ET for a season

[shawn]

When I was young I didn't have relationship with God.  I tried to be a "good Christian" because I feared God.  I didn't want to burn in hell.  It had very little to do with relationship.  With that said, I learned of his ways, his love, mercy, goodness and the futility of works during this time.  As I began learning about his love for me through events in my life I began to ask myself about the nature of God.  I began asking the tough questions.  Would a God who loves agape torture any person in hell for eternity?  I believe God has shown me that he doesn't torture any person for eternity.  

What I know is when I was a child I acted like a child.  I needed the stern hand of God.  I needed the fear of God.  I believe I needed to fear hell or I would have had no motivation to seek him.  I sought him initially to avoid the flame.  As I grew close to God the concept of eternal torture kept me from deep relationship with him because I questioned his nature.  That is when I matured and he was able to show me one of his mysteries.  I was able to handle the truth.  I serve God not because I fear the flame but because I love him.  I question whether I would have had the motivation to seek him without the concept of ET.

So, it's my belief that God uses even the concept of eternal torture to draw individuals to him.  Even if he uses that concept for only a season in our lives.

[jabcat]

Yeah, Shawn, I believe God uses everything to work His Plan.  It's His Plan.  He veils and unveils.

I consider believers upon Jesus, whether they also believe in ET, ED, or UR, as my brothers and sisters. 

God is working all things according to the counsel of His will.

We plan our way, but God directs our steps.

[Aleax]

I believe God is actually using UR and ED for a season for overly sentimental people who would otherwise reject Him for thinking the Biblical Truthery of ET is unfair somehow. One day we all will be made understand why burning sinners forever is Perfect Divine Justice.

Kinda like, if a small child happened to catch a glimpse of Saddam Hussein's televised execution he/she would probably ask the parents why do they have to do that to this man. However after growing up a bit he/she would realize Hussein didn't exactly get executed for helping old ladies across the street.

[WhiteWings]

And that's why they keep executing him an endless number of times. Not really executing because that won't be fun. He would be tortured for eternity.

[jabcat]

I believe God is actually using UR and ED for a season for overly sentimental people who would otherwise reject Him for thinking the Biblical Truthery of ET is unfair somehow. One day we all will be made understand why burning sinners forever is Perfect Divine Justice.

God gave me the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior 30 years ago.  All of that time [- 3.5 yrs] I believed in ET, because I thought that's what the Bible teaches.  3.5 years ago God allowed me to see His glorious plan of ultimate reconciliation - His plan to bring all His creation back to Himself, and I now realize God is even bigger and better than I originally thought.

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.  Romans 11:32.

[Andy]

God gave me the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior 30 years ago.  All of that time [- 3.5 yrs] I believed in ET, because I thought that's what the Bible teaches.  3.5 years ago God allowed me to see His glorious plan of ultimate reconciliation - His plan to bring all His creation back to Himself, and I now realize God is even bigger and better than I originally thought.

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.  Romans 11:32.

Amen!  :thumbsup:  Praise God!  :cloud9: 

[shawn]

I believe God is actually using UR and ED for a season for overly sentimental people who would otherwise reject Him for thinking the Biblical Truthery of ET is unfair somehow. One day we all will be made understand why burning sinners forever is Perfect Divine Justice.

Kinda like, if a small child happened to catch a glimpse of Saddam Hussein's televised execution he/she would probably ask the parents why do they have to do that to this man. However after growing up a bit he/she would realize Hussein didn't exactly get executed for helping old ladies across the street.

I hope you are joking.  Even with limited human compassion and love I doubt many would sponsor the eternal torment of even a man like Hussein.  I can not wrap my mind around perfect divine justice if it means torturing creation eternally for temporal sin.  I can't think of any sin/s that in the sense of justice are requiring eternal torment.  Punishment for temporal sin should have an end.

So, you believe that even though we were born into sin...slaves to sin (by no choice of our own) and only God can make us aware of our need for him...and only God can save us, deliver us through his predestined will...that man deserves to burn eternally?  I doubt I could ever understand that.  I don't think I could serve a God like that out of love.  I could serve him out of self preserving trembling fear.  I would always wonder...what if I got this wrong...that wrong...will I burn?  What about my friend...grandma...all those people I love who left this earth without God.  Am I to sit in heaven and smugly look into the depths of hell and acknowledge that they deserve to be tortured for eternity?  Is this the God you serve?  I must admit it angers me to the depths of my spirit when I hear stuff like this.  And it shocks me any Christian could accept this interpretation of scripture.

[jabcat]

Good post Shawn. 

[Lefein]

I believe God is actually using UR and ED for a season for overly sentimental people who would otherwise reject Him for thinking the Biblical Truthery of ET is unfair somehow. One day we all will be made understand why burning sinners forever is Perfect Divine Justice.

Kinda like, if a small child happened to catch a glimpse of Saddam Hussein's televised execution he/she would probably ask the parents why do they have to do that to this man. However after growing up a bit he/she would realize Hussein didn't exactly get executed for helping old ladies across the street.

I am glad that YAHWEH is not a deceitful spirit like Satan, the Liar.  I am glad that YAHWEH my father is Love, and does not hide any "dark secrets" like Eternal Torment, by letting me believe Universal Reconciliation, out of the fear that I might reject him as a cruel, barbaric, tyrant worthy of his own Hell.  I am glad that YAHWEH, is the Lord of All, and will be All in All, just like he said, and that we will one day understand why God's perfect divine justice, has saved all men, through his perfect, flawless, unhinderable victory on the cross.

Every tongue, confess ye, and praise the Lord, your father YAHWEH!  Who is the God of the living, not the dead, he who is that I AM, he who is Love.

[Aleax]

Shawn, no, I was not joking. I just wasn't in the best possible state of mind when I wrote that post.

But I'm not definitely the only one who's been there. Can't remember if it was on this forum or somewhere else but I once saw an ET'er argue God considers all the non-elect less than human. He claimed 1st Timothy 4 has been mistranslated and it should read "...savior of all men, that is, of the believers" instead of "...savior of all men, especially of the believers". Therefore, when we read about God wanting to save "all men" it actually means "all those worthy to be called men, that is, the believers".

Now that's some sick theology there...  :thumbdown:

Anyway I've come to agree with you on what you wrote in the original post. Men need the fear of God to be motivated to seek Him. Also, if it was an indisputable fact Bible teaches UR/Annihilation the "powers that be" probably wouldn't allow us average Joes and Janes read it. This actually was reality during the Dark Ages.

Still, some of the most disturbing things have been made because of the ET doctrine. People have burned their enemies to death, John Calvin being one of the most famous examples. People have killed their children to prevent them from reaching "the age of accountability". In the 16th century Sweden there were a lot of people who were tired of life and wanted to kill themselves but couldn't carry out their plans because they feared ending up in a never ending hell. So they found a nice workaround: they killed someone else. That way they got what they wanted, an execution AND a chance to tell God they were sorry.

[WhiteWings]

He claimed 1st Timothy 4 has been mistranslated and it should read "...savior of all men, that is, of the believers" instead of "...savior of all men, especially of the believers".

^KJV1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
^KJV2Ti 4:13 The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.

μάλιστα
malista
Thayer Definition:
1) especially, chiefly, most of all, above all
Seems you discovered a new view Aleax :winkgrin:

View#1 (mine)
1 Tim 4:10] All are saved.
2 Tim 4:13] The cloke + books + do absolutely not forget the parchments.

View#2
1 Tim 4:10] All men that believe
2 Tim 4:13] Cloke and books are not parchments so the verse tells us that only the parchment should be taken.

View#2 (the one you wrote about)
1 Tim 4:10] All men that believe
2 Tim 4:13] Thsi verse tells us that cloke=books=parchments
^ET2Ti 4:13 When you are at Troas take my parchements also known as books or cloke.

I'm not a linguist but View#2 and especially view#3 don't seem right :laughing7:

[Aleax]

I'm not a linguist but View#2 and especially view#3 don't seem right :laughing7:

Indeed.

I'm not a linguist either but there was this SotW guy (Craig) on this forum who said he's been studying the word "malista" for 5 years and has seen zero evidence it should be translated as "exclusively".

[shawn]

Shawn, no, I was not joking. I just wasn't in the best possible state of mind when I wrote that post.

But I'm not definitely the only one who's been there. Can't remember if it was on this forum or somewhere else but I once saw an ET'er argue God considers all the non-elect less than human. He claimed 1st Timothy 4 has been mistranslated and it should read "...savior of all men, that is, of the believers" instead of "...savior of all men, especially of the believers". Therefore, when we read about God wanting to save "all men" it actually means "all those worthy to be called men, that is, the believers".

Now that's some sick theology there...  :thumbdown:

Anyway I've come to agree with you on what you wrote in the original post. Men need the fear of God to be motivated to seek Him. Also, if it was an indisputable fact Bible teaches UR/Annihilation the "powers that be" probably wouldn't allow us average Joes and Janes read it. This actually was reality during the Dark Ages.

Still, some of the most disturbing things have been made because of the ET doctrine. People have burned their enemies to death, John Calvin being one of the most famous examples. People have killed their children to prevent them from reaching "the age of accountability". In the 16th century Sweden there were a lot of people who were tired of life and wanted to kill themselves but couldn't carry out their plans because they feared ending up in a never ending hell. So they found a nice workaround: they killed someone else. That way they got what they wanted, an execution AND a chance to tell God they were sorry.

Yeah I kinda figured out after the fact that you were just in a really bad place that night.  That is indeed some sick doctrine...making mankind subhuman.  It's this kind of thinking that allows men to commit all sorts of crimes against humanity.  It was this mindset that was behind the Holocaust.

[shawn]

I'm not a linguist but View#2 and especially view#3 don't seem right :laughing7:

Indeed.

I'm not a linguist either but there was this SotW guy (Craig) on this forum who said he's been studying the word "malista" for 5 years and has seen zero evidence it should be translated as "exclusively".

2 Timothy 4.13 reads:

When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, also the books, and above all the parchments. (2Ti 4.13, RSV)

The phrase and above all is from the Greek word μάλιστα, typically translated as especially. The word μάλιστα is used elsewhere in the Pastoral Epistles, perhaps most prominently in 1Ti 4.10:

For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (1Ti 4.10, RSV)

In 1979, T.C. Skeat published an article in the Journal of Theological Studies that proposed a new sense of μάλιστα; that of that is or namely. This has potential soteriological consequences in the translation of 1Ti 4.10. Skeat's suggestion has made its way into commentaries and articles having to do with these verses.

In 2002, Vern Poythress published a response to Skeat's article, in JTS, titled The Meaning of μάλιστα in 2Ti 4.13 and Related Verses.

http://www.pastoralepistles.com/oldsite/DisplayItem.asp?type=biblio-serial&id=2005-10-17T16-49-27Z

[WhiteWings]

I'm not a linguist but View#2 and especially view#3 don't seem right :laughing7:

Indeed.

I'm not a linguist either but there was this SotW guy (Craig) on this forum who said he's been studying the word "malista" for 5 years and has seen zero evidence it should be translated as "exclusively".

Pitty Craig is gone. He has his own forum. http://www.wisefire.tv/
Do you have a link to a post/aritcle on malista (by Craig)?

[Aleax]

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1875.0

Seems to be mostly Peacetroll (Eric Landström?) vs. Craig.

Here's one of the most early posts in the thread.

Not much there that proves your original point. Not much I need to point out.

Whether it is,"in particular, specifically, cheif of all, etc." it still does not translate, "in otherwords," or "that is,".

As I said, MALISTA means, "Especially, with special notice to, in particular, etc." That also includes 'specifically'

So going back to my example:

I walked into a room and said hello to all the guests, especially Mr. and Mrs. Lyons who travelled all the way from Austria to be with me tonight.

I walked into a room and said hello to all the guests, specifically Mr. and Mrs. Lyons who travelled all the way from Austria to be with me tonight.

I walked into a room and said hello to all the guests, specially Mr. and Mrs. Lyons who travelled all the way from Austria to be with me tonight.

I walked into a room and said hello to all the guests, above all Mr. and Mrs. Lyons who travelled all the way from Austria to be with me tonight.

Now does this mean I did not say hello to all the guests? No.
Now does this mean I only said hello to Mr. and Mrs. Lyons? No.

You still have not demonstrated or shown any proof that MALISTA means, "in otherwords," or "that is."

Next

The definition must be universal and not specific to only one context.

Here is other places "MALISTA" is used.

Acts 20:38
What grieved them most [MASLISTA] was his statement that they would never see his face again. Then they accompanied him to the ship.

Were they grieved only by his statement, or most of all by his statement? There is no place where it would mean, 'in otherwords' or 'that is'.

Acts 25:26
But I have nothing definite to write to His Majesty about him. Therefore I have brought him before all of you, and especially [MALISTA] before you, King Agrippa, so that as a result of this investigation I may have something to write.

Who is 'all of you'? The audience room with the high ranking officers and the leading men of the city (v23). Did he bring them only to King Agrippa, or before the high ranking officers and the leading men of the city with special note that King Agrippa was also there?

There is once again no indicator of 'in otherwords', or 'that is' could ever be used in this statement.

Galatians 6:10   
Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially [MALISTA] to those who belong to the family of believers.

Once again, are we commanded only to do good to the family of believers? No. We are to do good to all people, in particular, with special note, most of all, especially, those who belong to the family of believers. There is once again no indicator of 'in otherwords', or 'that is' could ever be used in this statement, and if it is, it is a gospel not as Paul ever preached.

Philippians 4:22
All the saints send you greetings, especially [MALISTA] those who belong to Caesar's household.

Did all the saints send greetings only to Caesar's household? Or were greetings sent to all of the Philippians, with special note to those who belong to Caesar's household? If Paul was to use 'in otherwords' or 'that is', he is wasting his words. He then should have said, "All the saints send greetings to those who belong to Caear's household ." But he did not, because the greetings was to all the Philippians to whom the letter was addressed, but he wanted to make special note of greeting the members of Caesar's household.

I could go on and on, on how much you missed the mark on this one PT. There is 15 more verses that use MALISTA and none can be translated 'in otherwords' or 'that is' or 'only'. etc.

Lastly,

Where Scripture states, "That is" or "In otherwords" it states it 'HINA', or 'IDOU', not "MASLISTA".

Your argument is weak to support your position. I can use your own referenced Greek Scholars to prove it so. You just don't know what especially, or specifically, means. Grammar must ALSO be taken into consideration, not just the word itself.

The post in a nutshell:

-there are ~20 verses that use the Greek word "MALISTA" and most of them can't be translated "in otherwords", "that is", "only" or "exclusively".
-where Scripture states "that is" or "in otherwords" it states it "HINA", or "IDOU", not "MALISTA".

So, if we really should read 1Ti 4.10 as "savior of all men, that is, of those believing" how come the word "MALISTA" was used since

a) in other verses it's used, the word is shown to (almost) always mean "especially" and
b) there would have been 2 more fitting words to use, in otherwords ( :laughing7: ) "HINA" or "IDOU".

[WhiteWings]

The post in a nutshell:

-there are ~20 verses that use the Greek word "MALISTA" and most of them can't be translated "in otherwords", "that is", "only" or "exclusively".
-where Scripture states "that is" or "in otherwords" it states it "HINA", or "IDOU", not "MALISTA".

So, if we really should read 1Ti 4.10 as "savior of all men, that is, of those believing" how come the word "MALISTA" was used since

a) in other verses it's used, the word is shown to (almost) always mean "especially" and
b) there would have been 2 more fitting words to use, in otherwords ( :laughing7: ) "HINA" or "IDOU".

Sounds a lot like the aion translation. That's also translated in many ways to fit into the verse.
Seems the ETs need a lot of twisting and turning to explain away many none ETish words....

[Cardinal]

Pitty Craig is gone. He has his own forum. http://www.wisefire.tv/
Do you have a link to a post/aritcle on malista (by Craig)?
[/quote]

:cloud9: I could be wrong, but I don't think Wisefire is Craig's forum although he is on there......

[WhiteWings]

Dunno.
I know he had his own forum. A bit like this one. Text only. Then there was an announcement of changing to a more multimedia concept. That's Wisefire I think.
But  :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I had asked a Kingdom minister when it first started, whose board it was, and they said it was more than one person, and that they wanted to remain anonymous...... :dontknow:

[Aleax]

Sounds a lot like the aion translation. That's also translated in many ways to fit into the verse.
Seems the ETs need a lot of twisting and turning to explain away many none ETish words....

Yeah, even tho I'm still not 100% convinced all the "Universalistic" verses really mean what UR'ers claim they mean, there also are many things ET'ers are having tough time with. God wants all men to be saved, yet He only elects some. One attempt at explaining this away has been introducing a doctrine of God having both a disclosed will and an undisclosed will, iow. His disclosed will is He wants to save ereyone but His undisclosed will is He wants to send most everyone to hell. However that'd be borderline lying in my opinion, and I'm sure it said somewhere in the Bible God can not lie.

[WhiteWings]

One attempt at explaining this away has been introducing a doctrine of God having both a disclosed will and an undisclosed will, iow. His disclosed will is He wants to save ereyone but His undisclosed will is He wants to send most everyone to hell. However that'd be borderline lying in my opinion, and I'm sure it said somewhere in the Bible God can not lie.

:thumbsup:
(Mark 3:24) And, if a kingdom against itself be divided, that kingdom cannot be made to stand;

It gets even worse with a divided King...

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: I had asked a Kingdom minister when it first started, whose board it was, and they said it was more than one person, and that they wanted to remain anonymous...... :dontknow:

Craig has broken the vow of silence  :clapping:

[Lefein]

God doesn't cross his fingers behind his back.

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: I had asked a Kingdom minister when it first started, whose board it was, and they said it was more than one person, and that they wanted to remain anonymous...... :dontknow:

Craig has broken the vow of silence  :clapping:

:cloud9: Interesting......