One Step Short of Glory

[jabcat]

I posted a link to this in the Eternal Death thread, but it's so good it deserves to be highlighted.  It's Gary's article, Eternal Death - One Step Out of Hell, One Step Short of Glory.  Following is an excerpt, with a link to the full article at the bottom.  ANYONE exploring/searching for understanding on this topic, I recommend this as an important read.   :thumbsup:  He makes some interesting comments that touch on various doctrines.  I'm looking through it myself.

"We hear the words "eternal death" in Christian creeds. Although many Christians use these words, the words "eternal death" are not in the Scriptures. Again, I repeat, the words "eternal death" are not in our Bibles. Therefore, to study the teaching of "annihilation" or "eternal death" we will have to look for other words to study, "eternal death" is nowhere to be found.

The opposite of life is death and the opposite of death is life. According to the Scriptures, there cannot be an eternal death. The Scriptures declare an "end" to death. "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Cor. 15:26, KJV) Let us see that "death" cannot be "eternal."

Resurrection Versus "Being Made Alive"

The Greek word translated destroy in the above Scripture (1Cor. 15:26,27) is not "apollumi." The word used here is "katageo" and means to nullify, discard, exempt, abolish, to make unproductive. This "last enemy" of Christ will ultimately be "nullified, discarded, abolished, or destroyed." Therefore, this clearly teaches that death is the last enemy and that in the future "death" will be destroyed. Hence, there can be no "eternal death." To teach an "eternal death" is to contradict the Scriptures.

Those who teach "eternal death" or "annihilation" believe the Greek words translated "destroy," "perish," "loss," mean cessation or end of life with no hope of recovery at a later time. The original words used in the Greek New Testament are: the verb "apollumi," and the noun, "apolleia".  In conclusion, I must repeat that these words "apollumi" and "apolleia" like so many other words such as "krima," "krino," and "krisis" are relative terms. The first two words usually carry the sense of loss by someone. God is the great loser in many of their occurrences. The coin was lost by the woman, the sheep was lost by the shepherd, the prodigal son was lost by the father, Israel was lost by Yahweh, men are lost by God. Who was it that created them? Are they not His work? Will He not be the loser if they are not saved?

Every Christian was once lost, destroyed. Not only was this no hindrance to their deliverance, but it was absolutely essential to it. God had lost them. Through Christ, God has found and saved them. The same is true of those who are not now saved. Please remember there is not one except Jesus Christ, who was not lost and had need of a Savior. Some God will call tomorrow, many He will not call until another age. God has definitely declared that He is the Savior of all mankind. (Study 1 Tim. 2:3-6, 4:9-11) Since God has lost them and He has said He will save them, they will be saved in their own order. (Study 1 Cor. 15:22-28.)" - Gary Amirault

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath-new.html

[peacemaker]

No one puts new wine into old wine skins, or else the new wine will burst the wineskins and be spilled, and the wineskins will be ruined.
But new wine must be put into new wine skins, and both are preserved.

No one, having drunk old wine, immediately desires new; for he says, 'the old is better.'  (Luke 5:37-39)

"All things become new, as old things perish."

peacemaker

[shawn]

It would be hard to sway me with semantics.  This is word play in my opinion.  Death can be conquered in the sense that people do not die any longer.  Death had it's season but was conquered and will take no more life.  If a murderer kills but is caught and put to death he has been conquered and will kill no longer. 

[jabcat]

But he's still dead.  So in that scenario, what prevails, death or life?

Jesus conquered death.

[WhiteWings]

It would be hard to sway me with semantics.  This is word play in my opinion.  Death can be conquered in the sense that people do not die any longer.  Death had it's season but was conquered and will take no more life.  If a murderer kills but is caught and put to death he has been conquered and will kill no longer.  

That's my view to Shawn. But the view has a weakness.

Say the USA(God) is at war. The enemy is extremely powerful (death). The USA is literally losing ground on daily basis.
Then the US Army gets a new general called Jesus. He stops the enemy. He doesn't reclaim what's lost but due to his strategy the enemy has zero chance of future victories. The USA under general Jesus has only 2 states. The rest is enemy territory.
Did the enemy lost his sting? Is the enemy defeated. Or is the enemy still victorious because it has dominion over 50 former USA states?
General Jesus only stopped expansion; but reclaimed nothing....
:dontknow:

[shawn]

But he's still dead.  So in that scenario, what prevails, death or life?

Jesus conquered death.

I believe the death of a serial killer promotes life because it saves his future victims.  By "conquering" a killer you have prevented him from killing again.  But, he has still killed.  When Jesus conquers death he also prevents death from taking anymore life.  But, death has still killed.
While I admit it surely could mean exactly what you think it means I would in no way say it supports UR because we in fact do not know which meaning was inferred.

[WhiteWings]

^NAS1Co 15:55 "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"
^NASRev 20:14  And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

I've been thinking; it's not correct to say the death are in Hades because they are in the kingdom of Hades the Greek god of the underworld/death.

I think those verses are mocking the Greek concept of the underworld.

The question is: What in cast in LoF? Hades the god or Hades the kingdom?
It makes quite a difference imo.
If it speaks about the kingdom is solves nothing for this thread/discussion.
But what if it's Hades the god that's cast into LoF.
Back to my war example from my previous post.
Jesus has a kingdom. Hades has a kingdom. Both kingdoms have people in it.
Just like in regular war when on king conquers the other king both kingdoms, and everything in it, belong to the winner.
So in that view Jesus also owns all in Hades' kingdom. That would mean the dead are no longer dead.
:dontknow:

[jabcat]

We can think about and talk all we want about death reigning...but, IMO, all death and destruction verses must reconcile with (and this is just a few) the following verses;


"God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him may be saved."
(John 3:17)

"Who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."   (John 6:33)

"The Son of man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them."  (Luke 9:56)

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to myself."  (John 12:32)

"As you have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as you have given Him."  (John 17:2)

"The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand."  (John 3:35)

The death verses, with accurate translation and rightly divided [not twisting- it's critical information and part of God lifting the veil] can be reconciled with the above.  On the other hand, trying to make the above "fit" somehow with eternal death, IMO, just doesn't work.  

The thief comes to kill.  Jesus came to give life.

[LS]

In my opinion, all of those simply mean that no one is excluded - His sacrifice wasn't only for the jews or only for the levites or any one group - it was for all.

But I don't think that means "all" will receive it, nor do I don't think it translates into "all will be saved" or "the salvation of all men"  Nowhere does the Bible say those plainly.

Your reasoning might conclude that this result is "one step short of glory," but I think that is judging by your own understanding.

If God designed it this way - that those who are saved freely love Him and that those who aren't saved freely choose to reject Him - who are we to say that isn't 100% glorious because that was by His design?  Would it be to His glory that man is merely robotic? Does Love force itself on others?  It is surely a powerful force, but once again ... angels in His very presence, the presence of Love, deserted their domain.

[peacemaker]

Death and the thoughts of an underworld are cast out.

"You have rescued me from the depths of Hades."

peacemaker

[jabcat]

Dear LS.  Blessings to you.  You do appear quite committed to your position.  I believe God shows us what He wants us to see when it's our time.  My "own understanding"?  Perhaps.  Don't we all do that?  Are you included?   :bigGrin:

I personally still struggle with things, and He shows me just a little at a time.  I still have much veiledness.  I very much have a limit in struggling with people.  At some point, without God lifting the veil, none of us can see a thing.  So although I disagree with you in this particular matter, love and grace must still abound and prevail.  

Studying out the idea of people "rejecting" God vs. God's will being done, what "all" means in the scriptures [the All that died in Adam are the same ALL that are made alive in Jesus], and what the true end results of God's judgments are, can be really helpful if and when God grants vision.  I still have much to work on and see.  But I also disagree that things are simple/surface.  The scriptures themselves tell us that God conceals things, including Jesus not allowing most to understand what He was talking about at the time.  God's working a plan, and God's work is "of the ages" - and will be consummated with God being "all in some ALL".

I'm not told to "make people believe".  That's God's job.  So believe what you will until God shows you something different.  Again, I still personally have a long ways to go, have much to learn, and trust He'll keep showing me what He wants me to see whenever He gets me ready to see it.  

Still, I must do what we're told to do;  "We hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially [particularly, not exclusively] of those believing.   Charge these things and teach."  I Tim. 4:10,11.

[CHB]

In my opinion, all of those simply mean that no one is excluded - His sacrifice wasn't only for the jews or only for the levites or any one group - it was for all.

But I don't think that means "all" will receive it, nor do I don't think it translates into "all will be saved" or "the salvation of all men"  Nowhere does the Bible say those plainly.

Your reasoning might conclude that this result is "one step short of glory," but I think that is judging by your own understanding.

If God designed it this way - that those who are saved freely love Him and that those who aren't saved freely choose to reject Him - who are we to say that isn't 100% glorious because that was by His design?  Would it be to His glory that man is merely robotic? Does Love force itself on others?  It is surely a powerful force, but once again ... angels in His very presence, the presence of Love, deserted their domain.

Hi,

If Jesus sacrifice was for all, then all will have to be saved because Jesus didn't come here to half do his job.

I hear some people say that we have to choose Him or go to hell. That Jesus only died for those who will accept Him.  Well, I can just hear it now when everyone stands before God.  Some will say, "God, if I hadn't done this, or that, or agreed to accept your Son I would be in hell burning now. Thank God I was one of the smart ones and did what I was suppose to do. If it hadn't been for MY wisdom I wouldn't be here. Through my works I made it."

I can just hear God say, "depart from me I never knew you".
But they will know Him because that is what the second death is all about, realizing that self is nothing and can do nothing without God.

How can anyone freely love God with the threat of hell or eternal death hanging over their heads? How can anyone call that love? If I told my child that I was going to chop off his head if he didn't obey me, do you think I would gain any love from that child? Fear maybe, but not love.

God will show people how much he loves us and then people will love him back, "we love God because he first loved us". Everyone will come to love God after he shows himself as he is and the world realizes what they have been taught is not the character of God at all.

I have won friends that were enemies just by loving them and being good to them, by helping them in time of need. God will destroy his enemies by making them friends.

Now is not the time when all will receive Jesus and God didn't mean for all to understand his plan now, not that I know it all either. I, like jabcat said "have a lot to learn" but there is no way I, of myself can learn it, I am not that smart. If we knew it all we would boast that we saved ourselves by our knowledge, which some think they are going to anyway.

I hear all the time that God won't force himself on us. Tell me, what would be wrong with that if he did? Like you said "who are we to say it isn't 100% glorious if it was by his design". I choose robot anytime over a fiery furnace. I like robots, they usually are not argumentative nor do they start trouble, they do what they are told to do without a fear of starting a war. I will gladly be God's robot anyday.

Just my  :2c:

CHB

[shawn]

In my opinion, all of those simply mean that no one is excluded - His sacrifice wasn't only for the jews or only for the levites or any one group - it was for all.

But I don't think that means "all" will receive it, nor do I don't think it translates into "all will be saved" or "the salvation of all men"  Nowhere does the Bible say those plainly.

Your reasoning might conclude that this result is "one step short of glory," but I think that is judging by your own understanding.

If God designed it this way - that those who are saved freely love Him and that those who aren't saved freely choose to reject Him - who are we to say that isn't 100% glorious because that was by His design?  Would it be to His glory that man is merely robotic? Does Love force itself on others?  It is surely a powerful force, but once again ... angels in His very presence, the presence of Love, deserted their domain.

Yeah, sorta like if I set up a summer pot luck dinner for everyone in the church.  I came to feed everyone.  But, not everyone decided to partake.  This was the traditional teaching of these passages by my church of youth.

[CHB]

How many do you think would eat if they were starving, or realized they wouldn't ever have to eat or buy groceries anymore if they ate this meal?

CHB

[Molly]

^NAS1Co 15:55 "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"
^NASRev 20:14  And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

I've been thinking; it's not correct to say the death are in Hades because they are in the kingdom of Hades the Greek god of the underworld/death.

I think those verses are mocking the Greek concept of the underworld.

The question is: What in cast in LoF? Hades the god or Hades the kingdom?
It makes quite a difference imo.
If it speaks about the kingdom is solves nothing for this thread/discussion.
But what if it's Hades the god that's cast into LoF.
Back to my war example from my previous post.
Jesus has a kingdom. Hades has a kingdom. Both kingdoms have people in it.
Just like in regular war when on king conquers the other king both kingdoms, and everything in it, belong to the winner.
So in that view Jesus also owns all in Hades' kingdom. That would mean the dead are no longer dead.
:dontknow:

Revelation 1:18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


"keys"


G2807
κλείς
kleis
klice
From G2808; a key (as shutting a lock), literally or figuratively: - key.




G2808
κλείω
kleiō
kli'-o
A primary verb; to close (literally or figuratively): - shut (up).

[LS]

You do appear quite committed to your position.  I believe God shows us what He wants us to see when it's our time.  My "own understanding"?  Perhaps.  Don't we all do that?  Are you included?   :bigGrin:

Hi jabcat - I hadn't intended to post again but I wanted to apologize if I've been argumentative to you - I honestly never intended to be.  I wouldn't say I'm committed to my position, as much as I've been convicted of it. 

Shawn & I discussed in another thread a fear of being deceived, and I promise you that I pray daily for God to search me and to show me ... if He wants to replace my current understanding with US or ET or anything else, I sincerely pray I am completely open to hear Him and that I will surrender completely.  Until that time ... yes, I am confident in where He has led me right now.

You had a really excellent post in another thread about your belief in US and I appreciated it a lot. I may not agree with your conclusions, but I completely understand where you are coming from and I know you are sincere in seeing them in scripture.

I pray our Lord and our God pours out His blessings on each of you here at TM.  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

You do appear quite committed to your position.  I believe God shows us what He wants us to see when it's our time.  My "own understanding"?  Perhaps.  Don't we all do that?  Are you included?   :bigGrin:

Hi jabcat - I hadn't intended to post again but I wanted to apologize if I've been argumentative to you - I honestly never intended to be.  I wouldn't say I'm committed to my position, as much as I've been convicted of it. 

Shawn & I discussed in another thread a fear of being deceived, and I promise you that I pray daily for God to search me and to show me ... if He wants to replace my current understanding with US or ET or anything else, I sincerely pray I am completely open to hear Him and that I will surrender completely.  Until that time ... yes, I am confident in where He has led me right now.

You had a really excellent post in another thread about your belief in US and I appreciated it a lot. I may not agree with your conclusions, but I completely understand where you are coming from and I know you are sincere in seeing them in scripture.

I pray our Lord and our God pours out His blessings on each of you here at TM.  :HeartThrob:

Nothing to apologize for.  It's OK.  We're all where we are right now, and I believe God will bring each of us where He wants us - eventually for us, yet in His perfect timing.  God bless.   :bigGrin:

[shawn]

How many do you think would eat if they were starving, or realized they wouldn't ever have to eat or buy groceries anymore if they ate this meal?

CHB

None, if they didn't know they were starving or if they were hungry but didn't know food would satisfy.

[jabcat]

^NAS1Co 15:55 "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"
^NASRev 20:14  And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

So in that view Jesus also owns all in Hades' kingdom. That would mean the dead are no longer dead.
[/b] :dontknow:

Revelation 1:18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


"keys"


G2807
κλείς
kleis
klice
From G2808; a key (as shutting a lock), literally or figuratively: - key.




G2808
κλείω
kleiō
kli'-o
A primary verb; to close (literally or figuratively): - shut (up).

Keys to a lock serve another purpose as well.  In context, I don't believe the focus of this is death and captivity.  I believe it's just the opposite.  It's about life and freedom, that Jesus has the power.  He came back from hades holding those keys in victory.  That's why it's proclaimed "death where is your sting, grave where is your victory?".  Jesus overcame it.  The keys are to unlock as He chooses - as He leads captivity captive.

"I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hades and of death." ( Revelations 1:18 )

Jesus overcame all sin and death by his resurrection: "behold, I am alive for evermore."

Gee, I believe the focus here is Life.  :dsunny:

[Molly]

32And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

34And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

--Acts 13



Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


[shall not] "prevail against" [it]


G2729
κατισχύω
katischuō
kat-is-khoo'-o
From G2596 and G2480; to overpower: - prevail (against).



41Now therefore arise, O LORD God, into thy resting place, thou, and the ark of thy strength: let thy priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, and let thy saints rejoice in goodness.

--2 Chron 6

[thinktank]

I hear all the time that God won't force himself on us. Tell me, what would be wrong with that if he did? Like you said "who are we to say it isn't 100% glorious if it was by his design". I choose robot anytime over a fiery furnace. I like robots, they usually are not argumentative nor do they start trouble, they do what they are told to do without a fear of starting a war. I will gladly be God's robot anyday.

Just my  2c

CHB


be carefull what you ask for  :laughing7: