found this on an exposing Satanism website. I thought the argument was pretty convincing. Can anyone refute it?



http://www.bonnieq.com/showthread.php?t=409

QuoteThe main scripture, upon which they base their false doctrine, is the one found in Colossians 1:20: "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven." They declare that all things in this verse includes those that have gone to hell and they will all be reconciled back to God; however, if we look at the verses in the proper context, we can see that the "all things" mentioned here are "all things in Christ." Obviously, those outside of Christ, who have rejected Him, are not included in the word "all" in this verse. Notice that the verse says, "things in earth and in heaven," not things in hell, that God will reconcile. The truth is that He will reconcile "all things in Christ" by restoring this earth and bringing things into order during the millennium, after the wicked are removed.

The main question is how many will not be in Christ. (eventually)
What exactly is earth? The none existing hell is supposed to be in the molten core of the earth. But now suddenly it's not "in earth"
Beside of that there is a strong link between death/sin/earth.
I wonder if "earth" in that verse is about the planet or sin.

QuoteFor it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Colossians 1:19-20  or it pleased the Father .... to reconcile all things unto himself (=God); by him,
=> reconcile = bring back a former state of harmony => 95% of humanity in hell isn't a (former) state of harmony

QuoteNotice that these verses are referring to Christ and His shed blood on the cross. It is His sacrifice that opens the way for anyone to be reconciled to God. Paul is speaking here to the church and tells them that they were once alienated from God, but through the shedding of the blood of Christ, now all can be reconciled. God offers salvation to all.

What about the people that lived before Christ?

QuoteJohn 12:47: And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

This is another case where they take scripture out of context to make it line up with their own idea of God. Notice the surrounding scriptures below, especially verse 46 that says, "I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness." It is belief and faith in God that saves us from the judgment of darkness and hell. Then, in the remainder of verses, we are told that indeed we shall be judged by the Word of God and the commandments that Jesus spoke. In the New Testament Jesus had a lot to say about hell being everlasting.

I guess  those in hell are the ungodly ones.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....

QuoteThe teachers of The Ultimate Reconciliation of All (TURA) not only declare that hell will not be eternal, but they also take other words, such as "everlasting", "forever" and "ever," and change their meaning to be "a period of time" in every place it refers to hell. Their justification for this is that they accuse the authors of the King James Version of the Bible of mistranslating these words. It is amazing how many of the false doctrines of today can only exist when certain words of the Bible must be changed to support their own private interpretation of those doctrines.

Sure that's why she needed the "the fuller meaning" of a word in Greek to make her point a few paragraphs back...

QuoteTo embrace this heretical doctrine, one must do the following:

1.) Attack the most revered translation of the Bible, the King James Version, stating it is full of mistranslations regarding the following words: "hell," for ever," and "eternal." These words must be discounted to prove this doctrine. While it is true that the English word "hell" in the 1611 KJV Bible had a different meaning than what our English word means today since it was less specific making it more difficult to determine whether "hell" is coming from the Greek word, "Hades" (the unseen world of the dead) or the Greek word, "Gehenna" (the place of everlasting fire) in the New Testament. In spite of this difficulty, the Bible is clear in Revelation 20:11-15 that the temporary hell "Hades" will give up its dead to the everlasting hell "Gehenna." Later in this article I will deal with this in detail.

2.) Disregard the words of Jesus Himself, as He speaks numerous times about an eternal hell in the New Testament.

That second point is actually the same as point one. Mistranslations.

Quote3.) Throw out all the rules of Bible interpretation based on the "law of first mention." All cults claim to have new revelation outside of the Bible's clear teachings and fail to build on the foundational truths of the Bible. They also take verses out of context and discount verses that have previously mentioned a truth prior to the verse in question (the law of first mention). In this case, if the Bible has already clearly defined an eternal hell in one place, it may not mention it in later places. Proper Biblical interpretation would refer to where this subject was first mentioned, in order to build upon that previously mentioned truth. This applies to all subjects in the Bible.

Hell was first mentioned in OT. Grave.

Quote4.) Refuse the counsel and instruction of the five-fold ministry. They do not submit to true church leadership, as those in TURA emphatically claim their revelation is greater than the foundational doctrines established throughout church history. They are caught up in a "wind of doctrine" because they have not yielded to proper discipleship.

What of the many churches should I attend to? Perhaps a mosque. The studied a lot too. Just like Pharisees and Sadducees.

Quote5.) Disobey the command of the Lord to build on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Ephesians 2:19-20: Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone. Because of deception, those who embrace TURA have failed to build on the doctrine of Christ, which He establishes through His apostles and prophets. Hebrews 13:17 says, Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

So we should submit to a satanist ruler? Plus the the whole part about building on Christ is nonsense. TURA is not denying that. TURA is claiming it means something different.

QuoteThe root of divisions in the church is heresy. If each person was truly walking in the spirit with the mind of Christ, totally committed to Him, we would hear the same thing and speak the same thing.

Good point. Church leaders do not speak the same words. Again I want to add that satanism, islam, etc also have a church and leaders.

QuoteSome revelation is given only to true apostles and those in the five-fold ministry who have been given the wisdom and office to administer it. Those who are not in the five-fold ministry can be deceived away from the simplicity that is in Christ when they assume a place that they have not been called to in regard to teaching. They become lifted in pride thinking they know more than their teachers and can be deceived by the devil.

Lemme guess you have a five-fold ministry? Or has satan given you a ten-fold delusion?

QuoteNotice the scripture below tells us that we are to be built up by the foundational teachings by God's apostles and prophets, not just by anyone who thinks they are to teach.

Her favorite tactic. The question not if we should or should not build on God's teachings. The question is what did God actually teach.

QuoteTURA has the earmark of a cultic religion, in regard to their views about hell. If cults do not use the fear of going to hell to bring people into bondage, then they try to discount hell altogether. One of Satan's favorite lies is to try to convince people that they suffer their hell on earth and that there is none hereafter.

One od satans lies is that Father is not in control and His Son is a shepherd that loses 95% of His flock.
But satan has more lies. Read on.

QuoteHELL WAS MADE FOR SATAN

This place was prepared for the devil and his fallen angels. It was never meant for man to go there. Man is going there by choosing to follow Satan and his evil ways. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41).

That paragraph is stating Father wasn't aware of the future. He created hell for satan but because He lacks intelligence H ewas caught by suprise and had to switch to plan B "Hell now is also for 95% of creation even if I never planned it that way."

QuoteAs mentioned previously, most of the church fathers and Bible theologians agree that the portion of hell that was emptied was known as "Paradise." This region in hell was where the righteous dead went, prior to Calvary.

Wages of sin is death not paradise. All have sinned. So all are dead. So paradise always was empty. The only way to overcome death is by Jesus. Totally unknow by people that lived 2000 years ago.

QuoteAnd death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10-15).

Hell and hellfire are realities according to God's Word, and any that speak otherwise are in error and are promoting false doctrine.

TURA doesn't say there is not death, hell, fire, judgement, etc. TURA says those things have different meanings.
So again she is debating about things that are not the point.

And posted under "occult", no less... and not a single reply in over a year?

I see... despite how "large" the forum looks (with so many different boards) it's actually got a very small membership count.

I saw a post from their "newest" member made in 2008. I wonder if they allow anyone to join?

I like that it uses vBulletin, so maybe I will browse around. Not that I need to join another forum. :grin:

QuoteThe main scripture, upon which they base their false doctrine

A person can stop reading here,  no where in any Christian Universalism literature is there a statement saying this passage is the main one it is based upon.

This is what is called a strawman.

Quote from: Chris on January 22, 2010, 09:19:17 PMI like that it uses vBulletin, so maybe I will browse around. Not that I need to join another forum. :grin:

Chris I don't think you meet all the 666 required denominational points for membership  :winkgrin:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 22, 2010, 09:28:17 PM

QuoteThe main scripture, upon which they base their false doctrine

A person can stop reading here,  no where in any Christian Universalism literature is there a statement saying this passage is the main one it is based upon.

This is what is called a strawman.

The whole article is a convention of strawmen.
He reasoning is aways in 3 parts
1- Quote some scripture. -> true
2- State her interpretation. -> strawman
3- Everyone that doesn't agree with the scripture is a heretic. -> true

Her writing style is that everyone that disagrees with her interpretation rejects scripture. Who rejects scripture is a heretic. I think not even one Christian denomination rejects scripture. The debate is about interpretation and manmade translation/copying errors.

this are the standart arguments against UR, I don't consider these arguments pretty convincing, I think they have all been answered somewhere here in the forum.

there is a verse,

they claim it means A
we believe it means B
another one might claim it means C, so what

not everybody will agree with us, this is something we have to accept

To me, that's a very poor paper and a very weak argument. I've been more worried over the writings of theistic satanist than what this article says.

Quote from: WhiteWings on January 22, 2010, 09:42:26 PM

Quote from: Chris on January 22, 2010, 09:19:17 PMI like that it uses vBulletin, so maybe I will browse around. Not that I need to join another forum. :grin:

Chris I don't think you meet all the 666 required denominational points for membership  :winkgrin:

:grin:

Quote from: Lupac on January 23, 2010, 12:08:08 AM
To me, that's a very poor paper and a very weak argument.

But is a funny paper :winkgrin:

QuoteI will not try to defend the accuracy of the KJV Bible here, other than to say it has been proven to be reliable and is inspired by the Holy Spirit. No other book has been so scrutinized, sifted for error, criticized, and attacked over the centuries on such a massive scale as the Bible, and yet it stands.

Where is the proof it's inspired? And if it's inspired by who? Satan or HS?
The KJV fell long ago. For real sifting look on atheist sites. The sifting by believers is often not sifting but explaining away what isn't understand (due to errors).
People who sifted and found an error were often killed. KJV stands by force and brainwashing. Not by accuracy.

She's right about one point. "Many are/will be deceived" But unfortunate her conclusion is wrong. The whole point about satan's deception is that it's of superior quality. Deceived people won't know they are deceived. I've seen "White Power and inspired "Black Power" articles/writings. Both are of course inspired. The people preaching it likely even believe what they preach. The problem is that both inspired writings teach the opposite.

The Bible teaches man's wisdom is foolishness in the eyes of God.
It also teaches man is infected by the sin of arrogance.
Combine that with above. Everyone agrees that, say, 90% of all people will be deceived and follow the wrong religion. The arrogance is that all those people think they are smart and can see trough the deception and are in the 10% group.

It reminds me of an old joke about a ghost-driver/blind sider.
Voice on the radio: Warning! Ghost-driver on Interstate .... Drive on the right lane and try to warn the driver with light signals.
Ghost-driver: One??? I've seen hundreds of ghost-drivers.

Is this going to turn into a discussion (or argument) about the KJV?  :mshock:

I'll bear witness to it's inspiration OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, as it's what I use. It's BEAUTIFULLY written and I had not one bit of trouble coming to the truth using it. Nor have I had any trouble adding to my understanding as I have used it to study over the years.

I find very few problems with it and if we let the scriptures interpret themselves then there is no problem understanding what "eternal life" and "everlasting punishment" (etc) ARE because they are defined right there within the text.

The same is true of "hell" and some of the other "translation issues".

Of course it can be beneficial to study the Greek and Hebrew and to be able to know what the words mean and how else they are used and where else they appear (which is not always so evident, since they are not always translated the same way with consistency) but the translation itself is very consistent overall and lends itself BEAUTIFULLY to revealing the underlying patterns which bear witness of Christ time and time again.

Overall, I find it a very good translation and one that many who believe in UR still use, as far as I know. So why insult it?

It is not "fallen". It is ALIVE AND WELL and testifies VERY CLEARLY of Jesus Christ. :thumbsup:

Should we image that the Holy Spirit cannot OPEN UP the KJV to those who read it? Wow! Where were we before all these other translations came about? Do these "better translations" make it that much easier to understand spiritual truths?  :dontknow:

Bottom line is that by insulting the KJV, you insult those of us who use it (AND LIKE IT  :happygrin:). :sigh:

That's my :2c: and all I am going to say about it. I'd simply suggest that if anyone thinks less of it and those who use it that maybe they should keep that between themselves and the Lord. I'd suggest they take it up WITH HIM, not US.  :thumbsup:

I apologize to the OP for continuing to take this thread off-topic, but this isn't the first time this has been said in this forum. Maybe that's one of the reasons I drop in from time to time but have never felt welcome here and have never been able to make this place my internet forum home. :msealed:

  :soap:  Have a great day! I'm off my soap box now and I won't be back to defend it. That's all I have to say on the subject and if a MOD wants to delete it because my comments are inappropriate with regard to the TM position on the KJV (?), then by all means please delete it.  :mblush: 

The KJV is fine.  The problem is relying on any one translation to hinge the absolute idea of truth on.   There is not one that will stand up to that.   However they all are fine for reference, study and seeking.

Whether anyone likes it or not even the CLV can support the idea of eternal torment if one wishes to read it in that light.

 :cloud9: I don't think the KJV has in any way hindered me from coming to the knowledge of the Truth, either, and it's what I've always used. Bottom line is, it's the Spirit that is the Teacher. Blessings....

I love my KJV , but I don't find it as great as you do because I know History, and where it's roots are from...  I trust more the original version before it got translated from the Greed and Hebrew, (and Latin) starting with

Willian Tyndale
Miles Coverdale
to the Matthew's Bible
to the Great Bible
Rheims/Douai Transleation 1582
to the King James Version in 1611
to the Revised Version in 1885
and on and on....

Although the only people that I cut down and try my hardest to sway are the users of the NIV Lie version..... Lee Damboise II

Because "I" know that bible's History more and Authority and who invented it's words.

 :cloud9: In the beginning of our walk, the Word reveals the Spirit, but in the latter stage, the Spirit reveals the Word (as a witness to the Spirit). One is the plumb line, one is the level; it takes both to build the habitation. Blessings.....

I think there is some misunderstanding.

Quote from: Chris on January 23, 2010, 07:22:20 PM
I had not one bit of trouble coming to the truth using it. Nor have I had any trouble adding to my understanding as I have used it to study over the years.
........
Should we image that the Holy Spirit cannot OPEN UP the KJV to those who read it?

If the HS is adding then it's the quality of the HS not of the KJV.

QuoteOverall, I find it a very good translation and one that many who believe in UR still use, as far as I know. So why insult it?

It is not "fallen". It is ALIVE AND WELL and testifies VERY CLEARLY of Jesus Christ. :thumbsup:

The writer of the article claims the KJV has been verified for error for centuries and none were found. "It still stands" Then I wonder why complete books were removed. And the first edition was full of nasty errors like "thou shall commit adultary"
(the word not was omitted) As another therad on this site shows there are (still) errors in it like in verse a there are 100 horses and in verse b there are 500.
So even the KJV was inspired then those who printed the books messed things up.
So part of perfection is lost. I could accept that for spelling errors and and occasionally ommitting a word. But not for whole books that were removed later

QuoteWow! Where were we before all these other translations came about? Do these "better translations" make it that much easier to understand spiritual truths?  :dontknow:

I think, for me, a more accurate translation is at least a faster way to the truth. Other translations are also flawed. I think the only versions without errors are the originals.

QuoteBottom line is that by insulting the KJV, you insult those of us who use it (AND LIKE IT  :happygrin:). :sigh:

For me the Bible is just paper and ink. Books can't be insulted. What would be insluting is saying the whole message is <enter a bad word here>
I know that other people on this forum use and still use the KJV. And yes they learned about UR. The question is did they find UR because it's written in the KJV? Or did they find it when they learned about the meaning of the original words? Some are smarter than others. Many will read forever and assume it means forever. Surely some great minds can look beyond that.
I can say much more on that but lets just end this message with asking you a question:

If the orginals use a certain word inpired by the HS should a translator use a as good as possible translation (forever/age) or should they use a 'this sounds good to me' translation?
In other words: Should men try to improve the words of the HS?

another thing to remember.

from Lee Damboise II

Real meanings of words make a whole lot of differance. so Learn Please

Apollumi

There are two elements one needs to determine the meaning of a word which has been important over a long period of time: 1. The original meaning of the root word from which it is derived, so far as we are able to determine. 2. The history of the word as it passes from one generation to another. Other languages, social pressures, or one important person's or an institution's variant use of the word whose definition sticks with that word.

When we go back to the earliest uses of the word "apollumi," "apolleia" and their cognates, we find the words very indistinguishable from each other. We find the word in Homer where the "slayers and the slain" were "perishing from the world," but they reappear in Hades as persons capable of sorrow, joy and the ability to think. (Iliad 24:725) "We were 'undone' by their wisdom," says Odysseus. (Od. 10:27) According to Professor Plumtree, he knows of no passages in the earliest uses of these words which would mean destruction of conscious existence. (The Spirits in Prison, E.H. Plumtree) Searching the Greek Old Testament called the Septuagint, we find exactly the same usage of these words that we find in the New Testament. Below are examples of how these words were used in the Biblical sense.

Those who teach "eternal death" or "annihilation" believe the Greek words translated "destroy," "perish," "loss," mean cessation or end of life with no hope of recovery at a later time. The original words used in the Greek New Testament are: the verb "apollumi," and the noun, "apolleia." The verb "apollumi" is translated as follows in the King James Version: perish (33 times), destroy (46 times), lose (42 times), be lost (5 times), lost (4 times), bemarred (1 time), die (1 time), for a total of 92 times. The noun "apolleia" is translated as follows in the King James Version: perdition (8 times), destruction (5 times), waste (2 times), damnable (1 time), damnation (1 time), to die (1 time), perish (1 time), pernicious way (1 time), for a total of 40 times.

It is important that Christians understand the meaning of these two Greek words. An improper understanding of these words will result in an inaccurate faith in the destiny of the unbelievers and an inaccurate understanding of God's plan and love. To apply these words to the final destiny of the unbelievers will result in the denial of many scriptures that do refer to the ultimate plan of God's love. I recommend that you check the following scriptures with your concordances. It is not practical for me to quote over 110 verses. Therefore, I will quote only those passages used by those who are teaching that these words mean "destruction with no future resurrection to immortality."

First of all, let me state that I believe the original Hebrew and Greek scriptures were inspired by God. I believe the Creator allowed imperfect man to add his imperfections into Bible translations. When we look at the apostles and prophets, we quickly notice they were far from perfect, and yet were still mightily used. We see Peter, years after he received the Holy Spirit, play the hypocrite when being around gentiles. Paul had to rebuke him to his face. We read Paul saying, "I, not the Lord, say . . ." We find this in the scriptures in 1 Corinthians 7:12. I believe the Creator left us with imperfect English translations that we might rely on the Holy Spirit first. When one puts the scriptures above being lead by the Spirit, religious rigor mortus quickly sets in. The letter of the law produces death apart from the Holy Spirit quickening to us. This is true whether it is the Old Testament or New Testament. If one's witness in this world does not go past the Written Word, it will only be a witness to religious death . . . not life.

Quote from: Cardinal on January 23, 2010, 08:18:35 PM
:cloud9: I don't think the KJV has in any way hindered me from coming to the knowledge of the Truth, either, and it's what I've always used. Bottom line is, it's the Spirit that is the Teacher. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on January 23, 2010, 09:27:29 PM
:cloud9: In the beginning of our walk, the Word reveals the Spirit, but in the latter stage, the Spirit reveals the Word (as a witness to the Spirit). One is the plumb line, one is the level; it takes both to build the habitation. Blessings.....

Unless I completely misunderstand what you mean by 'teach' and 'reveal' I think has nothing to do with the KJV or any other translation.

I'm told quite frequently the HS can bring the message in a zillion different ways. One of them most likely is the Bible. Perhaps/likely the most important one. Right?
But when the HS actively starts teaching how do/did you learn? Was it still from the Bible?
Or was it from the HS?
I look at it like school. From the start of our student career at the age of around five to graduation from university we studied a room full of books. All the info to graduate is in those books but how many 5 year olds will eventually graduate if they had no teachers?
Teachers that also occasionally have to point out printing errors.
If the person that graduated from university looks back can s/he really say "I studied the books and made it." Or would it be more accurate to add "With great help from my teachers."
Did all the wisdom really come from the books?

 :cloud9: When He first started teaching me, it came both from the Book and from the natural creation; both are the Word and the Spirit is capable of teaching through both, as both bear witness to His Spirit. Blessings....

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 23, 2010, 09:56:52 PM
I believe the Creator allowed imperfect man to add his imperfections into Bible translations.

Perhaps, but these Dogmatists are those who had lost the knowledge of God with regards to His righteousness, love and peace. When the Greek thoughts of Christ gave way to the Latin, a night came upon the world that has been extended to this present day; half truths, distorted views, and false assumptions within the teachings or "doctrines of men" that have perverted the true "Gospel of Christ" for centuries. However, the resurrection of Universalism after an eclipse of a millennium of years is as remarkable – as was its disappearance.

One of the darkest enigmas of human justice employed the word timoria (torment), instead of kolasis (correction) for that of punishment, which has grieved the Spirit and human heart.

"Chains of darkness, until the day of our judgment in righteousness."

Love and Peace to All.

peacemaker

Quote from: Andromeda_Organa on January 22, 2010, 06:17:23 PM
found this on an exposing Satanism website. I thought the argument was pretty convincing. Can anyone refute it?

http://www.bonnieq.com/showthread.php?t=409

Sis, are you inadvertently looking for stuff that will keep you up at night?  :laughing7:  :HeartThrob:

I also find this a very convincing post.  But, I have not read through all the threads here. 

Quote from: peacemaker on January 24, 2010, 08:16:18 PM
However, the resurrection of Universalism after an eclipse of a millennium of years is as remarkable – as was its disappearance.

I think there are two disappearances. From Jesus onward there was large scale Universalism. But that got slowly destroyed when Constantine started to paganise it withhis Roman church. Then is seemed to have resurfaced quite strongly in the 1800's. And before the turn of the century died again. I wonder if UR will also be short lived this time.

The history of its appearances and disappearances is interesting.  But I think one thing worth considering is, if something's the truth, it's always "there".  (Think about the Dark Ages, and all that was hidden and "forgotten".)   It may not be seen, be totally disregarded, or even persecuted - but it's always present.  Right where it was when God last revealed it, and waiting for Him to reveal it again.   :bigGrin:

The truth is the truth, and it will stand.  Heaven and earth will pass away, but my Words will not pass away.  Mark 13:31  God has a PLAN.