Tentmaker Forum

Video: 'Jesus, Saviour of All men, especially believers'.

I've just watched this video and found it very interesting.  I wouldn't have room to pose this question on the comments section so I'll ask here if I may.

I used to think this was one of the strongest 'proof' verses for UR, until I happened to see a Bible translation putting that verse this way: ''Jesus, Saviour of all kinds of men, especially those who believe', or something like that.  Now, you'll agree that if this translation is correct, it somewhat alters the understanding of the previous translation and what the video discusses.  As I don't know any NT Greek, I thought I'd be cheeky and employ the help of some Greek 'scholars' on a Greek/Latin forum.  I asked if 'all' could be and should be translated 'all kinds of' and the reaction was mixed.  One said he couldn't see why it should be translated like that and another one said yes, it was permissable for 'all kinds of'.  If this is the case, could it not be argued that Paul is speaking of Jesus saving all kinds of people, and especially those who believe, bearing in mind that he often warns 'believers' to remain faithful, be careful they don't 'fall', etc.  This would seem to suggest salvation isn't 'guaranteed' but I don't think it need mean that, but rather, 'just' believing isn't enough (demons believe), you have to run the race and keep your eyes on the prize etc.  I worry that in our eagerness to 'see' UR (I'm very eager to believe this is true) we 'translate' verses like this to 'fit in' with this hope.  Then again, the opposite could be true of the 'limited salvation' camp!  I don't know................... :sigh:

P.S- even if it turns out UR isn't true, surely God couldn't blame us for having this hope?   :2c:

Quote from: Cat on September 11, 2009, 08:24:54 PMI worry that in our eagerness to 'see' UR (I'm very eager to believe this is true) we 'translate' verses like this to 'fit in' with this hope.

The same could be said of ET. Just to make their doctrine fit the water down all.
What looks most straightforward to you: All=all or all=some

QuoteI thought I'd be cheeky and employ the help of some Greek 'scholars' on a Greek/Latin forum.  I asked if 'all' could be and should be translated 'all kinds of' and the reaction was mixed.  One said he couldn't see why it should be translated like that and another one said yes, it was permissable for 'all kinds of'.

I think we should picture ourselfs as the audience of Jesus and/or His apostles.
We are overcomplicationg things. First of all the vast majority didn't have any education.
Secondly none of them had the NT teachings. (they where written much later)
Now imagine how the Gospel was spread. At least in my personal opinion.
I think the teachings never where 100% of the NT. Likely the core of the NT in every village plus some extra's on demand.
And even if they preached 500 pages of NT do you think any of those uneducated people would even think all was not all because is was indirectly implied 3 hours ago by some vague parable?
It takes scholars (university) years (?) to write a commentary and unravel all the verses. And then some farmer that likely can't even count his sheep is to understand all is not all?

Wouldn't that be like preaching half truth? Or maybe a waste of time because the audience can't understand it?

If only it was that simple.  Thanks for your thoughts on this.

Maybe it really is that simple? Believe like a child.

Quote from: Cat on September 11, 2009, 08:24:54 PM
Video: 'Jesus, Saviour of All men, especially believers'.

I've just watched this video and found it very interesting.  I wouldn't have room to pose this question on the comments section so I'll ask here if I may.

I used to think this was one of the strongest 'proof' verses for UR, until I happened to see a Bible translation putting that verse this way: "Jesus, Saviour of all kinds of men, especially those who believe', or something like that.  Now, you'll agree that if this translation is correct, it somewhat alters the understanding of the previous translation and what the video discusses.  As I don't know any NT Greek, I thought I'd be cheeky and employ the help of some Greek 'scholars' on a Greek/Latin forum.  I asked if 'all' could be and should be translated 'all kinds of' and the reaction was mixed.  One said he couldn't see why it should be translated like that and another one said yes, it was permissable for 'all kinds of'.  If this is the case, could it not be argued that Paul is speaking of Jesus saving all kinds of people, and especially those who believe, bearing in mind that he often warns 'believers' to remain faithful, be careful they don't 'fall', etc.  This would seem to suggest salvation isn't 'guaranteed' but I don't think it need mean that, but rather, 'just' believing isn't enough (demons believe), you have to run the race and keep your eyes on the prize etc.  I worry that in our eagerness to 'see' UR (I'm very eager to believe this is true) we 'translate' verses like this to 'fit in' with this hope.  Then again, the opposite could be true of the 'limited salvation' camp!  I don't know................... :sigh:

P.S- even if it turns out UR isn't true, surely God couldn't blame us for having this hope?   :2c:

Cat,
Here is what I have learned about the word "pas" meaning all:

It always means EACH and EVERY unless modified by context, in which case it still means each and every, only pertaining to the context. For example, if I say all matter is physical, I am talking about everything involving matter. If I say all matter in the apple is physical, then I am only applying all to the matter in the apple because the rest of the sentence says so.

Nothing in the Timothy verse modifies "pas" to mean a limited number of people. 1 Tim 4:10 MUST agree with the fact that Jesus is the savior of the world right? Otherwise it would contradict that...then we have a word that speaks against itself. Pas should ALWAYS be translated as "all" and if the surrounding context limits that "all" then so be it. But INTERPRETATION without confirmation in the context SHOULD NOT determine the translation, otherwise the translation becomes biased and not honest.

Concerning the translation of 1 Tim 4:10 inso far as who Jesus says he is the savior of, what does "all" apply to: "the world." Jesus is the savior of the world, right? So the 1 Tim 4:10 verse CONFIRMS that statement by saying (according to its most literal, bias free translation): Jesus is the savior of all men, especially those who believe.

Because people do not agree with that, though it confirms Christ's "world" saving status, does not mean that THEY should be the limiter of "pas/all" just to reinforce their false doctrine.

Quote from: Seth on September 11, 2009, 11:47:32 PM
Here is what I have learned about the word "pas" meaning all:

It always means EACH and EVERY unless modified by context
.......
Nothing in the Timothy verse modifies "pas" to mean a limited number of people. 1 Tim 4:10 MUST agree with the fact that Jesus is the savior of the world right? Otherwise it would contradict that...then we have a word that speaks against itself. Pas should ALWAYS be translated as "all" and if the surrounding context limits that "all" then so be it. But INTERPRETATION without confirmation in the context SHOULD NOT determine the translation, otherwise the translation becomes biased and not honest.
.......
Because people do not agree with that, though it confirms Christ's "world" saving status, does not mean that THEY should be the limiter of "pas/all" just to reinforce their false doctrine.

And again the keyword is context.
ET's extend that context to 100 pages away.
And that was just the point I was trying to make. The gospel wasn't only taugh in a university.
It was thaught to common people that can't see the context of 100 pages away.
Likely they only remembered the outline of the teaching.
For me that already proves all=all
Jesus was no lawyer. He would have said: "It really hurts my soul but I have to say most of you will be damned eternally"
And not saying "all" and assuming those people catch the context. That would be the way satan preaches. Nice words with a catch 55 that dooms all.

Amen Mr. WW  :thumbsup:

Thank you for your thoughts on this.  I'll continue to ponder these things. 

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 11, 2009, 10:36:12 PM
Maybe it really is that simple? Believe like a child.

Exactly.

willieH: Hi Cat!  :cloud9:

Great to see you posting here!

Quote from: Cat on September 11, 2009, 10:29:28 PM
If only it was that simple.  Thanks for your thoughts on this.

It IS that "simple" Cat... What confuses that simplicity is the BABYLONIAN system of Religion called Christianity... which in its many varieties DIFFERS with one another, to the depth of CONFUSION that some even claim that other portions of it (christianity) are UNSAVED... :pitiful:

Now THAT is what takes something "SIMPLE" (as GOD loves each of us :boogie:) and turns it into COMPLEX CONFUSION... (that He really doesn't -- :rolleye:)

Psalm 19:7  ...the TESTIMONY of the LORD [YHVH] is sure, making WISE, the ...SIMPLE...

If this verse [1 Tim 4:10] were standing BY ITSELF... then UR certainly could be questioned... but when combined with the statement that GOD  -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- "...is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish"...

How can we as finite humans think that anything WE DO, can thwart the WILL of GOD?

And even consider that JESUS was sent to SAVE the WORLD that God SO LOVED... and failed? -- John 3:16

And that He was SENT ...NOT... to condemn, but shall condemn MOST? -- John 3:17

And that He being IMPARTIAL -- Acts 10:34 -- 2 Sam 14:14 - Job 34:19 - Rom 2:11 and others -- as well as being the AUTHOR and FINISHER of FAITH which SAVES -- Heb 12:2 -- thereby broke the Scripture by showing PARTIALITY to some (*the "saved") and not to others (*the rest)?

And that the statement that JESUS "taketh AWAY the SIN of the WORLD" is therefore a FALSE STATEMENT? -- John 1:29

And that ALL THINGS were RECONCILED by His Cross is also not true? -- Col 1:20

Yeah... it is so SIMPLE that most "cannot see the FOREST for the TREES"...

Peace sis -- :Peace:

Even the righteousness of God which is by Faith Of Jesus Christ unto All AND upon All them that believe: For there is No Difference, for All have sinned, AND come short of the Glory of God; being justified freely by His Grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus ... seeing it is One God, which shall justify the circumcision by Faith [Of Christ], AND uncircumcision through Faith [Of Christ]. (Romans 3:22-24, 30)

He is the Rock, His work is perfect; for All His ways are judgment; a God of Truth, without iniquity, just AND right is He ( Deuteronomy 32:4)

"Only the hardened nails of humanity would think otherwise."

peacemaker

Hi WillieH and Peacemaker.  Thanks for your replies.  I have much food for thought.  :icon_flower:

He can't be the Savior of ONLY all types (and only save SOME of them) AND ALSO be the Savior of the non-believer AND believer alike. That doesn't even make sense. It's a logical contradiction. Also, if he doesn't save also the non-believers, he ISN'T their Savior. A fire fighter who fails to save the one he went into rescue certainly didn't save that person from the fire.

By making the distinction that he is the Savior of non-believers AND believers, Paul is including ALL possible people, no matter what their type. Even if it meant all types, the verses just after would prove it doesn't matter what type, because God is the Savior of BOTH the non-believer AND the believer.

Tim,

There whole discussions about proving  'especially' has whole different meaning.
And ofcourse Jesus came to offer the gift of salvation. But almost all rejected the gift.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 14, 2009, 09:40:09 AM
Tim,

There whole discussions about proving  'especially' has whole different meaning.
And ofcourse Jesus came to offer the gift of salvation. But almost all rejected the gift.

Oh... well, that's just them messing with plain English. They certainly know what "especially" means.

Quote from: WhiteWings
And even if they preached 500 pages of NT do you think any of those uneducated people would even think all was not all because is was indirectly implied 3 hours ago by some vague parable?
It takes scholars (university) years (?) to write a commentary and unravel all the verses. And then some farmer that likely can't even count his sheep is to understand all is not all?

Wouldn't that be like preaching half truth? Or maybe a waste of time because the audience can't understand it?

thats a really good observation...never even thought about that.

willieH: Hi me bratha Seth...  :afFro:

I can't believe I overlooked this post!  This is the BEST definitive observation of "PAS" that I have read!  :first:

Quote from: Seth on September 11, 2009, 11:47:32 PM
Cat,
Here is what I have learned about the word "pas" meaning all:

It always means EACH and EVERY unless modified by context, in which case it still means each and every, only pertaining to the context. For example, if I say all matter is physical, I am talking about everything involving matter. If I say all matter in the apple is physical, then I am only applying all to the matter in the apple because the rest of the sentence says so.

Nothing in the Timothy verse modifies "pas" to mean a limited number of people. 1 Tim 4:10 MUST agree with the fact that Jesus is the savior of the world right? Otherwise it would contradict that...then we have a word that speaks against itself. Pas should ALWAYS be translated as "all" and if the surrounding context limits that "all" then so be it. But INTERPRETATION without confirmation in the context SHOULD NOT determine the translation, otherwise the translation becomes biased and not honest.

Concerning the translation of 1 Tim 4:10 inso far as who Jesus says he is the savior of, what does "all" apply to: "the world." Jesus is the savior of the world, right? So the 1 Tim 4:10 verse CONFIRMS that statement by saying (according to its most literal, bias free translation): Jesus is the savior of all men, especially those who believe.

Because people do not agree with that, though it confirms Christ's "world" saving status, does not mean that THEY should be the limiter of "pas/all" just to reinforce their false doctrine.

:thanks:  For posting it bro!  WELL SAID!

Though it doesn't surprise me at all coming from you, bro!  Consider my deepest respect for this writing, brother!  :friendstu:

Only ONE of these got it wrong. (Tut-tut).



1 Timothy 4:10 >>

 
New International Version (©1984)
(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

New Living Translation (©2007)
This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE!!!
International Standard Version (©2008)
To this end we work hard and struggle, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, that is, of those who believe.
LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE!!!

So er...what are you saying International standard version?  That God is the saviour of ALL people...that is THOSE who believe?  So He's not the saviour of ALL people then like you said, JUST believers?  Why not just say that then?  Why not just go the full hog and TOTALLY MISTRANSLATE it and say
"Saviour of believers only"....Rather than say something that makes NO SENSE?[/b]
...Or are NON-believers not people lol?!
...Pathetic.
LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE!!!

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Certainly, we work hard and struggle to live a godly life, because we place our confidence in the living God. He is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

King James Bible
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

American King James Version
For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe.

American Standard Version
For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.

Bible in Basic English
And this is the purpose of all our work and our fighting, because our hope is in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, and specially of those who have faith.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For therefore we labor and are reviled, because we hope in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of the faithful.

Darby Bible Translation
for, for this we labour and suffer reproach, because we hope in a living God, who is preserver of all men, specially of those that believe.

English Revised Version
For to this end we labour and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.

Webster's Bible Translation
For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.

Weymouth New Testament
and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers.

World English Bible
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we have set our trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Young's Literal Translation
for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing.

                             Jesus' Faith or Yours -- Who's  ?
K.J.V.                Rom. 3:22
   Even the righteousness of God which is by Faith of Jesus Christ...

N.I.V.
   The righteousness from God comes through Faith in Jesus Christ...
This is just a plain Lie

C.L.N.T.V.
   A righteousness of God through Jesus Christs' Faith.(E ph. 2.8  Too –through Jesus' Faith)

Gal. 2:16

K.J.V.
   Knowing the a man is not justified by the works of the law, But by the faith of Jesus Christ, even when we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we be justified by the faith of Christ.

N.I.V.
   Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but( by faith in) Jesus Christ.  So we too have put our faith in Jesus Christ that we may be justified by faith in Jesus Christ.  This is a plain Lie

C.L.N.T.V.
   Having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ....(His Faith Not Ours...)

Phil. 3.9
K.J.V.
   And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the Law, But that which is through the faith of Christ, ( Who's ?) the righteousness which is of God by faith. ( JC'S Faith    NOT ours).

N.I.V.
   And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ the righteousness that  comes from God and is by faith...This is another Plain Lie

C.L.N.T.V.
   And be found in Him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is from God for faith,( J.C.'s Faith)
Gal. 2:20
K.J.V.
   I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God
N.I.V.
   I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the son of God=Plain Lie
C.L.N.T.V.
   With Christ have I been crucified, yet I am living; no longer I, but living in me is Christ. Now that which I am now living in flesh, I am living in faith that is of the son of God.


People if you cant see the Evil in this book, God Help you.

Lee Damboise II

Lol Lee, you love throwing that in every now and then!

I like the ISV version of this...


International Standard Version
yet we know that a person is not justified by doing what the law requires, but rather by the faithfulness of Jesus  the Messiah. We, too, have believed in the Messiah Jesus so that we might be justified by the faithfulness  of the Messiah and not by doing what the law requires, for no human being will be justified by doing what the law requires

Oh Ya, I do like to throw it in, because I have seen the people of "Love" that use this evil book to spread "their" good news. 

Bottom line it...  "IF" you can not raise the dead by your words that come out of you then you are a messenger of "death". YOUR words bring death...


My words bring life to the hearer... This is good news. Good Message, a messenger of life,light, love.

Lee

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 01, 2010, 03:56:08 AM
Oh Ya, I do like to throw it in, because I have seen the people of "Love" that use this evil book to spread "their" good news. 

Bottom line it...  "IF" you can not raise the dead by your words that come out of you then you are a messenger of "death". YOUR words bring death...


My words bring life to the hearer... This is good news. Good Message, a messenger of life,light, love.

Lee

Got your back 100% Lee, great work....If its not truth, its KRAP.  (Basically), and of NO USE to the hearer.