son are only one.
Also Jesus prayed that believers would "be one as He and the Father are one", yet I'm assuming we are still all individuals, and not only one. And the indwelling spirit of God manifests as the "fruit of the Spirit" (love, joy, peace, etc) whereas natural man not indwelt, is prone to division, etc (forming parties/factions and all the rest)
:2c: :smile:
Quote from: Eduard on June 11, 2013, 03:27:28 PM
That's all true, but nowhere is it written that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit form a Trinity.
There are three of them and it says they are echad, One.
One thing that I find interesting is that Jesus spans the gap between the spiritual world and the physical world.
Quote from: marie glen on June 11, 2013, 04:21:57 PM
I think of the Spirit of God, not as a separate entity/personality, but as the Presence of God (with us as 'opposed' to God on the Throne in the heavens/where His 'headquarters' are now, until His headquarters move to Jerusalem)
And of Father and Son as so close, both in essence/family and in purpose, that Jesus promised the coming of the Spirit of God to indwell believers.. Yet it's also true the Son prayed to someone.. I disagree when people say the Father got off the throne and came to earth, as though Father and Son are only one.
Also Jesus prayed that believers would "be one as He and the Father are one", yet I'm assuming we are still all individuals, and not only one. And the indwelling spirit of God manifests as the "fruit of the Spirit" (love, joy, peace, etc) whereas natural man not indwelt, is prone to division, etc (forming parties/factions and all the rest)
:2c: :smile:
That's it! In our natural state, humans are divided, segregated, factioned....
In Jesus (and with the Spirit in us) we are united, which is the opposite of our natural tendencies.
We are already made in God's image to a degree, but in Jesus we are changed to be
more in God's image.
IMO, the full concept of the relationship of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to each other is probably impossible to conceive in the human mind. We can understand in part, but maybe we are not capable of fully understanding it. I really don't think God cares how you theorize and conceptualize the trinity or not-trinity.
He cares about how we are relating to other humans! After all, that, brothers and sisters, is the very basis on which we will be judged. Not by what you understood, or how viable your theories were. But by what you did for other people, how well you loved (verb) others! We all should spend
more time thinking about what we can do for other people's needs, and
less time debating theories and concepts.
:2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:
Quote from: JBBThat's it! In our natural state, humans are divided, segregated, factioned....
In Jesus (and with the Spirit in us) we are united, which is the opposite of our natural tendencies.
We are already made in God's image to a degree, but in Jesus we are changed to be more in God's image
Yes! He's making us more like......God.
:thumbsup:
But we have the mind of Christ. echad.
The way I understand what Jesus said about him and his Father being "ONE" is, he also said (John 17:21-23) "That they all may be ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US:
(Verse 22) And thed glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one , even as we are one.
(Verse 23)I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in ONE; and that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
What I get from these verses is, we are to become ONE with Christ and the Father just like Christ was ONE with the Father. Not that Christ and the Father are the same individual. Jesus also pointed out that he was SENT by the Father. So there had to be a Father apart from Christ for him to be sent by him. I do believe Christ came from God because Jesus said "I came from God" That is what made him the only begotten son of God. We didn't come from God we came from the earth.
CHB
Jesus also said "The Father is greater than I"
Quote from: Eduard on June 11, 2013, 05:45:06 PM
Jesus also said "The Father is greater than I"
Right!! and he also said in (John 17:13) And now come I to thee; (Verse 11) "I come to thee Holy Father". (Verse 5) "Father glorify thou me with thine own self
with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."John 16:28) I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again,
I leave the world, and go to the Father.It can't get any plainer than this. Jesus left his Father and came to earth and he returns to heaven where the Father has never left.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on June 11, 2013, 06:01:33 PM
Quote from: Eduard on June 11, 2013, 05:45:06 PM
Jesus also said "The Father is greater than I"
Right!! and he also said in (John 17:13) And now come I to thee; (Verse 11) "I come to thee Holy Father". (Verse 5) "Father glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."
John 16:28) I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
It can't get any plainer than this. Jesus left his Father and came to earth and he returns to heaven where the Father has never left.
CHB
Yes. and here's the clincher for me--When Jesus the man is glorified--so are we!!!!
Because we are in him.
He does all the work.
He is the Way.
Quote from: Molly on June 11, 2013, 09:53:23 AM
Quote from: lastpost on June 11, 2013, 09:49:34 AM
QuoteI look at Constantine and say, well, without him, Christianity would have never made it to me
I look around the world and although I see very few people believing in Christ the way that I do, yet I am thankful for buildings with bells and steeples and crosses outside that "intrude" into the lives of people to remind them - or at least give them the opportunity to investigate - that their God came to Earth, the absence of which would be a detriment to mankind.
That's exactly the way I feel, too.
Before anyone makes a saint of Constantine they ought to study history. Constantine approved the doctrine of Arius for quire awhile. Later he switched to the support of Anathasius....and Arius died under suspicious circumstances(poison probably). The history of the "church" that extends forward to the RCC is a history of debauchery, abuse of power, ex-communication and martyrdom for anyone who dared speak against infallibility of the Pope. Think about it. Constantine was the beast. From that time forward a series of "Holy Roman Emporers supported the Pope, who like the false prophet of revelation made the whole world bow down and worship the beast and his image(the RCC).
The Borgias, the Crusades, the slaughter of the Anabaptists.....Really, I dont care how someone views the godhead as long as Jesus is their Only Begotten Son, born f a virgin, lived a spotles life, died and was raised to the riht hand of the Father-
But Constantine as a preserver of Christianity? He instituted all the things Jesus says He "hates" in the 7 letters to the 7 churches- I mean we have to consider history and the scriptures at some point and not just spin fairy tales or regurgitate the propaganda of institutional churches .
Jesus has done all the work, and we are signed, sealed and delivered by the Holy Spirit.
Just rest rest rest in Him and enjoy the ride.
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
---Rom 6
I don't think that Molly meant Constantine was the "preserver of Christianity" at all. I think Molly was saying that he was a pawn in the scheme of things – it could have been better but it wasn't. It could have been worse but it wasn't. Today is today and the past is the past and forgiving the past is a necessary step to reconciliation as evil as it was. That is only possible by learning of Christ's unstoppable Love.
Thanks, Lastpost,
That's what I would have said if I could have put it that clearly. :laughing7:
Genesis 50:20
[Constantine] meant it for evil..., but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
Well, I agree he was a pawn, but IMO more like Satan is a pawn- used to obscure the truth by mixing it with lies. Again, IMO, No good thing came out of the Nicean convention, other than that the scriptures were fulfilled that in the last times deceivers would arise having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof.
Quotemore like Satan is a pawn- used to obscure the truth by mixing it with lies.
Dear eaglesway, I agree with you. Evil truly runs amok!
QuoteGenesis 50:20
"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."
My opinion is that God transforms what has been perverted back to the good it was before evil struck. It is not a "wiping out" but a transformation, and sometimes over millennia depending on what is struck and how deeply. God will be "all-in-all" (1 Cor.15:28) at the Grand Consummation, "one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in all" (Eph. 4:6), everything will be reconciled and He will be all things in all beings.
I believe the attention should be turned upwards as well as inwards and not so flatly. The Master stated that: "In My Father's home (oikia) are many dwelling or abiding places (mone)", and He further emphasised this by stating: "If it were not so I would have told you" (John 14:2). He therefore said essentially, listen carefully, there are many dwelling or abiding places in my Father's House, it's important to realise this.
I do not have the problems of "right doctrine" that I see and hear others becoming upset about and in my opinion, stunting much of what Christ wishes to be built up as far as reconciliation is concerned. The doctrine I have comes through the sweet Gatekeeper who is Christ my Lord: "I am the Door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be kept safe (sozo), and shall go in and out" (John 10:9) said He.
All will be made good again after the evil in man has struck. And strike it does. But man must play his part of reconciliation or he gives place to the enemy. For man to have reconciliation he too must abide in reconciliation even as he is asked to abide in the Reconciliator, to "abide" in Christ (John 15:4). The enemy has struck throughout time and strikes today so the reconciliatory spirit in each man and woman must be for all time, not just a moment of spirituality now and again.
Personally, I appreciate the
efforts made as to the teachings today found in Christendom although I
disagree with most of them fundamentally, but I wish them to be transformed not annihilated, the rubbish heaps gathered together in order to get back to the start again, right to where man has erred from the beginning. To go back to Christ and only Christ and to look at Him, learn from Him, see that the only words that have come from God in the flesh were those of Jesus Christ, see that the perfect life He lived was spotless and without error, feel what Divine sacrificial Love is like and then know this is how their God feels towards them and always without withdrawal, to feel that the only thing worth having is that Divine sacrifical Love. Then will be a Grand Consummation indeed.
Men must always have the spirit of reconciliation, they must learn to listen to Christ, to hear the simple teachings and believe them, the hard ones: "Turn the other cheek" if one is struck, he must learn to overcome the hardness in his heart, not in words but in literally allowing the sacrificial Love of Christ Jesus to envelop him, indeed, to live in Him, to be buried in Divine Love and in that burial comes the only life there is.
But after he had considered these things, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, don't be afraid to take Mary as your wife, because what has been conceived in her is by the Holy Spirit.
Mary gave birth to a Son and the angel of the Lord said the Holy Spirit was the Father.
Quote from: dajomaco on June 12, 2013, 12:00:51 AM
But after he had considered these things, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, don't be afraid to take Mary as your wife, because what has been conceived in her is by the Holy Spirit.
Mary gave birth to a Son and the angel of the Lord said the Holy Spirit was the Father.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and
shall be called the Son of the Highest: and
the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her,
The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,
and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:
therefore also
that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. :HeartThrob:
Very good...called the son of God, not the son of the Holy Spirit.
Quote from: rosered on June 12, 2013, 01:33:07 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on June 12, 2013, 12:00:51 AM
But after he had considered these things, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, don't be afraid to take Mary as your wife, because what has been conceived in her is by the Holy Spirit.
Mary gave birth to a Son and the angel of the Lord said the Holy Spirit was the Father.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her,
The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,
and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:
therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. :HeartThrob:
I'm just trying to use simple high school logic here.
The Holy Spirit is the father of Jesus.
Jesus is the son of the Highest [God.]
Therefore, the Holy Spirit is the Highest [God].
Jesus is also called the Son of God.
Therefore the Holy Spirit is God.
I'm sure there must be complicated explanations for this.
But I'm just a simple country girl.
Quote from: Molly on June 12, 2013, 04:03:42 AM
Quote from: rosered on June 12, 2013, 01:33:07 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on June 12, 2013, 12:00:51 AM
But after he had considered these things, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, don't be afraid to take Mary as your wife, because what has been conceived in her is by the Holy Spirit.
Mary gave birth to a Son and the angel of the Lord said the Holy Spirit was the Father.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her,
The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,
and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:
therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. :HeartThrob:
I'm just trying to use simple high school logic here.
The Holy Spirit is the father of Jesus.
Jesus is the son of the Highest [God.]
Therefore, the Holy Spirit is the Highest [God].
Jesus is also called the Son of God.
Therefore the Holy Spirit is God.
I'm sure there must be complicated explanations for this.
But I'm just a simple country girl.
Hi Molly , I really do not know How to describe the Holy Spirit , Holy is just the purest form of Love to me and Spirit is something that , its the very thing that LIFE is all life is spirit of some form when the spirit leaves any living thing it begins to decay and not exist any longer so the Holy Spirit to me with feeble attempts to describe , I dont think its male or female but the very LIFE how all forms exist and have their ''being '' God is Spirit LIFE ITSELF , but God to me is the male /female existance because that is how and why He created man / adam in His Image /likeness of the same nature
Gen 1:27 So God created
man in his [own] image,
in the image of God created he him;
male and female created he them. Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and
called their name Adam,
in the day when they were created.
I love the way its worded , lots to explore when you pick a word and look into other scriptures with the same word meaning or similar verses
like overshadowed , we know Jesus was overshadowed often this meaning is the very presence of the Highest God in a cloud usually [Witness ] declaring His Son [proof]to those in the world
Highest being possible in rank and power and authority totally
and everyone born again of the the Holy Spirit [ that loving life force of the same Family ] Jesus explains to Nicodemus , like the wind blows you hear its sound but never see it come or go just its blast and movement and effects , Just how the Spirit blows , the blasting force of Life , creating a life as a holy thing , being sons of God born from Jesus Christ [SEED /WORD of God
the Word =Jesus Christ and those born again of the same seed/ Word of God
and same Holy Spirit being an eternal life force , where Love is the Bond of perfection and completness , we cannot blaspheme against the Holy Spirit , because its the very LIVING BREATH OF GOD , without it one ceases to be anything ever
This was alot more than I intened to go into :dunno2:
but these things are the very things I think about when meditating on His Word , as do all of us
so I hope this makes more plain what is impossible to explain :HeartThrob:
if Jesus had intended the mysteries of the kingdom to be reduced to high school logic, He would not have spoken in parables things hidden from the foundation of the world. Paul would not have prayed that we receive the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God. We would not need the Spirit of God to reveal unto us the deep things of God. If God had made a box for Himself, a nice neat package we could tie up in a word, their would be no need for us seek, or dig, or to listen to one another for a glimpse of greater revelation of His divine nature.
Quote from: rosered on June 12, 2013, 05:24:35 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 12, 2013, 04:03:42 AM
Quote from: rosered on June 12, 2013, 01:33:07 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on June 12, 2013, 12:00:51 AM
But after he had considered these things, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, don't be afraid to take Mary as your wife, because what has been conceived in her is by the Holy Spirit.
Mary gave birth to a Son and the angel of the Lord said the Holy Spirit was the Father.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her,
The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,
and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:
therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. :HeartThrob:
I'm just trying to use simple high school logic here.
The Holy Spirit is the father of Jesus.
Jesus is the son of the Highest [God.]
Therefore, the Holy Spirit is the Highest [God].
Jesus is also called the Son of God.
Therefore the Holy Spirit is God.
I'm sure there must be complicated explanations for this.
But I'm just a simple country girl.
Hi Molly , I really do not know How to describe the Holy Spirit , Holy is just the purest form of Love to me and Spirit is something that , its the very thing that LIFE is all life is spirit of some form when the spirit leaves any living thing it begins to decay and not exist any longer so the Holy Spirit to me with feeble attempts to describe , I dont think its male or female but the very LIFE how all forms exist and have their "being " God is Spirit LIFE ITSELF , but God to me is the male /female existance because that is how and why He created man / adam in His Image /likeness of the same nature
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
I love the way its worded , lots to explore when you pick a word and look into other scriptures with the same word meaning or similar verses
like overshadowed , we know Jesus was overshadowed often this meaning is the very presence of the Highest God in a cloud usually [Witness ] declaring His Son [proof]to those in the world
Highest being possible in rank and power and authority totally
and everyone born again of the the Holy Spirit [ that loving life force of the same Family ] Jesus explains to Nicodemus , like the wind blows you hear its sound but never see it come or go just its blast and movement and effects , Just how the Spirit blows , the blasting force of Life , creating a life as a holy thing , being sons of God born from Jesus Christ [SEED /WORD of God
the Word =Jesus Christ and those born again of the same seed/ Word of God
and same Holy Spirit being an eternal life force , where Love is the Bond of perfection and completness , we cannot blaspheme against the Holy Spirit , because its the very LIVING BREATH OF GOD , without it one ceases to be anything ever
This was alot more than I intened to go into :dunno2:
but these things are the very things I think about when meditating on His Word , as do all of us
so I hope this makes more plain what is impossible to explain :HeartThrob:
That made me think. He starts with one and makes them two --male and female--but still calls them by one name--Adam. Then a third is introduced--Jesus-- and the two that were one become three that are one. And, there is no emphasis on anything but equality, even though one might have preceded the other, --Jesus, Adam, Eve--or by any other standard--certainly not something so trivial as one being God, because the One that is God did not think being God was so important as relationship with the ones he loved before the foundation of the world, and love is only possible between equals, and love seeks unity, not separation.
wow
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,saying, "I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE."
Heb 2:11-12
QuoteHe starts with one and makes them two --male and female--but still calls them by one name--Adam.
So wonderful are the ways of God.
I see God's overall plan as including the restoration of the perfect soul which is aided by the way Man is created by God, although humanity has marred, misunderstood and obscured the plan.
I believe the man is meant to look at the higher qualities of the woman - sacrifice, selflessness, tenderness, patience and devotional love - and desire to emulate the reflection of such qualities and draw nearer to the Divine-ideal.
Similarly, the woman, ignoring the characteristics associated with the lesser side of man, can catch the reflection of the higher qualities - stability and strength, courage and the executive power to act in times of need.
The ideal is that each should draw strength from the other. Although certain qualities may be associated with a feminine or a masculine body, yet, through companionship, each may catch the reflected light from the other, and in so seeing its beauty, they long to make it their own.
But, even with this, there is yet only one thing which can make the thing complete, give the finishing touch to that which has been brought together by much discipline of self: the purity, the faith, and the trust of a little child.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 12, 2013, 07:48:26 AM
if Jesus had intended the mysteries of the kingdom to be reduced to high school logic, He would not have spoken in parables things hidden from the foundation of the world. Paul would not have prayed that we receive the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God. We would not need the Spirit of God to reveal unto us the deep things of God. If God had made a box for Himself, a nice neat package we could tie up in a word, their would be no need for us seek, or dig, or to listen to one another for a glimpse of greater revelation of His divine nature.
I agree we are to ask the Lord God for Widom and understanding and revelation and knowledge of Him , as we do Bro John ,
we are simply comparing what the Lord has given us by the gifts of His same Holy Spirit
and same One Body of Christ , lifting up :HeartThrob:
For me its not harming but helpful building up the Body of Christ as we all share with one another what the Lord God has so graciously given to us all
Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Cr 12:2
Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1Cr 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Cr 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Cr 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Cr 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Cr 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Cr 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Cr 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Cr 12:11
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 1Cr 12:12 ¶ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many,
are one body: so also [is] Christ. 1Cr 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1Cr 12:14
For the body is not one member, but many.
1Cr 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Cr 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Cr 12:17 If the whole body [were] an eye, where [were] the hearing? If the whole [were] hearing, where [were] the smelling?
1Cr 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Cr 12:19 And if they were all one member, where [were] the body?
1Cr 12:20
But now [are they] many members, yet but one body.
1Cr 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Cr 12:22
Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 1Cr 12:23 And those [members] of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely [parts] have more abundant comeliness.
1Cr 12:24 For our comely [parts] have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that [part] which lacked:
1Cr 12:25
That there should be no schism in the body; but [that] the members should have the same care one for another.
1Cr 12:26
And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 1Cr 12:27
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Molly that was awesome. That really spoke to me. :cloud9:
Quote from: Molly on June 12, 2013, 09:20:06 AM
Quote from: rosered on June 12, 2013, 05:24:35 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 12, 2013, 04:03:42 AM
Quote from: rosered on June 12, 2013, 01:33:07 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on June 12, 2013, 12:00:51 AM
But after he had considered these things, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, don't be afraid to take Mary as your wife, because what has been conceived in her is by the Holy Spirit.
Mary gave birth to a Son and the angel of the Lord said the Holy Spirit was the Father.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her,
The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,
and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:
therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. :HeartThrob:
I'm just trying to use simple high school logic here.
The Holy Spirit is the father of Jesus.
Jesus is the son of the Highest [God.]
Therefore, the Holy Spirit is the Highest [God].
Jesus is also called the Son of God.
Therefore the Holy Spirit is God.
I'm sure there must be complicated explanations for this.
But I'm just a simple country girl.
Hi Molly , I really do not know How to describe the Holy Spirit , Holy is just the purest form of Love to me and Spirit is something that , its the very thing that LIFE is all life is spirit of some form when the spirit leaves any living thing it begins to decay and not exist any longer so the Holy Spirit to me with feeble attempts to describe , I dont think its male or female but the very LIFE how all forms exist and have their "being " God is Spirit LIFE ITSELF , but God to me is the male /female existance because that is how and why He created man / adam in His Image /likeness of the same nature
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
I love the way its worded , lots to explore when you pick a word and look into other scriptures with the same word meaning or similar verses
like overshadowed , we know Jesus was overshadowed often this meaning is the very presence of the Highest God in a cloud usually [Witness ] declaring His Son [proof]to those in the world
Highest being possible in rank and power and authority totally
and everyone born again of the the Holy Spirit [ that loving life force of the same Family ] Jesus explains to Nicodemus , like the wind blows you hear its sound but never see it come or go just its blast and movement and effects , Just how the Spirit blows , the blasting force of Life , creating a life as a holy thing , being sons of God born from Jesus Christ [SEED /WORD of God
the Word =Jesus Christ and those born again of the same seed/ Word of God
and same Holy Spirit being an eternal life force , where Love is the Bond of perfection and completness , we cannot blaspheme against the Holy Spirit , because its the very LIVING BREATH OF GOD , without it one ceases to be anything ever
This was alot more than I intened to go into :dunno2:
but these things are the very things I think about when meditating on His Word , as do all of us
so I hope this makes more plain what is impossible to explain :HeartThrob:
That made me think. He starts with one and makes them two --male and female--but still calls them by one name--Adam. Then a third is introduced--Jesus-- and the two that were one become three that are one. And, there is no emphasis on anything but equality, even though one might have preceded the other, --Jesus, Adam, Eve--or by any other standard--certainly not something so trivial as one being God, because the One that is God did not think being God was so important as relationship with the ones he loved before the foundation of the world, and love is only possible between equals, and love seeks unity, not separation.
wow
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
saying, "I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE."
Heb 2:11-12
I appreciate your simplicity in Christ Molly , that is also who I learn
I love how you said this , made me think as well ,
when God had Eve come out of Adams rib , though the deep sleep , her being the mother of the living Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
Just as God took Adam and brought out Eve from within him to create a helpmeet and wife and pro create living beings offspring , so did GOD do so with Jesus Christ bringing out the helpmeet for Jesus a beautiful bride woman out of His spotless and they begin to pro create godly offspring
we know that the Church / bride of Christ come out of Christ after his death/ sleep after the cross ,
I am reminded of Pauls , verses saying making you chaste virgin for Christ , those pure minds are the Marys of our time, noted its the pure minds that the seed/Word of God must take hold for the sons of God to be manifested and working life force of the Holy Spirit to pro create , Jesus being the firstborn/ firstfruits from the dead , under Law all died in Adam and Jesus fulfills this in Himself bringing godly offsring , given new life calling them the sons of God and bringing in the new covenant of under grace , by the Work of God sending His Son and dying on that cross .
and when Christ has risen in our hearts and minds , than the new Life begins for the Seed of Truth and Holy Spirit of God the Father though Jesus Christ all creation is made new ! :HeartThrob:
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 1Cr 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead
, then is Christ not risen:
1Cr 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.
1Cr 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Cr 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Cr 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Cr 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Cr 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Cr 15:20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Cr 15:21
For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 1Cr 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Cr 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cr 15:47
The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
1Cr 15:48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
1Cr 15:49
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Cr 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
1Cr 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Cr 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Would to God ye could bear with me a little in [my] folly: and indeed bear with me.
2Cr 11:2
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy:
for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ. 2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Cr 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].
I know you want more of the titles of Authority and how the work of the Three the the Holy Father , and Holy Son and Holy Spirit operate as ONE
I was more of going into the work than the titles
so sorry this may or may not be helpful to you Molly
but it was Lastpost that made me think along these lines as well as your post
praying for clarity still as the Lord reveals His mysteries of His Holy Kingdom :HeartThrob:
That made me think. He starts with one and makes them two --male and female--but still calls them by one name--Adam. Then a third is introduced--Jesus-- and the two that were one become three that are one. And, there is no emphasis on anything but equality, even though one might have preceded the other, --Jesus, Adam, Eve--or by any other standard--certainly not something so trivial as one being God, because the One that is God did not think being God was so important as relationship with the ones he loved before the foundation of the world, and love is only possible between equals, and love seeks unity, not separation.
wow
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
saying, "I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE."
Molly Love is equal.
When we look through the eyes of Love
IMO
The question who is greater Father Son Spirit Man Woman Jew Gentile,
does not have an answer and it is not a mystery.
well, I was thinking..if people be hard-pressed to accept God being in Jesus Christ and the Holy spirit...how are they going to deal with
ready.............
GOD BEING ALL IN ALL
Consider for a second that Yashua is the first of many brothers and sisters. Once we join Him and become one with Him than what happens to your trinity theory?
Currently the family of Yahweh consists of Yashua and the Holy Spirit. Now add 6 billion people to the family and the term trinity does not apply.
We will all be one in Yashua in the name of Yahweh (our's and Yashua's father). How can you call the family of Yahweh a limited trinity when there will be over 6 billion members of one family?
AMEN and AMEN! :dsunny: :dsunny: :HeartThrob: GLORY!
well....the new body..still has a head[ the spirit and word of God] I don't use 'trinity" as a doctrine.......spirit/breath and word comes out of a mouth....
a mouth is in the head..that speaks the mind.[brain]...and adminsters the will and thoughts of the head.
the body may be one,but it still has a head....that co-ordinates and directs the one body
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 13, 2013, 02:02:50 AM
Consider for a second that Yashua is the first of many brothers and sisters. Once we join Him and become one with Him than what happens to your trinity theory?
Currently the family of Yahweh consists of Yashua and the Holy Spirit. Now add 6 billion people to the family and the term trinity does not apply.
We will all be one in Yashua in the name of Yahweh (our's and Yashua's father). How can you call the family of Yahweh a limited trinity when there will be over 6 billion members of one family?
We become part of the trinity through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. God will be all in all in us first.
That's the whole point, isn't it?
Hmmm. Perhaps, just maybe, when God is all in all, we will be a trinity as Father, Son, and Bride. :Chinscratch: :HeartThrob: :URWelcome:
Watchman Nee believed in the verbal inspiration of the Bible and that the Bible is God's holy Word. He believed that God is triune—Father, Son, and Spirit—distinctly three, yet fully one, co-existing and coinhering each other from eternity to eternity. He believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, even God Himself, incarnated as a man with both the human and the divine life, that He died on the cross to accomplish redemption, that he rose bodily from the dead on the third day, that He ascended into heaven and was enthroned, crowned with glory, and made the Lord of all, and that He will return the second time to receive His followers, to save Israel, and to establish His millennial kingdom on the earth. He believed that every person who believes in Jesus Christ will be forgiven by God, washed by His redeeming blood, justified by faith, regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and saved by grace. Such a believer is a child of God and a member of the Body of Christ. He also believed that the destiny of every believer is to be an integral part of the church, which is the Body of Christ and the house of God.[7].
---Wikipedia
This is what I believe, too, but I didn't have to spend 20 years in prison for my beliefs. He did.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on June 13, 2013, 02:53:17 AM
Hmmm. Perhaps, just maybe, when God is all in all, we will be a trinity as Father, Son, and Bride. :Chinscratch: :HeartThrob: :URWelcome:
Yes, Amen!
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.The two shall become one flesh.
But, this is happening now for us.
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
--2 Cor 13:14
Paul prays here that we have the 'koinonia' --the fellowship--of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is a person with a mind, a will, emotions.
It is through the Holy Spirit that we receive power from God.
It is the Holy Spirit who ushers us into the kingdom of God.
This is one of the first things that was revealed to me when I became a born again Christian.
Jesus derived all his power on earth through the Holy Spirit.
That same power is available to us, as an earnest of our salvation.
But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
--Mat 12:28
The Holy Spirit is the power of the Godhead.
The Holy Spirit conceived the baby Jesus.
Mary is told,
The power of the highest shall come upon thee.
The Holy Spirit is the power of the Highest [God].
for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. Mat 1
The Holy Spirit is the Father of the human baby Jesus.
The Holy Spirit anointed Jesus for his ministry.
John the Baptist was told how to recognize the Messiah. He is the One on whom the Holy Spirit remains.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
--John 1
The Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead. He raises us likewise from the dead [in sins].
The Holy Spirit raises Jesus from the dead.And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, then He who raised Christ from the dead will also bring your mortal bodies to life through His Spirit who lives in you. Rom 8:11
Where can I find this information in the Bible? "The Holy Spirit is the Father of the human baby Jesus."
This is what I found.....
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on June 13, 2013, 03:24:11 AM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on June 13, 2013, 02:53:17 AM
Hmmm. Perhaps, just maybe, when God is all in all, we will be a trinity as Father, Son, and Bride. :Chinscratch: :HeartThrob: :URWelcome:
Yes, Amen! For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
The two shall become one flesh.
But, this is happening now for us.
Awesome! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on June 13, 2013, 01:22:02 PM
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
--2 Cor 13:14
Paul prays here that we have the 'koinonia' --the fellowship--of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is a person with a mind, a will, emotions.
It is through the Holy Spirit that we receive power from God.
It is the Holy Spirit who ushers us into the kingdom of God.
This is one of the first things that was revealed to me when I became a born again Christian.
Jesus derived all his power on earth through the Holy Spirit.
That same power is available to us, as an earnest of our salvation.
But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
--Mat 12:28
Quote from: Molly on June 13, 2013, 02:26:34 PM
The Holy Spirit is the power of the Godhead.
The Holy Spirit conceived the baby Jesus.
Mary is told,
The power of the highest shall come upon thee.
The Holy Spirit is the power of the Highest [God].
for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. Mat 1
The Holy Spirit is the Father of the human baby Jesus.
The Holy Spirit anointed Jesus for his ministry.
John the Baptist was told how to recognize the Messiah. He is the One on whom the Holy Spirit remains.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
--John 1
The Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead. He raises us likewise from the dead [in sins].
The Holy Spirit raises Jesus from the dead.And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, then He who raised Christ from the dead will also bring your mortal bodies to life through His Spirit who lives in you. Rom 8:11
Thanks, Molly, for sharing this. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on June 13, 2013, 03:21:24 AM
Watchman Nee believed in the verbal inspiration of the Bible and that the Bible is God's holy Word. He believed that God is triune—Father, Son, and Spirit—distinctly three, yet fully one, co-existing and coinhering each other from eternity to eternity. He believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, even God Himself, incarnated as a man with both the human and the divine life, that He died on the cross to accomplish redemption, that he rose bodily from the dead on the third day, that He ascended into heaven and was enthroned, crowned with glory, and made the Lord of all, and that He will return the second time to receive His followers, to save Israel, and to establish His millennial kingdom on the earth. He believed that every person who believes in Jesus Christ will be forgiven by God, washed by His redeeming blood, justified by faith, regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and saved by grace. Such a believer is a child of God and a member of the Body of Christ. He also believed that the destiny of every believer is to be an integral part of the church, which is the Body of Christ and the house of God.[7].
---Wikipedia
This is what I believe, too, but I didn't have to spend 20 years in prison for my beliefs. He did.
The interesting think about Watchman Nee is that he is the poster child for
for arbitrary excommunication.
Although being approved by God to preach.
Watchman Nee was not approved by North American evangelicals.
The Christian research institute labeled him and his movement a cult.
They said that Watchmen Nee had the wrong description of the Trinity.
They reasoned if you had the wrong idea about the trinity you had a false Jesus.
After years and years of explanations and written studies of the Trinity
with other North American evangelicals .
The C.R.I. have taken him off of their cult list and stamped him as an official
Trinitarian.
Accordingly we can let our children join his home church movement and they won't have to have shaved heads.
Spiritually blind people need labels so they can decide.
Every time they hear some one say
" the Spirit of God has shown me this or the Spirit of God has shown me that."
If they can put a label on it then they can dismiss
the idea, that some one else sees and they don't.
You're a what?
A person that sees U.R. (well I don't have listen to you. You have a false Jesus.)
You're a what ?
A person that sees a Trinity (well I don't have listen to you. You have a false Jesus.)
You're a what?
A person that does not see a trinity (well I don't have listen to you. You have a false Jesus.)
You're a what ?
A person that does not have a creed. (well I don't have listen to you. You have a false Jesus.)
Labels are used to separate in to categories .
The different posts and opinions are very helpful for me
as I look in the different jars with different labels I see the bringing
together as Love.
All the jars are different, the miraculous part is making them all ONE
I like that. :dsunny:
"Holy" - Strong's when used with "Ghost or Spirit" #40 - hagios - "terrible, awful, sacred, pure"
"Ghost or Spirit" - Strong's #4151 pneuma - "current of air, breath" (according to "breathed into & became living/alive" to me, spirit or ghost = life
If the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary and she was with child, the Father is the Son's Father.. I can't personally see the Holy Spirit as a 'separate' entity with own will and personality.. but as the power, essence and presence of God the Father..
I'm thinking this topic would take an examining of every single "Holy Spirit" and "Holy Ghost" reference... but here's a few that caught my eye:
Amplified Version:
Matthew 1:18
..before they came together, she was found to be pregnant [through the power] of the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 1:30
..for that which is conceived in her is of (from, out of) the Holy Spirit.
Luke 1:35
Then the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you [like a shining cloud]; and so the holy (pure, sinless) Thing (Offspring) which shall be born of you will be called the Son of God.
Luke 3:22
And the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came from heaven, saying, You are My Son, My Beloved! In You I am well pleased and find delight!
Acts 2:4
And they were all filled (diffused throughout their souls) with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other (different, foreign) languages (tongues), as the Spirit kept giving them clear and loud expression [in each tongue in appropriate words].
-- [1 Corinthians 15:28
However, when everything is subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also subject Himself to [the Father] Who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all [be everything to everyone, supreme, the indwelling and controlling factor of life. & Ephesians 1:23
...the fullness of Him Who fills all in all ..Who makes everything complete, and Who fills everything everywhere with Himself.]
Acts 4:8
Then Peter, [because he was] filled with [and controlled by] the Holy Spirit..
Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses of these things, and the Holy Spirit is also, Whom God has bestowed on those who obey Him. - But, interlinear lexicon says it this way, w/o the "whom" we are witnesses of these things, and the Spirit Holy, which gave God to the ones obeying Him
Acts 6:5
And the suggestion pleased the whole assembly, and they selected Stephen, a man full of faith (a strong and welcome belief that Jesus is the Messiah) and full of and controlled by the Holy Spirit,
Acts 13:2
While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, Separate now for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.
Acts 13:52
And the disciples were continually filled [throughout their souls] with joy and the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:3
For God has done what the Law could not do, [its power] being weakened by the flesh [the entire nature of man without the Holy Spirit].
1 Corinthians 2:10
Yet to us God has unveiled and revealed them by and through His Spirit,
1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have not received the spirit [that belongs to] the world, but the [Holy] Spirit Who is from God, [given to us] that we might realize and comprehend and appreciate the gifts [of divine favor and blessing so freely and lavishly] bestowed on us by God.
--but again, the side by side w/ the greek, leaves out the "who" - but the [Holy] Spirit from God,
1 Corinthians 6:11
..you were consecrated (set apart, hallowed), and you were justified [pronounced righteous, by trusting] in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the [Holy] Spirit of our God.
1 Corinthians 12:9
To another [wonder-working] faith by the same [Holy] Spirit, to another the extraordinary powers of healing by the one Spirit;
1 Corinthians 14:37
..filled with and governed by the Holy Spirit of God
Revelation 3:22
He who is able to hear, let him listen to and heed what the [Holy] Spirit says to the assemblies (churches).
Revelation 4:5
Out from the throne came flashes of lightning and rumblings and peals of thunder, and in front of the throne seven blazing torches burned, which are the seven Spirits of God [the sevenfold Holy Spirit];
But, I'm thinking this topic would take an examining of every single "Holy Spirit" and "Holy Ghost" reference...
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=holy+ghost&searchtype=phrase&version1=9&language1=en&spanbegin=47&spanend=73
2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace (favor and spiritual blessing) of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the presence and fellowship (the communion and sharing together, and participation) in the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen (so be it). :girlheart:
I like that marie glen> :dsunny:
Hi Marie,
Take a look at this article from Let Us Reason ministries.
Tell me what you think.
Also, do you have any personal experience with the Holy Spirit as a person?
THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON
The qualifications for a person are that they have
1. A mind - able to think and act upon their thinking
2. their own will - self identity
3. and emotions - able to react cognitively
As personal human beings we all have these qualities. Another quality of being personal is that one has life. A person is identified as a self-conscious being, cognizant of its own existence and the existence of others who also have a self-identity. A will indicates the ability to think, to reason, a choice to act, having desire these are things we associate with self consciousness which is exclusive to Persons. All of these qualities the Holy Spirit has, just as the Son and Father. We find the Holy Spirit is the executive of the Father. He is co-creator of the universe, The author of divine Scripture, the generator of Christ's humanity, the regenerator of the believer and the distributor of eternal life, for He also eternally exists.
The Holy Spirit is identified as a Person by John, using in the Greek the masculine ekeinos in Jn.16:13. The Holy Spirit is presented as a personal being with a self-identity different from both the Father, and the Son. As the Father and Jesus make this distinction when speaking of Him. He the Holy Spirit says "Separate Barnabas and Saul to me;" He also is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2.
The Jehovah Witnesses Holy Spirit is not God, but a force like in Buddhism. But it was not always so, like all their doctrines they depart from any kind of semblance of orthodoxy. Lets look at how they describe a spirit being ,"Is the Devil a personification or a person? ... Can an unintelligent 'force' carry on a conversation with a person? ... only an intelligent person could. . . . 'Every quality, every action, which can indicate personality, is attributed to him in language which cannot be explained away."' (Awake 12/8/1973, p. 27) "Nothing in this and similar texts involves the thought of a personal Holy Spirit . . . (Studies in the Scripture , Vol. 5, p. 244)
The main purpose of the Holy Spirit was to come alongside the believer, to do what Jesus did when he was here physically, but mainly from the inside of us. He is called the comforter, this would be a hard thing to do if the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force. The helper paracletos is used for the Spirit in the NT. by Jesus. This was used in Greek almost always of persons. Here the Lord calls him our helper, one that comes alongside. Even with the other titles attributed to him this still does not change who he is behind those titles. He (the Spirit) says "separate Barnabas and Saul to me" he also is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2. If the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force as Jehovah's Witnesses claim, or a mode as in Oneness Pentecostalism, then He cannot be another of the same kind. Jesus is a person, if the Spirit is another comforter this requires the Spirit to be a person also. How could He duplicate all the things of Jesus unless He is a person? The helper in Gr. paracletos, is used to describe the Spirit in the New Testament by Jesus. This was used in Greek almost always of persons. Here the Lord calls him our helper, one that comes alongside. When we speak of person it does not necessitate form but personality and identity.
Looking at the attributes of the Spirit we find no difference in His nature, function and communion with the believer than with Jesus. Rom.8:27 He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the spirit is, because he makes intercession for the saints," 1 Cor.12:11: "But the one and the same spirit works all these things dividing to each one as He wills. Acts 8.29: The Spirit spoke to Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it." Rev 2-3: "Let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches" Rev 22.17: The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" If the Spirit is impersonal so is the Bride.
The activities of the Spirit are all descriptions of what persons do. Many groups come to the irrational and illogical conclusion that he is only a force used by the Father to accomplish his purposes. This power the Jehovah's Witnesses claim is impersonal like an artificial intelligence that will accomplish Gods will in our lives. Romans 8.16: The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. To make the Holy Spirit something other than a personality a being (a force?) This means that we are indwelt with a human non personality. This means we have no inner nature that rules over our body, that all we are is our body just like the evolutionists say.
Paul uses the spirit Gr. pneuma as The masculine pronoun He , giving him identity. The Holy Spirit is portrayed as a personal being with an identity different then both the Father and the Son. He is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2.
As we understand that the nature of the Father and Son and Spirit have always been the same, they are all eternal. They all share in common the same essence, which is God. They also share in the divine name of Yahweh. All the attributes of God that are held in common with the Father and Son are shared also with the Holy Spirit.
He has omnipresence Ps.139:7-10 David writes whether he goes up to heaven or into hell below God is there, he cannot escape his Spirit. He is omnipresent, everywhere since he would dwell in every believer simultaneously.( 3 omnis are described in this passage omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience all attributes of God). The essence of the Holy Spirit is that he is omniscient- all knowing 1 Cor.2:10-11: "For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God." Only God can comprehend God himself, he knows things of God and things we do not know of ourselves.
There are scriptures that refer to the Holy Spirit as being the "Spirit of Jesus", the "Spirit of Christ", or "Spirit of the Son" "the Spirit of the Father" If the Son and Father are persons then this certainly does not make the Spirit a non person.
Heb.9:14 he is called the eternal Spirit. Because he is in us, the Scripture equates him as God in us (Rom.8:9-10, 1Cor.3:16, 6:19, Jn.14:23, 15:4, 1 Jn.4:12-13,15) He is omnipresent since he would dwell in every believer simultaneously and he is called God 1 Cor.6:19. He is omniscient 2 Cor.2:10 "the Spirit searches the deep things of God." Only God can know the infinite things contained in himself. Luke 12.12: for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say." I Cor. 2.13: "This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit," How is this possible without language or communication.
Rom.8:27 He has a mind (proving he is personal). Rom.15:30 he has love which only those with intelligence and personality express. Eph.4:30 he is grieved. Heb.10:29 he can be insulted. He can be blasphemed. Mt.12:32 Tells us all sins committed against the Son will be forgiven but the sin against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This certainly affirms he is neither a force nor a mere creature. Only an eternal sin cannot be forgiven, which means it is against the eternal God.
John 14.16: And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another comforter to be with you forever -- the Spirit of truth ."
John 14.26: But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 16.7: "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." Not it to you! To the disciples who were grieving, if the Spirit were an impersonal force it would no way comfort or replace a real person. Imagine saying don't worry you'll have electricity or a force!
Jn.14:26, 1Cor.2:13 He teaches us Gal.5:18, Rom.8:9 he is our guide. These are important functions of someone who is alive, with emotion and personal interaction. How can he do this for all believers unless he has the omnipresence and omniscience that God has. Rom.8:26-27 he groans along with us, he intercedes for us to the Father ( this gives him personality and feelings) 1 Thess.1:6 he Gives us joy. He also hears from the Father Jn.16:13 and he is able to testify of the Son Jn.15:26. The Spirit's role is to convince unbelievers of sin, righteousness, and judgment, this means intelligence. The Spirit is also attributed to being the author of Holy Scripture which gives him communication skills also part of intelligence. In Rev.14:13 we find the Spirit speaks from heaven saying "write." All these characteristics give personal identity to the Holy Spirit, which makes him a personal and distinct from the father and the Son.
In the OT. he is called the Spirit of the Lord (Yahweh) Judges 3:10, 6:34, 11:29, 13:25, 2 Sam. 23:2, 1 Kings 18:12 Isa.11:2, 40:13 He is called the Spirit of God (Elohim) Gen.1:2, 1 Sam. 19:20,23. 2 Sam. 23:2;1 Cor. 3:16, 7:40 the Spirit of our God 1 Cor.6:11, His Spirit Num.11:29, My Spirit Gen.6:3 Spirit of the living God 2 Cor.3:3, He is called the Spirit of the Father Mt.10:20. The Spirit of the Lord God Isa.61:1 If the Spirit is God (which he is) then his name would also be called Yahweh just as the Father and the Son are. Since they are all God they all share in common the same name. In the NT. He is called the Spirit of grace Heb.10:24, The Spirit of life Rom.8:2, of truth Jn.14:17, Holiness Rom. 1:4, Spirit of Glory 1 Pt.4:14 showing he has the same glory shared with both the Father and the Son. These are descriptive of his attributes which all three persons share in. He is called God 1 Cor.6:19. It is Paul that states we are the temple of God because the Holy Spirit dwells in us (Rom. 8:9, 8:11, 1 Cor.3:16, 6:19) 2 Cor.6:16 "For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: " I will dwell in them and walk among them. I will be their God, and they shall be My people." If God says he will be in us, and it is the Holy Spirit in us, doesn't that make him God? God is personal.
He speaks to man: Isa.6:8-9 "Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I! Send me." And He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.' Paul in the NT. applies this scripture giving the credit to the Holy Spirit for saying it. Isa.59:21 the Spirit gave the men the words.
Mark 13.11: Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
Acts 1.16: and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus
In Acts 5 Peter confronted Annanias and Sapphira said you have lied to the Holy Spirit vs.3 he then says you have not lied to man but to God v.4 in reference to his first rebuke. Since Jesus said God is Spirit in Jn.4 this should settle any conflict. The Holy Spirit's work is evident from creation onward, there is no reason not to come the conclusion that the Spirit is God. He makes Jesus known just as Jesus made the Father known.
Acts 8.29: The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."
Acts 10:19: "While Peter thought about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are seeking you."
Acts 11:12: "Then the Spirit told me to go with them, doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered the man's house."
Acts 13.2: "While they were worshipping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
Acts 28:25-27: "The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, "saying, 'Go to this people and say: "Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you will see, and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them."
I Tim 4.1: "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits
Heb.3.7: "So, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you hear his voice."
Rev 14:13: "Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "amen," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."
Rev. 22.17: "The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" Both have intelligence.
All of these Scriptures prove that the Bible upholds the Spirit as a personal being every bit as personal and intelligent as God.
The Spirit is also attributed to being the author of Holy Scripture which gives him communication skills, also part of intelligence. In Rev.14:13 we find the Spirit speaks from heaven saying "write". All these characteristics give personal identity to the Holy Spirit which makes him a person. Rev 2-3: "Let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches" this is repeated 6 times after to each church.
It is the Spirit that brings one to recognize who Christ is. To fight and refuse this is to ignore the testimony of Jesus. If one thinks it is a force that that is revealing the Son, than this would automatically change who the Son is as well.
The Spirit has a different position functioning in a submissive role to Christ. Just as Christ was in a submissive position to the Father on Earth not acting independently. Likewise the Spirit does the same, taking a subordinate role to both Christ and the Father when he is sent to earth ( Jn.16:13). This is not a essential subordination of nature but in position and function. His purpose is not to bring attention to himself but to the Son.
Find this article here: http://www.lightofmashiach.org/one.html (http://www.lightofmashiach.org/one.html)
God is One, Not A Trinity
Ellen Kavanaugh
"Hear O Israel, YHVH is G-d, YHVH is ONE." (Deut 6:4)
I do not subscribe to trinitarian/tri-unitarian doctrines which attempt to define God as three Persons in One. YHVH is One.
I am convinced one reason why a trinitarian doctrine was incorporated into Christianity was to explain the 'person' of Yeshua; to explain how he could be God. That God could take on human form as an earthly Messiah isn't difficult to accept -- afterall -- He'd previously supped with Abraham (Gen 18) and He had wrestled with Jacob (Gen 32) *while also in human form*. Our powerful God can manifest Himself in many forms; there is no need for these weak doctrines that attempt to sub-divide the godhead in attempts to explain "how" He does it. Trinitarians start dividing up the godhead so that the Father is one person, the Son/Yeshua is a second person, and then the Ruach (spirit) is a third person. Scripture never says God is divided up into three persons! The word 'trinity' isn't even Scriptural. Trinity is a manmade doctrine that borrows heavily from pagan sources. Scripture tells us God is One *not* three. Ultimately the trinity doctrine seeks to limit our heavenly Father to merely one-third of the godhead. Isn't it easier to just accept Scripture at Its Word? We have One God, and He can manifest Himself in any form He chooses without needing to be subdivided to fit the manmade doctrines.
Hi Molly, :smile:
I have experience with the Holy Spirit of God, as the Presence and Power of God.. and the one who leads into all truth.. a sense of clarity and understanding.. and of course, much more..
I think for instance the Jehovah Witnesses believe the Spirit is a power but not God Himself or His Presence with us, nor a consciousness at all.. Nor perhaps as the Spirit which indwells us and will fill all things.. Although not being a JW I could be wrong about that. I think of the Holy Spirit as having and being a consciousness, as I think the Holy/Pure Spirit of God is His Presence with us who believe..
I'm afraid I stick pretty much with almost only the Word, I figure if I can't find the answer in the Word, it can't be found..
The article you posted was interesting but as far as my perception, doesn't speak to what I think, as I do think the Spirit of God has consciousness, etc, as I think the Spirit of God is God.. just as the spirit of me, would be.. me. And the spirit of you.. would be, you.
What I don't believe is that the Spirit of God (or the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost) is a third "person" of the trinity or of a three in one.. but that the Holy Spirit is the Holy/Pure Spirit of God.. That the plan is for God to fill all things, and be all in all.. that God Himself will fill all.. Which of course started first with Jesus, the Son and "firstborn of all creation" the one in whom all things are being gathered. God made Jesus the cornerstone, capstone and, or foundation of all creation. God will not have to do any babysitting. He is creating something far better than that. But maybe I'm straying.. As I read through the references in the concordance, especially the ones I posted, it seemed clear to me that God Himself indwells us and will fill all in all.. (I think ppl fear God Himself.. that's why many churches worship only Jesus saying the Son is the Father.. and He prayed to...? and perhaps seeing His Spirit as another, has perhaps for some this same basis, not understanding that the emotions of the Father in the Old Testament has to do with the acts of barbaric mankind. What Father worth His salt wouldn't be exactly as angry as He was when they were placing live babes into fire as sacrifices to 'the gods' and the sex rites which brought some of those babes about.. albeit with a whole lotta patience, mercy and forbearance.. forgiveness.. I know I could never be so patient nor kind, nor forgiving, wipe 'em all out, start over!!)
I believe the Father is the Father and the Son is the Son.. in the God family and Kingdom, I see two.. Though JBerton.. may be right that the bride will become part of that family, albeit still lesser.. I think of this whole thing, God's intent - through life as we presently know it - to be the creating of God's own family (of many beautiful branches) sorry straying :laughing7: ..
As you may see I believe the Holy Spirit of God has a mind, a will, self identity, and emotions.. I believe the Holy Ghost is God/God's very Presence with us, and indwelling the believer.. the same force which rose Jesus from the grave.. and parted the Red Sea.. I don't even believe we can understand His Word without His Spirit showing it to us..
Do you, Molly, think of the Holy Spirit as a third One.. that there is the Father, the Son and the Spirit?
blessings, :smile: :hiya:
glenda marie
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 14, 2013, 04:41:33 AM
Find this article here: http://www.lightofmashiach.org/one.html (http://www.lightofmashiach.org/one.html)
God is One, Not A Trinity
Ellen Kavanaugh
"Hear O Israel, YHVH is G-d, YHVH is ONE." (Deut 6:4)
I do not subscribe to trinitarian/tri-unitarian doctrines which attempt to define God as three Persons in One. YHVH is One.
I am convinced one reason why a trinitarian doctrine was incorporated into Christianity was to explain the 'person' of Yeshua; to explain how he could be God. That God could take on human form as an earthly Messiah isn't difficult to accept -- afterall -- He'd previously supped with Abraham (Gen 18) and He had wrestled with Jacob (Gen 32) *while also in human form*. Our powerful God can manifest Himself in many forms; there is no need for these weak doctrines that attempt to sub-divide the godhead in attempts to explain "how" He does it. Trinitarians start dividing up the godhead so that the Father is one person, the Son/Yeshua is a second person, and then the Ruach (spirit) is a third person. Scripture never says God is divided up into three persons! The word 'trinity' isn't even Scriptural. Trinity is a manmade doctrine that borrows heavily from pagan sources. Scripture tells us God is One *not* three. Ultimately the trinity doctrine seeks to limit our heavenly Father to merely one-third of the godhead. Isn't it easier to just accept Scripture at Its Word? We have One God, and He can manifest Himself in any form He chooses without needing to be subdivided to fit the manmade doctrines.
Hi! :smile: I believe God is One.. and I believe He has a Son (because that's how He chose to do it)
blessings!
Hi Marie,
Yes, I have long experienced the Holy Spirit as a person, although I didn't know who he was. I thought maybe an angel. Then I thought maybe Jesus himself.
Only on reading the scripture did I realize it was the Holy Spirit.
Like everyone has said, doctrine doesn't necessarily impact our salvation, but I feel that it so greatly adds to the quality of our experience with God, that it is worth exploring.
Keep an eye out, Marie, it's possible he might reveal himself to you some day as a person.
He's always with us--Helper, Comforter, Teacher, Revelator, Companion, and Guide.
Quote from: Molly on June 14, 2013, 05:04:52 AM
He's always with us--Helper, Comforter, Teacher, Revelator, Companion, and Guide.
That I agree with! :))
Quote from: Molly on June 14, 2013, 05:04:52 AM
Hi Marie,
Keep an eye out, Marie, it's possible he might reveal himself to you some day as a person.
Hi again, Molly,
I have to think you mean perhaps I may experience Him as a person-separate or other than God.. as of course I have experienced Him as a person.. a living being.. :laughing7:
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 14, 2013, 04:41:33 AM
Find this article here: http://www.lightofmashiach.org/one.html (http://www.lightofmashiach.org/one.html)
God is One, Not A Trinity
Ellen Kavanaugh
"Hear O Israel, YHVH is G-d, YHVH is ONE." (Deut 6:4)
I do not subscribe to trinitarian/tri-unitarian doctrines which attempt to define God as three Persons in One. YHVH is One.
I am convinced one reason why a trinitarian doctrine was incorporated into Christianity was to explain the 'person' of Yeshua; to explain how he could be God. That God could take on human form as an earthly Messiah isn't difficult to accept -- afterall -- He'd previously supped with Abraham (Gen 18) and He had wrestled with Jacob (Gen 32) *while also in human form*. Our powerful God can manifest Himself in many forms; there is no need for these weak doctrines that attempt to sub-divide the godhead in attempts to explain "how" He does it. Trinitarians start dividing up the godhead so that the Father is one person, the Son/Yeshua is a second person, and then the Ruach (spirit) is a third person. Scripture never says God is divided up into three persons! The word 'trinity' isn't even Scriptural. Trinity is a manmade doctrine that borrows heavily from pagan sources. Scripture tells us God is One *not* three. Ultimately the trinity doctrine seeks to limit our heavenly Father to merely one-third of the godhead. Isn't it easier to just accept Scripture at Its Word? We have One God, and He can manifest Himself in any form He chooses without needing to be subdivided to fit the manmade doctrines.
Here is the scripture from E-sword KJV
Deu 6:4 Hear,H8085 O Israel:H3478 The LORDH3068 our GodH430 is oneH259 LORD:H306
You see that word, 'one.' Maybe you missed my post on this. That word 'one' is not the numerical number one.
It is the same word used in Gen 2 about Adam and his wife--the two shall become
one flesh.
"one"H259
אחד
'echâdekh-awd'
A numeral from H258;]
properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
The root word H258 means 'to unify.'
It says, btw, the LORD our God is one LORD, with LORD meaning YAHWEH and God meaning 'ĕlôhı̂ym.
Quote from: marie glen on June 14, 2013, 05:11:02 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 14, 2013, 05:04:52 AM
Hi Marie,
Keep an eye out, Marie, it's possible he might reveal himself to you some day as a person.
Hi again, Molly,
I have to think you mean perhaps I may experience Him as a person-separate or other than God.. as of course I have experienced Him as a person.. a living being.. :laughing7:
Oh! Then you already know the Holy Spirit is a person and that He is God. And, you know He is the Holy Spirit because Jesus told us he would send the Holy Spirit to us and told us what His function would be in our lives.
Molly I believe you like to qualify this word by Jesus Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
That Jesus was still a human and that explains how the Father is greater, perhaps there maybe something in that. Well how about this
Joh_14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh_16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Jesus had to depart before the another Comforter(Jesus was the first Comforter) would come, why?
Because Jesus had to die to become the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the only man to date that is truly born again of the Spirit(wind) and He did not become that Holy Spirit until He died and rose from the dead and He returned to His disciples as the Comforter....the Holy Spirit....Jesus Christ.
Here I dentifies Himself, Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me......" even the Spirit of truth, ...."
Quote from: mplsfitter539 on June 14, 2013, 04:41:33 AM
Find this article here: http://www.lightofmashiach.org/one.html (http://www.lightofmashiach.org/one.html)
God is One, Not A Trinity
Ellen Kavanaugh
"Hear O Israel, YHVH is G-d, YHVH is ONE." (Deut 6:4)
I do not subscribe to trinitarian/tri-unitarian doctrines which attempt to define God as three Persons in One. YHVH is One.
I am convinced one reason why a trinitarian doctrine was incorporated into Christianity was to explain the 'person' of Yeshua; to explain how he could be God. That God could take on human form as an earthly Messiah isn't difficult to accept -- afterall -- He'd previously supped with Abraham (Gen 18) and He had wrestled with Jacob (Gen 32) *while also in human form*. Our powerful God can manifest Himself in many forms; there is no need for these weak doctrines that attempt to sub-divide the godhead in attempts to explain "how" He does it. Trinitarians start dividing up the godhead so that the Father is one person, the Son/Yeshua is a second person, and then the Ruach (spirit) is a third person. Scripture never says God is divided up into three persons! The word 'trinity' isn't even Scriptural. Trinity is a manmade doctrine that borrows heavily from pagan sources. Scripture tells us God is One *not* three. Ultimately the trinity doctrine seeks to limit our heavenly Father to merely one-third of the godhead. Isn't it easier to just accept Scripture at Its Word? We have One God, and He can manifest Himself in any form He chooses without needing to be subdivided to fit the manmade doctrines.
Again :iagree: :dsunny:
Quote from: marie glen on June 14, 2013, 04:47:41 AM
Hi Molly, :smile:
I have experience with the Holy Spirit of God, as the Presence and Power of God.. and the one who leads into all truth.. a sense of clarity and understanding.. and of course, much more..
I think for instance the Jehovah Witnesses believe the Spirit is a power but not God Himself or His Presence with us, nor a consciousness at all.. Nor perhaps as the Spirit which indwells us and will fill all things.. Although not being a JW I could be wrong about that. I think of the Holy Spirit as having and being a consciousness, as I think the Holy/Pure Spirit of God is His Presence with us who believe..
I'm afraid I stick pretty much with almost only the Word, I figure if I can't find the answer in the Word, it can't be found..
The article you posted was interesting but as far as my perception, doesn't speak to what I think, as I do think the Spirit of God has consciousness, etc, as I think the Spirit of God is God.. just as the spirit of me, would be.. me. And the spirit of you.. would be, you.
What I don't believe is that the Spirit of God (or the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost) is a third "person" of the trinity or of a three in one.. but that the Holy Spirit is the Holy/Pure Spirit of God.. That the plan is for God to fill all things, and be all in all.. that God Himself will fill all.. Which of course started first with Jesus, the Son and "firstborn of all creation" the one in whom all things are being gathered. God made Jesus the cornerstone, capstone and, or foundation of all creation. God will not have to do any babysitting. He is creating something far better than that. But maybe I'm straying.. As I read through the references in the concordance, especially the ones I posted, it seemed clear to me that God Himself indwells us and will fill all in all.. (I think ppl fear God Himself.. that's why many churches worship only Jesus saying the Son is the Father.. and He prayed to...? and perhaps seeing His Spirit as another, has perhaps for some this same basis, not understanding that the emotions of the Father in the Old Testament has to do with the acts of barbaric mankind. What Father worth His salt wouldn't be exactly as angry as He was when they were placing live babes into fire as sacrifices to 'the gods' and the sex rites which brought some of those babes about.. albeit with a whole lotta patience, mercy and forbearance.. forgiveness.. I know I could never be so patient nor kind, nor forgiving, wipe 'em all out, start over!!)
I believe the Father is the Father and the Son is the Son.. in the God family and Kingdom, I see two.. Though JBerton.. may be right that the bride will become part of that family, albeit still lesser.. I think of this whole thing, God's intent - through life as we presently know it - to be the creating of God's own family (of many beautiful branches) sorry straying :laughing7: ..
As you may see I believe the Holy Spirit of God has a mind, a will, self identity, and emotions.. I believe the Holy Ghost is God/God's very Presence with us, and indwelling the believer.. the same force which rose Jesus from the grave.. and parted the Red Sea.. I don't even believe we can understand His Word without His Spirit showing it to us..
Do you, Molly, think of the Holy Spirit as a third One.. that there is the Father, the Son and the Spirit?
blessings, :smile: :hiya:
glenda marie
:dsunny:
Quote from: marie glen on June 14, 2013, 04:47:41 AM
Hi Molly, :smile:
I have experience with the Holy Spirit of God, as the Presence and Power of God.. and the one who leads into all truth.. a sense of clarity and understanding.. and of course, much more..
I think for instance the Jehovah Witnesses believe the Spirit is a power but not God Himself or His Presence with us, nor a consciousness at all.. Nor perhaps as the Spirit which indwells us and will fill all things.. Although not being a JW I could be wrong about that. I think of the Holy Spirit as having and being a consciousness, as I think the Holy/Pure Spirit of God is His Presence with us who believe..
I'm afraid I stick pretty much with almost only the Word, I figure if I can't find the answer in the Word, it can't be found..
The article you posted was interesting but as far as my perception, doesn't speak to what I think, as I do think the Spirit of God has consciousness, etc, as I think the Spirit of God is God.. just as the spirit of me, would be.. me. And the spirit of you.. would be, you.
What I don't believe is that the Spirit of God (or the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost) is a third "person" of the trinity or of a three in one.. but that the Holy Spirit is the Holy/Pure Spirit of God.. That the plan is for God to fill all things, and be all in all.. that God Himself will fill all.. Which of course started first with Jesus, the Son and "firstborn of all creation" the one in whom all things are being gathered. God made Jesus the cornerstone, capstone and, or foundation of all creation. God will not have to do any babysitting. He is creating something far better than that. But maybe I'm straying.. As I read through the references in the concordance, especially the ones I posted, it seemed clear to me that God Himself indwells us and will fill all in all.. (I think ppl fear God Himself.. that's why many churches worship only Jesus saying the Son is the Father.. and He prayed to...? and perhaps seeing His Spirit as another, has perhaps for some this same basis, not understanding that the emotions of the Father in the Old Testament has to do with the acts of barbaric mankind. What Father worth His salt wouldn't be exactly as angry as He was when they were placing live babes into fire as sacrifices to 'the gods' and the sex rites which brought some of those babes about.. albeit with a whole lotta patience, mercy and forbearance.. forgiveness.. I know I could never be so patient nor kind, nor forgiving, wipe 'em all out, start over!!)
I believe the Father is the Father and the Son is the Son.. in the God family and Kingdom, I see two.. Though JBerton.. may be right that the bride will become part of that family, albeit still lesser.. I think of this whole thing, God's intent - through life as we presently know it - to be the creating of God's own family (of many beautiful branches) sorry straying :laughing7: ..
As you may see I believe the Holy Spirit of God has a mind, a will, self identity, and emotions.. I believe the Holy Ghost is God/God's very Presence with us, and indwelling the believer.. the same force which rose Jesus from the grave.. and parted the Red Sea.. I don't even believe we can understand His Word without His Spirit showing it to us..
Do you, Molly, think of the Holy Spirit as a third One.. that there is the Father, the Son and the Spirit?
blessings, :smile: :hiya:
glenda marie
Beautiful. I see this through the Chief Cornerstone(Jesus the Only begotten son) through which the whole building is becomeing a temple of Living Stones(many sons unto glory)- a habitation of God in the Spirit. (Ephesisans, Peter)
Also in the Vine and the Branches- God being the source(living water), Christ being the vine, us being the branches.
For me this describes it perfectly without the necessity of extra-scriptural words.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 14, 2013, 03:52:48 PM
Molly I believe you like to qualify this word by Jesus Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
That Jesus was still a human and that explains how the Father is greater, perhaps there maybe something in that. Well how about this
Joh_14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh_16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Jesus had to depart before the another Comforter(Jesus was the first Comforter) would come, why?
Because Jesus had to die to become the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the only man to date that is truly born again of the Spirit(wind) and He did not become that Holy Spirit until He died and rose from the dead and He returned to His disciples as the Comforter....the Holy Spirit....Jesus Christ.
Here I dentifies Himself, Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me......" even the Spirit of truth, ...."
"Jesus had to die to become the Holy Spirit"
Are you saying the Holy Spirit did not exist before Jesus became a man and died?
But the Bible says that Jesus as a man on earth had the Spirit without measure.
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. Jn 3:34
" Jesus is the only man to date that is truly born again of the Spirit (wind)"
But Jesus himself tells Nicodemus we must be born again of Spirit. And, Paul tells us we have an earnest of the Spirit now.
It's an interesting thought, though, that Jesus is the only man to date with a resurrected body that can contain the new wine. But the Bible tells us that we are his body, his flesh and his bones. And Hebrews tells us we have access to the most holy place now through a new way, his body.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
--Heb 10
"Jesus had to die to become the Holy Spirit" Yes, to become "another" Comforter.
Joh_16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Are you saying the Holy Spirit did not exist before Jesus became a man and died? No, see Gen.1:2
But the Bible says that Jesus as a man on earth had the spirit without measure. Amen and Glory!
" Jesus is the only man to date that is truly born again of the Spirit (wind)"
But Jesus himself tells Nicodemus we must be born again of Spirit. And, Paul tells us we have an earnest of the Spirit now.
Yes, when we are brought to repentance(a change of mind) we receive the earnest of the Spirit, as you say, now the Holy Spirit begins the work in us, to cleanse us with the fire. :dsunny:
I still don't understand, Micah. Why does Jesus have to die to 'become the Holy Spirit'? In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I just don't understand what you are saying.
Quote from: Molly on June 14, 2013, 05:20:50 PM
I still don't understand, Micah. Why does Jesus have to die to 'become the Holy Spirit'? In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I just don't understand what you are saying.
As long as you continue to hold the thought that the Spirit/Holy Spirit as an entity rather than the Power/energy of God the Father you may not grasp it.
Just what do you think Jesus meant when he said, Joh_16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth;
It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. The act of Love by the Father sending His Son to be the sacrifice/atonement for the sin of the world, and the act of Love by the Son to do the Will of the Father all led to the time for the Son to die as a human. Jesus had to be born again of the Spirit to be able to send the Comforter, Jesus the man was the Comforter to the disciples in earthly form, but to be able reconcile, and do the work it would take the power/energy of the Father.....His Spirit.
Joh 6:63 It is the
spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the
words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
:HeartThrob: :dsunny:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:33
If the law is written in our hearts, no evil spirits, demons, devils, whatever will be able to live inside of us, making us, as the temple of the Holy Spirit, a clean place.
Now look what Jesus is saying he is doing:
"But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
--Luke 11:20
How were the original commandments written?
When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the covenant law, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God. Ex 31:18
The Law was originally written "by the finger of God."
But, those commandments didn't even make it down the mountain before they were broken by Moses when he saw the Israelites worshipping the golden calf.
Yet, the new covenant removes our hearts of stone and replaces them with a heart of flesh, and it is on this heart [of Christ] that the commandments are now written.
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. Eze 36:26
This is why Jesus is able to say to people, Go and sin no more.
Now look at this. Is the 'finger of God" the Holy Spirit?
In another place, Jesus replaces 'finger of God" in that explanation with the Holy Spirit.
But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Mat 12:28
So the "finger of God" is the Holy Spirit.
Now look at this, the Holy Spirit was completely involved in the creation process as the third person in the trinity.
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; Psa 8
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 14, 2013, 05:52:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 14, 2013, 05:20:50 PM
I still don't understand, Micah. Why does Jesus have to die to 'become the Holy Spirit'? In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I just don't understand what you are saying.
As long as you continue to hold the thought that the Spirit/Holy Spirit as an entity rather than the Power/energy of God the Father you may not grasp it.
Just what do you think Jesus meant when he said, Joh_16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
The act of Love by the Father sending His Son to be the sacrifice/atonement for the sin of the world, and the act of Love by the Son to do the Will of the Father all led to the time for the Son to die as a human. Jesus had to be born again of the Spirit to be able to send the Comforter, Jesus the man was the Comforter to the disciples in earthly form, but to be able reconcile, and do the work it would take the power/energy of the Father.....His Spirit.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
:HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Ok I won't grasp it then, Micah, because I believe that the Holy Spirit as the third person of the trinity was totally involved in every aspect of God's creation, and he was with Jesus as Jesus walked the earth containing the Spirit without measure.
Both Jesus and the Holy Spirit came to earth together 2000 years ago.
But, the Spirit was not given to man until Jesus departed to be with the Father, where he remains to this day. We are now in the ministry/age of the Holy Spirit.
:sigh: i do not believe i can be of any help as long as you seek persons and entities.
If you cannot see the simplicity that the power/energy of the Lord God is His Spirit and that, that Spirit is what accomplishes ALL that is accomplished be that through the finger of God, a rushing mighty wind, or an all consuming Fire, healing, discernment, or prophecy. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
I just read your other post :sigh: you have yet to show in the Word of God that the Holy Spirit is a person or for that matter where God is a person. You are allowing a man theory established by doctrine that lacks verse of scripture. You have posted many times what the Holy Spirit does, which I cannot nor will I deny, for I believe it, but you have established no proof of a person. It would seem to me something as important of God being 3 persons in 1, would have been given at least a clue in the OT and then the NT certainly would bring more clarity, but 3 persons in 1, is a theological theory that has no Biblical truth. :dsunny:
Ok now look at this.
Before Jesus dies on the cross, he gives his human spirit to the Holy Spirit, the 'hands' of the Father, that Spirit who will raise him from the dead. And he gives up the [Holy] Ghost. This is how the Son of God dies.
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Luke 23:46
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also bring to life your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you. Rom 8:11
I know you all think I'm nuts, but this stuff is really beautiful. :HeartThrob:
".... he gives his human spirit to the Holy Spirit, "?huh
Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Ghost...G4151 pneuma a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit
I believe Jesus gave up that last [ghost] breath as all human beings do when they die. All of this is the working of the power/energy of(out from) the God the Father. Where have you established an entity separate, not out from, the Father or the Holy Spirit to be a person?
As for, "I know you all think I'm nuts, but this stuff is really beautiful."
I do not think you are nuts, just caught up in what you have come to believe. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
The Holy Spirit is the finger, the fingers, the hand of God, Micah.
He holds the holy power [dynamite, dunamis] in his hands that makes everything happen.
Then he said to me, "This is what the LORD says to Zerubbabel: It is not by force nor by strength, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of Heaven's Armies. Zech 4:6
Isaiah 30:1 "Woe to the obstinate children," declares the LORD, "to those who carry out plans that are not mine, forming an alliance, but not by my Spirit, heaping sin upon sin;
Now watch what happens when a man indwelt by the Holy Spirit, with the double mantel of king and priest, carries out plans by the Spirit of God.
8 When the king of Aram was at war with Israel, he would confer with his officers and say, "We will mobilize our forces at such and such a place."
9 But immediately Elisha, the man of God, would warn the king of Israel, "Do not go near that place, for the Arameans are planning to mobilize their troops there." 10 So the king of Israel would send word to the place indicated by the man of God. Time and again Elisha warned the king, so that he would be on the alert there.
11 The king of Aram became very upset over this. He called his officers together and demanded, "Which of you is the traitor? Who has been informing the king of Israel of my plans?"
12 "It's not us, my lord the king," one of the officers replied. "Elisha, the prophet in Israel, tells the king of Israel even the words you speak in the privacy of your bedroom!"
13 "Go and find out where he is," the king commanded, "so I can send troops to seize him."
And the report came back: "Elisha is at Dothan." 14 So one night the king of Aram sent a great army with many chariots and horses to surround the city.
15 When the servant of the man of God got up early the next morning and went outside, there were troops, horses, and chariots everywhere. "Oh, sir, what will we do now?" the young man cried to Elisha.
16 "Don't be afraid!" Elisha told him. "For there are more on our side than on theirs!" 17 Then Elisha prayed, "O Lord, open his eyes and let him see!" The Lord opened the young man's eyes, and when he looked up, he saw that the hillside around Elisha was filled with horses and chariots of fire.
18 As the Aramean army advanced toward him, Elisha prayed, "O Lord, please make them blind." So the Lord struck them with blindness as Elisha had asked.
19 Then Elisha went out and told them, "You have come the wrong way! This isn't the right city! Follow me, and I will take you to the man you are looking for." And he led them to the city of Samaria.
20 As soon as they had entered Samaria, Elisha prayed, "O Lord, now open their eyes and let them see." So the Lord opened their eyes, and they discovered that they were in the middle of Samaria.
21 When the king of Israel saw them, he shouted to Elisha, "My father, should I kill them? Should I kill them?"
22 "Of course not!" Elisha replied. "Do we kill prisoners of war? Give them food and drink and send them home again to their master."
23 So the king made a great feast for them and then sent them home to their master. After that, the Aramean raiders stayed away from the land of Israel.
--Judges 6
And? :dontknow:
Go take a look at the Hebrew for yourself.
Deu 5:26 ForH3588 whoH4310 is there of allH3605 flesh,H1320 thatH834 hath heardH8085 the voiceH6963 of the livingH2416 GodH430 speakingH1696 out of the midstH4480 H8432 of the fire,H784 as weH3644 have, and lived?H2421
For who is there of all flesh, that has heard the voice of the living Gods [Chay Elohiym] speaking out of the middle of the fire, as we have, and lived?
Deuteronomy 5:26
"God" [Gods] [gods]
H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhıym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Deu 5:7 Thou shalt haveH1961 noneH3808 otherH312 godsH430 beforeH5921 H6440 me.
Thou shalt have no other [gods] elohiym before [me] My Faces.
Thou shalt have no other [gods] elohiym before [me] My Presences.
[before] "Me"
H6440
פּנים
pânıym
paw-neem'
Plural (but always used as a singular) of an unused noun (פּנה pâneh, paw-neh'; from 6437); the face (as the part that turns); used in a great variety of applications (literally and figuratively); also (with prepositional prefix) as a preposition (before, etc.): - + accept, a (be-) fore (-time), against, anger, X as (long as), at, + battle, + because (of), + beseech, countenance, edge, + employ, endure, + enquire, face, favour, fear of, for, forefront (-part), form (-er time, -ward), from, front, heaviness, X him (-self), + honourable, + impudent, + in, it, look [-eth] (-s), X me, + meet, X more than, mouth, of, off, (of) old (time), X on, open, + out of, over against, the partial, person, + please, presence, prospect, was purposed, by reason, of, + regard, right forth, + serve, X shewbread, sight, state, straight, + street, X thee, X them (-selves), through (+ -out), till, time (-s) past, (un-) to (-ward), + upon, upside (+ down), with (-in, + stand), X ye, X you.
Plural of H433; gods I mentioned this way back in the beginning, "plural" could 2 or 5 or 7, etc.
I believe if any thing it maybe 2.
pânıym Plural[/b] (but always used as a singular) the face, presence. [I believe singular is 1]
Can't find this one, "Thou shalt have no other [gods] elohiym before [me] My Faces."
Gen 3:8 And they hear the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of Jehovah God in the midst of the trees of the garden." (YLT)
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.(KJV)
So let's take a look at an incidence of the voice of the Living God [Gods] [Elohiym] speaking out of the midst [middle] of the fire.
One day Moses was tending the flock of his father-in-law, Jethro, the priest of Midian. He led the flock far into the wilderness and came to Sinai, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord [YHWH] appeared to him in a blazing fire from the middle of a bush. Moses stared in amazement. Though the bush was engulfed in flames, it didn't burn up. 3 "This is amazing," Moses said to himself. "Why isn't that bush burning up? I must go see it."
4 When the Lord [YHWH] saw Moses coming to take a closer look, God [Elohiym] called to him from the middle of the bush, "Moses! Moses!"
"Here I am!" Moses replied.
5 "Do not come any closer," the Lord warned. "Take off your sandals, for you are standing on holy ground. 6 I am the God [Elohiym] of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." When Moses heard this, he covered his face because he was afraid to look at God.
--Ex 3
"So let's take a look at an incidence of the voice of the Living God [Gods] [Elohiym] speaking out of the midst [middle] of the fire."
Just what are you attempting to show? Every verse you have posted has shown the power of the Lord God, and I believe everyone of them. The burning bush that gave voice, was the Lord, Jesus Christ through the glory and power (Spirit) of the Lord God.
Joh 5:37 `And the Father who sent me Himself hath testified concerning me; ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor His appearance have ye seen;
:dsunny: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
23 And he took them, and sent them over the brook, and sent over that he had.
24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God [Elohiym] face to face, and my life is preserved.
--Gen 32
"Peniel"
H6439
פּניאל פּנוּאל
pı̂ny'êl
pen-oo-ale', pen-ee-ale'
From H6437 and H410; face of God; Penuel or Peniel, a place East of Jordan; also (as Penuel) the name of two Israelites: - Peniel, Penuel.
Here 'the face of God' looks like a man. We see Hosea calls him the Angel. Would that be the angel of the LORD? Any member of the Chay Elohiym can be called "God."
No one has seen God the Father because he is spirit [although Jesus says if you've seen me, you've seen the Father], but the other two members of the trinity have been seen.
Yea, he wrestled with the Angel, and prevailed; he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spoke with us, Hos 12:4
This verse in Hosea equates 'the man' in Gen 32 who wrestled with Jacob and the angel of the LORD [the Angel] with each other and with God.
Hos 12:4 Yea, he is a prince unto the Messenger, And he overcometh by weeping, And he maketh supplication to Him, At Bethel He doth find him, And there He doth speak with us,
Gen 32:24 And Jacob is left alone, and one wrestleth with him till the ascending of the dawn;
Gen 32:25 and he seeth that he is not able for him, and he cometh against the hollow of his thigh, and the hollow of Jacob's thigh is disjointed in his wrestling with him;
Gen 32:26 and he saith, `Send me away, for the dawn hath ascended:' and he saith, `I send thee not away, except thou hast blessed me.'
Gen 32:27 And he saith unto him, `What is thy name?' and he saith, `Jacob.'
Gen 32:28 And he saith, `Thy name is no more called Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast been a prince with God and with men, and dost prevail.'
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asketh, and saith, `Declare, I pray thee, thy name;' and he saith, `Why is this, thou askest for My name?' and He blesseth him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob calleth the name of the place Peniel: for `I have seen God face unto face, and my life is delivered;'
Here have again the power/energy(spirit) of the Lord God at work. And most certainly Jacob would realize it was God who did this thing. Jacob believed and trusted the only God he knew so yes he would give God the credit.
I do not believe Jesus lied, do you?
Joh 5:37 `And the Father who sent me Himself hath testified concerning me; ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor His appearance have ye seen;
17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
--Ex 33
When the LORD is showing Moses His glory, all three members of the trinity are there.
The rock and the cleft in the rock is Jesus.
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 1 Cor 10:4
[Remember the song, Rock of Ages, cleft for me, Let me hide myself in thee]
The hand of YHWH covering Moses' eyes as He passes by is the Holy Spirit, the hand of God.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 14, 2013, 10:38:48 PM
Hos 12:4 Yea, he is a prince unto the Messenger, And he overcometh by weeping, And he maketh supplication to Him, At Bethel He doth find him, And there He doth speak with us,
Gen 32:24 And Jacob is left alone, and one wrestleth with him till the ascending of the dawn;
Gen 32:25 and he seeth that he is not able for him, and he cometh against the hollow of his thigh, and the hollow of Jacob's thigh is disjointed in his wrestling with him;
Gen 32:26 and he saith, `Send me away, for the dawn hath ascended:' and he saith, `I send thee not away, except thou hast blessed me.'
Gen 32:27 And he saith unto him, `What is thy name?' and he saith, `Jacob.'
Gen 32:28 And he saith, `Thy name is no more called Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast been a prince with God and with men, and dost prevail.'
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asketh, and saith, `Declare, I pray thee, thy name;' and he saith, `Why is this, thou askest for My name?' and He blesseth him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob calleth the name of the place Peniel: for `I have seen God face unto face, and my life is delivered;'
Here have again the power/energy(spirit) of the Lord God at work. And most certainly Jacob would realize it was God who did this thing. Jacob believed and trusted the only God he knew so yes he would give God the credit.
I do not believe Jesus lied, do you?
Joh 5:37 `And the Father who sent me Himself hath testified concerning me; ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor His appearance have ye seen;
The LORD and The Lord and the LORD God and God and the angel of the LORD are talking to men all through the Old Testament, Micah.
Why don't YOU tell me who that was doing the talking.
I'm waiting....
"The hand of YHWH covering Moses' eyes is the Holy Spirit, the hand of God."
I'll need some references for that one along with "Thou shalt have no other [gods] elohiym before [me] My Faces."
Yes, I understand through the Spirit that Jesus is the rock
"....and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen." So in reality he did not "see" the Lord God. Correct?
"The LORD and The Lord and the LORD God and God are talking to men all through the Old Testament, Micah. Yes. Amen!
Why don't YOU tell me who that was doing the talking.
I'm waiting.... "
Iv'e told you many times, but you won't hear it. :sigh:
Don't cop out now, Micah.
You told me no one has heard the Father's voice or seen his face.
So who were all these characters calling themselves LORD and LORD God and God and so forth speaking to men?
I'm waiting...
Quote from: Molly on June 14, 2013, 09:52:40 PM
So let's take a look at an incidence of the voice of the Living God [Gods] [Elohiym] speaking out of the midst [middle] of the fire.
One day Moses was tending the flock of his father-in-law, Jethro, the priest of Midian. He led the flock far into the wilderness and came to Sinai, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord [YHWH] appeared to him in a blazing fire from the middle of a bush. Moses stared in amazement. Though the bush was engulfed in flames, it didn't burn up. 3 "This is amazing," Moses said to himself. "Why isn't that bush burning up? I must go see it."
4 When the Lord [YHWH] saw Moses coming to take a closer look, God [Elohiym] called to him from the middle of the bush, "Moses! Moses!"
"Here I am!" Moses replied.
5 "Do not come any closer," the Lord warned. "Take off your sandals, for you are standing on holy ground. 6 I am the God [Elohiym] of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." When Moses heard this, he covered his face because he was afraid to look at God.
--Ex 3
Elohyim means "mighty ones" and is used to reference angels and men, judges, the gods of the heathen and the God of Israel. It is not exclusively a description of or name or reference to a triune God(not to say it cannot be interpreted that way in context- it is just not a good proof text). It occurs over
2500 times in the OT. It is not a worthy proof of either/any particular view of the nature of God, because it is only meaningful within the context of its use over the entire 2500 occurences- and who wants to do that much work :o) certainly not me- but I have checked enough of them to know(for myself) it is not a unique name of God.
And please, lets all keep this in the tone of a discussion- nobody is going to hell over this HAHAHAHAH ;o)
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 14, 2013, 03:52:48 PM
Molly I believe you like to qualify this word by Jesus Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
That Jesus was still a human and that explains how the Father is greater, perhaps there maybe something in that. Well how about this
Joh_14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh_16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Jesus had to depart before the another Comforter(Jesus was the first Comforter) would come, why?
Because Jesus had to die to become the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the only man to date that is truly born again of the Spirit(wind) and He did not become that Holy Spirit until He died and rose from the dead and He returned to His disciples as the Comforter....the Holy Spirit....Jesus Christ.
Here I dentifies Himself, Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me......" even the Spirit of truth, ...."
[/b][/color]
Miach that is bar far the best explanation of why Yashua had to die. Thank you this is very enlightening.
I personally don't see it that way. It reminds me of the Oneness Pentecostal/Apostolic doctrine, i.e., their literal version of "oneness". I don't believe the scriptures teach at all that Jesus had to die to "become the Holy Spirit".
Paul, speaking to believers said;
The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you. Rm. 8:11
In my limited understanding, I believe if any of us are not as yet born of the Spirit, then we're still "lost in our trespasses and sins" - and will still at some point need to be given the faith to believe on Jesus as our Savior.
I don't see it as scriptural that everyone is already saved/reconciled to God. Paul said "be you reconciled to God..whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved".
On the other hand, I also don't see it as scriptural that no one is yet saved/spiritually reborn. The apostles said "believe..confess, you will be saved..and then by grace you are saved through [the gift of] faith". I don't believe it's a message of death and only future hope. I believe it's a message of Life given, grace received - "Christ in you" - and then a looking toward our full inheritance - "the hope of glory". Saved now (spiritually reborn) then fully redeemed (given a spiritual body of immortality) at His coming.
To believers:
Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Quote from: jabcat on June 15, 2013, 03:25:48 AM
Paul, speaking to believers said;
The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you. Rm. 8:11
The Spirit of God raised Jesus from the dead.
God raised Jesus from the dead.
Therefore, the Spirit of God is God.
I heard this great story and would like to share it because I think it sums up the Bible.
A very rich man lived in a mansion in a city. In his mansion, he had a fabulous art gallery, replete with the most prized paintings in the world, Rembrandt, Monet, Picasso, etc. He also had a beloved young son who lived with him. The son would often go for walks around the city, meeting and talking to people. In his walks, the son met a beggar, and they became fast friends. The son would always stop to talk to the beggar whenever he was in that part of town. He told the beggar about his father's love for art and about the wonderful gallery in his home.
Time went by, and the son stopped visiting the beggar. The beggar finally inquired and found out the son had died. He was heartbroken that he had lost his young friend, and, knowing his father loved art, the beggar pooled all his pennies together and went out and bought some painting supplies. He then painted the best picture he could of his friend from memory. He went to the father's mansion and gave the picture to the guard at the gate, telling the guard about his deep friendship with the son and how he knew the father loved art. He hoped the father would find this picture of his son comforting.
More time went by, and the beggar heard the father had died and that his paintings were being auctioned off. He decided to go to the auction and see if the father had hung his picture in the gallery. Once again, he pooled all his pennies together and bought a used suit and went to the auction. All of the city's most famous socialites were there, drinking wine and scrutinizing the paintings with their spyglasses. There in the center of the gallery, the beggar was pleased to note his painting hanging in a place of prominence despite its simplicity.
Soon, it was time for the auction. The crowd gathered and grew hushed at the auctioneer's first announcement. 'There is a stipulation in the will,' he said,' that this painting must be auctioned first.' There was a disappointed moan from the crowd as he pulled out the beggar's simple painting of the owner's son. No one bid on it. Finally, the beggar reached into his pocket and pulled out all the change he had and happily bought the painting. Then, the excitement mounting, the auctioneer announced, 'There is another stipulation in the will. Whoever bought the first painting gets the whole gallery!'
Beautifull :o)
:thumbsup: :angelharp:
Quote from: Molly on June 14, 2013, 11:51:06 PM
Don't cop out now, Micah.
You told me no one has heard the Father's voice or seen his face.
So who were all these characters calling themselves LORD and LORD God and God and so forth speaking to men?
I'm waiting...
That would be Yashua/Salvation it says so here:
43 Jesus responded, "Stop criticizing me! 44 People cannot come to me unless the Father who sent me brings them to me. I will bring these people back to life on the last day. 45 The prophets wrote, 'God will teach everyone.' Those who do what they have learned from the Father come to me.
46 I'm saying that no one has seen the Father. Only the one who is from God has seen the Father.
The Mouth of God
When Jesus is in the wilderness, he tells Satan,
Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
--Mat 4:4
Does God have a mouth?
Jesus has been led into the wilderness by the Holy Spirit, who will be his constant companion during his ministry.
Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Mat 4:1
Together they will defeat Satan in the wilderness by quoting scripture.
Jesus himself is the Word contained in scripture, and the Holy Spirit is the finger of God who wrote the ten commandments on stone for Moses and will write them on our new hearts of flesh.
But what is the mouth of God?
1All the commandments which I command you this day shall you observe to do, that you may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD swore to your fathers. 2And you shall remember all the way which the LORD your God led you these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you, and to prove you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments, or no. 3And he humbled you, and suffered you to hunger, and fed you with manna, which you knew not, neither did your fathers know; that he might make you know that man does not live by bread only, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD does man live. Deut 8:3
Moses is speaking these words to the Israelites. Is Moses the mouth of God?
"These are the commands, decrees, and regulations that the Lord your God commanded me to teach you.
--Deut 6
Moses is standing in the gap between God and the Israelites, receiving the words from God and speaking them to the twelve tribes.
We see here in Deut 8:3, Moses reminds the Israelites that they were led through the wilderness by the LORD God,[ in the same way Jesus was led into the wilderness by the Holy Spirit.] It was the Holy Spirit leading them but all three members of the Godhead were with them in the wilderness. They were fed manna from heaven by Jesus, who, as the Word, is himself the bread from heaven.
Jesus replied, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry again. Whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. John 6:35
Moses, acting as priest, is hearing the words of God and speaking them to the Israelites. In this regard, I think we could call Moses 'the mouth of God' by proxy. He is acting in that capacity on behalf of God and men.
But let's look at that word in the Greek and see if it makes things clearer. It has some interesting meanings.
"mouth" [of God]
G4750
στόμα
stoma
stom'-a
Probably stregthened from a presumed derivative of the base of G5114; the mouth (as if a gash in the face); by implication language (and its relations); figuratively an opening (in the earth); specifically the front or edge (of a weapon): - edge, face, mouth.
The mouth of God speaks the words of God.
The mouth of God is the language of God, specifically the word of God, the Bible.
The mouth of God is the front edge of a weapon.
A weapon?
For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires. Heb 4:12
It is with this weapon, proceeding out of the Father, spoken by Jesus, and revealed to us by the Holy Spirit that all of God's enemies will be defeated.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
--Rev 19
"Mouth" doesn't always mean literal mouth, I think it refers more to God's will.
Quote from: Eduard on June 15, 2013, 12:02:13 PM
"Mouth" doesn't always mean literal mouth, I think it refers more to God's will.
That's interesting. Can you show some scripture for that, Eduard?
Or, could you elaborate?
Quote from: Eduard on June 15, 2013, 12:02:13 PM
"Mouth" doesn't always mean literal mouth, I think it refers more to God's will.
:dsunny: Amen my friend, Amen!
Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God
In times past God spoke through the prophets and various means but in these last days He has spoken to us through His Son who is the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representaion of His nature and all things hold together by the word of His power (Hebrews 1)
The word(logos) of God is sharper than any two edged sword to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit
Helmet of salvation, shield of faith.....sword of the spirit-the word of God
By faith we know that the worlds were framed by the word of God (And God said, Let there be light Genesis 1, the light of the world, the light that lighteth everyman who comes into the world)
Out of His mouth proceeds a sharp two edged sword and on His thigh the words (Logos) of God
Let me see if I can say it this way. You have a job to do, something that you want done. So you set out to do it, there is no one else so you go to work and get the job done.You labor and sweat until the job is finished, when it it's done you are proud of the job and people come by and see your work and praise you for it and ask who helped you. Of course your answer is no one I did it all myself it took a lot of sweat and hard work and energy, but just me. Do you suppose that the folks who seen your work and heard your testimony would go around witnessing that that the energy, sweat, and labor you put out was a seperate person or an entity all it's own? I don't believe so, just as the Lord
God when He wants a job done it's His power/energy that gets it done, no seperate person, no entity of it's own. The power/energy comes out from the Lord God. Yes, by God's Spirit/Holy Spirit. :dsunny:
King David knew Jesus and the Holy Spirit:
1 These are the last words of David:
"David, the son of Jesse, speaks—
David, the man who was raised up so high,
David, the man anointed by the God of Jacob,
David, the sweet psalmist of Israel.
2 "The Spirit of the Lord speaks through me;
his words are upon my tongue.
3 The God of Israel spoke.
The Rock of Israel [Jesus] said to me:
'The one who rules righteously,
who rules in the fear of God,
4 is like the light of morning at sunrise,
like a morning without clouds,
like the gleaming of the sun
on new grass after rain.'
--2 Sam 23
The trinity
1 Peter 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father [ONE], through the sanctifying work of the Spirit [TWO], for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood [THREE]: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
Molly - Micah
I truly appreciate you both; neither of you seems to be lukewarm (Rev. 3:15-16)
I am sincerely interested in learning why discussing the pros/cons of the "Trinity" is so important to you.
Many thanks to you two, eaglesway and all who have provided many Scripture references--among which were several that have helped me in connecting dots in my own ongoing study of the written word of God (Acts 17:11)
Quote from: AnnaI am sincerely interested in learning why discussing the pros/cons of the "Trinity" is so important to you.
Hi Anna, It is important to me because I am witnessing to my experience with God. And, because I feel we are coming on hard times and people need to know this when that happens.
And, both of those must be true because the Spirit will not let me away from this keyboard and keeps feeding me scripture after scripture even though I have lots of better things to do [like go to the beach]. :laughing7:
Hi Molly , I dont think many prefer the coined name "trinity " its to churchy
like rapture the snatching up and Hell being the grave
coined words seem to trigger many whom have come out of her [Babylon] and dont want to be mixing the wisdom of men and the Wisdom of God
you have helped in the past few days to show How much depth there is
in Gods Word , but as darkness and Light do not mix , so does the Light of God and the darkness of mens understanding do not work :girlheart: for me , many names and titles but all come from and out of ONE GOD the existing ONE and will go back into ONE GOD
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
El Shaddai(el shad-di')
All-Sufficient One, Lord God AlmightyUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament El Shaddai occurs 7 times. El Shaddai is first used in Gen 17:1.
Variant spellings: None
TWOT Reference:2333
Strong's Reference: 7706
El Shaddai in the Septuagint: theou saddai...God Shaddai; pantokratôr (for Shaddai)...the Almighty
Meaning and Derivation: El is another name that is translated as "God" and can be used in conjunction with other words to designate various aspects of God's character. Another word much like Shaddai, and from which many believe it derived, is shad meaning "breast" in Hebrew (some other scholars believe that the name is derived from an Akkadian word Šadu, meaning "mountain," suggesting strength and power). This refers to God completely nourishing, satisfying, and supplying His people with all their needs as a mother would her child. Connected with the word for God, El, this denotes a God who freely gives nourishment and blessing, He is our sustainer.
Further references of the name El Shaddai in the Old Testament: Gen 17:1; Gen 28:3; Gen 35:11; Gen 43:14; Gen 48:3
El Elyon(el el-yone')
The Most High GodUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament El Elyon occurs 28 times. It occurs 19 times in Psalms. El Elyon is first used in Gen 14:18.
Variant spellings: None
TWOT Reference: 1624g, 1624h
Strong's Reference: 5945
El Elyon in the Septuagint: ho theos ho hupsistos...the God most high
Meaning and Derivation: El is another name that is translated as "God" and can be used in conjunction with other words to designate various aspects of God's character. Elyon literally means "Most High" and is used both adjectivally and substantivally throughout the Old Testament. It expresses the extreme sovereignty and majesty of God and His highest preeminence. When the two words are combined...El Elyon ...it can be translated as "the most exalted God."(Psa 57:2)
Further references of the name El Elyon in the Old Testament: Gen 14:18; Gen 14:19; Gen 14:20; Gen 14:22; Psa 57:2; Psa 78:35 Adonai(ad-o-noy')
Lord, MasterUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament Adonai occurs 434 times. There are heavy uses of Adonai in Isaiah (e.g., Adonai Jehovah). It occurs 200 times in Ezekiel alone and appears 11 times in Daniel Chapter 9. Adonai is first used in Gen 15:2.
Variant spellings: None
TWOT Reference: 27b
Strong's Reference: 0136
Adonai in the Septuagint: kurios...Lord, Master
Meaning and Derivation: Adonai is the verbal parallel to Yahweh and Jehovah. Adonai is plural; the singular is adon. In reference to God the plural Adonai is used. When the singular adon is used, it usually refers to a human lord. Adon is used 215 times to refer to men. Occasionally in Scripture and predominantly in the Psalms, the singular adon is used to refer to God as well (cf. Exd 34:23). To avoid contravening the commandment "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain" (Exd 20:7), sometimes Adonai was used as a substitute for Yahweh (YHWH). Adonai can be translated literally as, "my lords' " (both plural and possessive).
Further references of the name Adonai in the Old Testament: Complete list available here.
Yahweh or Jehovah(yah-weh)Lord, JehovahUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament Yahweh occurs 6,519 times. This name is used more than any other name of God. Yahweh is first used in Gen 2:4.
Variant spellings: YHWH, Jehovah
TWOT Reference: 484a
Strong's Reference: 3068
Yahwehin the Septuagint: kurios...Lord, Masterdespotês...Lord, Master, denoting the omnipotence of God (TDNT), despot, absolute ruler
Meaning and Derivation: Yahweh is the promised name of God. This name of God which (by Jewish tradition) is too holy to voice, is actually spelled "YHWH" without vowels. YHWH is referred to as the Tetragrammaton (which simply means "the four letters"). YHWH comes from the Hebrew letters: Yud, Hay, Vav, Hay. While YHWH is first used in Genesis 2, God did not reveal Himself as YHWH until Exodus 3. The modern spelling as "Yahweh" includes vowels to assist in pronunciation. Many pronounce YHWH as "Yahweh" or "Jehovah." We no longer know for certain the exact pronunciation. During the third century A.D., the Jewish people stopped saying this name in fear of contravening the commandment "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain" (Exd 20:7). As a result of this, Adonai is occasionally a substitute for YHWH. The following compound names which start with "YHWH" have been shown using "Jehovah." This is due to the common usage of "Jehovah" in the English of these compound names in the early English translations of the Bible (e.g., the Geneva Bible, the King James Version, etc.).
Further references of the name Yahweh in the Old Testament: Complete list available here.
Jehovah Nissi(yeh-ho-vaw' nis-see')The Lord My Banner, The Lord My MiracleUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament Jehovah-Nissi occurs only once in Exd 17:15.
Variant spellings: Jehovah Nisi; Jehovahnissi
TWOT Reference: None
Strong's Reference: 3071
Jehovah Nissi in the Septuagint: kurios kataphugê mou...the Lord is my refuge
Meaning and Derivation: Jehovah is translated as "The Existing One" or "Lord." The chief meaning of Jehovah is derived from the Hebrew word Havah meaning "to be" or "to exist." It also suggests "to become" or specifically "to become known"...this denotes a God who reveals Himself unceasingly. Nes (nês), from which Nissi derived, means "banner" in Hebrew. In Exd 17:15, Moses, recognizing that the Lord was Israel's banner under which they defeated the Amalekites, builds an altar named Jehovah-Nissi (the Lord our Banner). Nes is sometimes translated as a pole with an insignia attached. In battle opposing nations would fly their own flag on a pole at each of their respective front lines. This was to give their soldiers a feeling of hope and a focal point. This is what God is to us: a banner of encouragement to give us hope and a focal point.
Further references of the name Jehovah Nissi in the Old Testament: Exd 17:15
Jehovah-Raah(yeh-ho-vaw' raw-aw')
The Lord My Shepherd use in the Bible: In the Old Testament Jehovah-Raah (The Lord my Shepherd) is used in Psalm 23.
Variant spellings: Jehovah Rohi; Jehovah Ro'eh
TWOT Reference: 2185, 2186
Strong's Reference: 7462
Jehovah-Raah in the Septuagint: kurios poimainei me...the Lord shepherds me
Meaning and Derivation: Jehovah is translated as "The Existing One" or "Lord." The chief meaning of Jehovah is derived from the Hebrew word Havah meaning "to be" or "to exist." It also suggests "to become" or specifically "to become known"...this denotes a God who reveals Himself unceasingly. Rô'eh from which Raah derived, means "shepherd" in Hebrew. A shepherd is one who feeds or leads his flock to pasture (Eze 34:11-15). An extend translation of this word, rea', is "friend" or "companion." This indicates the intimacy God desires between Himself and His people. When the two words are combined...Jehovah Raah...it can be translated as "The Lord my Friend."
Further references of the name Jehovah-Raah in the Old Testament: Gen 48:15; Gen 49:24; Psa 23:1; Psa 80:1
Jehovah-Rapha(yeh-ho-vaw' raw-faw')
The Lord That HealsUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament Jehovah-Rapha (The Lord that Heals) is used in Exd 15:26.
Variant spellings: Jehovah-Rophe; Jehovah Rophecha; Jehovah Raphah
TWOT Reference: 2196
Strong's Reference: 7495
Jehovah Rapha in the Septuagint: kurios ho iômenos se...the Lord your healer
Meaning and Derivation: Jehovah is translated as "The Existing One" or "Lord." The chief meaning of Jehovah is derived from the Hebrew word Havah meaning "to be" or "to exist." It also suggests "to become" or specifically "to become known" - this denotes a God who reveals Himself unceasingly. Rapha (râpâ') means "to restore", "to heal" or "to make healthful" in Hebrew. When the two words are combined...Jehovah Rapha...it can be translated as "Jehovah Who Heals." (cf. Jer 30:17; Jer 3:22; Isa 30:26; Isa 61:1; Psa 103:3). Jehovah is the Great Physician who heals the physical and emotional needs of His people.
Further references of the name Jehovah Rapha in the Old Testament: Exd 15:26
Jehovah Shammah(yeh-ho-vaw' shawm'-maw)
The Lord Is ThereUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament Jehovah Shammah occurs only once in Ezekiel 48:35.
Variant spellings: Jehovah Samma
TWOT Reference: None
Strong's Reference: 3074
Jehovah Shammah in the Septuagint: estai to onoma autês...the name thereof
Meaning and Derivation: Jehovah is translated as "The Existing One" or "Lord." The chief meaning of Jehovah is derived from the Hebrew word Havah meaning "to be" or "to exist." It also suggests "to become" or specifically "to become known" - this denotes a God who reveals Himself unceasingly. Shammah is derived from the Hebrew word sham, which can be translated as "there." Jehovah Shammah is a symbolic name for the earthly Jerusalem. The name indicates that God has not abandoned Jerusalem, leaving it in ruins, but that there will be a restoration.
Further references of the name Jehovah Shammah in the Old Testament: Eze 48:35
Return to Top Jehovah Tsidkenu(yeh-ho-vaw' tsid-kay'-noo)
The Lord Our RighteousnessUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament Jehovah Tsidkenu occurs 2 times. Jehovah Tsidkenu is first used in Jer 23:6.
Variant spellings: Jehovah Tzidkaynu; Jehovah Tsidqenuw
TWOT Reference: None
Strong's Reference: 3072
Jehovah Tsidkenu in the Septuagint: kuriou tou theou hêmôn elalêsen pros hêmas...the Lord our God spoke to us
Meaning and Derivation: Jehovah is translated as "The Existing One" or "Lord." The chief meaning of Jehovah is derived from the Hebrew word Havah meaning "to be" or "to exist." It also suggests "to become" or specifically "to become known" - this denotes a God who reveals Himself unceasingly. Tsedek (tseh'-dek), from which Tsidkenu derived, means "to be stiff," "to be straight," or "righteous" in Hebrew. When the two words are combined...Jehovah Tsidkenu...it can be translated as "The Lord Who is our Righteousness."
Further references of the name Jehovah Tsidkenu in the Old Testament: Jer 23:6; Jer 33:16
Jehovah Mekoddishkem(yeh-ho-vaw' M-qadash)
The Lord Who Sanctifies You, The Lord Who Makes HolyUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament Jehovah Mekoddishkem occurs 2 times. Jehovah Mekoddishkem is first used in Exd 31:13.
Variant spellings: Jehovah M'kaddesh
TWOT Reference: 1990
Strong's Reference: 6942
Jehovah Mekoddishkem in the Septuagint: kurios ho hagiazôn humas...the Lord that sanctifies you
Meaning and Derivation: Jehovah is translated as "The Existing One" or "Lord." The chief meaning of Jehovah is derived from the Hebrew word Havah meaning "to be" or "to exist." It also suggests "to become" or specifically "to become known"...this denotes a God who reveals Himself unceasingly. Mekoddishkem derives from the Hebrew word qâdash meaning "sanctify," "holy," or "dedicate." Sanctification is the separation of an object or person to the dedication of the Holy. When the two words are combined...Jehovah Mekoddishkem...it can be translated as "The Lord who sets you apart."
Further references of the name Jehovah Mekoddishkem in the Old Testament: Exd 31:13; Lev 20:8
El Olam(el o-lawm')
The Everlasting God, The God of Eternity, The God of the Universe, The God of Ancient DaysUse in the Bible: El Olam is first used in Gen 21:33.
Variant spellings: None
TWOT Reference: 1631a
Strong's Reference: 5769
El Olamin the Septuagint: [ho] theos [ho] aiônios...the everlasting God
Meaning and Derivation: El is another name that is translated as "God" and can be used in conjunction with other words to designate various aspects of God's character. Olam derives from the root word 'lm (which means "eternity"). Olam literally means "forever," "eternity," or "everlasting". When the two words are combined...El Olam...it can be translated as "The Eternal God."
Further references of the name El Olam in the Old Testament: Gen 21:33; Jer 10:10; Isa 26:4
Elohim(el-o-heem')
God, Judge, CreatorUse in the Bible: : In the Old Testament Elohim occurs over 2000 times. Elohim is first used in Gen 1:1.
Variant spellings: None
TWOT Reference: 93c
Strong's Reference: 0430
Elohim in the Septuagint: theos...the standard Greek word for god, "a transcendent being who exercises extraordinary control in human affairs or is responsible for bestowal of unusual benefits" (BDAG). It specifically refers to the monotheistic God of Israel.
Meaning and Derivation: Elohim is translated as "God." The derivation of the name Elohim is debatable to most scholars. Some believe it derived from 'êl which, in turn, originates from the root word, 'wl (which means "strong"). Others think that Elohim is derived from another two roots: 'lh (which means "god") in conjunction with 'elôah (which means "fear"). And still others presume that both 'êl and Elohim come from 'eloah.
Further references of the name Elohim in the Old Testament: Complete list available here.
Return to Top Qanna(kan-naw')
Jealous, ZealousUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament Qanna occurs 6 times. Qanna is first used in Exd 20:5.
Variant spellings: Kanna
TWOT Reference: 2038b
Strong's Reference: 7067
Qanna in the Septuagint: zêlôtês...jealous
Meaning and Derivation: Qanna is translated as "jealous," "zealous," or "envy." The fundamental meaning relates to a marriage relationship. God is depicted as Israel's husband; He is a jealous God, wanting all our praise for Himself and no one else. (cf. Exd 34:14)
Further references of the name Qanna in the Old Testament: Exd 20:5; Exd 34:14; Deu 4:24; Deu 5:9; Deu 6:15
Return to Top Jehovah Jireh(yeh-ho-vaw' yir-eh')
The Lord Will ProvideUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament Jehovah-Jireh occurs only once in Gen 22:14.
Variant spellings: None
TWOT Reference: None
Strong's Reference: 3070
Jehovah Jireh in the Septuagint: kurios eiden...the Lord has seen
Meaning and Derivation: Jehovah is translated as "The Existing One" or "Lord." The chief meaning of Jehovah is derived from the Hebrew word Havah meaning "to be" or "to exist." It also suggests "to become" or specifically "to become known" - this denotes a God who reveals Himself unceasingly. Jehovah-Jireh is a symbolic name given to Mount Moriah by Abraham to memorialize the intercession of God in the sacrifice of Isaac by providing a substitute for the imminent sacrifice of his son.
Further references of the name Jehovah Jireh in the Old Testament: Gen 22:14
Return to Top Jehovah-Shalom(yeh-ho-vaw' shaw-lome')
The Lord Is PeaceUse in the Bible: In the Old Testament Jehovah-Shalom occurs only once in Jdg 6:24.
Variant spellings: None
TWOT Reference: None
Strong's Reference: 3073
Jehovah-Shalom in the Septuagint: eirênê kuriou...peace of the Lord
Meaning and Derivation: Meaning and Derivation: Jehovah is translated as "The Existing One" or "Lord." The chief meaning of Jehovah is derived from the Hebrew word Havah meaning "to be" or "to exist." It also suggests "to become" or specifically "to become known"...this denotes a God who reveals Himself unceasingly. Shalom is a derivative of shâlêm (which means "be complete" or "sound") Shalom is translated as "peace" or "absence from strife." Jehovah-Shalom is the name of an altar built by Gideon in Ophrah.
Further references of the name Jehovah-Shalom in the Old Testament: Jdg 6:24
Return to Top Jehovah Sabaoth(yeh-ho-vaw' se ba'ôt)
The Lord of Hosts, The Lord of PowersUse in the Bible: Jehovah and Elohim occur with Sabaoth over 285 times. It is most frequently used in Jeremiah and Isaiah. Jehovah Sabaoth is first used in 1Sa 1:3.
Variant spellings: None
TWOT Reference: 1865a, 1865b
Strong's Reference: 6635
Jehovah Sabaoth in the Septuagint: kurios sabaôth...the Lord of hosts (sabaôth: Gr. transliteration of Heb. "hosts")
Meaning and Derivation: Jehovah is translated as "The Existing One" or "Lord." The chief meaning of Jehovah is derived from the Hebrew word Havah meaning "to be" or "to exist." It also suggests "to become" or specifically "to become known" - this denotes a God who reveals Himself unceasingly. Sabaoth (se bâ'ôt) means "armies" or "hosts." Jehovah Sabaoth can be translated as "The Lord of Armies" (1Sa 1:3). This name denotes His universal sovereignty over every army, both spiritual and earthly. The Lord of Hosts is the king of all heaven and earth. (Psa 24:9-10; Psa 84:3; Isa 6:5).
Further references of the name Jehovah Sabaoth in the Old Testament: 1Sa 1:11; 1Sa 17:45; 2Sa 6:18; 2Sa 7:27; 1Ki 19:14; 2Ki 3:14; 1Ch 11:9; Psa 24:10; Psa 48:8; Psa 80:4; Psa 80:19; Psa 84:3; Isa 1:24; Isa 3:15; Isa 5:16; Isa 6:5; Isa 9:19; Isa 10:26; Isa 14:22; Jer 9:15; Jer 48:1; Hsa 12:5; Amo 3:13; Mic 4:4; Nah 3:5; Hag 2:6; Zec 1:3; Mal 1:6; Hab 2:13; Zep 2:9
Spirit and Truth in simple terms and use
as I was posting this I saw Anna write :)
I just wanted also to say I saw some pretty awesome things come out though this thread and discussion
and its appreciated very much , God bless you all , each and every one of you :HeartThrob:
Thanks Molly for replying so quickly. I can see now why it's important for you to share your POV of the Trinity. It seems to me your experiences with God "as Three Persons" in your life's struggles brought you so much comfort that you want that same comfort, etc., for us as we approach hard times. I appreciate very much that you do not say that unless we believe in God as Three Persons that we will not be comforted.
Quote from: anna274 on June 15, 2013, 06:51:35 PM
Thanks Molly for replying so quickly. I can see now why it's important for you to share your POV of the Trinity. It seems to me your experiences with God "as Three Persons" in your life's struggles brought you so much comfort that you want that same comfort, etc., for us as we approach hard times. I appreciate very much that you do not say that unless we believe in God as Three Persons that we will not be comforted.
Anna , your so right and for me I dont mind hearing anyones faith , I know that NONE ! have all truth but God Himself
just beliving on His name is enough , according to scriptures
God knows I am learning and humbled by all the Knowledge of Him By Him as everyone shares
Love is the greatest thing and many have shown Love and kindness and patience that counts for alot :HeartThrob:
Quote from: anna274 on June 15, 2013, 06:51:35 PM
Thanks Molly for replying so quickly. I can see now why it's important for you to share your POV of the Trinity. It seems to me your experiences with God "as Three Persons" in your life's struggles brought you so much comfort that you want that same comfort, etc., for us as we approach hard times. I appreciate very much that you do not say that unless we believe in God as Three Persons that we will not be comforted.
No, I would never say that. The Holy Spirit was working mightily in my life long before I ever knew who he was. He's come through many trials and tribulations with me.
Many times I just recognized his work on my behalf in retrospect.
Whether you think the Holy Spirit is a person or a force, you can pray the Father to send him to you, or to send more. But, if one doesn't know what to ask for, how can they ask?
He wants us to live peaceful, or at least, empowered lives and the Holy Spirit is a large part of that. He is the power of God that is now available to us because of the cross.
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? Luke 11:13
Ok Look at this. The trinity in Psalm 110.
In Psalm 110, God the Father is talking to God the Son through the whole psalm. Jesus himself quoted from verse one of this psalm.
So whenever the Father says 'you,' he means 'you, Jesus.'
God the Father is saying to God the Son that God the Son will sit at his right hand.
We all know that God the Son sits at the right hand of the Father.
Then he says in verse 6 that God the Holy Spirit will stand at the right hand of God the Son [just as He stands at our right hand, too, btw].
Verses 5,6, and 7 are all about the Holy Spirit, the one standing on the right hand of God the Son, and going to war some day in the future against the enemies of God.
I will witness, too, that God the Holy Spirit stands on my right hand to protect me.
If that is not the Holy Spirit in verse 5, who is standing at the Son's right hand?
.
1 The LORD [God the Father] said to my Lord [God the Son],
"Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
until I humble your enemies,
making them a footstool under your feet."
2 The LORD will extend your powerful kingdom from Jerusalem;
you will rule over your enemies.
3 When you go to war,
your people will serve you willingly.
You are arrayed in holy garments,
and your strength will be renewed each day like the morning dew.
4 The LORD has taken an oath and will not break his vow:
"You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek."
5 The Lord [God the Holy Spirit] stands at your right hand to protect you.
He will strike down many kings when his anger erupts.
6 He will punish the nations
and fill their lands with corpses;
he will shatter heads over the whole earth.
7 But he himself will be refreshed from brooks along the way.
He will be victorious.
It occurred to me that there may be some confusion going on here. Some people who believe in the trinity concept may be thinking that other people who do not believe in it are denying the existence of one or more of the three components of the trinity. I do not think this is the case. Recently I saw this situation (not on this forum) where someone who didn't subscribe to the trinity concept was accused of denying the Christ (which was not so). I don't think anyone on this forum would deny either the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit - whether or not they subscribe to the trinity concept. Just sayin'. :2c:
I believe your,"just sayin" is very correct.
One more time....
Try this: There is ONE GOD. Jesus Christ came OUT FROM God and is called the "Son OF God." The Holy Spirit comes OUT FROM God and is called the "spirit OF God." But God has bestowed on Jesus ALL THAT HE IS AND ALL THAT HE HAS, hence Jesus also has this SAME SPIRIT and therefore there is the "spirit OF Christ" which is the SAME spirit OF God. They BOTH possess the SAME SPIRIT. And as they possess the SAME SPIRIT, they are ONE!
God promises believers the obtaining of this same spirit also. Hence WE TOO become ONE WITH CHRIST AND OUR FATHER! Furthermore, all of God's creatures will one day possess this same spirit and then God will be "All in ALL" (I Cor. 15;28)!!! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on June 16, 2013, 03:36:31 PM
Ok Look at this. The trinity in Psalm 110.
In Psalm 110, God the Father is talking to God the Son through the whole psalm. Jesus himself quoted from verse one of this psalm.
So whenever the Father says 'you,' he means 'you, Jesus.'
God the Father is saying to God the Son that God the Son will sit at his right hand.
We all know that God the Son sits at the right hand of the Father.
Then he says in verse 6 that God the Holy Spirit will stand at the right hand of God the Son [just as He stands at our right hand, too, btw].
Verses 5,6, and 7 are all about the Holy Spirit, the one standing on the right hand of God the Son, and going to war some day in the future against the enemies of God.
I will witness, too, that God the Holy Spirit stands on my right hand to protect me.
If that is not the Holy Spirit in verse 5, who is standing at the Son's right hand?
.
1 The LORD [God the Father] said to my Lord [God the Son],
"Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
until I humble your enemies,
making them a footstool under your feet."
2 The LORD will extend your powerful kingdom from Jerusalem;
you will rule over your enemies.
3 When you go to war,
your people will serve you willingly.
You are arrayed in holy garments,
and your strength will be renewed each day like the morning dew.
4 The LORD has taken an oath and will not break his vow:
"You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek."
5 The Lord [God the Holy Spirit] stands at your right hand to protect you.
He will strike down many kings when his anger erupts.
6 He will punish the nations
and fill their lands with corpses;
he will shatter heads over the whole earth.
7 But he himself will be refreshed from brooks along the way.
He will be victorious.
Actually it is the Lord(YHWH) says to my Lord(Adoni), Sit thou at my right hand. This is a poor proof text fro the Trinity. We kno what YHWH means. Adonai does not mean the same thing, it is a generic term for a ruler used through out the OT to refer to various kings. In this instance the Psalm could very honestly be interpeted to
God Almighty said to my King, Sit ...........
Quote from: EagleswayActually it is the Lord(YHWH) says to my Lord(Adoni), Sit thou at my right hand. This is a poor proof text fro the Trinity. We kno what YHWH means. Adonai does not mean the same thing, it is a generic term for a ruler used through out the OT to refer to various kings. In this instance the Psalm could very honestly be interpeted to
God Almighty said to my King, Sit ...........
What are you saying? That it's not about Jesus? Or that it doesn't prove the divinity of Jesus? Jesus uses verse one himself to prove the divinity of himself to the Jews because he is David's Lord. How can the son of David be David's Lord, he asks them. David calls Jesus 'my Lord' in the Psalm.
We know David calls Jesus 'adon.'
But I have and can prove the divinity of Jesus elsewhere. I offered this Psalm as proof that the Holy Spirit is standing at the right hand of Jesus, in heaven, as the third member of the trinity.
I don't want you to forget, dear brothers and sisters, about our ancestors in the wilderness long ago. All of them were guided by a cloud that moved ahead of them, and all of them walked through the sea on dry ground. 2 In the cloud and in the sea, all of them were baptized as followers of Moses. 3 All of them ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all of them drank the same spiritual water. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Yet God was not pleased with most of them, and their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
--1 Cor 10
In this passage, Paul clearly identifies the rock in the wilderness with Christ. He says the rock 'followed' them.
the spiritual rock that followed them
"followed"
G190
ακολουθέω
akoloutheō
ak-ol-oo-theh'-o
From G1 (as a particle of union) and κέλευθος keleuthos (a road); properly to be in the same way with, that is, to accompany (specifically as a disciple): - follow, reach.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life... Psa 23
Even though Christ was with them in the wilderness, they had only yet received the dry baptism of Moses, in the sea [across dry ground] and in the cloud [of witnesses].
The cross had not yet happened, and they had not yet received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the indwelt Spirit of God, although I believe the Holy Spirit was with them in the wilderness, in the form of
the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night, leading the way and protecting them.
I believe 'the Lord' in ex 13:21 is God the Holy Spirit because leading and protecting is his function.
20 The Israelites left Succoth and camped at Etham on the edge of the wilderness. 21 The Lord went ahead of them. He guided them during the day with a pillar of cloud, and he provided light at night with a pillar of fire. This allowed them to travel by day or by night. 22 And the Lord did not remove the pillar of cloud or pillar of fire from its place in front of the people.
[Ex 13]
Quote from: Molly on June 17, 2013, 12:52:17 AM
Quote from: EagleswayActually it is the Lord(YHWH) says to my Lord(Adoni), Sit thou at my right hand. This is a poor proof text fro the Trinity. We kno what YHWH means. Adonai does not mean the same thing, it is a generic term for a ruler used through out the OT to refer to various kings. In this instance the Psalm could very honestly be interpeted to
God Almighty said to my King, Sit ...........
What are you saying? That it's not about Jesus? Or that it doesn't prove the divinity of Jesus? Jesus uses verse one himself to prove the divinity of himself to the Jews because he is David's Lord. How can the son of David be David's Lord, he asks them. David calls Jesus 'my Lord' in the Psalm.
We know David calls Jesus 'adon.'
But I have and can prove the divinity of Jesus elsewhere. I offered this Psalm as proof that the Holy Spirit is standing at the right hand of Jesus, in heaven, as the third member of the trinity.
Here's the passage I was referring to.
How Can David's son Be David's Lord?41 While the Pharisees were still gathered, Jesus asked them, 42 "What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?"
They answered him, "David's."
43 He said to them, "Then how can David, guided by the Spirit, call him Lord? David says,
44 'The Lord said to my Lord,
"Take the highest position in heaven
until I put your enemies under your control."'
45 If David calls him Lord, how can he be his son?"
46 No one could answer him, and from that time on no one dared to ask him another question.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 16, 2013, 09:27:11 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 16, 2013, 03:36:31 PM
Ok Look at this. The trinity in Psalm 110.
In Psalm 110, God the Father is talking to God the Son through the whole psalm. Jesus himself quoted from verse one of this psalm.
So whenever the Father says 'you,' he means 'you, Jesus.'
God the Father is saying to God the Son that God the Son will sit at his right hand.
We all know that God the Son sits at the right hand of the Father.
Then he says in verse 6 that God the Holy Spirit will stand at the right hand of God the Son [just as He stands at our right hand, too, btw].
Verses 5,6, and 7 are all about the Holy Spirit, the one standing on the right hand of God the Son, and going to war some day in the future against the enemies of God.
I will witness, too, that God the Holy Spirit stands on my right hand to protect me.
If that is not the Holy Spirit in verse 5, who is standing at the Son's right hand?
.
1 The LORD [God the Father] said to my Lord [God the Son],
"Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
until I humble your enemies,
making them a footstool under your feet."
2 The LORD will extend your powerful kingdom from Jerusalem;
you will rule over your enemies.
3 When you go to war,
your people will serve you willingly.
You are arrayed in holy garments,
and your strength will be renewed each day like the morning dew.
4 The LORD has taken an oath and will not break his vow:
"You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek."
5 The Lord [God the Holy Spirit] stands at your right hand to protect you.
He will strike down many kings when his anger erupts.
6 He will punish the nations
and fill their lands with corpses;
he will shatter heads over the whole earth.
7 But he himself will be refreshed from brooks along the way.
He will be victorious.
Actually it is the Lord(YHWH) says to my Lord(Adoni), Sit thou at my right hand. This is a poor proof text fro the Trinity. We kno what YHWH means. Adonai does not mean the same thing, it is a generic term for a ruler used through out the OT to refer to various kings. In this instance the Psalm could very honestly be interpeted to
God Almighty said to my King, Sit ...........
IMO Pslam 110 speaks of God, and Jesus(imo) ad by reference, the Holy Spirit- but it is no proof text for a "Trinity" co-equal, co-eternal- co-substantial.
All I am saying is you can only read what is says, and then say, "I think it means this". It does not say anything about the Spirit directly. It only directly speaks of YHWH(the one true invisible God) and Adoni(the one who has seen YHWH and reveled Him from heaven).
Aything else is interpretation, which is fine- but the VERSES do ot say a word about a trinity, nor do they imply co-equality. RATHER, IMO they are a prophecy fulfilled in Eph 1:9-11; Romans 8, 1 Corinthians 15 and Revelation 5:13.
Hebrews 2 for instance, says, He was made a little while lower than the angels. Trintarians tout this as proving Jesus co-equal to the Father, but it does not say that- to me it simply proves the Son as Adoni- Lord of all, made so by the Fathers right hand, the Holy Spirit, containing the expression of the Father and the Son- was LORD in some degree over the angels before His incarnation.
For me, both Psalm 110 and Hebrews 2 PROVE the Father IS greater than the Son because everythig spoken of in both places is CLEARLY accomplished by the Father- which is confirmed among other places here........
1Co 15:22-28 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He(JESUS/ADONI) must reign until He(YHWH/FATHER) has put all His(Jesus') enemies under His(Jesus') feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE(YHWH) HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS(ADONI) FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection,"
it is evident(clear/obvious) that He(YHWH/FATHER) is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him(JESUS/ADONI). When all things are subjected to Him(JESUS), then the Son Himself also will be subjected to
the One(YHWH) who subjected all things to Him(JESUS), so that God may be all in all.
Now, I am not saying anyone else must read it as I do. I am simply saying that this is no affront to God or the Lord Jesus or to the Holy SPirit. It also needs no assumptions or trumped up terminology. The terminology itself CONTAINS NO HOLINESS. It is man's. Only the WORD OF GOD is holy and true and when we disagree about what it means we can only draw authority from WHAT IT ACTUALLY SAYS- not our re-interpretaions and made up terms that represent OUR IDEA OF WHAT IT SAYS.
That, IMO, is all the word "Trinity" is- a made up word of man that describes a particular interpretation of facts evidenced in the scriptures. The facts may be honestly, perhaps even correctly- interpreted another way and still permit a spirit of fellowship and accord when in discussion.
IMO, It is when our "religion" gets challenged that we get indignant and "up in arms" :o). That people get so up in arms when you talk about push button terms like Trinity, Hell, Heaven, Free Will, Predestination, Rapture etc..... it is just a clue that a whole lot of religion is involved in the discussion- frequently on all sides :o)
Quote from: Molly on June 17, 2013, 08:24:10 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 17, 2013, 12:52:17 AM
Quote from: EagleswayActually it is the Lord(YHWH) says to my Lord(Adoni), Sit thou at my right hand. This is a poor proof text fro the Trinity. We kno what YHWH means. Adonai does not mean the same thing, it is a generic term for a ruler used through out the OT to refer to various kings. In this instance the Psalm could very honestly be interpeted to
God Almighty said to my King, Sit ...........
What are you saying? That it's not about Jesus? Or that it doesn't prove the divinity of Jesus? Jesus uses verse one himself to prove the divinity of himself to the Jews because he is David's Lord. How can the son of David be David's Lord, he asks them. David calls Jesus 'my Lord' in the Psalm.
We know David calls Jesus 'adon.'
But I have and can prove the divinity of Jesus elsewhere. I offered this Psalm as proof that the Holy Spirit is standing at the right hand of Jesus, in heaven, as the third member of the trinity.
Here's the passage I was referring to.
How Can David's son Be David's Lord?
41 While the Pharisees were still gathered, Jesus asked them, 42 "What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?"
They answered him, "David's."
43 He said to them, "Then how can David, guided by the Spirit, call him Lord? David says,
44 'The Lord said to my Lord,
"Take the highest position in heaven
until I put your enemies under your control."'
45 If David calls him Lord, how can he be his son?"
46 No one could answer him, and from that time on no one dared to ask him another question.
Also Molly I would not want you to misunderstand. I believe Jesus was pre-existent outside of times dwelling with and within the Father. Just because I do not believe in the "Trinity" does not mean that we disagree on every aspect of the relationship between the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. I just don't believe Jesus is co-equal to the Father- as I have said before, and I dont know for sure- and don't really care, if Jesus is co-eternal with the Father IMO it isnt really even important to know that as an absolute.
The only reason I am posting is to raise questions because the "absolutes" about this doctrine and the teaching of it as if it was "direct from God's mouth absolute orthodoxy" was the cause of the martyrdom of many saints over a thousand years. God never kills someone for questioning Him about Himself so I have to assume that ONLY MAN was responsible.
Today, even as with UR, anyone who questions this "TRINITY" or worse, presents a REASONABLE ALTERNATIVE VIEW is labeld heretic and excluded.
However, MANY people who have pressed through the scriptures into UR also have pressed through the scriptures into differing views of the Godhead and the relationship between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Notice for instance, In John 1, it says. "In the beginning was the Word".....this does not say "Before the beginning"- it says, "In the beginning" OK, ALPHA- to me that says APLHA /LOGOS/ SEED /JESUS THE LAMB. It could mean He was eternally existent within God as that, or it could mean He was the first-born of all creation as the seed of all things, the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world- as Peter says, Foreknown from the foundation of the world but manifest in these last times for you.
It does
neither PRECLUDE Or PROVE the SON as co-eternal, but it does prove He is pre-existent, allong with the Sons own words, "Father restore unto me to the glory I had with thee before the world was".
Likewise, Pslam 110 neither PRECLUDES OR PROVES that the Son is co-equal to the Father- ad someone who reads, My Father is greater than I", or "All authority in heaven and earth is given to me by my Father" and just believes that means the Father really is greater and it really is the Father in Jesus doing the works has ACCEPTABLE REASON TO DO SO.
After having fellowshipped with Trinitarians and Bi nitarians and Modalists and Untiarians and shades of all the above- I have never understood how they could stand across the ailse from one another ad call each other "heretic" over such a multi-layered and beautifully faceted jewel of a mystery.
For me to put all the years of study and thought down that has led me to the still partially formatted views I have about this would require WAY TO MUCH SPACE, so I have only presnted SOME EVIDENCE FOR ALTERNATIVE VIEWS because I think THERE SHOULD BE alternative views to the Trinity- so that My God and Your God, The ONE TRUE INVISBLE GOD WHO ALOE DWELLS IN UNAPPROACHABLE LIGHT can retain a little of His mystery- rather than have that mystery slain by the flood of religious terms and certaintys and interpeted "orthodoxies".
And IMO if we err a mite or go out on an arc perhaps a little too far.....God is not in the least upset or concerned about it, because He never wanted to be packaged in systematic theology anyways :o)
Questioning the "Trinity" is not necessarily saying Jesus was just some great guy or denying His deity. It just involves some other views of the nature and dynamics of the relationship and I have found merit in all of those views and my own view incorporates aspects of them all.
I know what you mean. Every New England town has a Unitarian church across the village green from a Trinitarian church with cannons from WW1 in between.
Psalm 110 is a Messianic Psalm which is why Jesus quotes it to the Pharisees. They were expecting Messiah ben David, who would arrive and do what the Lord in that Psalm is doing--
take over the Nations by force.
Instead, they got Messiah ben Joseph, the suffering servant, and he didn't suit their desires, even though he is predicted in the same Bible.
Psalm 110 will happen at the end of this Age.
But, one thing it shows is a picture of three in heaven. Someone is standing on the right hand of Jesus, and he is also called Lord. If that is not the Holy Spirit, who is it? You don't need to do a lot of interpretation or deep thinking to arrive at a conclusion, imo, who else could it be?
This Psalm does not talk about them being co-equal although they are placed in co-equal positions.
But this does--
Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.--2 Phil 6
And, elsewhere, as well. I think the challenge is to hold as much scripture as possible in one's head when coming to
conclusions, because the Bible interprets itself.
That's why I post so much scripture--because I believe if we could just learn it all, we would know the truth.
Or at least be able to prove it.
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof....
--2 Timothy 3:5
Paul warned us that in the last days we would see godly people who deny the power of God.
What did he mean by that?
What is it exactly that these men are denying?
For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. 1 cor 4:20
"power"
G1411
δύναμις
dunamis
doo'-nam-is
From G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.
Dunamis--it's the word dynamite comes from, a force so powerful that it is explosive.
This, then IMO, is the power we are not to deny.
This [dunamis] power of God IMO, is the work of the Holy Spirit.
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere--in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." Acts 1:8
Is this power of God just an impersonal force? If so, how are we to know when and where to use it? Is it handed to us freely to use as we will?
How do we know what to do with it? Are we to be like Luke Skywalker, using 'the force' at our own discretion? Wouldn't that be like handing a two year old a loaded gun and setting him loose? Does this power come with a handbook in its use?
What does Jesus say?
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
--John 14:26
I just noticed this topic is under arguments against universal reconciliation.
Not sure why that is.
Just for the record: I'm arguing for the trinity, not against UR.
The two aren't even related as far as I can see.
Quote from: Molly on June 15, 2013, 05:05:59 PM
King David knew Jesus and the Holy Spirit:
1 These are the last words of David:
"David, the son of Jesse, speaks—
David, the man who was raised up so high,
David, the man anointed by the God of Jacob,
David, the sweet psalmist of Israel.
2 "The Spirit of the Lord speaks through me;
his words are upon my tongue.
3 The God of Israel spoke.
The Rock of Israel [Jesus] said to me:
'The one who rules righteously,
who rules in the fear of God,
4 is like the light of morning at sunrise,
like a morning without clouds,
like the gleaming of the sun
on new grass after rain.'
--2 Sam 23
The trinity
1 Peter 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father [ONE], through the sanctifying work of the Spirit [TWO], for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood [THREE]: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
\\
I dont think anyone here would argue against David, the prophet, foreseeing Messiah. This however has NOTHING to do with the Trinity. That there is the Father I think we all agree. That there is Jesus, I think we all agree, That there is the Holy Spirit-also identifeid in scripture as the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ- I think mostly all agree. The above scripture could be used as a proof txt for that.
WHETHER OR NOT THIS PROVES THE ORTHODOX TRINITY DOCTRINE, that THEY ARE thREE SEPERATE PERSONS AND AT THE SAME TIME ONE PERSON CO_EQUAL< CO_ETERNAL_ CO-SUbSTANTIAL,
This is an area about which the scripture shows us through a glass darkly, with room for various understandings.
Molly said, "Just for the record: I'm arguing for the trinity, not against UR."
Why argue at all? Why do we all seem to have this need to be right? IMO, someone else's spiritual development, knowledge and walk with God is not up to us or anything that we say.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
THE NEW COVENANT
25Then will I sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them. Eze 36
Ezekiel 11:19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.
Joel 2:29 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
Only Then--
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
15 For [the Spirit which] you have now received [is] not a spirit of slavery to put you once more in bondage to fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption [the Spirit producing sonship] in [the bliss of] which we cry, Abba (Father)! Father!
16 The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God.
17 And if we are [His] children, then we are [His] heirs also: heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ [sharing His inheritance with Him]; only we must share His suffering if we are to share His glory.
--Rom 8
God speaks to God, because only the Spirit of God can understand the things of God.
1 Cor 2:14
14 But people who don't have the Spirit can't receive these truths from the Spirit of God. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.
Quote from: ded2daworld on June 18, 2013, 08:03:02 AM
Molly said, "Just for the record: I'm arguing for the trinity, not against UR."
Why argue at all? Why do we all seem to have this need to be right? IMO, someone else's spiritual development, knowledge and walk with God is not up to us or anything that we say.
I used the word 'arguing' because the title of this thread is 'arguments against...'
I just wanted to make it clear I am not arguing against UR.
What I write is not my opinion, it is what I believe. I am witnessing to my beliefs.
There's a difference between opinion and belief. I have no power over anybody else and what they believe. I have no power to require them to conform to my beliefs.
I am just sharing what I believe. I can tell you why I disagree with someone over something. And, I can show you evidence. But, I can't do much more than that.
But, we're not discussing a new movie in here or a new best selling book. We are sharing what we believe and what we know to be true.
Even if we are all wrong.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 18, 2013, 07:54:36 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 15, 2013, 05:05:59 PM
King David knew Jesus and the Holy Spirit:
1 These are the last words of David:
"David, the son of Jesse, speaks—
David, the man who was raised up so high,
David, the man anointed by the God of Jacob,
David, the sweet psalmist of Israel.
2 "The Spirit of the Lord speaks through me;
his words are upon my tongue.
3 The God of Israel spoke.
The Rock of Israel [Jesus] said to me:
'The one who rules righteously,
who rules in the fear of God,
4 is like the light of morning at sunrise,
like a morning without clouds,
like the gleaming of the sun
on new grass after rain.'
--2 Sam 23
The trinity
1 Peter 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father [ONE], through the sanctifying work of the Spirit [TWO], for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood [THREE]: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
\\
I dont think anyone here would argue against David, the prophet, foreseeing Messiah. This however has NOTHING to do with the Trinity. That there is the Father I think we all agree. That there is Jesus, I think we all agree, That there is the Holy Spirit-also identifeid in scripture as the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ- I think mostly all agree. The above scripture could be used as a proof txt for that.
WHETHER OR NOT THIS PROVES THE ORTHODOX TRINITY DOCTRINE, that THEY ARE thREE SEPERATE PERSONS AND AT THE SAME TIME ONE PERSON CO_EQUAL< CO_ETERNAL_ CO-SUbSTANTIAL,
This is an area about which the scripture shows us through a glass darkly, with room for various understandings.
I'm showing you 43 pages of data points. King David says the Holy Spirit is putting words on his tongue. He is saying Jesus [whom he calls the God of Israel] is speaking to him. This denotes a very close personal relationship with his God.
This is just another data point in a circumstantial case, which it must remain unless one has direct experience of it.
2 "The Spirit of the Lord speaks through me;
his words are upon my tongue.
3 The God of Israel spoke.
The Rock of Israel [Jesus]
said to me:
Quote from: Molly on June 18, 2013, 10:05:52 AM
I'm showing you 43 pages of data points. King David says the Holy Spirit is putting words on his tongue. He is saying Jesus [who he calls the God of Israel] is speaking to him. This denotes a very close personal relationship with his God.
This is just another data point in a circumstantial case, which it must remain unless one has direct experience of it.
2 "The Spirit of the Lord speaks through me;
his words are upon my tongue.
3 The God of Israel spoke.
The Rock of Israel [Jesus] said to me:
Molly this is a perfect example of a generalization about your posts I am going to make. You see this as a proof for the trinity. This very same verse will be used by a modalist and a unitarian, or binitarian for that matter to promote their viewpoint. This verse could very well be saying that "the Rock" and "the Spirit" are the same. Many of the verses you've posted are this way. I haven't had time to answer each one, because as you've just said you've posted 43 pages. I just don't have the time to go through and do it. My point is you see these as trinity verses. Many don't, thats ok. But just a few posts ago you posted about scoffers denying the dunamis= people not believing the HS is a person. That does not compute. NObody is denying a Holy Spirit. Or the power thereof. Some are denying that the HS is a person, myself included, but that does NOT equal denying the HS. Please refrain from making these implications as this is the second or third time that you've done so. The other notable one was the JW label.
"If so, how are we to know when and where to use it? Is it handed to us freely to use as we will?
How do we know what to do with it? Are we to be like Luke Skywalker, using 'the force' at our own discretion? Wouldn't that be like handing a two year old a loaded gun and setting him loose? Does this power come with a handbook in its use?" Molly Post 424
"If so, how are we to know when and where to use it?" WE are not in charge of "it"...."it charges us.
" Is it handed to us freely to use as we will?" It's not "handed" out, it is given from above to be used for the Lord's Will.
"How do we know what to do with it?" Again it is not up to us. Mar 13:11 `And when they may lead you, delivering up, be not anxious beforehand what ye may speak, nor premeditate, but whatever may be given to you in that hour, that speak ye, for it is not ye who are speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
" Wouldn't that be like handing a two year old a loaded gun and setting him loose? "
Heb 5:12 for even owing to be teachers, because of the time, again ye have need that one teach you what are the elements of the beginning of the oracles of God, and ye have become having need of milk, and not of strong food,
Heb 5:13 for every one who is partaking of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness--for he is an infant,
Heb 5:14 and of perfect men is the strong food, who because of the use are having the senses exercised, unto the discernment both of good and of evil.
"Does this power come with a handbook in its use?" 2Co 3:3 For all can see that you are a letter of Christ entrusted to our care, and written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the ever-living God--and not on tablets of stone, but on human hearts as tablets. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 18, 2013, 04:47:02 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 18, 2013, 10:05:52 AM
I'm showing you 43 pages of data points. King David says the Holy Spirit is putting words on his tongue. He is saying Jesus [who he calls the God of Israel] is speaking to him. This denotes a very close personal relationship with his God.
This is just another data point in a circumstantial case, which it must remain unless one has direct experience of it.
2 "The Spirit of the Lord speaks through me;
his words are upon my tongue.
3 The God of Israel spoke.
The Rock of Israel [Jesus] said to me:
Molly this is a perfect example of a generalization about your posts I am going to make. You see this as a proof for the trinity. This very same verse will be used by a modalist and a unitarian, or binitarian for that matter to promote their viewpoint. This verse could very well be saying that "the Rock" and "the Spirit" are the same. Many of the verses you've posted are this way. I haven't had time to answer each one, because as you've just said you've posted 43 pages. I just don't have the time to go through and do it. My point is you see these as trinity verses. Many don't, thats ok. But just a few posts ago you posted about scoffers denying the dunamis= people not believing the HS is a person. That does not compute. NObody is denying a Holy Spirit. Or the power thereof. Some are denying that the HS is a person, myself included, but that does NOT equal denying the HS. Please refrain from making these implications as this is the second or third time that you've done so. The other notable one was the JW label.
:dsunny:
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 18, 2013, 04:47:02 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 18, 2013, 10:05:52 AM
I'm showing you 43 pages of data points. King David says the Holy Spirit is putting words on his tongue. He is saying Jesus [who he calls the God of Israel] is speaking to him. This denotes a very close personal relationship with his God.
This is just another data point in a circumstantial case, which it must remain unless one has direct experience of it.
2 "The Spirit of the Lord speaks through me;
his words are upon my tongue.
3 The God of Israel spoke.
The Rock of Israel [Jesus] said to me:
Molly this is a perfect example of a generalization about your posts I am going to make. You see this as a proof for the trinity. This very same verse will be used by a modalist and a unitarian, or binitarian for that matter to promote their viewpoint. This verse could very well be saying that "the Rock" and "the Spirit" are the same. Many of the verses you've posted are this way. I haven't had time to answer each one, because as you've just said you've posted 43 pages. I just don't have the time to go through and do it. My point is you see these as trinity verses. Many don't, thats ok. But just a few posts ago you posted about scoffers denying the dunamis= people not believing the HS is a person. That does not compute. NObody is denying a Holy Spirit. Or the power thereof. Some are denying that the HS is a person, myself included, but that does NOT equal denying the HS. Please refrain from making these implications as this is the second or third time that you've done so. The other notable one was the JW label.
No no no. That post you are referring to was mostly scripture, and it was
not talking about people denying the Holy Spirit. It was talking about denying the power of God which is imparted through the Holy Spirit and that this
power will be denied by some in the latter days. The Bible is saying this, not me. It was not meant to criticize anyone or accuse anyone of denying the Holy Spirit. It did not even say that. It was to draw attention to what the Bible says about the power imparted to Christians by and through the Holy Spirit. It is the Bible that says this power will be denied, not me.
The denial part was not even the main focus of the post. The main focus of the post was dunamis [dynamite] imparted to us by the HS. Why don't you talk about that?
I made no such implication as you are describing. Nor did I intend to make any such implication. I said very little myself in that post and actually could have said nothing at all, just posted the scripture. Forget what I say and just read the scripture. If you want to decide that King David is talking about one person in that scripture, that's fine with me. They are one, that's the whole point. But he's describing two different functions. The Spirit is giving him words to speak. And, the Rock is speaking to him.
Actually Davib may have been using a standard form of Hebrew literary expression, reinforcing the meaning by doubling it.
The God of Israel.........the Rock of Israel Certainly YHWH is the rock of Israel as well.
Molly you routinely insert meanings into scriptures as if they are the only way to see them when many of them are proof texts for those who are disagreeing with you but just see it a different way. There are many scriptures you dont include in the context of the discussion that also add to, and for others, change the picture for them.
To suggest that because someone does not accept the Trinity means they do not accept the power of the Holy Spirit is a similar kind of thing. I do not believe in the trinity. I have seen the power of the Holy Spirit move throughout my whole life(I am 59 and was filled with the Spirit at 24) I have seen healing and restoration, deliverance and revelation- among many people who are not trinitarians.
The 43 pages of YOUR INTERPRETATIONS of data points are organized and understood in some different ways by others.
The Trinity doctrine is not a key to overcoming in these last days- a deep intimate relationship with God through Jesus Christ in the power of the Spirit is, IMO and I know both Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians who are walking in the Spirit and the Word and seeking Him with their whole hearts.
Quote from: EWTo suggest that because someone does not accept the Trinity means they do not accept the power of the Holy Spirit is a similar kind of thing.
Where did I suggest that? Quote me.
QuoteThe Trinity doctrine is not a key to overcoming in these last days
Where did I say that? Quote me.
This study has greatly blessed me. I hope it has been a blessing to someone else out of the 11,000 hits this thread has had.
Quote from: Molly on June 17, 2013, 06:34:20 PM
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof....
--2 Timothy 3:5
Paul warned us that in the last days we would see godly people who deny the power of God.
What did he mean by that?
What is it exactly that these men are denying?
For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. 1 cor 4:20
"power"
G1411
δύναμις
dunamis
doo'-nam-is
From G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.
Dunamis--it's the word dynamite comes from, a force so powerful that it is explosive.
This, then IMO, is the power we are not to deny.
This [dunamis] power of God IMO, is the work of the Holy Spirit.
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere--in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." Acts 1:8
Is this power of God just an impersonal force? If so, how are we to know when and where to use it? Is it handed to us freely to use as we will?
How do we know what to do with it? Are we to be like Luke Skywalker, using 'the force' at our own discretion? Wouldn't that be like handing a two year old a loaded gun and setting him loose? Does this power come with a handbook in its use?
What does Jesus say?
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
--John 14:26
Molly here is the post in question. I have a hard time seeing how you aren't implying what I've stated. You compare and contrast HS as person and force right after the denying the power thereof. Maybe you were just short on time and lumped these 3 sections together. But to an observer you have given one concrete statement.
I just don't know what else to say. :dontknow:
The post is about the power of God that we are given and how do we know how to use it.
And, Jesus says--the Holy Spirit--he will teach you how to use it.
Actually Ded, this for me has nothing to do with being right. I have said several times in this thread, it doesnt matter to me if someone see the Trinitarian view or any of the other views as correct. The only essential thing a person needs to believe about Jesus, IMO, is that He is the Only Begotten of the Father and He died as a sacrifice for sin, was raised from the dead, and lives as Lord.
Anything more than that, made essential by a Trinitarian or a Modalist or a Binitarian or a Biblical Untiarian, is a violation of the priesthood of the believer- the Holy Spirit is our teacher- not man, and certainly not the men of the Nicean Convention.
This discussion for me is about three things. 1)It is about the freedom to understand something in different ways and still maintain a spirit of fellowship and mutual respect as disciples of Jesus 2)It is about requiring that statements made as fact be required to stand the test of the word in the whole topical context 3) and it is about ensuring that members and prospective members of the site who hav divergent views can see that their is an open forum for the discussion of their divergent views and that no one will dictate to them or evaluate them as difficient in Christ because they don't agree with a particular view on some non-essential doctrine. Especially IMO one such as the nature of the Godhead which I believe, God has purposely left shrouded in mystery.
Those 3 things are important to a disciples walk with God and their growth in the Body of Christ and in relationship to the whole Tabernacle of God- at least I think so.
The way in which we discuss our differences testifies to our maturity- or lack thereof ;o).
The servant of the Lord should not strive.....
The wisdom that is from abve is first pure, then peacable, then easily entreated....
As I said earlier- whether it is the Trinity or Modalism or the Law or Predestination or Free will.... the measure we get all up in arms when someone presents an opposing view to ours.... that is the measure of how much religion is working in us, as opposed to the work of the Spirit of truth, who is not upset or overly wrought up about Himself or how exactly we have Him defined, analyzed, and presented :LH:
He really just wants us to learn His ways and walk in one mind and one accord(the key t the release of His power)
For that to happen, doctrines like the Trinity need to take a lower place in relationship to the doctrine Jesus taught, "Love one another, that your joy may be full" :o)
Since coming to tent makers I personally have had a hard time distinguishing
the difference between a debate and a discussion.
I know see the importance of moderation and moderators.
I see now that I can with the Spirit, be passionate and a moderator.
I thought moderation was the opposite of passion.
Yes Daj..... I would say passion shows how intensely we feel, while moderation shows how deeply we love those who disagree with what we feel :o)
15 And also the Holy Spirit adds His testimony to us [in confirmation of this]. For having said,
16 This is the agreement (testament, covenant) that I will set up and conclude with them after those days, says the Lord: I will imprint My laws upon their hearts, and I will inscribe them on their minds (on their inmost thoughts and understanding),
17 He then goes on to say, And their sins and their lawbreaking I will remember no more.
--Heb 10 Amplified Bible
Can an 'it' be a second witness? Heb 10:15
New International Version (©2011)
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
New Living Translation (©2007)
And the Holy Spirit also testifies that this is so. For he says,
English Standard Version (©2001)
And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. For after He says:
International Standard Version (©2012)
The Holy Spirit also assures us of this, for he said:
NET Bible (©2006)
And the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us, for after saying,
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
But The Spirit of Holiness also testifies to us, who says:
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The Holy Spirit tells us the same thing:
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
The Holy Spirit also is a witness to us: for after this he had said before,
American King James Version
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
American Standard Version
And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to us; for after he hath said,
Douay-Rheims Bible
And the Holy Ghost also doth testify this to us. For after that he said:
Darby Bible Translation
And the Holy Spirit also bears us witness of it; for after what was said:
English Revised Version
And the Holy Ghost also beareth witness to us: for after he hath said,
Webster's Bible Translation
Of this the Holy Spirit also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Weymouth New Testament
And the Holy Spirit also gives us His testimony; for when He had said,
World English Bible
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us, for after saying,
Young's Literal Translation
and testify to us also doth the Holy Spirit, for after that He hath said before
The scriptures testify, the water and the blood testify, the stars are a witness.
But the Holy Spirit is called 'he' in just about every one of those Bibles.
As well as 'Lord,' and 'I'. The Holy Spirit is speaking in the first person as God.
The water and stars don't do that.
In the above verse there is no word for he in the greek it is inserted. In many other places the word also can be it. It may be a person, the question is, is it a separate person from God the Father that is co-equal etc. etc.
letting go and letting God do what** only He can do can be such a struggle... sometimes a day at the beach can be very productive...
**
change hearts and minds
I believe the Holy Spirit is the being of God. Manifest through the Son He is the Spirit of Christ. I just don't believ he is a co-equal third of a Trinity. I bet all of our actual perceptions o the Godhead are different in shades of overlap in some places and complete disagreement in others.
For instance, when Paul says Jesus has received the Holy Spirit without limit- What does that mean if the Holy Spirit is one third of a Trinity?
When it says God was p[leased to make "all the fulness dwell in Jesus"- what does that mean?
To a modalist it means just what it says- ALL OF GOD IS IN JESUS AND THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD- and I can hardly blame the modalist for reading it that way- even tho I disagree :o)
To a Binitarian Jesus can be co-equal and co-eternal or He can be a Son less than His Father and the first born of creation- or, to some Binitarians Jesus is also co-equal and co-eternal to the Father and the Holy Spirit is the onesss of the Father and the Son expressed and executed. How this is somehow stranger than the Trinity I cant really say. Because if you can believe the Trinity formula you can believe anything, I think- Nothing could be stranger to me.
To a biblical unitarian Jesus was "Foreknown from the foundation of the world but manifest in these last times for you"- they do not believe Jesus was born God at all, but rather a man, sinless by rights of a perfect seed in a virgin- and WHY NOT?
When they hear "So it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him" they agree with the Modalist.
But all of these believe Jesus was the only begotten son of God.
All of these believe in redemption by His blood.
Muslims do not believe Jesus was the Only Begotten.
JWs do not believe Jesus was the Only Begotten.
Mormons do not believ that Jesus was the Only Begotten.
This is where the rubber meets the road for me.
No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. This doesnt mean, by the way, just saying the words as some formula. It means confessing it out of faith- a witness from the heart.
Some people see the Holy Spirit as the wind- That doesnt necessarily mean they think anyone can access it like "the force". regardless whether they see it as Trinity or a Binity or a Unity they see it as the spirit of YHWH and or Yeshua and understand that the access is granted through the name of the Son of God and the cleansing power of His blood within the clay vessel that bears the precious treasure.
I believe the Father and the Son and the angels are all manifestations of the One true God who is spirit- and the light that lights very man that comes into the world is also the spirit of God as Paul said, "In Him we live and breathe and have our being."
Some think "the Holy Spirit" as we know it is a particular manifestation of the overall spirit of God only for believers but we know that no man comes to the Jesus except the Father draws them. How does He draw them? By the Spirit!
But Paul says if any man have not the Spirit of Christ that man is none of His. So we know not all men have the spirit. There is "the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience" and the Spirit by which we cry "Abba Father"!
It is all very murky really, quite convoluted and by no means clear IMO-
I completely fail to understand how folks can put their foot down so hard on any of the particular views expressed in the main systems they are in as if any of them was anywhere near complete or clear or totally sound :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on June 19, 2013, 04:23:05 AM
I believe the Holy Spirit is the being of God. Manifest through the Son He is the Spirit of Christ. I just don't believ he is a co-equal third of a Trinity. I bet all of our actual perceptions o the Godhead are different in shades of overlap in some places and complete disagreement in others.
For instance, when Paul says Jesus has received the Holy Spirit without limit- What does that mean if the Holy Spirit is one third of a Trinity?
When it says God was p[leased to make "all the fulness dwell in Jesus"- what does that mean?
To a modalist it means just what it says- ALL OF GOD IS IN JESUS AND THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD- and I can hardly blame the modalist for reading it that way- even tho I disagree :o)
To a Binitarian Jesus can be co-equal and co-eternal or He can be a Son less than His Father and the first born of creation- or, to some Binitarians Jesus is also co-equal and co-eternal to the Father and the Holy Spirit is the onesss of the Father and the Son expressed and executed. How this is somehow stranger than the Trinity I cant really say. Because if you can believe the Trinity formula you can believe anything, I think- Nothing could be stranger to me.
To a biblical unitarian Jesus was "Foreknown from the foundation of the world but manifest in these last times for you"- they do not believe Jesus was born God at all, but rather a man, sinless by rights of a perfect seed in a virgin- and WHY NOT?
When they hear "So it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him" they agree with the Modalist.
But all of these believe Jesus was the only begotten son of God.
All of these believe in redemption by His blood.
Muslims do not believe Jesus was the Only Begotten.
JWs do not believe Jesus was the Only Begotten.
Mormons do not believ that Jesus was the Only Begotten.
This is where the rubber meets the road for me.
No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. This doesnt mean, by the way, just saying the words as some formula. It means confessing it out of faith- a witness from the heart.
Some people see the Holy Spirit as the wind- That doesnt necessarily mean they think anyone can access it like "the force". regardless whether they see it as Trinity or a Binity or a Unity they see it as the spirit of YHWH and or Yeshua and understand that the access is granted through the name of the Son of God and the cleansing power of His blood within the clay vessel that bears the precious treasure.
I believe the Father and the Son and the angels are all manifestations of the One true God who is spirit- and the light that lights very man that comes into the world is also the spirit of God as Paul said, "In Him we live and breathe and have our being."
Some think "the Holy Spirit" as we know it is a particular manifestation of the overall spirit of God only for believers but we know that no man comes to the Jesus except the Father draws them. How does He draw them? By the Spirit!
But Paul says if any man have not the Spirit of Christ that man is none of His. So we know not all men have the spirit. There is "the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience" and the Spirit by which we cry "Abba Father"!
It is all very murky really, quite convoluted and by no means clear IMO-
I completely fail to understand how folks can put their foot down so hard on any of the particular views expressed in the main systems they are in as if any of them was anywhere near complete or clear or totally sound :o)
:iagree:
Sorry for not posting lately on this thread. This has been the one topic I have always wanted to debate about. If you go back to the first post on this thread you will see that I made a comment to another member here. I made that comment because I thought we were all of one mind. This has proven to me that even that even the select few that we are, we still don't agree on all aspects. That is why this is such an important topic to me because as I continue daily to search for the truth. Understanding how anyone can believe in the trinity theory has become even more difficult for me after reading every post on this thread. My parents believe in the trinity theory along with x-mas, easter, pre trib rapture theory, and most all of the other pagan doctrines slipped in while no one was looking. My older sister is a "pastor" for the youth group in her church and she also buys into all of the false doctrines of mainstream "christianity". What will these people say when Yahweh asks them why they followed the traditions of men ?
Quote from: anna274 on June 19, 2013, 03:37:35 AM
letting go and letting God do what** only He can do can be such a struggle... sometimes a day at the beach can be very productive...
**
change hearts and minds
LOL. Good advice. I'm like a dog with a bone. But, I want to show you something before I go, and this is just for your ears, between you and me, Anna. You remember this passage in Acts 5 where Peter says you lied to the Holy Spirit, You lied to God. And both people who lied died? Peter is filled with the Holy Spirit so when they lie to Peter, they lie to the Holy Spirit, and Peter says this is lying to God. He is equating the Spirit with God. Watch.
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart
to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart?
You have not lied to men but to God."5 Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. 6 And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.
7 Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter answered her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?"
She said, "Yes, for so much."
9 Then Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together
to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." 10 Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. 11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.
--Acts 5
"to test the Spirit of the Lord." And, what happens--they die. Where have we heard that before?
Isn't it reminiscent of this passage from Heb 3 where it recounts how the Israelites all tested the LORD in the desert and the ones that did all died in the wilderness. "You will never enter into my rest," he says. [my paraphrase.]
15 Then while it is [still] called Today,
if you would hear His voice and when you hear it, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion [in the desert, when the people provoked and irritated and embittered God against them].
16 For who were they who heard and yet were rebellious and
provoked [Him]? Was it not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17 And with whom was He irritated and provoked
and grieved for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose dismembered bodies were strewn and left in the desert?
18 And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who disobeyed [who had not listened to His word and who refused to be compliant or be persuaded]?
19
So we see that they were not able to enter [into His rest], because of their unwillingness to adhere to and trust in and rely on God [unbelief had shut them out].
--Heb 3
Let's listen to him say it himself:
10 But the whole community began to talk about stoning Joshua and Caleb. Then the glorious
presence of the Lord appeared to all the Israelites at the Tabernacle. 11 And the Lord said to Moses,
"How long will these people treat me with contempt? Will they never believe me,
even after all the miraculous signs I have done among them?
12 I will disown them and destroy them with a plague. Then I will make you into a nation greater and mightier than they are!"
--Numbers 14
and--after negotiating with Moses--
20 Then the Lord said, "I will pardon them as you have requested. 21 But as surely as I live, and as surely as the earth is filled with the Lord's glory,
22 not one of these people will ever enter that land. They have all seen my glorious presence and
the miraculous signs I performed both in Egypt and in the wilderness, but again and again
they have tested me by refusing to listen to my voice. 23 They will never even see the land I swore to give their ancestors. None of those who have treated me with contempt will ever see it. 24 But my servant Caleb has a different attitude than the others have. He has remained loyal to me, so I will bring him into the land he explored. His descendants will possess their full share of that land. 25 Now turn around, and don't go on toward the land where the Amalekites and Canaanites live. Tomorrow you must set out for the wilderness in the direction of the Red Sea."
--Numbers 14
So just something for you to consider, Anna, and I'm just talking to you, *I'm thinking* the Holy Spirit is this God we hear talking to Moses in Numbers 14, the God of the Old Testament that scares everyone to death, the one about whom everyone says there must be some mistake--he doesn't look anything like Jesus--but look what happens when Ananias and Saphira lie to him--they drop dead---and Jesus himself says to the Pharisees, You can say anything you want about me, but don't blaspheme the Big Guy, he won't forgive you for two aeons. [my paraphrase].
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 19, 2013, 04:39:56 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on June 19, 2013, 04:23:05 AM
I believe the Holy Spirit is the being of God. Manifest through the Son He is the Spirit of Christ. I just don't believ he is a co-equal third of a Trinity. I bet all of our actual perceptions o the Godhead are different in shades of overlap in some places and complete disagreement in others.
For instance, when Paul says Jesus has received the Holy Spirit without limit- What does that mean if the Holy Spirit is one third of a Trinity?
When it says God was p[leased to make "all the fulness dwell in Jesus"- what does that mean?
To a modalist it means just what it says- ALL OF GOD IS IN JESUS AND THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD- and I can hardly blame the modalist for reading it that way- even tho I disagree :o)
To a Binitarian Jesus can be co-equal and co-eternal or He can be a Son less than His Father and the first born of creation- or, to some Binitarians Jesus is also co-equal and co-eternal to the Father and the Holy Spirit is the onesss of the Father and the Son expressed and executed. How this is somehow stranger than the Trinity I cant really say. Because if you can believe the Trinity formula you can believe anything, I think- Nothing could be stranger to me.
To a biblical unitarian Jesus was "Foreknown from the foundation of the world but manifest in these last times for you"- they do not believe Jesus was born God at all, but rather a man, sinless by rights of a perfect seed in a virgin- and WHY NOT?
When they hear "So it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him" they agree with the Modalist.
But all of these believe Jesus was the only begotten son of God.
All of these believe in redemption by His blood.
Muslims do not believe Jesus was the Only Begotten.
JWs do not believe Jesus was the Only Begotten.
Mormons do not believ that Jesus was the Only Begotten.
This is where the rubber meets the road for me.
No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. This doesnt mean, by the way, just saying the words as some formula. It means confessing it out of faith- a witness from the heart.
Some people see the Holy Spirit as the wind- That doesnt necessarily mean they think anyone can access it like "the force". regardless whether they see it as Trinity or a Binity or a Unity they see it as the spirit of YHWH and or Yeshua and understand that the access is granted through the name of the Son of God and the cleansing power of His blood within the clay vessel that bears the precious treasure.
I believe the Father and the Son and the angels are all manifestations of the One true God who is spirit- and the light that lights very man that comes into the world is also the spirit of God as Paul said, "In Him we live and breathe and have our being."
Some think "the Holy Spirit" as we know it is a particular manifestation of the overall spirit of God only for believers but we know that no man comes to the Jesus except the Father draws them. How does He draw them? By the Spirit!
But Paul says if any man have not the Spirit of Christ that man is none of His. So we know not all men have the spirit. There is "the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience" and the Spirit by which we cry "Abba Father"!
It is all very murky really, quite convoluted and by no means clear IMO-
I completely fail to understand how folks can put their foot down so hard on any of the particular views expressed in the main systems they are in as if any of them was anywhere near complete or clear or totally sound :o)
:iagree:
I must agree with EW. My one problem is "trinity" [a theological theory of 3 persons in 1] not found once described in the Bible. And as mplsfitter539 stated "My parents believe in the trinity theory along with x-mas, easter, pre trib rapture theory, and most all of the other pagan doctrines slipped in while no one was looking. My older sister is a "pastor" for the youth group in her church and she also buys into all of the false doctrines of mainstream "christianity" Accept "... while no one was looking."
The Lord God certainly knew these things would come about, so He was looking. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on June 19, 2013, 04:59:38 AM
Quote from: anna274 on June 19, 2013, 03:37:35 AM
letting go and letting God do what** only He can do can be such a struggle... sometimes a day at the beach can be very productive...
**
change hearts and minds
LOL. Good advice. I'm like a dog with a bone. But, I want to show you something before I go, and this is just for your ears, between you and me, Anna. You remember this passage in Acts 5 where Peter says you lied to the Holy Spirit, You lied to God. And both people who lied died? Peter is filled with the Holy Spirit so when they lie to Peter, they lie to the Holy Spirit, and Peter says this is lying to God. He is equating the Spirit with God. Watch.
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
5 Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. 6 And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.
7 Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter answered her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?"
She said, "Yes, for so much."
9 Then Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." 10 Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. 11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.
--Acts 5
"to test the Spirit of the Lord." And, what happens--they die. Where have we heard that before?
Isn't it reminiscent of this passage from Heb 3 where it recounts how the Israelites all tested the LORD in the desert and the ones that did all died in the wilderness. "You will never enter into my rest," he says. [my paraphrase.]
15 Then while it is [still] called Today, if you would hear His voice and when you hear it, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion [in the desert, when the people provoked and irritated and embittered God against them].
16 For who were they who heard and yet were rebellious and provoked [Him]? Was it not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17 And with whom was He irritated and provoked and grieved for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose dismembered bodies were strewn and left in the desert?
18 And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who disobeyed [who had not listened to His word and who refused to be compliant or be persuaded]?
19 So we see that they were not able to enter [into His rest], because of their unwillingness to adhere to and trust in and rely on God [unbelief had shut them out].
--Heb 3
Let's listen to him say it himself:
10 But the whole community began to talk about stoning Joshua and Caleb. Then the glorious presence of the Lord appeared to all the Israelites at the Tabernacle. 11 And the Lord said to Moses, "How long will these people treat me with contempt? Will they never believe me, even after all the miraculous signs I have done among them? 12 I will disown them and destroy them with a plague. Then I will make you into a nation greater and mightier than they are!"
--Numbers 14
and--after negotiating with Moses--
20 Then the Lord said, "I will pardon them as you have requested. 21 But as surely as I live, and as surely as the earth is filled with the Lord's glory, 22 not one of these people will ever enter that land. They have all seen my glorious presence and the miraculous signs I performed both in Egypt and in the wilderness, but again and again they have tested me by refusing to listen to my voice. 23 They will never even see the land I swore to give their ancestors. None of those who have treated me with contempt will ever see it. 24 But my servant Caleb has a different attitude than the others have. He has remained loyal to me, so I will bring him into the land he explored. His descendants will possess their full share of that land. 25 Now turn around, and don't go on toward the land where the Amalekites and Canaanites live. Tomorrow you must set out for the wilderness in the direction of the Red Sea."
--Numbers 14
So just something for you to consider, Anna, and I'm just talking to you, *I'm thinking* the Holy Spirit is this God we hear talking to Moses in Numbers 14, the God of the Old Testament that scares everyone to death, the one about whom everyone says there must be some mistake--he doesn't look anything like Jesus--but look what happens when Ananias and Saphira lie to him--they drop dead---and Jesus himself says to the Pharisees, You can say anything you want about me, but don't blaspheme the Big Guy, he won't forgive you for two aeons. [my paraphrase].
Sorry to intrude on your private conversation with Anna :o) I believe the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of God. Therefore to lie to the the Holy Spirit is lying to the Lord whether one believes the Holy Spirit is a third co-equal, co-eternal part of a "Trinity", or not. To lie to an angel, as a representative of God is also lying to the Lord. To lie to Peter who was standing as the messenger of the Lord, is also lying to the Holy Spirit, and thus, lying to God.......IMO, none of this establishes the orthodox Trinity doctrine.
I agree John /EW :thumbsup: Same way [BELIEVE for the works sake ] came as FORM examples of a dove or cloud always the
TRUE WITNESS Believe thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me
, he does the works.
Jhn 14:11 Believe me that
I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for
the very works' sake. QuoteSorry to intrude on your private conversation with Anna :o) I believe the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of God. Therefore to lie to the the Holy Spirit is lying to the Lord whether one believes the Holy Spirit is a third co-equal, co-eternal part of a "Trinity", or not. To lie to an angel, as a representative of God is also lying to the Lord. To lie to Peter who was standing as the messenger of the Lord, is also lying to the Holy Spirit, and thus, lying to God.......IMO, none of this establishes the orthodox Trinity doctrine.
Jhn 13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receives whomsoever I send receives me;
and he that receives me receives him that sent me. :HeartThrob:
EW and rosered :thumbsup: :dsunny:
Quote from: EagleswaySorry to intrude on your private conversation with Anna :o) I believe the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of God. Therefore to lie to the the Holy Spirit is lying to the Lord whether one believes the Holy Spirit is a third co-equal, co-eternal part of a "Trinity", or not. To lie to an angel, as a representative of God is also lying to the Lord. To lie to Peter who was standing as the messenger of the Lord, is also lying to the Holy Spirit, and thus, lying to God.......IMO, none of this establishes the orthodox Trinity doctrine.
First of all, Peter does not say, You lied to a representative of God. Peter said,
You lied... to God.That's why I posted the text so you could see that. So why would you put it through a filter and then quote it back to me as something other than what it is?
This is what I don't understand. The text is clear. Why not read it? If the text says some will deny the power [dunamis] of God, how could anyone come back to me and say, You are accusing us of denying the Holy Spirit? No I wasn't. And, the text wasn't, either. The power [dunamis] given to us by the Holy Spirit is NOT the Holy Spirit . In fact, neither I nor the text was accusing anyone of anything.
If we could just be a little more rigorous in reading the text, it would be so helpful to the discussion. :cloud9:
PS How does your representative of God theory work regarding Jesus saying, Say what you like to/about me, but don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit?
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Luke 12:10
Oh My Molly
Peter was one whom the Lord
breathed upon and recived the Holy Ghost /Spirit when Jesus returned to them that power was in him/ witness
to remit or retain sins ! all of John 20
Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.
Jhn 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them [his] hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Jhn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.
Quote from: Molly on June 20, 2013, 02:00:34 AM
Quote from: EagleswaySorry to intrude on your private conversation with Anna :o) I believe the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of God. Therefore to lie to the the Holy Spirit is lying to the Lord whether one believes the Holy Spirit is a third co-equal, co-eternal part of a "Trinity", or not. To lie to an angel, as a representative of God is also lying to the Lord. To lie to Peter who was standing as the messenger of the Lord, is also lying to the Holy Spirit, and thus, lying to God.......IMO, none of this establishes the orthodox Trinity doctrine.
First of all, Peter does not say, You lied to a representative of God. Peter said, You lied... to God.
That's why I posted the text so you could see that. So why would you put it through a filter and then quote it back to me as something other than what it is?
This is what I don't understand. The text is clear. Why not read it? If the text says some will deny the power [dunamis] of God, how could anyone come back to me and say, You are accusing us of denying the Holy Spirit? No I wasn't. And, the text wasn't, either. The power [dunamis] given to us by the Holy Spirit is NOT the Holy Spirit . In fact, neither I nor the text was accusing anyone of anything.
If we could just be a little more rigorous in reading the text, it would be so helpful to the discussion. :cloud9:
PS How does your representative of God theory work regarding Jesus saying, Say what you like to/about me, but don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit?
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Luke 12:10
Annanias and Saphira lied to Peter, Peter was the representative of God, the Holy Spirit was in everyone who was in the whole church. Their lives were taken because of there presumption..... remember Paul said, " I have decided in the presence of God and His holy angels to deliver such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit can be saved in the day of the Lord"
Peter also said, "It seemed good unto us, and unto the Holy Spirit and unto whole assembly (regarding baptising Cornelias' house. Let me ask you Molly, did this include God- or was God not included because He was not specifically mentioned? Isnt that a little ridiculous?
I said Peter was a representative of God and the Holy Spirit aa manifestation of God, even as Jesus is a manifestation of God.
But you hav come to Mt Zion the city of the living God and to the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God the judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant and to the sprinkled blood that speaks better than Able. See to it you do not refuse Him who is speaking.
Who is that? God. Who is He speaking through? All of the above! I hav said I believe the Holy Spirit is the being of God- so where is the offense? I see none. I just dont believe the Holy Spirit is one third of some man made Trinity.
Wherever two or more of you gather in my name there I am also..... I am in the Father and the Father is in me and I am in you!
And you all as living stones are being built into a tabernacle of God in the spirit.
For He is the radiance of the Fathers glory and the express image of His nature and all things hold together by the power of His word.
For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of His cross.
Jesus is the chief cornerstone, the Only Begotten Son, the Holy Spirit is the medium of the ALL IN ALL that God is becoming, expanding like a fountain of living water, first through Jesus, then into the body of Christ, then into the whole world.
There is no need to limit this vision to this Trinity formula- nor is there any sense in it, IMO. As long as the Logos allows it, we may disagree and hopefully when we see His face we will get it :laugh:
A couple of hours at my "beach" considering the "Trinity" brought to my mind and heart, one of my most favorite hymns:
I KNOW WHOM I HAVE BELIEVED Whittle, 1883
I know not why GOD'S wondrous grace
To me He hath made known,
Nor why, unworthy, CHRIST IN LOVE :HeartThrob:
Redeemed me for HIS own.
Refrain
But I know whom I have believed,
And am persuaded that HE is able
To keep that which I've committed
Unto HIM against that day.
I know not how this saving faith
To me HE did impart,
Nor how believing in HIS WORD
Wrought peace within my heart.
I know not how the SPIRIT moves,
Convincing us of sin,
Revealing JESUS through the WORD,
Creating faith in HIM.
I know not what of good or ill
May be reserved for me,
Of weary ways or golden days,
Before HIS face I see.
I know not when my LORD may come
At night or noonday fair
Nor if I walk the vale with HIM
Or meet HIM in the air.
BUT I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that HE is able to guard what I have entrusted to HIM for that day. 2 Tim 1:12
Quote from: eaglesway on June 20, 2013, 03:13:53 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 20, 2013, 02:00:34 AM
Quote from: EagleswaySorry to intrude on your private conversation with Anna :o) I believe the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of God. Therefore to lie to the the Holy Spirit is lying to the Lord whether one believes the Holy Spirit is a third co-equal, co-eternal part of a "Trinity", or not. To lie to an angel, as a representative of God is also lying to the Lord. To lie to Peter who was standing as the messenger of the Lord, is also lying to the Holy Spirit, and thus, lying to God.......IMO, none of this establishes the orthodox Trinity doctrine.
First of all, Peter does not say, You lied to a representative of God. Peter said, You lied... to God.
That's why I posted the text so you could see that. So why would you put it through a filter and then quote it back to me as something other than what it is?
This is what I don't understand. The text is clear. Why not read it? If the text says some will deny the power [dunamis] of God, how could anyone come back to me and say, You are accusing us of denying the Holy Spirit? No I wasn't. And, the text wasn't, either. The power [dunamis] given to us by the Holy Spirit is NOT the Holy Spirit . In fact, neither I nor the text was accusing anyone of anything.
If we could just be a little more rigorous in reading the text, it would be so helpful to the discussion. :cloud9:
PS How does your representative of God theory work regarding Jesus saying, Say what you like to/about me, but don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit?
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Luke 12:10
Annanias and Saphira lied to Peter, Peter was the representative of God, the Holy Spirit was in everyone who was in the whole church. Their lives were taken because of there presumption..... remember Paul said, " I have decided in the presence of God and His holy angels to deliver such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit can be saved in the day of the Lord"
Peter also said, "It seemed good unto us, and unto the Holy Spirit and unto whole assembly (regarding baptising Cornelias' house. Let me ask you Molly, did this include God- or was God not included because He was not specifically mentioned? Isnt that a little ridiculous?
I said Peter was a representative of God and the Holy Spirit aa manifestation of God, even as Jesus is a manifestation of God.
But you hav come to Mt Zion the city of the living God and to the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God the judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant and to the sprinkled blood that speaks better than Able. See to it you do not refuse Him who is speaking.
Who is that? God. Who is He speaking through? All of the above! I hav said I believe the Holy Spirit is the being of God- so where is the offense? I see none. I just dont believe the Holy Spirit is one third of some man made Trinity.
Wherever two or more of you gather in my name there I am also..... I am in the Father and the Father is in me and I am in you!
And you all as living stones are being built into a tabernacle of God in the spirit.
For He is the radiance of the Fathers glory and the express image of His nature and all things hold together by the power of His word.
For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of His cross.
Jesus is the chief cornerstone, the Only Begotten Son, the Holy Spirit is the medium of the ALL IN ALL that God is becoming, expanding like a fountain of living water, first through Jesus, then into the body of Christ, then into the whole world.
There is no need to limit this vision to this Trinity formula- nor is there any sense in it, IMO. As long as the Logos allows it, we may disagree and hopefully when we see His face we will get it :laugh:
Ok, if we could slow down. I want to be very specific. Forget about the trinity for a moment. Let's look at the text.
Peter says to Ananias;
3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart
to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart?
You have not lied to men but to God."Peter is saying, You have lied to the Holy Spirit [therefore] you have lied to God.
Who is Ananias talking to? He's talking to Peter. Is Peter God? No, of course not.
Then, what does Peter mean by this. We know it is something important because Ananias drops dead.
What do we know about Peter? He is filled with the Holy Spirit. Yes, Rosered, the resurrected Christ himself has breathed on Peter and said, Receive ye the Holy Spirit.
You and I have the indwelt Holy Spirit. Do people drop dead when they lie to us? No. But, Peter was so full of the Holy Spirit that his shadow healed people.
IMO, Peter has so much of the Holy Spirit that lying to Peter is lying to God.
He is equating the Holy Spirit with God which he is carrying as a full vessel.
I asked you a question which you didn't answer. If you can't answer it, just say so. That's ok.
But, my question, which I'll make more specific is, why are people dropping dead when they lie to Peter who is carrying the fullness of the Holy Spirit and they don't drop dead when they do and say all manner of awful things to Jesus?
If you can't answer that I will try to answer it.
But, in the meantime, please note that Peter says lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God.
unless, of course, you think Peter is God which I don't think you do.
Well, its easy to say, lets slow down and forget about the Trinity for a minute. Realise Molly, that I havent been making a bunch of doctrinal statements and absolutes, I have just been questioning the rock hard absolute of the Trinity doctrine- and pointing out that there are othe valid perspectives on a lot of the scriptures you use as proof texts. Your usual response is to say nothing regarding what anyone else puts forth and issue anothe "data point" form your own perspective- and that is entirely ok. Of course, you are entitled to your own point of view. I just think you go to far in representing it as THE POINT OF VIEW. So, I already, if you had really read it at all, answered your question in my last post.
Let me ask you a rhetorical question.
Did Jesus kill Annaias and Saphira? Did God the Fther? Or, was it the Holy Spirit? When Peter says to Saphira, "Now the same hands that are dragging your husbands feet out the door are about to drag you out the door", was that a prophetic word? Was he acting as God's representative? Was it, "Whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven"? Did the Father or Jesus or the Holy Spirit whisper in Peters heart that this was about to happen? Was Peter so "full of the Spirit" THAT WHERE THE DIVIDING LINE IS WOULD BE HARD TO DEFINE?
Thats what I think.
You are all about hard fast definitions. I just dont think God is that way. I love that He leaves the edges murky so people cant tie the truth up in knots around boxes.
"Oh you, you are out of the box, I am going to tie you up in knots" :o)
I agree that lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. I just dont believe in the Trinity. One has nothing to do with the other and I am beginning to wonder if you know what the Trinity, as the doctrine is taught in its orthodox form, is. You obviously are not listening to what I am saying.
I believe the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are manifestations of God. I just dont think they are a co-equal Trinity. I think Jesus serves the Father and the Spirit serves them both. I do think they are co-substantial, but really, I don't think it matters much what I think. You are, as you said, "Like a dog with a bone".
Annanias and Saphira died because they were "inside" the Hebrews 12 tabernacle. They died because they lied in the presence of God. The presence of God inhabits the tabernacle of God by His Spirit. They were standing on holy ground with impure motives in the presence of God, His Holy angels, and the Great Assembly.
It wasnt just because Peter was so full of the Holy Spirit, tho he certainly was. The WHOLE PLACE WAS SATURATED WITH LIVING WATER.
What does this have to do with the orthodox Trinity doctrine? Nothing as far as I can see.
Jesus was set as the "chief cornerstone" of the temple when He was raised from the dead and enthroned in the heavens. Then YHWH began at that point making all His enemies a footstool for His feet. When every knee has bowed and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Adoni(not YHWH)- Jesus will give up His Lordship because all rule power and authority will have been done away with because YHWH, the One who subjected all things to Adoni Iesous is ALL IN ALL. That is all the definition I need :o)
Thats the I AM being ALL IN ALL. You can define it anyway you want to. I dont care- REALLY. Some of my dearest friends sincerely disagree with me on this, but we dont beat it to death when we visit one another :o)
You say you've already answered my question. I don't see the answer in either of your posts. If you are answering my question as to why it's ok to lie to Jesus but not to Peter, I'm not seeing it.
To answer your rhetorical question, I don't think Peter had anything to do with killing them. I don't think Peter was about killing people for lying or for anything else. Peter knew he was carrying enough of the Holy Spirit that lying to him was lying to God, because the Holy Spirit is God.
Lying to God in his holy presence is obviously a dangerous thing to do.
That is what Peter says. I don't have to read anything into that.
It's in the text in a very simple form.
Now I find that very interesting and pretty frightening.
The statistics show that most people lie about 4 times a day.
Are you willing to say that lying inside a church or a Heb 12 tabernacle or to a man of God is an immediate death sentence?
People would be dropping dead all over the place then, wouldn't they?
What this has to do with the trinity doctrine is that it proves the Holy Spirit is God.
That is unequivocal.
I am listening to what you are saying and I'm trying to understand what you are saying. You say a 'manifestation of God' but not co-equal. That does not make sense to me. Either you are God or you're not. Can you be a little bit pregnant? And, I don't want to put words in your mouth. But, I think you are saying that because they will no longer have a job to do several ages from now, they will be stripped of their godlike authority? Then they will cease to be a manifestation of God and become something else? It just doesn't make sense to me.
You say Jesus is not YHWH. So now I understand that. Of course, I believe that Jesus is YHWH. I believe Jesus is God.
If Jesus is not God, who cares if he died or not? What difference does it make? I'm not God and if I die it won't make any difference to the world.
I find the trinity doctrine a very simple way to explain what is going on. I like simple. I also appreciate the deep mysteries of God. But, I want to know what foundation I am standing on, or if I'm standing on thin air.
I keep telling people I do not come out of a church background. I was baptized as a baby. I was born from above in a hotel room thousands of miles from home with a Gideon Bible and the Holy Spirit--the Word of God and the Spirit saved me.
But, I find it unfortunate that some think that something I believe to be true, the trinity, is a pagan doctrine. First of all, there is no basis for that. Mathew 28:19 is present in the earliest existing church writings, hundreds of years before Constantine. It was not made up by Constantine. Second of all, it says baptize 'in the name'--singular--meaning they all have the same name, and that name, in its memorial form is YHWH.
To me, Jesus is Lord [kurios] means he is the YHWH of the Old Testament.
To me, the Holy Spirit is God, means he is the YHWH of the Old Testament.
To me, that's not 'a manifestation of God,' that's the real thing. This is the mystery the trinity attempts to describe.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:19
IMO the Holy Spirit is more like a hologram of YHVH. It is the exact representation of YHVH without actually being Him. YHVH uses the Holy Spirit as His representative. Peter and Yahshua were both His representatives in the same way. They were not YHVH himself but a representative of Him.
IMO, the bible is clear that the "Father is spirit and those that worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth."
So the Father of us all is spirit. Is there any question that he is also Holy?
Logic would tell us that the Father IS Holy Spirit. Since being God, He is also omnipresent, it is just a literary
device for the Bible to say, God sent His Spirit to do such and such.
Besides, it is also clear Mary was pregnant by the Holy Spirit. The result was the SON. Every Son has a Father and since Jesus refers to God as his Father and the Holy spirit is his Fther and I previously showed the Father is Holy and a Spirit... :Peace2: :2c:
Quote from: ded2daworld on June 20, 2013, 03:43:20 PM
IMO, the bible is clear that the "Father is spirit and those that worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth."
So the Father of us all is spirit. Is there any question that he is also Holy?
Logic would tell us that the Father IS Holy Spirit. Since being God, He is also omnipresent, it is just a literary
device for the Bible to say, God sent His Spirit to do such and such.
Besides, it is also clear Mary was pregnant by the Holy Spirit. The result was the SON. Every Son has a Father and since Jesus refers to God as his Father and the Holy spirit is his Fther and I previously showed the Father is Holy and a Spirit... :Peace2: :2c:
Clear concise amen amen
So Father equals Holy Spirit?
And the Son is what? Something other?
So are there two God persons--Holy Spirit and Father? Or two in one? Or one that looks like two?
But if the Son is other, why does it matter--to me or to God-- that he died on the cross?
"We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, 'This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.' We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain." 2 Peter 1:16-18
"Father, glorify your name!' Then a voice came from heaven, 'I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.' The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. Jesus said, 'This voice was for your benefit, not mine.'" John 12:28-30
Quote from: ded2daworld on June 20, 2013, 03:43:20 PM
IMO, the bible is clear that the "Father is spirit and those that worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth."
So the Father of us all is spirit. Is there any question that he is also Holy?
Logic would tell us that the Father IS Holy Spirit. Since being God, He is also omnipresent, it is just a literary
device for the Bible to say, God sent His Spirit to do such and such.
Besides, it is also clear Mary was pregnant by the Holy Spirit. The result was the SON. Every Son has a Father and since Jesus refers to God as his Father and the Holy spirit is his Fther and I previously showed the Father is Holy and a Spirit... :Peace2: :2c:
Where is it stated that Jesus is the son of the holy spirit?
Luk 1:35 And the messenger answering said to her, `
The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and
the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also
the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God;
"I find the trinity doctrine a very simple way to explain what is going on." (Molly)
Yes, a doctrine created by men would explain it, in the earthy realm.
"But, I find it unfortunate that some think that something I believe to be true, the trinity, is a pagan doctrine. First of all, there is no basis for that."(Molly)
"Doctrine of the Trinity" By Dr. Ed DeVries, President of the School of Biblical & Theological Studies. His first paragraph makes the following statements:
"Since the word Trinity IS NOT FOUND ANYWHERE IN THE RECEIVED TEXT or in its offspring (the Authorized Version and other biblical translations derived from the received text), many argue that the doctrine of the Trinity is NOT A BIBLICAL ONE. However, when a person comes to understand the THEORY that is embodied in the terminology they can NOT HELP BUT FIND PROOF OF THE TRINITY THROUGHOUT THE BIBLE. The doctrine of the Trinity is believed by ALL Christian groups. Some groups profess to be Christian and DO NOT believe in the Trinity, however, NONE OF THESE GROUPS ARE TRULY CHRISTIAN..."[/u]
Quote from: Molly on June 20, 2013, 11:33:32 AM
You say you've already answered my question. I don't see the answer in either of your posts. If you are answering my question as to why it's ok to lie to Jesus but not to Peter, I'm not seeing it.
To answer your rhetorical question, I don't think Peter had anything to do with killing them. I don't think Peter was about killing people for lying or for anything else. Peter knew he was carrying enough of the Holy Spirit that lying to him was lying to God, because the Holy Spirit is God.
Lying to God in his holy presence is obviously a dangerous thing to do.
That is what Peter says. I don't have to read anything into that.
It's in the text in a very simple form.
Now I find that very interesting and pretty frightening.
The statistics show that most people lie about 4 times a day.
Are you willing to say that lying inside a church or a Heb 12 tabernacle or to a man of God is an immediate death sentence?
People would be dropping dead all over the place then, wouldn't they?
What this has to do with the trinity doctrine is that it proves the Holy Spirit is God.
That is unequivocal.
I am listening to what you are saying and I'm trying to understand what you are saying. You say a 'manifestation of God' but not co-equal. That does not make sense to me. Either you are God or you're not. Can you be a little bit pregnant? And, I don't want to put words in your mouth. But, I think you are saying that because they will no longer have a job to do several ages from now, they will be stripped of their godlike authority? Then they will cease to be a manifestation of God and become something else? It just doesn't make sense to me.
You say Jesus is not YHWH. So now I understand that. Of course, I believe that Jesus is YHWH. I believe Jesus is God.
If Jesus is not God, who cares if he died or not? What difference does it make? I'm not God and if I die it won't make any difference to the world.
I find the trinity doctrine a very simple way to explain what is going on. I like simple. I also appreciate the deep mysteries of God. But, I want to know what foundation I am standing on, or if I'm standing on thin air.
I keep telling people I do not come out of a church background. I was baptized as a baby. I was born from above in a hotel room thousands of miles from home with a Gideon Bible and the Holy Spirit--the Word of God and the Spirit saved me.
But, I find it unfortunate that some think that something I believe to be true, the trinity, is a pagan doctrine. First of all, there is no basis for that. Mathew 28:19 is present in the earliest existing church writings, hundreds of years before Constantine. It was not made up by Constantine. Second of all, it says baptize 'in the name'--singular--meaning they all have the same name, and that name, in its memorial form is YHWH.
To me, Jesus is Lord [kurios] means he is the YHWH of the Old Testament.
To me, the Holy Spirit is God, means he is the YHWH of the Old Testament.
To me, that's not 'a manifestation of God,' that's the real thing. This is the mystery the trinity attempts to describe.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:19
1) The manifestation of God is God in my view. It is just not a third person fully co-equal to the Father.
2) "If Jesus is not God who cares if He died?" Well We are not forgiven because God died. We are forgiven because a man lived a sinless life by faith, and then died when he didnt have too, thus paying our penalty- the spotless Lamb. Even most Trinitarians understand this. In fact it is a cornerstone of the doctrine that while on earth Jesus forsook whatever Godhead He possessed in order to serve...."for this reason God also highly exalted Him and gave Him the name above every name" Phil 2:9-11
More and more I wonder if you have studied the systematic theology of the Orthodox Trinitarian doctrine and are really familiar with what you believe.
At any rate tho, again, indirectly and perhaps ignorantly, you challenge the love and fatih of everyone who is non-trinitarian in their Lord and Savior Jesus.
Jesus is God, imo- He is not co-equal to the Father. He is the seed through which God created all things and the Alpha/Omega into whom all things are being gathered.
If however, as some believe, He is the Son of God and God by birth or creation- their understanding of His death as a propitiation for their sins is no less valid than yours or anyone elses.
John wrote, The Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory as the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
From any view, it was Jesus humanity, and the beauty of His perfect love within it while in the flesh, that is the glory which lends power to the cross. If as a Trinitarian you believe that HE was before and is again after fully equal to the Fathr, this does not DIMINISH THE FAITH OF OTHERS WITH ANOTHER VIEW.
They still see the glory of the only begotten, full of grace and truth, and as He was lifted up for them their hearts still overflow with praise and adoration for the Lamb of God who died for their sins and was raised for their healing and restoration.
To diminish their Messiah by your insistence on promoting your view of the godhead is, IMO, and surely to them, offensive.
You say you have listened and understood what I have been saying. I don't think that is the case. I don,t think you, as a "dog with a bone", can so much as peek outside your own paradigm to consider whether their is a possibility of an alternate view.
A man named Hislop wrote a book called the Two Babylons
www.biblebelievrs.com/babylon/ (http://www.biblebelievrs.com/babylon/)
I dont support ALL of his conclusions but his research into the origins of the trinity doctrine is pretty interesting. It should be one part of the background work of anyone who is really interested in an honest study on the godhead
I believe that God the Father has a Spirit It is called the Spirit of God .
Does Holy Spirit the third person of the God head have a Spirit?
I believe
I have a spirit that is mine, it is in me.
The Holy Spirit nurtures my spirit.
Jesus has a spirit.
God has a spirit.
The flesh of Jesus was killed although perfect.
God is Spirit, Jesus is Spirit .
When my flesh is killed and I recognize that it is dead and I see that I am
Spirit the idea of all in all is as simple as one plus one equals one.
Quote from: eagleswayMore and more I wonder if you have studied the systematic theology of the Orthodox Trinitarian doctrine and are really familiar with what you believe.
No, of course I haven't. I don't let men tell me what to believe. Otherwise, I'd probably be an atheist because I am surrounded by them. All I know about any trinity theology is God in three persons, blessed trinity. It is what I see all over the Bible. That's why I believe it.
QuoteAt any rate tho, again, indirectly and perhaps ignorantly, you challenge the love and fatih of everyone who is non-trinitarian in their Lord and Savior Jesus
I am not doing this. This is coming out of your own head. It's called projection. Or something else maybe. But it's not coming from me. Anything you say is not going to shake my faith or threaten me in any way. My faith is coming from God not from men. I may be surprised, or even saddened, but why would I challenge anyone else's faith and love? That is none of my business.
If I ask you questions, I'm not challenging you. I'm trying to figure out what you are thinking about it.
This is what I believe:
12Why, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. 14Do all things without murmurings and disputings: [Phil 2:12]
QuoteJesus is God, imo- He is not co-equal to the Father
I have posted a verse that says he is equal to God. Maybe I should post it again? I'm not sure why you wouldn't believe it.
QuoteFrom any view, it was Jesus humanity, and the beauty of His perfect love within it while in the flesh, that is the glory which lends power to the cross. If as a Trinitarian you believe that HE was before and is again after fully equal to the Fathr, this does not DIMINISH THE FAITH OF OTHERS WITH ANOTHER VIEW.
Where did I say it diminished the faith of others? Quote me.
Quote
To diminish their Messiah by your insistence on promoting your view of the godhead is, IMO, and surely to them, offensive.
My insistence on 'promoting' my view? This is a thread on the trinity. I believe in the trinity. What would you suggest I do, promote someone else's view?
You and others have been calling me a pagan and hostage to doctrines of men since this thread began. Why is that ok? Especially when its based on faulty evidence. Have you heard me complaining?
I accept we are having a discussion from both points of view.
QuoteYou say you have listened and understood what I have been saying. I don't think that is the case. I don,t think you, as a "dog with a bone", can so much as peek outside your own paradigm to consider whether their is a possibility of an alternate view.
I understand some of what you are saying now, but not completely. If you want to talk about it we can. If you don't want to talk about it we don't have to.
This thread [and this site] has blessed, blessed, blessed me. More than you'll ever know.
Quote
2) "If Jesus is not God who cares if He died?" Well We are not forgiven because God died. We are forgiven because a man lived a sinless life by faith, and then died when he didnt have too, thus paying our penalty- the spotless Lamb. Even most Trinitarians understand this. In fact it is a cornerstone of the doctrine that while on earth Jesus forsook whatever Godhead He possessed in order to serve...."for this reason God also highly exalted Him and gave Him the name above every name" Phil 2:9-11
I have something to say about this. But, now is probably not the time to do it.
I've enjoyed a lot of what's been posted, from various posters.
Quote from: Molly on June 20, 2013, 10:46:40 PM
calling me a pagan and hostage to doctrines of men since this thread began.
If I've missed it, and as a general statement - anything approaching this - from anyone,
to anyone - in a direct, personal manner, needs to be redirected to more general (not personal) discussion of the issues/doctrines.
-----------------
Along with that, I saw a comment earlier from a member about "wanting to debate this". Reminder - this is not a debate forum. It's a discussion forum - where we maintain none of us have every single aspect of the truth cornered, and we share as we understand to the best of our ability.
And as has been shared - "Jesus Christ, Him crucified and risen again", is the essential doctrine. Blessings.
Quote from: eaglesway
More and more I wonder if you have studied the systematic theology of the Orthodox Trinitarian doctrine and are really familiar with what you believe.
"No, of course I haven't. I don't let men tell me what to believe. Otherwise, I'd probably be an atheist because I am surrounded by them. All I know about any trinity theology is God in three persons, blessed trinity. It is what I see all over the Bible. That's why I believe it." (Molly)
"All I know about any trinity theology is God in three persons, blessed trinity. It is what I see all over the Bible. That's why I believe it."
Where in and through out the Bible do you find any statements [to what you believe] of a "trinity" of three persons, blessed trinity? I personally have searched my Bible and find no evidence of such a set of words. I have also found no verse where the Holy Spirit is called a person. When I read man's teaching on the subjected, it is chock full of such theories and words. Should you find such evidence, please show me where. I mean no offence. If you got "God in three persons, blessed trinity"
from your Bible it should not be a difficult task. :HeartThrob:
So is Jesus the Son of the Fathe or the Son of the"holy Spirit? Did we forget Clossians the first chapter? Do trees have hands to clap --- forgetting the personification factor?
I firmly believe that God is Spirit, the Holy Spirit that emanates throughout the Universe and through which He works. Yeshua was the Image to manifest the Father, the holy Spiriit, and came to this world to make Him known.
Paul is guilty of forgetting the "third person" in his salutaions
:dsunny:
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with all of you". -- 2 Corinthians 13:14
"communion"
G2842
κοινωνία
koinōnia
koy-nohn-ee'-ah
From G2844; partnership, that is, (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction: - (to) communicate (-ation), communion, (contri-), distribution, fellowship.
Quote from: ded2daworld on June 20, 2013, 03:43:20 PM
IMO, the bible is clear that the "Father is spirit and those that worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth."
So the Father of us all is spirit. Is there any question that he is also Holy?
Logic would tell us that the Father IS Holy Spirit. Since being God, He is also omnipresent, it is just a literary
device for the Bible to say, God sent His Spirit to do such and such.
Besides, it is also clear Mary was pregnant by the Holy Spirit. The result was the SON. Every Son has a Father and since Jesus refers to God as his Father and the Holy spirit is his Fther and I previously showed the Father is Holy and a Spirit... :Peace2: :2c:
Seems quite reasonable to me, with that said, I just might retire :o)
2Co 13:14 the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, is with you all! Amen.
Yes, Amen I thank the Lord for that fellowship, all of us are grateful. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: eaglesway on June 21, 2013, 01:32:24 AM
Quote from: ded2daworld on June 20, 2013, 03:43:20 PM
IMO, the bible is clear that the "Father is spirit and those that worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth."
So the Father of us all is spirit. Is there any question that he is also Holy?
Logic would tell us that the Father IS Holy Spirit. Since being God, He is also omnipresent, it is just a literary
device for the Bible to say, God sent His Spirit to do such and such.
Besides, it is also clear Mary was pregnant by the Holy Spirit. The result was the SON. Every Son has a Father and since Jesus refers to God as his Father and the Holy spirit is his Fther and I previously showed the Father is Holy and a Spirit... :Peace2: :2c:
Seems quite reasonable to me, with that said, I just might retire :o)
Huh?
Quote from: jabcat on June 20, 2013, 11:11:59 PM
I've enjoyed a lot of what's been posted, from various posters.
Quote from: Molly on June 20, 2013, 10:46:40 PM
calling me a pagan and hostage to doctrines of men since this thread began.
Along with that, I saw a comment earlier from a member about "wanting to debate this". Reminder - this is not a debate forum. It's a discussion forum - where we maintain none of us have every single aspect of the truth cornered, and we share as we understand to the best of our ability.
Sorry for this slip of the keyboard, what I meant to say was that I have always wanted to discuss this topic. I really wasn't looking for an argument, in fact I was sort of hoping we were all in agreement. The trinity theory, x-mas, easter, and all of the other pagan traditions of men were all things I believed before UR. Now since UR entered my life I no longer believe these fake doctrines. If people would just do a quick history on any one of the false doctrines I just listed you will find they all started at the tower of babel. Maybe some think its ok to mix false doctrines with Truth but I have found that the more devoted I am to digging to the bottom of things the more I am blessed. I don't care how many lies were taught to me, I refuse to go back to the ignorance of following traditions of men.
DuWayne
Absolutely a wonderful outlook and a basic search mode. It is amazing how the common theologies of men have been embraced by people who have never bothered to seek what the Bible says and teaches. Taking the word of man/men as to what the Bible offers as one who seeks has, been a stumbling block for many. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 21, 2013, 01:33:58 AM
2Co 13:14 the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, is with you all! Amen.
Yes, Amen I thank the Lord for that fellowship, all of us are grateful. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [Mat 28:19]
The Name= HaShem
HaShem
It is common Jewish practice to restrict the use of the word Adonai to prayer only. In conversation, some Jewish people, even when not speaking Hebrew, will call God HaShem, השם, which is Hebrew for "the Name" (this appears in Leviticus 24:11). Some religious Jews extend this prohibition to some of the other names listed below, and will add additional sounds to alter the pronunciation of a name when using it outside of a liturgical context, such as replacing the "h" or "e" or "d" with a "k" in names of God such as "kel" and "eloki'm" and "shakai".
While other names of God in Judaism are generally restricted to use in a liturgical context, HaShem is used in more casual circumstances. HaShem is used by some Orthodox Jews so as to avoid saying Adonai outside of a ritual context. For example, when some Orthodox Jews make audio recordings of prayer services, they generally substitute HaShem for Adonai; a few others have used Amonai.[13] On some occasions, similar sounds are used for authenticity, as in the movie Ushpizin, where Abonai Elokenu [sic] is used throughout.
--Wikipedia
10 A man whose mother was an Israelite and whose father was an Egyptian came out among the people of Israel; and the Israelite woman's son and a certain Israelite began fighting in the camp. 11 The Israelite woman's son blasphemed the Name in a curse. And they brought him to Moses—
--Lev 24
You probably don't want to know what happened...
But, it explains why Jews are so afraid/careful of using the name of God, to the point where they will just call him, "the Name."
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name
of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
--Mat 28
"nations"
G1484
εθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
Instances of Gentiles coming to the Israelites or to Jerusalem because of 'the Name' in the Old Testament.:
1)
6 They went to Joshua in the camp at Gilgal, and said to him and to the Israelites, 'We have come from a far country; so now make a treaty with us.' 7 But the Israelites said to the Hivites, 'Perhaps you live among us; then how can we make a treaty with you?' 8 They said to Joshua, 'We are your servants.' And Joshua said to them, 'Who are you? And where do you come from?' 9 They said to him, 'Your servants have come from a very far country, because of the name of the Lord your God; for we have heard a report of him, of all that he did in Egypt, ...
--Josh 9
2)
When the queen of Sheba heard of the fame of Solomon, (fame due to the name of the Lord), she came to test him with hard questions. 2 She came to Jerusalem with a very great retinue, with camels bearing spices, and very much gold, and precious stones; and when she came to Solomon, she told him all that was on her mind.
--1 Kings 10
3.)
[Prophecy]
Who are these that fly like a cloud,
and like doves to their windows?
9 For the coastlands shall wait for me,
the ships of Tarshish first,
to bring your children from far away,
their silver and gold with them,
for the name of the Lord your God,
and for the Holy One of Israel,
because he has glorified you.
--Isaiah 60
4)
[Prophecy]
16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the Lord, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the Lord: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
--Jer 3
Sorry. I just love this stuff--woof!
The name is Jesus. or Yeshua if you prefer Hebrew. Father is not a name, Son is not a name, Holy Spirit is not a name. Peter understood this, on the day of Pentecost as the Sanhedrin cried out in response to his sermon....."Men and brethren what must we do?!" To which Peter replied, "Repent and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Yeshua, the Anointed One, unto the remission of your sinss..."
Also Peter, in Acts 4:12 declared, "For there is ONE NAME given under heaven by which all men must be delivered"
Paul understood this and declared, "For this reason God(the Father) highly exalted Him and gave Him the name ABOVE EVERY NAME that at the name of Yeshua every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Yeshua is Lord(kurios) tot he glory of God the Father"
Salvation is declared in His Name, all things are being gathering into one in Christ Jesus.
Matthew 28:19 is a singular verse that Trinitarians parrot in the face of a dozen other verses that make it clear that the apostles understood the Name through which salvation is given is Yeshua- not, "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" which were not capitalized in the original manuscripts- the few of them that contained those verses - for all of them did not.
Eusebius, the noted scholar of the 4th century wrote that he had read 18 citations of Matthew 28:19 that read, (as in Mark), "Go ye and make disciples of all nations in My name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you".
Yet even if Matthew 28:19 is accurate as rendered, IMO the practice and teaching of the apostles makes it clear that the Name in which God has established and is gathering the Kingdom, is Yeshua- not, "Father, Son and Holy Ghost".
Quote
The name is Jesus. or Yeshua if you prefer Hebrew. Father is not a name, Son is not a name, Holy Spirit is not a name. Peter understood this, on the day of Pentecost as the Sanhedrin cried out in response to his sermon....."
-------
Paul understood this and declared, "For this reason God(the Father) highly exalted Him and gave Him the name ABOVE EVERY NAME that at the name of Yeshua every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Yeshua is Lord(kurios) tot he glory of God the Father"
A couple of things, eaglesway, because I sort of thought that [That Y'shua was to be above every other name] myself but look at this--
First the verse:
Because of this, God has also greatly exalted him and he has given him
The Name which is greater than all names, Phil 2:9 [Aramaic Bible in Plain English]
Here's a commentary:
We must read, with the best manuscripts, the Name. This seems to mean, not the name Jesus, which was given him at his circumcision, in accordance with the angel's message; but the name Lord or Jehovah (comp. Ver. 11), which was indeed his before his incarnation, but was given
(comp. Matthew 28:18, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth") to Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son, God and Man in one Person. Or more probably, perhaps, the word "Name" is used here, as so often in the Hebrew Scriptures, for the majesty, glory, dignity, of the Godhead. Compare the oft-repeated words of the psalmist, "Praise the Name of the Lord." Baptizing someone in the name means very little in English and especially to Gentiles.
But, to the Jews at the time it would have a huge meaning for the reasons I cited in the posts above. The Name is YHWH. They would not even say it, it was so holy to them. They would say HaShem instead, which means the Name, or other variations which they agreed on.
So they would read this as being baptized into YHWH the Father, YHWH the Son, and YHWH the Holy Spirit.
Or YHWH Y'shua if it's Jesus.
These were Jewish writers writing to a Jewish audience.
You might ask what does this mean ? What would it mean to a Jewish audience of the time?
It would mean that a man, 'Y'shua,' has been elevated to the family of YHWH. He is the first man to achieve this great honor. And, if he can do it, [he promises us through him] so can we.
That in The Name of Yeshua, every knee shall bow, which is in Heaven and in The Earth and which is under The Earth, [Phil 2:10]
Now look at this:
20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not
I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.22
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return,
That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
--Isa 45
Who is that talking, Eaglesway? Isn't that YHWH, our God talking? Did he change his mind and decide to step aside for Jesus? Or is that Jesus himself talking? Or some other explanation?
PS I suggest you lay aside Eusebius, a 4th century outliar with a corrupted manuscript, for the much earlier and more reliable sources going back to the early second century which show mat 28:19 is correctly quoted in our Bible
I'm not going to suggest where or "what side" of things this enters in on :Whistle: , but I do like this part of the Forward to The Christian Bible, and reading the last few posts brought it to mind. I especially like the last line, "God gave His name to His Son"... Maybe it helps somewhere in this discussion. Before I post it though, I'm so glad to see in the discussion the statements about the Name, that there's no other way to the Father, etc...excellent.
"Jesus vs. Yesu: Since the name of our Savior is the name by which we will be saved...When His first students called to Him, such as in Mark 10:47, they used the vocative case and said, "Yesu." So it seems most proper for us to transliterate this name as "Yesu," which is
both the vocative spelling and the root of all three spellings. In the Old Contract Writings ("Old Testament") God's name in Hebrew was spelled with four letters (Yodh-He-Waw-He). When using
our alphabet, it is usually transliterated as "YHWH," ..the literal pronunciation of this word is "ee-eh-oo-eh" and is best spelled as "Yehweh."
With the coming of His Son to the earth, God revealed that He is our Savior by means of His Son. Also, by this time Jews had refused to ever say God's name ("Yehweh") out of fear that they might say His name in vain. So God modified His name to "Yesu" which in Hebrew means "Yehweh-Savior," and also gave this name to His Son (see John 17:11-12)." Blessings.
Molly, in all your study(which is very impressive) have you found the answer to my question?
« Reply #474 on: Today at 12:00:49 AM »
QuoteModifyRemove
Quote from: eaglesway
More and more I wonder if you have studied the systematic theology of the Orthodox Trinitarian doctrine and are really familiar with what you believe.
"No, of course I haven't. I don't let men tell me what to believe. Otherwise, I'd probably be an atheist because I am surrounded by them. All I know about any trinity theology is God in three persons, blessed trinity. It is what I see all over the Bible. That's why I believe it." (Molly)
"All I know about any trinity theology is God in three persons, blessed trinity. It is what I see all over the Bible. That's why I believe it."
Where in and through out the Bible do you find any statements [to what you believe] of a "trinity" of three persons, blessed trinity? I personally have searched my Bible and find no evidence of such a set of words. I have also found no verse where the Holy Spirit is called a person. When I read man's teaching on the subjected, it is chock full of such theories and words. Should you find such evidence, please show me where. I mean no offence. If you got "God in three persons, blessed trinity"
from your Bible it should not be a difficult task.
"Is he – quite safe? I shall feel rather nervous about meeting a lion." "Safe?" said Mr. Beaver. "Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe! But he's good. He's the king, I tell you." - C.S. Lewis, from The Chronicles of Narnia
"The highest good, than which there is no higher, is God, and consequently He is unchangeable good, hence truly eternal and truly immortal. All other good things are only from Him." – Augustine of Hippo
"Lord of hosts! When I swim in the merciful waters of your grace I find that I can neither plumb nor measure the depths." - Menno Simons
"The very fact that a holy, eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful, merciful, fair, and just God loves you and me is nothing short of astonishing." - Francis Chan
"When we preach the love of God there is a danger of forgetting that the Bible reveals not first the love of God but the intense, blazing holiness of God, with His love at the center of that holiness." – Oswald Chambers
Quote from: Molly on June 21, 2013, 09:33:19 AM
Quote
The name is Jesus. or Yeshua if you prefer Hebrew. Father is not a name, Son is not a name, Holy Spirit is not a name. Peter understood this, on the day of Pentecost as the Sanhedrin cried out in response to his sermon....."
-------
Paul understood this and declared, "For this reason God(the Father) highly exalted Him and gave Him the name ABOVE EVERY NAME that at the name of Yeshua every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Yeshua is Lord(kurios) tot he glory of God the Father"
A couple of things, eaglesway, because I sort of thought that [That Y'shua was to be above every other name] myself but look at this--
First the verse:
Because of this, God has also greatly exalted him and he has given him The Name which is greater than all names, Phil 2:9 [Aramaic Bible in Plain English]
Here's a commentary:
We must read, with the best manuscripts, the Name. This seems to mean, not the name Jesus, which was given him at his circumcision, in accordance with the angel's message; but the name Lord or Jehovah (comp. Ver. 11), which was indeed his before his incarnation, but was given
(comp. Matthew 28:18, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth") to Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son, God and Man in one Person. Or more probably, perhaps, the word "Name" is used here, as so often in the Hebrew Scriptures, for the majesty, glory, dignity, of the Godhead. Compare the oft-repeated words of the psalmist, "Praise the Name of the Lord."
Baptizing someone in the name means very little in English and especially to Gentiles.
But, to the Jews at the time it would have a huge meaning for the reasons I cited in the posts above. The Name is YHWH. They would not even say it, it was so holy to them. They would say HaShem instead, which means the Name, or other variations which they agreed on.
So they would read this as being baptized into YHWH the Father, YHWH the Son, and YHWH the Holy Spirit.
Or YHWH Y'shua if it's Jesus.
These were Jewish writers writing to a Jewish audience.
You might ask what does this mean ? What would it mean to a Jewish audience of the time?
It would mean that a man, 'Y'shua,' has been elevated to the family of YHWH. He is the first man to achieve this great honor. And, if he can do it, [he promises us through him] so can we.
That in The Name of Yeshua, every knee shall bow, which is in Heaven and in The Earth and which is under The Earth, [Phil 2:10]
Now look at this:
20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return,
That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
--Isa 45
Who is that talking, Eaglesway? Isn't that YHWH, our God talking? Did he change his mind and decide to step aside for Jesus? Or is that Jesus himself talking? Or some other explanation?
PS I suggest you lay aside Eusebius, a 4th century outliar with a corrupted manuscript, for the much earlier and more reliable sources going back to the early second century which show mat 28:19 is correctly quoted in our Bible
the commentaries of men dont impress me much(Eusebius, however was no outliar, but was a world renowned scholar anfd theologian in his time, and was speaking of citations from 18 different writings of the church fathers). Thats why I noted that even if you verify Matt 28:19, the practice of the apostles makes the point well enough for anyone willing to consider it. Trinitarians write Trinitarian commentaries. Modalists write Modalist commentaries. The apostles proclaimed the kingdom, and baptized in the name of Jesus(Yeshua)- not Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Baptism surely meant something to Jews and Gentiles alike, as it was their mutual; introduction into the ONE NEW MAN in Christ.
Quote from: Molly on June 21, 2013, 05:01:13 PM
"Is he – quite safe? I shall feel rather nervous about meeting a lion." "Safe?" said Mr. Beaver. "Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe! But he's good. He's the king, I tell you." - C.S. Lewis, from The Chronicles of Narnia
"The highest good, than which there is no higher, is God, and consequently He is unchangeable good, hence truly eternal and truly immortal. All other good things are only from Him." – Augustine of Hippo
"Lord of hosts! When I swim in the merciful waters of your grace I find that I can neither plumb nor measure the depths." - Menno Simons
"The very fact that a holy, eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful, merciful, fair, and just God loves you and me is nothing short of astonishing." - Francis Chan
"When we preach the love of God there is a danger of forgetting that the Bible reveals not first the love of God but the intense, blazing holiness of God, with His love at the center of that holiness." – Oswald Chambers
I love Oswald Chambers....but the idea that God reveals His holiness ahead of His love is a personal opinion- since the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and Jesus, who said, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me" declared from His cross, which is the core of ALL REVELATION (Iam determined to know nothing among you but Christ and Him crucified)- "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do".
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but recieve eternal life.
1 Kings 19:9-13
There he came to a cave and lodged in it. And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?" He said, "I have been very jealous for the LORD, the God of hosts. For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword, and I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away." And he said, "Go out and stand on the mount before the Lord." And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore the mountains and broke in pieces the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. And after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire the sound of a low whisper. And when Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave. And behold, there came a voice to him and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"
There are two YHWH in this passage
YHWH the Word, LORD the God of hosts
and
The sound of a low whisper
A VOICE
Meet YHWH RUACH, the Holy Spirit
Can't find the verse or verses Molly? For me all you have offered is interpretation of evidence that there is a Holy Spirit which is the power/glory of God the Father, our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thank you so much for this thread .
When Paul had his road experience he was probably thought he was the
only person on the face of the earth.
He Knew all his buddies would think that he was nuts.
That Paul of a sudden new what scriptures (the old testament)
were not for the Jew only.
When the Holy Spirit showed me that there is no eternal torment.
I thought how could millions and millions of teachers and scholars be wrong.
I now believe the Holy Spirit has shown me there is no Blessed Trinity.
This of course will alienate me from the few remaining Christian friends
left after my dismissal of the teaching of hell.
I think the false teachings of the Evangelical church's are as entrenched as the false teachings of the Catholic church.
But I thank God that the condition of the world today is a result of False teachings.
Which leaves me with great hope, the foundation of Christ Crucified.
God did not trust that I would get it Right.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 21, 2013, 08:09:46 PM
Can't find the verse or verses Molly? For me all you have offered is interpretation of evidence that there is a Holy Spirit which is the power/glory of God the Father, our Lord Jesus Christ.
Two YHWH in one passage didn't do it for you, Micah?
I guess I can't really help.
When you meet the HS, he will talk to you, just like he talks to Elijah.
Quote from: Molly on June 21, 2013, 07:35:49 PM
1 Kings 19:9-13
There he came to a cave and lodged in it. And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?" He said, "I have been very jealous for the LORD, the God of hosts. For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword, and I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away." And he said, "Go out and stand on the mount before the Lord." And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore the mountains and broke in pieces the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. And after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire the sound of a low whisper. And when Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave. And behold, there came a voice to him and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"
There are two YHWH in this passage
YHWH the Word, LORD the God of hosts
and
The sound of a low whisper
A VOICE
Meet YHWH RUACH, the Holy Spirit
This turning into a grammar discussion LoL
Quote from: Molly on June 21, 2013, 09:26:22 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 21, 2013, 08:09:46 PM
Can't find the verse or verses Molly? For me all you have offered is interpretation of evidence that there is a Holy Spirit which is the power/glory of God the Father, our Lord Jesus Christ.
Two YHWH in one passage didn't do it for you, Micah?
I guess I can't really help.
When you meet the HS, he will talk to you, just like he talks to Elijah.
Molly, "
All I know about any trinity theology is God in three persons, blessed trinity. It is what I see all over the Bible. That's why I believe it." (Molly)
Where in and through out the Bible do you find any statements [to what you believe] of
a "trinity" of three persons, blessed trinity? I personally have searched my Bible and find no evidence of such a set of words. I have also found no verse where the Holy Spirit is called a person. When I read man's teaching on the subjected, it is chock full of such theories and words. Should you find such evidence, please show me where. I mean no offence.
If you got "God in three persons, blessed trinity"
from your Bible it should not be a difficult task. You have not shown where it is. The Lord has brought me to meet His Holy Spirit and I have been humbled by the gift, His Spirit has spoken to me and I have responded with thanks and praise. :dsunny::HeartThrob:
You said, "All I know about any trinity theology is God in three persons, blessed trinity. It is what I see
all over the Bible. That's why I believe it." (Molly)
All I'm asking is where?
1) YHWH the Word
And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"
And he said, "Go out and stand on the mount before the Lord."
2) YHWH the Holy Spirit
And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore the mountains and broke in pieces the rocks before the LORD.
And after the fire the sound of a low whisper. And when Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave. And behold, there came a voice to him and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"
1 Kings 19:9-13
You evade, why? " All I know about any trinity theology is God in three persons, blessed trinity. It is what I see all over the Bible." (Molly)
You cannot find what you have stated, " God in three persons, blessed trinity." in the Bible so you continue to give evidence of the power of God, the Holy Spirit, to which I believe fully.
I do not believe you have any evidence of "God in three persons, blessed trinity." in the Bible, so you must have got your belief from outside of the Bible. If you cannot reveal where in Bible you have found your belief, then I cannot except what you say. I do not wish to argue, but you said what you said and have failed to show where, in the Bible, you find, " God in three persons, blessed trinity." :HeartThrob:
Do you see two YHWH in 1 Kings 19:9-13, yet, Micah?
When you acknowledge there are two in that passage we can move on.
Do you see two YHWH in 1 Kings 19:9-13, yet, Micah?
Whether I see two or more makes no difference. The Holy Spirit, God's spirit is very real. You seek to seperate ONE, I do not see ONE seperated, I see ONE. The Creator will use all His attributes and facets, you chose to find those attributes and facets as seperate entities, I see all as One, out from One...I AM.
You have no premise, except your interpretation, unless or until you can substantiate where in the Bible it is stated, as you say, through out the Bible, of what you have stated is found through out the Bible that established your belief, " God in three persons, blessed trinity."
If you cannot produce what you say " God in three persons, blessed trinity." with book and verse and that being found through out the Bible, just say, you believe in the trinity doctrine, because that's what you believe, without Bible evidence. I believe in the Holy Spirit, without doubt.
I don't have to interpret anything, Micah. Just read it.
YHWH1 and YHWH2 ask Elijah the same question.
YHWH1
9 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, and he said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"
YHWH2
13 And behold, there came a voice to him and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"
Elijah gives both of the them the same answer.
to YHWH1
10 He said, "I have been very jealous for the Lord, the God of hosts. For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword, and I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away."
to YHWH2
14 He said, "I have been very jealous for the Lord, the God of hosts. For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword, and I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away."
Do you see the two YHWH there yet Micah?
Or if you still think there is just one in that passage, what do you think is going on? Is our God senile? He can't remember that he just asked that question and got an answer? Or maybe he likes to toy and play games with his holy prophets? or What?
For someone who has not listened to others in theology you sure have a way of theological speak. You will not, won't or cannot back up YOUR statement that you only used the Bible to get your information about the "trinity" and that being a "blessed trinity" of "three persons in one." You show no evidence, save what you believe.
You provide no proof save verses of scripture that I believe and accept, that God is Spirit and that He works/speaks through His human creation, be they regular men, prophets, or messengers. You prove nothing of your triangled trinity, you provide no evidence but your belief, without one ounce of biblical verse as proof.
I provide you proof.
You refuse to see it.
Do you see the two YHWH in 1Kings 19 yet?
That's a simple yes or no answer.
I asked another question. Do you have an answer to it?
"Or if you still think there is just one in that passage, what do you think is going on? Is our God senile? He can't remember that he just asked that question and got an answer? Or maybe he likes to toy and play games with his holy prophets? or What?"
PS Elijah calls them both God.
This thread has run it's course unless you Molly can show evidence that you got your belief from the 66 books of the Bible we both read. Where is a trinity mention, where is the Holy Spirit announced as a person? From the Bible where does it say God is 3, or 3 persons, outside of your understanding? :HeartThrob:
"I provide you proof.
You refuse to see it.
Do you see the two YHWH in 1Kings 19 yet?
That's a simple yes or no answer.
I asked another question. Do you have an answer?
"Or if you still think there is just one in that passage, what do you think is going on? Is our God senile? He can't remember that he just asked that question and got an answer? Or maybe he likes to toy and play games with his holy prophets? or What?"
You provide nothing to your discussion whether I see 2 or 7. I believe the Word of God as written in the Bible, but it would seem you must run with what information you received outside of the Book. Until you can show WRITTEN evidence of your theory in the Bible without your supposing I find this done. Show me your trinity, 3 person in 1, blessed trinity verse or verses in the Bible and I will be silenced.
No I will not move on until you read this passage and answer my very specific questions about what is going on without a bunch of vague answers of God is one and two and seven and talking through all kinds of humans, messengers, and donkeys.
I provide you proof time and again and you refuse to see it and you won't even answer a simple question which would allow you to see it if you would only answer the question.
There are two YHWH in this passage and they are two persons.
We know they are both God because their holy prophet Elijah calls them both God, and Elijah should know, he's their prophet.
We know they are persons because they each have a personality and it's different for each one.
Who are they? We can't even get there until you acknowledge there are two in this passage, not five, not seven, not men, not messengers, but two YHWH.
Elijah says to each one of them
For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword,
Each one of them is YHWH Elohiym. Two in this passage. And, if you refuse to see that, I refuse to move on with more proof that you will also refuse to see.
I have already offered you plenty of proof in this thread.
:blah: I'm sorry if this seems trite but you offer zilch in the way of biblical trinity proof. :dsunny:
I'm sure there are some who have ears to hear.
Amen to that! :dsunny: :banana:
God in three persons.
Anyone can go meet two of them in 1Kings 19.
If you want to see all three of them in the same room, go to the baptism of Jesus.
Molly although you have not shown one stitch of evidence for support of the trinity theory I want to compliment you on your integrity. You have done probably your own personal best of defending something that is clearly not in the Word of Yahweh. Congratulations!
This borders on baiting/flaming. Let's keep it loving and respectful please. Thanks.
Your right I am sorry for saying that.
:handshake:
Yea really, we are just here to discuss the topic. No one is going to "prove" anything. I do not begrudge Molly her position- I just disagree with it.
I was walking down the street tonight and I saw the moon. It was nearly full and the details of it were clear in the nite sky. In it I saw the beaten weeping face of my Lord Jesus.
The law reigned until the resurrection of Jesus, but it was crucified in His body- nailed to the cross and made of no effect for all those, who like the serpent lifted up on a stick in the wilderness, looked upon it. Seeing the enmity(serpent) destroyed ended the plague.
Seeing the serpent destroyed ends our plague(death) as well.
The law mourned for the world like an echo of the Voice that walked in sweet fellowship with Adam and Eve in the garden.
Then I thought about how tthw law, a mere reflection of the glory of Christ, was just like the body of Christ on the cross-crucified- so that we could enter in, freely, to the "sun shining in its strength"- the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ- Messiah of the whole world.
We can see light reflecting off the law, a tutor leading us to our hope- that the light can shine from within- something the law can never know, or for that matter, the moon :o).....and neither can we as long as the light we have is like the glory fading from Moses' face as he left the tent of meeting and the presence of God behind him in it.
We on the other hand need no veil to hide the glory that is growing within us, from faith to faith, with ever increasing glory, because Jesus is the One who is growing within us, "I am in the Father and the Father is in Me and I am in you."
"Whoever dwells in the shelter of the Most High will abide in the shadow of the Almighty".
Jesus is the shelter of the Most High.
The Holy Spirit is the shadow of the Almighty.
Praise God for all that have entered into it and fellowship with the Voice in the cool of the morning.
The dawn has broken and the day star is arising in our hearts. Awake O Sleeper and the light of Christ will shine on you.
2 Cor 3 17 Now, the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. And we all who with unveiled faces reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
2 Cor 4:6 "For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness", made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ."
:dsunny:
Anything else really need to be said here?
:Pray: :bigGrin:
:dsunny:Nope :HeartThrob:
Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him. [NIV] --John 12:41
In John 12:41, John tells us Isaiah saw Jesus' glory.
The reference is to Isaiah 6 where Isaiah describes what he saw [the second Person of the trinity].
Isaiah calls him both Adonai and YHWH of hosts.
The Apostle John identifies this as Jesus.
In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called to another and said
"Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts;
the whole earth is full of his glory!"
4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!" [Isa 6]
Yes, this is a good proof text for the Modalists, who read it as "I have seen God the King of Hosts".
As we read in 1 Corinthians 15...... After the Father has subjected all the enemies to Jesus feet, Jesus will return all things to the Father- "the One who subjected all things to Him". The Father says, "Sit at my right hand until I make all yoour enemies a footstool for your feet"
So you see, any honest person, reading Isaiah, an Old Testament prophet could see this in several different ways- I believe there are sevral ways to see it and they overlap(partial truth from each position) but are all incomplete because we may not fully understand this until we see Him face to face.
Surely YHWH is Adoni of Hosts in the Old Testament according to the view of those who see Jesus as existing only as the Logos until His incarnation.
Jesus said, "All authority in heaven and earth is given to me by my Father".
So, just because adoni and YHWH occur in the same sentence does not make it a proof text for the Trinity- because it does not make Jesus co-equal to "God the Father"
In fact, even if one believes in the Trinity- they could hold that Jesus is the eternally existent Son, undr Hos Father- as Tertullian, who originally proposed the doctrine- defined it. It wasnt until Tertullian was long dead and buried that the RCC in its formative stages under Anathasius and Constantine, approved the Trinity as co-equal, co-eternal and co-substantial.
Constantine had long been double minded about the Trintiy, having at one time banished Anathasius in favor of Arius
Jesus is identified here as YHWH of hosts of the Old Testament.
That's God enough for me.
Psalm 24:10
Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
1 The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
2 For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.
3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
6 This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
8 Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
--Psalm 24
One thing this thread has reinforced for me, is the foundation.
Jesus the son of God was killed by men.
God raised Jesus from the dead.
This is what the apostles believed; these men did not have access to the bible.
They had no position on Mary, The God head or any doctrine.
They flew by the sit of there pants, they no formulas to conjure the spirit of God.
I now trust the foundation enough to know that
God is producing Love pure Love by pressing every thing on the foundation.
Yes, I see that, and I agree that it is speaking of Jesus, propheticly. My point is- it is as good proof text for a Modalist as it is for a Trinitarian and a untiarian just sees it speaking of YHWH in the OT. it doesnt say "Jesus" anywhere there.
King David is talking to the same God spoken about in Heb 1.
King David knew Jesus. Heb 1 signals this by quoting from Psalm 102 while talking about Jesus.
Hebrews 1
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Psalm 102
24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
"The Lord said to my Lord"
Who is Davids Lord and who is the Lord speaking to Davids Lord?
Quote from: ded2daworld on June 22, 2013, 10:52:54 PM
"The Lord said to my Lord"
Who is Davids Lord and who is the Lord speaking to Davids Lord?
Father and Son.
David's Lord is Jesus.
Exactly my point. :Peace2: The Holy God is at the very least a diunity. IMO, it's silly to say God has to be one as you and I humans are one. The "God" kind is nothing like human kind and our finite minds cannot concieve of an infinite, one of a kind, omniscient, omnipresent being and how the being(God) manifests humself. :Chinscratch:
Quote from: Molly on June 23, 2013, 12:17:00 AM
Quote from: ded2daworld on June 22, 2013, 10:52:54 PM
"The Lord said to my Lord"
Who is Davids Lord and who is the Lord speaking to Davids Lord?
Father and Son.
David's Lord is Jesus.
The quote in Hebrew goes something like, YHWH says to ladoni sit thou at my right hand.....
I have no problem if someone sees that as a duity but it does not indicate co-equality by any stretch of the imagination.
YHWH is saying to Jesus, "HAve a seat while I whip all your enemies until every one of them bows to you". This is clear to me- a superior speaking to a beloved but lesser one. When placed in context with, "All authority on neaven and earth is given me by my Father" and "So it plaesed the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him" and "My Father is greater than I", and For this reason GOD has also highly exalted Him and GIVEN Him the name above every name- Lo and Behold, another perspective emerges within which several possibilities become reasonable to consider.
Taking those first 5 words, in English no less, and separating them from the context of the entire statement gives a false impression, IMO, and therefore serve poorly as proof text for either/any particualar systematic theology.
I do think Binitarianism has a lot to recommend in it. My sole objection is to anyone who teaches ANY of the major doctrinal systems on the godhead as the complete truth, AND EVEN MORESO, AS ESSENTIAL truth/doctrine. That is where the danger comes in, and people get excluded, judged- even killed over a "truth" seen through a glass darkly.
I wouldnt want anyone to think I am arguing for any of those positions. In my opinion you have to keep poking holes in it till you cant and hen you cant- you are a little closer to the truth :o) So I just poked a hole about a semi truck wide in Psalm 110:1 as a proof text for anything other than the Father raising up His Son Jesus over all things- exactly as Eph 1:9-11 and 1 Cor 15:21-28 explain- also clearly. I wonder if anyone is bold enough to admit the possibility/likelihood that these three portions of Scripture along with Hebrews 2 "Thou art my Son TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN THEE present reasonable alternatives to the Trinity, the Binity, the Unity ALL OF THEM INSUFFICIENT AS DEFINED IN THEIR ORTHODOXY TO EXPLAIN ALL THE SCRIPTURES :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on June 23, 2013, 03:17:37 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 23, 2013, 12:17:00 AM
Quote from: ded2daworld on June 22, 2013, 10:52:54 PM
"The Lord said to my Lord"
Who is Davids Lord and who is the Lord speaking to Davids Lord?
Father and Son.
David's Lord is Jesus.
The quote in Hebrew goes something like, YHWH says to ladoni sit thou at my right hand.....
I have no problem if someone sees that as a duity but it does not indicate co-equality by any stretch of the imagination.
YHWH is saying to Jesus, "HAve a seat while I whip all your enemies until every one of them bows to you". This is clear to me- a superior speaking to a beloved but lesser one. When placed in context with, "All authority on neaven and earth is given me by my Father" and "So it plaesed the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him" and "My Father is greater than I", and For this reason GOD has also highly exalted Him and GIVEN Him the name above every name- Lo and Behold, another perspective emerges within which several possibilities become reasonable to consider.
Taking those first 5 words, in English no less, and separating them from the context of the entire statement gives a false impression, IMO, and therefore serve poorly as proof text for either/any particualar systematic theology.
I do think Binitarianism has a lot to recommend in it. My sole objection is to anyone who teaches ANY of the major doctrinal systems on the godhead as the complete truth, AND EVEN MORESO, AS ESSENTIAL truth/doctrine. That is where the danger comes in, and people get excluded, judged- even killed over a "truth" seen through a glass darkly.
I wouldnt want anyone to think I am arguing for any of those positions. In my opinion you have to keep poking holes in it till you cant and hen you cant- you are a little closer to the truth :o) So I just poked a hole about a semi truck wide in Psalm 110:1 as a proof text for anything other than the Father raising up His Son Jesus over all things- exactly as Eph 1:9-11 and 1 Cor 15:21-28 explain- also clearly. I wonder if anyone is bold enough to admit the possibility/likelihood that these three portions of Scripture along with Hebrews 2 "Thou art my Son TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN THEE present reasonable alternatives to the Trinity, the Binity, the Unity ALL OF THEM INSUFFICIENT AS DEFINED IN THEIR ORTHODOXY TO EXPLAIN ALL THE SCRIPTURES :o)
Sounds like the Holy Spirit gave you a good talking too. :iagree:
And ME Myself and I are all listening to Him :o)
Quote from: eagleswayI wouldnt want anyone to think I am arguing for any of those positions. In my opinion you have to keep poking holes in it till you cant and hen you cant- you are a little closer to the truth :o) So I just poked a hole about a semi truck wide in Psalm 110:1 as a proof text for anything other than the Father raising up His Son Jesus over all things- exactly as Eph 1:9-11 and 1 Cor 15:21-28 explain- also clearly. I wonder if anyone is bold enough to admit the possibility/likelihood that these three portions of Scripture along with Hebrews 2 "Thou art my Son TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN THEE present reasonable alternatives to the Trinity, the Binity, the Unity ALL OF THEM INSUFFICIENT AS DEFINED IN THEIR ORTHODOXY TO EXPLAIN ALL THE SCRIPTURES :o)
well, I would be the first to say you have done no such thing [as poking holes].
The thing you seem to keep forgetting is that Jesus is the Creator God. As if he needed to be raised up over anything or anybody for any reason at all.
You seem to keep forgetting where he started his journey--YHWH of hosts!
But, you also seem to want to diminish him, if you would forgive me for saying that, but that is what I keep seeing and it makes me scowl. Why would you be so interested in doing that? Diminish our Creator?
I don't know why, but I will say this. If you would just read all those passages you cited and think for a moment--He needs nothing from us, why is he doing this?
Because everything he's doing, diminishing HIMSELF [he doesn't need your help] and going through hell on earth was for us, listen closely to me now because I'm scowling again, so that we could follow him--more likely be dragged by him-- to the very place he ended up. If he is raised from the dead, we will be too. If he ascends to heaven starting with a man's body, so will we. If he is given the name above all names, so will we. He has made a road, a highway even, in the desert so that his people can be where he is. We will be where he is, through no thanks to ourselves--He has done all the work.
Why? Only one reason I can think of : Love.
Those who are victorious will sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne.--Rev 3:21
Let me try putting this another way. Think of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one God.
God has made a will. He has made himself the beneficiary. He has also made us the co-beneficiaries.
The will states that when God dies, God will inherit everything and, as his co-inheritors, so will we!
God has also appointed himself as executor of the will and is in the process now of marshaling the assets and paying them out to the beneficiaries of the will, under the stipulations of the will.
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
--1 Cor 2:9
Quote from: Molly on June 23, 2013, 05:35:09 AM
Quote from: eagleswayI wouldnt want anyone to think I am arguing for any of those positions. In my opinion you have to keep poking holes in it till you cant and hen you cant- you are a little closer to the truth :o) So I just poked a hole about a semi truck wide in Psalm 110:1 as a proof text for anything other than the Father raising up His Son Jesus over all things- exactly as Eph 1:9-11 and 1 Cor 15:21-28 explain- also clearly. I wonder if anyone is bold enough to admit the possibility/likelihood that these three portions of Scripture along with Hebrews 2 "Thou art my Son TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN THEE present reasonable alternatives to the Trinity, the Binity, the Unity ALL OF THEM INSUFFICIENT AS DEFINED IN THEIR ORTHODOXY TO EXPLAIN ALL THE SCRIPTURES :o)
well, I would be the first to say you have done no such thing [as poking holes].
The thing you seem to keep forgetting is that Jesus is the Creator God. As if he needed to be raised up over anything or anybody for any reason at all.
You seem to keep forgetting where he started his journey--YHWH of hosts!
But, you also seem to want to diminish him, if you would forgive me for saying that, but that is what I keep seeing and it makes me scowl. Why would you be so interested in doing that? Diminish our Creator?
I don't know why, but I will say this. If you would just read all those passages you cited and think for a moment--He needs nothing from us, why is he doing this?
Because everything he's doing, diminishing HIMSELF [he doesn't need your help] and going through hell on earth was for us, listen closely to me now because I'm scowling again, so that we could follow him--more likely be dragged by him-- to the very place he ended up. If he is raised from the dead, we will be too. If he ascends to heaven starting with a man's body, so will we. If he is given the name above all names, so will we. He has made a road, a highway even, in the desert so that his people can be where he is. We will be where he is, through no thanks to ourselves--He has done all the work.
Why? Only one reason I can think of : Love.
Those who are victorious will sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne.
--Rev 3:21
I have no desire to diminish Jesus, any more than He did diminish Himself when He said, "My Father is greater than I". That by the way, is Jesus' commentary on the godhead. Perhaps you diminish Him by denying His own testimony and dancing around it with rationalizations. In any case, I am thankful for anyone who praises Jesus
to the glory of God the Father- scowl as you will my sister in Christ- I am not diminished in the slightest by it :o).
Jesus came to reveal the Father. That means different things to different people. Just because someone doesnt tow the "company line", adhering to a man made word(Trintarian or Oneness or Bi-nitarian for instance) you would diminish them? Who are you to scowl? Despite your disclaimers, you do diminish the validity of the faith of anyone who disagrees with your position. An old, quite common symptom of man enforced "religion".
Malachi
Don't all of us have one Father? Didn't one God create us?
Malachi
Didn't the one God make us with a remnant of His life-breath?
Mark
Why do you call Me good?" Jesus asked him. "No one is good but One—God.
Luke
Why do you call Me good?" Jesus asked him. "No one is good but One—God.
Acts
But the One God raised up did not decay.
Romans
since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Corinthians
yet for us there is one God, the Father. All things are from Him, and we exist for Him. And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ. All things are through Him, and we exist through Him.
Ephesians
one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all.
Timothy
For there is one God and one mediator between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, Himself human,
"I and the Father are (present tense) One" (John 10:30)
Before creation, Christ was with God because He was God.
"In the beginning (before creation) was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God" (John 1:1-2)
God the Father does not abide in imperfection and knowing that imperfection would result from the choice of His children to grab at Divine power which they would abuse, creation was ordained by God the Father to be worked through His own Agent, His Spiritual Christ which proceeded out of Himself ("begotten" of the Father).
"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3) thus "...the firstborn of all creation" (yet to become Jesus the Man).
Then two thousand years ago God's own Christ (through whom creation was already wrought) issued forth from the Father according to His will (the Father) and became the human Jesus the Christ who walked in sandals.
"Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth (ek tou thenou exēlthon) and came from God..." (John 8:42)
"He is the image of the invisible God (eikon aoratos theos), the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15)
Clearly, as "God is Spirit" (John 4:24) then a human of flesh and bones is not the Father God who is Spirit, except in manifestation as flesh:
"For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell" (Colossians 1:19) and yet "The Father is greater than I" said He (John 14:28).
Jesus Christ on Earth was as a man. He abandoned the privileges of the Godhead to which He was entitled and came with no advantages that man does not have ("...came out from God" "ego para tou theou exēlthon" John 16:27). He chose an environment which provided no help in the sense that is expected today (Luke 2). And yet, being a pure soul (the only pure soul) through His own perfect purity (Hebrews 4:15, 1 Peter 2:22) and suffering, the connection to the Godhead was made and unlimited power was at His disposal.
The earth words are for the sake of human understanding only, even those from the Cross. Only once was there a brief pause between His connection with the Godhead (Matthew 27:46) and this was so that man can never say that Jesus Christ the Man had advantages that man does not.
Conversely, should there be a brief staggering pause during a human's earthly life when the ancient and sacred life of Christ surges powerfully through him showing his spirit in something of its unimaginable wonder (John 14:21) and urged through and out of him with all the force of his being is the unspoken equivalent of the Name "JESUS", then that person knows for ever that there is no separation between the Lord Jehovah of old and His Christ nor indeed was there a "beginning" to Christ.
Quote from: eagleswayI have no desire to diminish Jesus, any more than He did diminish Himself when He said, "My Father is greater than I". That by the way, is Jesus' commentary on the godhead. Perhaps you diminish Him by denying His own testimony and dancing around it with rationalizations. In any case, I am thankful for anyone who praises Jesus to the glory of God the Father- scowl as you will my sister in Christ- I am not diminished in the slightest by it :o).
Jesus came to reveal the Father. That means different things to different people. Just because someone doesnt tow the "company line", adhering to a man made word(Trintarian or Oneness or Bi-nitarian for instance) you would diminish them? Who are you to scowl? Despite your disclaimers, you do diminish the validity of the faith of anyone who disagrees with your position. An old, quite common symptom of man enforced "religion".
lol Sorry about the scowl It only works with children and dogs. When I scowl my dog goes :eek:
I was actually just returning here to remove that because I wrote it in the middle of the night at the height of frustration.
I come here to see not only is it too late to remove it, but I am completely rewarded by that totally inspired post by Lastpost.
I wish I could convince you it's not a company line. The earliest church Fathers knew that Jesus is God ['is' and equal].
But, for me, it is experiential, I am a pragmatist and only rely on experience--my own.
And, I would like to share it, but mostly I cannot. I'm trying to communicate to you that he came down to our level so that he could bring us as high as he could bring us.
We will not ever be equal to God ourselves, never be equal to Jesus, but we will be like the Son. That is as high as we, not He, can go.
The limit is on us, as the created beings, not Him.
Anyway, glad you're not offended. :friendstu:
26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them." [Jn 17]
I really thought this was over. But....
"No, of course I haven't. I don't let men tell me what to believe. Otherwise, I'd probably be an atheist because I am surrounded by them. All I know about any trinity theology is God in three persons, blessed trinity. It is what I see all over the Bible. That's why I believe it." (Molly)
If this be true, what you believe, why did not Jesus ever speak of such a thing as "God in three persons, blessed trinity?" And the same with Paul? Paul speaks of only ONE, body,Spirit, hope,Lord, faith, baptism, God, and Father.... to keep the UNITY of the Spirit, in PEACE. It would seem to me that if there was such a schism alluding to a 3 persons in 1, Paul certainly said nothing of it. And keep in mind, Paul was a scholar of the OT and should he have seen evidence(by interputaion) of such a teaching, Paul I believe would have brought it out in his teaching. IMO
Eph 4:4 one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in you all,
1Co 6:17 And he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit;
Eph 4:3 being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace;
Unity G1775 oneness, that is, (figuratively) unanimity: - unity.
Peace G1515 one, peace, quietness, rest, + set at one again.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Confusion G181 instability, that is, disorder: - commotion, confusion, tumult.
I also believe Jesus was pretty clear of who He is/was and Jesus spoke only in Spirit.. " The words I have spoken to you are spirit and are Life."
Jesus said, "and yet you, Philip, do not know me? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How can *you* ask me, 'Cause us to see the Father'?
Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and that the Father is in me? The things that I tell you all I do not speak on my own authority: but the Father dwelling within me carries on His own work.
Joh 14:11 Believe me, all of you, that I am in the Father and that the Father is in me; or at any rate, believe me because of what I do.
Joh 17:11 and no more am I in the world, and these are in the world, and I come unto Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name,(Thy name: Lord G2962 supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir. H3068 (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah Joshua H3091 Jehovah-saved; Jesus G2424 Jesus (that is, Jehoshua), the name of our Lord H3091) whom Thou hast given to me, that they may be one as we;
Joh 16:23 and in that day ye will question me nothing; verily, verily, I say to you, as many things as ye may ask of the Father in my name, He will give you;
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit which gives Life. The flesh confers no benefit whatever. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and are Life.
Joh 14:9 "Have I been so long among you," Jesus answered, "and yet you, Philip, do not know me? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How can *you* ask me, 'Cause us to see the Father'?
Joh 8:56 Abraham your forefather exulted in the hope of seeing my day: and he saw it, and was glad."
Joh 8:57 "You are not yet fifty years old," cried the Jews, "and have you seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58 "In most solemn truth," answered Jesus, "I tell you that before Abraham came into existence, I am."
QuoteEph 4:3 being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace;
"To keep the unity of the Spirit." Exactly. Why do you need unity if there is only one? The unity of the Spirit applies to more than one acting as one. E Pluribus Unum. Out of many, One. Many States acting as One.
Likewise with Eloheim. Although it denotes plurality, it is always used with a first person singular verb.
We don't say the United States are going to war. We say the United States IS going to war.
So you can have oneness in more than one--that is at the heart of the Godhead--and what our God expects of us.
"unity"G1775
ἑνότης
henotēs
hen-ot'-ace
From G1520;
oneness, that is, (figuratively) unanimity: - unity.
QuoteIf this be true, what you believe, why did not Jesus ever speak of such a thing as "God in three persons, blessed trinity?"
He did. He spoke of the Father. He spoke of the Holy Spirit. And, he spoke of Himself--before Abraham was, I AM [the self existent One YHWH].
By the way, I was singing a song I learned in childhood, 'God in three Persons, blessed trinity.'
Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty!
Early in the morning our song shall rise to Thee;
Holy, holy, holy, merciful and mighty!
God in three Persons, blessed Trinity!
Holy, holy, holy! All the saints adore Thee,
Casting down their golden crowns around the glassy sea;
Cherubim and seraphim falling down before Thee,
Who was, and is, and evermore shall be.
Holy, holy, holy! Though the darkness hide Thee,
Though the eye of sinful man Thy glory may not see;
Only Thou art holy; there is none beside Thee,
Perfect in pow'r, in love, and purity.
Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty!
All Thy works shall praise
Thy Name, in earth, and sky, and sea;
Holy, holy, holy; merciful and mighty!
God in three Persons, blessed Trinity!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5nGsTI2ESU
"No, of course I haven't. I don't let men tell me what to believe. Otherwise, I'd probably be an atheist because I am surrounded by them. All I know about any trinity theology is God in three persons, blessed trinity. It is what I see all over the Bible. That's why I believe it." Molly
"By the way, I was singing a song I learned in childhood, 'God in three Persons, blessed trinity.'" Molly
I would consider that "an out side the Bible" influence. The Hymn is not biblical, there are no such "God in three Persons, blessed Trinity!" in the Word of God. It is a traditional "religious" song right? For many years I sang and played, "Where the soul of man never dies," but alas that ain't biblical either, or "Ill fly Away." There are plenty of religious and denominational songs that sell for $ but that don't make them Bible backed. I was a Lutheran from K- High School and I was made to sing that song, I was also commanded to memorize the Lutheran catechism and is foll of falsehoods, just as most of the hymns Like "'God in three Persons, blessed trinity."
And as for unity, it states "keeping the unity," meaning the unity was/is already established. Unit: the smallest whole number; one. A magnitude or number regarded as an undivided whole.
Since I couldn't see because of the brightness of that light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me, and came into Damascus. 12 Someone named Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good reputation with all the Jews residing there, 13 came and stood by me and said, 'Brother Saul, regain your sight.' And in that very hour I looked up and saw him. 14 Then he said, 'The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will, to see the Righteous One, and to hear the sound of His voice.[c] 15 For you will be a witness for Him to all people of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now, why delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins by calling on His name.'
Quote"By the way, I was singing a song I learned in childhood, 'God in three Persons, blessed trinity.'" Molly
I would consider that "an out side the Bible" influence
First I was accused of being influenced by church heresies, then I was accused of knowing nothing about the trinity, now I am condemned by one song lol.
Read the song, it's completely biblical. Beautiful song.
Otherwise, be careful what you teach your children. They might end up like me.
Quote from: dajomaco on June 23, 2013, 07:52:06 PM
Since I couldn't see because of the brightness of that light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me, and came into Damascus. 12 Someone named Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good reputation with all the Jews residing there, 13 came and stood by me and said, 'Brother Saul, regain your sight.' And in that very hour I looked up and saw him. 14 Then he said, 'The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will, to see the Righteous One, and to hear the sound of His voice.[c] 15 For you will be a witness for Him to all people of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now, why delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins by calling on His name.'
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. [Jer 3:26]
Even if I testify about Myself," Jesus replied, "My testimony is valid,[d] because I know where I came from and where I'm going. But you don't know where I come from or where I'm going. 15 You judge by human standards.[e] I judge no one. 16 And if I do judge, My judgment is true, because I am not alone, but I and the Father who sent Me judge together. 17 Even in your law it is written that the witness of two men is valid. 18 I am the One who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me."
Jesus clearly states as a legal argument
1) that jesus testifies about himself.
2) that the Father testifies about Jesus.
He is saying in a righteous court of law,
where there can be no Lies.
No misleading implication .
That there are:
Two Separate witnesses
Quote from: Molly on June 23, 2013, 07:55:56 PM
Quote"By the way, I was singing a song I learned in childhood, 'God in three Persons, blessed trinity.'" Molly
I would consider that "an out side the Bible" influence
First I was accused of being influenced by church heresies, then I was accused of knowing nothing about the trinity, now I am condemned by one song lol.
Read the song, it's completely biblical. Beautiful song.
Otherwise, be careful what you teach your children. They might end up like me.
Molly, I am sure you are good person and friend in Christ. Yet you have side stepped every opportunity to show in the Bible, where there is any such a line of verse as "God in three Persons, blessed trinity.'"
Just where did the song writer[if not you] get that 3 persons trinity stuff from the Bible?
You say you have not been influenced in your belief(which should a trinity of 3 persons be your belief, good) but unless you can show in your Bible such a teaching, with those words, you can believe it, but it is not in the Word of God. I believe you love the Lord with all your mind and life, so I am not debating your faith. If you found this belief in the Bible, where? :HeartThrob:
"In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. [Jer 3:26]"
"THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. " Our Jehovah[Joshua-Jesus] Lord[Jehovah] our righteousness.
Quote from: dajomaco on June 23, 2013, 08:07:28 PM
Even if I testify about Myself," Jesus replied, "My testimony is valid,[d] because I know where I came from and where I'm going. But you don't know where I come from or where I'm going. 15 You judge by human standards.[e] I judge no one. 16 And if I do judge, My judgment is true, because I am not alone, but I and the Father who sent Me judge together. 17 Even in your law it is written that the witness of two men is valid. 18 I am the One who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me."
Jesus clearly states as a legal argument
1) that jesus testifies about himself.
2) that the Father testifies about Jesus.
He is saying in a righteous court of law,
where there can be no Lies.
No misleading implication .
That there are:
Two Separate witnesses
Yes, all matters are decided by two or three witnesses. That's why the Spirit within us and the Holy Spirit himself can testify together as two witnesses.
"Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."[2 Cor 13:1]
The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Rom 8:16
So then we only have two witnesses, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. :HeartThrob:
Joh 5:37 `And the Father who sent me Himself hath testified concerning me; ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor His appearance have ye seen;
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
All three of the trinity were present at the baptism of Jesus.
The dove is the Holy Spirit, in the form of a dove symbolizing the peace made with Noah made after the flood and the arrival of dry land in the body of Christ.
"Peace on earth good will to men. [Lk 2:14]
The dove is also the poor man's sacrifice allowed under the Levitical system.
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [Mat 5:3]
John witnesses:
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me,
Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God. [John 1]
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.
--Mat 3:16
Finally, the Father is also a witness, a literal opening of the heavens, for we are told:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Mat 317]
Witnesses to Jesus
31 "If I were to testify on my own behalf, my testimony would not be valid. 32 But someone else is also testifying about me, and I assure you that everything he says about me is true. 33 In fact, you sent investigators to listen to John the Baptist, and his testimony about me was true. 34 Of course, I have no need of human witnesses, but I say these things so you might be saved. 35 John was like a burning and shining lamp, and you were excited for a while about his message. 36 But I have a greater witness than John—my teachings and my miracles. The Father gave me these works to accomplish, and they prove that he sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has testified about me himself. You have never heard his voice or seen him face to face, 38 and you do not have his message in your hearts, because you do not believe me—the one he sent to you.
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, his spirit was troubled within him when he saw that the city was full of idols.
Was it Paul's spirit that was troubled or was it the Holy Spirit?
Quote from: dajomaco on June 24, 2013, 06:32:19 AM
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, his spirit was troubled within him when he saw that the city was full of idols.
Was it Paul's spirit that was troubled or was it the Holy Spirit?
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14But
the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. [1Cor 2:4]
The testimony of our own spirit is borne in that cry of conscious sonship, "Abba, Father"; but we are not therein alone; for the Holy Ghost within us, yea, even in that very cry which it is His to draw forth, sets His own distinct seal to ours; and thus, "in the mouth of two witnesses" the thing is established. The apostle had before called us "sons of God," referring to our adoption; here the word changes to "children," referring to our new birth. The one expresses the dignity to which we are admitted; the other the new life which we receive. The latter is more suitable here; because a son by adoption might not be heir of the property, whereas a son by birth certainly is, and this is what the apostle is now coming to.
--Jamieson-Fausett Brown
14. natural man—literally, "a man of animal soul." As contrasted with the spiritual man, he is governed by the animal soul, which overbears his spirit, which latter is without the Spirit of God (Jude 19). So the animal (English Version, "natural") body, or body led by the lower animal nature (including both the mere human fallen reason and heart), is contrasted with the Spirit-quickened body (1Co 15:44-46). The carnal man (the man led by bodily appetites, and also by a self-exalting spirit, estranged from the divine life) is closely akin; so too the "earthly." "Devilish," or "demon-like"; "led by an evil spirit," is the awful character of such a one, in its worst type (Jas 3:15).
--Jamieson-Fausett Brown
14. natural man—literally, "a man of animal soul." As contrasted with the spiritual man, he is governed by the animal soul, which overbears his spirit, which latter is without the Spirit of God (Jude 19). So the animal (English Version, "natural") body, or body led by the lower animal nature (including both the mere human fallen reason and heart), is contrasted with the Spirit-quickened body (1Co 15:44-46). The carnal man (the man led by bodily appetites, and also by a self-exalting spirit, estranged from the divine life) is closely akin; so too the "earthly." "Devilish," or "demon-like"; "led by an evil spirit," is the awful character of such a one, in its worst type (Jas 3:15).
--Jamieson-Fausett Brown
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
The Bible
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. [1Cor 2:4]
So true, so true. :dsunny:
Quote from: MicahEcc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
But, we have the mind of Christ! [1 Cor 2:16]
No, in all these things we have
complete victory through Him who loved us!
-- Rom 8:37
Very true and praise the Lord. But what has that got to do with the path of natrual carnal human beings, beasts? Man(breathing creature) is still in a frame of dust, even though man is in the progress of change. The mind of Christ works in us who have been drawn and are being changed for good. Should a man die today, he begins his return to dust to await judgment.
But this has nothing to do with a blessed trinity 3 persons in 1. :dsunny:
The following list of interpolations is taken from notes by Professor C. Tischendorf, based on the Sinaitic Manuscript which he discovered at the foot of Mount Sinai. There are many others, but those contained in this list seem to be the only ones which materially change the meaning of the texts in which they appear. Although some have contested the exclusion of these, individuals have deemed it wise to delete these from their Bible:
Matthew 28:19 ---"the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"
The early Church historian Eusebius appears to quote from a different manuscript than any we presently have. Eighteen times between the years 300 and 336-C.E. he cited Matthew 28:19, 20 as: 'Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you.'
It is interesting that the traditional Trinitarian reading of Matthew 28:19 does not appear in Eusebius' writings until after the Council of Nicaea, wherein the Trinity began to formally be held as official doctrine. So, evidence strongly indicates that this is a spurious scripture inserted by later Trinitarians, in the same vein as 1 John 5:7-8.
I always thought that I had a Spirit.
A spirit that was my own.
That God had, was, is, a Spirit.
That God's Spirit woke my spirit up from sleep and now the Spirit of God teaches
my spirit.
My spirit grows:
Is my Spirit the same as God's Spirit?
Did my spirit now become God's spirit?
Did I ever have a Spirit?
Will I have an eternal identity?
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 24, 2013, 08:08:18 PM
Very true and praise the Lord. But what has that got to do with the path of natrual carnal human beings, beasts? Man(breathing creature) is still in a frame of dust, even though man is in the progress of change. The mind of Christ works in us who have been drawn and are being changed for good. Should a man die today, he begins his return to dust to await judgment.
But this has nothing to do with a blessed trinity 3 persons in 1. :dsunny:
I guess I can just repeat myself forever because we have forever, Micah, we are not going to die.
Is there something more I could make clear about
complete victory?
How about:
For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your holy one to rot in the grave. Psalm 16:10
We know that we have passed from death unto life... 1John 3:14
It has to do with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit residing inside of us.
Spurious Passages in the Bible
I Corinthians 6:20 -- "and in your spirit, which are God's." An evident attempt to bolster the erroneous theory which was introduced into the church during the Dark Ages that the `spirit' is an entity separate and distinct from the body
Quote from: dajomaco on June 24, 2013, 08:19:24 PM
I always thought that I had a Spirit.
A spirit that was my own.
That God had, was, is, a Spirit.
That God's Spirit woke my spirit up from sleep and now the Spirit of God teaches
my spirit.
My spirit grows:
Is my Spirit the same as God's Spirit?
Did my spirit now become God's spirit?
Did I ever have a Spirit?
Will I have an eternal identity?
Once the Holy Spirit enters you, you have a Spirit.
And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor
to be with you forever. Jn 14:16
Does the Bible Support the Idea of the Trinity?
While the word Trinity is not found in the Bible, is the concept of the Trinity taught clearly in it?
The Encyclopedia of Religion Vol. 15 1987 admits: 'Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity.'
The New Catholic Encyclopedia: 'The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament.'
The Encyclopedia of Religion says: 'Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity.'
The Encyclopedia Britannica 1976 observes: Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.'
Protestant theologian Karl Barth (as quoted in The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology 1976) similarly states: 'The New Testament does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. The Bible lacks the express declaration the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence.'
I John 5:7 -- "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." These words were added in an effort to prove the Trinitarian doctrine. It is the only expression in the King James Versionof the Bible that in any way suggests a triune God, but it is spurious, so should not be accepted as part of the inspired Word.
Luke 22:29 'And I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom.' Since a covenant is a solemn promise between two parties, one does not make a covenant with oneself. Q: Since there is no mention of the Holy Spirit here, how does the Holy Spirit tie into this covenant? On which part of the covenant would the Holy Spirit be, on the Father's side, or on the side of Jesus?
John 14:1 'Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me.' Q: Why would Jesus say to exercise faith in him directly after he had said to exercise faith in God, if Jesus IS God? Doesn't that seem redundant? If Jesus is God, then why does Jesus make a distinction here between 'God' and then 'me'? And, why doesn't Jesus say to exercise faith in the Holy Spirit?
Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith. [see Heb 12:2]
But it is the Holy Spirit who writes God's laws on our minds and hearts as the New Covenant, so that God can dwell among us and in us.
There is a difference between the faith of Christ and the Holy Spirit.
but I need some time to pull together the scriptures. Can't do it now.
Commander of the LORD's Armies
The Holy Spirit
13 When Joshua was near the town of Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with sword in hand. Joshua went up to him and demanded, "Are you friend or foe?"
14 "Neither one," he replied. "I am the commander of the Lord's army."
--Josh 5
Who is this?
I had long thought it was Jesus and just about everyone thinks it is Jesus, as well.
But, this theophany has a sword in his hand. We see Jesus in Rev 19 with a sword in his mouth. Jesus is the Word.
We know he is YHWH because Josh 6 identifies him as YHWH
This is further confirmed by the fact that Joshua worships him. If this were an angel, he would stop the worship immediately as did the angel in Rev 22.
He tells Joshua that he is standing on Holy Ground. and orders him to remove his shoes.
And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?
15 And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so. Josh 5
Obviously Joshua knows who he is talking to. Joshua is about to enter into his first battle in the promised land and has been out scouting the area around Jericho.
There is no way Joshua would remove his shoes in such a dangerous circumstance for man or angel.
Then the commander of the Lord's armies tell Joshua he has already won the battle and gives Joshua instructions.
When the Holy Spirit tells us what to do it behooves us to follow his instructions because therein lies the victory.
And the Lord [YHWH] said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour.
3 And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days. Josh 6
We have already seen the Lord's hosts in 2 Kings 6 and it is an impressive sight.
Is this what the people and warriors of Jericho saw as the Israelites marched around their city?
16 He replied, "Don't be afraid, for our side outnumbers them." 17 Then Elisha prayed, "O Lord, open his eyes so he can see." The Lord opened the servant's eyes and he saw that the hill was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. [2Kings6]
Now the commander of the Lord's hosts is telling Joshua he is fighting the battle for him and Joshua has already won. The battle, as we know, will proceed in a way that is not only confusing to us, but to the enemy as well. In fact, it almost looks downright silly. But, Joshua follows the instructions to a T and the city is his.
It is through the Holy Spirit that our battles are won. He is the God of comfort and strength. He is the warrior God, and if he is on our side through the Lord Jesus Christ all battles will eventually be victorious. This I believe. For this reason we are not to be discouraged or disheartened. We are to even be cheerful in the face of adversity because the battle is His.
This is what the LORD says to Zerubbabel: It is not by force nor by strength, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of Heaven's Armies. [Zech 4:6]
Personally I don't believe anyone in this thread has denied that the Spirit/Holy Spirit is the power of the Lord God, either in the OT or the NT. But the entity that the Holy Spirit is a separate person of a 3 in 1 blessed trinity, is in the discussion. :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 25, 2013, 04:47:09 PM
Personally I don't believe anyone in this thread has denied that the Spirit/Holy Spirit is the power of the Lord God, either in the OT or the NT. But the entity that the Holy Spirit is a separate person of a 3 in 1 blessed trinity, is in the discussion. :dsunny:
Read it again Micah.
A separate Person is standing there with sword in hand, the commander of the LORD's armies, the third Person of the trinity.
Molly I'm sorry but besides you saying that is the HS, there is not one inkling of evidence saying it is the HS. Could you bold or highlight why you think thats the case? ARe you saying its because he carries a sword instead of having one in his mouth? :dontknow:
We win the battle not by our force or our might [the ways of the world]
but by my Spirit says the LORD of hosts
This has long had a very practical application for me because I've fought
a lot of battles.
As you know, I maintain--
We saw YHWH Ruach, the Holy Spirit, in 1Kings 19. He enters the scene with great power, blasting mountains apart, creating earthquakes, throwing fire everywhere. He is the warrior God of the trinity and not one to be trifled with.
We saw him again, standing on the right hand of the Son, in Psalm 110. He is the One who will pour out God's wrath on the earth while the Lamb is in chambers with his bride.
Does this sound like Jesus?:
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
--Psalm 110
We see him striking the ten bad spies dead on the spot and condemning the Israelites who refuse to believe him to die in the desert without ever entering into his rest.
Does that sound like Jesus?
We saw Ananias and Sapphira drop dead on the spot when they lied to him.
Does that sound like Jesus?
We are told by Jesus himself not to blaspheme him because he won't forgive for two ages. Does that sound like Jesus?
The third person of the trinity is a formidable foe when he is on our side and fighting for us. Doors will open and people will fall at our right hand and left but it will not touch us.
"I will send my terror ahead of you and create panic among all the people whose lands you invade. I will make all your enemies turn and run. Ex 23:27
But, if he decides to fight against us, Annie bar the door, because he does not look anything like Jesus. He is the God of justice and takes no hostages.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
23Your princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loves gifts, and follows after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither does the cause of the widow come to them. 24Therefore said the LORD, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of my adversaries, and avenge me of my enemies: 25And I will turn my hand on you, and purely purge away your dross, and take away all your tin:
28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed. [Isa 1]
There are a number of free sites that offer dozen of different versions
You can do a key word search in any version.
The Holman version has 573 instances where the spirit is mentioned.
I could not see any thing that would remotely support the trinity.
I found this interesting
Then Micaiah said, "Therefore, hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and the whole heavenly host was standing by Him at His right hand and at His left hand. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab to march up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' So one was saying this and another was saying that.
21 "Then a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD, and said, 'I will entice him.'
22 "The LORD asked him, 'How?'
"He said, 'I will go and become a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.'
"Then He said, 'You will certainly entice him and prevail. Go and do that.'
23 "You see, the LORD has put a lying spirit into the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has pronounced disaster against you."
Jesus spends a lot of his ministry casting out demons.
Demons act like persons and even have names.
Then Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" "My name is Legion," he replied, "for we are many."
--Mark 5:9
Obviously things go on in the spirit world that we might not quite understand.
Legion says 'my name' and then says 'we.'
There are hundreds of instances where God says he will pour out his spirit,
or put a portion of his spirit on.....
Other than the personification of God
I personally have a hard time personifying God's spirit.
Is that a personification of Legion, the demon spirit in Mat 5:9?
Maybe spirit behaves differently than denser matter?
I have felt the Spirit's mantle on my shoulders. Once I felt it. It had weight and gave warmth.
"My name is Legion," he replied, "for we are many."
You mean a spirit that is many in one?
I'm shocked and surprised!
Look, spirits can think and talk, too.
"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"
--Mat 8:29
No I mean many spirits who speak as one.
Molly, outside of your interpretation of what you read and believe you have given not one peice of evidence of a 3 in 1 trinity (blessed or other wise). You cannot admit it because you really believe it, and I honor your belief.
Neither the OT writers or the NT be it Jesus, Peter, James, Jude, or Paul, or the Revelation of Jesus Christ explain or reveal in word or in outright language any speak of a trinity of persons of 3 in 1, a blessed trinity.
You believe and you claim you found within the Bible the teaching of a trinity, but out side of how you understand what is written, other than showing that the power of the Lord God working by and through His Spirit, which I believe He does, you have absolutely no written evidence.
Believe the trinity belief, I can honor that, but please stop trying to prove such a belief of 3 persons in 1 (a trinity) without actual words of scripture to identify such a teaching. :HeartThrob:
:iagree:
The words of Jesus himself--
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.--Mat 28:19
This may cause controversy for you Molly, but it could justify why the teaching is prevalent. You say you got all your belief of a trinity from the Bible, but you have yet to show your evidence where the Bible speaks of such a trinity belief.
Matthew 28:19 ---"the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"
The early Church historian Eusebius appears to quote from a different manuscript than any we presently have. Eighteen times between the years 300 and 336-C.E. he cited Matthew 28:19, 20 as: 'Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you.'
It is interesting that the traditional Trinitarian reading of Matthew 28:19 does not appear in Eusebius' writings until after the Council of Nicaea, wherein the Trinity began to formally be held as official doctrine. So, evidence strongly indicates that this is a spurious scripture inserted by later Trinitarians, in the same vein as 1 John 5:7-8.
Quote from: Molly on June 26, 2013, 03:09:20 AM
The words of Jesus himself--
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.--Mat 28:19
Not in the original text. The trinitarins added the Father and Holy Spirit.
Acts 4
12 No one else can save us. Indeed, we can be saved only by the power of the one named Jesus and not by any other person."
:dsunny: Glory very good.
Oh great. Call our Bible corrupt and shout, "Glory." Nice.
Nevermind that you are wrong. Or are you calling these early church fathers 'trinitarans'?
Trinitarian expressions which link together the names of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit occurred very early in the History of the Christian Church. Two examples appear in the New Testament: 2 Corinthians 13:14 and Matthew 28:19. The context of 2 Corinthians 13:14 (verse 13 in the Vulgate), which is the close of a letter, suggests the church's conjunction of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit may have originated as a doxological formula; while the context of Matthew 28:19, the Great Commission, shows that the verbal conjunction of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit was used early on as a baptismal formula.
This triadic pattern is even more marked in the glimpses available of the early Church's liturgy and day-to-day catechetical practice.[1] The oldest extant work in which the word "Trinity" itself (Greek Trias, triados) is used to refer to Father, Son and Holy Spirit is Theophilus of Antioch's 2nd-century To Autolycus.
First half of second century or late first century: Didache
This source uses the gospel of Matthew only and no other known gospel, and thus it must have been written before the four-gospel canon had become widespread in the churches, i.e. before the second half of the 2nd century when Tatian produced the Diatessaron.[4] Given its literary dependence on the Gospel of Matthew, it is not surprising that the Didache follows the Gospel of Matthew in designating the Trinitarian formula as a baptismal formula:
After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water.... If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. —Didache 7:1[5][/b]
Polycarp was martyred in Smyrna (where he was also Bishop) in the year 155. It is said by Irenaeus of Lyons that he was a pupil of the Apostle John. In his final prayer before his martyrdom, he "praises, glorifies, and blesses" the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit:
For this cause, yea and for all things, I praise Thee, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, through the eternal and heavenly High-priest, Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, through whom with Him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now [and ever] and for the ages to come. Amen. —Martyrdom of Polycarp 14:3[8
169-181: Theophilus of Antioch
Theophilus of Antioch's Ad Autolycum is the oldest extant work that uses the actual word "Trinity" to refer to God, his Word and his Wisdom. The context is a discussion of the first three days of creation in Genesis 1-3:
It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place.... The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity, God, his Word, and his Wisdom. —To Autolycus 2:15[9]
And, so forth...
Mat 28:19--All these Bibles got it wrong according to Micah and MLPS? Imagine that.
New International Version (©2011)
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
New Living Translation (©2007)
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
English Standard Version (©2001)
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
International Standard Version (©2012)
Therefore, as you go, disciple people in all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit,
NET Bible (©2006)
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
"Therefore go disciple all the nations and baptize them in the name of The Father and The Son and The Spirit of Holiness."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
So wherever you go, make disciples of all nations: Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:
American King James Version
Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
American Standard Version
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
Douay-Rheims Bible
Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Darby Bible Translation
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit;
English Revised Version
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost:
Webster's Bible Translation
Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Weymouth New Testament
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations; baptize them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit;
World English Bible
Go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Young's Literal Translation
having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had accepted God's message, they sent Peter and John there. 15 As soon as they arrived, they prayed for these new believers to receive the Holy Spirit. 16 The Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them, for they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John laid their hands upon these believers, and they received the Holy Spirit.
--Acts 8
Quote from: Molly on June 26, 2013, 04:44:54 AM
Mat 28:19--All these Bibles got it wrong according to Micah and MLPS? Imagine that.
New International Version (©2011)
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
New Living Translation (©2007)
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
English Standard Version (©2001)
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
International Standard Version (©2012)
Therefore, as you go, disciple people in all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit,
NET Bible (©2006)
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
"Therefore go disciple all the nations and baptize them in the name of The Father and The Son and The Spirit of Holiness."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
So wherever you go, make disciples of all nations: Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:
American King James Version
Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
American Standard Version
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
Douay-Rheims Bible
Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Darby Bible Translation
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit;
English Revised Version
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost:
Webster's Bible Translation
Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Weymouth New Testament
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations; baptize them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit;
World English Bible
Go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Young's Literal Translation
having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
HOW do you they didn't? And besides you said there needs to be 2 or 3 witnesses, I agree. Can you supply another verse of scripture that has a witness of what is stated in Matt.? If not, then just maybe it s not a valid verse. I understand that the Bible is the witness within itself.
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation.
21 For not by the will of man was prophecy carried on at any time, but, being carried on by holy spirit, holy men of God speak.
Quote from: MicahHOW do you they didn't?
1) Because your theory has been thoroughly debunked by the experts
2)Because Mat 28:19 appears in the writings and practices of the earliest church fathers
3)Because the church fathers use the word 'trinity' as preserved in their writings by the mid second century ad, one of them a disciple of the Apostle John.
4)Because I trust God to preserve his Bible
5)Because given the choice between the Bible of God and the Bible of Micah--well, there's just no choice, sorry.
Quote from: Molly on June 26, 2013, 05:55:17 AM
Quote from: MicahHOW do you they didn't?
1) Because your theory has been thoroughly debunked by the experts
2)Because Mat 28:19 appears in the writings and practices of the earliest church fathers
3)Because the church fathers use the word 'trinity' as preserved in their writings by the mid second century ad, one of them a disciple of the Apostle John.
4)Because I trust God to preserve his Bible
5)Because given the choice between the Bible of God and the Bible of Micah--well, there's just no choice, sorry.
Maybe it's the Bible of Molly that lacks witness. Can you find the word progression of Matt. in your Bible? And if not why not? Where is YOUR Bible verse that supplies a witness to your belief. And if you look closely YLT is in () Mat 28:19 having gone, then, disciple all the nations,
(baptizing them--to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,
) those ( ) are significant.
Besides Molly you have shown not evidence for your trinity theory or even proof for a trinity theory. And I am just using reference:
The following list of interpolations is taken from notes by Professor C. Tischendorf, based on the Sinaitic Manuscript which he discovered at the foot of Mount Sinai. There are many others, but those contained in this list seem to be the only ones which materially change the meaning of the texts in which they appear. Although some have contested the exclusion of these, individuals have deemed it wise to delete these from their Bible:
Micah, you have your second witness at the baptism of Jesus.
All three are there--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
If you want to rewrite the Bible, go for it.
But, don't expect me to buy it.
Quote from: Molly on June 26, 2013, 08:01:42 AM
Micah, you have your second witness at the baptism of Jesus.
All three are there--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
If you want to rewrite the Bible, go for it.
But, don't expect me to buy it.
So you are buying all the words of the bible such as hell (a place of literal fire) and forever (of which there was no concept)? Yahweh allows most people to be lead into strong delusion and trinitarians are under the strong delusion to believe a lie.
I have the Bible in Hebrew and Greek.
It's very easy to read the Bible in original languages these days.
If one wants.
You can be your own translator.
But, then you will see, it's not so easy to translate the concept and intention as it is to translate the word.
Well, I find it most unbelievable that the writers of the Bible, inspired by the Holy Spirit, felt that such a doctrine of a 3 in 1 blessed trinity, would be left to speculation and interpretation, rather than writing out right of such a belief.
I only continue this discussion because if those who believe such a teaching are unable to show a 3 in 1 theory of 3 in 1 persons, blessed trinity. why continue?
The Holy Spirit is no where spoken of or mentioned as a person(other than speculation and interpretation and that quite vague) God is not a man (Num. 23:19)
The trinity believers show Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
as their proof[even though it may be questionable the passage was in the original] still it reads "...IN THE NAME..."
which tells me all three have the same name.....and for me that name is Jehovah, Jesus, LORD and again I show Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
as well as Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
There in plain speak two witnesses, without question of what is meant. Can a trinity believer show in plain text( without speculation and interpretation ) at the least 2 witness where there is a 3 in 1 blessed trinity?
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.
--Deut 6:4
Remember the Hebrews used their alphabet to count, as did the Greeks.
That's why Jesus is the alpha and the omega, the first and last letters of the alphabet.
But, here the word, 'one,' is 'echad' in the Hebrew.
"one" [God]
H259
אחד
'echâd
ekh-awd'
A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
It comes from the word "to unify."
It's the same word as used in this verse:
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
--Genesis 2:24
"one flesh"--uses the same word, 'echad' for 'one.'
Of course we understand that husband and wife and two people in two separate bodies.
Yet, we can see how their bodies belong to each other in marriage.
And, more, I am sure that something supernatural happens to join them in flesh and spirit, which is why adultery is so awful.
So, since we're doing our own translations, here's mine for Deut 6:4
mollyBible--
Listen intelligently, you who would rule as God, YHWH elohiym is a united YHWH.
There was a disciple in Damascus named Ananias. And the Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias!"
"Here I am, Lord!" he said.
11 "Get up and go to the street called Straight," the Lord said to him, "to the house of Judas, and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, since he is praying there. 12 In a vision[a] he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and placing his hands on him so he can regain his sight."
13 "Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard from many people about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And he has authority here from the chief priests to arrest all who call on Your name."
15 But the Lord said to him, "Go! For this man is My chosen instrument to take My name to Gentiles, kings, and the Israelites. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for My name!"
17 So Ananias left and entered the house. Then he placed his hands on him and said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road you were traveling, has sent me so that you can regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
18 At once something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he got up and was baptized. 19 And after taking some food, he regained his strength.
Saul Proclaiming the Messiah
Saul was with the disciples in Damascus for some days. 20 Immediately he began proclaiming Jesus in the synagogues: "He is the Son of God."
Wonderful dajomaco !!!
One of my favorite scriptures ! there is lots of revelation of Jesus Christ by the Works of Holy Spirit of God the Father in this !
Saul /Paul was given the same ''gift'' of faith Peter recieved calling Jesus Christ the SON OF GOD !
it was not flesh and blood that reveled this to him but the Father giving living works ,
that is the seal of God ! a measure of faith , and what we do with it is ask for increase , more faith , hope and LOVE !
not bury it in our earth [dead works ] And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
simon , means hearing , faith comings by hearing what the Spirit of God is saying , the spoken word as we are asked , called by His Spirit and truth to come unto Him that we might have LIFE in us
this rock solid truth is the revelation that Peter [now a new name and living stone ] would HELP in building up the true church / Body of Christ , lifting it up , we are to LIFT UP and build up one another in Jesus Christ Holy name into the heavenlies , no name under heaven by which we MUST be saved .
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Saul went from the name asked and of the old covenant priesthood to the new name Paul meaning small
shall become the greatest of server in the new covenant priesthood
the scales that fell off his eyes , were of the old levitical priesthood [Leviathan Job 41 the king over all the childreen of pride , the slaughter of bulls and goats , but Saul was slaying Gods lambs , the new covenant this is why Jesus said , Saul why are you persecuting ME ! HIS BODY was being built up a rasing up even than into new Life
God bless
I agree. I believe I will be saying the same thing, Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
"this rock solid truth is the revelation" the revelation was "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. [/b]"
Like I said I probably said the same thing as you rosered :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 26, 2013, 07:19:58 PM
I agree. I believe I will be saying the same thing, Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
"this rock solid truth is the revelation" the revelation was "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. [/b]"
Like I said I probably said the same thing as you rosered :dsunny:
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
I know it was a big day for Paul, realizing that Jesus the son of God
was his LORD.
I think in the quite of the Night he put two and two together and was shocked
that he and his Temple brothers killed the Christ.
ISAIAH 36
Sennacherib Threatens Jerusalem
4 Then the Assyrian king's chief of staff told them to give this message to Hezekiah:
"This is what the great king of Assyria says: What are you trusting in that makes you so confident? 5 Do you think that mere words can substitute for military skill and strength? Who are you counting on, that you have rebelled against me? 6 On Egypt? If you lean on Egypt, it will be like a reed that splinters beneath your weight and pierces your hand. Pharaoh, the king of Egypt, is completely unreliable!
7 "But perhaps you will say to me, 'We are trusting in the Lord our God!' But isn't he the one who was insulted by Hezekiah? Didn't Hezekiah tear down his shrines and altars and make everyone in Judah and Jerusalem worship only at the altar here in Jerusalem?
8 "I'll tell you what! Strike a bargain with my master, the king of Assyria. I will give you 2,000 horses if you can find that many men to ride on them! 9 With your tiny army, how can you think of challenging even the weakest contingent of my master's troops, even with the help of Egypt's chariots and charioteers? 10 What's more, do you think we have invaded your land without the Lord's direction? The Lord himself told us, 'Attack this land and destroy it!'"
11 Then Eliakim, Shebna, and Joah said to the Assyrian chief of staff, "Please speak to us in Aramaic, for we understand it well. Don't speak in Hebrew,[d] for the people on the wall will hear."
12 But Sennacherib's chief of staff replied, "Do you think my master sent this message only to you and your master? He wants all the people to hear it, for when we put this city under siege, they will suffer along with you. They will be so hungry and thirsty that they will eat their own dung and drink their own urine."
13 Then the chief of staff stood and shouted in Hebrew to the people on the wall, "Listen to this message from the great king of Assyria! 14 This is what the king says: Don't let Hezekiah deceive you. He will never be able to rescue you. 15 Don't let him fool you into trusting in the Lord by saying, 'The Lord will surely rescue us. This city will never fall into the hands of the Assyrian king!'
16 "Don't listen to Hezekiah! These are the terms the king of Assyria is offering: Make peace with me—open the gates and come out. Then each of you can continue eating from your own grapevine and fig tree and drinking from your own well. 17 Then I will arrange to take you to another land like this one—a land of grain and new wine, bread and vineyards.
18 "Don't let Hezekiah mislead you by saying, 'The Lord will rescue us!' Have the gods of any other nations ever saved their people from the king of Assyria? 19 What happened to the gods of Hamath and Arpad? And what about the gods of Sepharvaim? Did any god rescue Samaria from my power? 20 What god of any nation has ever been able to save its people from my power? So what makes you think that the Lord can rescue Jerusalem from me?"
21 But the people were silent and did not utter a word because Hezekiah had commanded them, "Do not answer him."
22 Then Eliakim son of Hilkiah, the palace administrator; Shebna the court secretary; and Joah son of Asaph, the royal historian, went back to Hezekiah. They tore their clothes in despair, and they went in to see the king and told him what the Assyrian chief of staff had said.
ISAIAH 37
And it came to pass, when king Hezekiah heard it, that he rent his clothes, and covered himself with sackcloth, and went into the house of the Lord.
2 And he sent Eliakim, who was over the household, and Shebna the scribe, and the elders of the priests covered with sackcloth, unto Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz.
3 And they said unto him, Thus saith Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and of blasphemy: for the children are come to the birth, and there is not strength to bring forth.
4 It may be the Lord thy God will hear the words of Rabshakeh, whom the king of Assyria his master hath sent to reproach the living God, and will reprove the words which the Lord thy God hath heard: wherefore lift up thy prayer for the remnant that is left.
5 So the servants of king Hezekiah came to Isaiah.
6 And Isaiah said unto them, Thus shall ye say unto your master, Thus saith the Lord, Be not afraid of the words that thou hast heard, wherewith the servants of the king of Assyria have blasphemed me.
7 Behold, I will send a blast upon him, and he shall hear a rumour, and return to his own land; and I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land.
8 So Rabshakeh returned, and found the king of Assyria warring against Libnah: for he had heard that he was departed from Lachish.
9 And he heard say concerning Tirhakah king of Ethiopia, He is come forth to make war with thee. And when he heard it, he sent messengers to Hezekiah, saying,
10 Thus shall ye speak to Hezekiah king of Judah, saying, Let not thy God, in whom thou trustest, deceive thee, saying, Jerusalem shall not be given into the hand of the king of Assyria.
11 Behold, thou hast heard what the kings of Assyria have done to all lands by destroying them utterly; and shalt thou be delivered?
12 Have the gods of the nations delivered them which my fathers have destroyed, as Gozan, and Haran, and Rezeph, and the children of Eden which were in Telassar?
13 Where is the king of Hamath, and the king of Arphad, and the king of the city of Sepharvaim, Hena, and Ivah?
14 And Hezekiah received the letter from the hand of the messengers, and read it: and Hezekiah went up unto the house of the Lord, and spread it before the Lord.
15 And Hezekiah prayed unto the Lord, saying,
16 O Lord of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.
17 Incline thine ear, O Lord, and hear; open thine eyes, O Lord, and see: and hear all the words of Sennacherib, which hath sent to reproach the living God.
18 Of a truth, Lord, the kings of Assyria have laid waste all the nations, and their countries,
19 And have cast their gods into the fire: for they were no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone: therefore they have destroyed them.
20 Now therefore, O Lord our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the Lord, even thou only.
21 Then Isaiah the son of Amoz sent unto Hezekiah, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Whereas thou hast prayed to me against Sennacherib king of Assyria:
22 This is the word which the Lord hath spoken concerning him; The virgin, the daughter of Zion, hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee.
23 Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.
24 By thy servants hast thou reproached the Lord, and hast said, By the multitude of my chariots am I come up to the height of the mountains, to the sides of Lebanon; and I will cut down the tall cedars thereof, and the choice fir trees thereof: and I will enter into the height of his border, and the forest of his Carmel.
25 I have digged, and drunk water; and with the sole of my feet have I dried up all the rivers of the besieged places.
26 Hast thou not heard long ago, how I have done it; and of ancient times, that I have formed it? now have I brought it to pass, that thou shouldest be to lay waste defenced cities into ruinous heaps.
27 Therefore their inhabitants were of small power, they were dismayed and confounded: they were as the grass of the field, and as the green herb, as the grass on the housetops, and as corn blasted before it be grown up.
28 But I know thy abode, and thy going out, and thy coming in, and thy rage against me.
29 Because thy rage against me, and thy tumult, is come up into mine ears, therefore will I put my hook in thy nose, and my bridle in thy lips, and I will turn thee back by the way by which thou camest.
30 And this shall be a sign unto thee, Ye shall eat this year such as groweth of itself; and the second year that which springeth of the same: and in the third year sow ye, and reap, and plant vineyards, and eat the fruit thereof.
31 And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward:
32 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the Lord of hosts shall do this.
33 Therefore thus saith the Lord concerning the king of Assyria, He shall not come into this city, nor shoot an arrow there, nor come before it with shields, nor cast a bank against it.
34 By the way that he came, by the same shall he return, and shall not come into this city, saith the Lord.
35 For I will defend this city to save it for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.
36 Then the angel of the Lord went forth, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.
37 So Sennacherib king of Assyria departed, and went and returned, and dwelt at Nineveh.
38 And it came to pass, as he was worshipping in the house of Nisroch his god, that Adrammelech and Sharezer his sons smote him with the sword; and they escaped into the land of Armenia: and Esarhaddon his son reigned in his stead.
Behold, I will send a blast upon him, and he shall hear a rumour, and return to his own land; and I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land.
--Isa 37
"a blast"
H7307
רוּח
rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).
Meet YHWH RUACH, the Holy Spirit, Holder of the double edged sword in his hand, that kills and gives life.
The fear of YHWH is the beginning of knowledge; But the foolish despise wisdom and instruction. [Prov 1:7]
Gen 26:35 KJV - Which were a grief of mind[7307] unto Isaac and to Rebekah.
Gen 41:8 KJV - And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit[7307] was troubled ; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt, and all the wise men thereof: and Pharaoh told them his dream; but [there was] none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh.
Num 5:14 KJV - And the spirit[7307] of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled : or if the spirit[7307] of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled :
Are these the 3rd person of the blessed trinity?
There are many spirits.
That's why Jesus says, once I sweep out the house and make it clean, if you leave it empty, the evil spirit will return with all his friends.
And, the man will be in worse shape than when he began.
My opinion--translation from the mollyBible
And you will know them by their fruits. for the fruits of THE Spirit are:
Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfullness, Gentleness, Self Control
Hmmm the spirit you are claiming is the 3rd person of the trinity sounds more like a lying spirit (he shall hear a rumor). Are kindness and gentleness the two sides of the sword that he, He, it wields? "I bring you peace, now die". :LH:
:sigh:
Here's the King James translation of that story:
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
--Mat 12
Molly you take up a great deal of space with your answers which have failed (for me anyway) in every way to prove the verses you exhibit as the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit to a entity/person outside of how YOU Molly(and your bible) interpret or speculate what a verse says.
You admit, I think, that the word trinity(and "blessed trinity" certainly is not in (my)Bible, nor is it explained as such. Only in a hymn you produced. You must have to admit that the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in the Bible as a person(if you have found such evidence) please print it. It is nowhere in (my) Bible written "God the Holy Spirit."
Other than Matt. 28:19 you have not produced any other verse where I can read that formula of words, in that order.
All you offer taking up much space are verses that prove that the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit is the power which the Lord God uses to do His work be that for good or evil.
I believe the Holy Spirit/Spirit of God is the energy/power that He uses to accomplish His work, He baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire both of which are out from the Lord God. The Holy Spirit is very real and very real in my life today. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 27, 2013, 04:28:25 PM
And you will know them by their fruits. for the fruits of THE Spirit are:
Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfullness, Gentleness, Self Control
Hmmm the spirit you are claiming is the 3rd person of the trinity sounds more like a lying spirit (he shall hear a rumor). Are kindness and gentleness the two sides of the sword that he, He, it wields? "I bring you peace, now die". :LH:
:sigh:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 27, 2013, 04:28:25 PM
And you will know them by their fruits. for the fruits of THE Spirit are:
Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfullness, Gentleness, Self Control
Hmmm the spirit you are claiming is the 3rd person of the trinity sounds more like a lying spirit (he shall hear a rumor). Are kindness and gentleness the two sides of the sword that he, He, it wields? "I bring you peace, now die". :LH:
:sigh:
If you would look up that word for 'rumour' in the Hebrew, you would see it sounds like no such thing. In the mollyBible it is translated as, 'He will hear a stunning and devastating news report"--namely, that 185,000 of his men had just been struck dead in their camp by the mighty God of Israel.
The fruit of the Spirit given to us?
Now maybe you are just beginning to understand the meaning and import of reconciliation? Maybe? Just a little bit?
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now there is the POWER of Almighty God Jehovah! Praise the Name Jesus! :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny:
Quote from: Molly on June 27, 2013, 05:01:04 PM
The fruit of the Spirit given to us?
Now maybe you are just beginning to understand the meaning and import of reconciliation? Maybe? Just a little bit?
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
I really don't know what you're saying here?
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 27, 2013, 05:14:46 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 27, 2013, 05:01:04 PM
The fruit of the Spirit given to us?
Now maybe you are just beginning to understand the meaning and import of reconciliation? Maybe? Just a little bit?
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
I really don't know what you're saying here?
What do you think the word, reconciliation, means? Why is it necessary? Who is being reconciled to whom on the cross? Why would God want to do this?
You can't understand the New Testament unless you read the Old Testament.
It's all one book, written by the same Person. Would you read only one half of a book?
"It's all one book, written by the same Person." Clarify please. Thanks
When did God start the reconciling process? When was the lamb slain? Reconciling is necessary because of the darkness of mans mind, and you who were formerly enemies in your mind.
You can't understand the old testament unless you read it through the lens of Jesus the exact imprint of the Father, the exact representation of His character. even to this day their minds are veiled when they read Moses.
No one ever answers my questions.
Here's a definition of reconcile to perhaps help a little bit:
"reconcile"
1. To reestablish a close relationship, as in marriage:
Can only one party reconcile himself? Does that mean that a reconciliation happens unilaterally, or does the other party also have to reconcile for it to take effect?
Reconcile....G604 apokatallassō to reconcile fully: from G2644 katallassō to change mutually, that is, (figuratively) to compound a difference: - reconcile.
"Can only one party reconcile himself?" The Lord God will not reconcile[ to change mutually] Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not;
"Does that mean that a reconciliation happens unilaterally, or does the other party also have to reconcile for it to take effect? No.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not;
Always the relationship Molly always reconciling
Some one told me years ago , the Old testament was God testifying of His Son and the new testament is the Son testifying of His Father , that simple
never forgot that after all these years 10 or more :girlheart:
God bless you all
Quote from: rosered on June 27, 2013, 06:14:14 PM
Always the relationship Molly always reconciling
Some one told me years ago , the Old testament was God testifying of His Son and the new testament is the Son testifying of His Father , that simple
never forgot that after all these years 10 or more :girlheart:
God bless you all
:dsunny: :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 27, 2013, 06:12:33 PM
Reconcile....G604 apokatallassō to reconcile fully: from G2644 katallassō to change mutually, that is, (figuratively) to compound a difference: - reconcile.
"Can only one party reconcile himself?" The Lord God will not reconcile[ to change mutually] Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not;
"Does that mean that a reconciliation happens unilaterally, or does the other party also have to reconcile for it to take effect? No.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not;
Hi Micah and Molly and Red Hot ,
The only thing I can say on this is God is the God of the living only
and the Lord Jesus Christ come to be the Lord / Master of the dead and the Living
this is the reconciling relationship to me
Jesus Christ the Lamb of God and Son of God is raising the dead to Life again into Himself By the same
Holy Spirit and Fire for His Father the GOD OF THE LIVING this glory is shared , ALL IN ALL IS NO DEATH/sin period
the purpose of the Cross of Christ
Jhn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. GLORY Strong's G1391 - doxa
1) opinion, judgment, view
2) opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone
a) in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting in praise, honour, and glory
3) splendour, brightness
a) of the moon, sun, stars
b) magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace
c) majesty
1) a thing belonging to God
a) the kingly majesty which belongs to him as supreme ruler, majesty in the sense of the absolute perfection of the deity
2) a thing belonging to Christ
a) the kingly majesty of the Messiah
b) the absolutely perfect inward or personal excellency of Christ; the majesty
3) of the angels
a) as apparent in their exterior brightness
4) a most glorious condition, most exalted state
a) of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth
b) the glorious condition of blessedness into which is appointed and promised that true Christians shall enter after their Saviour's return from heaven
I think they definitions are a little bit lacking , but with human terms and words its a hard thing to express this Glory of God :HeartThrob:
Strong's G1392 - doxazō
1) to think, suppose, be of opinion
2) to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate
3) to honour, do honour to, hold in honour
4) to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour
a) to impart glory to something, render it excellent
b) to make renowned, render illustrious
1) to cause the dignity and worth of some person or thing to become manifest and acknowledged
God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. This word implies a mutual change. That means that both parties have to reconcile [change something] for the word reconcile to take effect.
"reconcile"
G2644
καταλλάσσω
katallassō
kat-al-las'-so
From G2596 and G236; to change mutually, that is, (figuratively) to compound a difference: - reconcile.
Who is being reconciled to whom in 2 Cor 5: 19? Are both parties being reconciled in that verse?
And why is reconciliation even needed?
You don't have a reconciliation if only one party agrees to reconcile, do you?
Quote from: Molly on June 27, 2013, 06:50:48 PM
God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. This word implies a mutual change. That means that both parties have to reconcile [change something] for the word reconcile to take effect.
"reconcile"
G2644
καταλλάσσω
katallassō
kat-al-las'-so
From G2596 and G236; to change mutually, that is, (figuratively) to compound a difference: - reconcile.
Who is being reconciled to whom in 2 Cor 5: 19? Are both parties being reconciled in that verse?
And why is reconciliation even needed?
You don't have a reconciliation if only one party agrees to reconcile, do you?
Somthing ReFormer said , Jesus wants His body Back , Jesus is raising the dead , its His body that is being reconciled to the Living God again
John 12 ;32 If I be lifed up from the earth will draw all men into Me , the earth bodies of death
lifted up
Lexicon Results Strong's G5312 - hypsoō ὑψόω
Transliteration
hypsoō
Pronunciation
hü-pso'-ō (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
From ὕψος (G5311)
TDNT Reference
8:606,1241
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to lift up on high, to exalt
2) metaph.
a) to raise to the very summit of opulence and prosperity
b) to exalt, to raise to dignity, honour and happiness
So I am to surmise that in the "mollybible" we will not find....Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not;?
I really like the Bible I read and study and it reads that "I am the LORD, I change not;" so you have again brought forth another theory. At least in my opinion. :dsunny:
God was in Christ.
We can get real heavy into English grammar here, as an object lesson.
Christ was the container. Hebrews 1 "He is the radiance of the Father's glory and exact representation of His nature"
Col 1 "For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him"
Col 2 "He is the fulness of the deity in bodily form"
Why doesnt it say, "The Anointed One was God reconciling the world unto Himself." Christ means Anointed One.
Anointed with what? Anointed with God? Anointed with the Spirit of God?
When did Jesus receive the Spirit without measure? Clearly it was after His resurrection. "He that believes in me out of his innermost being shall spring a fountain of living water. In this he was speaking of the holy spirit which was to be given to all those who believe- but the spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (johns gospel chapter 7 I think)
Jesus had to be glorified before he could receive the spirit without measure.
"This same Jesus whom you crucified has been raised from the dead and raised to the right hand of His Father where he received the Holy Spirit and poured forth that which you do now both see and hear."
IMO All the fulness of God did not dwell in Jesus until after He was resurrected and exalted and glorified.
We will not be "filled up to all the fulness of God(Eph 3)"until we are resurrected and glorified.
How does Jesus not know the exact day or the hour(No man know the hour not even the Son, but only the Father(Mt24) .
Was God "in Jesus"? Clearly He was. Was Jesus God? Logically it follows that if Jesus was God as he walked the earth either he was under severe restraints upon his power or He would not have said, "I have a task to do and Oh how I am constrained until it is accomplished".
He knew that after His resurrection He would be glorified and anointed with "All the fulness of God"- He would become "the fountainhead of the spirit of God".
Now, these thoughts do not prove anything about the construction of the deity(Father Son SPirit)- they just raise interesting questions that the major doctrinal positions all have trouble dealing with completely, and the reason for saying that will follow in my next post.
Quote from: rosered on June 27, 2013, 06:59:35 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 27, 2013, 06:50:48 PM
God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. This word implies a mutual change. That means that both parties have to reconcile [change something] for the word reconcile to take effect.
"reconcile"
G2644
καταλλάσσω
katallassō
kat-al-las'-so
From G2596 and G236; to change mutually, that is, (figuratively) to compound a difference: - reconcile.
Who is being reconciled to whom in 2 Cor 5: 19? Are both parties being reconciled in that verse?
And why is reconciliation even needed?
You don't have a reconciliation if only one party agrees to reconcile, do you?
Somthing ReFormer said , Jesus wants His body Back , Jesus is raising the dead , its His body that is being reconciled to the Living God again
Something really remarkable was happening on the cross. I can't even put it into words. Maybe someone can.
The beloved Son in a man's body carrying every sin known to man before the most Holy God to whom he is the most beloved. What could happen?
I will forgive their iniquities and I will remember their sins no more. [Jer 31:34]
Quote from: eaglesway on June 27, 2013, 07:18:44 PM
God was in Christ.
We can get real heavy into English grammar here, as an object lesson.
Christ was the container. Hebrews 1 "He is the radiance of the Father's glory and exact representation of His nature"
Col 1 "For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him"
Col 2 "He is the fulness of the deity in bodily form"
Why doesnt it say, "The Anointed One was God reconciling the world unto Himself." Christ means Anointed One.
Anointed with what? Anointed with God? Anointed with the Spirit of God?
When did Jesus receive the Spirit without measure? Clearly it was after His resurrection. "He that believes in me out of his innermost being shall spring a fountain of living water. In this he was speaking of the holy spirit which was to be given to all those who believe- but the spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (johns gospel chapter 7 I think)
Jesus had to be glorified before he could receive the spirit without measure.
"This same Jesus whom you crucified has been raised from the dead and raised to the right hand of His Father where he received the Holy Spirit and poured forth that which you do now both see and hear."
IMO All the fulness of God did not dwell in Jesus until after He was resurrected and exalted and glorified.
We will not be "filled up to all the fulness of God(Eph 3)"until we are resurrected and glorified.
How does Jesus not know the exact day or the hour(No man know the hour not even the Son, but only the Father(Mt24) .
Was God "in Jesus"? Clearly He was. Was Jesus God? Logically it follows that if Jesus was God as he walked the earth either he was under severe restraints upon his power or He would not have said, "I have a task to do and Oh how I am constrained until it is accomplished".
He knew that after His resurrection He would be glorified and anointed with "All the fulness of God"- He would become "the fountainhead of the spirit of God".
Now, these thoughts do not prove anything about the construction of the deity(Father Son SPirit)- they just raise interesting questions that the major doctrinal positions all have trouble dealing with completely, and the reason for saying that will follow in my next post.
:thumbsup: those are some thoughts I've been meaning to bring up,
Jesus was the container, the tabernacle of flesh with the Spirit of God residing in :dsunny:
:iagree: Amen John ,
AMEN !!! Let it be so , you are able to describe , Gods gifted you !!!!
a better ressurection its Jesus !! :HeartThrob: the old and New As ONE in fullness !!
Quote from: eagleswayIMO All the fulness of God did not dwell in Jesus until after He was resurrected and exalted and glorified.
We will not be "filled up to all the fulness of God(Eph 3)"until we are resurrected and glorified.
I think you are forgetting the transfiguration. I can't do that. Can you?
As the men watched, Jesus' appearance was transformed so that his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as light.--Mat 17:2
We will be like him but he is the Unique Son.
"I think you are forgetting the transfiguration. I can't do that. Can you?"
Are you forgetting it was a vision?
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
I really think this discussion has gone pretty well considering the subject matter- but I just felt led to write this.....
The spirit of division and an attitude of contention.
We can calculate our own progress in maturing as disciples of Jesus, by how well we are able to maintain a discussion in which we do not see all things the same without opening the door to a spirit of division and a contentious attitude.
Whenever we think that the subject matter we are discussing is so holy that we do not have to be holy as we discuss it, we are deceived.
What is holiness? It is just being like Jesus. It is just living the word we are discussing as we discuss it.
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome, but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Opponents must be gently instructed....." 2 Tim 2
This verse follows after the verses about "..in a wide house there are many vessels, some for noble, some for ignoble use..."
Ignoble use is unholy use. Unholy use is that which is steeped in contentiousness and disrespect.
Now supposedly we are not "opponents", "trapped in the snare of the devil"...we are brothers and sisters in Christ discussing mysteries of God- so we ought to be all the more....not quarrelsome, gentle, etc.
"The wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, then easily entreated, full of mercy and good fruit and the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace." James 3
That is of course, unless we are discussing one of the religious idols in the temple of theology :rolllol: Then we are permitted to engage different spirits in our conversations and at the point in which it is no longer a discussion.....but becomes rather the defense of "the truth"- we are now permitted to be "unholy" if necessary because after all, God, and His Gospel- are depending upon us. We can't afford to appear to be "reasonable and peaceable" or someone might get the idea that we are lukewarm about what we believe!!
What is holiness? It is kindness, gentleness, wisdom, tolerance, forbearance, peaceableness- all those things we often lose grasp of when we are "Defending the truth"- LOL
All those things that are "so much less important" than the doctrine we are defending.
I think God purposely left grey areas so that "control freaks" who need to tie it all up in a neat package, "one way or the other" -would be sent on a quest that never ends until they break down and are no longer knowledge based.....but grow into a foundation based in wisdom and understanding, and place a priority on allowing others t express their different views without getting into a spirit of contention and division.
I thank God and Praise Him with all my heart that He is not nearly as concerned about details as we are............ :laugh:
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 27, 2013, 07:45:37 PM
"I think you are forgetting the transfiguration. I can't do that. Can you?"
Are you forgetting it was a vision?
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Three witnesses, remember? All three witnessed it.
"vision'G3705
ὅραμα
horamahor'-am-ah
From G3708;
something gazed at, that is, a spectacle (especially supernatural): - sight, vision.
Oh, and it just happens to signify ...wait for it...the feast of Tabernacles!
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
--Mat 17
Quote from: eaglesway on June 27, 2013, 07:52:19 PM
we are now permitted to be "unholy" if necessary because after all, God, and His Gospel- are depending upon us. We can't afford to appear to be "reasonable and peaceable" or someone might get the idea that we are lukewarm about what we believe!!
What is holiness? It is kindness, gentleness, wisdom, tolerance, forbearance, peaceableness- all those things we often lose grasp of when we are "Defending the truth"- LOL
All those things that are "so much less important" than the doctrine we are defending.
I think God purposely left grey areas so that "control freaks" who need to tie it all up in a neat package, "one way or the other" -would be sent on a quest that never ends until they break down and are no longer knowledge based.....but grow into a foundation based in wisdom and understanding, and place a priority on allowing others t express their different views without getting into a spirit of contention and division.
Yes, I agree. And I can relate... :mblush:
Some good points. :dsunny:
Quote from: jabcat on June 27, 2013, 07:57:25 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on June 27, 2013, 07:52:19 PM
we are now permitted to be "unholy" if necessary because after all, God, and His Gospel- are depending upon us. We can't afford to appear to be "reasonable and peaceable" or someone might get the idea that we are lukewarm about what we believe!!
What is holiness? It is kindness, gentleness, wisdom, tolerance, forbearance, peaceableness- all those things we often lose grasp of when we are "Defending the truth"- LOL
All those things that are "so much less important" than the doctrine we are defending.
I think God purposely left grey areas so that "control freaks" who need to tie it all up in a neat package, "one way or the other" -would be sent on a quest that never ends until they break down and are no longer knowledge based.....but grow into a foundation based in wisdom and understanding, and place a priority on allowing others t express their different views without getting into a spirit of contention and division.
Yes, I agree. And I can relate... :mblush:
All this I learned through experience.
I once read a sign that said, "Good judgment comes from experience"
Three days later I drove by and the sign said, "Experience comes from bad judgment" :rolllol:
So I am understanding that both EW and Jab feel this discussion and thread has probably run it's course? On that I would probably agree. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
I don't mind if folks want to keep chatting, since it's been pretty civil. I don't know if anything further's going to be shown though for now. :dontknow: Quite a bit's been said.
I just agree with several of the points John made. As sort of a control freak sometimes, I can relate to the idea that God sort of empties us and then keeps us digging (and hopefully open). I've often thought, the more I seem to find out, I realize I know so very little. I'm just truly dependent on His grace and mercy. I believe we're supposed to absolutely grow in grace and knowledge, and contend for sound doctrine (as best we understand). But it's also in the big picture kind'a like Zender said - God drives the car, and He lets us play with the windows and door locks. :wink2:
I only take exception to " As sort of a control freak sometimes...." if a truth which is an absolute, and if to express that truth falls in the catalog as a control freak, then I will accept that label. I mean no offence, but discussions, debates even arguments usually either have a solid truth as the cornerstone, or an untruth or part truth.
If we all are going to embrace religion as our faith, then yes any discussion, debate, or argument will roll on and on. I/me personally do not accept religion as my faith. I believe in Christ crucified, His cleansing Blood, and that I am crucified with Christ and being baptized in Christ who is My Lord, Christ in me my hope of Glory. :HeartThrob:
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. Mat 17:3
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
And behold there appeared unto them,.... The disciples:
Moses and Elias; Moses the giver of the law, and Elias one of the chief of the prophets: one of them had been dead near a thousand and five hundred years, and the other had been caught up to heaven, about nine hundred years before this. The Jews sometimes speak of these two as together. They say (c),
"that the Shekinah never descends below, but , "Moses and Elias" ascend above.''
Yea, they expect that these two will come together in future time; for so they represent a God saying to Moses;
"Moses, as thou hast given thy life for them (the Israelites) in this world, so in time to come (the days of the Messiah) when I shall bring Elias the prophet, , "you two shall come together".''
Now they came. Luke says, they appeared "in glory": in glorious bodies, in a glory upon their bodies; like, though inferior, to the glorious body of Christ, now transfigured: that they appeared in their own real bodies, no doubt need be made; about the body of Elijah, or Elias, there is no difficulty; since he was carried soul and body to heaven, he died not, but was changed; and has ever since remained in a glorious body, in which he doubtless now appeared: and why this should not be the case of Moses, or why he should appear in another body, and not his own, I see not; for though he died, yet he was buried by the Lord, and no man ever knew the place of his sepulchre; and there was a dispute about his body, between Michael and the devil, all which are uncommon circumstances: so that it might be, that his body was, quickly after his death, raised and restored to him; or at this time, as a pledge of the resurrection of the dead, as Christ's transfiguration was of his glory. The Jews have a notion that Moses is not dead, but is ascended, and stands and ministers to God, in the highest heavens (e): the appearance of these two with Christ, was to show, that Christ is the end of the law and prophets; that there is an entire agreement between him and them, and that they have their full accomplishment in him; and also shows, that he was neither Elias, nor any of the prophets, as some took him to be; since he was distinct from them, and the chief and more glorious than any of them. If it should be asked; how came the disciples to know these two to be Moses and Elias, since they never saw them before, nor could have any statues or pictures of them, these being not allowed among the Jews; nor do the accounts of them in Scripture seem to be sufficient to direct them to such a thought; especially, since by their glorification, they must be greatly altered: it may be replied, they knew them, either by immediate divine revelation, or by the discourse that passed between them and Christ; for it follows,
talking with him.
What Moses and Elias were talking with our Lord about, is expressed by Luke; see Gill on Luke 9:31.
28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.
--Luke 9
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Who appeared in glory,.... In a very glorious manner, in most divine and beautiful forms to Christ, and to his disciples:
and spake of his decease, which he should accomplish at Jerusalem; the word, rendered "decease", is "Exodus", the name of the second book of Moses; so called from the departure of the children of Israel out of Egypt, it gives an account of; and which departure is expressed by this word, in Hebrews 11:22 and to which the allusion is here. Death is a departure out of this world, and goes by this name, 2 Peter 1:15 and so here it signifies Christ's death, or exit, which he was to make at Jerusalem; and Moses and Elias talk with him about this; the nature, manner, use, and near approach of it; and to which they might encourage him, as man. The sufferings and death of Christ were what Moses and the prophets had foretold; and these two speak of the same things now; and which must serve to confirm what Christ a few, days ago had showed his disciples, that he must go to Jerusalem, and there suffer and die. Dr. Lightfoot thinks that the ascension of Christ to heaven is contained in the word "Exodus", which was his final departure out of this world, as well as his sufferings and death; and especially if there is any, allusion to the Israelites' departure out of Egypt, which was in victory and triumph; and the rather, because "the time of his receiving up", Luke 9:51 may be thought to refer to this; and so Moses and Elias conversed with him, not only about, his sufferings and death; but his ascension, and of which also the "Exodus", or going of Elias out of this world to heaven, which was by a translation and ascension, was a figure. Some render this word, "Expedition", and think it refers to the whole affair of the redemption of Christ's people by him, from the bondage of sin, Satan, and the law, by his sufferings and death; of which the deliverance of the people of Israel out of Egypt was a lively representation: an expedition which Moses was sent upon, and accomplished: but now the discourse turns upon an expedition of greater importance, which shortly was to be accomplished at Jerusalem, where Christ was to be arraigned, and condemned, and then suffer without the gates of it, in order to obtain eternal redemption for the whole Israel of God.
Molly does Gill believe in the Trinity and by extension part of the reason you believe?
Well since Molly appears to be the only trinitarian here and she isn't going to give up her "3 in 1 blessed trinity" I agree this thread has run its course. The upside is that all of the guests here on this site have probably learned much from our discussion. So UR doesn't mean that we all agree on some things but most UR believers tend to throw out all of the traditions of men like the trinity theory. I came to this site to learn what other UR believers hold as truth and this tread is great conformation to me that the trinity theory is not believed by most UR believers. If I had been on the fence about this subject I would now be convinced that the conclusion I came to about the trinity theory before coming to Tentmaker was and is totally correct.
DuWayne
Genuinely curious what Gill thinks about UR.
Quote from: dajomaco on June 28, 2013, 12:51:42 AM
Molly does Gill believe in the Trinity and by extension part of the reason you believe?
I don't even know who Gill is or what he believes. I just thought that what he wrote about the transfiguration is beautiful.
Can you believe that in talking with Moses about his upcoming death on the cross, Jesus used the word 'exodus' ? --when he spake of his decease [exodus]--Lk 9:31
The Bible never ceases to amaze me.
"decease"G1841
εξοδος
exodusex'-od-os
From G1537 and G3598;
an exit, that is, (figuratively) death: - decease, departing.
Quote from: Molly on June 28, 2013, 06:04:52 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on June 28, 2013, 12:51:42 AM
Molly does Gill believe in the Trinity and by extension part of the reason you believe?
I don't even know who Gill is or what he believes. I just thought that what he wrote about the transfiguration is beautiful.
Can you believe that in talking with Moses about his upcoming death on the cross, Jesus used the word 'exodus' ? --when he spake of his decease [exodus]--Lk 9:31
The Bible never ceases to amaze me.
"decease"
G1841
εξοδος
exodus
ex'-od-os
From G1537 and G3598; an exit, that is, (figuratively) death: - decease, departing.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: dajomaco on June 28, 2013, 12:51:42 AM
Molly does Gill believe in the Trinity and by extension part of the reason you believe?
:iagree:
Quote from: jabcat on June 28, 2013, 06:59:42 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 28, 2013, 06:04:52 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on June 28, 2013, 12:51:42 AM
Molly does Gill believe in the Trinity and by extension part of the reason you believe?
I don't even know who Gill is or what he believes. I just thought that what he wrote about the transfiguration is beautiful.
Can you believe that in talking with Moses about his upcoming death on the cross, Jesus used the word 'exodus' ? --when he spake of his decease [exodus]--Lk 9:31
The Bible never ceases to amaze me.
"decease"
G1841
εξοδος
exodus
ex'-od-os
From G1537 and G3598; an exit, that is, (figuratively) death: - decease, departing.
:thumbsup:
Didn't every one here already know what Jesus meant with "decrease"? Luk 9:31 who having appeared in glory,
spake of his outgoing that he was about to fulfil in Jerusalem, "(YLT)
I fail to see any significance with the word "exodus."
Can you believe that Jesus used the "horama" [something gazed at] for vision?
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the
horama[something gazed at] to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
The way the Greek language is used tells us the Holy Spirit is a person.
Jesus sent "another comforter": ("allos parakletos") Jn 14:16 Greek "allos" another of the same kind. Even if you reject that Jesus is God, another of the same kind as Jesus must be a person! The Arian view would require the word "hetros" another of a different kind. So the Holy Spirit is a person who is a "comforter, helper, advocate". Used of the Holy Spirit 5 times in John 14:26; 15:26; 16:7; 14:16 and once of Christ in 1 John 2:1. When we combine this with the fact that Jesus said the Holy Spirit was another helper, Gr "allos", "another of the same kind", the personality of the Holy Spirit is reinforced even stronger. The Greek word "parakletos" that is used in all these verses was always applied to persons, not things. So the fact that both Greek words "allos" and "parakletos" TOGETHER in the same phrase in reference to Jesus is irrefutable proof that the Holy Spirit is portrayed as a person. In Acts 9:31 Christians were "walking in the fear of the Lord and the comfort of the Holy Spirit." The word, "Comfort" [parakleses] is the verb form of the noun parakletos.
Comforter, helper, advocate: "parakletos"
The word means, "lit., called to one's side, i.e., to one's aid, is primarily a verbal adjective, and suggests the capability or adaptability for giving aid. It was used in a court of justice to denote a legal assistant, counsel for the defence, an advocate; then, generally, one who pleads another's cause, an intercessor, advocate" (Comforter, W. E. Vine) For such a word to be applied to the Holy Spirit demands he is a person.
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-holy-spirit-personality-deity.htm
Quote from: Molly on June 29, 2013, 08:20:14 AM
The way the Greek language is used tells us the Holy Spirit is a person.
Jesus sent "another comforter": ("allos parakletos") Jn 14:16 Greek "allos" another of the same kind. Even if you reject that Jesus is God, another of the same kind as Jesus must be a person! The Arian view would require the word "hetros" another of a different kind. So the Holy Spirit is a person who is a "comforter, helper, advocate". Used of the Holy Spirit 5 times in John 14:26; 15:26; 16:7; 14:16 and once of Christ in 1 John 2:1. When we combine this with the fact that Jesus said the Holy Spirit was another helper, Gr "allos", "another of the same kind", the personality of the Holy Spirit is reinforced even stronger. The Greek word "parakletos" that is used in all these verses was always applied to persons, not things. So the fact that both Greek words "allos" and "parakletos" TOGETHER in the same phrase in reference to Jesus is irrefutable proof that the Holy Spirit is portrayed as a person. In Acts 9:31 Christians were "walking in the fear of the Lord and the comfort of the Holy Spirit." The word, "Comfort" [parakleses] is the verb form of the noun parakletos.
Comforter, helper, advocate: "parakletos"
The word means, "lit., called to one's side, i.e., to one's aid, is primarily a verbal adjective, and suggests the capability or adaptability for giving aid. It was used in a court of justice to denote a legal assistant, counsel for the defence, an advocate; then, generally, one who pleads another's cause, an intercessor, advocate" (Comforter, W. E. Vine) For such a word to be applied to the Holy Spirit demands he is a person.
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-holy-spirit-personality-deity.htm
The issue between trinitarians and non trinitarians is not always wheter the Holy Spirit is a person. I believe the Holy SPirit is a person....He is the Spirit of God, I just dont believe the Holy SPirit is a third person separate but somehow one with and co-equal to the Father.
How can a person not be 'separate from' another person?
"person"
2. An individual of specified character:
One way I can think of that has supernatural overtones:
the two shall become one flesh
Take a look at "person" as a word study in the Bible.
3 But Jesus deserves far more glory than Moses, just as a person who builds a house deserves more praise than the house itself. 4 For every house has a builder, but the one who built everything is God.
5 Moses was certainly faithful in God's house as a servant. His work was an illustration of the truths God would reveal later. 6 But Christ, as the Son, is in charge of God's entire house. And we are God's house, if we keep our courage and remain confident in our hope in Christ.
7 That is why the Holy Spirit says,
"Today when you hear his voice,
8 don't harden your hearts
as Israel did when they rebelled,
when they tested me in the wilderness.
9 There your ancestors tested and tried my patience,
even though they saw my miracles for forty years.
10 So I was angry with them, and I said,
'Their hearts always turn away from me.
They refuse to do what I tell them.'
11 So in my anger I took an oath:
'They will never enter my place of rest.'"
--Heb 3
The Holy Spirit is quoting himself in that passage:
10 So I was angry with them, and I said,
'Their hearts always turn away from me.
They refuse to do what I tell them.'
11 So in my anger I took an oath:
'They will never enter my place of rest.'"
--Heb 3
:doh:
Sometimes the atheists are easier to put up with because at least, with them, what you see is what you get.
But the Lord makes this strange statement before the flood:
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
--Gen 6
On the face of it, that sounds like he will only allow flesh man to live 120 year lifespan. But, we know those before the flood were living almost 1000 years. Weren't they flesh? And, after the flood, various ages, today being about average 70+ years.
So what did he mean by that? What if he meant 120 jubilee years? In that case, 120 x 50 is 6000 years!
Will the Holy Spirit only contend with flesh man for 6000 years? And, after that, the manifestation of the sons of God,--the Holy Spirit will only deal with spirit filled immortal beings?
"(14) Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. (15) But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." [Rev 22]
Thanks, Speaktruth,
That looks really interesting. I'll take a look at it.
Quote from: Molly on June 29, 2013, 06:37:43 PM
The Holy Spirit is quoting himself in that passage:
10 So I was angry with them, and I said,
'Their hearts always turn away from me.
They refuse to do what I tell them.'
11 So in my anger I took an oath:
'They will never enter my place of rest.'"
--Heb 3
This does not fly.IMO
Isn't that the way it is written, daj?
I said,
quote...........................unquote
I swore an oath,
quote............................unquote
I usually do not involve myself in long discussions; but I just read a few more of the replies to this thread and learned that my reply is #654!!! As long as I have become involved, I'll add just one more reply regarding why I have rejected the Trinity=Three persons in one God belief...
man was created a PHYSICAL person in the image and likeness of God SPIRIT Person- I do not consider man's spirit, soul, body as three separate persons.
This may be overly simplified, but it works for me.
It's true, they are not three separate persons [spirit, soul, and body]. They are three in one [within ourselves].
But, don't they act like separate persons sometimes?
And, aren't the three parts of ourselves being saved separately, one after the other, with the redemption of the body last?
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
--Rom 7
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2013, 12:41:58 AM
It's true, they are not three separate persons [spirit, soul, and body]. They are three in one [within ourselves].
But, don't they act like separate persons sometimes?
And, aren't the three parts of ourselves being saved separately, one after the other, with the redemption of the body last?
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
--Rom 7
Molly, I really hesitated before hitting the post button as I do not like involving myself in long discussions; but now I'm happy I did as your reply has given me a whole new way of looking at the "three in one"... not so much as three "persons" in one because nothing you stated would have me--at least at this point--reconsider Trinity=Three PERSONS in one God. For me, the word "person" needs much more Biblical support as per Three Persons in One God... I will read more of this thread as time allows.
Thanks for your consideration, speaktruth.
I am just myself also beginning to truly appreciate the majesty and the might of the Holy Spirit, even though I've known Him all my life.
That was an interesting post Molly. :thumbsup:
Trinity speak....body-soul- and spirit.....man has a body and a spirit which according the Bible Gen.2:7 makes a soul. :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 30, 2013, 01:45:52 AM
Trinity speak....body-soul- and spirit.....man has a body and a spirit which according the Bible Gen.2:7 makes a soul. :dsunny:
Would I not be schizophrenic if I had to decide,
who replied to your post.
Me myself or I
The Temple has three parts--the outer court, the inner court, and the Holy of Holies.
Outer court--Jesus, Savior of all men--redemption of the soul.
Inner court--the Holy Spirit--redemption of the spirit.
Holy of Holies--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--redemption of the body.
Quote from: dajomaco on June 30, 2013, 01:56:09 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 30, 2013, 01:45:52 AM
Trinity speak....body-soul- and spirit.....man has a body and a spirit which according the Bible Gen.2:7 makes a soul. :dsunny:
Would I not be schizophrenic if I had to decide,
who replied to your post.
Me myself or I
Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formeth the man--
dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils
breath of life, and the man becometh
a living creature.With out a body or a spirit...there can be no breathing creature. The human being IS a soul he was not given a soul, nor does he have soul.
Perhaps, schizophrenic may fit.
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2013, 02:02:42 AM
Outer court--Jesus, Savior of all men--redemption of the soul.
Inner court--the Holy Spirit--redemption of the spirit.
Holy of Holies--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--redemption of the body.
In the words of Ronald Reagan...."There you go again."
Molly.. thanks for the Temple three in one ... I guess I am involved and very interested... do you have scriptures that refer to the Temple and its three parts (I'm not questioning three in one... just would like some Scriptures and I could look for them, but no doubt you already have some.)
Micah... I think I understand your interpretation of Gen 2:7... but what do you do with 1 Thess 5:23? which in the Greek states ....whole spirit AND soul AND body... it seems that Paul understands man= spirit AND soul AND body ????
AND I just read three new replies that were made as I was typing this. However, my questions remain... Molly, I need Scriptures for Temple and three parts AND Micah, what do you with 1 Thess 5:23.
Outer court--Jesus, Savior of all men--redemption of the soul.
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! [Jn 1]
Therefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered outside the gate. [Heb 13:12]
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe. [1 Tim 4:10]
Inner court--the Holy Spirit--redemption of the spirit.
There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
--John 3
Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,
you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."
--Exodus 19:5,6
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
--Heb 10
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 8
Holy of Holies--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--redemption of the body
36And he spoke also a parable to them; No man puts a piece of a new garment on an old; if otherwise, then both the new makes a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agrees not with the old. 37And no man puts new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. 38But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. [Rom 8]
:banana: :banana: :banana:
We, the especially people, born from above, can enter the Holy of Holies now, even though we do not yet have our glorified bodies, through the body and blood of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.
19Having therefore, brothers, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21And having an high priest over the house of God;
22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
--Heb 10
Quote from: speaktruth on June 30, 2013, 02:11:39 AM
Molly.. thanks for the Temple three in one ... I guess I am involved and very interested... do you have scriptures that refer to the Temple and its three parts (I'm not questioning three in one... just would like some Scriptures and I could look for them, but no doubt you already have some.)
Micah... I think I understand your interpretation of Gen 2:7... but what do you do with 1 Thess 5:23? which in the Greek states ....whole spirit AND soul AND body... it seems that Paul understands man= spirit AND soul AND body ????
AND I just read three new replies that were made as I was typing this. However, my questions remain... Molly, I need Scriptures for Temple and three parts AND Micah, what do you with 1 Thess 5:23.
My friend, I believe you just better stay under the tutoring of Molly, she is in a pretty basic orthodox doctrine.
And yes the three parts of the temple is a wonderful study, and very true. You would do well to get the book by George Warnock, "The Feast of Tabernacles." for me it has been a very good study. Wore out one and had to buy another. (Just a suggestion)
As for 1 Thes. 5:23, you just go ahead and do your own research, my influence would only lead you away from the orthodox religion and it's presumptions. Besides, Molly has the 3 in 1 blessed trinity pretty well done pat. Just don't overlook that the Lord Jehovah Himself said He is One. And as far as I have found out He never retracted that statement, may the Lord bless you in your journey. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: speaktruth on June 30, 2013, 02:11:39 AM
Molly.. thanks for the Temple three in one ... I guess I am involved and very interested... do you have scriptures that refer to the Temple and its three parts (I'm not questioning three in one... just would like some Scriptures and I could look for them, but no doubt you already have some.)
Micah... I think I understand your interpretation of Gen 2:7... but what do you do with 1 Thess 5:23? which in the Greek states ....whole spirit AND soul AND body... it seems that Paul understands man= spirit AND soul AND body ????
AND I just read three new replies that were made as I was typing this. However, my questions remain... Molly, I need Scriptures for Temple and three parts AND Micah, what do you with 1 Thess 5:23.
Speaktruth, somewhere on this board is a long thread on the Temple, it was done mostly by Cardinal and Whitewings, I think, it has pictures and everything, and it was pinned. But I can't find it now. Does anyone know where it is? Jab?
Yes, Micah, YHWH elohiym is echad which means 'united' and comes from the word meaning 'to unify.'
Micah, speaking of "presumptions", my family and friends and the people with whom I do occasionally fellowship would really have a good laugh...I've been away from Religion of all sizes, shapes, colors, beliefs, etc ... for many, many years. My question to you re: 1 Thess 5:23 was a sincere attempt to learn how you deal with it... I'm always willing to learn.
Molly, I just read your last post and I already found whitewings reply on the "timelines chart" about an hour ago and printed it... I didn't see cardinal's name anywhere... it turned out to be a 7-page study...
what I was actually asking you was for OT Scriptures that actually have the words: inner court, outer court, holy of holies... I prefer studying Scripture verses in context. thanks
Quote from: speaktruth on June 30, 2013, 04:27:58 AM
Micah, speaking of "presumptions", my family and friends and the people with whom I do occasionally fellowship would really have a good laugh...I've been away from Religion of all sizes, shapes, colors, beliefs, etc ... for many, many years. My question to you re: 1 Thess 5:23 was a sincere attempt to learn how you deal with it... I'm always willing to learn.
Molly, I just read your last post and I already found whitewings reply on the "timelines chart" about an hour ago and printed it... I didn't see cardinal's name anywhere... it turned out to be a 7-page study...
what I was actually asking you was for OT Scriptures that actually have the words: inner court, outer court, holy of holies... I prefer studying Scripture verses in context. thanks
Whitewings did a great job on the tabernacle as well as Cardnial, but Warnocks book is full of OT why's and how comes with very good pictures. The study was very extentsive. Up to you though. As for Thes. perhaps some other time. Go a lookin, cause my word don't hold to much exceptence around here I'm finding out. God bless. :HeartThrob:
Speaktruth, it's the tabernacle in the wilderness where you should start your study. God told Moses , Build it according to my specifications, because it is based on a heavenly pattern. It's a huge study, and well worth the time.
I put a link to a children's model of it which shows you the three courts if you go through all the pictures. I have no idea how much you know about it but there is a lot of information online.
4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5Who serve to the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, said he, that you make all things according to the pattern showed to you in the mount. 6But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. Heb 8
http://the-tabernacle-place.com/the-tabernacle-model-kit/
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2013, 05:07:56 AM
Speaktruth, it's the tabernacle in the wilderness where you should start your study. God told Moses , Build it according to my specifications, because it is based on a heavenly pattern. It's a huge study, and well worth the time.
I put a link to a children's model of it which shows you the three courts if you go through all the pictures. I have no idea how much you know about it but there is a lot of information online.
4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5Who serve to the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, said he, that you make all things according to the pattern showed to you in the mount. 6But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. Heb 9
http://the-tabernacle-place.com/the-tabernacle-model-kit/
Thank you Molly... but, actually I do know a great deal about the tabernacle in the wilderness... for some reason I have such a great need for this "new look at three in one" and because you mentioned Temple, inner court, outer court, holy of holies, I just want the specific OT Scriptures you used regarding the "Temple, inner court, outer court, and holy of holies"... but this is enough involvement in long discussions for me... I will have more time next week to use Bible search...
God bless all your efforts...
Speaktruth, I"ve known about the tabernacle for so long that I would have to go searching through the Bible for what you are asking. If you already know a lot about it yourself, why do you ask--you must already know yourself about the three courts in the tabernacle?
"at least 50 chapters (13-Ex, 18-Lev, 13-Num, 2-Deut, 4-Heb) in the Bible tell of the construction, the ritual, the priesthood, the carrying of the tabernacle, and the meaning of it all. Also many other places in Scripture speak in figurative language concerning the tabernacle."
I'm putting this passage here as a rosetta stone to the Holy Spirit.
15 And when the ship was caught, and could not bear up into the wind, we let her drive.
16 And running under a certain island which is called Clauda, we had much work to come by the boat:
17 Which when they had taken up, they used helps, undergirding the ship; and, fearing lest they should fall into the quicksands, strake sail, and so were driven.
18 And we being exceedingly tossed with a tempest, the next day they lightened the ship;
19 And the third day we cast out with our own hands the tackling of the ship.
20 And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest lay on us, all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.
21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.
22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.
23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
--Acts 27
Jesus speaks in the plural and speaks for the Father:
John 3:11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
John 14:10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
John 7:16 Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.
John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
Echad = Unity=ONE of which we have been made partakers:
John 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Peter 1:2-4)
"partakers"
G2844
κοινωνός
koinōnos
koy-no-nos'
From G2839; a sharer, that is, associate: - companion, X fellowship, partaker, partner.
2 Thessalonians 2:14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy has begotten us again to a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith to salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. [1 Peter 1]
has begotten (us) again"
G313
αναγεννάω
anagennaō
an-ag-en-nah'-o
From G303 and G1080; to beget or (by extension) bear (again): - beget, (bear) X again.
8 He raises up the poor out of the dust, and lifts up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he has set the world on them. 9He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail. 10The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder on them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength to his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed. [1 Sam 2]
So he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts. [Zech 4:6]
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2013, 08:43:27 AM
I'm putting this passage here as a rosetta stone to the Holy Spirit.
15 And when the ship was caught, and could not bear up into the wind, we let her drive.
16 And running under a certain island which is called Clauda, we had much work to come by the boat:
17 Which when they had taken up, they used helps, undergirding the ship; and, fearing lest they should fall into the quicksands, strake sail, and so were driven.
18 And we being exceedingly tossed with a tempest, the next day they lightened the ship;
19 And the third day we cast out with our own hands the tackling of the ship.
20 And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest lay on us, all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.
21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.
22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.
23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
--Acts 17
I don't think that means what you are saying here. As you know there are no commas in the greek. But these few translations have it different, which are all trinitarian biased translations btw. Who Paul belongs to is the God, the angel belongs to the God also, Paul is not saying he belongs to the angel.
NET
For last night an angel of the God to whom I belong 1 and whom I serve 2 came to me 3
NIV ©
Last night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve stood beside me
NASB ©
"For this very night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood before me,
NLT ©
For last night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood beside me,
MSG ©
"Last night God's angel stood at my side, an angel of this God I serve,
BBE ©
For this night there came to my side an angel of the God who is my Master and whose servant I am,
NRSV ©
For last night there stood by me an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I worship,
NKJV ©
"For there stood by me this night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve,
By interpretation in the mind of man (religion), the POWER of the Lord(Jehovah) God is made a "person" an entity, separate, and actually it's own god.
I understand that the "3 persons in 1- the blessed trinity," is a religious doctrine/theory, that has been accepted by most of christianity and believing in the doctrine is certainly a persons choice.
But evidence in the Bible of such "plain spelled out words" that the Holy Spirit is a person, or that there is a "God the Holy Spirit", or that other than a formula as in Matt. 28:19 is nowhere to be found in any of the other 3 Gospels or the writings of Paul, Peter, James, Jude, and Revelation to be a witness(2 or 3) must cause one to pause, before accepting such a belief.
As it has been said by EW, whether one chooses to believe or not believe in a "trinity teaching" does not make either side less a believer in Jesus Christ the Savior of the world. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
As for myself, in my studies,(I at one time believed in it) I have not found the teaching to be validated in the 15 translations of the Bible's I own. I do not find the teaching to be a grey area or to be used by "control freaks." :HeartThrob:
2 Chronicles 32:7 "Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or discouraged because of the king of Assyria and the vast army with him, for there is a greater power with us than with him.
2 Chronicles 32:8 With him is only the arm of flesh, but with us is the LORD our God to help us and to fight our battles." And the people gained confidence from what Hezekiah the king of Judah said.
The Lord is at your right hand. He will crush kings in the day of his wrath. [Psalm 110:5]
This is referring to the Lord at the right hand of the Son in heaven, and the Son is sitting at the right hand of the Father.
This same Lord is at our right hand.
Psalm 109:31 For he stands at the right hand of the needy, to save their lives from those who would condemn them.
Numbers 10:35 Whenever the ark set out, Moses said, "Rise up, LORD! May your enemies be scattered; may your foes flee before you."
Psalm 132:8 Arise, LORD, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might.
Two. See the Two? What's inside the ark? Who wrote it?
But you will not leave in haste or go in flight; for the LORD will go before you, the God of Israel will be your rear guard. [Isa 52:12]
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 30, 2013, 05:01:19 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2013, 08:43:27 AM
I'm putting this passage here as a rosetta stone to the Holy Spirit.
15 And when the ship was caught, and could not bear up into the wind, we let her drive.
16 And running under a certain island which is called Clauda, we had much work to come by the boat:
17 Which when they had taken up, they used helps, undergirding the ship; and, fearing lest they should fall into the quicksands, strake sail, and so were driven.
18 And we being exceedingly tossed with a tempest, the next day they lightened the ship;
19 And the third day we cast out with our own hands the tackling of the ship.
20 And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest lay on us, all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.
21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.
22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.
23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
--Acts 17
I don't think that means what you are saying here. As you know there are no commas in the greek. But these few translations have it different, which are all trinitarian biased translations btw. Who Paul belongs to is the God, the angel belongs to the God also, Paul is not saying he belongs to the angel.
NET
For last night an angel of the God to whom I belong 1 and whom I serve 2 came to me 3
NIV ©
Last night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve stood beside me
NASB ©
"For this very night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood before me,
NLT ©
For last night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood beside me,
MSG ©
"Last night God's angel stood at my side, an angel of this God I serve,
BBE ©
For this night there came to my side an angel of the God who is my Master and whose servant I am,
NRSV ©
For last night there stood by me an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I worship,
NKJV ©
"For there stood by me this night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve,
I don't think you understood what I was saying there.
19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:
20 And it [the pillar of cloud] came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.
--Ex 14
Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. [John 12:35]
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2013, 06:05:10 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 30, 2013, 05:01:19 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2013, 08:43:27 AM
I'm putting this passage here as a rosetta stone to the Holy Spirit.
15 And when the ship was caught, and could not bear up into the wind, we let her drive.
16 And running under a certain island which is called Clauda, we had much work to come by the boat:
17 Which when they had taken up, they used helps, undergirding the ship; and, fearing lest they should fall into the quicksands, strake sail, and so were driven.
18 And we being exceedingly tossed with a tempest, the next day they lightened the ship;
19 And the third day we cast out with our own hands the tackling of the ship.
20 And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest lay on us, all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.
21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.
22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.
23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
--Acts 17
I don't think that means what you are saying here. As you know there are no commas in the greek. But these few translations have it different, which are all trinitarian biased translations btw. Who Paul belongs to is the God, the angel belongs to the God also, Paul is not saying he belongs to the angel.
NET
For last night an angel of the God to whom I belong 1 and whom I serve 2 came to me 3
NIV ©
Last night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve stood beside me
NASB ©
"For this very night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood before me,
NLT ©
For last night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood beside me,
MSG ©
"Last night God's angel stood at my side, an angel of this God I serve,
BBE ©
For this night there came to my side an angel of the God who is my Master and whose servant I am,
NRSV ©
For last night there stood by me an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I worship,
NKJV ©
"For there stood by me this night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve,
I don't think you understood what I was saying there.
Are you saying this angel is a person of the trinity? You said it's the Rosetta Stone for the HS. Please enlighten me.
For me Molly, you have made a rock solid and undebateable affirmation, that the power of the Lord God His Spirit/Holy Spirit, and that it's presence is 24/7 to aid in the believers walk, and a detriment to those who have not been drawn to Him. :HeartThrob:
I applaud you for your work. :dsunny:
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 30, 2013, 07:09:27 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2013, 06:05:10 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 30, 2013, 05:01:19 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2013, 08:43:27 AM
I'm putting this passage here as a rosetta stone to the Holy Spirit.
15 And when the ship was caught, and could not bear up into the wind, we let her drive.
16 And running under a certain island which is called Clauda, we had much work to come by the boat:
17 Which when they had taken up, they used helps, undergirding the ship; and, fearing lest they should fall into the quicksands, strake sail, and so were driven.
18 And we being exceedingly tossed with a tempest, the next day they lightened the ship;
19 And the third day we cast out with our own hands the tackling of the ship.
20 And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest lay on us, all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.
21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.
22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.
23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
--Acts 17
I don't think that means what you are saying here. As you know there are no commas in the greek. But these few translations have it different, which are all trinitarian biased translations btw. Who Paul belongs to is the God, the angel belongs to the God also, Paul is not saying he belongs to the angel.
NET
For last night an angel of the God to whom I belong 1 and whom I serve 2 came to me 3
NIV ©
Last night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve stood beside me
NASB ©
"For this very night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood before me,
NLT ©
For last night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood beside me,
MSG ©
"Last night God's angel stood at my side, an angel of this God I serve,
BBE ©
For this night there came to my side an angel of the God who is my Master and whose servant I am,
NRSV ©
For last night there stood by me an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I worship,
NKJV ©
"For there stood by me this night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve,
I don't think you understood what I was saying there.
Are you saying this angel is a person of the trinity? You said it's the Rosetta Stone for the HS. Please enlighten me.
I believe that is what Molly is saying.
I called the passage a Rosetta stone to the Holy Spirit, RHM. What's a Rosetta stone?
1.: a black basalt stone found in 1799 that bears an inscription in hieroglyphics, demotic characters, and Greek and is celebrated for having given the first clue to the decipherment of Egyptian hieroglyphics
2: one that gives a clue to understanding
3. A key to some previously undecipherable mystery.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 30, 2013, 07:14:46 PM
For me Molly, you have made a rock solid and undebateable affirmation, that the power of the Lord God His Spirit/Holy Spirit, and that it's presence is 24/7 to aid in the believers walk, and a detriment to those who have not been drawn to Him. :HeartThrob:
I applaud you for your work. :dsunny:
yes, not only is He present 24/7,
He will be with you forever. Jn 14:16
Molly so how is that passage the rosetta stone for the personhood of the HS?
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2013, 07:48:06 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 30, 2013, 07:14:46 PM
For me Molly, you have made a rock solid and undebateable affirmation, that the power of the Lord God His Spirit/Holy Spirit, and that it's presence is 24/7 to aid in the believers walk, and a detriment to those who have not been drawn to Him. :HeartThrob:
I applaud you for your work. :dsunny:
yes, not only is He present 24/7,
He will be with you forever. Jn 14:16
My bad, I just thought everyone who believe knew that :dsunny:
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 30, 2013, 07:54:50 PM
Molly so how is that passage the rosetta stone for the personhood of the HS?
:thumbsup:
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 30, 2013, 07:54:50 PM
Molly so how is that passage the rosetta stone for the personhood of the HS?
First of all, do you believe that Paul was receiving a message from the Holy Spirit on that sinking ship? Yes or No?
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2013, 08:03:35 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 30, 2013, 07:55:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2013, 07:48:06 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 30, 2013, 07:14:46 PM
For me Molly, you have made a rock solid and undebateable affirmation, that the power of the Lord God His Spirit/Holy Spirit, and that it's presence is 24/7 to aid in the believers walk, and a detriment to those who have not been drawn to Him. :HeartThrob:
I applaud you for your work. :dsunny:
yes, not only is He present 24/7,
He will be with you forever. Jn 14:16
My bad, I just thought everyone who believe knew that :dsunny:
Yes, Micah, you know everything. We have already established that. No need to repeat it.
Well you seem to be "The Oracle" on 99% of the Bible and from my understanding you find me a heretic. I take no offence :dsunny:
Don't put words in my mouth, Micah. I never called you 'a heretic.'
But, thanks for calling me an "oracle,' although I suspect you meant it sarcastically, like everything you say to me.
'
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2013, 08:14:24 PM
Don't put words in my mouth, Micah. I never called you 'a heretic.'
But, thanks for calling me an "oracle,' although I suspect you meant it sarcastically, like everything you say to me.
'
Heretic: a person who professes a heresy, esp. a church member who holds beliefs opposed to church dogma.
Sounds like it to me without using the word. And yes I was being sarcastic only cause I thought I was responding to sarcasm. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Molly
Jesus surrenders his will to the Father.
Jesus said I have a will my own will I freely give it over to the Father.
Where is scriptures do we get any thing close to;
1) I the Father give up my free will to you God the Spirit.
2) I God the Spirit give up my free will to you God the Father.
Quote from: dajomaco on June 30, 2013, 08:39:50 PM
Molly
Jesus surrenders his will to the Father.
Jesus said I have a will my own will I freely give it over to the Father.
Where is scriptures do we get any thing close to;
1) I the Father give up my free will to you God the Spirit.
2) I God the Spirit give up my free will to you God the Father.
:eek: :doh:
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2013, 08:02:24 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 30, 2013, 07:54:50 PM
Molly so how is that passage the rosetta stone for the personhood of the HS?
First of all, do you believe that Paul was receiving a message from the Holy Spirit on that sinking ship? Yes or No?
I believe the message originated with God and he dispatched it as he saw fit.
Quote from: dajomaco on June 30, 2013, 08:45:57 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2013, 08:02:24 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 30, 2013, 07:54:50 PM
Molly so how is that passage the rosetta stone for the personhood of the HS?
First of all, do you believe that Paul was receiving a message from the Holy Spirit on that sinking ship? Yes or No?
I believe the message originated with God and he dispatched it as he saw fit.
:banana: :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2013, 08:02:24 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 30, 2013, 07:54:50 PM
Molly so how is that passage the rosetta stone for the personhood of the HS?
First of all, do you believe that Paul was receiving a message from the Holy Spirit on that sinking ship? Yes or No?
Paul received a message from an angel of God, yes. Was it through the HS as a 3rd person coequal and coeternal to God the FAther and God the Son? NO. For the millionth time, NOBODY is saying the HS doesn't exist. You keep setting up these straw man arguments Molly. BTW where in this passage (Acts 27 btw not 17) does it say this is the HS, a separate person within the trinity that is contacting Paul. It doesn't at all.
Ok. I'm confused now.
Did Paul receive a message from the Holy Spirit while he was on the sinking ship.
Yes or No?
Acts 27
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2013, 10:51:04 PM
Ok. I'm confused now.
Did Paul receive a message from the Holy Spirit while he was on the sinking ship.
Yes or No?
Acts 27
I believe Paul received a message from the Father by/through His power the Spirit/Holy Spirit.
Is that a yes or a no?
But I was really talking to RHM.
Yes Molly. Now please enlighten us as to how this shows the HS is a separate person of the trinity.
Personally, I believe the trinity(3 persons in 1 blessed trinity) teaching along with praying to Mary and man having an immortal soul, is un-biblical.
I being raised a Lutheran from K-12 have heard "blessed trinity" used as well in the Catholic belief and in hymn's from those beliefs. Again to emphaize there is no such wording in the Bible.
And I agree with, redhotmagma...... "Paul received a message from an angel of God, yes. Was it through the HS as a 3rd person coequal and coeternal to God the FAther and God the Son? NO. For the millionth time, NOBODY is saying the HS doesn't exist. You keep setting up these straw man arguments Molly. BTW where in this passage (Acts 27 btw not 17) does it say this is the HS, a separate person within the trinity that is contacting Paul. It doesn't at all. "
This discussion for me is only continuing because as I have said before, where in the Bible(other than religious interpretation by someone) do we find any evidence that states God is 3 persons in 1? And since the word trinity, as we all know, is not found in the Bible, just why would anyone accept such a doctrine without forth right, simple, and plain words to point it out? I fail to see a controversy if there is no sound evidence. In 40 yrs( no bragging it's been 40 years since He began dragging me) of reading and studying the Bible I have found many things that I had believed at one time to be true and the Word proved those beliefs in error. Such is the trinity teaching. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2013, 12:41:58 AM
It's true, they are not three separate persons [spirit, soul, and body]. They are three in one [within ourselves].
But, don't they act like separate persons sometimes?
And, aren't the three parts of ourselves being saved separately, one after the other, with the redemption of the body last?
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
--Rom 7
So sin is a person in us?
20 Now if I do that I would not,
it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.This is the other personality that acts differently.
Wouldn't that make us quaternarian beings then in your philosophy? Body, soul, spirit, sin
:Chinscratch: :CryBaby:
Friend, you are truly reaching now imo.
2Co 11:3 and I fear, lest, as the serpent did beguile Eve in his subtilty, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in the Christ;
Simplcity: G572 singleness, that is, (subjectively) sincerity (without dissimulation or self seeking), or (objectively) generosity (copious bestowal): - bountifulness, liberal (-ity), simplicity, singleness.
From...G573 (as a particle of union) and the base of G4120; properly folded together, that is, single (figuratively clear): - single.
Why in the world(possibly a pun) would anyone desire to confuse the singleness of ONE by contibuting a 3 in 1 theory that bears no evidence from the Holy Writ?
Hastings Dictionary of the Bible can help us.
Page 1015: TRINITY--The Christian doctrine of God as existing in three Persons and one Substance IS NOT DEMONSTRABLE BY LOGIC or SCRIPTURAL PROOF..."
The existence of a trinity is admittedly not demonstrable by logic or scriptural proof, however, it is called a "necessary hypothesis." I would inquire as to just why is it a "necessary hypothesis"? Why hypothesize at all, seeing that the Scriptures give us plain, factual, actual information without having to theorize or hypothesize? Let's get a definition of that word "hypothesis:"
Webster's Dictionary, hypothesis, A system or theory imagined or assumed to account for what is not understood. An unproved theory. theory, a speculative plan... a formulation of underlying principles of certain observed phenomena which has been verified to some degree... a conjecture; guess.
First of all, nowhere in the Scriptures is God referred to or called a "trinity."
Second, the word "three" is never used in reference to Who or What God is.
Third, God is never called or referred to as "a person."
Four, the holy spirit is never called "God."
Five, since Christ is the Son, He cannot also be the Father or be coequal with His Father. Christ plainly said:
"My Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28). And where in the Word of God is the Holy Spirit called a person?
Ques:
Did Paul receive a message from the Holy Spirit while he was on the sinking ship.
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 30, 2013, 11:01:53 PM
Yes Molly. Now please enlighten us as to how this shows the HS is a separate person of the trinity.
Ok so you say, Yes, Paul received a message from the Holy Spirit while he was on the sinking ship in Acts 27
So who is the Holy Spirit in this passage? The Angel of God or God?
Because there are only two there who could be giving Paul the message.
23 For
there stood by me this night
the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
24
Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo,
God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer:
for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
--Acts 27
Quote from: RHMSo sin is a person in us?
I never said that. If you cannot or will not read what I'm saying, I cannot communicate with you.
Do you understand that?
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 30, 2013, 09:49:13 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2013, 08:02:24 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 30, 2013, 07:54:50 PM
Molly so how is that passage the rosetta stone for the personhood of the HS?
First of all, do you believe that Paul was receiving a message from the Holy Spirit on that sinking ship? Yes or No?
Paul received a message from an angel of God, yes. Was it through the HS as a 3rd person coequal and coeternal to God the FAther and God the Son? NO. For the millionth time, NOBODY is saying the HS doesn't exist. You keep setting up these straw man arguments Molly. BTW where in this passage (Acts 27 btw not 17) does it say this is the HS, a separate person within the trinity that is contacting Paul. It doesn't at all.
I enjoyed your response. Pretty solid :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 30, 2013, 10:54:20 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2013, 10:51:04 PM
Ok. I'm confused now.
Did Paul receive a message from the Holy Spirit while he was on the sinking ship.
Yes or No?
Acts 27
I believe Paul received a message from the Father by/through His power the Spirit/Holy Spirit.
Only two in that passage, Micah. The angel of God and God. Which is the Holy Spirit?
Yes, I agree with you, you are confused. Besides your question has been answered six ways from Sunday.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 01, 2013, 12:37:00 AM
Yes, I agree with you, you are confused. Besides your question has been answered six ways from Sunday.
Which is the Holy Spirit in that passage, Micah? God or the angel of God? Because there are only two in that passage giving Paul the message.
Quote from: Molly on July 01, 2013, 12:06:45 AM
Ques:
Did Paul receive a message from the Holy Spirit while he was on the sinking ship.
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 30, 2013, 11:01:53 PM
Yes Molly. Now please enlighten us as to how this shows the HS is a separate person of the trinity.
Ok so you say, Yes, Paul received a message from the Holy Spirit while he was on the sinking ship in Acts 27
So who is the Holy Spirit in this passage? The Angel of God or God?
Because there are only two there who could be giving Paul the message.
23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
--Acts 27
He does not say I believe God, which is you angel the third person of the trinity. He says he believes God, as in the message given by God, the message was sent by a messenger aka angel. Again this proves nothing of your point.
Have you ever heard the saying "if your only tool is a hammer all you see are nails"? Molly the term in the christian world is eisegesis, reading into a passage. The messenger came bearing a message from God. Paul believed the message sent from God. Thats it. There is nothing else in the passage stating that the messenger is the third person of the trinity.
Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
1Co 8:6 yet *we* have but one God, the Father, who is the source of all things and for whose service we exist, and but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom we and all things exist.
Quote from: Molly on July 01, 2013, 12:16:13 AM
Quote from: RHMSo sin is a person in us?
I never said that. If you cannot or will not read what I'm saying, I cannot communicate with you.
Do you understand that?
No you didn't say that, because you missed the point. You used the passage trying to say that we have multiple personalities like the trinity, attempting to show the flesh being one of those personalities. But you missed the actual point of the passage. Sin is what does the bad things in us. It is sin. Therefore I was pointing out the fallacy of your argument, and saying that sin must be the personality.
Quote from: redhotmagma on July 01, 2013, 12:43:18 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 01, 2013, 12:06:45 AM
Ques:
Did Paul receive a message from the Holy Spirit while he was on the sinking ship.
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 30, 2013, 11:01:53 PM
Yes Molly. Now please enlighten us as to how this shows the HS is a separate person of the trinity.
Ok so you say, Yes, Paul received a message from the Holy Spirit while he was on the sinking ship in Acts 27
So who is the Holy Spirit in this passage? The Angel of God or God?
Because there are only two there who could be giving Paul the message.
23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
--Acts 27
He does not say I believe God, which is you angel the third person of the trinity. He says he believes God, as in the message given by God, the message was sent by a messenger aka angel. Again this proves nothing of your point.
Have you ever heard the saying "if your only tool is a hammer all you see are nails"? Molly the term in the christian world is eisegesis, reading into a passage. The messenger came bearing a message from God. Paul believed the message sent from God. Thats it. There is nothing else in the passage stating that the messenger is the third person of the trinity.
Ok, do you want to change your answer then? Paul did not receive a message from the Holy Spirit, after all? Because it doesn't sound like you wish to say that the Holy Spirit is an angel, and it doesn't sound like you wish to say that the Holy Spirit is God. Am I right?
So the Holy Spirit is not in that passage at all now, according to you? And, Paul did not receive a message from the Holy Spirit?
Quote from: redhotmagma on July 01, 2013, 12:48:36 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 01, 2013, 12:16:13 AM
Quote from: RHMSo sin is a person in us?
I never said that. If you cannot or will not read what I'm saying, I cannot communicate with you.
Do you understand that?
No you didn't say that, because you missed the point. You used the passage trying to say that we have multiple personalities like the trinity, attempting to show the flesh being one of those personalities. But you missed the actual point of the passage. Sin is what does the bad things in us. It is sin. Therefore I was pointing out the fallacy of your argument, and saying that sin must be the personality.
Our flesh is not sin, and I never said that. I said that the three different aspects of ourselves could be warring with each other.
But, Jesus had a flesh body and did not sin.
Quote from: Molly on July 01, 2013, 12:53:10 AM
Quote from: redhotmagma on July 01, 2013, 12:48:36 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 01, 2013, 12:16:13 AM
Quote from: RHMSo sin is a person in us?
I never said that. If you cannot or will not read what I'm saying, I cannot communicate with you.
Do you understand that?
No you didn't say that, because you missed the point. You used the passage trying to say that we have multiple personalities like the trinity, attempting to show the flesh being one of those personalities. But you missed the actual point of the passage. Sin is what does the bad things in us. It is sin. Therefore I was pointing out the fallacy of your argument, and saying that sin must be the personality.
Our flesh is not sin, and I never said that. I said that the three different aspects of ourselves could be warring with each other.
But, Jesus had a flesh body and did not sin.
Yet, someone who believes that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are three different aspects of One God(not three separate gods who are somehow 1 god at the same time), the God of 1 Corinthians 8:6, is a heretic. Convenience is a deceptive master.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 01, 2013, 12:59:54 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 01, 2013, 12:53:10 AM
Quote from: redhotmagma on July 01, 2013, 12:48:36 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 01, 2013, 12:16:13 AM
Quote from: RHMSo sin is a person in us?
I never said that. If you cannot or will not read what I'm saying, I cannot communicate with you.
Do you understand that?
No you didn't say that, because you missed the point. You used the passage trying to say that we have multiple personalities like the trinity, attempting to show the flesh being one of those personalities. But you missed the actual point of the passage. Sin is what does the bad things in us. It is sin. Therefore I was pointing out the fallacy of your argument, and saying that sin must be the personality.
Our flesh is not sin, and I never said that. I said that the three different aspects of ourselves could be warring with each other.
But, Jesus had a flesh body and did not sin.
Yet, someone who believes that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are three different aspects of One God(not three separate gods who are somehow 1 god at the same time), the God of 1 Corinthians 8:6, is a heretic. Convenience is a deceptive master.
I didn't mean to imply either in the example I gave.
I see where Molly is called confused. Maybe I'm missing it, but I've searched for it and I'm not finding where anyone was called a heretic.
Either way, how about we do this without getting personal? If not, we can just close it and move on. Thanks.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 01, 2013, 12:37:00 AM
Yes, I agree with you,...Besides your question has been answered six ways from Sunday.
It was just requested that this be discussed without being personally insulting.
Any further such posts will be removed, and any further moderation followed up as necessary.
Here is an example of a spirit with a personality. The spirit is called evil and seizes the boy, makes him scream, and batters him.
Can a force be evil? Or is a force impersonal? Is a hurricane evil? Or an impersonal force of nature?
But if the spirit isn't a force, then what?
37 The next day, after they had come down the mountain, a large crowd met Jesus. 38 A man in the crowd called out to him, "Teacher, I beg you to look at my son, my only child. 39 An evil spirit keeps seizing him, making him scream. It throws him into convulsions so that he foams at the mouth. It batters him and hardly ever leaves him alone. 40 I begged your disciples to cast out the spirit, but they couldn't do it."
41 Jesus said, "You faithless and corrupt people! How long must I be with you and put up with you?" Then he said to the man, "Bring your son here."
42 As the boy came forward, the demon knocked him to the ground and threw him into a violent convulsion. But Jesus rebuked the evil spirit and healed the boy. Then he gave him back to his father. 43 Awe gripped the people as they saw this majestic display of God's power.
--Luke 9
19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
--Acts 10
Looking at the Holy Spirit again, the Spirit comes to Peter and tells him, three men will come looking for you. Go down and go with them for I have sent them.
Peter does as he's told and they tell Peter they were sent because Cornelius was warned from God by a holy angel to send for Peter.
But, again, the Holy Spirit told Peter, "I have sent them."
So, again--Is the Holy Spirit the angel or God?
We all want to please our God. But, most of the time aren't we guessing what he wants? He wants me to act this way, and dress that way, and not do that thing, and not say this or that. Our own heads can become our own worst enemy trying to please God as we fall into judgment.
But, wouldn't it be a kick to have God tell us himself what he wants from us, whether by audible voice or holy angel or appearance? Then of course we would obey, wouldn't we? If we recognized it was God asking us, that is...
Peter has such an intimate relationship with God that the Holy Spirit only has to tell him once, Go with these men for I have sent them, and Peter is ready to go into a totally unknown situation, knowing that this is what God wants him to do. What a kick! It takes all the guesswork out doesn't it? Not to mention our own egos. But, what an adventure!
This was the adventure the holy prophets of the Old Testament had, and one that I expect is meant for every one of us in this age.
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
--John 3
Quote from: Molly on July 01, 2013, 12:50:34 AM
Quote from: redhotmagma on July 01, 2013, 12:43:18 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 01, 2013, 12:06:45 AM
Ques:
Did Paul receive a message from the Holy Spirit while he was on the sinking ship.
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 30, 2013, 11:01:53 PM
Yes Molly. Now please enlighten us as to how this shows the HS is a separate person of the trinity.
Ok so you say, Yes, Paul received a message from the Holy Spirit while he was on the sinking ship in Acts 27
So who is the Holy Spirit in this passage? The Angel of God or God?
Because there are only two there who could be giving Paul the message.
23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
--Acts 27
He does not say I believe God, which is you angel the third person of the trinity. He says he believes God, as in the message given by God, the message was sent by a messenger aka angel. Again this proves nothing of your point.
Have you ever heard the saying "if your only tool is a hammer all you see are nails"? Molly the term in the christian world is eisegesis, reading into a passage. The messenger came bearing a message from God. Paul believed the message sent from God. Thats it. There is nothing else in the passage stating that the messenger is the third person of the trinity.
Ok, do you want to change your answer then? Paul did not receive a message from the Holy Spirit, after all? Because it doesn't sound like you wish to say that the Holy Spirit is an angel, and it doesn't sound like you wish to say that the Holy Spirit is God. Am I right?
So the Holy Spirit is not in that passage at all now, according to you? And, Paul did not receive a message from the Holy Spirit?
Molly just because the message came from the HS aka God doesn't mean that the messenger is the HS aka a separate person in the trinity. Was the ass that spoke to Balaam the HS? Because I would say that message came from God, through the outworking of His power aka the HS. In the same way this angel (messenger bringing a message), whether a literal man, a celestial being, or an extension of the mind of God does not make it to be a third person of the trinity.
Look at the angel of the Lord that gives the law, that angel speaks for God, yet is not God. How do I know? Compare mediators.
Gal 3:19 KJV - Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made ; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator[3316].
Gal 3:20 KJV - Now a mediator[3316] is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.
1Ti 2:5 KJV - For [there is] one God, and one mediator[3316] between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Hbr 8:6 KJV - But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator[3316] of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Hbr 9:15 KJV - And for this cause he is the mediator[3316] of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hbr 12:24 KJV - And to Jesus the mediator[3316] of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
Muslims do not believe in the trinity. They consider it blasphemy. They do not believe God has a Son. They do not believe Jesus is the Son of God. [Allah does not have a Son, that means Allah is not the Christian God, nor is he the same god as the Christian God.]
They do not believe Jesus is God. They do not believe the Holy Spirit is God. They believe the Holy Spirit is created by God. That it breathes the breath of life into the human fetus. That the Holy Spirit and Jesus are both created by God and beneath God, who is Allah [not YHWH].
They also believe that Jesus was not crucified and therefore that he didn't rise from the dead nor did his death serve as atonement for our sins, obviously because he did not die on the cross.
Quote from: RHMMolly just because the message came from the HS aka God doesn't mean that the messenger is the HS aka a separate person in the trinity.
Are you saying here the Holy Spirit is God?
And, are you also saying the angel of the Lord is not the Holy Spirit?
What are you saying about mediators? Are you saying Jesus is not God because he is a mediator? I didn't understand your point. Or are you just pointing out the angel of the Lord is a mediator?
QuoteIn the same way this angel (messenger bringing a message), whether a literal man, a celestial being, or an extension of the mind of God does not make it to be a third person of the trinity.
No one is saying a donkey is the third person of the trinity. I am saying the Holy Spirit is the third person of the trinity.
Quote from: Molly on July 01, 2013, 04:37:13 PM
Quote from: RHMMolly just because the message came from the HS aka God doesn't mean that the messenger is the HS aka a separate person in the trinity.
Are you saying here the Holy Spirit is God?
And, are you also saying the angel of the Lord is not the Holy Spirit?
What are you saying about mediators? Are you saying Jesus is not God because he is a mediator? I didn't understand your point. Or are you just pointing out the angel of the Lord is a mediator?
I am saying the Holy Spirit is God, BUT NOT A SEPARATE PERSON IN THE IMAGINARY TRINITY
Compare the mediators and the covenants. The one that is worthless and passing away the OC was mediated by angels. That angel speaks for God, yet is not necessarily A SEPARATE PERSON IN THE IMAGINARY TRINITY. In the same way, the angel in Acts 27 speaks for God, but is not A SEPARATE PERSON IN THE IMAGINARY TRINITY.
Quote from: Molly on July 01, 2013, 04:29:04 PM
Muslims do not believe in the trinity. They consider it blasphemy. They do not believe God has a Son. They do not believe Jesus is the Son of God. [Allah does not have a Son, that means Allah is not the Christian God, nor is he the same god as the Christian God.]
They do not believe Jesus is God. They do not believe the Holy Spirit is God. They believe the Holy Spirit is created by God. That it breathes the breath of life into the human fetus. That the Holy Spirit and Jesus are both created by God and beneath God, who is Allah [not YHWH].
They also believe that Jesus was not crucified and therefore that he didn't rise from the dead nor did his death serve as atonement for our sins, obviously because he did not die on the cross.
First non-trinitarians are lumped with JW's, now muslims. What does this have to do with anything? We are discussing biblical doctrines, not those of the Koran, nor of the watchtower society.
Quote1Ti 2:5 KJV - For [there is] one God, and one mediator[3316] between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
We have been given the man Christ Jesus, to act as our mediator, as our high Priest, even though by earthly birth he was not entitled to be priest as he was from the tribe of kings, but God has sworn on himself, Thou art a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek, and this priesthood is based, not on a genealogy of man, but on an indestructible life.
Yet, before we were given the unique Son of God, whose
name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of peace --He was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Quote from: redhotmagma on July 01, 2013, 04:47:53 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 01, 2013, 04:37:13 PM
Quote from: RHMMolly just because the message came from the HS aka God doesn't mean that the messenger is the HS aka a separate person in the trinity.
Are you saying here the Holy Spirit is God?
And, are you also saying the angel of the Lord is not the Holy Spirit?
What are you saying about mediators? Are you saying Jesus is not God because he is a mediator? I didn't understand your point. Or are you just pointing out the angel of the Lord is a mediator?
I am saying the Holy Spirit is God, BUT NOT A SEPARATE PERSON IN THE IMAGINARY TRINITY
Compare the mediators and the covenants. The one that is worthless and passing away the OC was mediated by angels. That angel speaks for God, yet is not necessarily A SEPARATE PERSON IN THE IMAGINARY TRINITY. In the same way, the angel in Acts 27 speaks for God, but is not A SEPARATE PERSON IN THE IMAGINARY TRINITY.
Ok, thank you for being clear, because I had no idea what you were saying.
So we can agree on one thing, the Holy Spirit is God. That also means the Holy Spirit is a person, because God is a person, so can we agree on that, too? Or are in you in the Holy Spirit is a force camp?
Do we also agree Jesus is God? And co-equal to God the Father? Or not?
Regarding the covenants, I disagree with your characterization of that but that's another long story, so I won't get into it here.
PS Please don't call the trinity 'imaginary,' --it is disrespectful to my beliefs.
The trinity is not in the bible. Therefore the word trinity comes from the mind of man. The concept may be true (though I obviously don't think it is) but the word is imaginary, from the mind of man.
You disagree with my characterization of the covenants? Then you disagree with Paul and the writer of Hebrews? Those are exact words used for it.
Molly you have again characterized non trins as non christians by throwing out the Muslim aspect, you talk about respect for beliefs? Give me a break.
Quote from: redhotmagma on July 01, 2013, 05:18:28 PM
The trinity is not in the bible. Therefore the word trinity comes from the mind of man. The concept may be true (though I obviously don't think it is) but the word is imaginary, from the mind of man.
You disagree with my characterization of the covenants? Then you disagree with Paul and the writer of Hebrews? Those are exact words used for it.
Molly you have again characterized non trins as non christians by throwing out the Muslim aspect, you talk about respect for beliefs? Give me a break.
No I haven't characterized non Trinitarians as 'non Christians.' That's in your head, not mine. I was reading over at a muslim board today, and I am telling you what they believe. And, a lot of it looked very familiar. The word, trinity, is not in the Bible, they said.
The thing that makes them non Christian is that they believe in a different God, one who does not have a Son, who was crucified, dead, buried, rose from the dead, and died on the cross in atonement for our sins. So, the people who are saying we worship the same God as muslims are wrong.
PS I do not believe the apostle Paul used the word 'worthless' when referring to the old covenant.
Give me a break. In the middle of a discussion you just happen to say Muslims don't believe in the trinity. Just like you happened to say JW's don't. Maybe its your subconscious speaking then Molly, or maybe its that separate person in your human trinity thats speaking. If thats not what you were saying then why say it at all? How does it add to the discussion? Especially in the middle of an ongoing discussion. I'm not buying it. this is a discussion about the biblical evidence of a trinity.
Quote from: redhotmagma on July 01, 2013, 05:41:37 PM
Give me a break. In the middle of a discussion you just happen to say Muslims don't believe in the trinity. Just like you happened to say JW's don't. Maybe its your subconscious speaking then Molly, or maybe its that separate person in your human trinity thats speaking. If thats not what you were saying then why say it at all? How does it add to the discussion? Especially in the middle of an ongoing discussion. I'm not buying it. this is a discussion about the biblical evidence of a trinity.
Please don't project things onto me. Is your conscience clear? If it is, you do not have to make things up about me. I was just reading over at a muslim board. This is what they had to say as I reported in my post. Do you consider a belief in the trinity to be blasphemy? I doubt you do, and I didn't accuse you of believing that, either. Do you agree with most of this stuff? I doubt it, but if you do, why don't you tell me. But there is some overlap with what is being said on this thread.
"Muslims do not believe in the trinity. They consider it blasphemy. They do not believe God has a Son. They do not believe Jesus is the Son of God. [Allah does not have a Son, that means Allah is not the Christian God, nor is he the same god as the Christian God.]
They do not believe Jesus is God. They do not believe the Holy Spirit is God. They believe the Holy Spirit is created by God. That it breathes the breath of life into the human fetus. That the Holy Spirit and Jesus are both created by God and beneath God, who is Allah [not YHWH].
They also believe that Jesus was not crucified and therefore that he didn't rise from the dead nor did his death serve as atonement for our sins, obviously because he did not die on the cross."
Quote from: Molly on July 01, 2013, 06:19:11 AM
We all want to please our God. But, most of the time aren't we guessing what he wants? He wants me to act this way, and dress that way, and not do that thing, and not say this or that. Our own heads can become our own worst enemy trying to please God as we fall into judgment.
But, wouldn't it be a kick to have God tell us himself what he wants from us, whether by audible voice or holy angel or appearance? Then of course we would obey, wouldn't we? If we recognized it was God asking us, that is...
Peter has such an intimate relationship with God that the Holy Spirit only has to tell him once, Go with these men for I have sent them, and Peter is ready to go into a totally unknown situation, knowing that this is what God wants him to do. What a kick! It takes all the guesswork out doesn't it? Not to mention our own egos. But, what an adventure!
This was the adventure the holy prophets of the Old Testament had, and one that I expect is meant for every one of us in this age.
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
--John 3
re: But, wouldn't it be a kick to have God tell us himself what he wants from us...
OT
He has showed you, O man, what is good. AND WHAT DOES THE LORD REQUIRE OF YOU but to do justly, and love kindness and mercy, and humble yourself and walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8 AMP (see also Dt 10:12, 13 and Dt 30:16)
NT
John 6:28-29 AMP
v 28 They then said, What are we to do, that we may [habitually] be working the works of God? [WHAT ARE WE TO DO TO CARRY OUT WHAT GOD REQUIRES?]
v 29 Jesus replied, This is the work (service) that God asks of you: that you believe in the One Whom He has sent [that you cleave to, trust, rely on, and have faith in His Messenger].
What does that have to do with our discussion here, on a biblical Christian site, based on Universal Reconciliation? Nothing. Hey guess what atheists don't believe in the bible. Random fact of the day. Mormons think Jesus and Satan are brothers. Another random fact of the day. Pagans believe that the sun is their god. Another random fact of the day. :BangHead:
Quote from: speaktruth on July 01, 2013, 06:04:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 01, 2013, 06:19:11 AM
We all want to please our God. But, most of the time aren't we guessing what he wants? He wants me to act this way, and dress that way, and not do that thing, and not say this or that. Our own heads can become our own worst enemy trying to please God as we fall into judgment.
But, wouldn't it be a kick to have God tell us himself what he wants from us, whether by audible voice or holy angel or appearance? Then of course we would obey, wouldn't we? If we recognized it was God asking us, that is...
Peter has such an intimate relationship with God that the Holy Spirit only has to tell him once, Go with these men for I have sent them, and Peter is ready to go into a totally unknown situation, knowing that this is what God wants him to do. What a kick! It takes all the guesswork out doesn't it? Not to mention our own egos. But, what an adventure!
This was the adventure the holy prophets of the Old Testament had, and one that I expect is meant for every one of us in this age.
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
--John 3
re: But, wouldn't it be a kick to have God tell us himself what he wants from us...
OT
He has showed you, O man, what is good. AND WHAT DOES THE LORD REQUIRE OF YOU but to do justly, and love kindness and mercy, and humble yourself and walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8 AMP (see also Dt 10:12, 13 and Dt 30:16)
NT
John 6:28-29 AMP
v 28 They then said, What are we to do, that we may [habitually] be working the works of God? [WHAT ARE WE TO DO TO CARRY OUT WHAT GOD REQUIRES?]
v 29 Jesus replied, This is the work (service) that God asks of you: that you believe in the One Whom He has sent [that you cleave to, trust, rely on, and have faith in His Messenger].
Yes, we have the Bible, the word of God, and so did the Jews.
And, in this age we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and our Savior.
We believe the testimony and the witness.
But, we also have something else, the Holy Spirit, who allows us a one to one communication with God, and an ability to have him tell us personally what he wants from us in particular, this day, this hour, this moment, and to meet with him personally in a way that was only possible for a few men before, the holy prophets of the Old Testament.
This is what it means to
draw near.
I hope this thread will continue ,
the more truth I come realize,
the more blessings I realize.
Molly specifically what are the blessings awaiting me
if I saw the trinity as truth.
What blessings am I missing that can I not receive until I confess the trinity.
So we cannot draw near unless we see the godhead as you see it? :o)
So anyone who is not an orthodox Trinitarian like you doesnt believe in the Holy Spirit?
Ahhh, I see- the Holy Spirit is only active and intimate with people who see things like you do!
Makes sense to me folks,,, what remains to be said?
Name one thing I said in my last post that was incorrect.
ONE THING.
Name it! Or keep YOUR PEACE.
Molly I think we can clear up a lot of misunderstandings if you just answer the question,
Molly specifically what are the blessings awaiting me
if I saw the trinity as truth.
What blessings am I missing that can I not receive until I confess the trinity?
How would I know that, Dajomaco?
I am not God.
Keep my peace? :o) LOL. Molly, please dont forget, this is a discussion. You have to stand behind the context of all you have said before- not try to pigeon hole me by the statements of an individual post.
The issue here is is the structure of the godhead.
We all believe in the Bible.
We disagree about what it says.
We are drawing different conclusions from the same verses.
It is not about ONE THING correct or incorrect
NOTHING you said in the post is related to the issue of the Trinity.
Maybe I should just ask you a few simple questions.
Do you believe that a Trinitarian understanding is essential to a right relationship with God in Christ in the Spirit?
Do you believe someone who believes Jesus is the Only begotten Son of God but not equal and co-eternal to the Father can have the fulness of the Holy Spirit?
Do you believe belief in the Trinity is necessary for inclusion in the Body of Christ?
There's some strong sentiment to lock this thread. If we want to keep it open, let's please zero in on any remaining issues that are seen as productive, and for the building up of the saints (and anyone passing through). Thanks.
I am happy to stay in context, eaglesway.
I have never said any of those things.
I have never even thought any of those things.
Why is everyone so defensive?
Is believing in the trinity equivalent to believing in ET in your book, so you take it as a personal attack on your beliefs?
No one's salvation depends on believing in the trinity, IMO.
If it did, I would have said so. I don't mince words, as you might have noticed.
Quote from: jabcat on July 01, 2013, 09:46:39 PM
There's some strong sentiment to lock this thread. If we want to keep it open, let's please zero in on any remaining issues that are seen as productive, and for the building up of the saints (and anyone passing through). Thanks.
* Further - and this is a VERY serious suggestion. Molly, as you just did in your last post for example - ANY further posts in this thread be VERY clear, DIRECT TO A SPECIFIC POINT ABOUT THE TRINITY. No vague, non-OBVIOUSLY-related posts FROM ANYONE. This will indicate the thread as being productive, focused, and worth keeping open. Thanks.
The Bible states through the inspiration of the Spirit of God, some(there are many, many more) verses of scripture that by faith I believe. This is established sound doctrine, if there is any verse of scripture in the Bible that
speaks as clearly as these verses about a teaching that there is a "3 in 1 persons in a blessed trinity or that the Holy Spirit is a person, or of god the holy spirit", please make the verses available for me to see.
Thank you and God bless. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Num_23:19 God is not a man,
Exo 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Trinity verse:
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
--Mat 28:19
When they baptized in the name of Jesus only, they had to return to lay hands on in person to give the Holy Spirit:
14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had accepted God's message, they sent Peter and John there. 15 As soon as they arrived, they prayed for these new believers to receive the Holy Spirit. 16 The Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them, for they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John laid their hands upon these believers, and they received the Holy Spirit.
--Acts 8
Do you have another verse for a witness to that one verse? I mean like something on the line of 3 in 1 persons? Or it being a blessed trinity? Matt 28:19 says nothing about a person, it being a trinity, blessed or other wise.
You should know, I hope, that all the verses I posted have a witness to their truth. :dsunny:
"14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had accepted God's message, they sent Peter and John there. 15 As soon as they arrived, they prayed for these new believers to receive the Holy Spirit. 16 The Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them, for they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John laid their hands upon these believers, and they received the Holy Spirit.
--Acts 8" Yes, they had not received the indwelling power aka Holy Spirit, I don't read that there was another/separate person involved in what they received.
Mat 28:19 says to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
It is the great commission, given by Jesus, himself.
If only one were necessary, he would have said so.
The fact that it is three in one in the family of God is proof of the sacrament, itself, given by Jesus and practiced by the earliest church.
Quote from: micahI don't read that there was another/separate person involved in what they received.
I've got 80 pages of proof for you Micah. Impersonal forces or wind or whatever you think the Holy Spirit is do not say things like this:
the Spirit said unto him,
Behold, three men seek thee.
20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.--Acts 10
A Person says things like that.
If 80 pages doesn't help you see that, I cannot help you further.
But you said it yourself. A voice that was not yours said, "See." You know the HS is a Person.
What if, I'm just saying what if "Matthew 28:19-- the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit " is a spurious passage, I am saying what if.....
Now is there another verse of scripture in the Bible that bears a witness that Jesus[at another time], or any Apostle[at any time] has stated " the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit ?" You know in that order?
I mean you have offered many, many verses that the Holy Spirit has power, is power, and that that Spirit of God His power, has been witnessed. I have witnessed it :HeartThrob:
Now you are assuming when you say, "But you said it yourself. A voice that was not yours said, "See." You know the HS is a Person."
I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a person and I did not say or even apply that. :sigh:
Quote from: micahNow you are assuming when you say, "But you said it yourself. A voice that was not yours said, "See." You know the HS is a Person."
I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a person and I did not say or even apply that.
Alright, then, tell me again what you said, about, "See," or I can go look it up and post it here.
I just gave you a post proving the Holy Spirit is a Person and you, again, denied it.
"the Spirit said," and then the HS gives instructions to Peter about a meeting he has set up at both ends.
Quote from: Molly on June 28, 2013, 09:27:47 PM
"My mollyBible goes on the shelf right next to your micahBible.
I keep telling you that 'messenger' is only one of the definitions for the Hebrew word Malak.
Another definition is angel.
An angel is a supernatural, celestial being, not a human being.
But, you like 'messenger' and insist everyone use 'messenger' because according to you that is all they are.
If the angel I met was a messenger, then his message to me was God loves you and your baby, and His holy angels are always beside you, to protect and preserve you. The angel I met did not say that, he demonstrated it.
If you have never met one, you are not qualified to speak against it." Molly
I don't believe I said I had a "micahbible." But you refered to you having a "mollybible."
My experiences from the Lord helping me in times of trial and distress and in lifting me up have been 3 times. I knew it was the Lord who helped me each time, I had no visible image, but there was great calm and piece and rest and all that I heard within my being was "see." It was not audible to my human ear, still I heard the word. I am sorry your assumption was wrong.
Yes, well that is how the Holy Spirit speaks to us, among other ways.
Quote from: Molly on July 02, 2013, 01:41:57 AM
Yes, well that is how the Holy Spirit speaks to us, among other ways.
BUT.....what about where is "me" speaking about a person? You, Molly believe and consider the Holy Spirit to be a separate entity, a person, doing things by his own will. Or is that not correct? And I[among many others] believe that the Holy Spirit/His Spirit is the power through which He[the Lord] accomplishes what He sets out to do.
Exo 15:3
The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. (Jesus)
Num 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
1Co 15:21 For seeing that death came through man,
through man comes also the resurrection of the dead. Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that
JESUS CHRIST is LORD, to the glory of God the Father.
All that is pretty clear, in the Word.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 02, 2013, 02:11:34 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 02, 2013, 01:41:57 AM
Yes, well that is how the Holy Spirit speaks to us, among other ways.
BUT.....what about where is "me" speaking about a person? You, Molly believe and consider the Holy Spirit to be a separate entity, a person, doing things by his own will. Or is that not correct? And I[among many others] believe that the Holy Spirit/His Spirit is the power through which He[the Lord] accomplishes what He sets out to do.
Exo 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. (Jesus)
Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
1Co 15:21 For seeing that death came through man, through man comes also the resurrection of the dead.
Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD, to the glory of God the Father.
All that is pretty clear, in the Word.
I'm just saying, Micah, and I'm not presuming to interpret your experience, but that is one standard way in which the Holy Spirit speaks to us, by the still, small voice of 1Kings 19. That is how he has spoken to countless of Christians over the ages, including myself, and I would always identify that voice as the Holy Spirit because that is his function, to comfort, teach, and guide us and make sure we are never alone.
Jesus called him 'another Comforter,' meaning one just like himself, the Paraklete, the Helper. So whether he is talking to us by the small voice inside of us, or an audible voice outside, or by dreams, or visions, or appearances in 3 D, the book of Acts is full of such experiences and so is the life of every Christian--all attributable to the Person of the Holy Spirit.
That's not to say in your case or others it couldn't be Jesus or God the Father, I'm not arguing that, but this is the standard function of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
Christians do not believe because it sounds like a cool thing to do, they believe because they have personal experience of God.
"Jesus called him 'another Comforter,' meaning one just like himself."(Molly)
Because Jesus had to "exodus"(to use your definition) so that He, the Spirit of Truth[which would be "another"(yes?" could return to comfort us.
"So whether he is talking to us by the small voice inside of us, or an audible voice outside, or by dreams, or visions, or appearances in 3 D, the book of Acts is full of such experiences and so is the life of every Christian........."
Totally agree, but to this well as Ronald Reagan said, "There you go again."--all attributable to the Person of the Holy Spirit."
"That's not to say in your case or others it couldn't be Jesus or God the Father, I'm not arguing that, but this is the standard function of the Holy Spirit in our lives."
For me it was Jesus Lord, God the Father, which is "the standard function of the Holy Spirit in our lives."
"Christians do not believe because it sounds like a cool thing to do, they believe because they have personal experience of God." :iagree: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: MicahAnd I[among many others] believe that the Holy Spirit/His Spirit is the power through which He[the Lord] accomplishes what He sets out to do.
Yes, but I do not consider the power to be the Holy Spirit himself. The Holy Spirit has great power--it's called dunamis in the greek--through which Jesus did his miracles and God accomplishes his goals and he can even impart this power to us, but I do not confuse the power with the person. I consider them two different things.
That's the best I can do and probably the closest we will ever come to agreeing.
11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:
12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
--1 Kings 19
Quote from: Molly on July 02, 2013, 03:00:55 AM
Quote from: MicahAnd I[among many others] believe that the Holy Spirit/His Spirit is the power through which He[the Lord] accomplishes what He sets out to do.
Yes, but I do not consider the power to be the Holy Spirit himself. The Holy Spirit has great power--it's called dunamis in the greek--through which Jesus did his miracles and God accomplishes his goals and he can even impart this power to us, but I do not confuse the power with the person. I consider them two different things.
That's the best I can do and probably the closest we will ever come to agreeing.
11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:
12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
--1 Kings 19
"Yes, but I do not consider the power to be the Holy Spirit himself. The Holy Spirit has great power--it's called dunamis in the greek--" Molly
And that POWER the Holy Spirit/Spirit ( dunamis) is
out from God the Father Creator.
The Holy Spirit does not have great power, whatever power that is from God the Father IS the power His Spirit.
How, or better why would anyone want, desire, wish to have the very Spirit/power that Gen 1:2 Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
Gen 1:2 the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
to divide that power from the the very essence, the very One, who is the Existing one Jehovah[Lord]?
The dunamis/power the Lord God's is Him......SPIRIT...God IS Spirit, there's the dunamis/power SPIRIT and God is SPIRIT, the Lord is ONE God. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
" But the Spirit is not the power." Molly
Then when I read GOD IS SPIRIT, then what pray tell is the power? Now I am setting with murky mind.
The power of the Holy Spirit is the power of God, yes. But the Spirit is not the power. As the scripture says, the Lord is not in the wind, the Lord is not in the earthquake, the Lord is not in the fire, [all of these are POWER] but in the still small voice.
The Holy Spirit is not the power. That's the best I can do.
Here's 50 things the Person of the Holy Spirit does for us [besides break mountains before us with his great POWER]
1. He convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8).
2. He guides us into all truth (John 16:13).
3. He regenerates us (John 3:5-8; Titus 3:5).
4. He glorifies and testifies of Christ (John 15:26; 16:14).
5. He reveals Christ to us and in us (John 16:14-15).
6. He leads us (Rom. 8:14; Gal. 5:18; Matt. 4:1; Luke 4:1).
7. He sanctifies us (2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:2; Rom. 5:16).
8. He empowers us (Luke 4:14; 24:49; Rom. 15:19; Acts 1:8).
9. He fills us (Eph. 5:18; Acts 2:4; 4:8, 31; 9:17).
10. He teaches us to pray (Rom. 8:26-27; Jude 1:20).
11. He bears witness in us that we are children of God (Rom. 8:16).
12. He produces in us the fruit or evidence of His work and presence (Gal. 5:22-23).
13. He distributes spiritual gifts and manifestations (the outshining) of His presence to and through the body (1 Cor. 12:4, 8-10; Heb. 2:4).
14. He anoints us for ministry (Luke 4:18; Acts 10:38).
15. He washes and renews us (Titus 3:5).
16. He brings unity and oneness to the body (Eph. 4:3; 2:14-18). Here He plays the same role that He plays in the Godhead. The Spirit is the life that unites Father and Son. He plays the same role in the church. When He is operating in a group of people, He unites them in love. Therefore, a sure evidence of the Holy Spirit working in a group is Love and Unity. Not signs and wonders (those are seasonal and can be counterfeited).
17. He is our guarantee and deposit of the future resurrection (2 Cor. 1:22; 2 Cor. 5:5).
18. He seals us unto the day of redemption (Eph. 1:13; 4:30).
19. He sets us free from the law of sin and death (Rom. 8:2).
20. He quickens our mortal bodies (Rom. 8:11).
21. He reveals the deep things of God to us (1 Cor. 2:10).
22. He reveals what has been given to us from God (1 Cor. 2:12).
23. He dwells in us (Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 3:16; 2 Tim. 1:14; John 14:17).
24. He speaks to, in, and through us (1 Cor. 12:3; 1 Tim. 4:1; Rev. 2:11; Heb 3:7; Matt. 10:20; Acts 2:4; 8:29; 10:19; 11:12, 28; 13:2; 16:6,7; 21:4,11).
25. He is the agent by which we are baptized into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).
26. He brings liberty (2 Cor. 3:17).
27. He transforms us into the image of Christ (2 Cor. 3:18).
28. He cries in our hearts, "Abba, Father" (Gal. 4:6).
29. He enables us to wait (Gal. 5:5).
30. He supplies us with Christ (Phil. 1:19, KJV).
31. He grants everlasting life (Gal. 6:8).
32. He gives us access to God the Father (Eph. 2:18).
33. He makes us (corporately) God's habitation (Eph. 2:22).
34. He reveals the mystery of God to us (Eph. 3:5).
35. He strengthens our spirits (Eph. 3:16).
36. He enables us to obey the truth (1 Pet. 1:22).
37. He enables us to know that Jesus abides in us (1 John 3:24; 4:13).
38. He confesses that Jesus came in the flesh (1 John 4:2).
39. He says "Come, Lord Jesus" along with the bride (Rev. 22:17).
40. He dispenses God's love into our hearts (Rom. 5:5).
41. He bears witness to the truth in our conscience (Rom. 9:1).
42. He teaches us (1 Cor. 2:13; John 14:26).
43. He gives us joy (1 Thess. 1:6).
44. He enables some to preach the gospel (1 Pet. 1:12).
45. He moves us (2 Pet. 1:21).
46. He knows the things of God (1 Cor. 2:11).
47. He casts out demons (Matt. 12:28).
48. He brings things to our remembrance (John 14:26).
49. He comforts us (Acts 9:31).
50. He makes some overseers in the church and sends some out to the work of church planting [through the body] (Acts 20:28; 13:2).
Summary: The Holy Spirit unites us to Jesus Christ and to His body. He reveals Christ to us, gives us His life, and makes Christ alive in us. The Spirit takes the experiences of Jesus . . . His incarnation, ministry, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension . . . and brings them into our own experience. Because of the Holy Spirit, the history of Jesus Christ becomes our story and experience (see Jesus Manifesto for details).
http://frankviola.org/2010/11/18/50-things-the-holy-spirit-does/
Where did Frank get all the "he's"? Or was that you?
Quote from: Molly on July 02, 2013, 03:41:48 AM
The power of the Holy Spirit is the power of God, yes. But the Spirit is not the power. As the scripture says, the Lord is not in the wind, the Lord is not in the earthquake, the Lord is not in the fire, [all of these are POWER] but in the still small voice.
The Holy Spirit is not the power. That's the best I can do.
"The power of the Holy Spirit is the power of God, yes." If you would stop there well :banana: but.....
So, "the Lord is not in the wind, the Lord is not in the earthquake, the Lord is not in the fire, [all of these are POWER]" so the Lord is not in the wind, could it be that HE IS the wind, the Lord is not in the earthquake because HE IS the earthquake, and the Lord is not in the fire because Heb 12:29 For our God IS a consuming fire.
And Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isa 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
So this Lord could not possibly be the still small voice?
I the LORD do all these things. Yeah HE can be a still small voice. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 02, 2013, 04:00:55 AM
Where did Frank get all the "he's"? Or was that you?
That's Frank. [along with most Bible translators]
Most bible translators are still giving us hell and Hades for Sheol and forever and everlasting for "olam" and "aionios". Doesnt make them correct in their theology because they agree. :0)
Quote from: Molly on July 02, 2013, 04:19:25 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 02, 2013, 04:00:55 AM
Where did Frank get all the "he's"? Or was that you?
That's Frank. [along with most Bible translators]
Then most of those Bible translators are bias and except the trinity theory. In all your 80(and now more) posts as far as I have read that you have posted, you have offered what you[and I guess Frank]interpreted as proof of the trinity theory. You have offered(how many times I posted) not one piece of plain speak of written verse in the Bible in either the OT or NT that shows that the Bible speaks of a 3 persons in 1 or any reference to a blessed trinity. Just because religious leaders say, promote, and sell what they think or believe the Bible teaches, don't make it so.
The trinity teaching of 3 in 1 persons and blessed trinity[here you go moderators] is un-biblical and blasphemy, an idol of the heart.
One can believe it, it's a choice, but should one believe it there must be words in the Bible that speak plainly as to the existence of such a teaching. Interpretation is of ones self, but should the plain teaching be unseen without the guide of a religious leader and that religions teaching, it may even fall into the occult.
Yes, I await the moderators. I can see why the trinity was a subject not allowed for discussion. Yet without a discussion it kind of hides Bible truth. Should the trinity/theory not be put in the same place as "hell and everlasting" then why is there a forum that stands on the principal of Bible truth? There is no "everlasting place of torment called hell and everlasting is aoinian and durational, and not forever" how can a false doctrine of God being a trinity of 3 persons in 1 blessed trinity escape a discussion of truth? :HeartThrob:
Moderators.......? I await. :dsunny:
Well why don't you look up all those scriptures in the 50 things the Holy Spirit does and get back to me, Micah.
Because they show that the Holy Spirit is far more than a force, or God's power, or some impersonal aspect of God.
He is a Person. And, once you see what He does for us, you might just agree.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 02, 2013, 04:54:16 AM
I can see why the trinity was a subject not allowed for discussion.
:hihat:
And this is mild as to what it would have been 3-4 years ago. :eek:
You shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you....
that you may be strengthened with might by His Spirit in your inner man(Ephesians 3)
I am full of power by the spirit of the Lord to declare unto Jacob his transgressions(Micah 3:8)
and Jesus returned in the power of the spirit unto Galilee(Luke 4:14)
through mighty signs and wonders through the power of the Spirit of God (Romans 15:19)
Interesting thing about the word holy(hagios) It means separated unto God. That is what makes it holy. Holy ground is holy because it is separated from other ground by the presence of God. The Holy land is holy because it is separated by the purpose and presence of God. The holy people are holy because is God is present in them.
The Holy Spirit is a particular separation of God out of Himself , IMO, which bears His personality expressed through Jesus- as well as His power- this is only my opinion now, I am not trying to establish some new systematic theology. The only way to reconcile all the different refences to the spirit of God(SPirit of God/Holy Spirit/Spirit of Christ,etc) , imo, to realize that there are various ways of expressing the One spirit(Ephesians 4 tells us there is only one Spirit)- perhaps related to the many functions and manifestations of YHWH.
If e lock ourselves into grammatical specifics, attributing personge to all of these different expressions we create problems of logic that require the developement of complicated dispensations and theological systems.
For instance, it is written, "For the Holy Spirit was not yet given for Jesus had not yet been glorified".
Does this mean the Holy Spirit had not manifested yet? No.
The Spirit descended upon Jesus as a dove at His baptism. Was He now two persons? IMO, nly to the extent that "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself".
1 Corinthians 8:6 explains this perspective for those of us who hold it. There is but ONE GOD THE FATHER, from whom are all things, and for whose service we exist, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by(through) whom are all things and we exist trhough Him.
Simple to me..... I see the verses in a different way than a Trinitarian does. Ok. So be it. God the Father is my(Jesus word's >) "One true invisible God". Jesus is my Lord, the only begotten Son-(Jesus words>) Who came out from the Father. This is a little more difficult to SEE in its specifics, because it precedes time, but for me, still in line with ONE GOD ONE SPIRIT because ALL THINGS ARE OF GOD for "FROM HIM AND THROUGH HIM AND TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS". A Trintarian doesnt see these verses in the same light I do. Thats OK for them.... it is not OK for me. The shema is "The Lord your God is ONE Lord."
A less agressive form of Modalism(than the oneness Pentecostals for instance) actually works for me, One God, One Lord, One Spirit, - first YHWH(from Him), then JESUS/Logos/Seed(through Him), then the Spirit(to Him)- for you were all baptized into One body by One Spirit.
Their is no conflict of logic there, as I see it- and no conflict of faith or verse.
Now Hebrews 12 makes sense...the general assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven, the spirits of righteous men made perfect. All surrounding the trhone n the holy City upon Zion- "That where I AM there you may BE ALSO. IMO,It is about the BEING not abut the STRUCTURE.
The Spirit hovered over the waters- what spirit? The Spirit of God? Yes, of course, He is the source of all things. The Spirit of Christ? Yes, of course, all things were created through Him. The Holy Spirit? Yes! When it says, "The Holy Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified", it doesnt mean there was never befor the holy Spirit, it simply means it was not yet given generally to men as it would be after Pentecost, baptizing them into the body of Christ.
Isaiah says of Israel in the wildernes "They rebelled agaisnt the Holy Spirit"
David says in Psalms, "Take not Thy Holy Spirit from me"
Ther are more, but why post them? A Trinitarian will see them differently from a binitarian or a unitarian or a modalist.
Peter says the word was spoken by, Holy men moved of God..... Paul says the word of God is God-breathed..... of Ballam the soothsayer God says(in Nummbers 22-24) "I put a word in his mouth". Did God speak through that donkey or the holy spirit or what? We could argue the specifics and become idiots of grammar and miss all the larger issues ;o)
But I can read all the scriptures Molly posts and it creates no schism in my paradigm.....such as it is at this point today, I have no need to avoid or re-explain any verses. And My God, and My Lord, and the Holy Spirit are still there, cheering me on, leading and helping me as I seek. :o)
If we look through a red glass all wee see looks red, tho we can see the forms of reality. if we look through a blue glass, the same.
I am just saying that I don't think any of us is looking through a completely clear glass in absolute clarity on this subject, and i am defending nothing more than the right to be honest with one another about how we see it without getting all bent out of shape :o)
Quote from: jabcat on July 02, 2013, 05:20:05 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 02, 2013, 04:54:16 AM
I can see why the trinity was a subject not allowed for discussion.
:hihat:
And this is mild as to what it would have been 3-4 years ago. :eek:
The fact that it is comparatively mild is the only reason we are still discussing it :o)
:sigh: Molly in your quest to rally a trinity base, I believe you have fallen short. Look back on the posts on this thread. You have stated that you had no religious influence in your Bible beliefs, I can believe that, you have given me much(now you know). The water to wine and the wine to blood is a great spiritual insight[and I know you got that from the Holy Spirit.]
So, if you had no religious teaching, how(I think I asked this before) did you get phrases like 3 persons in 1, and where did you hear the hymn with "blessed trinity?" I know you got neither from the Bible, so where did it come from? Should you received it from the Holy Spirit, why is there no explicit, plain speak of such in the Bible? :HeartThrob:
"And this is mild as to what it would have been 3-4 years ago."
Well then I really believe that Gary should have made a truthful stance as to whether the Bible teaches such a thing as a 3 persons in 1 blessed trinity, or The Lord is One. Then there would be no one attempting to prove or discuss either one. As it stands the discussion may go on like a dog chasing it's tail or a biblical circus. Moderators?
Let me say EW, you are on to something if it were not for there is no biblical verse, outside of religious interpretation, that the Bible speaks of any 3 persons in 1 or a trinity or blessed trinity. But it very clearly stated that the Lord is One, and ads no other person within that One. And no where does the Bible state that the Holy Spirit is a person.
I am somewhat amazed that I have been found mild. :dsunny:
Another interesting point about the Holy Spirit. The angel says to Joseph, "Do not be afraid to take Mary for your wife for the child that is in her is of the Holy Spirit."
Hmmm, WHo is Jesus' Father? Is the Father the father or is the Holy Spirit the father of is the Holy Spirit the Father or is the Father the Holy Spirit?
And if you can blaspheme the Son but you cannot blaspheme the Holy SPirit is the Holy Spirit not Jesus? And if the Holy Spirt is the Father then does anyone who shakes their fist at God and blasphemes Him beyond salvation in this age or the one to come? Yikes!
I am being facetious but there are some simple logical conundrums in those questions that I love because they just dont lay down and die for some religious catechism..... and when I am asked them, I am not going to say, "Put your common sense aside and just bellieve it".... or, "Those are unholy questions don't ask them" - because that is exactly how people used to speak to me when I asked them, "Is everyone who never heard of Jesu going to hell forever?" Or, "Why would God create a plan and foreordain that the great majority of His creation would be in torment forever". It just didnt make sense to me :o)
Quote from: eagleswayIsaiah says of Israel in the wildernes "They rebelled agaisnt the Holy Spirit"
David says in Psalms, "Take not Thy Holy Spirit from me"
These two together are interesting, eaglesway. How can we make them go together unless the Spirit is a person.
How did they rebel against the Spirit in the wilderness? They did not have the Spirit as we do, only a very few like David had the Holy Spirit.
So how could they rebel against something they did not have?
But, God in the Old Testament says, they rebelled against me.
So that would lead one to conclude the Holy Spirit is God.
But then David says to God, Don't take your Spirit away from me.
That would lead one to believe that the Spirit is under the control of God.
So if the Spirit is God and under the control of God--
The only way to logically make sense of these two facts, imo, is if there are two Gods.
Exo_20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 02, 2013, 05:40:05 AM
Well then I really believe that Gary should have made a truthful stance as to whether the Bible teaches such a thing as a 3 persons in 1 blessed trinity, or The Lord is One.
I think he's more interested in the Godheart. :)
I understand that argument Molly :o)
I just dont believe the Holy Spirit is a separate co-equal person. if the I AM is an ocean of water. Jesus is the fountain head through which the fountain of His(the one true invisible God)Spirit springs forth a fountain - the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God- all the same water which is the I AM who is becoming ALL IN ALL.
I am not trying to convince you, I am just trying to explain how I see it, in brief- without writing my book about it here on Tentmaker LOLOL
Quote from: jabcat on July 02, 2013, 06:07:21 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 02, 2013, 05:40:05 AM
Well then I really believe that Gary should have made a truthful stance as to whether the Bible teaches such a thing as a 3 persons in 1 blessed trinity, or The Lord is One.
I think he's more interested in the Godheart. :)
Please with no disrespect or offense what does that mean the Godheart? And how does that justify excluding a discussion of the trinity, as a sound doctrine that is not taught in the Bible. For me the Godheart is what the Lord has offered to whosoever will yield to His drawing. His heart is Love. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
We hav all at times played around the edges of mild LOL, but so far we have mostly retreated back within the borders of tolerably respectful HAHAHA.
By a "milder form of Modalism", I mean, three modes of one God, Father(the source/"who alone dwells in unappraochable light)) Jesus (the Logos/outshining of the Fathers glory) and the Spirit(the All in All of God moving through all creation to glorify the Anointed One who is gatering all things into one so as to return it to the Creator so thet God may be ALL IN ALL)
Hard-line modalists kind of deny the Father(IMO) hardline trinitarians kinda deny the shema(IMO)- and of course there are shades and degrees of all these systems of thought about this exciting and complex subject :o)
Also, I dont think Gary should need to pre-justify any belief he has about the godhead- it is nonessential doctrine and certainly non-essential to the primary purpose of this site :o)
Quote from: Molly on July 02, 2013, 05:56:43 AM
Quote from: eagleswayIsaiah says of Israel in the wildernes "They rebelled agaisnt the Holy Spirit"
David says in Psalms, "Take not Thy Holy Spirit from me"
These two together are interesting, eaglesway. How can we make them go together unless the Spirit is a person.
How did they rebel against the Spirit in the wilderness? They did not have the Spirit as we do, only a very few like David had the Holy Spirit.
So how could they rebel against something they did not have?
But, God in the Old Testament says, they rebelled against me.
So that would lead one to conclude the Holy Spirit is God.
But then David says to God, Don't take your Spirit away from me.
That would lead one to believe that the Spirit is under the control of God.
So if the Spirit is God and under the control of God--
The only way to logically make sense of these two facts, imo, is if there are two Gods.
I understand that argument Molly :o)
I just dont believe the Holy Spirit is a separate co-equal person. if the I AM is an ocean of water. Jesus is the fountain head through which the fountain of His(the one true invisible God)Spirit springs forth - the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God- all the same water which is the I AM who is becoming ALL IN ALL.
I am not trying to convince you, I am just trying to explain how I see it, in brief- without writing my book about it here on Tentmaker LOLOL
Quote from: eaglesway on July 02, 2013, 06:23:43 AM
Also, I dont think Gary should need to pre-justify any belief he has about the godhead- it is nonessential doctrine and certainly non-essential to the primary purpose of this site :o)
I agree. But I must ask then why a trinity and freewill subject discussion had been not allowed until lately? I have found that if all doctrines taught are not inspected by those who believe, how can a truth be learned or enlarged? I am glad the two subjects have had a discussion, even though barriers still stand. So, we ALL must yield to wisdom by way and through the Holy Spirit. :HeartThrob: Thanks EW
I think we all actually always felt that way. It was disallowed because there were some very divisive, hostile, chaotic results in past discussions.
This has been an experiment.
It was just a matter of trying it on again and seeing if we could keep the discussions within the guidelines. So far so good. :o)
:HeartThrob:
Well, me personally, when I was led to find this site, was overjoyed to find brothers and sisters in Christ who read and studied the Bible accepting it's truths that had been and are, hidden by main steam traditional religious beliefs. Reading as truth seekers, studying words as best we could using books with Hebrew and Greek words and their meanings and definitions. Learning from others search who for truth and finding that correction and reproof are not tools to degrade what we as individuals found to be false or correct but had been corrected and aided by love to further our search.
We accept the Truth of the Words in God's Word, when some came to understand that the teaching of an everlasting torment to be false and that the meaning and definitions of words such as "hell, forever and everlasting" do not and never were what main steam traditional religious beliefs taught. We all found these teachings to be false, being revealed and opened by the guiding of the Holy Spirit, The Teacher.
So, and with all due respect, when the discussion of the subject of a trinity teaching "of 3 persons in 1 blessed trinity" was brought up and we as growing students of the word cannot look up words like "trinity" to substantiate it's worth as a doctrine worthy of following where within the covers of the Bible there is no such teaching by the OT prophets and no evidence that the NT writers speak of any such teaching, there in lies the proof for me, personally, that it is a teaching not worth the effort put forth by the teaching's followers, in their attempt to prove the teaching which has no biblical foundation.
Just looking up the word "person" in the Bible was very eye opening to me. I have no need to be "right," but I do have a great yearning to believe the Truth or at the least, following the teaching of The Teacher and Apostels, without religions theories not found in the Bible.
All Praise to His Name :dsunny:
Micah, with all due respect, you are not the arbiter of Truth.
You have your own opinions and that is all they are.
Most of the Christian world and the earliest church believe in the trinity.
Maybe they are on to something.
But, I do notice, just like Balaam, God puts the word 'blessed' in your mouth whenever you say, trinity.
You can't help but speak the truth--The blessed trinity. Yes it is.
Because as someone once said, our religion is the only religion in the world where love preceded life.
And, before anything else came into being, there was love and relationship within the Godhead.
...the glorious gospel of the happy God...
The words in the Bible are not opinion, but words that are NOT in the Bible are opinion.
And God does not put the words, "blessed trinity" in my mouth I just type those words because YOU put them into the discussion.
And I have stated numerous times that I am not a fan or follower of religion as it is has been bantered about and is bantered about.
Jas 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
I ask the Lord everyday to help me with my tongue, whether just regular conversation, but mostly when I am set before those who believe in main stream religion's stories, and He has helped me much just in this thread.
Nothing "trinue or trinity" here that I can see.
Godhead...G2304 theios From G2316; godlike (neuter as noun, divinity): - divine, godhead.
G2316 theos Of uncertain affinity; a deity, the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].
G2305 theiotēs From G2304; divinity (abstractly): - godhead.
G2320 theotēs From G2316; divinity (abstractly): - godhead.
If there was a three person God head and each is co equal
Why would Jesus get all the Glory for sacrificing.
If God is Love and all three are co equal how did it come about that
Jesus got Picked to come in the flesh.
When they were working out this choice.
Did any one in the God head have a slightly different idea than the other.
If not then either our fundamental understanding of personhood is wrong.
or our fundamental understanding of the Trinity is wrong.
Molly. with all due respect, you, Micah, me, etc. none of us are arbiters of truth nor do we claim to be. (Well a couple of crazies we've had on the forum did claim that)
Everyone has there opinions and indeed, that is all they are, yours, mine and Micahs included.
Most of the christian world believes in everlasting, burning, Hell. That doesn't mean they are right on the trinity. Truth is not determined by majority opinion.
Being a christian for 40 years myself and a trinitarian for most of it, I never used the term "Blessed trinity" except when singing hymns that contained the words. You sure won't find "blessed trinity" in ANY bible translation so why you say people automatically put "blessed" when using the term trinity is curious to me.
AND...IMO - Love did not precede Life Since God is Love and God is Life and nothing preceded God. :Peace2:
Quote from: dajomaco on July 02, 2013, 06:58:41 PM
If there was a three person God head and each is co equal
Why would Jesus get all the Glory for sacrificing.
If God is Love and all three are co equal how did it come about that
Jesus got Picked to come in the flesh.
When they were working out this choice.
Did any one in the God head have a slightly different idea than the other.
If not then either our fundamental understanding of personhood is wrong.
or our fundamental understanding of the Trinity is wrong.
:dsunny:
Quote from: ded2daworld on July 02, 2013, 07:03:39 PM
Molly. with all due respect, you, Micah, me, etc. none of us are arbiters of truth nor do we claim to be. (Well a couple of crazies we've had on the forum did claim that)
Everyone has there opinions and indeed, that is all they are, yours, mine and Micahs included.
Most of the christian world believes in everlasting, burning, Hell. That doesn't mean they are right on the trinity. Truth is not determined by majority opinion.
Being a christian for 40 years myself and a trinitarian for most of it, I never used the term "Blessed trinity" except when singing hymns that contained the words. You sure won't find "blessed trinity" in ANY bible translation so why you say people automatically put "blessed" when using the term trinity is curious to me.
AND...IMO - Love did not precede Life Since God is Love and God is Life and nothing preceded God. :Peace2:
:gimmefive: :Peace2: :dsunny:
I think therefore I, am.
If I said this to someone face to face.
They would not look for next two people to be me .
The rocks can give more glory to God .
Than a person with out Gods spirit .
That our minds give personality to all aspects of God
left unfiltered becomes idolatry ( making a tree an idol).
Quote from: ded2daworld on July 02, 2013, 07:03:39 PM
Molly. with all due respect, you, Micah, me, etc. none of us are arbiters of truth nor do we claim to be. (Well a couple of crazies we've had on the forum did claim that)
Everyone has there opinions and indeed, that is all they are, yours, mine and Micahs included.
Most of the christian world believes in everlasting, burning, Hell. That doesn't mean they are right on the trinity. Truth is not determined by majority opinion.
Being a christian for 40 years myself and a trinitarian for most of it, I never used the term "Blessed trinity" except when singing hymns that contained the words. You sure won't find "blessed trinity" in ANY bible translation so why you say people automatically put "blessed" when using the term trinity is curious to me.
AND...IMO - Love did not precede Life Since God is Love and God is Life and nothing preceded God. :Peace2:
Maybe you don't know the history of 'blessed trinity' on this thread. I was accused of buying the church line on the trinity [as if that was a bad thing] and I said all I knew about the church trinity doctrine was from a song I learned as a child, and I sang a bit of it which included the words, 'blessed trinity.' So now Micah spits the words 'blessed trinity' at me every time he mentions the trinity. He means to demean me by saying it.
But, I think God puts the word blessed in his mouth, whenever he says trinity. And, instead of feeling demeaned, I smile. That's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it.
Maybe I should make myself clearer about my last post, though. Love preceded creation in our religion and no other. Because there was love and relationship in the Godhead before the creation of anything. That is what I meant, and a better way of saying it. :Peace2:
It seems to me if we could start at a point of agreement.
Is there a definition of personhood that you agree with Molly
If you have already.
Please give me post again or give me post #.
A person is an individual with boundaries, a mind, a will, and a personality.
How's that for starters?
I am a person and I would never confuse myself with you, also a person.
Quote from: Molly on July 02, 2013, 07:14:00 PM
Quote from: ded2daworld on July 02, 2013, 07:03:39 PM
Molly. with all due respect, you, Micah, me, etc. none of us are arbiters of truth nor do we claim to be. (Well a couple of crazies we've had on the forum did claim that)
Everyone has there opinions and indeed, that is all they are, yours, mine and Micahs included.
Most of the christian world believes in everlasting, burning, Hell. That doesn't mean they are right on the trinity. Truth is not determined by majority opinion.
Being a christian for 40 years myself and a trinitarian for most of it, I never used the term "Blessed trinity" except when singing hymns that contained the words. You sure won't find "blessed trinity" in ANY bible translation so why you say people automatically put "blessed" when using the term trinity is curious to me.
AND...IMO - Love did not precede Life Since God is Love and God is Life and nothing preceded God. :Peace2:
Maybe you don't know the history of 'blessed trinity' on this thread. I was accused of buying the church line on the trinity [as if that was a bad thing] and I said all I knew about the church trinity doctrine was from a song I learned as a child, and I sang a bit of it which included the words, 'blessed trinity.' So now Micah spits the words 'blessed trinity' at me every time he mentions the trinity. He means to demean me by saying it.
But, I think God puts the word blessed in his mouth, whenever he says trinity. And, instead of feeling demeaned, I smile. That's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it.
Maybe I should make myself clearer about my last post, though. Love preceded creation in our religion and no other. Because there was love and relationship in the Godhead before the creation of anything. That is what I meant, and a better way of saying it. :Peace2:
Now here, supposedly I am to take offence, "So now Micah
spits the words 'blessed trinity' at me every time he mentions the trinity.
He means to demean me by saying it." (Molly)
I do not take offence :dsunny:
No, that is not true. I merely use/type the words that you yourself qualify and stand behind(or next to) when you commit yourself to use those non-biblical words.
"But, I think God puts the word blessed in his mouth, whenever he says trinity. And, instead of feeling demeaned, I smile. That's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it." (Molly)
No opinion here, but after looking up the word "blessed," I find that by using blessed with the word trinity, I am discrediting myself. Blessed has to do with "adorable, to speak well of, praise, fortunate, happy; kneel as an act of adoration(OT)." So by my supplying the word blessed, even though I am just quoting the typing of your responses, I am giving honor to a non-biblical word. I shall not again.
Thank you. :dsunny:
The 'blessed trinity' of the happy God.
Oh, yes, that is what it is indeed.
"blessed"
G3107
μακάριος
makarios
mak-ar'-ee-os
A prolonged form of the poetical μάκαρ makar (meaning the same); supremely blest; by extension fortunate, well off: - blessed, happy (X -ier).
Quote from: Molly on July 02, 2013, 08:48:34 PM
The 'blessed trinity' of the happy God.
Oh, yes, that is what it is indeed.
"blessed"
G3107
μακάριος
makarios
mak-ar'-ee-os
A prolonged form of the poetical μάκαρ makar (meaning the same); supremely blest; by extension fortunate, well off: - blessed, happy (X -ier).
Take pause my friend, my whole point is the word has no place being married to a non Bible word.
That was the whole point. :doh:
My name is a non Bible word but I am ..
the blessed molly. That was my whole point.
Quote from: Molly on July 02, 2013, 09:06:40 PM
My name is a non Bible word but I am ..
the blessed molly. That was my whole point.
Your point is well taken, I don't know how to spell tushay, but tushay. But, there it is, but aren't you taking it out of the context to what we are speaking about? Maybe not, I too am most richly blessed. :HeartThrob:
Touche' French :Peace2:
Of course. we don't use the word "Molly" in our description of God or Jesus or Holy Spirit. So is irrelevant to a trinity discussion.
Exactly, Molly is a non-biblical name, with no bearing on what the scriptures say about the godhead- just like Trinity, LOLOL (Jus funnin, stay blessed :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on July 03, 2013, 12:51:32 AM
Exactly, Molly is a non-biblical name, with no bearing on what the scriptures say about the godhead- just like Trinity, LOLOL (Jus funnin, stay blessed :o)
You through print have outraged my funny bone! :LH: really :LH: :gimmefive:
Actually I think you boys are wrong because I believe molly has a lot to do with the trinity.
I believe I enter the trinity, and become part of it, through the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
In fact, to me, that's the whole point.
I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."
--Mat 26:29
Molly should we be discussing any other subject, one that is found in the Bible , I would be applauding you in you adamant stance. But since we have been discussing a word, "trinity" that has no evidence of being found in the Bible, I say alas. And should you be or are entering the "trinity" I only hope it is not an abduction of some kind. :Peace2:
YHWH
Isaiah 45:23-24: "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. They will say of Me, 'Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And" all who were angry at Him shall be put to shame
JESUS
Philippians 2:9-11: "Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
GOD
For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God."
[Rom 14:11]
10 So why do you condemn another believer? Why do you look down on another believer? Remember, we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For the Scriptures say,
"'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bend to me,
and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.'"
12 Yes, each of us will give a personal account to God. 13 So let's stop condemning each other. Decide instead to live in such a way that you will not cause another believer to stumble and fall.
--Rom 14
QuoteNum 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
This is a great verse Micah posted earlier page 31 I believe. If God is not a man and men are people than how can God be one of 3 persons in 1? If the bible does not make mention of the HS being a person than why are we discussing it? It appears what we are discussing is someones interpretation of scripture and I don't care about private interpretations. Like Micah has stated a number of times its erroneous if you can't find it clearly in the written Word. Is there really anyone here who believes in things not clearly stated? Would God leave out something as important as this in His Word?
Quote from: Molly on July 03, 2013, 02:18:14 AM
YHWH
Isaiah 45:23-24: "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. They will say of Me, 'Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And" all who were angry at Him shall be put to shame
JESUS
Philippians 2:9-11: "Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
GOD
For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God."
[Rom 14:11]
I don't believe this....
Isaiah 45:23-24: this is (I will use your YHWH) and since no one has heard the voice of the Father so Jesus is speaking for the Father who originated Isa. 45:23-24, so it's the same message. And Rom 14:11, just who do you Molly suggest is the God Paul speaks of if not the same Lord God of Isa.45 as well as the Lord God's speaking through the person Jesus, who from all my reading is the LORD.
You are chasing your tail, in just a manner of speaking, for you no evidence in the Bible of such a thing as a trinity
Tell you what if you quit this thread I will with gladness. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Anything else extremely pertinent, not yet said, and directly related to the Trinity discussion?
Going, going...
Quote from: jabcat on July 03, 2013, 03:04:36 AM
Anything else extremely pertinent, not yet said, and directly related to the Trinity discussion?
Going, going...
I'm still going strong.
David tells us the Holy Spirit is a Person:
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in 1Sheol, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand will alead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
--Psalm 139
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. [2 Cor 3:17]
I think the issue has been fully discussed. There was never any intention, on my part at least, to convince anyone of anything- I just enjoyed seeing the alternate views expressed, including Molly's view on the Trinity, tho obviously I disagree with that view.
I never expected to see agreement arise out of the discussion- but I do believe some enlightenment may have squeezed through our zeal ;o)
As far as I am concerned the thread should be sealed, for a time..... and maybe even stickied for future reference.
In my opinion there is no further edification to be had from reiterating(or regurgitating :o.) previously expressed viewpoints
:iagree: and hopefully feelings, which we all need to overcome, were not damaged, I was certainly not hurt in anyway and i hope no one else was. Good thinking EW this thread has run it's course. God Bless my friend. :HeartThrob:
Yes, by all means please make like an Amalekite and run that thing through! Lol
Hey Colleen, you got any new thoughts? And why did you use an Amalekite as the doer of your deed?
Just wondering :dontknow:
Such disrespect is unbelievable to me.
Quote from: Molly on July 03, 2013, 03:53:03 AM
Such disrespect is unbelievable to me.
Where is your humor? I meant no disrespect, if you are refering to my Achmad statement. I will remove it.
I had been over at the other thread reading the Saul discussion.
Quote from: Colleen on July 03, 2013, 04:45:39 AM
I had been over at the other thread reading the Saul discussion.
Then I understand. The first thing I thought was you must be reading Samuel like me, Amalekite through out, at least 1st Samuel is right there in your face. But I will agree let the Amalekite do it. :dsunny:
I'm outta here :dsunny:
Well, as Val Kilmer (Doc Holiday) said to Michael Bien(Johnny Ringo) in Tombstone......
"I'll be your huckleberry"
I may be a little slow on the uptake, I am not sure where the massive disrespect occurred, but lest it occur again- Grace and peace to all in the name of God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ!